Cain and slurs toward Gypsies

[TYRRHENUS]

Hello all.
I am finding a number of sites which equate Gypsies to the story of Cain.

Does anybody know anything about this? If so, I have a few questions:
Where does this association with Cain come from?
How far back does this reference to Cain go?
What is the biblical relationship (if any) between Herodias and Cain?
What literary slurs have been used toward Gypsies?

Many thanks.

[Calyx]

Hey hon! :) I have some info for you, and a couple of explanations too. Bear with me here, in case I get confused.... This is assuming that the bible is mostly correct also for these explanations.....

These first two links are in regards to the history of the Romany people. Although Cain was cursed by God to wander forever after murdering his brother Abel, his bloodline was wiped out with the flood of Noah. The second link talks about the origin of the name cain, which apparently means some sort of metalworker. Apparently another biblical character was thought to be named cain as well, and then there is the suggestion that cain is a title, such as pharoah.

http://www.domresearchcenter.com/journal/11/kenrick11.html
http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/stories/rsmith/index_cain.htm

As to the relationship between Herodias and Cain, I don't believe the two are related. Some literature links the two names together because Cain's anger allowed him to slay his brother Abel, and Herodias' anger allowed her to convince her daughter Salome to ask King Herod for John the Baptist's head on a platter as a reward for her dancing. Herodias had previously been married to Herod's brother Phillip. But Herodias and Herod fancied each other, so Herod took her away from Phillip. John the Baptist condemned this action and Herodias was furious. So she got even, just as Cain did.

The link below is another story that apparently pops up frequently in Italian witchcraft regarding Aradia. It implies that Herodias and Aradia are the same person. However, it also says that Aradia/Herodias will never be a child of Cain. It would probably be better if you read that one yourself! :lol:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/aradia/ara18.htm


This last one has to do with the Romany people and persecution/slurs, etc. Actually, if you click on home at the end of this, the whole website is devoted to the Romany people and there is waaaayyy large amounts of info. Quite frankly, my eyes glazed and I gave up the search after this one.

Enjoy and hope this helps. As always, I enjoyed this question! :)
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/mythandreality.htm

[Calyx]

Forgot to say that the two are probably compared so much because Cain was cursed to wander by God as punishment. The gypsies have always been a nomadic type of people. It's easy to see how the two could be compared together.....

[TYRRHENUS]

There's that "wandering forever" reference again.
I find it curious that Leland uses the same adjective to describe "Maddelena" in his appendix.

Those articles clear things up. Especially this reference:
The companies that arrived in Western Europe in the 14th century said they had come from Little Egypt - an area in Greece - and this became confused with Egypt itself. The migration of the Gypsies became confused with that of the Israelites.
You rock! :)

[Calyx]

No, you rock!!;)

As I said before, I really enjoy your questions. I haven't thought much about they gypsies before, but all of your other stuff I have at least wondered about myself.

BTW, this makes me wonder....what exactly was the mark of Cain? do you know?

[TYRRHENUS]

what exactly was the mark of Cain? do you know?Hmmmm... I think this is it:
Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me." Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall he taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him. Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod [which means "the land of wandering"], east of Eden." {Gen 4:14-16 RSV}Here (http://www.pbc.org/dp/stedman/genesis/0322.html) is the source.
So I guess "the Lord" put some sort of mark on Cain, real or proverbial, that would keep Cain alive, and live another day wtih the same of killing his brother. What a horrible story.