Diagnosis...Psychic Attack, Mental Illness, Bad Dream or Shamanistic Ordeal?

[Pele_Oak]

I was talking to a friend about how some things are sort of subjective and that how one precieves things makes a difference. So I thought it would be interesting to run this hypothetical case.

A women is sleeping and while she is asleep she has a vivid dream/experience/vision. In the dream she forcably abducted, taken to a cave were the abducter violates her, tortures her and finally the abducter sleeps. She than tries to sneak out of the cave only to discoveer that the abducter is now an animal and the cave intrance is blocked by another such creature who tells her she is one of them now...she wakes up, friegtened, disturbed ect.

What happened?

Was it a Psychic Attack?

Is she a bit mentally off?

Was it just a bad dream?

Was she just initiated into a shamanist pathway by the spirits themselves?

How would you answer, why and what would you do?

Remeberthis hypothetical no right or wrong answers.

Pele

[Amethyst Rose]

Maybe I'm being boring for thinking that it's just a bad dream.... but I choose to be logical in this situation. I think the majority of the time dreams are just dreams.... and it's up to the individual to decide if they held anything more for them.

[Happydog]

Sounds like a typical bad dream to me. I don't think it would be a psychic attack, but more of a stomach attack -- sounds like she shouldn't have eaten that chili dog before she went to bed.

Really seriously though, a psychic attack is very different from what you described, and fortunately very rare. I don't know about the "shamanic initiation" thing - from what I've read that doesn't seem to be the way they work, but I don't deal much with shamanic stuff, so maybe else can fill in the spaces here?

[Alex]

I'm going with the Shamanist view, although it could be just a bad dream.

Or it could be a combination...

It could be, theoretically, a psychic attack which manifests as a bad dream, and is an initiatory ordeal into a nefarious "left hand path" shamanic order.

Please don't take this as authoritative, though, I am no expert on shamanic voyages.

B*B*

ALex

[Semele]

I'd say definate mental illness.....only because you get cool drugs when your crazy!!! J/K....I'd honestly tend to go with bad dream!!!

[stormyray]

I have to say bad dream but could also be somthing of her past life sneeking throught and her sub-con. turned it around on her.

[Sequoia]

I would have to go with bad dream. Although it might be the shamanistic thing (I don't know anything about shamanism), or MAYBE an attack, it's really hard to tell from the story. It's something that you just know and feel, and since we don't have the woman's opinion, it's hard to judge.

Personally I've had the kind of attack dreams before, and that sounds a bit different than what my experience was. Like I said before, these things are REALLY hard to judge, it would most likely be up to the woman herself, because also she would know what dreams were normal for her and what dreams weren't. Does she have nightmares like this often? Does she tend to dream very vividly? Does she walk the plains while she sleeps by accident? There's a lot of factors to be considered.

[marevard]

Personally, I say bad dream. As for the shamanism, from what I have read, spirit guilds are usually 'good'(the best way to put it), and one goes and looks for them. Their are some people, who the spirits seek out, and if this is the case, it would be the negative side found her, or an omen. But this falls upon dream interpting. One can also say that she is choosing a path -good side, bad side deal and there is a problem.

[Rævyn Cigány]

Yep I agree with you all...it was just a bad dream...

BB

Rae )0(

[Danustouch]

I believe it was a bad dream, as well. The important thing, I would say, to figure out here, is not what kind of experience it was, but what are the symbols in it. Our dreams are full of symbols for our subconcious. When we unlock what those symbols mean, either through a book of dream interpretation, or simply figuring out for OURSELVES what they could mean...dreams seem to be much less frightening.

