Disciplining your children...

[Margie]

I want to know what you do to discipline your children. I'm having a very hard time with my two year old talking to me snotty, just not listening in general when I call her to me repeatedly to talk to her about something she did good or bad. Potty training etc....

In a thread in Just Talk...

Originally posted by threenorns

kids under the age of discretion (say, generally 4 and lower) get smacked because you simply can't TELL a 3 year-old "no, don't push your baby brother into the pool because he'll drown". they don't understand, and they don't care -- they CAN'T. they can, however, understand that they'll get a smack on the hand and if they don't want another one, then they'll stop doing it.


I did smack my daughters hand when she was past 9months when she reached for a light socket or something that would hurt her. And now she's 2 1/2. When I tell her to do something she says "oh-ka-ay" in that snotty teen-ager tone. I've gotten her to say "yes mommy" instead. But when I tell her to stop doing something, (like licking the screen door, poking the baby in the eye) she'll stop and continue as soon as I turn my back. I'll tell her to stop again and it continues till I smack her on the butt... then it stops for a couple of minutes. Sometimes I make her go to her room (so I don't have to spank her)and she screams bloody murder at the top of her lungs...she sounds like I am beating her!

Also what do you do in public since you get stared at and dirty looks if you give your child a swat on the behind.

Thanks for any help.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Beleive it or not at that age time out works but you will most likely need to use a car seat. If you can afford it go to a thrift shop and get one you don't want her to associate getting into the one in the car with punishment. Tell her that if she is going to_____ you will put her in the seat then it's a good rule of thumb for 1 minute per year after she stops crying. I would try distraction first though. Something along the lines of you wouldn't want me to do __ to you lets go do ____ instead. It doesn't always work but it's worth a shot.

[Mairwen]

I did the time out thing with my boys ~ one minute for each year of their age. And I did the coolest thing to stop the oldest from having tantrums at the age of 2; he never had another one! It was one of those days that the dinner was on the stove, the doorbell was ringing, the phone was ringing ~ you know how it is ~ and the oldest was in the livingroom floor screaming. Finally, I couldn't take it anymore. I locked the door, took the phone off the hook, turned off the stove and removed everything from the burners and went into the livingroom. I threw myself into the floor, and starting having ME a good old fashioned tantrum! Well, Thomas got up, and he stood there (all 2.5 feet of him) looking at me with his jaw on the floor and his eyes as big as dinner plates. He wandered into the diningroom, pulled out a chair and started to color. 8O

Everybody who hears this story thinks I'm insane. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do ~ besides I know I certianly felt better when I was finished! :D

[Sequoia]

way to go, Mairwen!!

hmm my only experience with children really has been babysitting, and the little girl I babysit is a sweetheart, but whenever I encounter kids doing things I try to take them aside and explain why they shouldn't do that, that they'll get hurt or someone else will get hurt, and how would they feel if THEY got hit by that other child? Or what would happen if you ran out onto the street? they ususally seem a bit startled that something would actually HAPPEN, then they go back to playing, but they usually stop.

This might not work with a younger child, but the way I've tried (and had some sucess with) is sort of gesture to what the child was doing (or pantamime doing it myself) and then go "O.O owie!!" to give the idea that it might hurt the child to do that. then I point to the thing and say "owie, that will hurt!" and the child often goes "owie?" and I nod solomnly and they usually look solomn too and stop doing it.

I'm not sure how I"ll handle being a parent, but I hope that I do a good job someday.

[ladyrowan]

Originally posted by Mairwen
And I did the coolest thing to stop the oldest from having tantrums at the age of 2; he never had another one!................... I locked the door, took the phone off the hook, turned off the stove and removed everything from the burners and went into the livingroom. I threw myself into the floor, and starting having ME a good old fashioned tantrum! Well, Thomas got up, and he stood there (all 2.5 feet of him) looking at me with his jaw on the floor and his eyes as big as dinner plates. He wandered into the diningroom, pulled out a chair and started to color. 8O

I'd loved to have seen that, haha
Just wondering - do you think it might work with my 20yr-old son? 8O

BB

[tigger759]

SOrry to hear that your having that problem?? But my question is do they grow out of it. I got an 8 year old who can be a brat. I love the ohh yeah!! mmmmm and stomping away! ohh and yelling at her brother that is the topper for me!! So i started taking away privilages. TV went first. then it was her gameboy now she has to ready for 20 minutes after a fit or attitude. I got a look and when it comes on she knows!! It seems to work.
But with a 2 year old it may be harder but shut the tv off and let her scream in a corner. Yeah terrible on you but if you give her that time out with no attention to her she may understand that you wont' tolerate it.
Good luck!!

[Mariposa De La Luna]

Tigger the next time your 8 yr old asks for something do the "ohh yeah!! mmmmm and stomping away!" thing to her. When they are that age you need to let them know that if they respect your wishes you will respect thiers within boundaries.

My favorite is when my daughter lies I tell her to watch out because I'm going to lie to her sometime within the next week. OOOHHH that works so well her face just drops! We always tell her the truth so just imagining us lying makes her feel very uncomfortable. :D

[tigger759]

Yeah no kidding!! Though she'd probably think i'm a freak or something!! But i'm so gonna try that.
Thanks!

[Rævyn Cigány]

Originally posted by Mairwen
I did the time out thing with my boys ~ one minute for each year of their age. And I did the coolest thing to stop the oldest from having tantrums at the age of 2; he never had another one! It was one of those days that the dinner was on the stove, the doorbell was ringing, the phone was ringing ~ you know how it is ~ and the oldest was in the livingroom floor screaming. Finally, I couldn't take it anymore. I locked the door, took the phone off the hook, turned off the stove and removed everything from the burners and went into the livingroom. I threw myself into the floor, and starting having ME a good old fashioned tantrum! Well, Thomas got up, and he stood there (all 2.5 feet of him) looking at me with his jaw on the floor and his eyes as big as dinner plates. He wandered into the diningroom, pulled out a chair and started to color. 8O

Everybody who hears this story thinks I'm insane. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do ~ besides I know I certianly felt better when I was finished! :D

What? Insane? Are you kidding?! That has got to be THE BEST idea I have ever heard!!! Mind if I steal the concept for my own??? I'm just vibrating lately with my daughter because she also is two and a half and boy oh boy, sometimes I'd just like to....never mind...you KNOW....

BB

Rae )0(

[MammaStar]

Well, my son is 9 now. And do I get the attitude, especially after he's spent the afternoon with a couple of his friends. The last "hissy" fit he threw I took away his radio for 2 weeks. My son is HUGE baseball fan and listens to the games on his radio any chance he gets. That was 2 weeks ago, when i finally gave it back to him and he's been wonderful since.

I use the taking away priveleges thing now. It works pretty good. When he was 2, I just let him yell his head off after I put him in his room. Believe me, if my neighbors were worry warts, I probably would have DSS knocking at my door. The first time he did it, I just walked out side (mainly for my own sanity). My neighbors saw me, so the knew he was just being a kid.

[Lavender]

Originally posted by Mairwen
Everybody who hears this story thinks I'm insane. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do ~ besides I know I certianly felt better when I was finished! :D

No, I don't think you're insane...I've done this with my son too! We also got him to stop whining too. Whenever he whines, we whine back until someone laughs. It really does work. It makes them see how silly they look. 8O

[Lavender]

Another thing is always follow through with what you say you're going to do. When my son was six, I asked him to clean his room & pick up all his toys off the floor. He wouldn't do it. I told him that if he didn't I would go in there with a garbage bag & pick them up for him. The bag would go in the garbage. He didn't pick up his toys & I went in there with a garbage bag. Unfortunately, I didn't have the heart to throw out his toys & hid them in the garage. He found them. The next time, I asked him to pick up his toys, his reply was that I would just hide them in the garage. I went into his room & picked up what was on the floor & this time the bag went into the garbage.

Now my son is eleven. When I ask him to clean his room, he does it. Every so often, I would remind him of when I threw out his toys. I'm getting great milage out of that one! :D

[Spirahl]

"Creative" parenting, I think you folks should write a book. It's sure to outsell Dr. Spock.
My problem is with stepchildren aged 13 to 21. Daddy has always spoiled them, Mommy is completely focused on herself. So it's not like they see any adult as an authority-figure, let alone one that just entered their life 3 years ago.

[Faery-Wings]

And now she's 2 1/2. When I tell her to do something she says "oh-ka-ay" in that snotty teen-ager tone.

My DD will be three in Sept and she does the same thing. Ugh, like nails on the chalkboard. Where do they learn that?

I try to use a lot of choices and consequenses. And I have done the Mommy Tantrum too. If nothing else, it makes me and the kids crack up and dissolves some of the tension.

I also have tried the book 1, 2, 3 Magic. It workds great with my son. Unfortunately, I find it really hard to be very consistent with it. The more stressed I am, the easier it is to yell and not count. The premise of the book is to calmly count when your child does something wrong, and when they get to three, they take 5 minutes break in their room. When I use it consistently, I get good results.

