Reincarnation In Druidry

[WildSpirit]

Okay, this is something I am a tad confusled about...

How does reincarnation work in Druidry (namely Irish)?

I've heard so many things from spiritual movement through the seasons to passing down of genetic memory...I'm lost, I tell you! LOL. So if one of ye would be so kind to try and explain it to me, I'd be much obliged. :)

[ladyrowan]

I'd say it works for Druids the same as for everyone else!

Now if you're asking about their beliefs, that's a different matter. (sorry, couldn't resist! haha)

I don't think all druids necessarily believe in the same thing, there's no 'rule book', so you'll probably get lots of different answers. Here's what I think:

Putting it simply, I believe we're all here to learn lessons, once they're all learnt we don't need to come back any more.
I think we choose when to come back, and we choose our parents so as to have the upbringing/background we need for those lessons.
It can take many lives to learn just one lesson, (as I've discovered over and over again; just hope i learn this particular one properly this time - getting sick of it!!!!!) or maybe takes just the one lifetime, but there'll be more lives to learn different lessons.
I believe we all experience everything there is to experience eventually. I don't think it happens in any particular order, I don't think you start off as a mass murderer and end up as a Mother Teresa.
I don't believe in Karma, in that you are punished or rewarded in this life depending on how you done last time. So, I think it possible, for instance, for Mother Teresa to come back as a really evil person next time, just another lesson for her soul. I don't think we come back disabled in some way as a punishment, as David Ike suggested a while ago.
I think that usually we're here to learn a lesson for ourselves, or sometimes to help someone else with theirs.
I don't know how many times we come here, or how much time we leave between lives; my last time was in Victorian times.
Hope that helps.

BB

[WildSpirit]

Well, here is pretty much how I see it:

Our physical embodiment carries our deeper, inner soul. This inner soul, however, is more than matter; it is energy, and as physics tells us, energy cannot be destroyed, but only changed or reshaped. Thus is how we are reincarnated, as well as being one with the Earth and the Cosmos around us. Our energy is in a parallel with the energy of the Earth and the Cosmos, thus in turn allowing us to channel universal energies through our body to produce what is known to us as "magick." As we move on in the stages of our life, we continue through the circle of three. through stages of the Maiden, Mother, and Crone (even if we are males), and through the cycle of Life, Death, and Rebirth, our energy continues through this same circle, through the essence of the very Universe which surrounds us, we are brought back. Thus goes the never-ending Circle of Life.

[Twig]

Hola WildSpirit! I can only relate what has been taught to me. Souls DO reincarnate. Heres part of another post I did.

I knew that this spirit was my guide. What's more, this guide was ME! One of my prior incarnations had made a promise to his [future]self. To lead him/me in the mysteries that he/I had learned over 2000 years ago. He had no teacher other than trial and error and made a promise [to the FUTURE!] that I shouldn't have to go through the same pain he did, by making the wrong choices in ritual and learning, should I choose the same path. .

To read the full message go here (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=42358#post42358)

I firmly belive that a prior incarnation of myself is guiding my soul through this life. :crazy: ;) It's not as crazy as it sounds.

Others can give you better historical reference. I say just go with what feels right, :heartthro your heart won't lead you wrong.

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[WildSpirit]

That is indeed the right way to go. Not to bash on Druids (obviously), but I have met many who are so hell-bent on thinking that their way is the only right way and feel like those who go against their way should be given a thorough tongue lashing. As long as your beliefs stay within the general oath of your Order, what is the harm? Every person is going to have their own way of believing in some aspect anyways....

WildSpirit

[Pele_Oak]

Besides the ever popluar modern ideas of reincarnation I do know it is a cross celtic cultural belief that the deads spirit can transfer to an already existing living thing or 'inanimate' thing. This is a very old belief and is the one most commonly spoken of in historic documents about the celts and druids.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by WildSpirit
As long as your beliefs stay within the general oath of your Order, what is the harm? Every person is going to have their own way of believing in some aspect anyways....

