Advice please?

[docdoo]

Hello all,
I was hesitant to post this for many reasons, only one of which is because I tend to be an inherently happy person and detest being the 'party killer'. Not to mention the fear of exposing myself to ridicule! Having said that I hope that I can get some advice from all of you wonderful souls on this board.

I have recently come to understand that my marriage of 10 years is breathing its last gasps. Some of you may be familiar with this, though I dont tend to talk about it a whole lot. I have known for a long while that I felt nothing for my husband, not love, not hate, just...nothing. Recently however I began to question the fairness in staying in a marriage that I could only tolerate but never enjoy. Apparantly these questions were enough to send it tumbling into oblivion and now I find myself at a crossroads, completely unprepared for the journey ahead.

I have 3 children (all boys ages 13, 12, 8) I am a stay at home mom, I gave up my bookkeeping career 9 years ago to allow for my husband to work his job. This seemed to be the thing to do. With the astronomical costs of day-care for 3 kids it seemed the only sane course to take. I now regret that decision terribly. I have not worked in over 3 years, any value I had in the workforce as a bookeeper is long gone, and my potential worth to an employer is small at best.

This is where the fear of posting comes in...I have many decisions before me...only one of which is whether I should actually end this marriage or not. I am sure of my own feelings about my husband, but money stands in my way. So many people immediatly cry out 'Never stay in a marriage for the kids' or some other such blanket comment and in theory thats a wonderful idea. The reality of it however is a bit different (as Im sure some of you may know) and when one is faced with being a single mom with 3 boys it is a frightening prospect at best.

Losing one's home and seeing, in your minds eye, your kids crying as I sell their horses and take their dogs to the pound is frightening enough...couple that with the knowledge that I may very easily be forced to take the kids from their friends (their school) and move them to a 2-3 bedroom apartment in the city...and well...I start to see the flaws in the 'Never stay in a marriage for the kids' statement.

And, in honesty, I dont know if that option is even still open to me...it seems an uncanny calm has fallen over me the last week...a sort of 'throw my hands into the air and say...Ok, life what do you have for me next?' type of thing. I think that, somewhere inside of me, I have already made the decision to end this....which brings me to the real question.

How exactly does one get their proverbial ducks in a row before taking this sort of gigantic step? Speaking strictly on a financial note...how could I keep the house? I am worth about 300.00 a week to an employer...I've crunched the numbers and they dont look promising. I can cover the mtg. and car pmts...but at the expense of the electricity and phone! After adding everything up (groceries, utilities you name it) Im still coming up nearly 500.00 short. The only way I can take this step is if I know that I can care for my kids in the manner they deserve...please dont tell me that 'Their mother deserves happiness' because honestly much of my happiness depends upon theirs. Wrong? Probably... but true...I have built my life around them and perhaps one day it will not be so...but for now, it is.

Are there relief programs out there for people like me? I am not afraid to work, (have in fact already applied for several jobs) and do have other options open to me....but they are not options I like to think about. Has anyone here gone through something similar? I would be happy for a divorce if I could keep my kids in their home...with their things and their pets. My credit has always been good (though our debt to income right now is badly skewed)

I've been divorced before...years ago...but at that time in my life I had nothing to lose. I already lived in a crappy apartment with crappy things. Now I have helped to build a comfortable existence for my sons...we own a house with acreage, they are solid students in school with friends, they show their horses in 4-H and...well...I dont want them to lose that. I would be so very grateful for any advice anyone has...but, please be gentle with me, I bruise easily.

Thank you ever so much,

[13thChylde]

Oh honey, I have nothing to offer but a :huddle: , as I am in the same situation.

Best of luck to you.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Doc,

I can't offer much more than support, but I do want to tell you, as a child of divorced parents, that your sons will have a lot more respect for you if stand up for yourself and leave an unfixable situation than if you stay and let yourself continue to be a doormat. *hugs*

[Bran83]

Ok first off I skimmed through your post.... The first thing I would recomend is trying to see a marriage councilor to see if you can pin point the promblems in your marriage and see if they can be resolved.

Also it sounds like you might want to be working. Which isnt unusual for most women whose kids are old enought to be home on their own. Also in restarting your career you will be better able to exit the marriage more prepared if you choose so.

