Pagan Christina Relationship

[Mina]

Today I went to a wedding for a friend of mine. I was debating whether to attend the church ceremony or not. I hadn't been inside a church....or around anything related to it..... since I was really young. I decided at the last minute that it was rather selfish of me to leave my friend when she asked for my support (she was so nervous!), so I attended. I am now completely amazed at the christian belief in general. Nearly every step of the ceremony was directly related to that of a pagan ritual. The first thing the priest did was ask 'the lord' to attend and give his blessing. From lighting the wedding candle, and exchanging vows, to the communion 'feast' after the vows...the ceremony followed ritual almost to the 't'! This really bothered me. How could a religious movement, which obviously has grounded roots in wiccan/pagan format, have such a hatred and lack of tolerance for the pagan beliefs? Perhaps the church denounces pagan beliefs so avidly just because they do not want anyone to see the obvious correlations. I don't know. The main room had a mural behind the altar. It was of fields of grain and grapes, and in place of the sun there was a figure of their god. With Lammas approaching, this rung a huge bell in my mind. The correlation between the sun and god....lets think...where have I heard that before? The communion chalices were silver and gold, holding the bread and wine respectively. All this was too familiar. Another thing that bothered me was that before the congregation would pray as a group, the priest would tell the group exactly what to say in response. He would literally stand there and say 'And you will respond by saying.....(whatever it is they say)!' This really opened my eyes. Seeing all of my friends and co-workers going along with every little thing the priest said as if they were dependent on the priests knowledge, made me realize that I am the exception. Almost everyone around me followed as if they were to be punished if they made a mistake. In my ceremonies and rituals, if you make a mistake, you laugh it off! There is much power in laughter. In a ritual you are there to celebrate and serve a purpose, not to be judged by a commanding god. So, I sat there, crying because I was so overwhelmingly happy for my friend, and spinning from what I had seen. I don't know if any of you have had similar experiences, but having not been in the church atmosphere for so long, I did not realize how similar the christian practice, that has long oppressed and killed thousands, is to my own practices, though they are to a different end. I know this is an age old complaint, but I had to do it somewhere! Thanks for hearing me out! Blessed be!

[EasternPriest]

Blessings to you Mina!

A couple of brief comments to possibly clear things up a little, maybe more detail later if you like:

The Chrsitian/Wiccan correlation isn't as set as it may at first appear. The Christian faith isn't neccessarily grounded in a wiccan/pagan format.

Many Christian Churches utilize a "liturgical" format for their worship. The liturgical format is ritualistic. The human race is ritualistic by nature. We each have daily rituals we perform in our lives, even the atheists.

The source of ritualistic concept in this case does not come from earth based religions, but from the books of the Old Testament.

"The lord" referred to in this case is very specifically Jesus the Nazareen, whom christians refer to as the Christ or Messiah. In the Old Testament, "The Lord" referred specifically to Yaweh, or God.

In the bread and wine used for Communion, Christians are reflecting on Jesus's commands made during the Last Supper. Jesus was a Rabbi, and during a Passover Seder meal with his apostles, he took the Jewish tradition and gave it new meaning.
Bread and wine, both at the alter, and in the mural, are reflective of that commandment.

Candle are used during the liturgy, much in the same way as lamps were used in the Temple in Jerusalem.

As far as the priest giving instructions...there was no potential "punishment" involved. At ceremonies such as weddings and funerals, it is common for the celebrant to provide some instruction, knowing that people from many faiths are present and may not know or understand the rituals and prayers being used. The instructions are meant to explain and illuminate, so that people don't feel excluded. There is nothing in them meant to be judging or condemming.

It is a tragedy that in the name of god, people of all religions have been responsible for oppression and killing.

Blessings....

[Myst]

I try to stay away from this subject as it can invariably lead to problems between Pagans and Christians. Too often the differences between Christians and Pagans is highlighed by Pagans, yet we all know Christians who are open-minded and accepting as well as non-Christians who are not. We must always remember not to judge the religion on some of its followers!

Recently I've attended a funeral for my aunt who to my knowledge wasn't even Christian. Yet her funeral undoubtedly was, and I was not stirred by the bible passages read or the prayers we shared. However, as many ceremonies are, this was meant to comfort and symbolize, regardless of words spoken or prayers made. I can honestly say I asked her God to lead her and help her find peace, as well as asking my own Gods to do the same. I've been at a few weddings wherein the same thing happen. Some of them would suggest their God exists and is only the one, but it is foolish for us to try to deny them that belief - just as foolish as it is for some of them to deny us our beliefs!

I understand truly how you feel, and why you wish to rant! In the end though I hope you can agree that its important to let others have their own way.

[pilvikki]

hmmm, this is a good one....
i must read different books from our priestly companion, as i have found an enormous amount of similarities between the christian and the pagan cultures.
and this from reading roman, greek and even egyptian mythologies.
the trinity f. ex, to pick an obvious one. from maiden, mother, crone we have father son and the holy ghost. [holy ghost? did we run out of ideas? what was wrong with grandpa?]
the crucifixion fits nicely w/old custom of sacrificing youth in the spring.
and what does the cross look like - if not a sword thrust into the earth over a fallen soldier's grave?
the personal arguement i have with many christian churches is how cruel it is, how controlling. how it denies joy and promotes guilt and subservience.
...none of which sit with my nature not well at all.