Agreed! That's one thing I love about the Gwyddon Tradition. We see the personal path as also being Sacred. How can it not be? :D

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Pele_Oak
Besides the ever popluar modern ideas of reincarnation I do know it is a cross celtic cultural belief that the deads spirit can transfer to an already existing living thing or 'inanimate' thing. This is a very old belief and is the one most commonly spoken of in historic documents about the celts and druids.

Huh? Can you clarify please? Transfer into an already existing thing? Never heard of it?

[WildSpirit]

You know, Mairwen, to be honest, I've been seriously thinking of taking a deeper look into Welsh trads...they do seem very interesting to me. Answer one thing for me though...is Brighid in the Cymru pantheon? Or at least in some form? Cause I could not go on w/o her...lol.

[Krom]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Huh? Can you clarify please? Transfer into an already existing thing? Never heard of it?

I think that I can shead some light on this. In some of the Celtic stories regarding reincarnation; a spirit of a dead relative can transfer into a stone, tree, rock, well, river etc. Llew in the Mabinogion turned into an eagle after his death. Another example would be in a modern movie. The name of the movie is "In to the West." The mother who is dead comes back as a full grown stallion, not reborn into a new body but either transformed or inhabiting the body of a full grown horse. In the Wickerman the girl is suppose to have turned into a March Hare.
Well at least that is how I am understanding what is being said. :)

MP B*B
Krom

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by WildSpirit
You know, Mairwen, to be honest, I've been seriously thinking of taking a deeper look into Welsh trads...they do seem very interesting to me. Answer one thing for me though...is Brighid in the Cymru pantheon? Or at least in some form? Cause I could not go on w/o her...lol.

Well, our Tradition sees her as an aspect of Kerridwen, the All Mother. However, she IS an Irish Goddess.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Krom
Llew in the Mabinogion turned into an eagle after his death.


He wasn't dead when he turned into an eagle. He shapeshifted into the form of an eagle.

[Krom]

Originally posted by Mairwen


He wasn't dead when he turned into an eagle. He shapeshifted into the form of an eagle.



I am sorry but I disagree with you. In the 4th branch of the Mabinogion Llew stands on the edge of the Cauldron and the back of the goat. That was the only way that he could be killed. He was killed by Goronwy Pevr. Gwydion goes on the quest to find the soul of Llew. Gwydion finds the remains of Llew under the great Oak Tree and thus Pryderi's curse was fulfilled. Pigs were feasting on the remains (relating back to Gwydion stealing the pigs from Prdyeri. It goes on to say that Gwydion is said to use charms to make new flesh grow where earlier flesh had rotted.

Traditionally threw out the British tribes the realse of the spirit is said to take the form of a flying insect or bird. Gwydion then takes revenge on Blodeuwedd by killing her in a non-ordinary death. He sent her spirit out as the Owl.

So Llew was killed by the only way he could be. He was reformed by Gwydion and Math. He took revenge on Goronwy Pevr by killing him with a spear that went through a large stone.

MP B*B
Krom

[WildSpirit]

This all sounds really intruiging!!! I think I'm gonna keep looking into Welsh traditions...I'm starting to like them quite much!

[Pele_Oak]

The Brittish did have a version of her Brigitina, she was obviously important enough fro the Brits to take her name! She is a fire and healing goddess and often appears as 3 maidens instead of the mother, maiden, crone motif. She may also appear singularly, she is a vegatarian and patroness of dairy cattle and dairy realted things as well. She is a trickster goddess often winning things through cunning (such as the lake of ale for the dead in the afterlife). The White cow with red ears is sacred to her. Also associated with snakes and charms preventing snake bites.

Pele_Oak

[Pele_Oak]

I think modern followers of Celtic based relgions such as neo-druidism and neo-witchcraft have a primative and simple approach to the afterlife. If one spends time reading what occultists think, folklore of the Celts, the Mythologies, modern customs, and what the Archeaologists think, one gets the impression that the Celts had a rich after life.

