A Nation of Cheaters?

[Desdemona]

I was just reading a thread in the magic section, regarding the outcome of a certain money spell. I was amazed at the dichotomy of answers, and since I am reading this book, "The Cheating Culture" for work, I thought wow! How timely!

http://www.cheatingculture.com/

Some of the posters even suggested that we not even bother with "harm none" and other protections during spell casting, saying that the universe will sort it all out. To me that sounds a bit cavelier, but that's just me.

After 9/11, a credit union lost contact with NYSE, and could not track ATM withdrawals. They had a choice to make. They could shut everything down until the link was re-established, which would take weeks, thereby cutting off families from their money, families who probably lost someone in the disaster, or--they could leave the ATM's active, and trust people to use their ATM cards responsibly. The director decided to leave the ATMs active. What do you think happened?

Is it o.k. to stick it to the big companies?

What would you do?

[Valnorran]

Well, if the customers knew the ATMs couldn't be tracked, I'd expect them to take full adbantage of it. If they didn't know, they'd just keep humming along as usual. Is it o.k. to stick it to big companies? well, I probably wouldn't try it for two reasons. First, I'd probably get caught and the rewards are far outweighed by the risks. Second, in sticking it to the big company, some poor working stiff low on the totem pole is likely to end up paying for my little crime.

[Felidae]

I agree with Valnorran - even if it's not you directly, someone is going to pay in the end. Look at what shoplifting has done to retail prices.

[Riven]

Shoplifting has had little or no effect on retail prices. Greed has. Shoplifting hasn't caused companies to move their factories from the U.S. to foreign countries, paying their workers about 10% of what the American employees were being paid, and then have the nerve to RAISE their prices. Shoplifting isn't putting the U.S. steel industry out of business. Shoplifting hasn't caused college tuition to increase at 7 times the rate of inflation.

[Felidae]

Shoplifting has had little or no effect on retail prices. Greed has. Shoplifting hasn't caused companies to move their factories from the U.S. to foreign countries, paying their workers about 10% of what the American employees were being paid, and then have the nerve to RAISE their prices. Shoplifting isn't putting the U.S. steel industry out of business. Shoplifting hasn't caused college tuition to increase at 7 times the rate of inflation.
All True.

But it has made that hella loud buzzer at the door go off when the scan isn't properly deactivated, even when I've paid for the CD! :lol:

Then again, the point is most stores have a stupid buzzer at the door because of sticky fingers, and I can bet I helped pay for it somewhere along the line.

[sweet nothings]

I don't believe stealing is wrong in any light because of what it can do to other people....I am not here to say that I am perfect in any sense, but I would never steal. The guilt would ride me until I broke down or I would be too paraniod to get caught. It would also lean on the fact that I hate hurting anybody for any reason except to defend myself. It's too bad that there are people in this world that believe whatever reason they're stealing is reason enough because I could probably name someone who has it 10 times worse than they do...Oh well....

[Phoenix Blue]

Shoplifting has had little or no effect on retail prices.
Of course it has. Businesses consider it a business expense, just like they consider paying rent and electricity bills. They do what they can to minimize the cost of shrink, as it's called in the retail market, but to say that it has little or no effect is ludicrous. Do you think the stolen products just replace themselves, at no cost to the company? Or do you think that the company replaces stolen goods and eats the cost?

Here's a question for you: Do you consider stealing wrong if someone steals property from your house? If so, then why would you not consider it wrong if someone steals property from a large (or small) business? What's the difference, aside from the lame justification that the business can afford to be stolen from?

[stormyray]

Here's a question for you: Do you consider stealing wrong if someone steals property from your house? If so, then why would you not consider it wrong if someone steals property from a large (or small) business? What's the difference, aside from the lame justification that the business can afford to be stolen from?



