settle this argument

[Amora]

My coworker and I are having a heated discussion and I was wondering if any of you had some input for his. She says she "owns" her children. I feel I don't "own" my child but I am resopnsible for her. What do you think?

[Margie]

Hmm...That's a good one. We often say "our" children or "my" children which would indicate "owning" them. But I don't go around saying I own them. I do look at it more like I'm responsable for them. That's just my opinion, I don't think you're gonna be able to "settle" this argument, there's no right answer. To me saying you "own" them sounds almost slave-like.

[Amora]

Originally posted by Margie
To me saying you "own" them sounds almost slave-like.

Ah, my point exactly, thank you... Her kids would agree. (even she says her kids would agree!)

[Spirahl]

Your job as a parent is to provide your children with the necessary skills to become independent. They are responsible for their own individual souls, which are un-ownable (probably not a word, but you get the 'jist!).

[evilslinkycat]

Agreed.
A child is their own person, we have a responisbilty to our children, but I can't imagin saying that I I own my son...

[Kaylara]

My mother has the same view of her kids as your co-worker. She believes that she owns us... By doing that, she reduces us to possessions who aren't worthy of respect, while she remains the powerful. It is an instance of power over, and it is just like slavery.

By considering her children to be less than she is, it opens the door to mental abuse. They are less than people, so their decisions and feelings are not important. Lived through that kind of situation with my parents and step-parents.

It is this way of thinking that allowed my step-father to beat me quite badly when I was 10 years old. I had bruses all over my body, a fat lip, a black eye, and I think that he broke my nose seeing as how after that, you can feel a piece of bone sticking out of the bridge of my nose. He could hit me like this because I wasn't his kid, and so was less of a person than even his own son. (and because my mother would just sit back and watch him do this)

This is one reason why I look at my brothers, and will look at my future children as people. Because if you think that they are less than people, then you can do anything to them, and you are right.
And I don't care who you are, if you feel that you can abuse a child (no matter who's child it is) and you are right, then you should be locked up. This is a dangerous way of thinking about another person.

*sorry about the rant*

Kaylara

[Myst]

She may think she "owns" her children but she'd be sad to find if she mis"owned" them then CAS or the equivalent government agency would "own" them...

[Kaylara]

Very true Willow.
What irks me is adoption. The state sells kids to desperate people... Which to me is really really sick.

*resisting urge to rant*

Kaylara

[ladyrowan]

I think the 'ownership' theory is a very old-fashioned view which, thankfully, most people are drawing away from.*
My father was middle-aged when i was born, and i think most of the problems between us were because he thought he owned us. Being a child of the 60's, i had totally different views to him and , I'm glad to say, 'my' children (eldest is 20) have never felt owned by me.
*There are still plenty around who want to own people, these are the control freaks I'm sure we've all come across in our lives.

BB

[Earth Walker]

Mainstream society treats everything as "commodities" even
people. See part 2 of my post, Life Is A Mistake?

[Semele]

I don't think I own my son...just sort of leasing him!!! Meaning I have all the responsibilities that come with ownership...having to provide for him and see to it that he is healthy and happy, but not forcing my views and opinions on him. Some things, yes we do disagree on and I make the ruling that yes he does have to wash his hair and no he cannot eat popcorn for breakfast....but these are things that are for his own good. Just until he is mature enough to make these decisions on his own in a well informed manner. So nope no ownership here....however with my husband....I OWN him all the way...paid in full....got the reciept to prove it!!!!!

[Wyrdsister]

This is a really great issue to discuss, Amora. :) I wonder if it qualifies as a Political Pagan topic? (but understand where I'm coming from: I feel strongly about the personal being political! :))

I would have to disagree with your co-worker. I have big problems with people being owned, whether they've come from your womb or not. I can see parents being in some ways responsible for their children, but I don't think that responsibility for someone/something automatically leads to ownership.

Wyrdsister

[threenorns]

i have two kids that are "mine", and i have two kids that are "not mine".

by using the personal possessive, i'm not saying that i "own" or i "don't own" them -- i'm just saying the credit for their presence on this planet goes to me, and the credit for them turning out to be such fabulous liddle critters goes to me, too. likewise, if they turned out to be sadistic fornicators of flaming ovids, that would go to me, too.

therefore, i now say "i have four kids -- two mine, two his", which says, in a nutshell, "there are four kids in my family, two i gave birth to, two i didn't". i tell them things like "excuse me? since when do i answer to you?" when they step out of bounds, but that's because things like trying to figure out how to pay all the bills is not an issue they should be worrying about when there's homework to do, housework to share, social skills to learn and practice, and the outdoors to enjoy.

i, too, had an abusive father -- but he never once claimed he "owned" me, quite the contrary.

i think that ppl who honestly believe that they "own", as in "have personal possession of and utter control over", are very, very rare -- most ppl, once they actually sit down and think about it, are full aware that they don't "own" their children -- just the pleasure of their company, and the satisfaction of a job well done every time someone compliments them or they achieve their various greatnesses (likewise the sadness when they fail to achieve their potential or turn out to be one of the rare few who must be taken out of society for its protection).

[Lavender]

You don't "own" your children but you are fully responsible for them. In the same sense, you don't own YOUR husband, you don't own YOUR mother, YOUR friend. It just shows a relationship between you and the person.

