Wiccan discrimination on ebay!

[kimohnodragon]

Well met - I am a Somerset Hedgewitch and not used to groups! (Hedgewitches arn't!)
So, why did I join this... a coven?
Because I'm angry, I'm upset, I want to lash-out and call upon powers beyond the moon and I know that's not right!
Why am I angry?

AUCTION TERMS:~Please read before bidding~ Due to the religious/Christian nature of the items I sell, I will cancel bids on anyone with occult, profane, New Age, pro-abortion, or anti-Catholic user id's, buying or selling histories. This includes but is not limited to items with the following descriptions or content: Wicca, Satanic, Druid, Witchcraft, Pagan, Pornography, Profanity, etc. ~By bidding on my auction you are agreeing to these terms.~

I found this on ebay - the seller is - scottish***rose

Distasteful? Bigotted? > well, maybe just a little! - I don't even want to buy one of their rotton catholic medals but if I did then just because I'm wiccan does that mean I should be allowed to?

This is wrong!
Kim

[Phoenix Blue]

No it isn't! She has every right to determine with whom she will do business. Just find another seller!

[Shanti]

Discrimination is everywhere. Thats one seller. I sure would'nt do business with them. Now if e-bay did that,,then hole new ball game. Ebay sellers do have a lot of pagan related merchandise on the site. I have done very much business on e-bay, both selling and buying and I never ran into a prob.
If the seller wants to loose business thats their prob.
Goes to show the mentality of that seller.

[WtchyChick13]

I agree with PB--find another seller. I've often gone to other sellers because of something written in their auction that I may not agree with.

And as someone who has taught classes on eBay selling, let me just say this...

If you have a problem with this seller's ideals or what they have posted in their auction, you can report them to eBay and they will take care of it.

[WtchyChick13]

Let me just add....eBay has many sections for Pagan items. Both in "Collectibles" and in everything else>metaphysical.

[Isil Darkmoon]

You've taught classes in ebay selling? *makes a note to sign up for the next one* I do miserabley there... lose more in listing fees than I make. (I only have sold pagan items, so the market is... somewhat limited)

[Laisrean]

You should check Ebay's rules/policies on discrimination. If what she/he did violates the rules then you can report them to Ebay.

[WtchyChick13]

You've taught classes in ebay selling? *makes a note to sign up for the next one* I do miserabley there... lose more in listing fees than I make. (I only have sold pagan items, so the market is... somewhat limited)


I do it for Fortune 500 companies, but I've shared some 'secrets' in marketplace...I'll see if I can find the link. (I think it's in one of the stuck threads.) :D

[Lunacie]

I have seen the shoe on the other foot with this issue, when Pagans were complaining about people who know nothing at all about Pagan religions wearing Pagan symbols. I can certainly understand why the seller would rather sell Catholic medallions only to people who respect what they stand for.

[SilverMaiden]

In a free world it's to be expected. I myself have similar criteria in my life. Although not for goods that I sell but some people do. Not everyone is going like me and my kind and I don't always like their kind either. It's fair in my mind. The road is wide enough and the world is big enough.

Let them sell among who they choose. They will either make what they want or they won't. Their customers will be those like themselves or they will have no customers. You don't have to purchase. That's your freedom of choice.

I myself will not date men who have a monothesist belief system. I don't want to deal with the hassles nor the issues. I've done it in the past. I don't want it in my present nor my future. :D I'm practicing discrimination and I'm also balancing my stress level. Life it too short to constantly deal with high stress in one's own home. LOL! Let alone shopping.

[Isil Darkmoon]

I do it for Fortune 500 companies, but I've shared some 'secrets' in marketplace...I'll see if I can find the link. (I think it's in one of the stuck threads.) :D

*whistles* WOW. That's impressive.

(I can't wait for the MW auctions... no listing fees... pagan audience... *drool*)

[Laisrean]

In a free world it's to be expected.

That it is, but Ebay isn't a free world. It is a site and it may have it's own rules and stuff... :)

[kimohnodragon]

Ah! now this is interesting!! - so non of you mind being grouped into wican, satanic, pornographic... maybe it all fits together but not for me! -- just go find another buyer! LOL - thats not what this is all about! - maybe it's because I come from a different culture or something! -- I thought when I came to America that your constitution ment something! - Is it okay for someone to so blatently discriminate against anyone? and much less than against a far older religion than Catholosism?

Now - is this post about ebay or about something a little larger? - I wonder
Kimohnodragon

[Aidron]

Ah! now this is interesting!! - so non of you mind being grouped into wican, satanic, pornographic... maybe it all fits together but not for me! -- just go find another buyer! LOL - thats not what this is all about! - maybe it's because I come from a different culture or something! -- I thought when I came to America that your constitution ment something! - Is it okay for someone to so blatently discriminate against anyone? and much less than against a far older religion than Catholosism?

Now - is this post about ebay or about something a little larger? - I wonder
Kimohnodragon



She has every right to sell to whom she wishes. It is not about discrimination, it is about people flipping out over anything and claiming to be persecuted. If you can't agree to her terms, find another seller.