My DD, however is a tough case, very spirited and I find it hard to find a balance of getting her to listen without breaking her spirit. I ask the Goddess for peace and assistance all of the time!

BB

Chris

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by ladyrowan
I'd loved to have seen that, haha
Just wondering - do you think it might work with my 20yr-old son? 8O
BB

I'd like to have a copy on film, myself! I don't know about your 20 year old. I'm still trying to "fix" my 26 year old SO. :rolleyes:

[Margie]

Thank you all for your responses.

I have heard about the throwing a fit right back or whining when they do. I haven't tried it yet but I think I could get some results from that. I just want to get some type of system in place that works so when my 2month old gets to that age, I know what works. I did exhaust the time out though I'm trying to bring it back. She just would not stand in the corner, and if she sat she would kick the wall, lick the wall (I don't know why she licks things!!) find something and draw on the wall...argh!! So frustrating. I just had her in time out for torturing the cat :( then she comes out and wants to be nice to him...temporarily. <<sigh>> I also count 1, 2, 3 when she's doing something she's not supposed to (or NOT doing what she supposed to) and that works for my but my boyfriend (her father) gets impatient. When it's something we've told her to do (or not to do) many times he says "1, 2 forget it, I'm not counting to 3" and just swats her :rolleyes: We have to work with him to...I wonder if 1, 2, 3 would work on him. :) He's 20.

Thanks all

[Yvonne Belisle]

It only works on a 20 year old husband if you have a really big paddle! I have a 20 year old husband but no paddle:( counting just isn't the same on someone who can pin you down and tickle you!

[Lilu]

Hi Margie,

I don't have kids yet, but in preparation I've been researching and printing out ANYTHING I think would be useful for when I do. I have a huge folder going! hehe

This is one site I really like for advice:

ParentHoodWeb.com
http://www.parenthoodweb.com/parent_cfmfiles/topics.cfm

They actually have several articles and "advice" on dealing with a two-year-old and discipline. The main line seems to be time-out and there are several suggestions on how you might like to try it.

My friend's daughter is now 14mths and she is just starting to learn what "No" means. She laughs at her mother which is not very good, but will listen to other people depending on the tone they take.

The other day she wanted her mother's wallet (she always wants it) but she was tearing everything up out of it, so her mother took it off her, and she started to throw and tantrum.

I came out with "NO" And told her to be good and play with one of her other toys. DID SHE POUT!!! Wow, it was really kind of funny because she knows I'm serious when I say no. But in five minutes she figured out that all her pouting and sniffing wasn't going to get her anywhere, and started playing with the toy I had handed her. Score one for the adults!? *grin*

Lilu

[Myst]

When I was two it was simply a swat. I got put in the corner several times too which is effective. I used to babysit a boy who was about 8 I think and he hated time out. If he screamed I let him. I didn't get to go to the store much (we didn't have a car when I was younger) but it was understood if I misbehaved I'd go home and not get to come again. It's hard to be calm in the case of a tantrum-y child especially when people are staring at you but believe it or not most of them have been there and understand.

With my two year old niece the best thing to do is ignore her entirely. She throws a tantrum, screams, and the rest, and we all just talk over her or watch tv. Usually she just tires herself out or goes to the corner herself for a few minutes, calms down and comes back to play again....

Some people use the counting method and I've found in my experience it doesn't work. I was always taught that you do it the first time you're told, but counting's good for calming down before you lose it. Then again I might change my mind when I go from babysitter to mother.

Strangely I look forward to this :)

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
Congratulate yourself fo being a good and understanding mom ..... Two year olds are tough, because of where they are developmentally. So many people focus on the discipline, they sometimes forget the child is in there, and the object is to communicate love while setting limits for reasons of safety and socialisation.
I have three grown children and grandchildren,
was a pediatric nurse for years and then was an adolescent psyche nurse for more years :>.
I dont believe in hitting children, because I feel that teaches that "hitting is ok as ameans of communication" As the mother of an 18 month old,,, I am sure you already know that being a mom means continual involvement and paying attention, and that isnt easy .....
I found the best way to communicate and involve a child in what you want them to do is reward the behavior you want, and instead of punishment reduce the attention given to beahvior you dont want. Being consistent is probably the one most important thing you can do , because sending mixed messages causes confusion in children who have no other frame of reference for life but that which we give them at such an early age.
What helped me a great deal was understanding my childrens development,, like knowing that potty training wasnt possible until a childs bladder and bowels are developed sufficiently to be able to have control. I had no trouble at all potty training my children , and I mean NONE..... because I didnt force anything and let it happen at the rate it was supposed to take place naturally. Children have differnt levels of understanding depending on their developmnt as well. It always breaks my heart to see parents try and impose things on children they arent ready or simply cannot or shouldnt do yet,
like making a child sit for long periods of time etc etc. I always smile to see parents who bring their children with them ... to places.... and let them move about a bit, because I know those kids wont have neuroses when they grow up LOL. Time outs work best and are very effective when they are timed to the developmental age of the child. Young children have no concept of time ,and they dont understand minutes ,,,, but they do understand large concepts like soon , or almost. I always talked to my children, and told them WHY they couldnt do this or have that.
I am so gratified to see my daughter being such a good mom, one of the great and deep benefits of being grandmother.......
Love and light
Swannie

[Shy Hawk]

I'd say being one of eight kids...and already being the auntie of 10 beautiful babies...I know just a tad about kids.

Time out is awesome, as long as you enforce it. Just make sure that if you're sending them to their room they don't have a TV, computer, stereo, VCR, video games, etc.....how effective would that be? lol
Also, I was smacked and I dunno....hit a bunch when i was a kid, and I'm afraid that I'll end up doing the same to my kids, which I don't want. I don't think it's constructive.
In the case that a kid is screaming their head off in a tantrum (especially if you just put them in time out)...I say, let them scream. Then start counting the minutes after they stop. It's effective if you are firm but gentle...and stick to your guns like so many others here have said.
:D Good posting people, let's keep it up.
ShyHawk

[Swanspirit]

Part where you said firm but gentle.....
that is so important...... to communicate that you are doing what you are doing from a place of love. I think it is also extremely important to let children know that parents get upset as well but that we can handle it .
After all we are the grownups LOL. I think if it remains paramount in anyones heart that children are people too but not "little adults" you will be fine. There is NO SUCH thing as a perfect parent ........
Love and HUGS
Swannie

[Lilu]

Originally posted by Shy Hawk
In the case that a kid is screaming their head off in a tantrum (especially if you just put them in time out)...I say, let them scream. Then start counting the minutes after they stop. It's effective if you are firm but gentle...and stick to your guns like so many others here have said.
ShyHawk

I agree with letting them scream if they are throwing a tantrum, but if you do happen to be out in public, PLEASE PEOPLE, have a little thought for those of us who are child-less and don't appreciate trying to shop while there's a screaming child following us around (happens WAY TOO OFTEN to me). Take them outside to the car. ;)

Taking them to the car is also a form of time-out. If they don't stop screaming you take them home and they are punished by not being able to shop anymore. And you can use the "Next Time you don't get to come" as a form of punishment too (depending of course, entirely on their age and understanding for that one).

*grin* (from the child-less one)
Lilu (who learns way too much about parenting by watching others and learning what NOT to do). :crazy:

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
My first focus would be the child ......
I think the world has had enough of the ....... excuse me but raise your child somewhere else where it doesnt disturb my "shopping, eating, or other wise public endeavor where children are allowed attitude.
I am not talking about movies, concerts or other places where NO ONE not even the adults are permiited to disturb the entertainment , but out in public mothers do need to take the children and childlike behavior happens, OMIGOSH!!!
I would like to see some increased awareness , tolerance , and empathy for the children (and the parents who are raising them) from the people who dont have children, and even other parents. I have seen this attitude over and over , the attitude that if a child isnt perfectly well behaved
according to some expectation of inexperience
or misunderstnding , that child should just be removed for the convenience of the adults; because it isnt always possible.
I think this attitude that children should just be scuttled off somewhere and only seen and heard when they are being "okay"is part of the widespread problem of not making children a priority in this country.
Eventually children do learn how to behave in public, but young ones dont know yet, and teaching them is a process. But then I think asking children to sit in classrooms day after day isnt healthy or the best way to educate a child either, another result of not making children a priority , we have a schooling system that is outdated,and its no wonder so many moms ; especially pagan moms, homeschool.
On the other hand , I think parents who allow their children to actually destroy other peoples property ,or engage in assaultive bahaviors; need to pay more attention to the behavior of the child, and prevent it. But children are children....... and they arent brought into the world to be perfect little robots to be "conditioned" to behave. I cannot express in words how strongly I disagree, and I hope that experience and increased knowledge will help change this attitude. I would like to say RELAX!!!!! it is a child and children are sometimes loud, and if people would relax a bit and go with it, might make a lot of already frustrated parents jobs a lot easier.
Love and light
Swannie

[Shy Hawk]

Originally posted by Lilu


I agree with letting them scream if they are throwing a tantrum, but if you do happen to be out in public, PLEASE PEOPLE, have a little thought for those of us who are child-less and don't appreciate trying to shop while there's a screaming child following us around (happens WAY TOO OFTEN to me). Take them outside to the car. ;)


Yeah I agree, at the store or in the movies....ack! What a nuisance. C'mon people....the rest of us didn't have the kid, you did...let's try and be considerate. :rolleyes:
lol...once I was in the grocery store, and this kid was tripping out...he was cursing up a storm, saying words I only dream of, to his mother! Wow....it's amazing what some kids get away with.

