Diff tween tuatha kerridwen and tuatha de dannan

[The Shadowy Dawn]

just wondering if someone can tell me the diff between the Tuatha De Dannan and the Tuatha Kerridwen. and if someone can give me the list of gods and giddesses of the tuatha de dannan.

tanks, :colorful:

[Erithan]

The Danaan:

Danu
Dagda
Dian Cecht
Miach
Airmed
Lug
Goibniu
Credne
Luchta
Ogma
Morrigan
Octriuil
Delt
Daithe
Drucht
Brig
Bres
Cian
Uaithne

There are a whole bunch more than I have listed here...I suggest you familiarise yourself with Lebor Gabala Erenn (particularly part IV) and Cathe Maige Tuired for a more in-depth and contextual look at the Danaan. Both of these are available from the Irish Texts Society. Why do I suggest researching yourself? Because it allows you to develop a one-on-one relationship and understanding with the material, as opposed to others simply listing it off. Also, the information in the books is so much more in depth than could ever be imparted on a message board.

Cheers,

Erithan

[mothwench]

sorry to be an ole spoilsport and please, correct me if i'm wrong. tuatha is irish and means children of or ppl of. danu is an irish goddess.
kerridwen or cerridwyn is welsh, yes-no? so logic tells me the tuatha kerridwen is... uh... an invention of linguistically feeble-minded ppl?
where'd you come across this tuatha kerridwen?

[Nantonos]

tuatha is irish and means children of or ppl of. danu is an irish goddess.
kerridwen or cerridwyn is welsh, yes-no? so logic tells me the tuatha kerridwen is... uh... an invention of linguistically feeble-minded ppl?
where'd you come across this tuatha kerridwen?

Mpthwench is absolutely correct. This is clearly a poorly researched invention that mixes different languages without regard for history, geography, grammar, or common sense.

Where is it from? (Google knows about exactly one Web page with "tuatha kerridwen", and its this one here at MW)

[The Shadowy Dawn]

came across it in a book

[Ron]

Mpthwench is absolutely correct. This is clearly a poorly researched invention that mixes different languages without regard for history, geography, grammar, or common sense.

Where is it from? (Google knows about exactly one Web page with "tuatha kerridwen", and its this one here at MW)
I'd hate to burst your bubble, but there are several ways of spelling "kerridwen", the former not being the most popular. Which may be why google knows only one page on it.

However, Her Grace Cerridwyn is a Welsh goddess, not equivalent of Danu at all.

[Nantonos]

I'd hate to burst your bubble,

You would? You'd really hate it? Then rest assured that you didn't, although you seem to have missed the point of the discussion.


but there are several ways of spelling "kerridwen", the former not being the most popular. Which may be why google knows only one page on it.

If you read the thread carefully you will see that the discussion was about the two word phrase "tuatha kerridwen" not the word cerridwen or how to spell it :)


However, Her Grace Cerridwyn is a Welsh goddess, not equivalent of Danu at all.

Uh, yes, there was no dispute that Cerridwen is a Welsh goddess.

Hmm I am told that a -wyn ending would imply a male deity, in Welsh. Anyone here speak Welsh to confirm or deny?

[Ron]

You would? You'd really hate it? Then rest assured that you didn't, although you seem to have missed the point of the discussion.



If you read the thread carefully you will see that the discussion was about the two word phrase "tuatha kerridwen" not the word cerridwen or how to spell it :)



Uh, yes, there was no dispute that Cerridwen is a Welsh goddess.

Hmm I am told that a -wyn ending would imply a male deity, in Welsh. Anyone here speak Welsh to confirm or deny?


awww bless... don't hate on me...I didn't mean :( to offend, as I must have. I was actually agreeing with you, in a sublte manner. I was just a little confused because the Welsh equivalent of Danu is Her Grace Dôn, who wasn't even mentioned. In accordance with the Mabiongon: H.G. Cerridwyn is H.G. Dôn's mother; H.G. Cerridwyn bares no children. So the tuatha Cerridwyn (or however you wish to spell it) would be nil.

I was really talking to everyone, in my original post, not just you... :) I really didn't mean to offend... blesss


Hmm I am told that a -wyn ending would imply a male deity, in Welsh. Anyone here speak Welsh to confirm or deny?
Yes, I speak Welsh and no a -wyn ending does not always indicate masculinity. Rather a -ddion ending would definately indicate femininity - Cerriddion - I have seen this used in North Walian covens. :colorful:

[Nantonos]

I was just a little confused because the Welsh equivalent of Danu is Her Grace Dôn, who wasn't even mentioned. In accordance with the Mabiongon: H.G. Cerridwyn is H.G. Dôn's mother; H.G. Cerridwyn bares no children. So the tuatha Cerridwyn (or however you wish to spell it) would be nil.