Head Hunting & Collecting: Their is a church in Ireland where the decorated heads of dead monks are kept and a church in Spain where the gold covered heads of dead saints are kept. These 2 modern examples are hold overs from the Celtic belief that the head contains the soul and that possion of the head some how means the keeper had access to the soul of the deceased. THe Celts did collect the heads of enemies (the ones they respected), kept the heads of human sacrafices and had skull shrines.

Shaman Elements: The Gwydion & Llew story being discussed appears revolve around the soul being seen as a flying insect or bird. This belief is still found not only in folk beliefs of rural areas in the U.K. but is found in Shamanistic cultures around the world. Gwydion goes to a tree (the world tree) and sings Llews soul back (from the top of the tree...a common shaman motif as to where souls hang when lost in the upperworld) into the putred flesh which was at the base or roots of the tree (shaman motif for underworld). Than Llew had to be healed and transformed back alive.

Transmigration of the SouL: This is a confusing concept to modern peoples way of thinking contradicting the reincarnation theory and yet at the same time supporting reincarnation. It is the belief that the soul will transfer to an already existing rock, tree, well or animal and thus live in it for awhile and be accesable to the living. This is probably related to ancestor worship. It is propably also tied to the belief of ghosts, the dead hanging in the area they died and the belief the the soul of the dead returns to the tribe as seen in customs like "piping the dead home".

Swans, Geese: These birds appear again and again as conected with escorting the dead souls to the otherworld and then childrens souls from the other world to this world. The Germanic tribes used white storks. The key image is big white bird. They are usually associated with a stone in a lake or cave taht they enter and exit from.

The Happy Other World: This palce has many names but seems to be the Celtic version of Heaven or Paradise.

The Bone Prison: From Welsh mythology a very unpleasent place made of the bones of the enemies and were the underworld gods inprison transgressors (Gwydion did time there). Seems to be Celtic Hell or Purgatory.

The Underworld: Often actually under the sea, not neccasarly a bad place. The hosts are usually described as generous with the worthy.

Immortality: The only belief that everyone agrees on is that the Celts and Druids believed the soul was immortal.

Anyhow see how confussing it all is.

Love Pele_Oak :}

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Pele_Oak
Transmigration of the SouL: This is a confusing concept to modern peoples way of thinking contradicting the reincarnation theory and yet at the same time supporting reincarnation. It is the belief that the soul will transfer to an already existing rock, tree, well or animal and thus live in it for awhile and be accesable to the living.

Okay. This is where I got confused about the soul inhibiting an already existing being. I thought the person might be discussing transmigration, but wasn't sure. This isn't how I view transmigration, nor is it what I was taught transmigration was, nor have I ever seen it described like this. Now I'm really confused.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Pele_Oak
Immortality: The only belief that everyone agrees on is that the Celts and Druids believed the soul was immortal.

A continually reincarnating soul is truly immortal, yes? Energy doesn't die, it constantly changes.

[Krom]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Okay. This is where I got confused about the soul inhibiting an already existing being. I thought the person might be discussing transmigration, but wasn't sure. This isn't how I view transmigration, nor is it what I was taught transmigration was, nor have I ever seen it described like this. Now I'm really confused.

It is in many of the Mythology's of the British Isle. The soul entering into a tree or rock to watch over their family for a time being. In Scotland; there are the stories that talk about the soul of a dead relative entering into a well. It is all over the old mythologies. Celtic Myth and Legend by Squire has some of these myths.

I would be interested in hearing your interpretation of transmigration. I would also be interested in any source material that you may know of that has a different interpretation.

MP B*B
Krom

[Mairwen]

I guess it depends on the myths/translations/teachings you follow, then, yes?

[Krom]

Originally posted by Mairwen
I guess it depends on the myths/translations/teachings you follow, then, yes?