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
I am sorry to see that anyone anywhere at anytime ever sees a child , a living breathing
soul connected to the goddess in any way " a nuisance". I know that some people do ..... And it is amazing to me that no one responds.
My children were not ever a nuisance, they were growing and learning. Other peoples children are not "nuisances" IMNSHO, they are gifts from the goddess, and the fact that they cry and scream at times isnt the end of the world.
When I am out anywhere, I would RATHER see at any time a parent patiently and with love dealing with and correcting a child , than harshly or other wise "disciplining" a child because the other people consider them a nuisance.
Love and light
Swannie

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Rævyn Cigány
What? Insane? Are you kidding?! That has got to be THE BEST idea I have ever heard!!! Mind if I steal the concept for my own??? I'm just vibrating lately with my daughter because she also is two and a half and boy oh boy, sometimes I'd just like to....never mind...you KNOW....

BB

Rae )0(

8O 8O Sure, go ahead. I really doubt I'm the first Mom to snap like that. I was 22 when I did that (man time flies), and it sure felt good, even if it did scare the child straight!

It was sooo funny! After my ex got re-married, his wife called me and said, "X is the sweetest child! Never raises his voice, does what he's told. blahblahblah. But Y! He can throw the meanest fits I've ever seen! I don't understand!" So, I told her my story. She laughed so hard she wasn't making any noise. :crazy:

See, I never got a chance to "throw my fit" on the baby, and I don't know if she ever did either ~ because he's now a precocious 10 yer old brat! :bad:

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Wildchild


No, I don't think you're insane...I've done this with my son too! We also got him to stop whining too. Whenever he whines, we whine back until someone laughs. It really does work. It makes them see how silly they look. 8O

Another thing that works, if you have a pair of siblings fighting each other, is to make them stand forehead to forehead. It works rather quickly ~ as it's so silly they get the giggles pretty much right away and forget why they were fighting in the first place.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Spirahl
My problem is with stepchildren aged 13 to 21. Daddy has always spoiled them, Mommy is completely focused on herself. So it's not like they see any adult as an authority-figure, let alone one that just entered their life 3 years ago.

Here's my question. Do the kids live with you, or do they live with Mom? My kids live with Daddy and Stepmom. SM used to call me in tears because my kids were running all over her. The baby's favorite line was, "You can't tell me what to do! You're not my mom!" :rolleyes: It's easy to spank a child's bottom over the phone, regardless what you think. First time she told me that, I got the child on the phone and "told him what for". I made it perfectly clear (as clear as I could to a 3 year old, and in my best Mommy Voice) that he lived with SM, so he had to do as she told him, regardless! Then I got her back on the phone and told her to send him to time out to think about it, and she did. Then, I told her that she was 30 (at the time), and that he was 3, and that she couldn't let him walk over top of her; if he got away with it then, it would get worse as he got older. And it's true. Give a kid an inch, and they take the whole sandbox. It's hard. But you do have to put your foot down.

[Margie]

Thank you everyone.
I have to say I tried throwing my own tantrum and it worked ok. My daughter had been watching TV all morning (too much that day) and I told her after this show I was going to change the channel to something I wanted to watch. She says "yes mommy" but when I did change it she started kicking and screaming. So I layed down on the floor and started kicking and screaming "I wanna watch TV! I wanna watch TV!" over and over. She squats down in front of me and starts patting my head saying "ok mommy, it's your turn now, ok mommy". It was pretty funny.

I have to be more consistant with the time outs. I was in the past and just have to try again. Counting to 3 works really good with her to.

She's doing ok potty training. I only put pull ups on her when she sleeps, but my problem: I work from 6pm to 3am or so. When she gets up at 7 I can't quite wake up so I lay on the couch while she watches TV for 1-2 hours-all the while she just pees in the pull up. :( I know that's my fault for not being consistant. She never poops in the potty though. :( And she never tells me she has to pee. I just ask her every hour to hour and a half if she has to go and I take her. By the time she tells me, she's already gone in her panties. <<sigh>> patience. :)

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Shy Hawk
Time out is awesome, as long as you enforce it. Just make sure that if you're sending them to their room they don't have a TV, computer, stereo, VCR, video games, etc.....how effective would that be? lol

We had a time out chair in our living room, and that was the only thing that chair was used for. We used the minute-per-year-of-age-of-the-child (ie, if X was 10, he sat for 10 minutes), and the child wasn't allowed to speak, play, or be spoken to while in time out. He was there to be thinking about what he'd done wrong.

hit a bunch when i was a kid, and I'm afraid that I'll end up doing the same to my kids, which I don't want. I don't think it's constructive.

There's a difference between a swift swat on the behind and beating a child. What hurt me more as a child was the, ANSWER ME! comments and opening my mouth to answer and getting, "Oh, shut up already". :rolleyes: You can do more harm emotionally (IMHO) with the words coming out of your mouth than you can with the well-placed flat of your hand on a rear-end. But you have to be consistant, as in all things when it comes to children (and puppies and kittens). You can't reward them for one thing on minute and not the next; conversely, you can't punish them for one thing now and not the next. You'll only end up with a confused, rebellious child.

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry
About Potty trainnig .... forget IT!! and it will simply happen. I didnt even potty train my daughter..... I just kept her in "dipes" ( they didnt have pullups then LOL) until she was ready and put out the potty chair. One day I noticed my SON her older brother Michael pointing to the chair ; I think he was speaking toddler at the time , and she walked over and used the potty , and used it almost consistently after that with very few interruptions . I dont even call them accidents ;) . Again Michael let ME know when he was ready to stop wearing diapers to bed at night , it was his decision LOL. Relax, moms, and let nature(goddess) do her natural process with your kids. She does a beautiful job , and makes yours lot easier, and gives more room to enjoy your children, they grow up so very fast.
I still say you havent lived until they ask for the car keys!
Love and light
Swannie

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
I have seen this attitude over and over , the attitude that if a child isnt perfectly well behaved according to some expectation of inexperience or misunderstnding , that child should just be removed for the convenience of the adults; because it isnt always possible.

I am a parent and it aggravates ME when parents are inconsiderate with a screaming child. It's been my experience that children misbehave in public because 1) they've not been taught any better or 2) Mommy just had to go to WalMart or the grocery instead of letting the child take a nap. I never, ever took my kids out of the house any time near their naptime or mealtime. That's hard on an adult ~ imagine how hard that is on a child, particularly one too young to understand what is going on, and all he udnerstands is that he's hungry, and/or tired. Or 3) the parent just is plain ignoring the child ~ a HUGE no no in my book. Never ignore your child.

I think this attitude that children should just be scuttled off somewhere and only seen and heard when they are being "okay"is part of the widespread problem of not making children a priority in this country.

I think that too many people are making too big a priority out of their children. Children are children ~ most of them don't even know how to BE kids anymore. Yes, they are "small adults", but that can be taken to huge extremes. Children are NOT the center of the universe. Yes, they are our future, but they won't know how to handle BEING adults if they're not taught how to live first. (ie, I don't like anybody being handed something just because they asked for it) GimmeGimmeGimme children grow up to be GimmeGimmeGimme adults, and that's totally unsightly.

I think parents who allow their children to actually destroy other peoples property ,or engage in assaultive bahaviors; need to pay more attention to the behavior of the child, and prevent it.

It's been my experience that kids who engage in this type of behavior are being taught to grow up in a throw-away world. They're not taught from the beginning that this type of behavior is unacceptable. By the time someone has begun engaging in said behavior, usually it's too late to do anything about it.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Margie
She squats down in front of me and starts patting my head saying "ok mommy, it's your turn now, ok mommy". It was pretty funny.

LOL! :D That's terrific!!

[Myst]

Originally posted by Mairwen
There's a difference between a swift swat on the behind and beating a child. What hurt me more as a child was the, ANSWER ME! comments and opening my mouth to answer and getting, "Oh, shut up already".

My mom's mother had 13 kids. They got smacked and spanked often as well as screamed at. Once her mother even threw a butcher knife at her. Yet my mom doesn't even really remember any of that - but she does remember her mom calling her stupid daily and never telling her she loved her.

