Okay, I have a topic suggestion...

[Kalima]

You all know witchvox, and their monthly essays, yes?
Well did anyone but me pick up that recently the adult topic was 'sex(uality?) and paganism', but the teenaged topic was 'pagans in school' ?

As I see sex and the body and acceptance of these as an integral part of Paganism (and since at nineteen I qualfy as a teen despite my fully adult status here in Australia), I was kind of insulted by this.
I could see where the organisers were coming from - as our culture is Christian-centric, and many of the teens who write and visit their site are quite young, and also that their parents may not appreciate them being 'exposed' to such things, but I began to wonder why they didn't make more of an effort to modify the adult topic?
Like maybe 'should teen pagans be exposed to the sexual side of paganism'? 'How much so'? Or 'Is there a specific sexual orientation to being Pagan'?

So, I put it to my fellow members:
Should teen pagans be made aware of the sexual aspects of Paganism and some of it's practices? How much so? etc,etc ;)

[Semele]

Deadly combination.....most times. I think that I have to agree with Mol who is cooking and just said she's not a teen...thats for the younger ones! I think of you as an adult. There is a lot to be said for the few years from 13 to 17 or 18. You mature so much and are better able to handle anything you encounter. Sex is a wonderful part of life when experienced at the right time. Teens have so much inner struggle going on already with the newfound fears and excitement that comes at that time. It is usually a bad additive when sex gets thrown in too early. Certain teens may be mature enough to handle it while others are not ready.

However if you are simply talking about education, then yes they should be included. Just because we don't want them to go out having sex all the time doesn't mean they shouldn't know the facts and I think the same goes for sex magick etc. They can learn about it and have time to really think about how they feel regarding it's use in ritual before the opportunity arises...no pun intended. I personally would hate to see a teen who is new to paganism, new to sex, and new to being an independant being...experiment with them all together. Too many news for one journey I think.

Semele

[Kaylara]

I would have to agree with you on that Semele. I am the same age as Kalima, and you may consider me an adult, but a lot of adults still consider me a "kid". I was always of the opinion (once I understood the concept) that sex was supposed to be a special thing, shared with someone who you cared about. And I cannot say that I have been as innocent as some people would like to think. I am polyamorous, as is Traz (my fiance) and he has close to the same experiences as I, so we have no conflict there.

There is a very primal, sexual side to paganism. We hold sex as very sacred, and something to be enjoyed. Therefore, I am of the feeling that the sexual side of paganism should be explained to teenagers who are mature enough to handle it. That is a personal feeling. I would not try to explain to my eleven year old brother about the great rite. I would explain to him the forces behind it. I have explained to him my concept of sexuality, and he has pledged to me that he will be responsible when the time comes for him to become sexually active.

That is my personal trust with my brother, we are very close, and so I feel that I can talk to him about just about anything, and I hope that throughout his teenage years that we can stay this close. I think that purhaps the reason why he feels that he can talk to me about these things is because I don't condemn his decision, and I make him think before deciding anything. But not all young pagan people are ready for the kind of responsibility that comes with sex itself, without throwing sex magick in the mix. Some young people may abuse it. (ie. you can be in our coven if you have sex with me.) So, as I said, this sort of thing should be explained when the time comes that you feel that they are mature enough to understand.

Blessed Be!
Kaylara

[Ari]

When I saw those two topics I seriously considered writing witchvox an essay on 'sexuality and school' ;) Seriously ~ I think the tendency some pagan authors have to 'leave out the sex' if their books are aimed at young people is misguided; a positive attitude to the body and sexuality is an important aspect of pagan philosopy, and leaving that out in order to make things more politically correct and socially acceptable is lying, and giving potentially interested people a false idea. Giving young people a positive representation is not the same thing as encouraging them to rush out and do it, which of course would be inappropriate.

[eaglewolf]

Public works of literature is a heavy responsibility. Politics plays a far greater roll in publishing than morals or desire.

Many authors would love to take this route, but are literally not allowed to. It is a shame, but it is often times for a good reason.

This is why I so often stress the importance of parents and education. Every child has one, or something similar, and it is the duty of parents to ensure the healthy growth of our youth, not public literature.