Well said !!!! *applause*

[zakzekezedd]

hmmm..regrettably, there are a lot of people--young and old--who seem to have to have utterly no qualms about stealing. They see something they want, so they steal it--from a business, from a friend's house, from someone's parked car. Heartbreaking as it may be, we have apprehended kids as young as 7 or 8 stealing merchandise. They saw it, they wanted it, and they couldn't conceive that it could possibly be wrong to just take it..after all, that's what Mom does. (I think the police officer was almost in tears on that one..) The myth that shoplifting is a "victimless" crime is a lovely rationalization to make doing something illegal seem "OK". Price increases aren't the only impact on a business from shoplifting losses. It can also impact how many people the business is able to employ, and how much they are able to pay. Shoplifting can cost a store that sales CDs or Video games an average of $1200 a month. That's lost revenue that might have gone to employees as wages, that might have been spent in the local economy, and ultimately, that might have meant that YOU got that job you had been hoping for but didn't get after all.

[Riven]

I didn't say it wasn't wrong. Don't put words in my mouth (keyboard, whatever).

OK, if it wasn't for theft, I'd probably be paying 64 cents for a candy bar instead of 69 cents. And if it wasn't for the innate greed of corporate America, I'd be paying about 30 cents for it.

[Desdemona]

Q. What do you mean by "cheating?"

A. I look at otherwise law-abiding people who break the rules to get ahead financially or in their careers. A lot of these same people would never think of stealing a candy bar from a store. My book doesn’t deal with infidelity in relationships or corruption by public officials. Those topics have gotten lots of attention elsewhere and, anyway, the evidence suggests that it’s only cheating for private gain where things have gotten worse.

Q. What are some examples of cheating?

A. Just pick up any newspaper. A major steroid scandal recently hit baseball and has caught up sluggers like Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi. Big mutual funds are under fire for unfair practices that hurt ordinary investors. Subpoenas are flying as the record industry goes after music pirates. The pharmaceutical giant Pfizer is fighting government charges that one of its subsidiaries bribed doctors to prescribe the drug Neurontin. Jayson Blair is only latest reporter to have been caught making stuff up. Students are cheating like crazy, even at places like Yale. The list goes on and on.

That's a quote from the author of the book I'm reading. He says we live in a "winner take all" society, and that the pressure to cut corners is tremendous. Basically, if you aren't doing it too, you'll just get beat out by the ones who are. Is anyone else encountering this? I feel lucky enough to not have been forced to make a choice like this to keep my job (so far) but the thought is scary. It does seem to be the way things are now. What do you all think?

[Hoot]

What do you all think?

I think I want to read this book - it sounds good. Yes, I agree it seems we're continually facing situations where we feel we should "cut corners."

[Riven]

OK, you guys are right. The guy who can't get welfare because the old, white, male republicans think a man should be able to raise a family of three on a $13,000/yr income is a jackass because he stole some food for his family, but the guy sitting in his leather chair paging one of his three personal assistants who sets the prices for the food which allows him to live that lifestyle is a-ok.

[Kaylara]

You know, I agree with you Riven, if for no other reason then I know how much Retail marks up their prices as opposed to what they pay. I understand that they have quite a bit of overhead, but the markup on some things is insanely huge...

[WandererInGray]

OK, you guys are right. The guy who can't get welfare because the old, white, male republicans think a man should be able to raise a family of three on a $13,000/yr income is a jackass because he stole some food for his family,


Riiiiiight....because how often does that Robin Hood fantasy happen in the real world?

I don't recall reading anyone saying that the "guy in the leather chair" was a-ok.

Retail is simple economics. As long as the public keeps paying high prices for the items, the companies will continue to sell them at said prices.

It's not just about the cost of the items being sold. There's building rent, electricity, water, employee salaries, 401k, health insurance, unemployment insurance, workman's comp insurance, and let's not forget the taxes....sales, state, federal, FICA....the list goes on and on and on.

[Pesha]

Overhead is what kills you in retail. Gosh that isa all I can think of to say.....hmmmmm

BB
DS.

[~ Monk ~]

*Contemplates what he's read as he drinks his $1.39 cup of coffee*

I can see both sides. On the one hand, this cup of coffee is grossly overpriced. But then, in my desperation to wake up, I forked over the $1.39 and bought it.

Yeah, so - I guess I should just shut up now...:gagged:

[Riven]

Riiiiiight....because how often does that Robin Hood fantasy happen in the real world?

I don't recall reading anyone saying that the "guy in the leather chair" was a-ok.

Retail is simple economics. As long as the public keeps paying high prices for the items, the companies will continue to sell them at said prices.