[Calyx]

Docdoo,
:hugz: :hugz: :hugz: :hugz: :hugz: :hugz:
I don't know that I have much useful advice for you at this time (mostly because I am trying to type and listen and participate in a teleconference at the same time). I know that this is a difficult and heartbreaking decision for you. I completely understand your fears about your children and their needs too.
Right now, I can only offer love and support to you, and after I think about this today perhaps I will have something to offer you tonite. If you need to talk, you can always PM me.... :huddle:
Sending you some energy for peace and clarity as you work your way through this.

[Xander67]

I will back up what Ben has said,

My mother left my father when I was in 2nd grade... I have one sister,
my mother met someone who loved me and my sister like we were his...

looking back, I think my mother made a good choice, staying in a relationship for the kids sake is not healthy for you, or the children.

[Koehnae]

First of all :hugz:

Only you can decide what's best for you and your kids. You wrote a wonderful, heartfelt post, but could never tell us everything that is going on to help us to help you in making the right decision. I can only give you a shoulder to cry on, an ear to listen, and a hand to hold when you need it. I will see if I can find anything to help you in making your decision and helping you to keep your current living situation.

[Aylwyn]

Is your husband aware of your desision? If not have you considered developing yourself on an educational level?

Do you have any college experience that you can build upon? It may sound unkind (but I don't think it is) but why not educate yourself while in a position to do so.

This would serve many purposes.
1. It would give you security. You will make yourself marketable and able to have a decent living on your own.

2. This will give your children time to mature. Getting an education takes some time, and during that time your children will be growing.

3. It will change the way you see things. I went back to college when I was 28, I'm now 33 (almost 34). I only need a few more credits before I attain Senior status. I see things very differently (big understatement) and you will to if you haven't spent time a significant amount of time in college already.

4. During the time that your education would take, you may find your reasons for loving your husband again. Right now this may seem silly and/or impossible, but you never know.

What ever you decide I hope that the God and Goddess smile upon you.

[Celticscryer]

:huddle: First of all, huge hugs to you for what you are going through. :huddle:

Second, to get all of your ducks in a row before you make this huge change in your life, I would suggest you contact a local employment agency; they can help you get back into the workforce and many offer training assistance to build up your job skills. You can also arrange flexible hours this way, so that you do not have to put your boys into after school care.

So long as there is nothing abusive about your current living situation, I do not see any reason for you to rush out of your marriage. Staying together for the children will not be harmful to them if there is nothing harmful about the situation (meaning: abuse, constant fighting, either one of you having an affair, etc.) and may be better for them in the long run if they see that you first worked hard to better yourself, in order to provide a better life for them in the long run.

You mentioned that your happiness depends on your boys happiness; that is as it should be. It shows what a wonderful mother you are. By doing everything in your power to make sure their lives are the happiest they can possibly be, you will ensure that in the long run, you own life will be happy too.

[IndigoMoon]

I just wanted to add that when you are crunching numbers don't forget to add child support. As a single mother you are entitled to child support that is up to your standard of living.

[WitchJezebel]

Doc,

I can't offer much more than support, but I do want to tell you, as a child of divorced parents, that your sons will have a lot more respect for you if stand up for yourself and leave an unfixable situation than if you stay and let yourself continue to be a doormat. *hugs*


I agree with Ben. My mom was definitely NOT a doormat, but my dad was a hardcore alcoholic and my mother was a 'yeller'. They divorced when I was 11 and I give her alot of respect (even if we don't get along at ALL) for doing what she thought was right. I wish you loads of luck :hugz: and I hope you find your answers and your direction soon.

[Celticscryer]

I just wanted to add that when you are crunching numbers don't forget to add child support. As a single mother you are entitled to child support that is up to your standard of living.
I would caution against counting on Child Support payments. In many states, your ex is only required to pay about 100 dollars per month, per child. It is a sad fact, but I have seen it all too often. (I've worked in payroll and processed the deductions for child support payments)

[Lady Jade]

I feel for your situation...(((((((HUGS)))))). On the financial front, you should be able to get child support and alimony (so long as you don't go to work before the divorce is final.) A good attorney should be able to get you:
1. child support
2. alimony (since you quit working to be with the children) until you remarry
3. temporary orders to have him move out, but still pay the bills while this is pending
4. the house, or at least 1/2 the proceeds from the sale
5. He would have to pay all bills in his name and you the same.
6. Keep your own vehicles