I am talking in generality of all of Britain. The myths that have been passed down not just through my tradition but other historical mythos. Cultural Anthropology is a passion of mine. I find that there are more similarities than differences between the early inhabits of British Isles (Isle of the Mighty). It is true, as you say, it depends on who's interpretation of the different myths you follow. I would still be interested in hearing your views on transmigration, if you are willing to share.

Thanks and MP
Krom

[ladyrowan]

Originally posted by Krom

It is in many of the Mythology's of the British Isle. The soul entering into a tree or rock to watch over their family for a time being

Just thought i'd mention that i've lived in England all my life, and have been interested in these things since childhood, but i've never heard any of theses myths.
They might be written down in books, but they're not part of a generally accepted belief system that is passed down verbally.

BB

[Krom]

Originally posted by ladyrowan


Just thought i'd mention that i've lived in England all my life, and have been interested in these things since childhood, but i've never heard any of theses myths.
They might be written down in books, but they're not part of a generally accepted belief system that is passed down verbally.

BB



Well as I am from Califonia; I can only go by the written records that were published. I know that some of them are Scotish and Irish but there are British ones as well. Many of these beliefs have disapeared, but alot of them were in practice and recorded as recent as the 1800's by social works and variety of folklorist. Whether or not these beliefs are still held today is another question. I am going by written historical observation and recordings of native beliefs.

An example of people living in traditional ways was the Welsh not using surnames as recent as the 1800's. There were some Welshmen that refused to take a surname because it was not part of their culture. This being forced by the English Crown. This is documented. I am sure that now a days in Wales everyone has a last name.


Since I am a Yank all I can do is go by the written accounts and mythologies that were handed down to the folklorist.


Good to hear from someone from across the Sea. What area are you from? I have family in Nottinghamshire (sp) as well as London. One branch came to America through Canada in the early part of the last Century.

MP B*B
Krom

[ladyrowan]

Originally posted by Krom


I know that some of them are Scotish and Irish but there are British ones as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Ummmmm, Northern Ireland and Scotland ARE British, as is Wales! hehe




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: An example of people living in traditional ways was the Welsh not using surnames as recent as the 1800's. There were some Welshmen that refused to take a surname because it was not part of their culture. This being forced by the English Crown. This is documented. I am sure that now a days in Wales everyone has a last name.
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It wasn't only the Welsh, i think the rest of Britain too. Many of our surnames are taken from the occupations held, as in my family name of Farmer (there is a branch of my family in USA, but don't know where. Went in early part of last century!!)



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Good to hear from someone from across the Sea. What area are you from? I have family in Nottinghamshire (sp) as well as London. One branch came to America through Canada in the early part of the last Century.

MP B*B
Krom



I'm from Kent, about 30 miles from London, my family from London (cockneys).
Just wondering, the branch of your family over there from England, don't suppose their name is Farmer???? hehe

[Krom]

Originally posted by ladyrowan



I'm from Kent, about 30 miles from London, my family from London (cockneys).
Just wondering, the branch of your family over there from England, don't suppose their name is Farmer???? hehe

Nope:) They are Merrick and Drake.:)

MP B*B
Krom

[Krom]

Originally posted by ladyrowan
Ummmmm, Northern Ireland and Scotland ARE British, as is Wales! hehe

Dont tell a Scotsmen that:) Alba gu braith. I dont think that most Welshmen would claim being british either. :)

MP B*B
Krom

[WildSpirit]

By the gods...I feel like such a simple little American now...LOL.

But honestly, no...I don't think many Scots, Irish, or Welsh would take claim to Britain...Ireland/Scotland have been fighting for hundreds of years against them...

[ladyrowan]

Originally posted by WildSpirit
But honestly, no...I don't think many Scots, Irish, or Welsh would take claim to Britain...Ireland/Scotland have been fighting for hundreds of years against them...

They've not been fighting the british, they been fighting the English!! hehe
British does not mean English, thankyou very much, we're English!
I have a friend from Northern Ireland. Ask her what nationality she is, and she ALWAYS says British, same as my Scottish (ex)-Father-in-law.
BB

[Krom]

Originally posted by ladyrowan


They've not been fighting the british, they been fighting the English!! hehe
British does not mean English, thankyou very much, we're English!
I have a friend from Northern Ireland. Ask her what nationality she is, and she ALWAYS says British, same as my Scottish (ex)-Father-in-law.
BB

Actually the word British refers to the Briton's which was one of the Tribes that live on the flat plains of England. They were a specific people/Tribe.

I have many Scottish friends who would never claim to be British.... esp. your Highlanders. They are Scots. SNP is trying to get recognition for Scotland as a separate country. They are gonna finally get their own Parliament. Alba gu Braith!!!!!

Northern Ireland is a different animal all together. The ones who claim to be British are those who are loyal to the Crown. Ask most other Irishmen they would spit in your face if you called them British...... and that is if you are lucky and they are in a good mood :) hehehehe

MP B*B
Krom

[ladyrowan]

Does it really matter how a word originated?
Today, Great Britain is the recognised name for all four countries combined, as is United Kingdom.

As for the rest, I do know my own country, I've lived here for 46years!
My origins are English And Irish (Southern, just 2 generations ago).

If asked my nationality i will say English, same as Scots say Scottish. There's no difference.
Again, British is not just another name for English.

Would also like to say, that i've lived in various parts of london, among irish and scots communities where the english were in a minority. I never once saw any animosity between us (apart from during football matches!), there are thousands of 'mixed marriages' all over Britain which don't raise an eyebrow anywhere.

Things are really not as bad as you seem to think.
The only real difference is political, and many people would like to see us all have our own governments - even an english one, which we do not have (the british government is not the english government by the way).

BB

[Krom]

Originally posted by ladyrowan
Does it really matter how a word originated?
Today, Great Britain is the recognised name for all four countries combined, as is United Kingdom.

As for the rest, I do know my own country, I've lived here for 46years!
My origins are English And Irish (Southern, just 2 generations ago).


Would also like to say, that i've lived in various parts of london, among irish and scots communities where the english were in a minority. I never once saw any animosity between us (apart from during football matches!), there are thousands of 'mixed marriages' all over Britain which don't raise an eyebrow anywhere.

Things are really not as bad as you seem to think.
The only real difference is political, and many people would like to see us all have our own governments - even an english one, which we do not have (the british government is not the english government by the way).

BB

I understand what you are saying Ladyrowan. My Grandmother considered herself English as well. Keep in mind that a lot Americans think that English and British are the same in one. My applogies for that on my part. :(

I agree with you on that it is really political but in some cases it is a sense of Nationality. Us and them so to speak. Many of non-english are not interested in being a part of the United Kingdom/Great Britian any more. So a great deal of the younger generation is rebelling. I know this because I have had some dealing with the SNP. Someday Scotland will be its own Nation once again.

I know that there are or at least were problems between the English and the Irish. I know that mixed marriages in Northern Ireland did not go well...some ending in the death of both. In England proper I am sure that mixed marriages do not raise an eyebrow. I am really glad that the IRA called a cease fire. :) Maybe a final peace is at hand over that one. I know that some of them want a United Ireland with English/British government out.

It has not been that bad in Scotland for a long time but there are still those who call the English Sasannach and refuse to speak English. You tend to find those who feel this way in the Highlands. My Gaelic teacher knew some.

I ment no disrespect in what I was saying to you. I was just making a comment that the tide of those who will allow themselves to be called British or who will accept being called British is changing.

Please forgive any oversight I may have made.

MP B*B
Krom

[ladyrowan]

No problem, I can see it could be a bit confusing!

Anyway, just a few friendly points.......

quote:
Many of non-english are not interested in being a part of the United Kingdom/Great Britian any more.


Many English feel exactly the same way. It often feels that we are the only ones not allowed to have an identity of our own. If we say we're proud to be English, we're accused of being racist!



quote:
In England proper


??? There is only one, hehe. Sorry, couldn't resist that one!



quote:
It has not been that bad in Scotland for a long time but there are still those who call the English Sasannach and refuse to speak English. You tend to find those who feel this way in the Highlands. My Gaelic teacher knew some.


My father-in-law was from the Highlands, but moved to london shortly before my ex-husband was born, and died a few years ago. He never lost his Scottishness and would often have a rant about the sasannachs, and we'd answer him in equally unflattering terms! All very good-natured though, that's what it tends to be like for most I think, a friendly rivalry.

Och, now you've sent me down memory lane!!!! :)

BB

[Krom]

Originally posted by ladyrowan
No problem, I can see it could be a bit confusing!

Anyway, just a few friendly points.......

quote:
Many of non-english are not interested in being a part of the United Kingdom/Great Britian any more.


Many English feel exactly the same way. It often feels that we are the only ones not allowed to have an identity of our own. If we say we're proud to be English, we're accused of being racist!



quote:
In England proper


??? There is only one, hehe. Sorry, couldn't resist that one!



quote:
It has not been that bad in Scotland for a long time but there are still those who call the English Sasannach and refuse to speak English. You tend to find those who feel this way in the Highlands. My Gaelic teacher knew some.


My father-in-law was from the Highlands, but moved to london shortly before my ex-husband was born, and died a few years ago. He never lost his Scottishness and would often have a rant about the sasannachs, and we'd answer him in equally unflattering terms! All very good-natured though, that's what it tends to be like for most I think, a friendly rivalry.

Och, now you've sent me down memory lane!!!! :)

BB

Thanks ladyrowen for the examples...I almost doubled over thinking about your ex-father-in-laws responses. Touche on the England Proper:) I am glad things are being a bit more friendly. The 70's and 80's saw a lot of misery.

Once again thanks for overlooking my oversights.

MP B*B
Krom

[Twig]

Please keep threads to the subject . In this case, Reincarnation In Druidry.

Other topics can be put in a new thread or pmed to the person.

Thanks for your support.

Twig

[ladyrowan]

Very sorry, smacked myself on the wrist and won't do it again. :o

BB

[Krom]

Originally posted by Twig
Please keep threads to the subject . In this case, Reincarnation In Druidry.

Other topics can be put in a new thread or pmed to the person.

Thanks for your support.

Twig

Well Noted

[thefluiddruid]

The Mabinogi does indeed give some exelent examples of transmigration.
However I was taught that the soul creates the body that it inhabits, not take over (or possess) another spirits body.
As far as the wells/stones/homes that spirits inhabits, this is more of a case of haunting (not neccesarily in a negitive way) than transmigration.

[Twig]

Greetings Friend, and welcome to MW. I think you'll findmany fine people here and I for one value your input and comments. Perhaps you'ld like to start a new thread to introduce yourself. [maybe we can drum some business your way.8O]

Hey Mol! We got another webmaster here! Hehehe

Back to the thread!

[QUOTE]I was taught that the soul creates the body that it inhabits QUOTE]

Interesting concept. I'm of the opinion that a higher power matches the soul with the body required for the lifes lesson.

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[thefluiddruid]

Originally posted by Twig
Greetings Friend, and welcome to MW. I think you'll findmany fine people here and I for one value your input and comments. Perhaps you'ld like to start a new thread to introduce yourself. [maybe we can drum some business your way.8O]

Ok, I'll do that next...


Interesting concept. I'm of the opinion that a higher power matches the soul with the body required for the lifes lesson.



Actually I wasn'r referring to the body that the individuals incarned into, but the temporary state of being that they were in while between human bodies..It's kind of hard to explain, like when Tailisin went from one form to another trying to excape...

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by thefluiddruid
The Mabinogi does indeed give some exelent examples of transmigration. However I was taught that the soul creates the body that it inhabits, not take over (or possess) another spirits body. As far as the wells/stones/homes that spirits inhabits, this is more of a case of haunting (not neccesarily in a negitive way) than transmigration.

Thank you. That's what I have been trying to say. :D

[Twig]

It's kind of hard to explain, like when Tailisin went from one form to another trying to excape

Now I understand. ;)
Thanks!

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[thefluiddruid]

Originally posted by Twig


Now I understand. ;)
Thanks!


Your Welcome, glad to help.

[Krom]

Originally posted by thefluiddruid
The Mabinogi does indeed give some exelent examples of transmigration.
However I was taught that the soul creates the body that it inhabits, not take over (or possess) another spirits body.
As far as the wells/stones/homes that spirits inhabits, this is more of a case of haunting (not neccesarily in a negitive way) than transmigration.

That is a interesting way of looking at it. From a Cultural Anthropologic view and by definition; Transmigration happens at the time of death. Taliesin did not die until the last shape which was the grain; he shape shifted into the different forms. So by definition this is not transmigration.

The way I understood transmigration is that the Soul/Spirit usually inhabits a well, stone, standing tree, or an animal for a time. It seems to be connected to ancestor worship.

I do have a question for you; would not creating a new body be reincarnation? Transmigration and reincarnation are two different concepts. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

MP B*B
Krom

[thefluiddruid]

Transmigration is the spirit inhabiting a none human living form, such as a fish, bird, etc...This is more akin to shape shifting than re-incarnation.
Reincarnation is when the spirit is born onto a new body.
Not inhabiting one that it creates without the birth process.

The spirit inhabiting a none living structure is Haunting.

[Twig]

Ok, how do ya'll interpret this situation? I found out my spirit guide is a past incarnation of myself. Although I accept this w/out question, how could I have my own soul yet be guided by what I know is a prior "self"??? It's a dichotamy to say the least!!!!

Comments? [Other than I'm crazy as a loon!]

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[Mairwen]

Different time lines on different planes/universes? There's more, but I'm not awake.

[Krom]

Originally posted by thefluiddruid
Transmigration is the spirit inhabiting a none human living form, such as a fish, bird, etc...This is more akin to shape shifting than re-incarnation.
Reincarnation is when the spirit is born onto a new body.
Not inhabiting one that it creates without the birth process.

The spirit inhabiting a none living structure is Haunting.

Ummm... By definition Transmigration is to pass into a another body after death; as in the Soul. I would not call this shape shifting. You do not have to die to shape shift. I know that in Anthropology that they consider the soul moving into another object, well, tree, body etc ,without the rebirth motif, transmigration not reincarnation. By definition to haunt is to visit or appear as a ghost or spirit. That does not cover the spirit/soul of a person entering into a standing stone or a tree and becoming that thing for a time being. Now if the spririt was to come out of the object and visit then it would, by definition, be a haunting.

It seems to be that we see this different. Maybe we have reached the point of We agree to disagree.:)

MP B*B
Krom

[Pele_Oak]

I really think modern pagans/witches/druids have an over simplistic view of what happens to the soul.

I think from just the stuff I've studied they had concepts like
1. shape shifting
2. reincarnation
3. transmigration (the soul inhabiting a rock/animal)
4. Soul theft/loss
5. multiple places to go afterdeath...not just the summerland, happy hunting grounds, avalon, ect

I know that even in modern gaelic the terms for death are "changed or traveled"

I know that the soul was usually imaged (at the time of death)as a flying creture (bird, insect)

I think we try to make all these different co-existing concepts one concept because of our own cultural biases! We want a neet tidy little theory...everything must connect into a unified one truth and as a result we ignore difficult concepts or culturally alien concepts (such as soul loss or transmigration) and substitute concepts we are more familiar with (such as Hindu Reincarnation and Karma ideas).

I think our religions have as a result a shallow world view of the afterlife/otherworlds when compaired with the diversity our ancestors seem to have had. It is clear the celtic afterworld was more complicated than either we all go to the happy land or we all reincarnate. Yet those are the two basic concepts taught all others are sort of scofted at, ignored or called superstition sadly. Frankly I doubt any ancient druid would have believed in the type of afterlife concepts taught today.

:) Pele

[Mairwen]

I beg to differ here, but transmigration is MORE than a soul inhabiting a rock or a tree or a bird or a fish or whatever.

[Draeconin]

Originally posted by thefluiddruid
Transmigration is the spirit inhabiting a none human living form, such as a fish, bird, etc...This is more akin to shape shifting than re-incarnation.
Reincarnation is when the spirit is born onto a new body.
Not inhabiting one that it creates without the birth process.

The spirit inhabiting a none living structure is Haunting.

Gotta differ with ya, here. Transmigration is the transfer of the spirit to any other living form. This could be human, plant or animal, though the last is the form most commonly thought of.

No mundane source for the following info. Take or leave it as you wish. :)

Transfer into another human host isn't common, though, as the body must be vacant (by preference) of inhabiting spirit and in good enough condition to support life. Displacing the host spirit is possible, but only if that spirit is either extremely weak or weak-willed (almost to the point of extinguishment), or willing.

[Mairwen]

Thank you, Draeconin. I've been trying to answer this and never can get what I want to say to make sense. :p

[WildSpirit]

Okay...and I am officially...lost. lol

[Twig]

Lost? Heheheh,I agree.There is enough here to boggle ANYONE!:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

To summerize to this point. Due to the lack of good archealogical evidence, we don't know EXACTLY what the druidic afterlife belief system was. Due to the expanse ofthe druidic influence at it's height[most of Europe], I can only assume that there was variation in the life after death belief system[hmmm, just like this thread!].

So as I've said before draw your own conclusions and follow your heart. It won't lead you wrong.

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[Draeconin]

Originally posted by Twig

To summerize to this point. Due to the lack of good archealogical evidence, we don't know EXACTLY what the druidic afterlife belief system was.

If all you're looking at is the archeological evidence, you're quite right. But in looking at the myths and legends (in those areas where they're available), transmigration seems quite evident. Reincarnation? Not so evident. (However, I firmly believe in it, myself.) The only instance I can think of that could be interpreted that way is in the legend of Kerridwen and Gwion wherein Kerridwen, in the form of a chicken, eats Gwion, who's in the form of a cereal grain, and later gives birth to Taliesin. However, there are other interpretations that can be given that story as well.

[Druidess Cara]

I agree with Twig, just follow your heart and believe what you believe . :0)

[thefluiddruid]

Originally posted by Draeconin


If all you're looking at is the archeological evidence, you're quite right. But in looking at the myths and legends (in those areas where they're available), transmigration seems quite evident. Reincarnation? Not so evident. (However, I firmly believe in it, myself.) The only instance I can think of that could be interpreted that way is in the legend of Kerridwen and Gwion wherein Kerridwen, in the form of a chicken, eats Gwion, who's in the form of a cereal grain, and later gives birth to Taliesin. However, there are other interpretations that can be given that story as well.
That example is what I was taught transmugration was.
As far as re-incarnation, it depends on how you define it.
If you mean being born into a human form in this world, well I have seen no evidence of the Celtic people believing that way.
However they did believe that after death in this world you would be re-born in another physical world.
In fact they believed that so strongly that in many cases finacial depts were considered payable in the next world.

[Draeconin]

Originally posted by thefluiddruid
That example is what I was taught transmugration was.
As I said, the story is open to other interpretations. :) To me, it's a stretch to call it reincarnation, but some would. Like most such stories, though, there are layers upon layers of meaning - some probably intended, others...? Who knows which is which?


As far as re-incarnation, it depends on how you define it.
If you mean being born into a human form in this world, well I have seen no evidence of the Celtic people believing that way.
Agreed. :)

However they did believe that after death in this world you would be re-born in another physical world.
In fact they believed that so strongly that in many cases finacial depts were considered payable in the next world.
I've seen reference to that, yes. But I haven't decided, for myself, just what condition(s) it refers to, exactly.