They are her items and she has the right to do with them what she wishes. :rolleyes:

[Lunacie]

Because this IS a free country people are allowed to be stupid or ignorant or biased. Discrimination can be a good thing as some of those who have responded here have tried to point out. As in "Choosy mothers choose Jif", that's a form of discrimination.

dis·crim·i·na·tion The act of discriminating.

The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination.
edited for typo

[kimohnodragon]

Okay I'll go find another seller! - Oh! wait a minute I didn't actually want to buy one of their catholic relics in the first place... but of course if any of you have read their 'me page' you would have read that the reason they discriminate against wiccan is because we only buy them to defile the sancity of the catholic church - hey! you are all so right! who am I to take on the pope?
Kimohnodragon

[Jenne]

Ooh, please do, Wtchy...I need some advice. I'm skeered to start, but I have a whole pile of items ready for ebay...just haven't taken that leap yet (something wrong with me there, lol).

So I'd love to see anything you might have to say! :)

[kimohnodragon]

Opps! missed a 't'!! blush!!

[Isil Darkmoon]

So... er... I gotta ask the obvious question... if you weren't wanting to buy any of their stuff, and all they sell is relics... WHY were you scanning their auctions/on their "about me" page?

[kimohnodragon]

Isil - I wans't - it wasa link from ebay sellers forum that said - hey go check this out! -- Its like you won't belive what the crazy's are up to at the zoo today!
But then... I just happen to be a witch so... I thought maybe I could do soething good! -

Y'know - I think I'm just going to go look for a nice hedge somewhere instead!
Kim

[Isil Darkmoon]

I personally don't think it's good BUSINESS, not a way to win friends... no. Her tone was a bit off-putting. Unfortunately, though, it's not illegal in any way... just kind of rude/overly exclusive.

[pawnman]

I'm thinking, "so what?" So they put some stuff up on their "about me" page. They obviously think that will attract their clientele. We aren't it. So what's the problem?

As for the constitution, that only says the GOVERNMENT can't discriminate against anyone. Private citizens and organizations are free to discriminate as they please.

[Aidron]

Y'know - I think I'm just going to go look for a nice hedge somewhere instead!
Kim


Perhaps you should.

And spare me the sarcasm about who are you to argue with the pope. She is one individual and the constitution states nothing about discrimination on that level, as has already been stated. I still cannot fathom why you would be annoyed over being excluded out of an auction that you do not even want to participate in. That's like being peeved that you cannot join a cheerleading squad when you despise cheerleaders, hate your school, and posess no school spirit. :rolleyes:

[Flar's Freyja]

Discrimination is everywhere. Thats one seller. I sure would'nt do business with them. Now if e-bay did that,,then hole new ball game. Ebay sellers do have a lot of pagan related merchandise on the site. I have done very much business on e-bay, both selling and buying and I never ran into a prob.
If the seller wants to loose business thats their prob.
Goes to show the mentality of that seller.

Exactly, and I also agree with PB that they have the right to choose who they will and won't sell to.

It's another one of those areas, though, where it may be unlikely that a pagan seller would do that. At least, that's the ideal since we are to respect all paths.

[WtchyChick13]

Ooh, please do, Wtchy...I need some advice. I'm skeered to start, but I have a whole pile of items ready for ebay...just haven't taken that leap yet (something wrong with me there, lol).

So I'd love to see anything you might have to say! :)

:hugz:

I can't find the link. :dis:

I know I put some stuff up here somewhere but right now I can't seem to find it. When I get a chance, I'll grab my 'class notes' and throw a few things up here for y'all. :)

Oh and Isil--I agree--I can't wait for the MW auctions either! :D


(Um, MOL! That's your cue dude.) :lol:

[SilverMaiden]

In a private business agreement discrimination is allowed by law to certain degree. Hence things like the Boy Scouts, privately held companies, private sellers, private buyers and certain golf club societies can pick and choose whom they do business with and hire on what grounds. As long as it is not deceptive and stated up front. They can not get special previledges nor standing from government nor publically owned businesses.

That's where the consumer can have a lot of influence if said organization or private business wants to make a profit or go belly up.
You do have the freedom to make your opinion known as long as it is not threatening. You do have the freedom to tell everyone around you about your experience.

In a public business or government involved business it is not acceptable and can be contested and reported. Much depends on the standing of the "seller" and their agreements.

Do all americans uphold the constitution for freedom for all? The answer is no.
Should they? The answer is yes. But that is my personal opinion not all americans believe as I do.
Are they required to? No because the government can not dictate into certain personal arenas.
Does everyone have the right to have their grievance heard by the court of law? Yes.

[Isil Darkmoon]

:hugz:

I can't find the link. :dis:

I know I put some stuff up here somewhere but right now I can't seem to find it. When I get a chance, I'll grab my 'class notes' and throw a few things up here for y'all. :)

Oh and Isil--I agree--I can't wait for the MW auctions either! :D


(Um, MOL! That's your cue dude.) :lol:

Whoo! You rock, dear :) I'd love a peek at those notes when it's convenient for ya!

[WtchyChick13]

:thumbsup:

[lunachic420]

Ah! now this is interesting!! - so non of you mind being grouped into wican, satanic, pornographic... maybe it all fits together but not for me! -- just go find another buyer! LOL - thats not what this is all about! - maybe it's because I come from a different culture or something! -- I thought when I came to America that your constitution ment something! - Is it okay for someone to so blatently discriminate against anyone? and much less than against a far older religion than Catholosism?