[silvrsnstr]

When my mom tells me to do things i don't want to, i normally say slavery is dead. This usually get me punished. My mom feels she owns me, so she can force me to *like* ugh George Dubya. She gets to choose my religion and such till i turn 21 (18, really, then i can move my ass outa there) and this she does. I am just, an ingnorant little s*** that is good as a punching bag and little else.
Well, guess what, respect is earned not given, and if you want me to respect or even like you, you have to let me be myself, make some decisions, or at least stop telling me what to do and punishing me when i ignore you, and over all, stop hitting me.
I try to voice my opinions, and get told to shut up. If I don't, i know i will get hit or grounded, or something to make me fell less like a person and more like some thing you have to take care of. TO my mom, i am not even human. I get yelled at for things I didn't do, and punished for them. Goddess, enough is enough. I am a person, not some shell with no feelings. I have feelings, and when i think of you, my mother, I shouldn't feel hate. You say you nurture me and protect me, but how does the beatings, as you so lovingly refer to them, fit in?
You say I make you do things, well, Screw off, becuase you're an adult, and responsible for your own damn actions. I have to watch what i say around you, and I can't be myself. I have to be in your image, becuase, of course, pleasing you should be the most important thing in my life.
I hate you, stupid whore. Let me be me!
Don't tease me becuase I am me.
So I like Destinys child,
big friggin deal.
So all my friends are 2 years older then me and in high school,
Well, guess what? All the stupid f***s my age are just to mean for me to like. I hate them now and always will. They're immature, followers and labelers.
Excuse me for being my own damn person!!
I own myself, and my descisions are a hell of alot better then anything you could ever do to me!
Slavery is over! I am your son, not some damn stpid s***.
As I sit here and write this, I realise how sick and sadistic you are. As the tears flow down my face, I stand proud.
They'res a reason why i fell safer with someone I am not related to.
They treat me like i'm human, not a ant, not just a little screwed up kid ruining your life.
Just let me be me.

[Amora]

Silvrnstr my heart goes out to you. I didn't realize this topic would take this twist but I really hoped writing that has at least made you feel a little better. If you need to talk please feel free to pm me.. you are really tugging at my heart strings here...Sending hugs...

[MammaStar]

PLEASE, PLEASE, go and talk to someone, and keep talking until someone stops and listens to you. There is NO REASON whatsoever that you should be treated this way. NONE!

Please, stay safe, and take care of yourself. Know that we are all here for you. Please PM if you ever need to talk.

[marevard]

One can never truly own anyone. We all have free -will, hearts, minds and souls. Some of us are just not aware of that- others give over their 'freedom' ( I use this term loosely) to another ex. soul-mate.
As for kids, I like what Semele used 'leasing'. At the end of the term, one is excepted to give back something in 'good' or 'excellent' condition. You note, that I did not use 'bad' or 'fair', as a parent, it is hard enough to relate a child to a car, so those two terms do not apply. Can't strech my imagation that far.
The job of a parent is to do the best by their child(ren). To do anything less, your not a parent, just a biological host ( or donator).
So, who really 'owns' who?

[Rævyn Cigány]

*Joins Kaylara in her rant, because I'm not awake enough to think of anything that intelligent to say right now* :confused:

BB

Rae )0(

[threenorns]

to silvrsnstr:

speaking as someone who used to be on your side of the fence and has -- through blind luck and the intervention of more than one god (male, female, or neuter) -- made it safely to the other, i can tell you that such rage and negativity will get you nowhere (fast!).

if your mother IS abusing you, then get help and protection. there are any number of places you can go to for help, starting with your father (if he's around). there are also agencies, your family doctor, and your school counsellor.

if, however, she's just being a parent and you're blowing it up out of proportion, then you need to learn some facts of life.

no, she can't tell you to "like" george w bush -- but she CAN tell you to respect her political beliefs and not make derogatory comments about him in her home and in her presence (and make no mistake: it IS her home until you start assuming the lion's share of the bills and the rent).

"beatings": if she's hitting you with objects (such as a 2X4, a belt, a closed fist, whatever) and is leaving marks, or if she's smacking you about the face, head, or "private area", then that's abuse and you should be going to the police. granted -- at your age, you should be well beyond the need for corporal punishment: kids under the age of discretion (say, generally 4 and lower) get smacked because you simply can't TELL a 3 year-old "no, don't push your baby brother into the pool because he'll drown". they don't understand, and they don't care -- they CAN'T. they can, however, understand that they'll get a smack on the hand and if they don't want another one, then they'll stop doing it.

sadly, some parents don't adjust their techniques as the child matures -- it should be: first, smacks on the hand; then you can get away with "would you like a smack on the hand?"; then you can say "how do you think that would feel if she did it to you?"; and so on. some parents, however, figure that if it worked for a 2 year-old, it'll work for a 12 year-old, and a 22 year-old.

getting yelled at for things you didn't do, well -- i've been on both sides. i've gotten beaten (by an abusive parent) for things i didn't do, and i've yelled at a kid of mine for something he or she didn't do. neither way feels great -- i've learned to apologize as soon as i realize i've screwed up, but i *don't* grovel about it (no special trips to mcdonald's, ie, unless it was something REALLY heinous).

of COURSE you should watch what you say around your mother! i'm a 34 year-old adult and DEFINITELY my own person -- do you honestly think i'd go acting the same way around my mother as i would at a party or around my kids!? it's called MANNERS, and has nothing to do with "respect". manners are the superficial skins we wear that prevent other ppl from killing us because we've mortally insulted them. manners are what prevent us from eating pork in front of a jew or a muslim, meat in front of a buddhist, or "getting it on" in front of our parents. manners say we don't swear in front of our parents (okay, so i'm weak on that one) or in front of little kids, or in front of ppl we don't know. we don't chew with our mouths open, we don't make physical contact with strangers (unless they're on fire or covered in fire-ants), and we wear appropriate levels of coverage based on where we're going. manners are what keep parents convinced they've got the angel to end all angels and what make bosses more inclined to hire you. they're the rules of society, and they're taught at home, which is why you watch what you say around your mother.

about the music... well.... again, i see both sides: personally, i like destiny's child. AND i like gigi d'agostino, britney spears, backstreet, vanessa mae, chopin, mozart, beethoven, rush, styx, deep purple, kiss, darude, and too many others. so what does MY daughter choose to crank out full blast!? NINE INCH NAILS! SLIPKNOT! the one genre i *can't stand*!!!!!