That is a real testament to how a swat on the behind means NOTHING when you show your children you love them and support them, IMHO.

[Spirahl]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Here's my question. Do the kids live with you, or do they live with Mom? ... And it's true. Give a kid an inch, and they take the whole sandbox. It's hard. But you do have to put your foot down.

The oldest are out on there own.One I finally kicked out because he is a drug addict and was bringing a lot of dangerous things and people around the house. Doing the drugs in front of his kid brother and stealing from us, as well as saying things to cause probs between hubby and I. Now his girlfriend is pregnant and he wants to come back, this is still at a discussion stage. I don't want him back. He's already been back twice before, makes the promises, and is back into it a week later.
Hubby jsut won full custody of the youngest. It was a week here, week there for a long time. Communication with hubby's ex has never occured. She's done things like change an email that hubby sent to his son to make it look as if hubby was threatening her with murder. She's quite unstable.
Hubby at once expects me to raise his child for him, since I'm home and he works long hours, and yet will not give me the authority to do so. If I correct his child about anything, he goes to Daddy in pity-me mode and plays it up. Then hubby gets on my case for "nit-picking" his child. But I won't stop, hubby would (and has) let the child run the household. It's a real battle some days, not in front of the child, though I know he's caught on because he uses it to his advantage. I'm really at a loss. These kids, sorry to say, no one particularily likes. They do not get along with their peers, their extended family tries to avoid them. They are a terribly spoiled bunch. Hubby has admitted that he has a prob with disiplining, and I do understand the reasons. He was adopted and his kids are his only "blood", reinforced by his abusive adoptive father who used to beat him bloody and never laid a hand on his genetic children. Hubby has a temper and avoids the whole issue, afraid that it will get out of hand like he experienced. I do understand, but... sure as heck does not make my life easy or pleasurable most days. Any suggestions welcome.

[Shy Hawk]

Originally posted by Swanspirit

...I am sorry to see that anyone anywhere at anytime ever sees a child , a living breathing
soul connected to the goddess in any way " a nuisance". I know that some people do ..... And it is amazing to me that no one responds.
My children were not ever a nuisance, they were growing and learning. Other peoples children are not "nuisances" IMNSHO, they are gifts from the goddess, and the fact that they cry and scream at times isnt the end of the world.
When I am out anywhere, I would RATHER see at any time a parent patiently and with love dealing with and correcting a child , than harshly or other wise "disciplining" a child because the other people consider them a nuisance....

I agree with you on many points here...I agree that children need to grow and learn...and that a baby crying isn't something to get in a huff about.
However, I don't think there's anything wrong with disciplining a child when they are being bad. Using foul language, kicking and screaming, throwing things off the shelves at supermarkets....that's what I consider behavior that should be disciplined. And, please don't think I condone violence toward children, or any of that. By disciplining, you could do the time out thing...or whatever it is you do.
But I don't think that a child who is having fits....just because he/she has learned they can should be ignored, and left to do it, chocked up to the fact that they are learning.
In my opinion "nuisance", is not so harsh a word.
These are my opinion, and mine alone. There is no need for us to argue it, however.

[Shy Hawk]

Originally posted by WillowRaven


My mom's mother had 13 kids. They got smacked and spanked often as well as screamed at. Once her mother even threw a butcher knife at her. Yet my mom doesn't even really remember any of that - but she does remember her mom calling her stupid daily and never telling her she loved her.

That is a real testament to how a swat on the behind means NOTHING when you show your children you love them and support them, IMHO.

My mother grew in a household that spanked...if that's what you want to call it. I think spankings must've been different in the 50s though, because by today's standards, they seem brutal.
Anyhow, she says that none of that had any lasting effect on her, and that her and her sister only remember the love in the home that was had. And that their mothers always spoke to them with respect, and let them have their dignity.
Words hurt, however. As we all know so well ourselves.

[Yvonne Belisle]

The fact is that society has changed this world is very different from the world that our parents were raised in. It is a throw away society and there is a large focus on spanking is a no no. I have seen children call Childrens services and claim to be abused because they were told to clean their room. Where do they learn this??? School the news people on the street telling them that their parents can't treat them that way. There are parents that are afraid to disipline their children why because if they are in time out too long it's abuse if they are yelled at it's abuse if they are spanked it's abuse.......Where do you draw the line? Legaly in the state of California it is child abuse if you spank with anything but your hand or if there is any mark after 5 minutes. There is a difference between a spanking and a beating. There is a difference between yelling at your child and demeaning them. The childrens services have a cycle that they follow at the begining of the cycle a child is killed that should have been protected so they crackdown on everything then it reaches the point where they intervine when they should not have and the parent has the money to make it public so they back off to the point where the cycle repeats. The middle ground must be found! In the mean time parents need to do the best that they can with what works with their child/ren. For some timeout is great for some a spanking for some revoking privledges but as parents part of our job is to make sure that we don't cross the line and that the children know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are loved and worthwhile. To a child that knows they are loved disipline is a much easier thing because the desire to please is intense.

[Shy Hawk]

Alright, I can agree with this post entirely yvonne.

[Myst]

Spirahl : Therapy? No seriously. Or at least have your husband talk about this to somebody. If you can afford it I suggest you find a family counsellor who can observe without prejudice, help your hubby get over what happened, and help you both learn effective ways to correct the kids. You might even ring the counsellor at your childrens' school to see if they can help.

As far as disciplining, I was spanked and swatted as a child as well as given the belt at least once. And at the same time my parents gave hugs and love daily, told me they were proud of me and applauded my achievements, and were always there to talk to and guide me in times of need. The worst punishment is when they told me they were disappointed and expected better behaviour from me. So I grew up to be respectful of other adults and with a good solid ethical and moral framework. I think I have the best parents in the world, and I think they were right in swatting me or spanking me if I needed it.

As the belief that you should never strike your children grown so has violence in schools and crime in general. Those school shootings would never have happened when your parents were children, or even just 20 years ago - and when your parents were children a lot of their parents had a gun on the premises for protection (especially on farms), so don't tell me it's because guns weren't as available. When I was younger you respected your elders, period, whether they were your parents or teachers or someone you met on the street. These days I have even had kids mouthing off to me as I walk down the street for NO reason.

[Lilu]

Originally posted by Mairwen


I am a parent and it aggravates ME when parents are inconsiderate with a screaming child. It's been my experience that children misbehave in public because 1) they've not been taught any better or 2) Mommy just had to go to WalMart or the grocery instead of letting the child take a nap. I never, ever took my kids out of the house any time near their naptime or mealtime. That's hard on an adult ~ imagine how hard that is on a child, particularly one too young to understand what is going on, and all he udnerstands is that he's hungry, and/or tired. Or 3) the parent just is plain ignoring the child ~ a HUGE no no in my book. Never ignore your child.



Thanks Mairwen, I don't think I could have said it better myself.

My experience has been that there is USUALLY a reason the child is behaving like this. My own friend has tried excusing screaming and angry behaviour of her daughter because "she didn't get her nap". Why didn't she get her nap? Because the mother didn't make TIME for one. I think that's worse than dragging them around and letting them scream. And you're right, they don't understand "If you're good for another 10-15 mins THEN we'll eat" They don't understand you apologising to them for letting them go hungry, or not letting them sleep, they just scream.

One time I was in the grocery store and from THE MOMENT the woman walked into the store her baby was screaming (and I mean literal screaming at the top of it's lungs). She didn't bat an eyelid. She put it in the cart and proceeded to IGNORE IT while she was shopping. I nearly went over and picked it up myself I was so DISGUSTED with the mother. Now, I can see if a child starts near the end of your shopping, and if you are doing all you can do to try and settle them down and assure them that things are OK. But when the child was OBVIOUSLY screaming BEFORE she got in the store, and to IGNORE it? That's just disgusting behaviour on the part of the mother. And it's these people I have no respect for. In fact, it so upset ME that I left in the middle of my shopping and came back later, I just couldn't listen to this mother neglecting her screaming child.

As for not disciplining your child, or continuing to let them scream in a public place such as a restaurant, store, movies etc. ALL it is teaching them is that THAT is acceptable behaviour in public, when frankly, IT'S NOT. I was NEVER allowed to behave like that in public, and if I did I was taken to the car where I was told that I had TWO CHOICES. Continue to misbehave and I go home and don't get to come next time. Or choose to stop misbehaving and we could go back in the store. And my mum did this will all three of us. We were never allowed to misbehave like I see so many kids doing now days in restaurants and such.

