How forgiving is too forgiving?

[aftershocked]

I was gong to put this on Calzaer's 'Throttle Urge' thread, but there is a question involved and I didn't want to hijack the thread.

My best friend is friends with a boy. Let's call him Nick. Nick is an idiot. He is homophobic, racist, closed-minded Christian, politically obsessed, and all around hates anyone who doesn't agree with him. He's grown up in upper middle class suburbia, like me and my friend, yet always claims he's had it harder than my other friend, whose family happens to be MUCH worse off (food stamps, abused by her dad.. not good. But she's one of the best people I've ever met). He has the nerve to call my friend, who is old enough to choose to sleep with her boyfriend of 5 years, a slut because she chose to do so. He goes to an obviously pagan message board that our mutual friend and I post at, and yells at them because they offend him (he who was a guest, by the invitation of a mod, who he proceeded to curse out).

We've had many fights, the most recent of which ended in my having to physically remove him from my house, lest he smashed more of my things (luckily he only got to bowls and a table, rather than the TV that was closer). All except the recent one have ended in us agreeing to be friends, it working for a week, and then we fight.

But the thing is, it really hurts my best friend that we don't get along. I don't want to lose her because she doesn't see how damaging her relationship with him is to her. I want to try again, but with the fights getting increasingly worse, I don't want to get to physical fights with him (I'm much bigger and stronger than the boy, and have a short temper- if provoked, I would harm him).

What would you do?

*sorry for the :rant: I didn't mean for this to get so long.

[Kalika]

Well, if your best friend is REALLY your best friend, she'll understand that just because someone is her friend, doesn't mean that they have to be your friend too. You should have to be around someone who obviously makes you unhappy, and she should realize what its doing to you...not just your arguing making her unhappy.

:hugz:

I know its a tough call, but being honest with your friend about your feelings towards this boy (and in a nice way) may be your best bet.


Good luck hon.

[Njaalbear]

Wow .. bad situation.

Here's some advice:

Explain to your friend how you feel and suggest (suggest, don't demand) that if the three are you are going to get together to hang out or something, try to meet in a public place that's non-threatening and unbiased, such as a mall or the movies or something along those lines. Someplace where there will be little or no references to: religion, race, gender, age, sexaul preference ... and if there is, it's set up in a non-threatening manner or in such a way as to not be an influential presence.

Another suggestion:

Pull the narrow-minded cretin aside and explain calmly that you don't appreciate the things he says or does, and that it's offensive to you. Explain (hopefully before he blows up) that you want the three of you to get along, and that you don't want your friendship to end with your friend, nor do you want your friend to have to choose between you and him, but that his current course of action is leading to such a situation. Perhaps even suggest some sort of counseling, whether it's with a religious figure with his church or a professional counselor, to help deal with his anger and intolerance of other peoples' differences.

This are just some quick suggestions off the top of my head ... I don't know how old the three of you are, so I'm not sure if this is teen angst or some sort of change in lifestyles for young adults (late teens to mid 20s, not trying to condescend or talk down...), or perhaps something else (midlife crisis?).

[Marchosias]

My advice: never forgive and never forget.

Breaks your things? Get him arrested if you are not capable of sending him to the hospital.

His sort of behavior is totally unacceptable.

[Njaalbear]

My advice: never forgive and never forget.

Breaks your things? Get him arrested if you are not capable of sending him to the hospital.

His sort of behavior is totally unacceptable.

I have differing thoughts on this. I'm not saying you have to forgive or forget ... in fact, definitely don't forget, as this is life throwing a learning situation at you. Violent reaction is the absolute WORST thing you can do in this situation. Self defense is fine if you're attacked, but I personally have only gotten into knock em down drag em out fights with my brother, and neither of us were swinging to hurt. Every fight situation that I've ever been in I've avoided it ever coming to blows. Again, it's not worth it. The person starts breaking your stuff and refuses to leave? Call the police ... they love getting calls with violent intruders. I bet this kid settles down once he gets arrested by an officer who arrives on scene with gun drawn and then gets to spend some time in jail, followed by a civil suit for destroying property. If that doesn't get him in line, his parents most likely will step in at that point because, unless the kid is working, the parents are the ones who will have to fork over the cash.

