Definitions of witchcraft, wicca, magic, blah blah blah...

[dr_zeus440]

i'm really quite bored so heres a proposal for you all, to find and post what you consider to be an accurate or atleast close definition of wicca, witchcraft, wiccan, witch, magic etc. can be either a link or a paragraph or two or whatever. here goes (now, lets see if the thread sinks or swims);

i think that as far as eclectic wicca can be defined, the exwitch ministeries does a surprisingly good job of it (in case youre wondering, and in case i have to clear my name, its the first time ive come across this site, on the commendations of the author of another site posted down below). there is the smallest amount of bias, but thats only to be expected (and its a lot less biased than some of the hatred-aimed-at-christianity you get in your average pagan forum). the link is http://www.exwitch.org/cms/mod.php?mod=userpage&page_id=2&menu=1200 , but if that doesnt work, try http://www.exwitch.org/ , click articles and scroll down to "what IS witchcraft". hmm, only gripe with this page is that they dont make a distinction between wicca and witchcraft. oh, btw, keep in mind, im not wiccan :P this is my perception of wicca, which is what im asking for in this thread anyway.

for an idea of witchcraft, i closely agree with the guy whose site directed me to the above one. i cant link to it, the clever bugger has disabled the right click option :) but to get there, go to http://www.obsidianmirror.com/mirror.html and scroll down to 'the way of the witch'. well worth reading imo.

aand, last, but not least, my definition of magic comes from terry pratchett's lords and ladies, but that book is currently in my locker so i'll have to come back tomorrow and reply/edit it in :).

[mothwench]

hey, i can't really reply to the definitions thing because i'm not wiccan, and i'm still on the fence concerning the definition of the word witch, or if i want to call myself a witch. i have alot of references to charms and spells in my resources, that aid in protecting against witches or identifying them for what they are. now, up until a short while ago i was fond of the idea of witchcraft and of being a witch. but maybe the definition of witchcraft is actually the practice of magic for evil or malicious or selfish purposes. and really, i don't see myself as doing this at all.

i just wanted to say kudos to you for terry pratchett. lords n ladies is one of my faves as well. :woot:

[Ben Gruagach]

Isaac Bonewits has a brief explanation of different types of witchcraft on his site at http://www.neopagan.net/Witchcraft-Classifying.html

I strongly recommend getting and reading his excellent book "Witchcraft: A Concise Guide" as well. He has it for sale through his webpage too. He goes into a lot more depth on the distinctions that are touched on in that web summary, and provides a lot of excellent info on the history of modern witchcraft and Wicca.

[dr_zeus440]

42 views, 2 replies = thread sinks :) come on people, dont tell me none of you except for ben and mothwench here are up to the task ;)

oh well, moving right along, heres the passages out of lords and ladies that i like (dear mr pratchett, if im treading in your copyright space, tell me, and ill delete the post...)

pages 133, 134 and 150
"what is magic? there is the wizards explanation, which comes in two forms, depending on the age of the wizard. older wizards talk about candles, circles, planets, stars, bananas, chants, runes and the importance of having atleast four good meals a day. younger wizards, particularly the pale ones who spend most of their time in the high energy magic building (it was here that the thaum, hitherto believed to be the smallest possible particle of magic, was successfully demonstrated to be made up of resons (lit: 'thing-ies') or reality fragments. current research indicates that each reson itself is made up of at least five 'flavours, known as 'up', 'down', 'sideways', 'sex appeal' and 'peppermint'.), chatter at length about fluxes in the morphic nature of the universe, the essentially impermanent quality of even the most apparently rigid time-space framework, the implausibility of reality and so on: what this means is that they have got hold of something hot and are gabbling the physics as they go along...
what is magic? then there is the witches explanation, which comes in two forms, depending on the age of the witch. older witches hardly put words to it at all, but may suspect in their hearts that the universe really doesnt know what the hell is going on and consists of a zillion trillion billion possibilities, and could become any one of them if a trained mind rigid with quantum certainty was inserted in the crack and twisted; that, if you really had to make someones hat explode, all you needed to do was twist into that universe where a large number of hat molecules all decide at the same time to bounce off in different directions. younger witches, on the other hand, talk about it all the time and believe it involves crystals, mystic forces, and dancing about without yer drawers on. everyone may be right, all at the same time. thats the thing about quantum"