Now - is this post about ebay or about something a little larger? - I wonder
Kimohnodragon



It's not a matter of any of us approving of this person's close-minded attitudes, it's us supporting their right to their religious freedom and their opinions...and here in the U.S. your dollar is your vote...so not doing business with that person is effective. But you shouldn't let their petty attitudes make you so upset...If ya really wanna be discordia...make a christian profile, buy stuff and then proceed to profane it and send it back! LoL! Seriously, that person is winning by devouring so much of your energy.
Let it go...find a more productive way to free some minds...
Blessed be and Namaste!

[Laisrean]

Well, since no one else thought to look up Ebay's policy towards discrimination I did. http://pages.ebay.com/help/welcome/group-restricted-activities.html

As you can see, discrimination based on religion, and alot of other things, is prohibited.

[Aidron]

Well, since no one else thought to look up Ebay's policy towards discrimination I did. http://pages.ebay.com/help/welcome/group-restricted-activities.html

As you can see, discrimination based on religion, and alot of other things, is prohibited.


Again, I do not see why it matters. If you do not want to buy that stuff due to the fact that you are Pagan, Wiccan, and so forth, why make a fuss? Let her keep her prejudices and stop fueling the fire.

[ArKane]

I'm going to have to disagree with PB here and say. Yes. That is discrimination. It doesn't matter WHAT faith you follow, you have the right to buy what you want. It may not be for you sepecifically, a gift for a friends etc..

BUT if the user chooses to do this then it is their choice but it shouldn't happen to anyone. NO one deserves it. Plus they are disobeying the rules set by the Ebay.com staff.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Perhaps you should.

And spare me the sarcasm about who are you to argue with the pope. She is one individual and the constitution states nothing about discrimination on that level, as has already been stated. I still cannot fathom why you would be annoyed over being excluded out of an auction that you do not even want to participate in. That's like being peeved that you cannot join a cheerleading squad when you despise cheerleaders, hate your school, and posess no school spirit. :rolleyes:


That was a really snide obnoxious post. They can be peeved and I don't blame them for feeling like they should go back to hiding. How easy do you think it is for someone to post something that bothers them and then get nothing but negitive responses to it? Is this what MW is coming to? I sure hope this is not a sign of how people think we should treat new people to MW. Yes their comment was a bit snide but yours is too and can start a cycle that just perpetuates. :(

Not to mention the discrimination is against the rules for ebay period and dot. As a nation we have fought against this type of discrimination before and in our political climate we should do something about it when we can. There was a time when people had signs in the windows "No blacks" and another with "No Irish" Do you think they started with a big bang? They crept up on people first one store then another and another. So yes people should stand up when they can and say this isn't right. It isn't just one person that is affected many are affected and most will just walk away from it. Personally I salute the ones that dont walk away when they see something wrong but try to fix it.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Again, I do not see why it matters. If you do not want to buy that stuff due to the fact that you are Pagan, Wiccan, and so forth, why make a fuss? Let her keep her prejudices and stop fueling the fire.


Reporting them to Ebay wouldn't be fueling the fire as the reports don't need names. It matters because like an illness it spreads. Personally I like to see it in as few places as possible.

[Phoenix Blue]

Not to mention the discrimination is against the rules for ebay period and dot.
:) That does sort of change the situation. If EBay has rules against discrimination, then reporting the discrimination to EBay sounds like the best and most correct course of action. I was working under the mistaken assumption that they had no such policy.

[ArKane]

Not to mention the discrimination is against the rules for ebay period and dot.

Discrimination has been made illegal in Australia, there are heavy fines for those that discriminate againest anyone.

Which is good. What about everywhere else?

[WandererInGray]

The only thing the US Constitution has to do with the economy is granting Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, and the power to levy taxes on said commerce.

We used to have a sign over our counter top.... "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."....and you know what? We did. When people got stupid during the Christmastime rush we'd point them to the door.

No one is forcing anyone to buy things off Ebay...and honestly why Pagans would want to buy Catholic medals is beyond me. People are entitled to their opinions, no matter how stupid they might be.

As far as Ebay is concerned. The seller has every right to terminate the sale and/or not sell to whom ever they chose. Good business practice? *shrugs* Nope. Discrimination? *shrugs* I suppose, though if we're going that route when someone doesn't get something they want they can call it discrimination.

Small business owners (like those on Ebay) have the right and priviledge to set their own policies. If I put that much of my time, effort, and money into a business (online or not) I wouldn't want someone else trying to tell me how to run it.

[ArKane]

We used to have a sign over our counter top.... "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."....and you know what? We did. When people got stupid during the Christmastime rush we'd point them to the door.

That could work. It would certainly rid the stores of idiots dueing the christmas rush and tings. As long as it has been used to kick rawdy people out only and not abused and used to kick anyone out people dislike. Thats unfair. Their actions would have to have a justifiable answer.