Good point, I had missed that one!


Yes, I speak Welsh and no a -wyn ending does not always indicate masculinity. Rather a -ddion ending would definately indicate femininity - Cerriddion - I have seen this used in North Walian covens. :colorful:

Thanks - so -wyn is sometimes in a male name and sometimes female? Good to have a Welsh speaker around. Do you know any Old Welsh? If so I have a pronunciation question for you.

[Nantonos]

Yes, I speak Welsh and no a -wyn ending does not always indicate masculinity. Rather a -ddion ending would definately indicate femininity - Cerriddion - I have seen this used in North Walian covens. :colorful:

Just checking - you said it would definitely indicate femininity?

Isn't Gwyddion male?

[teleri]

awww bless... don't hate on me...I didn't mean :( to offend, as I must have. I was actually agreeing with you, in a sublte manner. I was just a little confused because the Welsh equivalent of Danu is Her Grace Dôn, who wasn't even mentioned. In accordance with the Mabiongon: H.G. Cerridwyn is H.G. Dôn's mother; H.G. Cerridwyn bares no children. So the tuatha Cerridwyn (or however you wish to spell it) would be nil.

I was curious as to which branch of the Mabinogi states this relationship. I reviewed the Fourth Branch and Mathonwy is attributed as being Dôn's father, but her mother is not mentioned. And I reviewed the Hanes Taliesin and it states that Cerridwen was mother to Creirwy, Morfran/Avagddu, and later Taliesin. Is there somewhere else I should be looking?



Yes, I speak Welsh and no a -wyn ending does not always indicate masculinity. Rather a -ddion ending would definately indicate femininity - Cerriddion - I have seen this used in North Walian covens. :colorful:

I'll stick my neck out here. My understanding is that -wyn is masculine and -wen is feminine when formed from/with the words gwyn/gwen (white, fair, beautiful, blessed, holy, shining, etc. -- it's a great multi-purpose word). These web sites have some documented sources for name construction using "gwyn" and "gwen" (the author recently got her Ph.D. in Celtic languages with a dissertation on aspects of Medieval Welsh grammar and I trust her information):

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh16.html

(Nantonos, you may be interested in this one: "The First Thousand Years of British Names" -- http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/british1000/)

According to Gareth King's Modern Welsh: A Comprehensive Grammar, while many older Welsh adjectives with masculine and feminine forms have consolidated into one form over time, gwen and gwyn have not. Gwen is still used with feminine nouns and for women and gwyn is still used with masculine nouns and for men.

There are other Welsh words ending in -wyn and -wen that are used in compounds as well, so words made from these other words may not follow the convention for gwen/gwyn. Also there are words and names that underwent spelling changes over time, for example, the masculine name "Owain," where the "ai" letter combination has evolved to "e"-- "Owen."

There have been a number of etymologies given for the name "Cerridwen," the explanation I've seen most often given by modern linguists are cerdd (poetry, song) + gwen (beautiful, holy, fair, etc.) ["Holy Poetry" or "Beautiful Poetry" makes some sense as she seems to have been a patroness of poetry/bardic arts/inspiration] or cariad (beloved or loved) + gwen (beautiful, holy, fair, etc.), all of these using "gwen" and taking the feminine form of -wen. See this web site on the name Cerridwen: http://www.medievalscotland.org/problem/names/ceridwen.shtml.

There is an older hypothesis by Ifor Williams about her name that was accepted by Robert Graves and some other scholars around the middle of the 20th century and that is that Cerridwen is derived from cyrrid (crooked, hooked, bent) + benyw (woman). Williams apparently felt that "Fair and Loved" was not suitable for her personality and sought another explanation for the name.

According to Rachel Bromwich's entry on Cerridwen in her excellent work on Trioedd Ynys Prydein, the forms of the name found in Medieval and early modern literature are: Kerritwen, Kyrridven, Kerituen (in its apirate mutated form, Cherituen), Kerrituen, Kyrriduen, kyrrituen. You will notice that all of them end in "-en." The "K" became standardized as "C" in modern Welsh.

As for -ddion denoting the feminine, I can find in my Welsh dictionary lots of examples of masculine words that end in -ddion. According to Gareth King, nouns ending in "-ydd" are often made plural by adding "-ion" and nouns that end in "-ydd" are usually "masculine by form." Moreover, in King's list of words that are feminine by form, "-ddion" does not appear, although nouns ending in "-en", "-es," "-as," "-aeth" and "-fa" are usually (but not always) feminine. This is also in accord with my materials for a Medieval Welsh course I was working through at one time. King also says that there may be regional/local variations on the gendering of words in Welsh, so perhaps that is the case for the example you cite.

Teleri