IN MY OPINION, Most of it comes down to knowing your children's limits. And realising that YOU can't act the same way that you did pre-children. When you might have been able to eat out, go to several different stores, get your grocery shopping, mail, etc. all done in one day in the past (and think back to how tiring that was WITHOUT children), when you have children I would think it would more intelligent to plan your days around that. Do grocery shopping one day, walmart the next, post office and some small shops the next, and so on. But then, I'm an organiser, I could do that, I can certainly see where some parents don't have that luxury, still they should make more of an effort to go during times that their children aren't going to be tired, or hungry etc.

I think what bugs me the most is the times that I got OUT OF MY WAY to be in places that children SHOULDN'T be allowed to misbehave, when I'm not in the mood to put up with screaming children, and then run into them anyway. Such as going to an EXPENSIVE RESTAURANT and paying a fortune just to experience a QUIET place to eat our, only to find that country-club people two tables down are ignoring their children and letting them run around the tables. OR going to an "R" rated movie where you aren't supposed to find minors, and yet parents are dragging their children (some as young as 8) into the movie with them and they just act disruptively. That's what annoys me more than anything.

Anyway, what I was more trying to say than anything, is that there's USUALLY a reason a child screams in public, and it's usually because their needs aren't being met, and sometimes the best thing you can do for the child is to isolate them from other people, calm them down, and ascertain why they are acting like they are.

Lilu

[Mairwen]

You go, Willow! Excellent post!!!

[Lilu]

Originally posted by WillowRaven
Spirahl : Therapy? No seriously. Or at least have your husband talk about this to somebody. If you can afford it I suggest you find a family counsellor who can observe without prejudice, help your hubby get over what happened, and help you both learn effective ways to correct the kids. You might even ring the counsellor at your childrens' school to see if they can help.

As far as disciplining, I was spanked and swatted as a child as well as given the belt at least once. And at the same time my parents gave hugs and love daily, told me they were proud of me and applauded my achievements, and were always there to talk to and guide me in times of need. The worst punishment is when they told me they were disappointed and expected better behaviour from me. So I grew up to be respectful of other adults and with a good solid ethical and moral framework. I think I have the best parents in the world, and I think they were right in swatting me or spanking me if I needed it.

As the belief that you should never strike your children grown so has violence in schools and crime in general. Those school shootings would never have happened when your parents were children, or even just 20 years ago - and when your parents were children a lot of their parents had a gun on the premises for protection (especially on farms), so don't tell me it's because guns weren't as available. When I was younger you respected your elders, period, whether they were your parents or teachers or someone you met on the street. These days I have even had kids mouthing off to me as I walk down the street for NO reason.

Wonderful post!!! And yes, I was raised with the "respect your elders" too. I have since revised that now that *I* am an adult to "Respect those who GIVE YOU respect". Sometimes, frankly, there are some people who are older than you who don't deserve your respect. But you should always BE RESPECTFUL until someone mistreats you. Then you just shouldn't have anything to do with them.

And I was spanked as a child too. Not often, but we sure knew if we were getting spanked we had done something VERY WRONG. I don't know if I really want to use spanking with my own children, I more agree with the time out practice. I hope that things won't even require anything more than that.

My husband surprised me one night. We were talking about things we wanted to instill in our children when we have them, and he said "The FIRST thing I want to teach our children is to have RESPECT for other people."

Lilu

[Yvonne Belisle]

Please remember that a tantrum is different than crying for a good reason ie hungry sleepy sick hurt. A tantrum is a tool of manipulation and normally a direct result of the word no. It is staged to get you to do what they want such as buy the toy or cereal they want. This is not something to be wanted. No parent should be forced by social blackmail to do something just because the child wants it. If you can break them of tantrums early then you are going to be much happier. I know that if my child needs to sleep and they throw a tantrum to stay up and I give in I am not meeting my childs needs. No child should be up till 2am on a school night then woken up at 6am to get ready for school. Also what kind of a parent would you be if know that something is not good for your child but you give it to them anyway because someone is glaring at you because they started a screaming fit in the store. In this day and age the comment would you like to step outside has a compleatly different meaning than when our parents said it. My children know that if I feel the need to leave a restraunt due to behavior or a store because of a fit then there will be a spanking when we get home. I will not be held hostage to such blackmail and I think that to do so would cause more damage developmentally than a quick swat on the backside.

[Shy Hawk]

Ladies I like what I'm reading, keep it up.

[Lilu]

I agree Yvonne. Your approach to tantrums and such pretty much mirror my mother's. And how I would also like to approach it.

Lilu

[Myst]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
My children know that if I feel the need to leave a restraunt due to behavior or a store because of a fit then there will be a spanking when we get home. I will not be held hostage to such blackmail and I think that to do so would cause more damage developmentally than a quick swat on the backside.

When I was younger we didn't have a car, thus we didn't get to go to restaurants or stores too often - except the grocery store and the little village restaurant. Going out to new places was a REAL treat. When we misbehaved we left and went home and next time we knew we'd be left at home with a babysitter, period. We also knew when we got home we'd be punished. If a child starts screaming in the store like that it means it's time to hastily get done and out of there, whether it's because they're hungry or tired or they are throwing a tantrum and need to learn that that's not acceptable.

One thing that gets me is parents who bribe their children to behave and if they do they'll get a treat. Now there's a serious difference between saying to a child who understands "now I know you're angry but mommy will only be one minute and then how about we go home and watch your new caillou tape together, ok?" and then quickly getting out of the store and keeping your promise, as opposed to "if you be good mommy will buy you a candy bar" over and over 40 times while mommy continues shopping leisurely and the child keeps screaming...
I know a few people who have thus conditioned their child to demand a present or candy every single time they go shopping, now that's ridiculous.

And Lilu, I agree about the respect thing, not every elder does deserve to be respected if they do something disrespectful... for example, I don't mean a child should respect an elder as much as to say "ok" and get in when told to get in the car by an elder. But I think children (and adults too!) should have enough respect to hold the door open, use manners, and obey reasonable requests (ie. not pet the doggy when the owner says no, be quiet if asked, pick something up for someone, etc. even if they are a stranger).

[bloodstone20]

Originally posted by Margie
I want to know what you do to discipline your children. I'm having a very hard time with my two year old talking to me snotty, just not listening in general when I call her to me repeatedly to talk to her about something she did good or bad. Potty training etc....

In a thread in Just Talk...



I did smack my daughters hand when she was past 9months when she reached for a light socket or something that would hurt her. And now she's 2 1/2. When I tell her to do something she says "oh-ka-ay" in that snotty teen-ager tone. I've gotten her to say "yes mommy" instead. But when I tell her to stop doing something, (like licking the screen door, poking the baby in the eye) she'll stop and continue as soon as I turn my back. I'll tell her to stop again and it continues till I smack her on the butt... then it stops for a couple of minutes. Sometimes I make her go to her room (so I don't have to spank her)and she screams bloody murder at the top of her lungs...she sounds like I am beating her!

Also what do you do in public since you get stared at and dirty looks if you give your child a swat on the behind.

Thanks for any help.
Sorry, just couldn't read all 40 + letters.
When I am babysitting, someone miss behaves, in the closet they go. Normally this happens during hte first 3 min, so 3 hours later, they are sound asleep when they're parents get home. :)

[Yvonne Belisle]

If the closet is big enough I don't see a problem there and if they know that they can get out if they need to it can be a good tool. I wouldn't lock them in and I wouldn't expect them in a closet full of stuff so that they could get hurt but as a place to go till they calm down it has definite possibilities.

[bloodstone20]

walking closet. Only cloathes, and a sleeping bag and pillow, after the 5th time. ;)

[Yvonne Belisle]

Then it is about the same size as the timeout rooms used in special education classrooms in Utah. Actually it's bigger because there was only room for a chair in the one in my sons class when we were there. It's a safe contained area for them to step back and calm down in.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Lilu
I was NEVER allowed to behave like that in public,

I never was, either, and neither are my boys. And I agree, you have to know what you're child is capable of understanding and capable of doing. You have to be realistic.

I think what bugs me the most is the times that I got OUT OF MY WAY to be in places that children SHOULDN'T be allowed to misbehave, when I'm not in the mood to put up with screaming children, and then run into them anyway.

Hear! Hear!

there's USUALLY a reason a child screams in public, and it's usually because their needs aren't being met, and sometimes the best thing you can do for the child is to isolate them from other people, calm them down, and ascertain why they are acting like they are.

Very, very well said.