I know some parents are not the best teachers, and their views often times confict with our youth, but all education starts in the home... the rest is up to you.

~ew

[Rosabelle]

by not telling teen pagans about the sexual side of paganism, you are saying they are too young to know that kinds of stuff, but it is actually throughout puberty when you probebly have the most thoughts about sex.
Rosabelle

[Nyxee]

Very interesting.
Fiona Horne (Aussie singer, writer and Witch) does have a chapter on teens and sexuality in her latest book 'Life's A Witch', called 'Let's Talk About Teen Sex'. In it she goes over body awareness, orgasms, masturbation, homosexuality and heterosexuality, throws in a few spells and contact phone numbers, and does a fairly good job of going where not many dare to venture.
That said, I have to admit I thought the book as a whole was aimed at younger teens (I'm 17) but did a better job of it than SRW's 'Teen Witch' (and hey, it's a lot more local to me :o).

Blessings

Mellee

[Ari]

I went to the "Life's A Witch" book launch with Kalima (Aphie) and Sara, although neither of us have a copy. I was much more impressed with what Ms Horne had to say than I expected; the Australian community tends to underestimate her.

[Kalima]

I'll echo that; I expected a light-n-fluffy dissertation on witchcraft, what I got was a woman who is serious about her path, and has a serious commitment to sharing a positive image of her faith with the community.

[Semele]

but it is actually throughout puberty when you probebly have the most thoughts about sex.
Rosabelle [/B][/QUOTE]

And it was during nursing school when I had a lot of thoughts about starting IV's but probably the worst time for me to try. Teens do think a lot of sex... it is the natural process of growing up, yet when they first start having those thoughts they aren't necessarily mature enough to handle all that the act of sex involves. Emotional and possible physical pain, just to name a few. But I do agree education is a must. Simply ignoring the fact that our kids are having the same feelings we experienced is not the answer. A difficult subject to approach but even more difficult to deal with the consequences of not taking that step.

Also I have to agree with eagle, darn it, it is the responsibility of the parents to educate their children. Because if they don't someone else will.

Semele

[eaglewolf]

...there are many parents who could use a little education themselves.

~ew

[Kaylara]

And it was during nursing school when I had a lot of thoughts about starting IV's but probably the worst time for me to try. Teens do think a lot of sex... it is the natural process of growing up, yet when they first start having those thoughts they aren't necessarily mature enough to handle all that the act of sex involves. Emotional and possible physical pain, just to name a few. But I do agree education is a must. Simply ignoring the fact that our kids are having the same feelings we experienced is not the answer. A difficult subject to approach but even more difficult to deal with the consequences of not taking that step.

Semele [/B]

But I think that there comes a point when a kid understands that they have sexual feelings, and by denying that your child has them, or by discouraging them by using the usual "wait until you're married" argument, you are doing your child a disservice. A lot of adults seem to feel that while as an adult you can have those feelings, it is improper for young people to feel the same thing. I lost my "virginity" when I was 13. I admit, that's young by any standards, but I had my own reasons for doing it, and for continuing to have sex. These are probably the same reasons that the "older" people in here have for having sex.
Now, looking back being a little bit older and wiser. (LOL) I can see my errors and personal issues that I was trying to work through. (with not much success until I could get out of that situation) But, I really do think that there is a point where you have to trust your children. I know that the last thing that I am thinking of while making out or having sex was my parents or their rules, and I think that many young people feel the same way. Trust is key to a parent child relationship. If the child sees the parent's flaws (and teens can see these very well, and prod them.) then they see that their judgement is just as good as their parents. (Even if this is not the case)
It's part of growing up... I know now that having sex while in a loving, trusting relationship is much more gratifying than just having sex. But I would never have found that out with out my past experiences. I know that having sex with someone who you barely know is a BIG no-no. But I also can sense when someone is a good person, and I can tell when I am attracted to someone.

And EW~ I completely agree.
Blessed Be!
Kaylara

[eaglewolf]

I think some people come to grips with sexuality at a younger age than others. We are all curious, but this is far from being secure...

I have known people who are extremely active early in life and continue to be so well into adulthood. I have also seen many adults who are so insecure about their own sexuality, the act of physical love is more painful or dissatisfying than enjoyable.

I also think some people are more sexually inclined than others. Sex is as eclectic as religion...

I am an extremely fervent lover, and have been from a young age. It is hard to find equally enthusiastic partners, which leads me to believe few people are truly this way (few that I have actually met anyway). Some work very hard, while it seems others are more naturally talented, much like anything we do I suppose.

Because people are so different, caution is needed when approaching this subject. I believe some are ready sooner than others, and some may never really be ready. Sex is a very natural thing, and we are born to copulate... but we are all individuals and must be handled in different ways.

Just a thought...

~ew

[Polaris]

MM
tricky topic.
as speaking as a teen, everybody is different and some who have never known of sex in their early lives may find it hard to handle. i agree with what rosabelle said, and i aslo do think it is partially up to the parents, even htough i never found out 'the facts of life' from them, i knew them as an instict. i thinkit is all up to the individual, but if we want to know, we should have the reasources to find out. not nessicarily have sex, but find otu about it's meanings and concepts.
MP
Polaris

[eaglewolf]

There should be more reliable resources, and am sure there are if you know where to look... the problem is finding out where you should be looking ;).

~ew

[Semele]

Kaylara,
I very much respect your honesty and your wisdom. i don't want you to think that I am totally against teen agers having sex or that i think they are all too young and immature to handle the situation. Like Ew said, lots of adults would also fit that discription. And just because parents educate their children does not mean they wont make their own mistakes. Mistakes are a great tool for learning. I can tell you a huindred times that fire will burn you, but you wont really "know" it until you get burned. Not to imply, of course, that sex is always a mistake.

On the subject of thinking of your parents while making out etc...GROSS!!! That may be the formula for killing sex drives across the world...except maybe for EW who appears to be a self confessed Nympho!! (Lucky Scarlet!!!) However I do believe that all the small lessons and words of wisdom our parents instill in us as we grow, often without our knowledge of a lesson being taught, do play a role in the choices we make. Even if it means you only listen to half of what they say, you get the key points. They may encourage you to wait until after your married or whatever but also educate you on the PROPER use of condoms. Maybe you decide for yourself that you are not waiting and you are ready to go for it, but you do keep in mind the condom issue. I consider that a success!!

I hope that our son will make the right choices in this department and he will have a very detailed knowledge regarding sex. Does that mean I hope he only has one partner and it is the one he is bonded to for life??/ Not sure on that topic. I can honestly look at my past sexual history and say... well many things but most importantly I learned a lot!!! Both good and bad and I wouldn't trade the experiance for anything. I am lucky to have found my true partner and I hope Trey does as well. However I know he will experiment many times along the way and thats ok too. I also know that if he makes any mistakes he will learn from them and that it will not be due to a lack of information. at almost five years of age he is already well educated. he has known and used the proper name for his anatomy since he was two...mainly because my lovely brother introduced him to the term "whacker" and I was not comfortable with that term. Also he waches the discovery health channel with me and loves the show Birth Day which shows deliveries.

Anyway.blah blah blah.. I am rambling on and on. So I will shut up now.

Semele

[Kaylara]

I think that we agree on this one Semele...
I think that when the time comes, and I have kids that are old enough to think about having sex, I will tell them the same thing that I tell my little brother right now. That is: "If you do decide to have sex, be responsible and be careful. Make sure that you really want to have sex with this person, and that you are thinking with the head on top of your shoulders and not the other one." I know it's kind of frank to be talking to a kid about this, but I want him to know that it is not wrong or bad to have sex, but you have to be responisble about it.

You have to be ready to handle the consequences, and you have to feel ready. Don't let yourself be pressured into doing ANYTHING that you don't want to do. And most importantly, sex will not gain you love and respect if that is what you are looking for. The other person will not always react the way you think they will, and they are just as likely to dump you tomorrow as to actually care about you as a person. So pick your partners well and practice Responsible Procreation.

BB,
Kaylara

[Semele]

Very well said!!!

Semele

[Kaylara]

Thank you!
:)

Kaylara