[DragonsChest]

:hugz:

I can't find the link. :dis:

I know I put some stuff up here somewhere but right now I can't seem to find it. When I get a chance, I'll grab my 'class notes' and throw a few things up here for y'all. :)

Oh and Isil--I agree--I can't wait for the MW auctions either! :D


(Um, MOL! That's your cue dude.) :lol:

Yes, please! Include me in your class! I have had zero sales on ebay, no bids, no nibbles, nada. I also don't see how I can compete with the mass produced, made in china, resin molded, dragon statues offered at $2.00 and up. I could really use your expertise. Thanks!!! :colorful:

edit: But how does the seller know what you will eventually end up doing with the product bought from their site? What if my user name were Little Angel and I went there and bought a catholic medal from them? How would they know what I really intend to do with it after I get it? This I don't understand.

[Jenett]

One other thing to think about:

Some religions (mostly the Afro-Carribean syncretic ones like voudon, Santeria, etc.) *do* use Christian iconography in their religious or spiritual practices. Some Christians feel uncomfortable with selling or providing items for that use, and I think that any response that ignores that discomfort isn't going to get you very far.

However, I also think that it's important that people respect the rules of the place they're selling - if eBay has rules about not discriminating on the basis of religion, then sure, bring it to their attention.

If someone feels strongly about only selling some kinds of religious items to people they approve of, it's easy enough to set up a webpage (and heck, link it from eBay auctions for stuff that's not so sensitive) and sell it that way. Or place ads in appropriate places (Christian newspapers, websites, stores, etc.) for that community.

[Tzaolunyin]

We used to have a sign over our counter top.... "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."....
I've often wondered about those signs. Can they be used to refuse service to racial minorities? I know that where I live, there are many businesses that would like to do just such a thing (a popular Bar-B-Que place comes to mind), but I was under the impression that they couldn't do that? Is race an exception to the statement on the sign? I'm not familiar with the law as it applies to public establishments, I'm afraid..........

[Laisrean]

The only thing the US Constitution has to do with the economy is granting Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, and the power to levy taxes on said commerce.

We used to have a sign over our counter top.... "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."....and you know what? We did. When people got stupid during the Christmastime rush we'd point them to the door.

No one is forcing anyone to buy things off Ebay...and honestly why Pagans would want to buy Catholic medals is beyond me. People are entitled to their opinions, no matter how stupid they might be.

As far as Ebay is concerned. The seller has every right to terminate the sale and/or not sell to whom ever they chose. Good business practice? *shrugs* Nope. Discrimination? *shrugs* I suppose, though if we're going that route when someone doesn't get something they want they can call it discrimination.

Small business owners (like those on Ebay) have the right and priviledge to set their own policies. If I put that much of my time, effort, and money into a business (online or not) I wouldn't want someone else trying to tell me how to run it.

Yes, but Ebay is not the government. They chose to set their own policy AGAINST discrimination. They chose to waive their right to refuse service to anyone.

[Autumn]

It all seems rather foolish to me...but if this seller wishes to turn away paying customers she can.

[FaerieGothMommy]

It is true - it is her auction & as long as she states it in her description, she can turn away customers....

Don't stress about it - not everyone agrees or respects certain religions, thats life! There are plenty more ebayers to buy from on ebay who'd be happy to sell to a wiccan/pagan.

[MerrisHawk]

It's a little sad to see something like this come up. I really hope this doesn't cause any more hurt feelings or anger here. I like this place.

[Laisrean]

It is true - it is her auction & as long as she states it in her description, she can turn away customers....

Don't stress about it - not everyone agrees or respects certain religions, thats life! There are plenty more ebayers to buy from on ebay who'd be happy to sell to a wiccan/pagan.

It's her auction, but the auction is hosted by eBay, and as such she is bound by eBay's rules, which forbids discrimination.

[Lunacie]

It's a little sad to see something like this come up. I really hope this doesn't cause any more hurt feelings or anger here. I like this place.
Hurt feelings and anger are a part of being human. They are generally handled very well on this site. **shrug** There isn't much that can be done when some people get upset because others don't agree with them. I have a right to my opinion, even if I'm the only one in the world who holds it, as long as I don't use it to browbeat other posters here. I'm (usually) mature enough to accept it when others don't agree with my opinion. Sometimes I've even read what they've written and in thinking it over I've changed my opinion.

[WandererInGray]

It's her auction, but the auction is hosted by eBay, and as such she is bound by eBay's rules, which forbids discrimination.
Can I see a link to that policy? *puzzled shrug* I searched the site but didn't see anything pertaining to that. The only thing I saw was that a seller couldn't cancel a sale after the bidding was done.

The US government, actually, can't discriminate. Personal businesses have every right to, it's just not considered socially acceptable.

Here's a riddle for you....you're a Pagan shopkeeper, a guy comes in and tells you that he wants to buy all the books in your store. He also tells you the reason is he's a born-again Christian and will burn all the books that he buys. Do you sell them? Or tell him to get out? And is that "discrimination"?

[WtchyChick13]

I'm going to jump out of this thread because I'm worried about where it is headed, but I did want to address something said by Wanderer:


No one is forcing anyone to buy things off Ebay...and honestly why Pagans would want to buy Catholic medals is beyond me.

I know what you meant by that (believe me) but also think about this...I will buy those things as gifts for friends who are religious and I know a few friends who are Pagan who use some medals to wear or whatever because of where they live--they just give them other meanings.