[MzNeko]

I was going to talk about how not all one's friends have to like each other, but given the behaviors listed… there is something seriously wrong with this boy.


the most recent of which ended in my having to physically remove him from my house, lest he smashed more of my things (luckily he only got to bowls and a table, rather than the TV that was closer).

Have you considered pressing charges or otherwise teaching him the lesson that this is NOT the way to behave in someone else's home, no matter how angry you are? How old is this guy? He should know better.


He has the nerve to call my friend, who is old enough to choose to sleep with her boyfriend of 5 years, a slut because she chose to do so.

He's pretty obviously not your friend, but the way he treats her doesn't sound much like the behavior of a friend either.

Don't give up on your friendship with her and don't make her choose, but you might want to explain to her that you and the guy are NOT going to truly be friends. I don't know if you can explain to him that basic civilized behavior is expected… even towards eeeeeevil non-Christians! :p

You might want to tell him that you at least expect him to treat her better since he claims to be her friend.

[crashtime]

If he was just a jerk, I would say let it go. But for someone to have such a lack of consideration for other people? I say forget him. I would tell your friend that you've tried, but you can't make ANY relationship work without effort from both sides. If this wacko doesn't want to calm down, I don't know what else you CAN do.

[Valkie]

Just a random thought... for someone who claims to be Christian, he seem to have an awful lot of hate for people who don't think or act like he does. That doesn't sound like he's trying to emplify his Christ.

regardless of how your friend feels about him, if she is your friend she wouldn't be still by and letting him treat you like trash. Just because your friend doesn't have the heart (and there are a few other words that could be substituted for 'heart') to put him in his place, it doesn't mean that you have to stand there and take that kind of abuse. For your own sanity, don't hang with the two of them. You can be her friend without being his friend.

[Njaalbear]

DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to offend anyone.

That out of the way .... I hate to say this, but it has been my experience that most Christians aren't very Christian. Christ taught love one another, but I find that it's the Christians (at least the ones who are the most outspoken and public about being Christian) that are the least tolerant of those not "Christian" (in quotes because their view of what is Christian differs even from people who consider themselves Christian ... example: my parents were ostracized from a "Christian" church after attending 1 time because my mother was raised as a Protestant!)

*shrug* Religion has nothing to do with it. You can't say that a person should behave a certain way because of their religion/race/sexual preference/gender.

[Marchosias]

I have differing thoughts on this. I'm not saying you have to forgive or forget ... in fact, definitely don't forget, as this is life throwing a learning situation at you. Violent reaction is the absolute WORST thing you can do in this situation. Self defense is fine if you're attacked, but I personally have only gotten into knock em down drag em out fights with my brother, and neither of us were swinging to hurt. Every fight situation that I've ever been in I've avoided it ever coming to blows. Again, it's not worth it. The person starts breaking your stuff and refuses to leave? Call the police ... they love getting calls with violent intruders. I bet this kid settles down once he gets arrested by an officer who arrives on scene with gun drawn and then gets to spend some time in jail, followed by a civil suit for destroying property. If that doesn't get him in line, his parents most likely will step in at that point because, unless the kid is working, the parents are the ones who will have to fork over the cash.


Physical violence is fine, IMHO. In court, you have the stronger case.

You know how long it takes the cops to arrive? I wouldn't bank on it with a violent intruder.

Furthermore, why can the poster not be the one with the gun drawn, telling him to get out? If the poster is under 21, disregard this.

[aftershocked]

1) I am an 'old' 14 [more mature, larger- more like 20], the boy is 15, although he acts 7 at times, Zoe is 15 and the 'slut' Amanda is 19 [she's a neighbor]
This obviously knocks the gun thing out of the question :rolleyes:

2)Kalika- Thanks :hugz: She does accept the fact that we don't hang out, but it does annoy her when don't talk while he's around, or go places with him and her..

Njaalbear- I realize it sounds like teenage 'angst'.. and it probably is on his part. I personally just got sick of watching him treat me and my friends like crap.
I've tried to meet with them in a neutral place, discuss non-biased things (lunch at McD's with a game of cards).. and it ended with him giving a speech about why Dean should be president *this was when Dean was still in the running*. It doesn't end with the boy.