It's not just about the cost of the items being sold. There's building rent, electricity, water, employee salaries, 401k, health insurance, unemployment insurance, workman's comp insurance, and let's not forget the taxes....sales, state, federal, FICA....the list goes on and on and on.

I know, I was in retail management for 5 years. Truth is, our profit margin from fuel alone was enough to cover all overhead. The manufacturers and retailers screw you over worse than any thief ever possibly could.

[Aidron]

1.) I would not 'stick-it' to big companies in this sense. If I knew the ATM machines could be easily abused, I would not take advantage of it for the simple fact that I want to know all I have is what I earned. I don't care if it's living on the street or in a mansion, I want to know I am where I am because of what I did without deception.

2.) Not adding 'harm none' to spells in assuming the universe will work it out is reasonable. Nature (i.e. the universe) will maintain a balance on its own. We can strive for balance or against it, but the universe will enforce that balance regardless. I never had 'harm none' or 'for the good of all' to any ritual, spell, or magical project. My intent is not to harm anyone, and my magic is 99.9% based upon my intent. It might not be as such for others, but for me it is.

3.) I 'stick-it' to companies in my own way, without resorting to cheating. I refuse to buy their products, or inform others when I feel a company is grossly out of line. The solutions for retribution are endless without resorting to thievery and deception.

[Hoot]

It's not just about the cost of the items being sold. There's building rent, electricity, water, employee salaries, 401k, health insurance, unemployment insurance, workman's comp insurance, and let's not forget the taxes....sales, state, federal, FICA....the list goes on and on and on.

The costs of employees and systems in research and development, production, of buying and maintaining all types of equipment, of transportation and fuel for distribution, of warehousing, of advertising, packaging, of lawyers to CYA every step along the way, of government subsidies that control markets - you're right - on and on... Today's markets can be incredibly complicated.


but the guy sitting in his leather chair paging one of his three personal assistants who sets the prices for the food which allows him to live that lifestyle is a-ok.

Riven, I realize it's very popular now to draw and quarter corporations and make them the deepest source of evil in the world, but your image of the food industry fat cat is unrealistic enough that it's like something from James Bond.

In some industries (food sales in particular because of the extremely competitive nature of that market, so it's funny to me that Riven mentioned it), the mark-up is not even close to what one finds in, say, the clothing industry. In addition, that particular industry faces shrinkage that other industries don't - through perishability. In fact, the overall mark-up in the food industry is small, and compared to production and sales costs, is often just a few cents on each item. So theft does hurt - the businesses and industry itself - and all of us as consumers. We pay for it, and the prevention systems that retailers buy to control it.

Prices are often set by what the market will bear - but don't think we aren't paying for the added costs of theft.

Monk, yeh, you paid for it, so that cup must be worth it to you - right now anyway. At Starbucks, for instance, you're primarily paying for employee service and atmosphere - and not the coffee itself. Have you ever stopped to really consider all the people who made that cup of coffee possible, and what their costs are in bringing it to you? Once you do, you might discover it's not so overpriced.

[Hoot]

3.) I 'stick-it' to companies in my own way, without resorting to cheating. I refuse to buy their products, or inform others when I feel a company is grossly out of line. The solutions for retribution are endless without resorting to thievery and deception.

Absolutely, and I feel that's the right and best way to go about it. If a company is out of line, expose that and let the market and its consumers deal with it!

Don't steal from it because you "feel" cheated by it. Even if they are wrong, to my mind, "two wrongs don't make a right."

[~ Monk ~]

Monk, yeh, you paid for it, so that cup must be worth it to you - right now anyway. At Starbucks, for instance, you're primarily paying for employee service and atmosphere - and not the coffee itself. Have you ever stopped to really consider all the people who made that cup of coffee possible, and what their costs are in bringing it to you? Once you do, you might discover it's not so overpriced.
I hear you, Hoot. Of course, I picked mine up at Dunkin Donuts so it definitely wasn't atmosphere or service I was paying for. ;)

I've read a bit about the coffee industry and remain convinced that coffee is, for the most part, overpriced - even if you factor in the extras (and let's not forget about the trendiness factor). At least, I feel it's overpriced if you buy it by the cup.

But I digress!

[Riven]

Do you people actually read and comprehend stuff, or just type to read your own posts?