[Ben Gruagach]

To be honest, debates about the definitions of magic, witch, Wiccan, and Pagan tend to be the oldest and most common discussions on occult messageboards. It gets to the point where many people won't bother going over it all again because they've seen that, done it.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=40070 is a thread here where there was quite a bit of input on the definition of magic in particular.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=46027 is another thread that talks about the differences between witch, Wiccan, Pagan, and Druid. So does http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=8453

Don't be afraid to use the Search feature here at MysticWicks to look up things you're interested to see if what you're looking for has already been discussed. It's usually OK to add something to an old thread too if you have questions and want the thread to pick up again. (I assume Mol or one of the moderators would lock a thread that is off-limits for new posts.)

So, don't take it to mean much if people don't leap in on this particular topic. A lot of people get tired of repeating the same discussions over and over again, especially when they've participating on the board for a while.

[ObsidianShenKa]

i'm really quite bored so heres a proposal for you all, to find and post what you consider to be an accurate or atleast close definition of wicca, witchcraft, wiccan, witch, magic etc. can be either a link or a paragraph or two or whatever. here goes (now, lets see if the thread sinks or swims);

i think that as far as eclectic wicca can be defined, the exwitch ministeries does a surprisingly good job of it (in case youre wondering, and in case i have to clear my name, its the first time ive come across this site, on the commendations of the author of another site posted down below). there is the smallest amount of bias, but thats only to be expected (and its a lot less biased than some of the hatred-aimed-at-christianity you get in your average pagan forum). the link is http://www.exwitch.org/cms/mod.php?mod=userpage&page_id=2&menu=1200 , but if that doesnt work, try http://www.exwitch.org/ , click articles and scroll down to "what IS witchcraft". hmm, only gripe with this page is that they dont make a distinction between wicca and witchcraft. oh, btw, keep in mind, im not wiccan :P this is my perception of wicca, which is what im asking for in this thread anyway.

for an idea of witchcraft, i closely agree with the guy whose site directed me to the above one. i cant link to it, the clever bugger has disabled the right click option :) but to get there, go to http://www.obsidianmirror.com/mirror.html and scroll down to 'the way of the witch'. well worth reading imo.

aand, last, but not least, my definition of magic comes from terry pratchett's lords and ladies, but that book is currently in my locker so i'll have to come back tomorrow and reply/edit it in :).
Hahahahhahahaha! :broomride

My site was linked four months before I came along here.

:woot:

[kathryn-j]

I don't have a definition, unfortunately, but I do think that Terry Pratchett (the god of literature, if I do say so myself) really hits the nail on the head - and not just in that quote. I don't have it with me, because I'm away, but in Carpe Juguulum, there's a fantastic quote on what religion means. I like Granny Weatherwax's take on magic - that it's as much not using it as it is using it. It also makes you think - if you're thinking through your actions, then it's better *not* trying to balance the scales of the universe with magic, but just doing something which will help the course along naturally.

Did that make any sense?

[catgirl]

My personal defination of the word witch is something akin to "a wise/(much) learned woman/man". If someone asks me if I am a witch, I tell them no. I don't consider myself a witch, b/c I don't consider myself learned enough in anything that I consider myself "wise" in it. I do find myself drawn to "witchy" type books, b/c I identify a lot with a lot of the concepts (honoring nature, power in crystals/colors/etc. and that's mostly what I can find around here in the sticks. I don't consider myself purely Wiccan and I not a witch.

I hope that helps somebody.