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
The "debate" about whether a parent needs to hit their child goes on and on .. but let me just say that I am firmly and permanently on the side of NO HITTING, and as an experienced parent , I can say my children were more well behaved than many parents of those who #1 did hit,and #2 get into power struggles with their children early on. I am also firmly on the side of the parent is in charge at all times, which takes time and involvement. I would never hit a child with anything... but to condone hitting with any object,, belt or a brush is abusive in my estimation,,,,pure and simple.
There is no way to judge how hard you are striking a child, and how much harm you are doing.
I think temper tantrums can be extremely difficult but with consistency they can be dealt with. Its amazing to me how some of the same people who wouldnt hit an animal would hit a child.
Respect is wonderful but love is more important, in my opinion, and if you are coming from a place of love then respect follows. I dont respect anyone who would hit a child.
The actual truth is children do what you DO not what you say, so no matter how much you talk about respect, unless you behave toward people in a respectful manner, you wont teach any child to have respect. Say if you LIE you are teaching your child to lie etc etc, whether or not you tell them until you are blue in the face not to lie, they can point to specific examples and see where you have deliberately decieved someone and they take that behavior on.
It is really convoluted to blame the"violence in the schools " on not being hit at home??
I think that absent fathers and a society that tolerates and promotes violence as entertainment; and teaching violence in the home by way of hitting ; has more to do with violence in the schools, but that again is my opinion. I think the problem is much more complex and its easy and facile to say that is why the violence persists in the schools,some
vague notion that if we had our parents values etc etc that would be the answer.
After doing years of psychiatric nursing care
of said violent adolescents, I can assure you that the most violent kids came from violent , abusive chaotic homes, not from stable homes where children are loved and treated with consistent and caring nurturing parents.
Love and light
Swannie

[Shy Hawk]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
I dont respect anyone who would hit a child.

Do you not think that you are alienating yourself from a lot of people just because you differ on parenting methods? And, are you saying you don't respect anyone who hits their child period...like, swats them, spanks them, smacks them, or any of these things? Or do you mean hits them with objects?..Beats them, and was referring to abusive treatment.
I would really like to know. Because if you're saying you don't respect anyone who swats their child, for instance...you have just stated that you have no respect for many of the people you associate with on a daily basis, were raised with, and talk to on this board...
But I'm not going to jump to conclusions...anymore. Heh, sorry.
Just please clarify what you meant, because...I am sort of seeing that statement as rather harsh....the way it stands.

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
You havent seen HARSH!! Harsh is taking care of a two year old with broken bones who has been in the emergency room five times in the past month,,, the court decide to return the child to the home and the child dies.
HARSH is taking care of a young girl who has been hit by their MOTHER with a pipe. Harsh is watching a parent yank their child by their ear in a grocery store because they were yelling. If you feel that it is harsh,I am sorry, but I am entitled to choose who I respect.
And I dont respect anyone who HITS a child, and you know what ?? if you cant tell the difference between what I mean by hitting and "swatting" how can anyone else ? What is a swat from a six foot 200lb man to a two year old that knocks him across the room because they didnt realise how hard they struck and they just meant to "swat" and especially in anger? I am not a mother that has never yelled at her children , believe me, or never been frustrated or angry or any of the other things that moms go thru .... But I never had to hit them,and I wont and dont condone or repect hitting of any kind.
Love and light
Swannie

[Shy Hawk]

Abusive behavior is not something I condone...and yes, some people do not have the ability to judge what is abusive, and what is not....

I'm not disagreeing with you because I chose to discipline my children by spanking....nor have I ever spanked a family member. Whether or not he deserved it...you may argue that a child never deserves to be spanked...some will disagree....

Some insight as to who I am will also tell you that I have actually chosen not to hit...in any way, my family nor my children. Which may surprise you because I am arguing the opposite with you, tooth and nail, as it were....

But I am arguing the point only for those who chose to raise their children that way....I think it's unfair to think that if you spank your child, you are abusing them. There are many good parents in the world...who chose to spank. It is what they believe works..and who am I to say that that makes them a bad parent. I will stress once again that there is a difference between abuse and discipline....and I will also say, that if a parent cannot tell the difference between the two, they shouldn't spank at all.

And yes, I know what abuse looks like, and yes, in its most horrible forms. And, if you look at it closely, you will find that we agree on this more than it seems on first glance....

Hmm....I had this written in a different order and confussed it, please disreguard any useless banter.

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
Is a term that has unfortunately has been
overused and made ineffective. I dont think that a tap on the hand consitutes "abuse" so much as a parenting choice that could be different or improved.
I dont find any of what you said useless banter :>.
I think there are lots of good parents that include hitting or spanking because they believe it is the best thing, and its the best they know. I know people who take umbrage at the word "dysfunctional" when the truth is using dysfunctional means at least something is functioning ,( LOL) just not as well as it could. The stats say that 97% of the families in this counrty are "dysfunctional" and they cant find the 3% that are healthy .
Perhaps I am just too much of a veteran of real abuse and worked for too many years with the children from the families that were beyond dysfunctional and on into chaotic and "family structure not evident" as in the child from the streets whose only family is an Aunt with bipolar disorder barely functioning in her own household, and whose parents are both dead of AIDS.
I just cannot stomach watching a child being hit fo any reason, when I know that talking and time outs and attention will accomplish the same goal, which is to teach a child what is acceptable and what is not. Also there is this.... what good is it to teach a child screaming isnt acceptable but hitting is becaue the bigger stronger person does it? And respect for a childs person, to me includes not causing harm to their body, that is an integral part of my definition of respect.
I would love to hear how you made your choice :>
Love and light
Swannie

[Shy Hawk]

See....that wasn't so painful! I'm glad we cleared all of that up.

I agree on many points...and I hope that I'll be a good rolemodel to my children, and be able to talk to them, not scream, and get results. I want to be loving and treat my kids with dignity.

I know that no parents are perfect...I just hope I don't screw up too bad.

I guess I made my decision by watching my older brother get beat...daily. Uh...(sigh) it's such a sad story really. Uh...let's see. He is somewhat emotionally disturbed, and has been...since...I dunno..since they could tell. He's 8 years older than me, by the way.
Anyhow...my mother didn't know how to deal with him...and his behavior was, by all means, destructive, and sometimes criminal. It was a lot for her and my father (who was raised in a pretty....rustic environment)...and hitting was a daily thing. But, it wasn't really...like other people's parents did. My parents tended to hit him with objects. Anything they could find. If you've ever seen a lacross stick...I shudder every time I do.
She (my mother) has broken all sorts of things on him. Wooden spoons, curtain rods, belts, and innumeral other things I care not to remember.
My brother was so bad...well...it is really unfair to say all the things he did but, let me say that....yes he was bad. And, probably deserved jail time at many points in his life. He did go through counceling for several years as a child. As did I and my mother go to counceling, personal, and group. Basically, at some point they decided he was a lost cause....anyhow, he's 26 going on 27 now. I know that there wasn't a lot of things they knew how to do for him then...but I know the hitting didn't help. If probably made things worse.

But it's not my head that choses not to hit...it's my heart. I remember vivid images from when I was barely a toddler...of my brother being punched in the face...kicked...pushed down a flight of stairs once. And it is my heart, that hopefully will stop me from doing this to my family in the future....and I really hope upon hopes that I don't.

You see...we are not much different you and I.

[Myst]

Ok I edited this post after some thought. I guess its time to just agree to disagree - its one of those arguments where people have their own opinions and that's that.

Though it did provide food for thought for when I raise kids.

[Shy Hawk]

Hmm...I've said all I have to say on the subject...and from me, no more can be said. Agree or disagree. I have exhausted myself...excuse me while I bow out of the discussion.

It's been lovely ladies. :D Thanks for the discussion.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
Harsh is taking care of a two year old with broken bones who has been in the emergency room five times in the past month,,, the court decide to return the child to the home and the child dies.

Well, you know what? That's abuse, pure and simple. That's a whole different ballgame from popping a child on the behind. As I've said before, there's a difference between spanking a child an abusing one. Personally, I feel you've gone completely to extremes here. And it's not just you; I've seen it elsewhere, too.

Have you not ever swatted a child's hands to keep them away from a hot stove or out of the dog's mouth?

I agree with Shy Hawk. Because of the comments you've made, you've just alienated yourself from a LOT of people.

What is a swat from a six foot 200lb man to a two year old that knocks him across the room because they didnt realise how hard they struck and they just meant to "swat" and especially in anger?

Again, that's abuse. Anyone with any sense would never strike anyone in anger. Period.

[Lilu]

Originally posted by Shy Hawk
My brother was so bad...well...it is really unfair to say all the things he did but, let me say that....yes he was bad. And, probably deserved jail time at many points in his life. He did go through counceling for several years as a child. As did I and my mother go to counceling, personal, and group. Basically, at some point they decided he was a lost cause....anyhow, he's 26 going on 27 now. I know that there wasn't a lot of things they knew how to do for him then...but I know the hitting didn't help. If probably made things worse.

I knew a boy like this, my sister's age (two years younger than me) and he was a very intelligent kid, he could have really gone places! I *think* he showed signs of being ADD though, as he just didn't do very well in school because he was always being disruptive in class. (Granted I'm not a doctor, but that's what occurred to me years later).

Anyway, this poor boy used to get LITERALLY WHIPPED with a cattle whip by his father, and he was labelled "the bad brother" and his younger brother would get away with murder half the time (the brother is just as bad, he just does a good job of hiding it) and the other boy got blamed, and received the punishment.