but since it's MY computer and MY speakers in the basement of MY home, and since she doesn't make a single contribution to the internet or phone bills (except to run them up) i tell her to shut it off or put the headphones on. [and yes, i'm allowed to crank my music up as loud as i like, any time i want unless someone's on the phone or is sleeping, etc].

at your age -- i'm assuming you're about 15, 16? -- EVERYTHING is black or white. when you get older, i assure you: you'll see things differently. if you don't, your life will be very unhappy, because you'll waste so much energy nurturing the rage and anger you have inside you (and it takes a LOT of energy to keep it up!). you won't be able to make lasting, nurturing relationships, and how will you ever be able to raise your own children if you refuse to set limits or exercise discipline?

just a thought: have you tried taking your mother to a coffee shop or restaurant (where she'll be forced to exercise "manners") and having a CALM, QUIET talk with her? try it -- it's amazing what kind of results you can get.

begin by writing down everything that pisses you off -- absolutely everything you can think of, whether it's a cheezy colour she dyes her hair, or the way she tells you to shut up.

leave that list for a day or two to cool off.

go over it again, and strike out anything you have no control over or that isn't your business (her choice of jobs isn't your business, and an annoying facial twitch can't be helped). against the rest, put your concerns (in NON-vulgar language) and what you're willing to offer as a compromise.

once you've got it pared down to the things that ARE your concern (maybe you wish she'd stop rifling through your room?), then invite her out for dinner, your treat. take your list, and keep going over it until you've got it down pat.

don't start as soon as you sit down -- until the meal arrives, exercise manners and keep the conversation casual and light. finally, once the food has arrived (and she'll be less inclined to bolt), begin by saying something like "mom, i want to talk to you about the tension that's been in our house and how we can get it resolved". make sure you allow her time to speak, and make sure you LISTEN to what she has to say -- you may be quite surprised at what you hear, whether it's an apology for not realizing you've grown up, or a damned good reason.

of course, there's a good chance that it'll go the other way and she'll be the one to stomp out, mouthing insults and telling you to mind your own damned business. in that case, at least you tried -- you can now move on with your life because the next move is up to her to make.

good luck!

[evilslinkycat]

Originally posted by Kaylara


By considering her children to be less than she is, it opens the door to mental abuse. They are less than people, so their decisions and feelings are not important. Lived through that kind of situation with my parents and step-parents.



Yep very well said. This is how my father thought of us kids growing up. He thought that he owned all of us, and it made life not all that enjoyable. However I was able to learn things from him, like how NOT to treat others. I also think tht he finaly came to understand that just before he died.

[Margie]

I think we've gotten some good replies here but I'm going to start another thread about disciplining children. I want to respond to some of what threenorns said but here isn't the place.

[Danustouch]

Ahhhhhhhh...yes. My parents too, had the "ownership of children" handbook. Growing up, we were told what we had to do, had to believe, had to follow, etc, etc, etc..because we were "Their" children. I've been there, too. I keep hoping that generation by generation, becomes more enlightened as to the roll parents play in the raising of their children. There is certainly more education and information available for parents, these days, then there were when we were small, or, for that matter, when THEY were children. Now...parents can learn about alternative styles of parenting, and discipline. So, I hope that more and more parents will refuse to be as mentally abusive as some of ours were (or physically, in some cases). I personally feel that one of the biggest mistakes that parents make, is treating their children like animals, or items. Not as miniature versions of adults. For, in truth, they are. They have feelings, just as we do, sensitivities, just as we do..opinions and spirits, just as we do. And we must not be so quick to step on them, just because they come in a pint-sized body. The only thing that Children do not have, that adults do, is some of the reasoning and logic abilities (which grow with age) and experience. Those are the areas in which parents must help their children to grow.

I can still recall SOOOOOOO many hurtful things that my father said to me as a child. And when I remember them, the hurt comes back. And I remember sooo many times in which my mother had an open slap for my face, for.."talking back to her" (which, imo, was always just expressing my disagreement with her belief or what have you"..and that is still painful.

But...now that I am older, I talk with my parents....and I can see what a difficult time they had raising me. I wasn't an easy child to raise, and I understand that. I also understand, that unfortunately, the only role models they had for child rearing were their parents who were ten times more dysfunctional, and the famed book by Dr. Spock. They had to learn their own way. They didn't have all of the information that parents do today. Hopefully, more and more, parents will learn that they are "Caretakers" for the beautiful souls of their children. Not owners, as generations pass, one to the next.

[threenorns]

children are NOT "little adults".

if they were, they wouldn't need parents to make choices for them regarding medical treatment, sexual behaviour, and social conduct.

in some respects, children really ARE little more than animals: until they develop the ego and the superego, their only concerns are not being afraid, not being uncomfortable, and not being hungry or thirsty. at this stage, they don't care about food being cooked: they want food, and they want it NOW!!! ("NOW NOW NOWNOWNOWNOW!!!!!!"). it's the part of the consciousness that we come hardwired with that helps us not starve to death before we can get mobile.

once they develop the ego, they learn that there's a process that must be gone through in order to satisfy these basic needs: the bottom must be cleaned before the "iccky" goes away, the food must be cooked before it can be eaten, and so on. once they have the ego, they can be told "dinner will be ready when the next set of commercials comes on" (or "in five minutes", depending on the age), and they'll wait.

it's the superego that determines maturity -- the superego is the part of the consciousness that tells them their place in society and the rules they must follow in order to live successfully within society. it's the part that allows them to empathize with others so that not only do they not hurt others, but they also protect those smaller and more helpless than themselves. it's the social awareness that tells them to seek help for themselves and for others. it's the part that has them offering their lunch to the hungry kid next to them in the lunchroom because they know they can go home and get more, but he or she can't.