But I understood what you were saying. :lol:

With that, I'm outta this thread. :wave:

[Kadynas]

Here's a riddle for you....you're a Pagan shopkeeper, a guy comes in and tells you that he wants to buy all the books in your store. He also tells you the reason is he's a born-again Christian and will burn all the books that he buys. Do you sell them? Or tell him to get out? And is that "discrimination"?

Oooo...good question! :D I agree with you here, but if EBay really does have a policy against it, she should sell her wares elsewhere. She's totally justified in not wanting to sell them to people whom she feels will "misuse" or "disresepct" them, but to do it on a public forum that prohibits discrimination isn't the best way to go. :)

[Lunacie]

I know what you meant by that (believe me) but also think about this...I will buy those things as gifts for friends who are religious and I know a few friends who are Pagan who use some medals to wear or whatever because of where they live--they just give them other meanings.

But I understood what you were saying. :lol:

With that, I'm outta this thread. :wave:
I thought that was a very good point, and the best person to answer it would be the person who listed the auction on ebay with those limitations. But I couldn't find that auction or that seller.

[Tzaolunyin]

He also tells you the reason is he's a born-again Christian and will burn all the books that he buys. Do you sell them?

Considering he's paying more for the books than I did, I can buy new ones, and support the economy, and turn a tidy profit! So heck yes I'm selling them! :D

[Azure]

So what if someone has a user name that happens ot sound like it has references to something she disapproves of, but is in fact a serious Christian? Just a thought.

It seems to me that people like that are trying way too hard to broadcast their "disapproval" and a holier than thou moral tone. It's like the people with all their religion and politics on their bumper stickers - real convictions are generally too complex for sound bites or stickers - or eBay profiles.

She makes her point - she doesn't like anybody who doesn't agree with her and won't sell to them - but there really isn't any way she can control the actual situation. Anyone with a non-religious eBay nickname can buy from her, and she doesn't have anything to do with what happens once she puts it in the mail.

As for the fundamentalist buying out a book store. By wll means, let him do so. Were it me, I'd take the money he spent, replenish my stock, and go on my merry way. People like that rarely work from a rational perspective.

[WandererInGray]

I really should have phrased that question differently. *laughs and makes face*

My point was, would we be squawking about discrimination if a Pagan had refused to sell to Christians?

[Azure]

well, I probalby would. But I see your point. . . Somehow it's always the other side who is credited with "discrimination."

[FaerieGothMommy]

Again, it's not just this one person on ebay who MAY not agree with certain religions as she is christian or whatever... there are hundreds of people who do not agree with our religion - just like i bet there are people here who do not agree with other religions....

It's just an auction - and no offence at all to anyone here, but i would just simply find another seller instead of getting hurt about it.

I'm one that gets hurt easy & can't let things drop too easily - so sounds funny me saying this!
But, you'll never get a world full of people who are open to all beliefs (what ever that ladies excuse is for not selling to certain buyers) ... so just go find another seller... simple!

[Phoenix Blue]

I really should have phrased that question differently. *laughs and makes face*

My point was, would we be squawking about discrimination if a Pagan had refused to sell to Christians?
**Smiles** You know I would be love, but only in the same context. Hypocrisy is a color unto itself, and religion only shades it.

[pawnman]

Here's a riddle for you....you're a Pagan shopkeeper, a guy comes in and tells you that he wants to buy all the books in your store. He also tells you the reason is he's a born-again Christian and will burn all the books that he buys. Do you sell them? Or tell him to get out? And is that "discrimination"?

I was thinking at work, "I'm going to post a poll based on whether you would sell all your pagan stuff to a born-again christian if he told you he was going to burn it?" But you beat me to it.

Yep, I'd sell him every last thing in the shop, and help him load his car. He has just paid all my bills for several months, and since I'll have to restock, he's supporting my suppliers as well. Do I care what he does with the stuff after it leaves my premises? Not really. There may be a few things I hold back (perhaps handmade staves and wands I wouldn't want to see destroyed, or artwork), but it would be out of respect for the artisan who created it, not because it is specifically "pagan". Nothing starts with intrinsic spiritual value, it gains that value from your dedication and use of it. I could use a pen for a wand and get along fine.

So, long story short, I'd sell him everything, and take a week off. Then I'd restock the place and start over. With any luck, he's rich and he'll come back a second time.

[Sequoia]

You know what. . . those medals of hers probably mean something very sacred to her. She wants to make sure she's selling them to others who will find them just as sacred- and let's face it. There are some punks who buy stuff like that just to defile them, in the name of 'paganism' or 'wicca' or 'witchcraft'. I think everyone's met at least one of those kids.

Besides. Why do you care, if you don't want to buy them anyway? It's like you're just looking for something to feel descriminated against about. If a Satanist walked into a church (I mean, the kind that feel they worship satan) and started touching the sacred items, even just in the church's gift shop, I have the feeling it would really upset the parishers. They would probably ask him to leave. Just like if a pagan had a shop, or a chapel, and a fundie walked in and started playing with the sacred things, you'd probably ask him to leave.

Like how a white person would probably look a little silly at a voodoo convention; societ is divided amongst itself, and is for the most part happy with many of those distinctions. People hold them up, you know?