Granted, this boy was trouble. He was a vandal, a thief, and just a general smart-ass. And he did do some community service for vandalism at some point. I think it's sad to say, but in my view, his parents REALLY failed him.

There came a point where the school teacher was out of town on vacation, and this boy stole the car they'd left behind, and wrecked it. He was looking at jailtime. I believe he should have gotten it because he should take responsibility for his actions, and it was really a turning point for this boy. He KNEW he was in trouble, and looking at jailtime was really scaring him.

But, of course, the parents couldn't have their boy go to jail, so they paid the teacher off for the car and they decided not to press charges (bad mistake!). So now the boy looked around and you know what he saw? "I can get away with anything now! No matter how bad I get, Mum and Dad will bail me out."

And to this day he is a drunk, a vandal and a thief. And as much as I think he is partly to blame, I really place a lot of the blame on his parents for never paying him any attention (and they were horridly negligent of their children), for abusing him, and for bailing him out when he did get into trouble.

Lilu

[Spirahl]

Thanks for the suggestion WillowRaven. We did try counselling through my stepsons school. We went quite a few times and nothing could get accomplished because he would just sit there, stare at the wall, and refuse to speak. The counsellor finally told us that it was unfair of us to "push" him and that we could resume therapy when he's through the "grieving process". Huh? Sorry, I know that grieving is something that indeed has to occur, but it's been over three years. There has to come a point when you have to stop patting the child and saying "you poor thing!", and present him the knowledge and skills that will help turn him from "victim" to "survivor". Besides, the smirk on his face on the way home from the appointments told me a different story. It was just his way of controlling the situation, and us. And now hubby won't consider going again, he's had previous experience with incompetent therapists, and this experience further supported his opinion that they are all this way.
I love this man dearly, but sometimes I think there's just way too much "baggage" for me to deal with...*big sigh*

[Myst]

Spirahl : well I sincerely hope you guys can work something out :/

Lately ADD has come more to the forefront, as well as dyslexia. Certainly these two problems contribute to the "naughtiness" of some children and I hope people continue to be aware of and on the lookout for these things. I used to babysit a boy with ADD/ADHD.

[Lilu]

Originally posted by Mairwen
I agree with Shy Hawk. Because of the comments you've made, you've just alienated yourself from a LOT of people.


I think that no matter how we decide to raise our kids, we are ALWAYS going to face alienation from one side or the other.

It's important to remember here that we're not here to judge parenting styles, so much as to offer advice to other parents on how to deal with a situation, based on our own experience.

I think the broader the experience, and the different styles of raising children offer us CHOICES in how to raise our own children, so no one's ideas are wrong, they are just choices, and we can either like them or hate them - take them, or leave them.

I would hope that all of us are bigger people, and aren't going to alienate ANYONE for having a different approach to raising children than the majority.

Lilu

[Margie]

Ok, just a random question thrown out there...

What do you do with a two year old who will sit in the time out chair/corner when she is just bored?:rolleyes: <<sigh>>

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
I do agree that we need to "agree to disagree" , but I must say I am amazed to think I am alienating my self for expressing my opinion and feelings on non-violence toward children, and by non-violence I do mean... not hitting, as a parenting choice.
And in abusive situations,,, unfortunately , there is usually a "target child ", frequently a step child or one that has some unusual characeristic.
You know,,, recovery from abuse of any kind: verbal, mental, spiritual, physical, emotional, and sexual, is a long road... and I cannot recommend highly enough any and all twelve step programs, especially co-dependents anonymous for working out any and all relationship issues. As a mental health professional , let me tell you that although I wouldnt ever deter someone from seeking professional help unless I knew it to be from someone unscrupulous; the twelve step and other support groups; besides being free and no-one is keeping records on you ..... have a higher success rate and succeed more rapidly than professional therapy with many of the issues that one would need help with , from family issues to depression , and many others.
So for dealing with family members who have problems.... I would definitely recommend CODA< or AL-ANON. They operate on an unusual ( J/K) premise... that by getting YOU healthy and happy with yourself , you can better deal with and know what to do about your family to help them. Or even leftover issues from past family issues, that seem to lurk in the background and
continue to arise as patterns .
I speak from experience here, and have much happiness in my life because of what I learned
from other people who had been there , and shared their experience, strength , and hope.
Love and light
Swannie

[Swanspirit]

Poor baby.... go give that baby a hug,and a book to read LOL ok ok not to read but just to page thru or ohh I KNOW this, go take a bubble bath with her hehehe, or turn on some music and get her up and dancing , or ask her to do something simple to "help mommy", and definitely reassure her she hasnt done anything ,
or give her a huge piece of paper spread on the floor and crayons if she is past the stage of eating them, or if you have time .... take her outside and show her something in nature.....
maybe she just likes the feeling of getting OUT of the chair LOL, two is that auotonomy vs control developmental stage (Erikson's Developmental Stages and Tasks) so maybe she is trying to get in charge of when she sits in the chair? Try something she can be in charge of ....
Its so hard to know when kids are "regressing and progressing "they do so , so many times in one day :> . You all know regressing ..... going back to an earlier stage for nurturing and comfort, hey we ALL do that LOL,( well istill do) and progressing ... when they feel good enough to take something new on .. which is most of the time LOL. Most of the time mom/ dad doesnt get to think in terms of ohh regressing and progressing LOL we just respond with the parenting skills we have learned, but I found that learning the underlying dynamics of behaviors gave me a broader base from which to act, because I decided from an early age my mother didnt know everything rofl..and I hope my daughter thinks the same thing of me.;)
Love and light
Swannie

[Margie]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
maybe she just likes the feeling of getting OUT of the chair LOL, two is that auotonomy vs control developmental stage (Erikson's Developmental Stages and Tasks) so maybe she is trying to get in charge of when she sits in the chair? Try something she can be in charge of ....

Knowing my daughter, this is DEFINATELY to "take control" of when she sits there or not. But I don't even use it that often...hmmm I don't know what I could make her in charge of though. Any ideas? I do make sure and tell her that she's been a good girl or hasn't done anything bad...

Actually I don't use the word "bad" with her. I say "That's not nice" or "That made mommy angry". We've made it a point to never tell her she's a bad girl. I've read/heard somewhere about that becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. The child starts believing they're bad and continues doing "bad" things. But then she mocks me...<<sigh>> "Did that make you ANGRY mommy?" "Are you ANGRY now?" "That was not nice mommy" But when she says "ANGRY" she's kinda laughing and saying it in a snotty tone. <<double sigh>> :)

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Margie
Ok, just a random question thrown out there...

What do you do with a two year old who will sit in the time out chair/corner when she is just bored?:rolleyes: <<sigh>>

8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

Hug her and compliment her on her wisdom of recognizing when she needs to take a break? Sounds like a lesson we could all learn! :D

[Yvonne Belisle]

When I was 13 I got busted for shop lifting and I went through court counciling with a psycologist and my parents took me to a shrink as well and I will tell you something I remember NONE of what they said. What kept me cleen and kept me from doing it again was remembering my father and the look on his face when he spanked me. I thought about that every time I sat down for a while. The pain and dissapointment that was there will be with me forever. Time out I laughed myself silly why because I like sitting in a quiet place I'm not doing what I didn't want to do in the first place. Grounding didn't phase me all I wanted was to read and to read anything. So what were they to do ground me from school books? I have one child time out works on he is 4 years old. Loss of privledge works decently on two. I have one that counldn't care less about either one they mean jack to him. I have been to parenting classes and read enough books that even childrens services when I called for ideas didn't have any. They even came out and worked with us and I will never forget having a childrens service worker tell me "she doesn't know how I do it because she would have beeten him by now." Some children need a stronger hand but there is a big difference between a smack on the but that leaves no mark and beating the living daylights out of a child. So I will continue to do what works for my children and since my children and I have talked it out and even they have said they occationally prefere a spanking when given a choice "because once it's done it's over" I know that the choices made are the best for us.

[Mairwen]

*standing ovation*

[Shy Hawk]

Whoa...I got busted for shop lifting too...a while back.
It was a heavy hand that came down upon me then...of course, it was a verbal hand. lol....my mother said that she was going to tell my father...which to me, meant certain death.
And when she didn't....I was greatful, for my life. Hehe....I was so upset I got caught and believe me, humiliated, in the first place, I never considered stealing again.
But that was just a memory you reminded me. Sorta OT since there's no moral to the story. lol

Some kids....well...wait, I said I was outta staying outta this, and I meant it. :D

Good talking though, keep it up.

[Yvonne Belisle]

I just want to say that I am proud of everyone for disagreeing in a peacefull manner. Swanspirit I am sorry you no longer respect me as I do spank when I feel it's nessesary but I am glad you respect Mystic Wicks enough to keep it civil. Thank-you.