until the ego has developed, the id (AND the kid!) is in control. you can reason and rationalize and expostulate all you want, but all the kid cares about it getting what he or she must have NOW! never mind this rot about "let him cry it out or you'll spoil him". all the baby learns is that you cannot be relied on to help him when she needs it unless there's a whole lotta whining and fussing going on.

very few ppl get stuck at this stage, but the ones that do are a problem for society: they don't care about others, just satisfying their immediate need for gratification, so date rape is one result, as is various forms of abuse because it's no longer a 2 yr-old beating on mummy's legs because she won't give him the cookies, it's a 22 yr-old beating on his wife because she won't give him sex.

when the ego develops, you can say "wait five minutes" or "not until bedtime" or "no, not today", but that's about it: something like "how would that make YOU feel?" doesn't quite click yet. at this stage, however, the child has learned what response is appropriate to make, but it's a rote behavious, not instinctual. at this point, the baby should have learned that you can be counted on to feed him when she's hungry, change her when he's wet or dirty, bathe him when she's hot and sticky. because they know you can be counted on, they will wait and (best of all) they don't bother you when they don't need something.

many ppl, unfortunately, never make it past this stage: they can't truly empathize with others, so they say things like "let them look after their own problems -- i've got bills to pay" when they see the CCF commercials on TV. they're not "bad", they're just.... blind. they can't empathize with others, because they can't see themselves as part of humanity as a whole -- they are the centre of their own universe. those who have been raised to trust their parents will pass through this stage and develop a superego.

those with fully-developed superegos are often called "treehuggers", "white knights", "suckers", and "patsies". they are aware of the consequences of their words and actions on their environment and on those around them -- they are no longer the centre of their universe, but they realize they are a small thread in a large pattern. it's difficult to predict when it develops -- it varies far too widely from child to child and culture to culture -- but when it does, you have a treasure for a child and another gleam of light in the world.

[silvrsnstr]

I thank you guys for your support, and your veiws. BTW, i am 13, i cook my own meals, take care of my pets, and buy things I want. The clothes I wear I bought, the TV, VCR, and DVD are mine, yet can still be stolen from me.
I am pretty self-suifent, i think, and I know how to take care of myself.
To threenorns:
That rage and negativity was a rant ( notice the subject). It is the result of my feelings and emotions being surpressed whilest being yelled at. I think that this falls under mental abuse. I think it also falls under the hate crimes. I am against them, not becuase i am biased, but becuase I get punished for what I beileve on a regular basis. It seems to similar and close to home.
ON the subject of beatings, she normally just smacks me, as does my father. I think this may be a way to avoid me calling the police on there sorry asses.
In my opinion, they are more animalistic then me. I *don't* use violence to solve my problems, a concept totallly alien to my mother and father, and also my older brother, (17). In my own home i feel like an alien. Today, for example, I asked my dad to please let me get ready by myself, and told him I didn't need to have everything laid out for me as if I were five. He said ok, then told me to go do my hair so we could goto (yay) church. If they can't except the fact that I am partically self suffient, they can tell me. To me, they are to physical, and don't think that a problem can be solved by with words.
No, she can't tell me to like him. But if she wants me to respect her beiliefs, she should try to respect mine as well.
I have never sweared in front of my mom. I think that manners should also apply to people you know. Would you turn your best friend over you knee and beat there ass? NO, i don't think so.
As to you examples of what we can do, well, screw that! I am the child, not the adult! She should be the mature one! I don't understand why I am the mature one in almost every situation in that house!
She and I act almost exactly the same. We can finish each others sentences, and would react the same in most situations. If she wants me to listen to her throughout our converstations, she coulde at least do the same for me.
I however, am not human, and no matter of talk will change her mind about that.

Crimson StarRaven
BTW, this is my phone line i am on, as in i pay for it.

[Spirahl]

Crimson, from what youv'e just described, I'd be very proud of you if you were my child. I think it so important for children to learn self-sufficiency, independence, and to think for themselves.

My 13 year old stepson wants everything done for him, his room cleaned, his lunch packed for school, won't do anything at all to help around here. He wanted extra money for things he wants so we offered him $20 for mowing the lawn, he thought that unreasonable and proceeded to mope a whine for days. He accepts TV as God and the authority on every matter. I try to encourage him to read and to experience things for himself, to no avail. I am the evil step-mommy for trying to bring out his abilities and talents instead of waiting on him hand-and-foot. I fear that he isn't going to function well as an adult.

It's a shame that your parents can't appreciate these independent qualities of yours.

[silvrsnstr]

This is laughable! I hope he never sets foot in NYC! or any for that matter. I get 10 for mowing the lawn, and I work odd jobs at a deli.

[threenorns]

... doesnt' mean you should exaggerate the situation.

in your correction, you paint a far different picture than originally: "just smacks" is way different from "beatings".

it sounds like your father is a control freak -- nothing you can do about that, it's a mental disorder.

and, in spite of your rage, i'm starting to think that the reason you and your mother don't get along is because you are too much alike. if you can finish each other's sentences, then obviously you two are more sympatico than you're ready to admit.

as for my suggestion, you're off-base: you're assuming that your mother is a reasonable, normally-functioning adult. women who live with abusive partners are NOT "normal", in any sense of the word, for a very, VERY long time after breaking it off, and without professional counselling or a damned good support system, it's often something that is never accomplished.

just because you are "the child" and she is "the adult" doesn't mean she has to make all the overtures. at some point, you have to demonstrate your maturity, no matter how bad a shape she's in.

if you hate your home situation THAT much, then it's up to you to make things different -- trust me, if you're not happy, then *nobody* probably is.