One dream that I had, as an example. I dreampt that I was in a house with three girls, one blonde, one redhead, and one dark haired (looked kinda like faruzah balk)...anyway...the dark haired girl was really mean. The redhead was just...kinda silly..and the blonde was a really nice girl, who had a small child. ANYWAY..for some reason..they were trying to hide me from something. But the Dark haired girl decided she didn't want to hide me anymore, and placed a phonecall to the person I was hiding from. The Blonde then, took my hand and led me down into a cellar, to hide me better. In the cellar, there was a spare bedroom. I sat down on the bed, and discovered the bed was COVERED in blood...but for some reason..it only made me mildly uncomfortable. Anyway..I soon found out who I was hiding from in the dream. It was my ex-boyfriend. He came and got me, and all of a sudden, we were riding in his van, and it was snowing out. We talked, and nothing scary happened. THen I woke up.

I took out my dream interpretation book, and looked up redheads, dark haired, and blonde women. I don't remember what they meant...but I think I came away with a feeling that the personal attributes of all these women in my dream was one facet of myself. Then..I looked up basement. It said that basement is a "Safe Place". It means going into someplace where you feel safe. The blonde, the mother figure, took me there...so that makes sense. I looked up the meaning of Blood..and it said that blood represents deep mental and emotional pain to the subconcious. I had SO recently broken up with the ex in my dream, and was having a GREAT deal of pain over it. Then ..he showed up in the dream, and we drove in the snow. Well..journeys of any sort, represent an emotional journey, or process you are going through, and snow represents purification, rest...etc. So the WHOLE dream, was really just my subconcious way of working out the deep emotional pain I was going through as a result of the relationship coming to an end.

Have I had psychic visions in dreams..Yes. But usually, in that case, the symbols are NOT that obscure. They are Blatant. I saw a person, in my dream, shooting heroin. The next day, I found out this person WAS a heroin addict. So..usually, the symbols are much more blatant and easy to understand.

Shamanic experiences in dreams? Well..usually a shamanic experience, from what I know, is done after a period of preparation. Either fasting, meditating, ceremony, hallucinegenic drugs..etc..etc..there is usually SOME sort of preparation for these types of events.

This is why I think that what the person in your hypothetical situation has experienced is simply a dream. It is probably her task to interpret the symbols of that dream, to find out what's going on in her emotions.

[Pele_Oak]

Shamanistic initiations by spirits are not historically fluffy...this is a modern new age perception.

They usually involve sexual attacks and dismemberment or torture.

Psychic Attack Angle: In my experience many people I have chatted with over the years relate that this sort experience as an attack, from their point of view. While listeners think bad dream/psychic hypochondriac

Now the question is how would one go about determining the difference of the four choices,

Also I like the suggestion of past life experience, that to would have to be examined as well.

Aren't all 5 possibilities possible?

If all 5 conclusions are possible...who do we rule out the choices to make the diagnosis?

What kind of questions should we ask?

Just Some Thoughts.

Pele

[Shy Hawk]

Probably a bad dream.....granted, it could have deep symbolic meaning. Or else someone was trying to tell her something, again symbolically.

[slvr_phoenix]

Gee. It's an awfully tough poll to answer. I don't think I could even begin to propose an answer I felt comfortable with, without first getting several other details from her and hearing her talk about it. Since it's hypothetical, that is of course impossible. So really, it could go any way.

I've experienced psychic attacks in the form of dreams. One was so horribly botched that it left me laughing when I woke up. Heh heh. But others have been more successful. Luckily for me though I'm made of sterner stuff than people think. Heh heh. But what was described sounds a lot like one or two cases of psychic attack that have been waged on me.

It also could just be a bad dream. Such is the stuff dreams are made of. :)

Or it could be a mental illness. The subconscious can be a sick and twisted bugger. Heh heh.

I'm not too solid on shamanism, but I suppose if a group of mean-spirited shaman got together to wreak some havoc, it'd probably be something along those lines? **L** Not that I'd expect any to do such a thing, but it at least doesn't sound impossible to me.

Also, having dealt with pesky spirits in the past, I'd say it's possible that a big nasty spirit just felt like 'tainting' her. Bend her to it's will and have something to feed off of for the rest of her life. Sounds like something some spirits that I've known would do if given the chance.