Decisons are hard to make, but do what's best for you. Your kids will understand if you are truthful and up front with them.

you'll be in my thoughts...if you have any legal questions feel free to pm me

[LadyWillowHawk]

:)MM. I am not up on the laws of the U.S.,I'm Canadian,but the first thing I would do is go to accounting school,whether attending night school courses or corrspondence at home.That would help to bring me up to par,and also increase my worth as an accountent.If you could stay as you are for now and finish your schooling, you could eventually work from home as you develope clients.Are you ok physically,are you safe I mean?Is the relationship tolerable so you could do this?Plus start to look at organizations for assistance.That is what I would do.I feel for your situation and I will pray to the Goddess to ask Her to watch over you and the kids and I'll light a candle for you and your kids,for a clear mind,strength,protection,and for direction.I'll send positive energy also.Right now I'll send hugs. :hugz:
BB
Love,
LadyWillowHawk**

[Tzhebee]

I have a couple questions. Have you talked to your husband about how you feel? Is it possible that he feels the same way?

My parents divorced when I was only 4. My mom said that they never once fought in all that time-because they never spoke. They both knew that they should separate, but didn't because of me. When they finally did, it was on mutual grounds with no hard feelings because neither of them were "blindsided" by the other just leaving them. My parents are still on good terms with one another. When my father flies out to visit, he stays with my mom and step-dad. So, you see, it doesn't have to be terrible.

About the house and falling short on income, you could count on alimony if it's available in your state, child support, etc. But some people don't want to count on that. It the separation is mutual, I'm sure your husband would be willing to help. If it's not, the only advice I have is to get a good lawyer.

I feel for you and wish you the best in everything! You will make it throug this trying time and everything will work out for the best! :huddle:

[Pesha]

Doc,

I can't offer much more than support, but I do want to tell you, as a child of divorced parents, that your sons will have a lot more respect for you if stand up for yourself and leave an unfixable situation than if you stay and let yourself continue to be a doormat. *hugs*
Agreed definitly. I divorced my first husband as he had been battering and cheating on me. I was told to stay for the children, but I could not let my son see this as a way of life. My kids came out ok. My son today is a good and nuturing husband and father. Had my daughter lived..(she passed away at age 23..)....She would have been a good person I am sure. You sometimes have to do what is in the best interests of the kids and also you MUST do what is for your best interests as well. There are programmes for displaced housewives and you have skills. Doc, I cannot tellyou what to do. But I amd sending hugs and love and healing to you sweety.

BB
DS.

[Hoot]

(((docdoo)))

If there isn't any sort of abuse involved, then in terms of practicality and what's best for your kids (since that is important to you), then I have to go with this:


The first thing I would recomend is trying to see a marriage councilor to see if you can pin point the promblems in your marriage and see if they can be resolved..

This may not be the popular answer, but if there is any way or hope of finding common ground, then trying to revive your marraige may be the answer.


Also it sounds like you might want to be working. Which isnt unusual for most women whose kids are old enought to be home on their own. Also in restarting your career you will be better able to exit the marriage more prepared if you choose so.

This advice is essential. Start looking for work. Consider upgrading your skills in the process, and use this time to work on your career marketablity. And with less time at home, you may want to get your oldest to start taking on some more responsibility and pitch in to help you around the house. I don't see how that could hurt, whatever you decide to do.

You have a good head on your shoulders - trust in yourself.

Sending you lots of love.

[dragonspirit 69]

Well I agree with the person who said to try councsling. Also I know this sounds like a plug but I know a lady who is a single mom who does Partylite and makes about 800.00 to 1500.00 a week depending how busy she needs to be. You might want to look in to it I've just started about 4 weeks ago and made over 600.00 by doing 3 shows. gook luck with what ever you decide and let us know what you did. :elf:

[green_magik]

I did not read all of the post but I am sure that you have received some sound advise. I divorced my sons dad when my youngest was six. My ex was abusive to my sons and myself. But, if I had to do it all over again I would have stayed in the marriage until my sons was older.

Let me tell you why. My boys are now 22 and 20. We are very close and have talked about this many times. They understand why I left, my oldest remembers the beatings and abuse and he has problems with this. In fact it has made him very protective of me. But after all of this they regret not having a normal family.

While in Iraq my oldest son wrote me and was talking about his life, he said that the one thing that he hated most was that he did not feel like he had a home. They were made to go from house to house and not being stable. The holidays was the worst. They were rushed and pushed and prodded. Go here, and then here and then here. You get the picture.

(I know that I am rambling but please hear me out. This past year has been one of the hardest in my life and I have done a lot of soul searching.)

But when people tell you to stay in the marriage for the kids, yes I agree stay in the marriage for the kids. Instead of thinking how unhappy you are think about how unhappy the kids will be without their family together.

I would suggest that you see a counselor and try to work it out. Every marriage has hard times so please for the sake of the children work it out. I would hate for one day you get a letter from your son telling you how unhappy his childhood was.

Just my 2 cents.

[*GrumpButt*]

Hon the opnly thing I can tell you is:

Get your little bottom to school! Get a grant or a loan if you cant afford it!
If you go for the PELL GRANT they GIVE you the left over money each semester that is left over from classes and books....

In the mean time, do talk to your Hubby.. Se what he has to say about this...

And as always lotsa of :hugzs: and :heartthro !

[WitchJezebel]

But when people tell you to stay in the marriage for the kids, yes I agree stay in the marriage for the kids. Instead of thinking how unhappy you are think about how unhappy the kids will be without their family together.

I would suggest that you see a counselor and try to work it out. Every marriage has hard times so please for the sake of the children work it out. I would hate for one day you get a letter from your son telling you how unhappy his childhood was.

Just my 2 cents.

If you stay in a loveless, unhappy marriage for the sake of the children, how do you think that will affect them in the long run? Children are very receptive to their parents emotions and behavior towards each other and that in and of itself affects how they deal with other adults when they become adults themselves. Being happy in your marriage can help you be a better parent, but if you're miserable, can you really be the best parent you can be? Having a family doesn't always mean a mom & dad; it means having love and support from whomever the children live with - that's a family IMO. I can respect your opinion and I can see why a letter from your son telling you his childhood was unhappy made you sad; but you can't punish yourself for that, you did what you thought was best for yourself and your children. Your son is now an adult, there are places he can get help to deal with his anger & frustration over his childhood. I can say that with confidence because I also came from a broken home with an unhappy childhood. Your life shouldn't end because the marriage does. Do you really think your children's lives would have been better if you stayed?

[angelbaby]

Doc
There's not really much I can offer you but :hugz: and an ear to listen to. But I do agree that you should go back to school. There are loads of scholarships out there for more things than you can imagine. I think you can even get one just because you are a stay at home mom. Although there really isn't anything I can say to make you feel better because I have no idea what your going through, just remember we are all here for you and you know how to pm me if you need to. :hugz:

[Gala]

Doc,

I can't offer much more than support, but I do want to tell you, as a child of divorced parents, that your sons will have a lot more respect for you if stand up for yourself and leave an unfixable situation than if you stay and let yourself continue to be a doormat. *hugs*


I confess I haven't read the whole thread, but when I read this I had to respond.
My oldest friend who passed away 2 years ago, was a door mat for her husband. For years she let him ride roughshod over her as her father had done. She finally divorced him but still let him put her down. Her two sons did the same thing, they had seen her let their father and so that's what they did.
They had no respect for her at all.
Just writing this so you can have more information.

[Kalika]

:hugz:

Would the boy's dad keep those things for them? The things that you are worried about losing?

The best way to find a job is to go out and look for one. You obviously have SOME computer skills... because you're on here. :) You have more potential than you think. Yes, 3 years is awhile to be out of the workforce, but would your boss of 3 years ago still be willing to give you a good reference? Also, being a stay at home mom is a good reason to be out of the mix for awhile. Employers realize that, and you may be suprised at what you'll find, and who will be willing to take the chance on someone who hasn't worked in 3 years. You may have to start small and work your way up... its exactly that, a start. Which is better than nothing, yes?

My other question is, would your husband be decent about a divorce.... or would he make it very difficult for you? Does HE know how you feel? Are you sure that your feelings have dissipated because they aren't there, or because you yearn to be doing something and feel that he is holding you back?

I agree that counseling is a good idea. Before you give up on 10 years of marriage... you should try all of your options. And really try... not just go through the motions of trying. In the meantime, you could also try to find a job, just to get back out there and feel like you are standing on your own two feet again. Sounds as though your children are old enough to be by themselves for a few hours if a neighbor is handy.