[Myst]

While the two religions may be similar in practice that does not necessarily mean one sprang from the other.

Somewhat similar to the fact that a man who has the same eye colour and nose as you may not be your father, or two movies produced by the same person may be far different. The fact that they are similar doesn't make one's existence rely on the other.

:)

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by pilvikki
hmmm, this is a good one....
i must read different books from our priestly companion, as i have found an enormous amount of similarities between the christian and the pagan cultures.
and this from reading roman, greek and even egyptian mythologies.
the trinity f. ex, to pick an obvious one. from maiden, mother, crone we have father son and the holy ghost. [holy ghost? did we run out of ideas? what was wrong with grandpa?]
the crucifixion fits nicely w/old custom of sacrificing youth in the spring.
and what does the cross look like - if not a sword thrust into the earth over a fallen soldier's grave?
the personal arguement i have with many christian churches is how cruel it is, how controlling. how it denies joy and promotes guilt and subservience.
...none of which sit with my nature not well at all.


I never said that parallels could not be drawn....but you can't draw cause and effect from them. Just because religions have similar rituals, etc...doesn't mean you can infer who took what from whom.

Maiden, mother, and crone don't neccessarily precede father, son,and holy ghost. In this particular instance, "ghost" comes from the Greek word pnuema (wind or breath), and not the English origin which implies a wraith.

There is also no solid evidence for the pre-patriarchal religions/societies being matriarchal. (Xois would be good to quiz about this particular subject.)

Crucifixion wasn't christian, it was Roman. It was a torture, not a sacrifice.

There are groups in every belief system that can be found to be controlling, pagans included. What an individual or group does ina controlling way does not speak against the tenets of the faith, it speaks against themselves.

So yes, you can read many books, and find many similarities, but that does not always mean you have discovered links.

Blessings....

[sherry]

In 1998 I took a course to become a Wedding Specialist. I found it very amazing that not only are the events very common at all types, but they each think they are the ones who came up with them!!

Most weddings I have been coordinator for have been done without them knowing my personal beliefs being common knowledge. I do not feel very comfortable in a traditional church setting, but can behave myself for short periods of time and like Mina I did not participate in the areas not to my own personal belief. I only tried to explain my absence by the fact that I was working this wedding. Most of what I did was to get the Wedding Party down the isle on time and to the Reception on time. My meetings prior to the Event were at times by the book, trying to explain the events to the Bride and Groom from the books! When it came to the church things we made lists for them to ask the preacher prior and during the classes most made manditory.

The Unity candle is by far my favorite part of the events because of the family participation. When the parents light the candle in honor of their family then the couple use that candle to unite the binding of the 2 families as one this is a universal religious binding and to me is as important as the vows the couple exchange. In the Catholic service this was not always the way it was done but one even the priest changed his mind and allowed.
I talked to them and then it was done my way!! As the Mothers are seated they are first taken up to light their candle then seated!!

OOPS rambling again so sorry just my 2 cents!!

[MammaStar]

I recently went to a wedding held in a catholic church too. The only thing that struck me was that I forgot to remove my pentacle! Now, I am proud to be who I am, it's just that I didn't feel like ruining my boyfriend's friend's wedding day. During one point, I quickly slipped off my necklace. My boyfriend thought I worried needlessly, and maybe I did, but I didn't want to cause any trouble on what was a most beautiful day.

The only similarities I've ever notice, right off the bat. Was Easter. Which is why I don't have much of a problem combing the holidays with my own beliefs and my families.

[Myst]

I accidentally wore my pentacle during the funeral as well. When I realized it I almost removed it, but then decided there was no need. My family are all open minded and know about my choices, and my cousin and her husband who are also openly Pagan were both there as well. If I had been asked to remove it (although I don't know why anyone would, except maybe the priest) I would've merely to refrain from causing problems at an occasion at where none were needed.

The wedding thing is interesting. My family knows very well my and my fiance's beliefs but when I mentioned I wasn't getting married in a church my dad tried convincing me to get married in a united church as they did. Then when I got that out of his mind he decided he thought we should marry at the community center in my hometown. Evidently, regardless of your religion, your parents are still going to want to muck about in your plans a bit 8O

[Mina]

To clarify a bit..... I was not meaning to say that one religion copied the other. I simply was pointing out that there are many simularities. I have been recieving much flack as of late from my christian friends and family due to my beliefs. I've heard everything from "your practices are evil" to "leave my house before your presence curses it to hell!" This coming from the very people who worship in the same way I do, just with different beliefs. My grandmother has become avidly christian in the past few years, and after being put through sunday school as a child, I know the basic reasoning behind all of the christian symbolism. And I believe that if ceremonies such as the wedding and funeral make people feel better and happy, than go for it....whatever works for that person. One the other hand, the christian ceremonies do not work for me, so I choose not to participate. I was just very angry at the fact that people around my shun me with no idea that the religions have some basic links. I read somewhere that the rings had pagan symblism. Is there a christian reasoning between the exchange of rings? I just don't know. If someone could tell me, it would be great. Everyone likes to believe that they are right in what they are doing, and that they are on the right path. I am just sick of being told that I am wrong by people who have no reasoning behind it. Here I go complaining again!