I suppose it could just be my angst :rolleyes: Gods know I have enough of it :lol:

Thanks for the replies; I don't imagine it's going to get better, but she tells me he's moving soon because his parent's divorce is being finalized.. so it'll be less likely for me to have to deal with him in school.

[Lunacie]

No advice here, but a word about "forgiveness". That simply means letting go of the anger and hatred so it doesn't make you feel sick inside. It does not mean allowing the person to continue doing things to harm you or even upset you.

[aluokaloo]

First rate neanderthal! I would have thrown him outta my place ages ago! Something is wrong with this boy, and I don't know what possess your friend to hang out with him Just be honest with both of them, if they don't want to hear it, well thats fine. Sorry thats just the way I am, tact is not forte' maybe a good thrashing will pull him up short, some people just need to understand thats not the way to go. Try getting a tranquilzer gun then talk to him. (J/K) :rant:

[WitchJezebel]

No advice here, but a word about "forgiveness". That simply means letting go of the anger and hatred so it doesn't make you feel sick inside. It does not mean allowing the person to continue doing things to harm you or even upset you.

I agree Lunacie.

He doesn't sound like any kind of friend to anyone really and I don't think I'd bother being around him at all. Your friend will hopefully understand your position if you can sit down and explain it to her. As for him breaking things in your house? Well... just me... but I would've kicked his a$$, no question. It wouldn't be the first time I've done that in my own home :smoke: .

[Yasmine Galenorn]

I was gong to put this on Calzaer's 'Throttle Urge' thread, but there is a question involved and I didn't want to hijack the thread.

My best friend is friends with a boy. Let's call him Nick. Nick is an idiot. He is homophobic, racist, closed-minded Christian, politically obsessed, and all around hates anyone who doesn't agree with him. He's grown up in upper middle class suburbia, like me and my friend, yet always claims he's had it harder than my other friend, whose family happens to be MUCH worse off (food stamps, abused by her dad.. not good. But she's one of the best people I've ever met). He has the nerve to call my friend, who is old enough to choose to sleep with her boyfriend of 5 years, a slut because she chose to do so. He goes to an obviously pagan message board that our mutual friend and I post at, and yells at them because they offend him (he who was a guest, by the invitation of a mod, who he proceeded to curse out).

We've had many fights, the most recent of which ended in my having to physically remove him from my house, lest he smashed more of my things (luckily he only got to bowls and a table, rather than the TV that was closer). All except the recent one have ended in us agreeing to be friends, it working for a week, and then we fight.

But the thing is, it really hurts my best friend that we don't get along. I don't want to lose her because she doesn't see how damaging her relationship with him is to her. I want to try again, but with the fights getting increasingly worse, I don't want to get to physical fights with him (I'm much bigger and stronger than the boy, and have a short temper- if provoked, I would harm him).

What would you do?

*sorry for the :rant: I didn't mean for this to get so long.

Quite frankly, I've learned through my life that I don't have time to waste on idiots or people who only feed negative energy my way. Your best friend needs to understand that not everybody will like everybody else. I'd suggest that you tell her that you just don't feel comfortable with him, that you hope that she can see her relationship clearly, and then just get together with her alone.

Why have someone in your life that is draining energy or being abusive in your presence? It's not worth it, even to make a friend feel better. If she's unwilling to accept that you don't want him in your home or around you, then maybe you'll have to make a choice between putting up with his bullsh*t, or backing off from the friendship for awhile. Don't make it an ultimatum if you tell her that, though...just tell her that you need to establish the boundaries of what is acceptable behavior if you're going to be present.

That's my two cents, for what it's worth (and having lived through abuse, I have come to the point where I won't let anyone in my home who has the tendency to emotionally or physically dive off the edge).

Good luck, my dear...hard choices are part of life, and sometimes neither choice is really that pleasant, but one will be more clearly the way you need to go. It's up to you to decide.

~Yasmine~ :colorful:

[Phoenix Blue]

That out of the way .... I hate to say this, but it has been my experience that most Christians aren't very Christian. Christ taught love one another, but I find that it's the Christians (at least the ones who are the most outspoken and public about being Christian) that are the least tolerant of those not "Christian" (in quotes because their view of what is Christian differs even from people who consider themselves Christian ... example: my parents were ostracized from a "Christian" church after attending 1 time because my mother was raised as a Protestant!)