[Danustouch]

Ok..for clarification, perhaps Miniature Adults wasn't the correct term. What I meant to communicate is that they still DO have feelings, and emotions. And that we need to be as delicate with them, as we would with any other human being. For instance, I can rememember the feelings of embarrassment I had when I was spanked, quite vividly in fact. Embarrassment because I'd misbehaved, but also because I had to have my pants down for the spanking in front of my dad, and embarrassment because I was crying, etc, etc, etc. I think that many of the things I was spanked for, could have been handled better through talk, etc. For instance, my husband brought up a topic one day. He saw a mother, with her young child in a store. The child wanted to buy something, and the mother said "No". Very calmly..the child replied..."I'm VERY angry at you". The mother smacked her behind, and said.."DON'T you EVER talk that way to me again. I am your MOTHER". My husband and I both agree, that the woman handled this wrong. The child wasn't throwing a tantrum. She wasn't kicking, screaming, cussing, or anything. THe child was just expressing her emotion, and opinion. The mother, seems to have forgotten that her child is as capable of having these feelings as she herself is. IMHO, that mother, and that child, will have a LOT of problems when the girl gets older. I think to expect a child to bottle up their feelings, and not express them (i.e.."Talk back") or to disagree with you...etc..fosters a situation where the child will be distanced from you emotionally. Will NOT let you in on their life, will lie, etc, etc, etc. It's very destructive. My parents were EXTREMELY controlling (I went to a child psychologist once, and after 15 minutes...he dismissed me, saying there was NOTHING wrong with me..that my PARENTS were the ones who needed therapy)...and overbearing. The emotional scars I have from that upbringing, still effect me today. I lost most of my maturing years with my parents, because I couldnt' stand to be around them. I cringed when my father came too near me (he wasn't physically abusive...but I couldn't stand him for his controlling nature). I never felt I could talk to them. I never thought they understood me. I still don't, in fact. During the time when I needed my parents influence most, I pushed them away, because they were hurting me too badly. And I kept secrets, and I lied to them, etc, etc. etc. In THAT process, i got involved in the wrong crowd, and got into trouble. Trouble which I think could have been prevented, if my parents had fostered an air of open communication with me. If they'd listened to me, and my feelings, and my struggles, a little more often. Instead of expecting me to be "Perfect". ..etc. THis is a very deep topic. One which would take a LOOONG time for me to discuss in any further detail. However, I do think that kids walk away with deep scars, when parents refuse to listen to their emotions, or to treat them with common human respect.

[Draeconin]

Originally posted by Amora
My coworker and I are having a heated discussion and I was wondering if any of you had some input for his. She says she "owns" her children. I feel I don't "own" my child but I am resopnsible for her. What do you think?

Okay, I've read the other responses, now I'm going to play devil's advocate.

You say you don't own your children. That means that they have the same rights you do, right? So they have the right to choose their caretaker?

[threenorns]

Originally posted by Draeconin


Okay, I've read the other responses, now I'm going to play devil's advocate.

You say you don't own your children. That means that they have the same rights you do, right? So they have the right to choose their caretaker?


EXACTLY my point!

if one is the parent, one MUST be the disciplinarian -- there can be no talk of "equality". if your mother walked in and told you to clean your room, you clean it. if your "best friend" walked in and told you to clean your room, you tell him or her to go to hell (and rightly so, since your room is none of his or her business).

what i'm seeing is ppl with bad experiences with inept parents translating that in the wrong direction.

i, too, had an abusive parent -- about as bad as it can get.

the school called the cops on him, it was that bad (the cops told me it was my fault because i was "a lot smarter" than him -- in effect, making a 12 yr-old responsible for being abused by an adult).

does that mean i never set limits, rules, guidelines, or deadlines? absolutely not!

yes, i tell my daughter what she can and can't wear -- for the simple reasons that a) she's been wearing it day and night for a week and it's time for a change of scenery, and b) i don't think she's old enough or experienced enough to handle the consequences if she goes prancing about wearing hootchie clothes. i don't tell my younger daughter what to wear, because she has good taste and LIKES wearing pajamas.

yes, i go through my older daughter's room because it's a constant pig-sty and usually smells like something is rotting in there (last time, it was mice the cat had been stashing under the dresser). no, i don't go through my younger daughter's room because it's always clean and tiny and she gives me no reason to think i might have to.

yes, i tell both my daughters when and where they can go -- it's a safety thing.

yes, i read all my older daughter's online correspondences, whether it's ICQ, email, or whatever -- again, it's a safety thing.

i tell them both flat out "it's my house, and you're my responsibility, which means i'm allowed to do pretty much what i want".

that woman, who smacked her child for saying he was angry at her should've had her pants dropped and her butt beaten in public -- that was out of line and uncalled for.

but that's got nothing to do with being a parent -- just with being an inept parent who doesn't know when she's got it good.

when nik used to pitch her vicious (and LOUD!) tantrums in public, i quickly found out (like, within seconds!) that yelling at her did nothing but make her louder and get me annoyed looks from other ppl. i then went through stage two (hustling her out with a deep red face and then walloping her in the parking lot). i finally figured it out and just sat on the floor beside her with a book saying "oh? unh-hunh.... go on! i didn't hear that... oh, really? unh-hunh..." in an absent way as i read my book. she very quickly learned that pitching a tantrum in public got her nothing but a headache and tonsillitis, so she stopped. [i guess it helps when one honestly cares nothing about public opinion].

discipline is the job of the parent -- and part of discipline is punishment.

humiliation should only be part of punishment when it's directly related to the offense -- such as pushing your child down and pointing at her and laughing loudly because she's just done it AGAIN to another baby on the playground.

when the punishment is related to the offense and is justified, believe me: kids don't remember. they DO remember when it's unjustified or done in a cruel or demeaning manner. when it has a point, a beginning, and an end, kids just remember the lesson taught.

three things i can't stand:

"get off the ground now, or i'm leaving you here!" -- what the HELL is that!??? child has just learned that either you really would abandon him, or you're a bold-faced liar!

this thing i see where the kid is suspended in the air by one tiny arm while the parent flails in the general area of the butt, often hitting everything else except the butt. that is abuse, plain and simple.

