How old is Wicca?

[PrairieChild]

I've had this discussion so many times on other forums, and I'm just curious to see how many of you believe that Wicca is a modern religion (as I do), or if you think it is ancient.

Thanks! :)

[Hoot]

I see Wicca as a modern religion.

[Galaxia]

Ω

[Xentor]

Gerald Gardner started Wicca last century, although he claims to have based it on older tradition. Problem is, there seems to be hardly any written history of those older traditions.

[Heathen Dawn]

A 60 year old synthesis of neopaganism with ceremonial magic. Not to denigrate it, just a fact.

[ambermystique]

I agree with Gardner when he said that he based Wicca on an older tradition (way older). However, there is NO written proof of such a tradition. However, many Christians would find it hard to believe certain things if the Bible wasn't around. Right? Maybe they didn't write things down their rituals or traditions because of fear of persecution? Who knows? Its a possibility...


ambermystique

[Equinox]

Wicca has some ancient parts (such as finding the solstices and equinoxes spiritually significant, which it appears some neolithic people did as well), and it has a lot of modern additions, such as the ceremonies and such.

This is true of most religions. Many parts of Christianity are new as well. For instance, the well known "cast the first stone" story was added to the Bible in the middle ages, and even the new testament itself didn't get into final form until the 5th century.

All religions are "made up" in the sense that they start with some ideas, and other ideas accrete onto them over time. Though many of Wicca's additions are more recent than some other religions, all religions share this slow process. :)

-Equinox

[Romani Vixen]

I agree with pretty much everyone. *Neo*-Pagan religion... with ancient roots. Just how much of those ancient roots are evident in the modern religion, I couldn't say.

[DebLipp]

Wicca is a modern combination of some very ancient stuff, some not so ancient stuff, and some modern stuff. Gardner's version of Wicca had virtually no contents that were uniquely modern, but the combination was unique and new. Since the 1930s when Gardner started, a great deal that is modern has been added.

[Isil Darkmoon]

To me, Wicca itself is a modern religion that borrows ideas or practices from much older backgrounds, whether they be religions, traditions, practices, etc.

[CelestiaSynth]

Wicca ( as a loosely-based whole ) is modern. The practices and principles most Wiccans follow are of ancient origin.

[Mithrea]

I see Wicca as a modern religion.


Ditto :)

[Erincelt]

I agree with most that Wicca is a young thing, coming into the end of its sixth decade... however, I don't personally 100% discount Gardner's claim. And here is why...

Dorothy Clutterbuck did indeed exist, that much we know for sure, although its highly doubted she had any involvement with anything of the sort Gardner might have claimed. However, its possible her identity was half-concealed because she was being used as a masque to fully conceal the identity of another person.

Gardner's known connection to the Ordo Templi Orientis comes to mind... could the "older traditions" he drew from be the Ceremonial schools he had previously followed?

Gardner studied Malaysian culture, could some of the "older traditions" be from there? Could the prominance of the Athame be due to his study of the kris knife?

I think you get the idea... A literally ancient, Murray-esque, witch-religion? No way. Some very real bits of old belief, magical lodges, and folk practices? Very likely, almost definitely. My thoughts on the matter anyhow.

[Alexandra Asinine]

I believe it to be modern. However, here is an interesting analysis of one of Gardner's claims that indicates great influence from the past.

http://www.newwiccanchurch.net/gerald_laws.htm

[Ash StormRaven]

Wicca is a "modern" religion dating back to the 60's, but it was most likely around for longer. Paganism, on the other hand, is one of the oldest religions known to man, outdating christianity by some 10,000 years or more.

[Galaxia]

Ω

[Ben Trismegistus]

Wicca was "launched" in 1948, through a series of press releases and media appearances by Gerald Gardner. While Gardner claims to have been initiated by "Old Dorothy" in the 1930s, there's no evidence to show that this was actually true.

Regardless, as a modern religion, Wicca was born in 1948 and grew in the 1950s through the added liturgy of Doreen Valiente.

[Aidron]

As it has been stated, Wicca is not an old religion, only officially existing in the sense that we now know it for a few decades.

Paganism, however, is 'not' a religion. It is a classification, consisting of many nature based traditions. It in and of itself is not a specific path or faith.

[Ben Gruagach]

I personally think that Wicca was pretty much the invention of Gerald Gardner. Despite that, I don't doubt that there were people who practiced folk magick, and perhaps even practiced Pagan faiths in the UK prior to Gerald Gardner's time. The question is whether any of those who practiced folk magick called themselves witches or not. Many seemed to have preffered the titles of wise man or woman, cunning man or woman, or almost anything other than witch. And those who practiced Pagan faiths were just as often to be practicing reconstructions of what they thought those Pagan faiths were like rather than an authentic survival. It's really hard to find proof for authentic self-described witches, and authentic unbroken lines of Pagan practice.

While I do think Gardner was responsible for "getting Wicca started" I also think that he did know Dorothy Clutterbuck, and I think Dorothy Clutterbuck was involved in occultism. Philip Heselton's book "Wiccan Roots: Gerald Gardner and the Modern Witchcraft Revival" published in 2000 provides a lot of very solid evidence that supports this. There are still a lot of questions however so I don't personally feel comfortable saying the evidence proves that Clutterbuck was definitely Wiccan, or that she definitely initiated and taught Gardner, or that what Gardner presented was what he was taught by his initiator. But despite this I think there is a lot of evidence that does support the claim that Clutterbuck was at the very least interested and involved in local occult groups and that Gardner had plenty of opportunity to meet her and get to know her.

There's still a lot of questions about how Wicca started up during Gardner's day that need answers. It's actually pretty cool that we are in such a fortunate position of being close enough to the time in question that it's not impossible that we can find out more. Think about how hard it has got to be for people trying to do the same thing with relgions that were started hundreds or thousands of years ago!

[Old Witch]

It's modern........That's not a bad thing......

[MystIc_WolF]

I agree with Erincelt, Wicca itself is a "new" religion, but it is based on witchcraft, ceremonial magic, and fold religions that were around even before the Middle Ages, so in this way it is a truly "ancient" religion.