[Xirian]

I never really thought of a witch being specifically a wise wo(man). I guess I just thought of a witch as someone that pracatices witchcraft or magic of some kind.

I call myself a witch and I practice magic and bits of folk magic. I guess that's what I think of when I think of witch, witchcraft and magic. I do think they can be thought of without connection to the other, but I think they can also be connected with each other as well.

I could be completely wrong too. lol

[RainInanna]

I consider a witch to be a practitioner of "low magic" (aka thaumaturgy) - ie. folk magic, herbcraft, magic focused on the environment around them such as turns of seasons, moon cycles, local devas and energies, etc. I generally think of a witch as one who feels the sacred is found in nature, and acts accordingly.

I don't practice folk magic, or herbcraft, though my spiritual view is panentheistic and I do focus on the sacred in nature around me, so I've recently been wondering if witch is not the best term for me. *shrugs*

[Xirian]

I consider a witch to be a practitioner of "low magic"....

I keep seeing people refer to folk magic, herb work, focus on nature in their magical workings as "low magic". So what would "high magic" be or include?

[RainInanna]

"High magic" aka Theurgy is usually ceremonial magic and often involves the invocation of angels, demons, etc.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=define:Theurgy&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
http://www.answers.com/topic/theurgy
http://www.theurgia.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theurgy
http://dict.die.net/theurgy/

[Xirian]

Thanks for the links. I have done the "high" magic before, but only during a meditation type ritual. It was interesting to say the least. I never knew the official name of what I was actually doing and have never thought to catagorize the magic I perform in this way.

Cheers!!!

[Rudas Starblaze]

i suppose it depends on what type of witch we are trying to define as there are a few different types to chose from. as for wicca, i'll leave that up to the wiccans to describe.

my personal definition of a witch is one who was born with/into magical abilities and does not fear practicing both sides of the spectrum and not just the dogmatic biased narrow minded view of the lighter side. i know, i know, some of you are thinking "but magic is gray, its neutral"... but it depends on what your intent is behind using it doesnt it? and it can be used in both benevolent and malevolent ways and gray does comes in many, many different shades and tints.

[Mouse]

Rudas, I'm so quoting that at the next available opportunity. It's probably one of the few deffinitions I can actually agree with. I would say though that there are many more interesting colours than gray, black and white and that a witch would practice all sides of the spectrum, not both.

I wasn't planning on replying to this thread though, so I'll leave the rest of my opinion out. I don't feel up for the same old debate again today.

[raven grimassi]

heres a proposal for you all, to find and post what you consider to be an accurate or atleast close definition of wicca, witchcraft, wiccan, witch, magic etc.

It may be helpful to look at etymologies. In regards to Witchcraft, the earliest word used in Western literature to denote Witchcraft (which is commonly translated as the English word Witchcraft) is the Greek word pharmakis. This word indicates a practice containing knowledge of herbal properties and extractions. Likewise the earliest word translated as "Witch" is the Greek word pharmaceutes, which indicates a person schooled in herbalism. Scholar Richard Gordon states that these words indicated a witch/wisewoman (Witchcraft and magic in Europe: Ancient Greece and Rome).

Following this period we find the word "saga" used to indicate a Witch. This word means a seer. If we put the earliest words together we have an herbalist with divinatory skills. If we add references from ancient literature then we have this same individual who also possesses magical powers and calls upon a variety of forces including a goddess. Here is an ancient text that presents the Witch Medea invoking:

"When the moon shone at its fullest and looked over the earth with an unbroken face, Medea left the building dressed in untied clothes, bare of foot, and with her hair flowing loose over her shoulders. She wandered unaccompanied through the dumb silences of the middle of the night. Deep peace had relaxed men, birds, and beasts. No murmur came from the hedges. The motionless leaves were quiet, the misty air was quiet. The stars alone twinkled. Medea reached her arms up to them and turned herself around three times. Three times she wetted her hair with water taken from a river, and she opened her mouth to howl three times over. She lowered her knees onto the hard earth and said: Night, trustiest keeper of my secrets, and stars who, together with the moon, follow on from the fires of daylight, and you, Hecate of the three heads, who know all about my designs and come to help the incantations and the craft of the mages, and Earth, who furnish mages with powerful herbs, and Breezes, Winds, Mountains, Rivers, Lakes, and all the gods of the groves and all the gods of night, be present here to help me! (Ovid, Metamorphoses 7. 159-351)


Now, when we arrive at the English etymologies, things appear somewhat different. Here we are looking at the words wicce and wicca, and their etymology has been widely debated. I will leave that discussion to people better versed in matters specifically related to Britain.

[~Owl~]

I consider a witch to be a practitioner of "low magic" (aka thaumaturgy) - ie. folk magic, herbcraft, magic focused on the environment around them such as turns of seasons, moon cycles, local devas and energies, etc. I generally think of a witch as one who feels the sacred is found in nature, and acts accordingly.

I don't practice folk magic, or herbcraft, though my spiritual view is panentheistic and I do focus on the sacred in nature around me, so I've recently been wondering if witch is not the best term for me. *shrugs*

I don't believe so, for witches, pagans, and witchcraft in general has nothing to do with high or low magic.

To a witch, magick is magick. It is the "force", energy that is all around us, generating at different levels all the time. As a witch, we connect with these energies, because we are a part of it. We do not "command" them to our will, or use terms such as "high" and "low" magic.

I think your path should go towards the more Ceremonial aspects of magic, not witchcraft.

[Xirian]

I don't believe so, for witches, pagans, and witchcraft in general has nothing to do with high or low magic.

To a witch, magick is magick. It is the "force", energy that is all around us, generating at different levels all the time. As a witch, we connect with these energies, because we are a part of it. We do not "command" them to our will, or use terms such as "high" and "low" magic.
This seems more like my thinking. I have been pondering this "high/low" thing and it just doesn't sit well with me at all. I prefer the terms theurgy and thaumaturgy if one wishes to separate performance magic from spiritual or ritualistic magic.

But I'm still confused as to why one is considered "high" and the other "low", even if the definitions don't seem to jibe. And who is the one that gets to decide this? How is this categorization beneficial? It seems rather judgmental in a way. At first I thought it had to do with the fact that the earth appears lower than the heavens, in regards to humans. But after reading the definitions of each, that doesn't make sense anymore.

From my research, it appears that one is actually speaking about doing actual acts that a magician might do "an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers" or "the performing of miracles or magic" "low magic" or thaumaturgy. And the other is something that one might do when a magical ritual is involved. Calling to the deities or for the energy of other supernatural entities which is "high magic" or theurgy. Contrary to my previous statement, I do not believe that I'm actually performing thaumaturgy as I am not creating illusions for myself or others, nor am I performing miracles.

All of my magic workings seem rather significant to me, none being high or low, really. I can't remember the last time I've done a spell and not invoked the energy of a deity or an element. And what I mentioned in my previous post above was an evocation, not an invocation. I do invocations regularly.

Everytime I do a spell like cooking or cleaning, or meditating, reading my tarot, I call for the energy of a deity or an element. What is it called when one invokes a supernatural entity and are doing workings that manipulate the earthly plane? Plain and simple magic?

Is there something that I'm missing or misconstruing here?

[~Owl~]

As I am a witch, and not a Ceremonial magician, I can only give you the most basic, rudimentary aspects of what one considers "High/Low" magic.

Low magic is considered what you have "within" yourself. Your OWN "powers", andthat of the"powers" that are a part of you, such as earth magic, etc.

High magic is that which is considered "outside" of yourself: the invocations of spirits, demons, demi-gods, and the like to do your bidding at your command.

It is very controversial, and very complex, and VERY dangerous work.

It is real, and it is NOT to be dabbled with.

Witches and Ceremonialists have MAJOR differences in their practices, so I would highly recommend you study both before you put either into practice in your daily life.

[Xirian]

Ahhh!!! That's what I was missing. The invoking of supernatural entities to try to make them do things other than provide energy if they choose to.

Okay. That makes much more sense to me now. Thanks for the explanation SilverFeather.

I don't know that I would consider that "high" magic. But what do I know? :lol:

[RainInanna]

We do not "command" them to our will, or use terms such as "high" and "low" magic.

Indeed what I thought I said must not have been what my post conveyed at all! I spoke not of "commanding" anything, and in fact suggested the witch recognizes and works *with* the sacred around them. I cannot agree that using two common magical terms makes me a ceremonialist, especially given what I do practice (panentheism, celebration of the turning of seasons and cycles of the moon, astrology, divination, etc.). Believe me, I have studied CM and turned away from it quite awhile ago.


But after reading the definitions of each, that doesn't make sense anymore.

Usually "high magic" refers to JCI Gods and angels. These entities are "higher" in Heaven, than trees and plants are on earth. It has nothing to do with value judgment or significance, just focus on placement. It's rather like me saying something is "north" or "south" - one isn't better than the other at all, they are just different directions.

[Xirian]

Usually "high magic" refers to JCI Gods and angels. These entities are "higher" in Heaven, than trees and plants are on earth. It has nothing to do with value judgment or significance, just focus on placement. It's rather like me saying something is "north" or "south" - one isn't better than the other at all, they are just different directions.
Ah, so I was on to something there. Okay, thanks for your explanation as well. It's starting to make more sense to me.

I'm sure there's an extensive thread about this topic somewhere around here. I should probably look for it.

[Greybird]

Digging out Modern Magick: Eleven Lessons in the High Magickal Arts for this one that I read well over a decade ago.

On 'high' magic:

There is another definition of magic that is based upon heredity, the ancient source of the style of magick. The type of magick... ...based in the structure of city life. [comments on the origins of middle classes, or merchants working certain hours and having leisure time while the people living outside the cities had to work from dawn to dusk with little free time] Magick which has evolved out of city lifestyles tends to include long, precise spells, complicated formulae... ...left brain, logic oriented.

On low magic:

Farmers... could not take the time to learn to read or study.. texts and lore... ...they learned the laws of the universe from the gracious Mother Nature... passed orally.

He goes on to say that the terms referred to the fact that cities were built on high ground and farms at lower elevations. I can't guarantee that etymology (perhaps similar to 'upper' and 'lower class?), but the definitions are the ones I've stuck with over the years, and I've never really had a problem with them. Study some ceremonial magic and compare it to most pagan magic. While there are some genuine parallels (and direct borrowings), the ceremonial 'high' tends to be more involved, intellectual rather than instinctual, and so on. That's not to say that both don't aren't rational, or that both aren't passionate, but the feel is different, perhaps like comparing an architect's mathematical art with a sculptor's organic art.

[Xirian]

Thank you for that Greybird.
I'll have to do some studying on this.

[*Rasenna*]

It may be helpful to look at etymologies. In regards to Witchcraft, the earliest word used in Western literature to denote Witchcraft (which is commonly translated as the English word Witchcraft) is the Greek word pharmakis. This word indicates a practice containing knowledge of herbal properties and extractions. Likewise the earliest word translated as "Witch" is the Greek word pharmaceutes, which indicates a person schooled in herbalism. Scholar Richard Gordon states that these words indicated a witch/wisewoman (Witchcraft and magic in Europe: Ancient Greece and Rome).

Following this period we find the word "saga" used to indicate a Witch. This word means a seer. If we put the earliest words together we have an herbalist with divinatory skills. If we add references from ancient literature then we have this same individual who also possesses magical powers and calls upon a variety of forces including a goddess.

Thanks for posting this Raven, it's very foundational. I like that the ancient view includes magic and religion. It's comforting to know that we've not strayed too far when we look back at these roots.

[Carla O'Harris]

Now, when we arrive at the English etymologies, things appear somewhat different. Here we are looking at the words wicce and wicca, and their etymology has been widely debated. I will leave that discussion to people better versed in matters specifically related to Britain.

Hi Raven,

Thank you for your very helpful post. In regards to this last point, I can think of no better source than Bosworth and Toller's Anglo-Saxon Dictionary. This is a top-line source :

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oe_bosworthtoller/b1213.html


wicca, an; m. A wizard, soothsayer, sorcerer, magician :-- Wicca ariolus, Wrt. Voc. i. 57, 40 : 60, 30. Dréas and wiccan arioli et conjectoris (in similitudinem arioli et conjectoris, Prov. 23, 7), Kent. Gl. 869. Drýmen and feóndlíce wiccan and óðre wígeleras, Homl. Th. ii. 330, 28 : Wulfst. 27, 1. Be wiccum, wíglerum, etc. Gif wiccan oþþe wigleras . . . , L. E. G. 11; Th, i. 172, 20 : L. Eth. vi. 7; Th. i. 316, 20 : L. C. S. 4; Th. i. 378, 7. Wiccum a pythonibus, Hpt. Gl. 504, 66. Hi áxoden æt wyccum and æt wísum drýum, Homl. Skt. i. 2, 108. Ða f&aelig-acute;nman ðe

gewuniaþ onfón wiccan, L. Alf. 30; Th. i. 52, 10. Ne áxa náne wicca[n] r&aelig-acute;des nec sit qui pythones consulat nec divinos, Deut. 18, 11. [Symon þe wicche Simon Magus, Jul. 40, 9. Ðe wicches the magicians, Gen. and Ex. 3028. Uor ane wychche þet hette Symoun, Ayenb, 41, 28. Somme saide he was a wicche, Piers P. 18, 69. Wytche, wyche magus, sortilegus, Prompt. Parv. 526. Wyche hic sortilegus, Wülck. Gl. 652, 12 (15th cent.).] v. next word, to which perhaps some of the passages given above might belong.

wicce, an; f. A witch, sorceress :-- Wycce phytonyssa, Wrt. Voc. i. 74, 42. Nú cwyð sum wíglere, ðæt wiccan oft secgaþ swá swá hit ág&aelig-acute;ð . . . Nú secge wé . . . ðæt se deófol . . . geswutelaþ ðære wiccan hwæt heó secge mannum . . . Ne sceal se cristena befrínan ða fúlan wiccan be his gesundfulnysse, þeáh ðe heó secgan cunne sum ðincg þurh deófol, Homl. Skt. i. 17, 108-126. Ánimaþ ða réðan wiccan, seó ðe ðus áwent þurh wiccecræft manna mód, 7, 209. Wiccan pythonissam, Hpt. Gl. 451, 70. Wiccean and wælcyrian, Chart. Erl. 231, 10. Wiccan, Wulfst. 165, 34. Wiccena parcarum, Anglia xiii, 31, 104. v. Grmm. D. M. p. 985.

wicce-cræeft, es; m. Witchcraft, sorcery, magic art :-- Wiccecræft necromantia, Hpt. Gl. 501, 66. Ða heáfodleahtras sind . . . h&aelig-acute;ðengyld, drýcræft, wiccecræft, Homl. Th. ii. 592, 7. Se cristena man ðe his h&aelig-acute;lðe sécan wyle æt unálýfedum tilungum, oððe æt wyrigedum galdrum, oþþe æt &aelig-acute;nigum wiccecræfte, ðonne bið hé ðám h&aelig-acute;ðenum mannum gelíc, i. 474, 22 : Homl. Ass. 28, 99. Be wiccecræfte (veneficio) ð&aelig-acute;r man corn bærnð, L. Ecg. C. 32, tit.; Th. ii. 130, 20, Be wífes wiccecræfte de veneficio mulieris, 33, tit.; Th. ii. 130, 22. Se man ðe begá wiccecræft vir in quo pythonicus vel divinationis fuerit spiritus, Lev. 20, 27 : Wulfst. 71, 2. H&aelig-acute;ðenscipe bið ðæt man . . . wiccecræft (wiccan cræft, v. l.) lufige, L. C. S. 5; Th. i. 378, 21 : L. N. P. L. 48; Th. ii. 298, 1. Wiccecræft álecgan, O. E. Howl. i. 302, 36. Seó wicce ðe áwent þurh wiccecræft manna mód, Homl. Skt. i. 7, 210. Eówer nán ne áxie þurh &aelig-acute;nigne wiccecræft be &aelig-acute;nigum ðinge, 17, 26. Ne gýman gé galdra ne ídelra hwata ne wígelunga ne wiccecræfta, Wulfst. 40, 14. Be wiccecræftum. Wé cw&aelig-acute;don be ð&aelig-acute;m wiccecræftum and be liblácum . . . gif man ð&aelig-acute;r ácweald w&aelig-acute;re, and hé his ætsacan ne mihte, ð&aelig-acute;t hé beó his feores scyldig, L. Ath. i. 6; Th. i. 202, 9-12. Wiccecræftas prestigias, Wrt. Voc. ii. 66, 25.

Please note the important glosses :

ariolus,
diviner, seer. (http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?ariolus)

conjectoris,
soothsayer; interpreter of dreams; diviner, seer (http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?conjectoris)


pythonibus,
familiar spirit/demon possessing soothsayer; soothsayer; (http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?pythonibus)


Magus,
wise/learned man; magician (Persian); astrologer (http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?Magus)


parcarum,
Fate; one of the godesses of fate; (http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?parcarum)


necromantia, an art of communicating with dead spirits.

Several of these have to do with "divination", and specifically indicate an ecstatic kind of divination that implies some kind of possession by the medium or diviner by a familiar spirit of some kind. We are in classical shamanic territory. "Pythoness", which has this very specific connotation, is used several times in different contexts as a gloss for "wicce". We have here as well notions of communicating with spirits in the otherworld, as well as a relationship to the Goddesses of Fate, who are directly connected to the Fairies.

We are in the realm of Spirits, the Otherworld, and Fate. This is indisputably both magical and religious territory. This is merely from an examination of glosses used to explain these terms, a mere "definition" look at "wicca/e". Examining the documents in which these appear in greater context reveals an even greater religious context.

There is no doubt that witches ("wicca" is pronounced "witch-a" and is the source of the later term "witch") were originally religious/shamanic practitioners. Further examination demonstrates that they were specifically connected to the fairy nature-spirits who inhabited wells, trees, and groves, that they were considered to be healers and herbalists as well as teachers, and that while as shamanic practitioners they were subject to the ambivalence and suspicion that all shamans at times are, that they were equally regarded at times with some respect and authority.

Further examination of these patterns and their connection through penitentials to other elements of popular religion connects them with festive celebrations in the woods, ecstatic encounters with pagan goddesses, and connection to hairy "Forest Lord" spirits who have an integral connection to the Horned Lord figure of folklore.

In other words, from the beginning when this term began to be used in the literature, there was an intimate association with a large number of elements found in the modern use of the term "Wiccan".

[~Owl~]

Ahhh!!! That's what I was missing. The invoking of supernatural entities to try to make them do things other than provide energy if they choose to.

Okay. That makes much more sense to me now. Thanks for the explanation SilverFeather.

Glad I could shed some light. ;)


I don't know that I would consider that "high" magic. But what do I know? :lol:

That's up to you dear. I've aready told you the answer to this riddle.You just have to read between the lines.

And you know much more than you possible realize...

Come swing by the Owl's Perch sometime. Many MW members are there as well, coming and going... swapping stories. :) Just click on the banner below. If that doesn't work, for some it does, other's not...