letting the baby "cry it out" or "you'll spoil him": THAT, my friends, is a straight-out LIE. it is a physical impossibility to "spoil" a baby before the age of eight months -- but you can do it right nicely by teaching him that you'll only show up if she screams loudly enough! for all of you expecting a baby or hoping for kids in the future, take it from me: PICK THE BABY UP AS SOON AS IT SQUAWKS!!!! check for hunger, thirst, dirty, wet, sickness, or pain, and if everything's fine, then the baby needs to be cuddled. do this, and you'll find that your baby will only cry when there IS something wrong and will be more likely to sleep through the night early (like, when a month old).

so, to clarify the points made:

yes, children have feelings, emotions, rights, needs, and wants.

yes, children are subject to parental rule and guidance.

yes, too many parents are inept because the law says that anyone with the proper equipment can produce children and as long as the neighbours aren't talking, can keep them no matter what.

yes, parents should be reasonable about rules and regulations, adapting them to each child's needs and abilities.

no, children are NOT equal to parents -- or they'd be able to make their own decisions regarding things like medical treatment, education, and sexual behaviour and kiddie-porn wouldn't be illegal.

[reanna]

My personal opionion:

Children are our greatest gifts
and that is how I treat mine. I refer to them as mine but in the sense that I am responsible for teaching them how to become independant, responsible, loving and all round good human beings.
We as parents give them the tools, what they choose to do with those tools is up to them. I also re-inforce to my 2 turkeys that they have to accept the repercussions for the decisions they make and learn from them.

I love both of my gifts very much. Thanks for an interesting thread.

:):):):)

[Danustouch]

I do not believe that children are equal to adults in reasoning ability, experience, etc. Yes..they are still children. However, they are adults in the making. And we must be careful to teach them lessons in a way that will not leave them bruised or scarred, emotionally, or physically. I do believe that parents have to set limits. But at the same time, we can also listen to how that makes them feel. I babysat a three year old once, who wanted to get an icecream from the icecream man...I said "NO" (he already had icecream that day), and he threw a tantrum. Granted, being the babysitter, it wasn't up to me to punish in any way shape or form. But..what I did was listen to his tantrum. I actually encouraged it in a way..."Oh, Yeah? Tell me how angry that makes you feel!" "How angry are you??" etc. Obviosly..after a while, he'd spent his anger through his screamings. And then I said..."MY TURN!!!!!!!" and I put on a whiny yelling voice and said.."It's not FAIR that you threw this tantrum. I gave you icecream earlier...and was a nice babysitter to you! It's not fair, it's not fair! it's not FAIRRR>....WAHHHHHHHH". He sat stunned, looking at me. Then I said..."See? That was silly. eh??"...and the child laughed...and the tantrum was over. I don't know what it did in the long run. But it ended the tantrum for the moment. And I was prettttttty happy about that. I believe that you can LISTEN to your childs feelings, and opinions...at least give them an ear to their anger..or whatever. It doesn't mean you must GIVE IN to them. or back down on your boundaries. Only that you listen to their opinions and feelings, emotions, etc. And sometimes..KIDS ARE RIGHT..not always..not even MOST of the time...but sometimes, they are. For instance...when I was 13, I desperately wanted to start shaving my legs. Mom wouldn't let me. But I was getting teased at school whenever I wore a skirt, or shorts. I was soooo embarrassed. At first, my mother stuck to her guns. Saying that i'd probably wind up cutting myself. But..she thought it over..and realized that the tormet I was facing at school was probably interfering with my education (i was always so sensitive) and made a bargain with me. I couldn't shave..but I could use NAIR. She didn't actually capitulate..but..she did listen to my feelings, and try to come to a solution, to make us both feel better. That was an example of "Good Parenting" to me. Willing to listen to my feelings, really think them over, and decide whether or not my opinion had any merit. Not only did she save me a little torment...but..she made me feel that my feelings mattered. And that what I said, really did matter to her. That was a wonderful feeling.

[SpikesPet5150]

This is a great topic.. lots of different opinions. I'm only 21.. I don't have kids, nor do I think I ever want kids. The point is.. when I was about 13, I turned into this little hellion. I don't know what exactly happened.. maybe it was just hormones. I started doing drugs, skipping school, shoplifting, lying to my parents, drinking, I beat the hell out of my older sister.... and I never had a good reason to do any of it. I used to think my parents were the worst people ever. They never let me do what I wanted to do, which included staying out all night, on a school night, with boys. OOh, how dare they? They wouldn't let me have any fun, which included taking alcohol to school. I thought they were the most controlling. evil people on the face of the earth. Then I grew up. I stopped doing all that stuff, when my sisters then-boyfriend had a "talk" with me. Pretty much that talk was, "If you don't stop being an immature, selfish little brat, I'm not going to let you stay the weekend anymore." That worked for me, because I used to love to stay the weekends at their house. The next time I stayed the weekend with them, he explained to me that I was hurting everyone. That my parents *did*, in fact, love me, and that everyone was worried about me. When I look back on it, I think I had the best parents ever. They let me be me, they let me choose my religion, and friends and clothes. But they didn't let me do anything that would hurt me. When I moved out of my parents house when I was 18, I called my mom 2 or 3 rimes a day, every single day for months. Even now, I miss her. I think the point to this story is, once you mature and realize life isn't as easy as you thought it was, you'll thank you parents. My parents (and sisters) mean the world to me.. and I'll always be in debt to Chad (my sisters then-boyfriend) for forcing me to wake up. I'm the luckiest girl in the world, to have the family I have. But if you'd have asked me 7 or 8 years ago, I would have told you they were demon spawn.
~Bree

[threenorns]

... (although maybe i didn't word it correctly or something?)

danustouch: your technique is exactly the same one i used on my daughter to stop her tantrums. the point of a tantrum is to get undivided attention.