So if you don't want the pendant, why are you making a big stink about it? She reserves the right to sell to folks she thinks it will mean something to.

Relax, not everybody is out to get you.

[boerbabe]

ROFL! Now that's a good attitude to have!

I honestly think the seller who can't look at it like that has the problem- eBay takes enough in fees that you have to sell to make a buck or you're out of pocket for nothing.

If they want to descriminate against potential buyers, they are losing business and money. I don't descriminate overseas buyers from my items, and I don't say if you're not an approved PayPal shipping address I won't to ship to you. All I'm worried about is getting my money and them getting the item, whoever/whereever/whatever they are or want to be.

[Sequoia]

I was thinking at work, "I'm going to post a poll based on whether you would sell all your pagan stuff to a born-again christian if he told you he was going to burn it?" But you beat me to it.

Yep, I'd sell him every last thing in the shop, and help him load his car. He has just paid all my bills for several months, and since I'll have to restock, he's supporting my suppliers as well. Do I care what he does with the stuff after it leaves my premises? Not really. There may be a few things I hold back (perhaps handmade staves and wands I wouldn't want to see destroyed, or artwork), but it would be out of respect for the artisan who created it, not because it is specifically "pagan". Nothing starts with intrinsic spiritual value, it gains that value from your dedication and use of it. I could use a pen for a wand and get along fine.

So, long story short, I'd sell him everything, and take a week off. Then I'd restock the place and start over. With any luck, he's rich and he'll come back a second time.

:D sweet

[Mithrea]

I just wanted to say welcome to MW Kim :welcome: since no one did.

[Sequoia]

By the way, I forgot to note: If anyone noticed, she wasn't just against pagans, satanists, or anything she felt was occult. She was also against pro-abortionists, people with profanity and/or pornography in their histories, etc.

It wasn't *just* religious, folks.

Though I'm wondering how you can tell someone's pro-abortion by what they buy on ebay :huh:

[boerbabe]

Good question.. and seriously, how would they know if you did buy porn stuff? 99% of those auctions are private.

[pawnman]

Though I'm wondering how you can tell someone's pro-abortion by what they buy on ebay

I'm guessing if your username is Abortion_chick it's pretty obvious.

[Calyx]

I'm guessing if your username is Abortion_chick it's pretty obvious.
:falloffch :fishsmack
Or,
AllChristiansMustDie! or some other rubbish!
Porn_Fiend probably wouldn't get sold to either!

[Lunacie]

Too bad I already have an ebay screen name or I'd sign up as "Hell's Handbasket". :T

[Tzaolunyin]

How about I_Buy_Crosses_and_Break_Them? Would he be sold to? :D

[charmedkisses1]

Sorry about that but it's her stuff and if she wants to lose money then shes a........ lol

[Laisrean]

Can I see a link to that policy? *puzzled shrug* I searched the site but didn't see anything pertaining to that. The only thing I saw was that a seller couldn't cancel a sale after the bidding was done.

The US government, actually, can't discriminate. Personal businesses have every right to, it's just not considered socially acceptable.

Here's a riddle for you....you're a Pagan shopkeeper, a guy comes in and tells you that he wants to buy all the books in your store. He also tells you the reason is he's a born-again Christian and will burn all the books that he buys. Do you sell them? Or tell him to get out? And is that "discrimination"?


I posted it earlier in this thread! Apparently everyone chose to ignore it...


Well, since no one else thought to look up Ebay's policy towards discrimination I did. http://pages.ebay.com/help/welcome/group-restricted-activities.html

[Azure]

There's also the possibility that a committed Pagan might want to buy a spiritual gift for a committed Catholic friend. . .

[DarkDancer]

She just shpuld have started on Christian Auctions in the first place... :smoke:

[FroggieThePunk]

It may be wrong, but you never did have to look at the item, nor do you even have to deal with that person. Unless they do you wrong personally, I say leave them be. For the most part they are just harmless, and do not know anything about us. That is why they act the way they do.

[WandererInGray]

I posted it earlier in this thread! Apparently everyone chose to ignore it...

Ummm. Nope, I just missed it. I'm human, it happens occasionally.

That's for the Ebay Groups (community) though, by my reading....not for sales of merchandise. :huh: I still can't find anything under the Seller rules that say expressly, one can't decide who they will/will not sell to. I'm not saying this is good business practice, mind you, just that it's not illegal.


Restricted Activities emphasis mine
The following types of postings and behaviors are prohibited within Groups on the eBay Site and may be grounds for a disciplinary response such as immediate post removal, warnings, Groups sanctions and/or suspension from Groups or the eBay Site. Other inappropriate postings and behaviors not listed below may also warrant a disciplinary response. eBay reserves the right to remove any post without warning or future notice.

In fact, right in the User Agreement (http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html), Section 3.5 clearly states: We do not control the information provided by other users that is made available through our system. You may find other user's information to be offensive, harmful, inaccurate, or deceptive.

Section 6.2(d) is the only thing that comes close. It states: [i]Your Information (or any items listed) and your activities on the Site shall not: violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation (including, but not limited to, those governing export control, consumer protection, unfair competition, antidiscrimination or false advertising).

Now given that the only *real* antidiscrimination laws in this country are in regards to governmental institutions or similar venues (ie. employment opportunities, public schools/colleges, housing, etc.) one can't really make the case for "discrimination" in the legal sense here.

*shrugs* But hey, that's just my opinion. Worth all the cyberspace it's printed on. :D

[Raihn]

Oi...

...They are Catholic items. The person selling them most likely does not want these items to be given to someone who does not understand their personal worth. Now, this is not to say that Pagans do not understand other religions...it's just to say that some Catholics are very protective of the objects of specific religious meaning.

This person is probably just not entirely open to the ideas of other faiths.

That, or she's just a tight-wad. *Shrugs*

[Abortion_Chick]

I feel discriminated against.

[Sequoia]

I feel discriminated against.

:falloffch

[Raihn]

I feel discriminated against.

:lol: Oh, it's a good world.

[I_Break_Crosses]

Help, help! I'm being repressed!

[Phoenix Blue]

Admin Mode

Raihn, Puma, creating duplicate user accounts for the express purpose of trolling a thread is disrespectful and dishonest. Both duplicate accounts have been banned.

I strongly advise you both against repeating this sort of behavior.

[Sequoia]

. . . o_o whoah, I was just playing. . . gosh, sorry. I honestly thought it would be taken as a joke. I won't do it again. :sniffsnif


:whatgives :blushake:



:imout:

[Raihn]

Admin Mode

Raihn, Puma, creating duplicate user accounts for the express purpose of trolling a thread is disrespectful and dishonest. Both duplicate accounts have been banned.

I strongly advise you both against repeating this sort of behavior.

...Jeeze...he's like Omni-freakin-potent. :) :hehehehe:

[pawnman]

..Jeeze...he's like Omni-freakin-potent.

That's what admins are for. :lol:

[cheddarsox]

I don't think the seller in question is losing sales over this practice. I say that because they have been up to it for a number of years, I came across them ages ago. I'm not defending them, but I can offer some info that might shed some understanding on the matter.

Like many pagan minded folk, Catholics believe in the ability of material objects to have power and to be able to transmit that power. This is a serious matter. The relics of saints are very powerful and sacred. Every church altar has such relics within it. They are venerated and protected from those who might use them disrespectfully. There has always been a fear in the Catholic church that relics or consecrated hosts would fall into mischievious hands and be used for ill purposes, the least of which would be to disrespect something that is sacred.

I have no idea why someone who is Catholic and believes this would market their sacred objects on e-bay, that makes no sense. but there it is. It is possible that they are using their "screening" techniques as a marketing tool. "oh look, all you Catholics out there, how holy and serious I am! Buy from me with confidence!" I don' t know their mind.

I think that if an item is truly believed to have power or sacred value, perhaps e-bay is not the wisest way to market it. After all, we all know how easy it is to set up accounts. Anyone can buy anything if they truly want to. That being said, the history of selling fake relics is the third oldest profession, I believe. And what better way to whip up interest than to tell the majority of the world "you can't have this!! it's special..."

[Lunacie]

I think that if an item is truly believed to have power or sacred value, perhaps e-bay is not the wisest way to market it. After all, we all know how easy it is to set up accounts. Anyone can buy anything if they truly want to. That being said, the history of selling fake relics is the third oldest profession, I believe. And what better way to whip up interest than to tell the majority of the world "you can't have this!! it's special..."

Ah, I hadn't thought of this angle. You might be on to something here.

[Antoninus]

You should check Ebay's rules/policies on discrimination. If what she/he did violates the rules then you can report them to Ebay.
Agreed

[Pesha]

A person can sell to whom they want to and I think personally it is rude of this seller, but........I would find someone else to buy from. This other one will eventually lose sales for their attitude.

BB
DS.

[Laisrean]

I thought I would bump this thread because it is happening again to Aine of the Fae. :whistle:

[pawnman]

Someone not selling things to Aine on Ebay?

Let me at 'em! :deviltail

[aluokaloo]

Well everyone is right, it sucks that people are like that, you can report it to e-bay if you find it offensive, and here in America private businesses and personal individuals and such can do more or less what they please. For example my ex and I were talking one day and there was a news report that the Klu Klux Klan was having some sort of parade. I was outraged, until he asked me why. He reminded that here in the good old U.S. of A-age people are allowed to believe what they like and that have every right to have a KKK parade as people have the right to have a Gay parade or black history month. I thought about it and realized how true that is. Its America everyone here disagrees on someone elses beliefs.

[silverphoenix]

Well met - I am a Somerset Hedgewitch and not used to groups! (Hedgewitches arn't!)
So, why did I join this... a coven?
Because I'm angry, I'm upset, I want to lash-out and call upon powers beyond the moon and I know that's not right!
Why am I angry?

Get used to the anger that you may get from time to time, when I was starting out in Wicca (and learned the crimes Christianity had done against out ancestors); I was furious and wanted to set it right. Now I have learnt to control my anger & angression...

[Tullip Troll]

I am not saying this is right...but you can't change a persons convictions. She obviously feels very strongly about her items going to "real" Christians. It's sad that her world is so small and that much of her time is spent worried about "evil".
Curse her with Love...perhaps it will help her open up and heal.

MheraPai..

.one of my biggest reasons for leaving the Christian faith was their intolerance...I know not all Christians are but there are enough

[IvyWitch]

There's nothing wrong with her not wanting her items to go to a place where she feels they will not be used properly. I have a stack of Christian books I'm trying to sell and no single Christian will buy them from me because they feel that they are better off with me. Christians who were once Pagan don't give away or sell thier old items - they destroy them most of the time because they don't feel that anyone should use them because they deem them dangerous.

That woman has every right to refuse to sell the item to a non-christian. You may not like it, and you can scream discrimination until your face turns blue, but what she's doing is not wrong.

[AterCorax]

when I was starting out in Wicca (and learned the crimes Christianity had done against out ancestors)

Umm, excuse me?

If you're talking about the burnings/hangings/etc. of supposed "witches," you really need a history lesson 'cause I doubt any of them were "witches" by any definition you can come up with.

If you mean the Christians against the pagans, both sides were equally barbaric.

-Ater

[WrathofCirce]

Seems to me that she is losing money by discriminating.

[Sleet]

I find it completely understandable that a devout Catholic will not want their religious items to go to a person who she thinks might use them improperly (by her definition), and many Christians of any denomination view occult practices as antithecal to their religion.

If something's important to you, you want it to go to a good home. A good Tarot reader wouldn't sell her deck to a Christian fundamentalist who she suspects is just looking for fuel for the big ol' Occult Material Bonfire. Ditto for any People path that uses tools for rituals, those things pick up importance and meaning, and handing them over to someone you think might profane that meaning somehow isn't something you should have to do.

Edit: I see this very same point had been made about eight hundred times before I got here, so I'll just slink away into the corner now. ;)

[pawnman]

I find it completely understandable that a devout Catholic will not want their religious items to go to a person who she thinks might use them improperly (by her definition), and many Christians of any denomination view occult practices as antithecal to their religion.

If something's important to you, you want it to go to a good home. A good Tarot reader wouldn't sell her deck to a Christian fundamentalist who she suspects is just looking for fuel for the big ol' Occult Material Bonfire. Ditto for any People path that uses tools for rituals, those things pick up importance and meaning, and handing them over to someone you think might profane that meaning somehow isn't something you should have to do.

Edit: I see this very same point had been made about eight hundred times before I got here, so I'll just slink away into the corner now. ;)

If I owned a Pagan store, I'd be more than happy to sell my stuff to a fundie christian. The fact that they are purchasing the stuff does more to advance my cause than what happens afterwards. They are helping me, helping my suppliers, and helping the national demand for these kinds of products.

[Shanti]

When it comes to anything e-bay they have their no discriminating rules so if your discriminated against, report the seller.

As for people that have businesses open to the public like to sell goods or service, I thought none can discriminate because there have been cases where a person or color sued a resteraunt for refusing service, and they have won. If you go to walmart and they refuse to let you in the store because of color or because your t-shirt says 'I'm pagan', I belive there would be a law suit!!!!!!!!!!

[Lunacie]

Don't a lot of businesses post a sign that says "We reserve the right to refuse service"? Basically I think that is what the ebay seller was doing. It's not like she didn't put her guidelines right there on her listing. Boy, this discrimination thing is pretty tricky if you're not a lawyer, eh?

[Shanti]

I just wonder if things on e-bay would change if sellers started saying 'white' only!!
Seems racial discrimination is taken very seriously and religious is not. I dont think any shop owner would have the guts to refuse service due to color. Thats just my observations and thoughts on the matter.

I personally check out sellers and I just buy from those I feel are ok. If their nasty like the sellers discussed here, I just pass them by.

I noticed that the seller that this thread first talked about, she mentions the satanist and wiccans and what not but she doesnt openly say the words jewish or muslium. Makes me wonder if she figures that it would cause e-bay to get tons of complaints that would reak havic for them and the seller. I could see the sellers e-mail!!
Its easier to pick on smaller sects. Not to many , I think, want to rock boats with anouther main stream sect.

Anyhow, would e-bay kick off a seller who says 'white' only? I bet they would, but christian only is ok.............huuummm.

[Pol]

Well, I'm not sure what you were expecting. If you hunt for people to be annoyed by you're going to find them.
Christianity is full of people who have no tolerence in the least for other religions. That's all well and good, it's their religion. It doesn't break any american rules.

Also, this is not an american site. I'm sure there are members here from your 'culture.'
Even still, the american constitution has no dealings with online cultures.
Furthermore, even in america, if someone doesn't want to sell to certain religions, they don't have to. There's nothing illegal about private service refusal.
You see town after town in rural america bigotted against pagans and witches of all types, just as they are against buddhists and muslims and most other religions. Just as you'll find places in the world where they hate Christians. It's a sad by-product of individuality.

[Pol]

Btw, that was in response to the first page. I didn't realise there were more pages :shhhh:

[Pol]

Discrimination has been made illegal in Australia, there are heavy fines for those that discriminate againest anyone.

Which is good. What about everywhere else?

I would almost agree with this post - however, who is going to say what's discrimination?
I don't feel it is the governments place to do that.

I'm a bit of an anarchist, though.