I started it about a year ago. My assistant, and Forum Moderator is Thora from here as well. We've known each other for a few years now, and are very close.she had referred me here, when the Perch was slowing to a crawl. but, just like many Boards, they slow down, and next thing you know, you got a houseful of new new members!

I think we could help you there as well. But please, DO participate here,and keep this thread active. You just may find a Mentor of your own. ;)

Good luck, sweetheart.

[Xirian]

That's up to you dear. I've aready told you the answer to this riddle.You just have to read between the lines.
Yeah, I understand. I do find this topic rather interesting.


Come swing by the Owl's Perch sometime. Many MW members are there as well, coming and going... swapping stories. :) Just click on the banner below. If that doesn't work, for some it does, other's not...
Sure thing, I'm always looking for new places to find information and new perspectives.



I started it about a year ago. My assistant, and Forum Moderator is Thora from here as well. We've known each other for a few years now, and are very close.she had referred me here, when the Perch was slowing to a crawl. but, just like many Boards, they slow down, and next thing you know, you got a houseful of new new members!

I think we could help you there as well. But please, DO participate here,and keep this thread active. You just may find a Mentor of your own. ;)
I will definitely keep posting here. For some reason, I can't stay away.

Thanks!!!

[~Owl~]

I will definitely keep posting here. For some reason, I can't stay away.

Thanks!!!


LOL...

I feel the exact same way. Over the many Forums I've been/am a member of, whether it be Pagan, Astological, Therian, etc. I always invite them to my little place for some breathing room, and just to sit back and relax, along with plenty of good things to say about the "sister" Boards that we also frequent.

I did create a drop down menu, where you could simply scroll to the Forum, click on it, and it would link you there, just like that! But alas, I can't remember how I did it, and now since I've revamped the place a little, {it's nothing fancy, just a nice quiet place, where there's plenty of laughter, as well as teaching, debates, discussions, and just everyday talk.
So far I think I've got 10 or 15 members from MW who go back and forth now...

But I will look into seeing how I can go about getting that drop down menu link set up again. If I could just remember the correct tags. Oh well, that's what the support forum there is for. LOL...

[Rudas Starblaze]

ok, ya all lost me somewhere.. so whats wrong with invoking myself?:smoke:

[Xirian]

ok, ya all lost me somewhere.. so whats wrong with invoking myself?:smoke:
You can't invoke yourself? Hmmm. That's news to me. :D

SilverFeather, I know some of the tags for a dropdown menu as I have my own forum and website. But I know your board is a bit different than mine so my information might be useless to you.

I've already checked things out there and like what I see.

[Greybird]

ok, ya all lost me somewhere.. so whats wrong with invoking myself?:smoke:

I don't know. I've been known to evoke myself, but people tell me I'm out of my mind. ;)

[raven grimassi]

In other words, from the beginning when this term began to be used in the literature, there was an intimate association with a large number of elements found in the modern use of the term "Wiccan".

Yes, that is what my own research over several decades has shown me as well. Minus some of the modern eclectic borrowings, and some of the modern phraseology, there is still a continuing tradition from the past. Some see this as an actual lineage and others see it as only a spiritual lineage. I suppose in the end what is important is that Witches and their ways still persist in the twenty-first century. Not bad for a people and a thing that never was. ;)

[BlueMoon13]

..... I suppose in the end what is important is that Witches and their ways still persist in the twenty-first century. Not bad for a people and a thing that never was. ;)
:cheers:

[Carla O'Harris]

Yes, that is what my own research over several decades has shown me as well. Minus some of the modern eclectic borrowings, and some of the modern phraseology, there is still a continuing tradition from the past. Some see this as an actual lineage and others see it as only a spiritual lineage. I suppose in the end what is important is that Witches and their ways still persist in the twenty-first century. Not bad for a people and a thing that never was. ;)

Touche!!