[Swanspirit]

For respecting each others rights to their own opinion....., it isnt MysticWicks that I repect, but the individual people that contribute...... wish we could get together sometime, you know ... a kind of East Coast MysticStock LOL
Love and Magic
Swannie

[Shy Hawk]

Nice pic swannie...what Goddess is that?

[Margie]

My 2year old likes to get up, climb over the fence we have in her doorway and get into stuff without waking me up. :( Today she pushed a kitchen chair over to our counter, took my cigarettes and broke them up...went and got my deodorant and put it all over the cigarettes. :rolleyes: I didn't spank her which is sometimes my first response :( but I did send her to her room with no TV all day. She's in there SCREAMING "I'M SORRY! SOOOORRRRYYYYY MOMMY! LET ME OUT NOW! I HAVE TO WATCH TV!!!!! MMMMMMMOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!" :(

[Swanspirit]

((((((((Hugs)))))))
I would say stick to what you said about no TV but maybe let up on the time ... based on how she behaves i.e. stops screaming etc etc so you can work in rewarding some behavior,
You know ... as in.. I would love to let you watch some TV, maybe all day is too long ..... if you show me you are really sorry , you wont do anything like that again and you stop screaming about it and get to where we can talk, because we "cant talk if you are screaming",and if we cant talk I cant change anything about the TV.
One morning many many years ago, my son and daughter got up very early and very quietly, and sprinkled Nestles Chocolate all over our two guests that were staying over and sleeping in the living room in sleeping bags on the floor. They covered them from head to toe in powdered chocolate. Make you wonder what they were thinking doesnt it? Lets see my son must have been ohhh three and my daughter two at the time,,,, gee I think I will call them up and remind them of that LOL. They never did it again ....but they thought they were having fun,and they had to help clean it up. I was mortified ....but the guests thought it was funny, and looking back I am so very grateful it was the powder and just could be shaken off and vacuumed , and not the syrup!
I just have to ask this , does your little one object to your smoking?
Love and HUGS
Swannie

[Swanspirit]

Merry merry ,
Is from an Art Deco Sculpture, that I thought was so beautiful,,, I think of her as Athena; Goddess of Wisdom, who sprung full grown from the head of her father.... I changed the color scheme from the original to better coordinate a friends page, here is the original .
Love and Light
Swannie

[Margie]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
I would say stick to what you said about no TV but maybe let up on the time ... based on how she behaves i.e. stops screaming etc etc so you can work in rewarding some behavior,
You know ... as in.. I would love to let you watch some TV, maybe all day is too long ..... if you show me you are really sorry , you wont do anything like that again and you stop screaming about it and get to where we can talk, because we "cant talk if you are screaming",and if we cant talk I cant change anything about the TV.
I just have to ask this , does your little one object to your smoking?


<<sigh>>I seem to be doing alot of that lately. She has yet to stay in her room for any period of time and continues to climb over the gate we have in the doorway. So I keep putting her back in with a little swat on the bottom and tell her if she wants to get out she has to stay in till I let her out. (I'm getting another gate to put above the one we have so she'll encounter a "WALL OF GATE" next time.
This is NO WHERE NEAR the first time she's done something like this. She used to wake up all the time and play in the cat litter :mad: take my makeup and draw on the walls:G and put my makeup in the cat litter.:meanface: She also plays with her own poop, puts it in her little dishes and tries to serve it to me, pulls her panties down and goes on the floor and takes it and puts it in the potty:rolleyes:1...2....3...4...5...6....7....8....9....10...<<deep breath>> This leads me to believe she can control it and chooses not to go in the potty. She'll also tell me (when she's being punished in her room) when she has to go potty (just to get out of her room) and she'll go, but won't tell me when she's not being punished.......:rolleyes::crazy:
:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Shy Hawk]

I thought it was Athena too, my patroness, just thought I'd ask and make sure.

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
that is quite a little girl you have there,
get her some non-toxic play doh LOL,actually I think there is a recipe for some over in the arts and crafts section but there aer lots of them on the net.
WELL .. MY KIDS never played in their own poop !!..... and is there a bridge I can sell you ?, or would you prefer the Empire State Building or the Eiffel Tower!!LOL You poor mommy of a two year old, listening to you and my daughter makes me glad I am a grandmommy......
The dont call them the terrible two's for nothing, do they?:eek: ....trust me this too shall pass,,,,just keep rewarding the behavior you WANT, immediately and use the time outs with the right time for her attention span ,and use whatever she wants most as leverage, but the tims spans have to be short, because two year olds time for attention spans only range from 15 to 20 minutes possibly up to an hour but that is rare. Sometimes it helps to be ready for the break in attention with something else ,and let them do that and then back to what they were doing before.... or onto something else :>
Love and light
Swannie

[Myst]

Originally posted by Margie
What do you do with a two year old who will sit in the time out chair/corner when she is just bored?:rolleyes: <<sigh>>

lol my niece goes to the corner voluntarily sometimes when she needs a break. It has become a place for her to feel bad for herself and mutter about how hard life is till she feels like coming back to play.. I think it shows that the child knows it's ok to need a timeout for yourself once in awhile :)

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
Here is the mother lode link page for all of the twelve step programs...... they are incredibly helpful and have scads of information on their pages..... quizes to see if they will help you etc etc.....
http://foxeshaven.com/12steps.html
Again I speak from experience here.....
and I do know Starhawk has the serenity prayer on her web pages as well. Pagans are especially comfortable at 12 step groups because there is no pressure to be "christian" and you "higher power" is completely of your own choosing .
here is a version I love....
GODDESS GRANT ME THE SERENITY
TO ACCEPT THE PEOPLE I CANNOT CHANGE
TO CHANGE THE PERSON I CAN
AND THE WISDOM TO KNOW
IT'S ME
Love and Light
Swannie

[mol]

Originally posted by Swanspirit

The dont call them the terrible two's for nothing, do they?:eek: ....trust me this too shall pass,,,,just keep rewarding


My kid is 5 now....when do the terrible two's stop?

[Mairwen]

Dunno. My eldest is soon to be 12. It's only getting worse.

What's worse ... He's just like his Momma!:eek:

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
Five was much easier than two; or maybe not so much easier as "different"? ..... I was so glad when my kids were able to communicate, and then again I do say .......
"You havent LIVED until they ask for the car keys"
or wear T-Shirts that say " use Rubber Ducky Condoms" to meet your friends .... I could go on..... hehehehe.
Love and HUGS
Swannie

[Lavender]

Originally posted by mol


My kid is 5 now....when do the terrible two's stop?

:D When do they move out? :D

[Arduinna]

I'm the mom of an 11 year old daughter. I must say I don't have any problem with her at all. I highly recommend "Your Baby and Child, birth to age five" by Penelope Leach. It really helped me to understand that a two year old is not purposefully defying me.

Counting to ten, talking about it, and being told "that is unacceptable behaviour" has worked wonders for me. Being consistant also has been very important. I feel the main reason I don't have a problem now with my daughter, is that when she didn't do what she was told, she had immediate consequences. I also know how to pick my battles. Her health and physical safety is more important to me that if her room is clean. The few times she has been in trouble (going from one friends how anothers without informing me) I grounded her for the rest of the day. She remembered after that. And is very responsable. She's never openly defyed me.

I should probably add that I have been a stay at home mom, and she has been homeschooled her whole life. I keep a close eye on her friends. And don't have to worry about the influence of school "friends" I don't know.

Bright Blessings

[LunaSkyeFire]

I have a 4 yr old nephew that I have helped raise and have had some experience with public tempertantrums adn doing exactly as he is told to NOT do while grinning at me.

I usually handled his public tantrums by reminding him of why he wasn't getting what he wanted and not giving in......sometimes taking him to a quiet corner of the store or the restroom and telling him he was sitting there until he calmed down.
It has worked 9 times out of 10, if it didn't we went home and he went to his room for a nap. I'm not saying I have the solution, but this did work on him. I have gotten some very nasty looks when he was screaming his lungs out, but I know the situation and whoever they are, do not. I know that I am not abusing him, just trying to teach him good behavior.

[Autumn Gemini]

I have a 6 month old and have babysat since I was 13. I have a kid who was 2 when I started keeping him. All my "kids" knew I had a certain tone of voice reserved for when they got out of line. If that didn't work then they got "Alone time". "Bud" was a handful with his own parents but didn't give me many problems since I was consistant with the consequenses. He's now 15 and still behaves for me or my mom when he comes for a visit or to help my dad. My 6 month old has already figured out what tone I use when he's messing with something he shouldn't. I've only had to smack his hand a few times.....and that was only after I said "No!" using the "tone". The best advise....be consistant. Different things work for different kids. All my mom ever had to do to me was take away all my books and my personal writing notebook. With my older brother she had to give him an occasional swat to get his attention.....:) He was the hardheaded one! :devil:


BTW....I think this community is wonderful!!!! :cool:
:boing: