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mothwench
March 3rd, 2004, 10:52 AM
:foh: i just read in a thread here on MW that Catholics are not Christians, and that they even take offense at being associated with Christianity and vice-versa. honestly i can say this is the first time i've heard this, i was raised catholic, and i went to a catholic school when i was little, nuns, uniforms, the lot. the thread was closed, so i can't post there anymore. anyway, for those of you who say catholisism is not a christian religion, what religion is it? pagan? :foh:
so now i'm curious, and i've turned this into a poll, to see what you guys think.

ah, hang on, i think i might have read something about that in another thread... if only i could remember...

ckynes1968
March 3rd, 2004, 11:14 AM
Remembering my catholic school teachings....All of the Protestant religions broke away from Catholicism so I would say that is is definitely a Christian religion.

Morr
March 3rd, 2004, 11:16 AM
Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. Whether Catholics like it or not.
Its true, though, that Catholicism is the FIRST or ORIGINAL Christianity that grew... But into the middle ages, it broke off to the Western, Catholic Church, and the Eastern Greek Orthodox Church... and then of course come the Protestants, and the rest of em...

But if you're worshipping Jesus... You're doing the Christianity thing...

Mab
March 3rd, 2004, 11:35 AM
Who said Catholics aren't Christians? That just plain doesn't make sense. The definition of Christianity, at it's most basic, is a religion or denomination that believes that Jesus Christ was born the Son of God, born of a virgin named Mary, was crucified & rose again on the 3rd day. Now, I was raised Baptist, but I went to Catholic schools for 6 years & have a lot of Catholic friends, and my dad converted to Catholic a few years back--and the best I can tell that's EXACTLY what Catholicism believes! The Roman Catholic Church did swipe a lot of pagan practices centuries ago in the attempt to convert the world, but that doesn't mean that Catholics aren't Christians!

Wow!! That's just a way new one on me.

Equinox
March 3rd, 2004, 11:43 AM
It depends on how you define Christian (I’m going to use xtn to save space, the contraction is based on the Greek name for Christ, and many xtns use it too. If you are offended, I’m sorry in advance!)

Here are 3 ways to define “Christian”:

1. If you define xtn as one who worships or follows Jesus, then Catholics are xtn, as are mormons, JWs, Gnostics, Pentacostals and many others. Being that this is the definition in most dictionaries, this is what I prefer to use. Thus, Catholics are definitely xtn. Based on this, there are 2 – 2.2 billion xtns.

2. Many conservative Christians (and many Catholics) require that to be xtn, you have to believe in the tenets in the Nicene Creed. Based on this the Catholics are clearly xtn, - after all, their church comes straight from those who wrote it in 325 CE. Most other denominations are xtn too, but not the JWs, Gnostics, etc. The Nicene creed was put together to specifically refute Gnosticism, Arianism, Marcionism, Montanism, and the others that had sprung up after Jesus' death. Thus, if you read it carefully, you will see it is a litany against alternative Christianities such as these (http://www.abelard.org/heresies/heresies.htm).

Here is the Nicene creed:
http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html
based on this, there are probably about 2 billion xtns.

3. A depressingly large number of xtns (especially their leaders) believe that their particular sect is the only true xtn church, and that all others are misled by the devil or otherwise heretical (there are between 5 and 8,000 Christian denominations). This is especially evident if you ask them about things like the meaning of the sacraments, whether or not it is ok to pray to saints, what baptism means or does, what happens during the Eucharist, how one is saved, what the role of women is, what will happen at the second coming, etc…… If this rule is used, then there are only a small number of real xtns (like dozens, hundreds or thousands), and many who are misled.

In summary, by at least 2 of the definitions, Catholics are Christian. Catholics have at least as strong a claim to being Christian as any other Christian does, and probably a stronger claim than all others. Having been raised Catholic, I know my family considered itself Christian, and we would often recited creeds and oaths in church that explicitly stated we were Christian, like “… I will strive to be a good Catholic, a good Christian.”


-Equinox

Avalon
March 3rd, 2004, 11:45 AM
I voted yes. Catholics are just another sect of Christianity. I am also pretty amazed that someone thought that it wasn't. :huh:

Rockprincess
March 3rd, 2004, 11:47 AM
Strangely enough, at least here in western North America, there IS the perception held by protestants of all kinds that the term "Christian" does not include catholics. I suppose they are trying to differentiate themselves from the Catholics' deference to the pope.

In my mind...there is no difference. They all worship Christ...which is where the term came from. In fact, the word Catholic has NO religious significance outside of it's connotations (unlike "Christian") since the word "catholic" means "all encompasing" or "universal", which is why the church was CALLED the Catholic Church - it was the sole religious institution for hundreds of years, so it was the Universal Church.

Bran83
March 3rd, 2004, 11:55 AM
Im the one who made the statement. It got out of hand and by the end I was just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and had my back all up in the corner. What I was trying to state was that where I am from when someone says they are christian its usually Protestant, baptist...ect. I was always taught that when you refer to what religion you are you say your catholic, and you dont say you are christian cause that implies you are Protestant. And I was also trying to say how the sects dont always like to associate themselves with the other. In Methodism, I think. I had a friend say that in her religion all people not Methodist go to hell. Catholics are christians. But the point i was trying to state is that not all the sects like to be associated with each other or they find themselves to be teh only true christians.

I was also in a rush while typing that and didnt read over it..... as I have printed on the bottom of that post...sorry for the sloppiness as I have class in like five minutes and i just wanted to add to this....... But again I was being stupid and let my emotions and the stress of midterms get the best of me and deffeated a lot of my own personal morals in debating. If any of you were offended my appologies as that was not my intention.

Rockprincess
March 3rd, 2004, 12:07 PM
No worries Bran, I understood where you were coming from in that argument, I think it just got out of hand. And you're certainly not the first person I've heard it from. I think the distinction comes more often from protestant sects than from Catholics though, as they obviously consider themselves christian :)

Calzaer
March 3rd, 2004, 12:14 PM
Catholics are the ONLY Christians. Protestants have just been winging it for the last few hundred years - which is why you have a thousand different Protestant churches and only two Catholic churches that aren't really any different except in who they call Pope/Patriarch.

Let's see here... the Catholic church was founded and guided by folks who actually wandered around the countryside with Jesus himself... but Martin Luther knew better. *nodnod* Absolutely.

Of course, this is all just devil's advocate stuff here.. I personally think that if any of the Abrahamic religions are correct, it has to be Judaism. You can't tell me that a god who says "It is not what goes into one's mouth that defiles a man, it is what comes out of one's mouth that defiles a man" is the same god who said "These commandments will last FOREVER, and one of them is don't eat anything on this list."

Morr
March 3rd, 2004, 12:48 PM
Catholics are the ONLY Christians. Protestants have just been winging it for the last few hundred years - which is why you have a thousand different Protestant churches and only two Catholic churches that aren't really any different except in who they call Pope/Patriarch.

Let's see here... the Catholic church was founded and guided by folks who actually wandered around the countryside with Jesus himself... but Martin Luther knew better. *nodnod* Absolutely.

Of course, this is all just devil's advocate stuff here.. I personally think that if any of the Abrahamic religions are correct, it has to be Judaism. You can't tell me that a god who says "It is not what goes into one's mouth that defiles a man, it is what comes out of one's mouth that defiles a man" is the same god who said "These commandments will last FOREVER, and one of them is don't eat anything on this list."

Catholics need to take a very good look in the mirror because they made up all this mumbo jumbo about jesus & Christianity - Peter was a nut case who totally misinterperted what Jesus said. He took out of Jesus' teachings so much. Paul, was on a mad power trip, he was so jealous or Peter for being so famous and popular cause he was the so called "continuer" (i have no idea if thats even a word LOL) of Jesus' teachings. So he pretty much did everything he possibly could to gain power & popularity by writing stuff about Jesus & Christianity and "spreading the word". Dont even get me started on the Fathers of the Church - most of all St. Augustine, who was a sexualy frustrated bitter old man. He INVENTED "Original Sin" - Jesus NEVER EVER said anything about this sort of stuff. Catholics can be dubbed Christian Pagans because 90% of their holidays, saints & rituals come from old Pagan traditions, and they "turned" the one God (originally the Jews' Y-H-V-H) into a 3 faced god (which lets face it, they treat these 3 "faces of god" as 3 seperate godly beings). They worship pictures & statues, they have the absolutely crazy Eucharist sacrament.
The Protestants were actually "ok" with their views becasue they were all like "Holy Mother Of God - All this stuff you guys are doing - WRONG! Jesus never allowed to worship Saints or statues or pictures of him or God (seeing as Jesus was a Jew who followed Judaism and according to Judaism, worshiping statues is a BIG no~no). They were also like "What the heck is wrong with you catholics - The Eucharist deal is TOTALLY blowen out of proportion - Jesus was using metaphor when he said "... this is my body.... this is my blood..."... etc.

Its very sad though, that instead of being united in their worship of Christianity (though they may have different views of the religion), that they fight & scorn each other, and claim that one is the only right Christian path, and the rest are not Christian at all...

Conclusion - People are hypocrites. Jesus is probably laying up in his heavenly bed now, having a migrane and begging for a cold glass of water from one of his angel pals, because of all the Christian crazyness happening in our world - Stuff he never ever talked about, or imagined would be.

Equinox
March 3rd, 2004, 01:20 PM
thanks, Morr, for mentioning (albeit more aggressively than I would have) some of the things I was going to mention about the weak link between Jesus and Catholicism.

Also, don’t forget that the reformation was an attempt to return to Augustine, so you may not want to slam him while letting the protestants off the hook. It’s no coincidence that Luther was an Augustinian monk.

-Equinox

Bran83
March 3rd, 2004, 01:42 PM
Conclusion - People are hypocrites. Jesus is probably laying up in his heavenly bed now, having a migrane and begging for a cold glass of water from one of his angel pals, because of all the Christian crazyness happening in our world - Stuff he never ever talked about, or imagined would be.


Couldnt have said it better myself.

Morr
March 3rd, 2004, 01:57 PM
thanks, Morr, for mentioning (albeit more aggressively than I would have) some of the things I was going to mention about the weak link between Jesus and Catholicism.

Also, don’t forget that the reformation was an attempt to return to Augustine, so you may not want to slam him while letting the protestants off the hook. It’s no coincidence that Luther was an Augustinian monk.

-Equinox

True, but I didnt say that the Protestants were 100% on the dot. To be honest - if theres a sect of Jesus followers that are the closest to what Jesus saw in his vision of the "reformed Judaism" that would be the Messianic Jews. They are 100% Jews, yet they view him as the messiah.

mato
March 3rd, 2004, 02:45 PM
It all depends on what your definition of xtianity is...

Calzaer
March 3rd, 2004, 05:40 PM
It WOULD, however, be nice if any two Protestants could agree on what the "teachings of Jesus" actually are.... but then we wouldn't have 450 different protestant denominations listed in our phone book! :lol:

I also never understood why, if the Protestants think the Catholics are SO wrong, they still use the New Testament that the Catholics compiled in the first place. The only books they threw out were in the Old Testament - and to be honest, the OT makes a heck of a lot more sense if you keep Tobit in there, at the very least.

Equinox
March 3rd, 2004, 06:36 PM
Calzaer wrote:


could agree on what the "teachings of Jesus" actually are....

(and that's even after they have agreed to use the same scripture! - imagine what it was like in 200 CE when the different Christianities had different holy books!)



they still use the New Testament that the Catholics compiled in the first place.
Yes, though Luther did call the book of James an "epistle of straw", and almost moved it to the back of the Bible or got rid of it entirely. He was of course riled by the emphasis in James over the goodness of works, which was one of his main complaints against catholicism.

-Equinox

Heathen Dawn
March 4th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Catholics are the first Christian church and they take pride in it (http://www.whostartedyourchurch.com/). The Greek-Orthodox Church broke out from it in 1054, and the Prods beginning in 1517. The Mormon Church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) and the Watchtower Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses) appeared in the 19th century.

Those are the historical facts. But if you ask every one of those sects, each will say they’re the original church. Greek-Orthodox church members will say it was the Roman Catholics who broke out from the original in 1054. Protestants will say the early church were “Bible Christians” just like they are, and they restored the church to its purity as opposed to the innovations of popery. Mormons likewise say there was a great apostasy in the early church and that the CoJCoLDS is the restored originality of the gospel. The internecine warfare between Christians can be fun to watch. ;)

nighstar
March 4th, 2004, 07:47 PM
Catholics are the ONLY Christians.

i disagree.... ^^; that's all i'll say..... >_>;

ambermystique
March 5th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Christianity is to Catholicism as Solar System is to Earth=true

hmmmm...yep, that's what I meant to say...


peace and love,
amber

Leander
March 5th, 2004, 12:26 PM
Strangely enough, at least here in western North America, there IS the perception held by protestants of all kinds that the term "Christian" does not include catholics. I suppose they are trying to differentiate themselves from the Catholics' deference to the pope.

In my mind...there is no difference. They all worship Christ...which is where the term came from. In fact, the word Catholic has NO religious significance outside of it's connotations (unlike "Christian") since the word "catholic" means "all encompasing" or "universal", which is why the church was CALLED the Catholic Church - it was the sole religious institution for hundreds of years, so it was the Universal Church.

I think this is a very WASP (White Anglo Saxon Protestant) view. In America, especially during the 1920s, the WASPs (who mainly lived in rural areas) were very aversed to the huge numbers of immigrants coming to their country. Apart from the obvious racial tensions (eg KKK) of the time, the WASP way of thinking generated tensions between all non-Protestant denominations, particularly Catholicism. Therefore, I suppose that if somebody was brought up in a very traditional American Protestant home, they may have been taught that Catholicism is not a part of Christianity.

Rockprincess
March 5th, 2004, 12:45 PM
Therefore, I suppose that if somebody was brought up in a very traditional American Protestant home, they may have been taught that Catholicism is not a part of Christianity.
That makes sense :) I hadn't really thought it through before as to WHY that opinion was so prevalent around here.

Heathen Dawn
March 5th, 2004, 07:16 PM
Go to any Protestant discussion board and you’ll see the amazing intensity of vitriol lashed against the Catholics. The Prods call the Roman Church the “Whore of Babylon”. Prods and Catholics are incapable of living in the same room, except if a Mormon is present (then they unite for a short time).

ambermystique
March 6th, 2004, 06:16 AM
Go to any Protestant discussion board and you’ll see the amazing intensity of vitriol lashed against the Catholics. The Prods call the Roman Church the “Whore of Babylon”. Prods and Catholics are incapable of living in the same room, except if a Mormon is present (then they unite for a short time).
makes absolutely no sense to me...considering any sect of Christianity is literally a "side bar" of Catholicism. I'm quite confused...doesn't take much obviously...
peace and love,
amber

NiceWookie
March 6th, 2004, 06:38 AM
I'll just repeat what I said before...if it has Jesus as the son of God/Savior of man and has the Bible as the main book...it's more or less Christian in my opinion.

If various denominations want to duke out for the crown of the "one true TM" Christian tradition...fine with me, though I do find that very, very odd indeed.

Of course since these religions, like all the rest, are made up of individual practioners, one person's Christianity is another persons cult and visa versa. I think I'll just be content to stay out of it as much as possible.

Heathen Dawn
March 6th, 2004, 07:45 PM
makes absolutely no sense to me...considering any sect of Christianity is literally a "side bar" of Catholicism. I'm quite confused...doesn't take much obviously...

The Protestants claim the Catholic Church has added “doctrine of men” to the scriptural gospel, such as the need for works in addition to faith for being saved. Catholic institutes such as penance and the Mass are under fire from them for being “unbiblical”.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth (http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp) (a Catholic defence)

ambermystique
March 6th, 2004, 11:16 PM
The Protestants claim the Catholic Church has added “doctrine of men” to the scriptural gospel, such as the need for works in addition to faith for being saved. Catholic institutes such as penance and the Mass are under fire from them for being “unbiblical”.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth (http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp) (a Catholic defence)Even if this is the case, there is still the undeniable fact that Christianity is called such because one must view Christ as the Son of God, which Catholics definitely do. Nevertheless, there are always the people out there who will disagree with me. One thing that really irks me though....is how there is this massive "competition" to be the true Christians. (I guess that's what comes with living in a capitalist nation...maybe its the same way in other countries too?) Seems to me that the only way to be a "true Christian" is to do so by acts and kindness and faithfullness, not just by "claiming" that your way is the right way.

peace and love,
amber

blueiris
March 7th, 2004, 11:13 AM
I asked my friend about this - her dad overheard and said, Of course we're not Christians! We're Catholics! in this angry voice. I just thought that if you accepted Christ as the savior you were Christian, end of story...

redthewitch75
March 7th, 2004, 11:20 AM
I voted no. I was raised Catholic, and I just never thought of myself as *Christian*. That is just my humble opinion. But, I guess in actuality Catholics are Christian. But, "Hello, I am Catholic" and "Hello, I am Christian" bring to mind different connotations for me. No offense to any Catholics or Christians.

Aine of the Fae
March 7th, 2004, 11:26 AM
I'd have to say that Catholic's are, by definition, Christian. Talk to my husband on the other hand and you'll get a different answer, although he's starting to realize the one-sidedness of his upbringing. He was raised in a fundamental Baptist church and later went to what could be pretty darn near called a cult. Then along came me and shook up everything he'd ever believed.... and he just put a dragon alter in his bedroom. Now I've just got to get my room cleaned since he moved out of it....

Bran83
March 7th, 2004, 12:48 PM
What people tend to forget is that just because it seems that its one way doesnt actually make it so. For instance.... most Fundamentalist will tell you that Pagans are in a cult and worship satan and practice black magick. Actuality of the situation.... Most Fundies donate 10-20% of their check to the church out of obligation. They think the devil has the same or more power then god, and when I was at my store they were praying for its destruction..... so jus because you say your something doesnt mean you abide or agee with it. Even though it would be sensable that way....its not that way.

AuroraSilvermist
March 14th, 2004, 11:40 PM
Uh, yeah. I was raised Catholic. (I survived, praise cheeses!) Catholics consider themselves Christian. At least every Catholic I ever encountered, from parishioner to mass server to nun to priest...did. And not only Christians, but THE Christians. We were kind and eccumenical, but we all knew in our hearts that everyone else was going straight to hell. Poor bastards. :lol:

Tarotboy4
March 15th, 2004, 02:06 AM
"3. A depressingly large number of xtns (especially their leaders) believe that their particular sect is the only true xtn church, and that all others are misled by the devil or otherwise heretical (there are between 5 and 8,000 Christian denominations). "

don't you wish they could just pick one and get on with there lives? This is one of my bigges pet peeves about xt's of all branches.

Doodlebug
March 15th, 2004, 04:10 AM
Go to any Protestant discussion board and you’ll see the amazing intensity of vitriol lashed against the Catholics. The Prods call the Roman Church the “Whore of Babylon”. Prods and Catholics are incapable of living in the same room, except if a Mormon is present (then they unite for a short time).

I know this is true of a local Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church in my town. However, I don't think that this is true of the more mainline Protestant denominations such as United Methodist and Presbyterian.

mothwench
March 15th, 2004, 05:22 AM
okay. so... let me see if i got this: catholics are christians, but are not seen that way by baptists, protestants etc. vice versa the protestants are christians, but are seen as heretics or heathens by the catholics... sheesh. well do the baptists and the protestants for example, get along at least?

Marchosias
March 15th, 2004, 07:41 AM
However, I don't think that this is true of the more mainline Protestant denominations such as United Methodist and Presbyterian.


You would be surprised. The hatred between the Protestants and Catholics runs deeper than it may appear.

Xentor
March 15th, 2004, 09:35 AM
Yup. Know that from personal experience. Mom is a cath, dad used to be protestant. He turned cath to marry my mom. His parents and her parents hated each other's guts.

Xentor
March 15th, 2004, 09:43 AM
don't you wish they could just pick one and get on with there lives? This is one of my bigges pet peeves about xt's of all branches.

I'd like that, but they can't. They seem to believe their way is the only and ultimate Truth, inspired by God Himself. So anyone else claiming the same thing for their little spot in christianity, must surely be heretics.

Claiming to have the only truth is a recurring pattern in most of christianity, the islam and the jewish faith. One could argue, that this stems from God being perceived as the only true / real God, in a mostly polytheic world, so many thousands of years ago.

Kaylara
March 15th, 2004, 10:12 AM
Well, I don't know about the Catholics not thinking themselves Christian, but I know the Protestants in this country do not think the Catholics are... They're fanatical about them having the "One True Way" and heaven forbid someone else has another idea about divinity or how to practice it. And it's kind of hard to give any respect to another religion when you're sure that you have the one and only correct way... Most of the Catholics I know don't really care though... Pretty laid back actually...

Heathen Dawn
March 16th, 2004, 08:43 AM
well do the baptists and the protestants for example, get along at least?

Baptists are Protestants.

I feel great affinity between Wicca and Catholicism. Both religions employ symbolic ritual in their spirituality rather than poring over scriptures all day. The Mass, where bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of the God, seems to me very similar to the Great Rite where the athame is dipped into a chalice full of wine to symbolise the union of Goddess and God. Both Wicca and Catholicism use symbolism to transmit a Divine Mystery. Mahayana Buddhism and Shi’i Islam do so too. Whereas Orthodox Judaism, Protestant Christianity, Sunni Islam and Theravada Buddhism are relatively unemotional religions that involve reading scriptures all the time. The two religion groups have different grammars, so to speak.

Radocs
March 16th, 2004, 02:30 PM
They believe in Christ. Makes 'em christians in my book.

lednevir
March 16th, 2004, 06:19 PM
perhaps they ment that they are about love like jesus said "God is love" alot of Catholic beliefs they call 'traditions"

Merlinawakend777
April 18th, 2004, 07:47 PM
well i was raised catholic, and i belive in the possibi.ity of jusus, but
i am not chrisitian, essentialy i am pagan, but i prefer to be clled ecclectic.
nopt ecclectic, wiccan but just ecclectic.

and i have always heard catholics are christian.

but i also always hear, baptist being the ones, that say catholics are not.

i live in a very bible beltish sone LOL

soilsigh aingeal
April 19th, 2004, 10:11 AM
I grew up and went to a Methodist church (and just to get this part straight...) I never once heard anyone say that if you're not methodist than you're going to hell. I only heard that if you didn't believe in God and Jesus. Therefor, whether they or anyone else likes it or not, Catholics are Christain.

Rhiara
May 2nd, 2004, 08:04 AM
I was raised Catholic, but in a pretty relaxed way. All the priests/nuns/brothers I knew pretty much thought that it was intent that got you into heaven, but Catholics have a better chance. But they were mostly Jesuits, so they actually had good brains, that might be why they weren't zealots...I would say that ehy worship Christ, so they are Christian.

On the reverse side, my friend who is a Congregationalist says that Catholics are heathens because they worship Mary (a WOMAN!! GASP!!) and the Saints, which is a contradiction of Commandment One: I am the Lord your god, thou shalt not have any other gods before me. Plus Catholics have statues of Jesus and Mary in their churches, and the cross with Jesus on it is technically a statue/"graven image" so that's against the second commandment. So in answer to the question: It depends on whose point of view you are thinking of. I suppose it's neither here nor there. But no Catholics I have known think of themselves as "not Christian".

Convallaria
May 2nd, 2004, 12:34 PM
<i>Catholics can be dubbed Christian Pagans because 90% of their holidays, saints & rituals come from old Pagan traditions, and they "turned" the one God (originally the Jews' Y-H-V-H) into a 3 faced god (which lets face it, they treat these 3 "faces of god" as 3 seperate godly beings). They worship pictures & statues, they have the absolutely crazy Eucharist sacrament</i>

(most of what I'm going to say has already been said but I need to get it out of my system)

I always felt closer to catholosim than any other form of christianity because it felt more like paganism than anything. Honoring the Father Son and Holy Ghost felt like honoring the Mother, Maiden and Crone. The holidays all feel very pagan to me, even in color scheme :D. Of course the one main difference is Jesus, which means that Catholics are Christian... Christian means to believe in Jesus and that they do...

Flutterby_whispers
May 22nd, 2004, 12:20 AM
I am always amazed when this question is asked, I've heard it a lot and it still shocks me lol I think the most shocking was when someone came to me and said that mormons aren't christians either. It's almost getting to the point where no one's Christian anymore b/c they've lost the point of what Christianity is and or get so caught up in what is and what isn't that there's no longer room to be religious.

:hmmmmm:


mothwench says:
okay. so... let me see if i got this: catholics are christians, but are not seen that way by baptists, protestants etc. vice versa the protestants are christians, but are seen as heretics or heathens by the catholics... sheesh. well do the baptists and the protestants for example, get along at least?

We can add to this if you like :hehehehe: Any baptist that I've come across dislikes mormons.

I will have to admit that I find it somewhat amusing? interesting? How so many christians will argue against one another in such ways.


Radocs says:
They believe in Christ. Makes 'em christians in my book

yup ditto :uhhuhuh:

bellamandu
May 23rd, 2004, 04:08 PM
ok this is kinda off topic but....


whats this about if your not buried in a catholic (er, church i guess?) graveyard, u burn in hell for all eternity? :confused: heheheh. or something like that. :devil: dont ask. lol

rhinoa
May 28th, 2004, 07:39 AM
Catholics are christians as far as I have always been taught. They all worship the same trinity, just in slightly different ways.

RogueEcho
May 28th, 2004, 12:01 PM
:foh: i just read in a thread here on MW that Catholics are not Christians, and that they even take offense at being associated with Christianity and vice-versa. honestly i can say this is the first time i've heard this, i was raised catholic, and i went to a catholic school when i was little, nuns, uniforms, the lot. the thread was closed, so i can't post there anymore. anyway, for those of you who say catholisism is not a christian religion, what religion is it? pagan? :foh:
so now i'm curious, and i've turned this into a poll, to see what you guys think.

ah, hang on, i think i might have read something about that in another thread... if only i could remember...


I was brought up a good Catholic girl, and I can safely tell you that yes, Catholics are Christians, but not Christian in the sense of Protestantism. It's rather interesting. Protestantism and its offshoots are the last in the line of break-aways from original, first-century first generation after the apostles Christianity (because, remember, Jesus and the apostles were JEWISH, not Christian -- St. Paul was probably the one that made Christianity more a seperate religion than a messianic sect of Judiasm). Originally, there were about as many different sects of Christianity as there are paganism today. The Council of Nicea under the Roman Emperor Constantine codified beliefs, declaring some heresy, etc etc -- some churches, such as (I believe) the Eithopian Orthodox (Coptic) Church chose to not follow the tenets of Nicea and retained some of the various beliefs that were declared heretical.

It was after the last of the emperors of the Western Empire fell that there was the next serious break between Christian groups, and that was the Orthodox/Catholic split, when the bishop of Rome (the pope) and all of the Western clergy essentially stopped listening to what the Emperor in Byzantium said and started making their own new rules. I believe at the time that the higher-ups of the Eastern Empire believed in the heretical Arianism at the time, too, so that was even further reason for the break.

Of course, then there was the Protestant break during the Reformation, and many other things in between. Still and all, though, the point is that Catholics are still Christian. Catholic is actually just another term for Orthodox, and it's used to differentiate between the Church of Rome and the church of the Byzantine Empire (which led to our modern Orthodox churches).

Equinox
May 28th, 2004, 01:05 PM
RogueEcho wrote:

Originally, there were about as many different sects of Christianity as there are Peopleism today. The Council of Nicea under the Roman Emperor Constantine codified beliefs, declaring some heresy, etc etc

:bangyourh It’s amazing to me how many people (Christians in particular) don’t know this, and seem to think that Christianity has always been only one religion. Thanks for mentioning it.

The dozens of other forms of Christianity were all (mostly) eradicated by the Roman church by around 400 CE. If you’d like to learn about those other Christianities, I recommend ordering these lectures:

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6593.asp (audio form)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195141830/qid=1085748569/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6867012-7485562?v=glance&s=books (book form, $20)

If you get them on audio tape they are just $35, the same you probably spend every month on cable. Which will stoke your spirituality more, a month of cable or learning about these other Christianities? I found that listening to them in my car on my commute worked great.

Blessed be!

-Equinox

RogueEcho
May 28th, 2004, 01:28 PM
It's amazing what the first few weeks of a course in medieval history will teach you ^_^

WrathofCirce
May 30th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Catholicism was the first religion that honored Jesus as the son of God. A lot of Christians look at Catholics as not much better than Pagans, because a lot of their traditions were taken from the Pagans. Also, a lot of the more fundamentalist Christians (how do you get more fundamentalist than the original?) believe that whole saint thing and worshipping of Mary is sick and wrong. Don't ask me. Just more proof that many Christians won't be happy until all feminine power is taken away.

WrathofCirce
May 30th, 2004, 08:47 PM
RogueEcho wrote:


:bangyourh It’s amazing to me how many people (Christians in particular) don’t know this, and seem to think that Christianity has always been only one religion. Thanks for mentioning it.



Until the Council of Nicea, I thought that all other scriptures and followers of Christ dealt purely with political reform, and reform of the Jewish faith. Until the council of Nicea, Jesus was considered to be a profit. Therefor, I doubt you could consider the earlier sects true Christianity.

LadyTrinity
June 1st, 2004, 12:15 AM
:hmmmmm: Just like Wicca is from Pagan :seehearsp ism.

RogueEcho
June 1st, 2004, 12:38 PM
Until the Council of Nicea, I thought that all other scriptures and followers of Christ dealt purely with political reform, and reform of the Jewish faith. Until the council of Nicea, Jesus was considered to be a profit. Therefor, I doubt you could consider the earlier sects true Christianity.


I'm not sure that's entirely correct (and that's not what a lot of historians would say)....Christianity WAS more than a cult of Judiasm well before Constantine and the Council of Nicea -- it had its departure from the Judiac tradition well before then and had been a faith in its own right for at least two centuries beforehand.

Equinox
June 1st, 2004, 02:30 PM
Wrath wrote:


Until the Council of Nicea, I thought that all other scriptures and followers of Christ dealt purely with political reform, and reform of the Jewish faith. Until the council of Nicea, Jesus was considered to be a profit. Therefor, I doubt you could consider the earlier sects true Christianity.

Not really. To learn about the many different Christianities that fought for dominance in the first few centuries after Jesus, I recommend those resources I mentioned in Post #51 above. The classes on tape are easy and fun. There were many very different Christianities, some of which thought Jesus as just a prophet, but others who thought we was all god (not human, didn't have to eat or sleep, etc.), and some who thought there were literally hundreds of other gods.

Have a fun day!

-Equinox

StephanieAine
June 2nd, 2004, 05:36 PM
Catholics are definitely Christians - and every Catholic I've ever known certainly would say so!

*However* - there are some non-Catholic Christians (aka some nondenominational Christians) who say that Catholics aren't Christians - because to them, a Christian can't pray to saints, to Mary, etc. - or through them to pray to God the Father. Plus, Catholics see the Pope as God's representative on earth, which is also something non-Catholics disagree with because they see it as unscriptural. In that viewpoint, one can only be a Christian if they pray solely to God, and in the name of Christ.

My reading of scripture tells me that the definition is connected to whether a person has accepted Jesus Christ's salvation - and Catholicism does worship the triune God, and accept the salvation of Jesus Christ. I don't think that it's right for a Christian to judge another Christian's salvation; if they want to talk scripture, they should present their cause and have a discussion rather than slam a person's denomination.

Aquamarine Dreamer
June 2nd, 2004, 06:47 PM
Yes,as a Catholic I can most honestly say Iam a Christian.Some other Christians call us Pagans because we have statues in our church,so they claim we are worshiping false idols.Some people need to criticize everthinng.Let them classify me however they want.There is nothing wrong w/ being Pagan.I do believe I'm Christian though,I follow what I believe to be the teachings of Jesus,last I knew that made me a Christian.lol.Anyway I think thats where that came from.

WinterTree
June 26th, 2004, 11:48 PM
My answer is yes. Like many of you, I was baptized and raised Catholic. My uncle is a Catholic preist and follows the teachings/preaches the teachings of Jesus just like any Christian minister would. What I was taught about God and Jesus and such growing up was basically the same as any of the little kids I knew who were raised Christian. I honestly don't see how someone could call Catholicism a non-Christian religion.......a Christian is someone who worships Christ, so Catholics are Christians.

seraphx
July 10th, 2004, 01:11 PM
perhaps interesting sidenote:
the root meaning of the word catholic is "universal"

mcc
July 11th, 2004, 05:26 PM
A lot of Protestant extremists (http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/) have this thing about how Catholics aren't Christian. This is basically nothing more or less than the religious equivilent of racism, and the correct response to this is probably to just ignore it.

The Catholics do indeed have a decent chunk of extra doctrine that doesn't flow directly from the bible. But I have a lot of trouble seeing this as particularly different from how the protestant religions behave-- there's a massive amount of interpretation involved in all forms of modern protestantism, and an awful lot of very wierd selective reading of the bible that goes into even the supposedly literalist protestant sects.

The way I see it if you're going to say everything important about the Christian faith should originate with Jesus, that's one thing and makes sense, but if you're going to take the Pauline letters as sacrosanct then I don't really think you have that much room to complain about the Catholics having some extra kind of creative bits in their doctrine...

The High Queen of Faerie
August 1st, 2004, 05:01 AM
i'm sorry if this has been answered, but why would catholics not be christians?

Marchosias
August 4th, 2004, 03:32 AM
i'm sorry if this has been answered, but why would catholics not be christians?


Although you can find out easily by reading the thread, I'll summerize.

Essentially, Protestants believe Catholics are idol worshipers, amoung other things.
Also, some people seem to think Catholisism is somehow different than Christianity, this is mostly a Western/Protestant perception.
There really isn't much to it.

mcc
August 4th, 2004, 03:37 AM
Essentially, Protestants believe Catholics are idol worshipers, amoung other things.
I wonder how many of these people have the little Jesus dashboard statues.

argento_occhi
August 4th, 2004, 08:47 AM
i grew up protestant, but i've always felt an affinity with catholicism, i dunno why, perhaps because it does seem to have 'pagan' 'associations' -- having trouble with words tonight. you know what i mean, i think. i don't know if i'd ever become catholic, but i seem to be the only one in my family who seems to look at catholicism n a favourable light. i believe it's christian. Maybe i'm drawn to it because of a perceived connection between Aset and Mary...

Sleet
August 4th, 2004, 10:57 AM
i grew up protestant, but i've always felt an affinity with catholicism, i dunno why, perhaps because it does seem to have 'People' 'associations' -- having trouble with words tonight. you know what i mean, i think.

Quoth my wife, a Catholic, on why she has no problem being married to a People: "We're not that far apart, we Catholics are People-lite anyway."

Which, ironically, gives a hint about why some flavors of Christianity (Evanglical, mostly) have a problem with Catholics not being Christian, they see Paganism and Christianity as polar opposites.

It's the True Scotsman fallacy, really. Who gets to define what "Christian" is, anyway?

argento_occhi
August 4th, 2004, 11:16 AM
well, yes exctly. who does get to defnie what christian is? And sec ondy, does it matter so much that there is a universal degfinition of christian that encompasses wvery sect that calls itself christian?

Keith Dragon
August 4th, 2004, 11:44 AM
As far as I'm concerned, most Christian faiths in the World today are merely catholics by another name. Their philosophy may vary, but they are all based upon the parameters set forth by the catholic Church. That is, the Catholic Church's vision of a Christ diety they established dogma for back in the 4th century.

Dragon

Aine of the Fae
August 4th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Woohoo I'm gonna have fun with this one.... :D

Ok. Catholicism is NOT the "original" Christian church, however they did a pretty durned good job of wiping out all the others at the council of Nicea (sp?)

I use a very, very basic definition of Christian, one who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus, as they interpret them, based on the information available to them. I don't think they need any specific beliefs about his deity (or lack of) or his death and resurrection (or lack of) because the earliest people who called themselves Christian didn't all agree on this.

Catholics are Christian, they'd tell you they are the only "True Christians" and that all others are going to Hell because "There is no salvation outside of the church." However the Pope has "infallibly" stated that anyone who has not been properly introduced to the Catholic church might get into Heaven, but they'd definitely have to go to Purgatory first....

As far as the Protestant belief that Catholics "worship" Mary and/or the Saints. Officially they only honor them, praying to them so that they'll will pray for them. Kind of like Energy Requests here, we ask people to pray for us or do energy work on our behalf, however we aren't worshipping them! However, that honoring and adoration often does become worship.

As far as extra-Biblical teaching goes. The Catholic Church is the one that put the New Testament together. They are the once who decided what made it in and what didn't. And they specifically chose books and letters that would back up the positions that they were taking. The "extra-Biblical" things in Catholicism and it is "tradition" something the Roman Catholic church is big on. Does that mean it's bad? Nope. Consider this: The basics of Jewish law are contained in the books we now call the Old Testament. Does that mean that's all there is to Judaism? Nope. There are a lot of traditions and practices that are expansions of what is in those books. Same thing with Catholicism.

The Catholic faith is a living one, where visions and revelation are present and possible to this day. Many Protestant churches think that such things ended with the Apostolic age. The Pentecostal churches are reviving the vision/revelation idea, but they think that they are the ones who have it right.

It's all about selective interpretation of the Bible, a book written by men for political reasons. If you want to get down to basic Christianity? Read the gospels and discard Paul. Also discard anything in the gospels that contradict to one another. The rest? That MIGHT be basic Christianity. But it might not be. Because again, the books were written by people, who are far from perfect.

Flar's Freyja
August 4th, 2004, 12:53 PM
:foh: i just read in a thread here on MW that Catholics are not Christians, and that they even take offense at being associated with Christianity and vice-versa. honestly i can say this is the first time i've heard this, i was raised catholic, and i went to a catholic school when i was little, nuns, uniforms, the lot. the thread was closed, so i can't post there anymore. anyway, for those of you who say catholisism is not a christian religion, what religion is it? pagan? :foh:
so now i'm curious, and i've turned this into a poll, to see what you guys think.

ah, hang on, i think i might have read something about that in another thread... if only i could remember...

I don't recall ever hearing that Catholics take offense at being associated with Christians. I know that I've probably posted more than once that I was offended when I moved to the Bible belt and was told by Christians that Catholics are not Christians!

I was told by Assembly of God and Baptist and even Methodist folks that Catholics worship idols and are going to hell because they don't pray through Jesus Christ only.

I haven't practiced Catholicism in a while, but I do recall that we just didn't make the salvation through Christ thing the same as the bible-thumpers in this area do. And while I no longer practice, I have returned to some of my basic Catholic beliefs when I realized that many of the saints are one and the same as many pagan gods and goddesses.

Sleet
August 4th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Catholics are Christian, they'd tell you they are the only "True Christians" and that all others are going to Hell because "There is no salvation outside of the church." However the Pope has "infallibly" stated that anyone who has not been properly introduced to the Catholic church might get into Heaven, but they'd definitely have to go to Purgatory first....

I'm not so sure about this. I'm relatively certain that the RCC makes no claims to know for sure what happens to any particular person after death - with the exception of saints, who are nothing more than people they believe with 100% certainty to be in heaven. I agree, they have definitely stated that they don't believe people who aren't Catholic are automatically doomed.

The pope speaks ex cathedra (meaning invoking infallability) rather rarely, actually.

As far as what "infallable" teachings are and aren't, I highly recommend people to stick with what's in the Chatechism - that's what the RCC teaches as explained by the RCC itself. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Aine of the Fae
August 4th, 2004, 01:27 PM
I'm not so sure about this. I'm relatively certain that the RCC makes no claims to know for sure what happens to any particular person after death - with the exception of saints, who are nothing more than people they believe with 100% certainty to be in heaven. I agree, they have definitely stated that they don't believe people who aren't Catholic are automatically doomed.

The pope speaks ex cathedra (meaning invoking infallability) rather rarely, actually.

As far as what "infallable" teachings are and aren't, I highly recommend people to stick with what's in the Chatechism - that's what the RCC teaches as explained by the RCC itself. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

I have yet to read the Chatechism, although I will sooner or later. What I know has been explained to me by an RCC priest, but it's probably still a lot closer to what the RCC teaches than what many Protestants think they teach.

Sleet
August 4th, 2004, 01:30 PM
What I know has been explained to me by an RCC priest, but it's probably still a lot closer to what the RCC teaches than what many Protestants think they teach.

Almost cetainly. ;)

I was a rather studious Catholic for many years, and talked to many priests and theologians. One of the things that struck me was how many of them disagreed on what the details of RCC teaching actually said.

Aine of the Fae
August 4th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Almost cetainly. ;)

I was a rather studious Catholic for many years, and talked to many priests and theologians. One of the things that struck me was how many of them disagreed on what the details of RCC teaching actually said.

I think the larger a group gets, the more diversity in practice you get. That being said, Roman Catholic teachings, while varied, are generally closer to each other than they are to, say, Pentecostal teachings.

Sleet
August 4th, 2004, 01:46 PM
I think the larger a group gets, the more diversity in practice you get. That being said, Roman Catholic teachings, while varied, are generally closer to each other than they are to, say, Pentecostal teachings.

Complete agreement. The central authority reduces, but does not eliminate, variation.

Aine of the Fae
August 4th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Complete agreement. The central authority reduces, but does not eliminate, variation.


Yup!

Equinox
August 5th, 2004, 01:02 PM
Sleet & Aine- interesting discussion. I’m not sure I’m agreeing or disagreeing with either of you, but I do think that the official RCC doctrine is that there is no salvation outside the RCC.

As a Catholic, I was taught that there is no salvation outside the (Roman Catholic) church. In addition, I know that this idea goes back to the 4th century with the Donatist succession & Augustine, who, along with the rest of the church, believed that sacraments were needed for salvation, and that sacraments were only proper if done by the official priest. Augustine writes clearly about this because he writes against the Donatist “heresy” (though he was originally a Donatist who converted to RCC). The donatists had said that corrupt priests couldn’t give valid sacraments. Because there were plenty of corrupt priests even back in the 4th century, the donatists seceded from the Catholic church, thus putting them out of the hierarchy, and so Augustine pointed out that their sacraments were invalid, and didn’t bring salvation.

This view of the sacraments is still RCC doctrine today: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

Thus, there is no salvation outside the RCC. It’s interesting that this view appear to go back to the early church(probably 1st or 2nd century and certainly 3rd cent) – thus protestants who reject it and say they are following the “early church” doesn’t seem to make sense. They even use a Bible put together by that church in the 4th century.

Oh well, not my path. May you feel the wind in your hair-