what she got was not exactly that. since she despises feeling like a fool, she stopped it pretty quickly.

sometimes, i DO have to get physical with her. the last time was about a year ago when she was REALLY REALLY emotionally unstable. i noticed she was ICQ-ing someone and that she was tense, jittery, and looked like she was about to cry. so i stood behind her and read over her shoulder with neither her knowledge nor her consent. when i realized what exactly i was reading, you could have knocked me over with a feather!!! i said "exCUSE me!??" and i killed the connection.

next thing i know, she's coming after me like a banshee with her nails for my face and the next thing she knows, she's picking herself up off the floor. well, the next couple of hours had the rest of the family AND the animals fleeing the house as the two of us went at it hammer and tongs. i finally put a stop to it by telling her to get to her room before i killed her and while she was in there, she can think long and hard about getting "involved" with strangers online and giving out private information (we're talking phone numbers and addresses, here!).

the next few days were spent in a grim silence, with me alternating between ranting and raving in my hubbie's general direction and collapsing in tears. in between mood swings, i tried to figure out what to do. the whole thing broke when she came upstairs with a mutinous set to her face, said "i'm sorry" through gritted teeth, then burst into tears. i said "i'm sorry, too -- not because i yelled at you, but i'm sorry it came down to that" and we ended up bawling in each other's arms. she still got grounded for a week (her idea), and that's when i instituted the 100% logging rule (everything she does on the computer is logged, keystroke for keystroke, and i have to have a copy of all her passwords, email addresses, and websites).

my younger daughter? "caiti, i'm very disappointed. this isn't something i would have expected from you" is the harshest i ever have to get. the last time i walloped her was when she was 7 and i caughter her playing with a lighter next to a pile of 8 foot-long birch logs out in the bush just behind our house (ever see birch bark flame up?).

my general rule of thumb is, "if they're going to get hurt doing it, they might as well find out now". i'd rather the pain came from a smack on the wrist than a 3rd-degree burn from playing with the stove!

[Danustouch]

I'm not yet a parent...but...have studied child psychology and child developement while in college, and I've also read a great deal on the subject on my own time, out of my own interest. And I partially raised my younger sister.

I've read a great deal about the arguments for and against corporal punishment. I for one, intend never to use it, on my own children. But...I'm not a parent yet..so cannot say for sure what I will do when the time comes, only what my intentions are at the moment. I do know that some parents employ coroporal punishment with their children..and see nothing wrong with it, and their children bear no visible emotional wounds from the few spankings they've received. But...I think there should be a few common sense rules when it comes to punishing your children.
One of them...is to never strike in anger. If someone thinks that spanking is the only suitable punishment for their child in a given situation...then send the child to their room, while you think about it, and THEN go and punish the child. That way..it gives you time to think it out, and make sure you aren't just reacting in the heat of the moment, or with anger (it should also ensure that the force is not excessive) But with the only intent involved, being discipline. I also think that for the most part, punishment should be between the parent and the child. I've heard some kids say how they were spanked in front of their siblings...to me, this is not fair. It is embarrassing, and beyond that...seems to get away from the point of discipline. There is no reason to add embarrassment to the issue of the discipline, at all. And Lastly..I think the parent needs to communicate EXACTLY why this punishment is being meted out. Not just.."Because I said not to do that, and you did it anyway.". But more like..."I told you I didn't want you going over to so and so's house, because it is dangerous there for you, and you can get hurt. Now..I have to punish you, so you won't want to do it again. I love you, and it's because I love you that I have to do this.". And I think once the punishment is meted out...it should not be spoken of again, unless the situation repeats itself. Once punishment is meted out, and the child has dealt with the repercussions of their actions, they should be able to start with a somewhat clean slate (of course, perhaps your eye might be more keenly focused on them the next time around)...but..they shouldn't have it hanging over their head all the time. That was one mistake my parents DID make with me. Whatever greivous sins I committed as a child, it didn't matter HOW sorry I was, or how much I was punished, or whatever, how much penance I did....I was never allowed to forget the mistakes that i made. They continually brought up my shortcomings, mistakes, etc, to relatives, to me, etc. ALL the time (example: At 14, mom caught me kissing a boy. From then on, whenever I asked to go for a walk...my mother would say..."And don't you DARE let me catch you around so and so's house...if I ever see you kissing him again, you'll be grounded for life". IMO..that kinda gives the child a message that you do not trust them, and that you think they are "bad" kids. At least...that's how it made ME feel. Anyway...I'm rambling now..these are just some of my ideas on good and bad methods of parenting.

[threenorns]

danu: we're arguing the same point.

your way is exactly the way i use, but with one exception: i don't give them long-winded explanations.

the first thing i do, i make sure they KNOW that "such-and-so" is verboten. the first time i caught caiti playing with matches, i told her "you do NOT play with matches, because you'll get badly burned!" and i took them away. (i think i gave her legos, or something, to get her mind off them).

once they have heard and understood the rule, the next time they break it, it's a smack on the hand or the REALLY bad one, the inside of the leg. NEVER hit about the face or head, and i don't even like butt-whacks because that's the spine we're talking about.

because i do have such a vicious temper (always have had), i make it a point to start the yelling long before i reach that point. the kids have learned that as long as i'm loud, everything's fine -- it's when i get very, very quiet that it's best to just split the scene and make like mice.

i don't like it when parents set up their kids -- things like leaving the ashtrays or cigarrettes on the table and expecting the baby to keep his or her mitts off. to me, things like that are strictly the adult's problem and have nothing to do with the child -- the child shouldn't have to "learn" to "keep out". here's another thought: ever see someone smoking and then thought about it from a child's point? the hand going to the mouth and back? looks like eating, don't it? that plays into the child's natural instinct to stick stuff in his mouth and therefore should NEVER be a matter for punishment.

discipline, yes, when he's older: "no, sweetie, no plugs in your mouth. here: chew on this block".

keep the verbiage as simple as possible -- never mind long-winded explanations and rationalizations. you are the parent, and the child should have learned by now that you have his or her best interests at heart. nik finally came to understand that, and now we get along far better than we have in her entire life (and she's FIFTEEN! how's that for a twist?). believe it or not, "because i said so" IS a valid reason and it works REAL well (especially when followed with "think about it, and YOU tell ME why (or why not)").

don't explain unless the kid asks, and only answer the question asked -- ie, you don't need the reproductive diagrams when your 4 yr-old asks "where do babies come from?"; "from their mummy" is good enough. if the kid wants to hear more, then he or she will ask.

from what you've said, i think you'll make a superb parent and your kids will make you proud.