Ultimately, I believe the answer is dust in the wind. He he he. :) It can go any way, and even possibly more ways than one. (And appearantly, so can she. Heh heh. Just kidding.)

[Sighing_Softly]

Id say its a bad dream, iv had a few instances taht iv thought have been an attack from a spirit while not in my body (at sleep) that have just been bad dreams (thats what me guide says :))

[Lilu]

I would go with Danustouch's approach.

While a dream can seem really scary at the time, it may represent something considerably different. I'd take a look at what these actions represent to her (taking into account fears, experiences and such) and see how they all tie in together. There may be a message.

And there are instances where some women, though they would never want it to happen in real life, do fantasize about being taken by force, perhaps there is an element of excitement in that action that they are dreaming about (like I said, it's all subjective). And maybe they see it as initiation into something (the cave symbolising the womb and rebirth?) or maybe they see it as something that needs to be hidden and not mentioned?

*shrug* Unless you actually sit down with the person who had the dream and go through the symbolism there is no one answer.

Lilu

[Myst]

Originally posted by Pele_Oak
Shamanistic initiations by spirits are not historically fluffy...this is a modern new age perception.

They usually involve sexual attacks and dismemberment or torture.

What spirits are you mucking about with? None of the people I know have had initiations involving any of that - the worst was an initiation wherein my friend met various spirits of our ancestors and learned from them and saw visions. I'm not saying that these initiations should be easy (hers wasn't) but if you have to get raped or tortured by spirits I wonder why you think you need spirits like that at all?

I have to agree with the others - most likely this was a bad dream. It may have deeper symbolic meaning that should be explored. Possibly it was a warning from her higher self or other spirits (ie. guardian angel, ancestral spirits, etc.) too, but one shouldn't jump to that conclusion... I've had a few really nasty dreams that meant nothing and a few that were warnings, it's hard to tell without knowing the rest of the story.

[Swanspirit]

Merry Merry,
Carl Jung used the term "great dream" to describe a dream which could be a type of initiatory experience his own first GREAT DREAM
Jung's first great dream, at age three or four,had many of the symbols of the journey of his entire life :the storm lantern (the guiding light in the psyche), the physician, mirror-symmetry and the polarity of the psyche,
the journey to the beyond (experiencing the unconscious), the Anthropos, the mandala, coincidentia oppositorum (identification of
opposites), man's morning knowledge and evening knowledge, Mercurius, the philosopher's stone, breakthrough to the unus mundus (unity of the world), individual and society, and le cri de Merlin (the cry of Merlin, the spirit in the stone).
That is what a GREAT DREAM consists of ;and some times they can be traumatic in nature.
Sex doesnt always represent "SEX" in a dream, can be penetration to the inner most self, or in the case of a man his animus or the female part of his soul. Can be the intimate connection with the universe. The symbols can be interpreted on a personal basis or on an archtyepal basis, and the journey can be on many levels. Most dreams are on all levels at once; even direct prophetic ones, have their everyday mundane level. Animals in dreams can represent shamanistic knowledge, and /or they can represent getting in touch with our primitive selves and throwing off the constraints of a repressive upbringing or culturalisation. By remaining in the "cave" I would venture that her journey is still is in the embryonic stages.
As an example of an animus dream ... for women Jung used the following example.
A woman had a dream where a man tried to kill her with a knife, and at first she was in terror, but after getting some analysis, she returned to the dreamand the next time the man tried to kill her ..... she befriended him in the dream, and the knife turned into an artists brush, and she bgan using it to paint.
Her negative animus became positive and useful, by helping her bring out her creativity, once she was able to get past her fears, and in real life she was able to begin to paint and create.
Psychic attacks, IMHO are not worth the paper they are printed on...its much more productive and healthy to look inward and find meaning for what you are dreaming, after all it comes from your subconscious.
Love and Light
Swannie