ADMIN MODE

Be advised that bashing of other religions or personal Paths--including Christianity--is not tolerated in this community. Additionally, your post is off-topic. Please try to stay on the topic of discussion, namely aftershocked's request for advice.

[Lunacie]

Thanks for the replies; I don't imagine it's going to get better, but she tells me he's moving soon because his parent's divorce is being finalized.. so it'll be less likely for me to have to deal with him in school.
Just reading back through and realized I'd skimmed right over this. It could be that part of the guy's "angst" or anger could be because of the home situation. That doesn't give him an excuse to behave badly of course, but maybe your friend could talk to him about getting some counseling, and maybe even get the whole family to talk to the counselor together, at least once?

[Antoninus]

Is grevious bodily harm against your morales?

[Lunacie]

Is grevious bodily harm against your morales?
Who are you asking?

[Marchosias]

Is grevious bodily harm against your morals?

Of course not. Then again, you weren't asking me, were you? :p

[Antoninus]

Who are you asking? Aftershocked

[morrigen]

The whole difference in religion thing aside...this guy has an anger management problem.

Until he gets that sorted out, he will be a very unpleasant individual to be around. You do not have to put up with his destructive behaviour.

And your friend should be understanding of this...he broke *your* possesions...in *your* house.

To me, that is unacceptable.

[WandererInGray]

Thanks for the replies; I don't imagine it's going to get better, but she tells me he's moving soon because his parent's divorce is being finalized.. so it'll be less likely for me to have to deal with him in school.

Sounds like the kid has a lot of anger problems. Probably stemming from his parents divorce. *shrugs* Perhaps just offering an ear for him to vent on at specific times would help keep him from doing it all the time.
If he's breaking your things, all you have to tell him is he's not welcome in your home anymore.
As far as him calling someone else names, not really for you to comment on. *shrugs* She can tell him she doesn't appreciate it, since she's the one he insulted. And you can decide that you don't want to hang around with him because of the way he behaves. That's pretty much it.

*sighs* And what is with people advocating violence as an acceptable solution to anything lately?

[aftershocked]

Yet again it's been a while...

Lunacie, he's already in anger management and detox(he's an alcoholic).. I don't think he could handle another form of therapy. My friend believes that she's serving as his 'counsellor' for this area of his life; she mainly hangs out with him as a charity case now.

Antoninous. I'm an attempted pacifist (defensive martial arts is the closest I get to harming myself or others, unless running counts :rolleyes: ). Besides, my path has strict purity regulations that prohibit having open wounds or harming yourself.

And Wanderer, while I realize it's noy my place to speak up for my friend, he was giving her this speech at a time in her life when she had tried to kill herself, and I felt standing up for her was necessary, so she didn't succeed.

[WandererInGray]

And Wanderer, while I realize it's noy my place to speak up for my friend, he was giving her this speech at a time in her life when she had tried to kill herself, and I felt standing up for her was necessary, so she didn't succeed.

*nods* Given her circumstances, talking to her about it was definately advisable. I just meant that telling him off wouldn't have been very helpful since he probably wouldn't have listened.

Sounds like the poor kid has some major problems going on.

[pawnman]

Personally, I would do my best not to be around this guy. Ask your friend not to bring him around. Your other option is to find a "friend" of your own: A big, burly dude willing to step in and intimidate this guy if neccesary. If you have any big guy friends, begin inviting them along with your friend and this guy. Then you have at least two people who are your friends present if he decides to get violent again. Never, ever, under any circumstances, allow yourself to be alone with this guy.

[BrenaSidhe]

---ok friend thinks she's serving as guys counselor huh? OiY!

---Tell your friend that you don't want the guy brought anywhere near you, that you don't want to talk about him, hear anything about his life or their goings on, {NOTHING}...
If your friend trips out or demands an explanation, just say [NO] thats just the way it is [the end]...
Some people are just crisis junkies, she's getting something out of being a free shrink even if she dosn't know it... Otherwise WHY would anyone want to hang out with someone like that???
Sounds like the guys pissed, why is probly best left to the pros,but it seems the actual issue seems to be more of your friends problem than the guys...