How can I make this any more clear? I NEVER SAID THAT THEFT HAS NOT CAUSED AN INCREASE IN RETAIL PRICES. I repeat: I NEVER SAID THAT THEFT HAS NOT CAUSED AN INCREASE IN RETAIL PRICES.

What I have said is that the increase caused by theft is trivial compared to the percentage of the price that large corporations put directly into their pockets.

And the "guy in the leather chair" was a metaphor.

[Riven]

Info from BP's website:

Revenues $179 billion

Capital expenditure
(excl. acquisitions) $13.3 billion

I worked for BP. They include all product loss, whether by theft, damage, or expiration, in their expenditures.

[Hoot]

Do you people actually read and comprehend stuff, or just type to read your own posts?

How can I make this any more clear? I NEVER SAID THAT THEFT HAS NOT CAUSED AN INCREASE IN RETAIL PRICES. I repeat: I NEVER SAID THAT THEFT HAS NOT CAUSED AN INCREASE IN RETAIL PRICES.

What I have said is that the increase caused by theft is trivial compared to the percentage of the price that large corporations put directly into their pockets.

And the "guy in the leather chair" was a metaphor.

Riven, the issue of theft was brought up by others here, so I discussed it. Sorry, but "we people" don't always discuss things simply on your terms, if that's okay with you... :lol:

The metaphor you provided didn't make sense to me, which was my point, if you "actually read and comprehend stuff" (your words). If you're upset at the oil industry's prices, then why blame it on someone who "sets the prices for food"? Those industries generally only mesh in such a way that the oil company would set food prices for their own convenience stores - where food is more often than not just a draw to sell gas, liquor and tobacco (the most profitable items). Maybe my problem in this conversation is that I'm just being too specific in wanting to pin down the problem, and to not simply use a broadbrush to tar all corporations. I just don't see them all, or profits, as inherently evil.

It still comes back to another point - if you don't like it, expose it. Boycott it. But cheating or stealing (the topic of this thread) - justified as an attempt to settle the score - is still wrong, imo.

[Riven]

Riven, the issue of theft was brought up by others here, so I discussed it. Sorry, but "we people" don't always discuss things simply on your terms, if that's okay with you... :lol:

Who were you talking to, then? The only person who said anything even relatively close to "stealing is OK because corporations are greedy" is me, who said that stealing wasn't as bad as corporate greed. But, if you'd rather turn your mistake into an attempt to ridicule someone than own up to it, that's fine with me.


The metaphor you provided didn't make sense to me, which was my point, if you "actually read and comprehend stuff" (your words). If you're upset at the oil industry's prices, then why blame it on someone who "sets the prices for food"? Those industries generally only mesh in such a way that the oil company would set food prices for their own convenience stores - where food is more often than not just a draw to sell gas, liquor and tobacco (the most profitable items). Maybe my problem in this conversation is that I'm just being too specific in wanting to pin down the problem, and to not simply use a broadbrush to tar all corporations. I just don't see them all, or profits, as inherently evil.

Well, you apparently didn't understand the metaphor because I'm talking about the retail industry in general, not the petroleum industry specifically or the grocery industry specifically. I never said profits were evil, either. Profits are capitalism. Profits are what drive this country. Asking unreasonable prices for products in order to obtain exhorbitant profits isn't "evil" either (I don't believe in the concepts of good and evil), but it sure as hell isn't how I believe things should be run.

[Hoot]

Who were you talking to, then?

Desdemona, Felidae, sweetnothing, Monk, PB, Wanderer, RavenWindsong, the others discussing this, and you as well. Others addressed your view, and I simply added my opinion to theirs. To tell you the truth, until you last responded (in post 23), I didn't think of my posts as specifically addressing you (until my last post before this one), except for what I see as an ill-chosen "metaphor" which involved setting food prices.

Perhaps it's best to put one another on ignore so Desdemona's discussion isn't further derailed, since this is an interesting topic.

[WandererInGray]

At Starbucks, for instance, you're primarily paying for employee service and atmosphere - and not the coffee itself. Have you ever stopped to really consider all the people who made that cup of coffee possible, and what their costs are in bringing it to you? Once you do, you might discover it's not so overpriced.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Starbucks is involved in purchasing coffee from growers who are working on sustainable practices, like shade-tree coffee, they also donate a great deal of time and money to coffee growers in regions like South America. So sometimes purchasing a higher priced produced isn't only about the product you're getting....it's about the contributions that the company may be making with your money.

Just one of the reasons I'm willing to spend $2+ on a cup of coffee from Starbucks instead of a cheaper variety from the gas station.....the other would be I'm a coffee snob. :D

[Hoot]

Actually, if I recall correctly, Starbucks is involved in purchasing coffee from growers who are working on sustainable practices, like shade-tree coffee, they also donate a great deal of time and money to coffee growers in regions like South America. So sometimes purchasing a higher priced produced isn't only about the product you're getting....it's about the contributions that the company may be making with your money.

A very good point, and it's one way I choose how I give business to various companies and individuals, too (shopping for toiletries at Amanda Roddick's company The Body Shop for years, for instance). It seems this practice is growing among consumers, which I consider heartening. I heard on NPR a few months ago that there are even mutual funds based on "green companies." Many of the items these companies produce and sell are more expensive, but their quality is often superior, and I admire their ethos.

[Felidae]

I have never worked in retail a day in my life, but I do realize that when our suppliers prices increase, so then do our prices increase. That's the catch 22 of our economy. And I still maintain that theft does add to the increase of end-user prices, albeit slightly.

However, if one takes advantage of an establishment with theivery, petty or not, whether said establishment is perceived as a corporate vampire or not, how then can one damn them. After all, would'nt you just be sinking to their (assumed) level?

[~ Monk ~]

Actually, if I recall correctly, Starbucks is involved in purchasing coffee from growers who are working on sustainable practices, like shade-tree coffee, they also donate a great deal of time and money to coffee growers in regions like South America. So sometimes purchasing a higher priced produced isn't only about the product you're getting....it's about the contributions that the company may be making with your money.

Just one of the reasons I'm willing to spend $2+ on a cup of coffee from Starbucks instead of a cheaper variety from the gas station.....the other would be I'm a coffee snob. :D
Ah - that cool.

I tend to not buy Starbucks coffee because...I just don't like it. :D

[Desdemona]

I think I want to read this book - it sounds good. Yes, I agree it seems we're continually facing situations where we feel we should "cut corners."

Here ya go hun http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151010188/qid=1076989886/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-8483605-6482246

[Desdemona]

1.) I would not 'stick-it' to big companies in this sense. If I knew the ATM machines could be easily abused, I would not take advantage of it for the simple fact that I want to know all I have is what I earned. I don't care if it's living on the street or in a mansion, I want to know I am where I am because of what I did without deception.


Raven, you are on exactly the right track. The author would call you a "hero."


Many of us won't give in to pressures to cheat even when we perceive that everyone else does it. We'll study harder to outdo the cheating students, or train more fanatically to beat the athletes on drugs, or simply make a point of living our lives in more ethical arenas. But all this means playing by our own rules, rather than the prevailing rules, and making life harder in the process. It means being a hero. It's easier to just go along with the cheating culture.

I end my book by advising people to be a hero -- or even a chump -- to try to reverse the vicious cycle that occurs in a cheating culture. If you don't cheat and I don't cheat, than "everybody" doesn't actually cheat. There can be virtuous cycles as well as vicious cycles. Positive norms can spread as rapidly as negatives ones. --David Callahan

[pawnman]

I think we all face these pressures, and it's a measure of your character when you decide that you will take a stand and not cut corners. I am still young, and not yet involved in the corporate scheme of things (as yet, I am but a lowly peon, job grade 15). But I hope to achieve that high corporate standing, and I hope to do it without cutting corners...well, at least not any ETHICAL corners. It's one thing to cut corners, it's another to cheat, I think.

As for the people (not just Riven, people in general) who think corporations are evil for turning a profit, well, welcome to capitalism, folks. Adam Smith told us about this over 200 years ago. As long as Wal-Mart and Meijer's compete, prices will be lower than if one had a monopoly. Sure, sometimes they overcharge for certain items, but they do that to make up for the thinner margins on other items. And also keep in mind, these corporations exist SOLEY for the purpose of making money. Are you surprised that they try to turn a profit? There's tremendous pressure from the shareholders to earn just one more penny per share this quarter, earn one more dollar per share this year.

Also, keep in mind that corporations are not mindless, evil entities. A corporation is really nothing more than a collection of people like you and me.

[Nevwyn]

Interestingly enough, this very sort of dilema happened to my husband and I a couple of weeks ago. We called our bank to check our balance and found roughly $300.00 more in there than we expected. It took nearly an hour to convince the bank that something was wrong in the first place and another 2 hours to track it down. It seems that someone else's deposit had been mistakenly credited to our account. It could have belonged to someone with hundreds of thousands of dollars in their account or it could be someone's rent money. The principle is the same. Thankfully we got everything straightened out and the money was deposited in the rightful owner's account.

I've been on all sides of this spectrum. Consumer, retail manager, I even owned my own business for a while. There's simply no good reason to 'stick it' to big business. Raven WindSong has the right of it. If you don't like a company, don't buy their products and let others know why you feel that they're a bad company. The person that stealing hurts the most is the thief.

[Riven]

I think we all face these pressures, and it's a measure of your character when you decide that you will take a stand and not cut corners. I am still young, and not yet involved in the corporate scheme of things (as yet, I am but a lowly peon, job grade 15). But I hope to achieve that high corporate standing, and I hope to do it without cutting corners...well, at least not any ETHICAL corners. It's one thing to cut corners, it's another to cheat, I think.

As for the people (not just Riven, people in general) who think corporations are evil for turning a profit, well, welcome to capitalism, folks. Adam Smith told us about this over 200 years ago. As long as Wal-Mart and Meijer's compete, prices will be lower than if one had a monopoly. Sure, sometimes they overcharge for certain items, but they do that to make up for the thinner margins on other items. And also keep in mind, these corporations exist SOLEY for the purpose of making money. Are you surprised that they try to turn a profit? There's tremendous pressure from the shareholders to earn just one more penny per share this quarter, earn one more dollar per share this year.

Also, keep in mind that corporations are not mindless, evil entities. A corporation is really nothing more than a collection of people like you and me.

I never said profits were evil, and I don't need to be "welcomed" to capitalism.

A collection of people like you and me? Only if you and me got a couple mill in the bank.

[Aidron]

Raven, you are on exactly the right track. The author would call you a "hero."

--David Callahan


Well I would not deem myself a hero in the least, and I do not mean to sound modest. I simply prefer to know where I am is because of my own bad choices or good choices that were entirely honest.

Am I without cable because I forgot to pay the bill? That's fine. It's my own fault, but I am most fascinated by how things turn out. I enjoy seeing how things unfold one step at a time, rather than shooting for an end result, cause if you spend your entire life shooting for something you may never enjoy what you currently have.

I believe firmly in the following quote:

"Morality, by whatever standards it may follow, is what you do when no one else is looking."

The same can be said of many things. What you do when it is only you shows conviction. I've seen people who attempt to live this quote out, then go about bragging what they did or did not do when no one else was looking. By bragging you are in a sense incooperating others into the mold. You only did or did not do what was in question so you could brag, so others were watching.

[pawnman]

Riven, just because the highest echelons have millions doesn't mean every person in the company does. Heck, the guy setting prices at your local grocery is probably the store manager, and he probably doesn't clear $40,000 a year.

[zakzekezedd]

I applaude the wisdom of Raven WindSong's post. Ultimately we have to accept responsibility for our choices, even if it is highly unlikely that another living soul will know about that choice or the outcome. Hopefully I'll manage to make more good decisions, and to do more things right than the other way around. Either way, I have to live with the consequences of my choices and actions. Many writers and observers of the "human state" have commented on the amazing flexability of morality. People wouldn't dream of taking something from a friend's home, but can justify taking something from a business establishment for all or at least some of the reasons already stated in this thread. Employees who would never steal from another business establishment will steal from their employer under the guise of "being owed" it. Honesty is talked about, and bragged about in many forums. Whatever else is said or done, the individual is the one who has to decide for themself what is and isn't an acceptable standard of behavior. The noblest spirits among us are those who hold up the highest standard of conduct whether anyone is watching or not. They live their truth everyday without fanfare or ado because it is not in their character to do any less. The world would be a better place if more of us aspired to follow their lead.