[Amora]

Originally posted by Draeconin


Okay, I've read the other responses, now I'm going to play devil's advocate.

You say you don't own your children. That means that they have the same rights you do, right? So they have the right to choose their caretaker?

My child has all the rights of a free human being...which means she is and never will be anyones property. No one on this earth got to choose their caretakers, that was determined by forces greater then us (or in certain circumstances the court system). She does have the right to choose her religion and her beliefs and other things that are not harming anyone else. I merely guide her, educate her and support her.

[Danustouch]

LOL...i'm not arguing...i'm discussing :) really!

Thank you for the compliment. I hope to be blessed with three children some day..but for now..I'd be grateful for even one!

:)

[threenorns]

Originally posted by Danustouch
...

Thank you for the compliment. I hope to be blessed with three children some day..but for now..I'd be grateful for even one!

:)


you'll end up with four, but one of them you didn't give birth to.

[Draeconin]

Originally posted by Amora


My child has all the rights of a free human being...which means she is and never will be anyones property. No one on this earth got to choose their caretakers, that was determined by forces greater then us (or in certain circumstances the court system). She does have the right to choose her religion and her beliefs and other things that are not harming anyone else. I merely guide her, educate her and support her.
But are you equating 'children as property' with slavery? Because the law in every country I've heard of, while it does not *name* children as property *does* treat them as property, in most cases having no more rights than animals. The difference being that children attain more rights with age.

[Loki]

Slavery was outlawed when the south lost the Civil War.
I do not own my children they are individual people who have their own rights.
I am, however, responsible for their actions, and well being until they are eighteen. I am responsible for teaching them right from wrong and other moral things.

I do not own them

[bloodstone20]

This would be better for the family forum. Someone please move it there.

[Shy Hawk]

I agree with most everything that has been except this....I don't think a baby should be picked up everytime it cries. Well no, let me clarify...it shouldn't be picked up and held if nothing is wrong...
Alright, you put the baby down...it starts to freak out...
You check, you just fed the baby, it's not wet, nothing is poking it, it's not too hot or cold....everything is fine. The baby goes back in the bed.
I myself was spoiled that way...my mother held me night and day since I was maybe a month old. As a result, I couldn't sleep in a bed till I was over a year old. That's a lot of pressure on a mother, to not be able to "let the baby cry"...when you know that there is no reasonable explaination for the cries.
I'm not saying that physical contact should be avoided, or that you can't just cuddle your baby for hours on end if you want to....
But, don't you think it's harsh to say that parents who believe that letting a baby cry it out, are being abusive?
I am one of 8, and I'll say it again, have 10 nieces and nephews....2 of which, I mostly raised myself.....I don't feel ignorant on the matter because I don't have my own children...
But you know, there's no such thing as the perfect parent, and we all have our own styles.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Kaylara
Very true Willow.
What irks me is adoption. The state sells kids to desperate people... Which to me is really really sick.

*resisting urge to rant*

Kaylara

Sorry, just saw that now, and I *so* know what you mean. I think I had a little rant about it somewhere else in the forums. We live near the CAS building here in town and it is huge, high tech, new, several stories, has a full playground, perfect gardens and grass and one of those lighted signs and everything. My fiance thinks they literally have a quota, "here we need to sell 10 kids this month so let's see who's baby we can take away". This was only reinforced by another friend who's two daughters were taken away because his wife slapped him in the face one night. He had to threaten to take the service to court to get his kids back, especially when they informed him "oh by the way, the people who are taking care of your youngest want to adopt her now".. They were ripped out of his ex wife's arms and kept for months and months until he finally convinced them to give custody to his mother. It is DISGUSTING...

Oops I did start a rant there, sorry.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Shy Hawk
I agree with most everything that has been except this....I don't think a baby should be picked up everytime it cries.

So true. I've babysat for a few children who literally couldn't stand not being held when momma or daddy were around - though half the time once the parents were gone the child was happy to sit on the floor and play. When I was a child I was never coddled like that, and was left in my playpen while Mom cleaned, cooked, and took care of the other children. Thus I've been raised to be independent. My mom's spotless house and square meals every night regardless of how many children she was taking care of were clearly in conflict with those who say a baby should always be held or that they can't keep a clean house with kids around. I have one friend who even says she doesn't have time to make a meal (even a sandwich) to eat because she has to watch two kids, in my mind that's ridiculous. If the bum's clean and the tummy full there's no reason the baby can't be left in a playpen with some toys, IMHO.

[Danustouch]

Ok....i am not sure if I'm misinterpreting things here..so I'll just ask. Are you all saying that the practice of adoption is wrong, or is it the current way it is being handled that is wrong?

I mean..if a teen mother, chooses to put her baby up for adoption, instead of aborting it, and that child finds a loving home, and the couple who adopted it had wanted a child for years, and wasn't able to have one...is that wrong? I'm confused.

[Shy Hawk]

I think that adoption is a wonderful and noble thing...I can't speak for the others, but yes, I think it has become corrupt...and those who have corrupted ......suck, for lack of a better word. But that doesn't mean we should give up on it.

I for one would rather be alive and adopted...and maybe that is biased because I'm not adopted. But my best friend is, and she'd agree.