Also, your children will be more resilient than you might think. :)
They might be upset about moving, if that's what it comes to, at first... but eventually the excitement of new places, new friends, and new experiences will set in, and they'll bounce back. They're also old enough that if this is what you decide to do... you should sit down and talk with them about what's going to happen.

:huddle:

I'm here for ya girl. If you need to talk, you know how to reach me. :hugz:

Kalika

[Phoenix Blue]

It's all well and good to talk to us about this, Docdoo, but have you talked to your husband? He deserves to know that you're not feeling fulfilled, if you haven't already said so. And then you could consider a vacation of some sort, or maybe counseling - something to put a spark back into the relationship.

[SilverMaiden]

It's a tough decision. Not a decision that has to be made and followed through with immediately by your post.

What are the chances of you taking time to get back to school to either learn another career or trade that will allow you the financial independence you would require?

You've got a lot of great and wonderful information on animals. You certainly love them. That's a career choice to think about. If you lived close enough and were a holistic a vet, I'd be your most devoted client! :D

[Kalika]

I just realized that this thread was revived from over a month ago....

Doc, if this brings up any bad feelings... I'm sorry. :hugz:

[Pesha]

Hi Doc, I have been re-reading this thread and wanted to say a few things here. One is not to sell yourself short. You have skills and there are places that will help you in training to get more while on the job. Also sweety you need to seek a lawyer. Is there a legal aid in your town? And also at this point have you spoken with your husband and had the talk with him on how it is and what is possibly going to happen to ths marraige. Darling you must first of all be happy in life in order to go forward and accomplish things. So do what you have to do but get good counseling and legal advice and again dear do not sell yourself short. You have alot of value!

BB
DS.

[Tzaolunyin]

I know this is old, but I'm very curious as to how it's turning out? I only ask because I might be in the middle of such a situation very soon.

Have you tried counseling yet?

{{{docdoo!}}}

[Antoninus]

Well, whatever happens, youll have the support of the people here. I dont really know what else to say, I wish there was. But all I can say is that it cant rain forever. Even the darkest, most violent storm ends after a while. Just keep your chin up, keep your sword ready and your shield high, charge in fighting with everything you got. Do that, and you cant fail.

**Hugs doc** Good luck

[Melissa]

I basically just skimmed over everyone's response, so if I reapeat anything, I appologize.

I agree with those who say that you might want to try to see a marriage councior to see if you can figure out what went wrong in the marriage and see if you can fix it.

I'm not a mother yet, so I don't know what it's like to love a child of your own yet, but I know that when my former best friend Sam had her daughter I loved that child like my own and I would have done anything for her. So with that said, I would think if I were to have kids and I was in an unhappy marriage where my husband wasn't abusing me in any way I would probablly stay for the sake of my children if they were of school aged. I wouldn't want to take them from the house that the grew up in and I wouldn't want to take them away from their friends. I would also try my hardest to get my husband to see a marriage counslor with me so that we could pin point the problem and fix it. I mean I'm sure there had to be some kind of love with your husband at some point for you to have 3 children with him and marry him.

I can't really suggest anything else, as I have no idea what it's like to be in this situation. I will keep you in my thoughts and hope for the best for you.

And it's okay that your not happy 24/7 a day. Everyone has their bad days.

[Romani Vixen]

I honestly can't offer any advise. But do what you need to to ensure that you and your children are happy and healthy. I don't know where you live, but if it's in the States, you should be able to get assistance. Perhaps go back to school ... brush up on business practices... get back to work...

but above all... make sure that you are making steps to better your life.

Stregnth energy sent..

[Wascally Wabbit]

If you are in the US, welfare programs for single mothers are generally in a very bad state, with the government requiring almost as much time as a job in exchange for very little support.

Frankly, this sounds like you running away from you. Your reasons sound insuffient to break up a home with the man you chose to father three your children.

[mudweed]

Guys, don't forget that the original post is from February! :D

[Xentor]

This message was posted by SouthernLuvn, though it wound up at the wrong place. Repeating it here:

Quoted SouthernLuvn:

"For what it's worth... my mother went through the same thing. As her son, I must say that my point of view is limited to my perpective. I will admit that there is no way that this will not be hard on every one. But take comfort in the fact that your chidren, even if they don't understand for a while, will grow to appreciate the fact that you are finding your happiness again. Be strong and honest. I know that if you listen to your heart then you will not go astray."

[Shanti]

I dont have advise for you but I went through those desisions in the past. I found I had to ask myself questions first before I could make an honest desision.

Fisrt I asked, why? Did he change or me?
Am I bored or restless?
What is fair to me, my childrens father and mostly, my children.
Can I fix myself to help the situation?
What is really important.
How will I effect those people in my life?

Its hard but very important to be sure because theres no turning back.
I wish you the best.

[docdoo]

*Wanders into thread, a surprised look on her face* Why oh why wont this thread DIE already!!!!

Ok...I appreciate all the comments that have been left...In fact, this thread has done wonders to make me feel that, though I may wish to be, I am not, in fact, alone. I want to say that all of you are wonderfully kind and caring people.

With that out of the way I'll try to give a little more information as to the situation that A) brought this on and B) as it stands now.

I am generally a very private person...in fact, this thread falls so far outside the normal scope of my behaviour that I cant imagine what I was thinking about the day I wrote it. To clarify point A) I will say only that my children and myself are not in the best place here. I will say one thing to those of you that would suggest counseling...my husband is, for lack of a more suitable term....controlling. His behaviour is manipulative and he has, over the course of my 11 year marriage, acted in ways that were selfish at best and criminal at worst. I will not go into specifics on a board that has over 9000 members.

In and of itself his lack of control in so many areas and his spiritual stagnation have left a shadow over this home that is picked up on by everyone who comes here (those of you who have been to my home and seen the effects of this negativity know all too well what Im talking about) I have reached a point in my journey where I can no longer play the role of 'The Victim' (quoted and capitalized for effect). This is a role that I know well, I also play it very well and it is destructive and serves only to force stagnation of spirit. I cannot stagnate any longer, I have remained frighteningly unchanged in the 11 years that I have been married to this man. In fact, I have regressed in many areas of my life. In short I have come to understand that doing what *feels* comfortable does not always equate into what is *healthy*.

On that note I'll move on. Currently my situation is as follows...Last week my husband went to stay with friends. Almost immediatly the effects of losing such a negative force in this house were visible. My children havent fought at all this week (outside of one scuffle)...the house has been maintained and they have been exceptionally bright eyed and happy. In short it was as though this entire structure and the people who live within it felt an almost palatable fog lift from our shoulders. We played games and laughed and joked without fear of stepping over a line and getting in *trouble*.

The most valuable thing I learned last week was that I *can* do this, Im scared, (terrified actually) and walking in unfamiliar territory...but Im excited and realize that this is the VERY best thing I can do for these kids and myself. I am growing...like it or not my entire base value system and belief system have been slowly changing...molding into something new...Im unsure where this will ultimately take me but I realize that I can no longer fight to stay in a relationship that has left my confidence and self-esteem in a sort of mental straightjacket. He will be moving into his own apartment on or about the 25th of this month.

I would prefer this not become a 'Bash the husband' post, there is no room in my heart for hate or anger...they are a waste of my time and energy. I feel no anger towards my husband and hold nothing against him though, to those who know me well and know the entire story, I know they hate that I say this. Regardless, my husband is not evil, nor good...he's just a man on his own path and his path is utterly different and detrimental to my inner workings. I hope, for his own sake and happiness, that one day he will come to see the change that needs to occur within him. For, as in all of us, he has the potential to become a kind and loving man with the capacity to exhibit both tenderness and selflessness.

I want to thank everyone for their support on this thread.
Believe it or not each and every one of you were instrumental in backing me into a wall and forcing me to make perhaps the hardest decision of my life. This post is meant as a sort of repayment for those of you touched my Karma or sent me PM's over this...thank you all...truly there is a sort of diamond mine of beautiful people on this board.

Having said that I will close...I dont intend to post to this one again, but will watch it as it drops from the board. This thread has become sort of an icon for me...a snapshot of a terrifying moment of uncertainty where the forces that help move me through my life hung in perfect balance for a few days. The fear and desire to stay with what is known, balanced nearly perfectly against the small fire of knowledge that I was not in a good place. As such I will watch it slip and say goodbye to that part of my life again...with no remorse, or anger, or tears....

Thank you all.

[Phoenix Blue]

Having said that I will close...I dont intend to post to this one again, but will watch it as it drops from the board.

Here, let me help out with that. ;)