Holy Mary, Goddess Above

[bloodstone20]

HI! I am often forced to atend Church, so I sort of look at The Virgin Mary as a goddess in disguise, sort of like Lilith. I am eclectic of alomost all faiths, including Chiritiaity. I take from them, The Virgin Mary. Well, any thoughts on this subject?

[ladyrowan]

I've had a lot of family funerals in recent years, most of the services being held in church including my Dad's, who was a non-believer.

I've now learnt to 'swich off' from the religious bits, concentrating instead on my own thoughts.

I think that's the only thing we can do. At one funeral I was sitting with my sister, a Druid, and it took all our self-control to stop ourselves walking out in disgust.

For whatever reason many of us have to attend a church we don't believe in, but that doesn't mean we have to listen.

BB

[Merrie]

I agree that concentrating on your own thoughts and beliefs is a good idea, but I actually do try to listen. ( every weekend I have to go to mass with my roman catholic family.)
Sometimes you can actually get past all the things you disagree with and find the very basic meanings of the sermons and stories, and get things out of them that you'd normally miss out on. Like the good samaritan- that's a good story from whatever viewpoint. I just translate things in my head as I hear them at mass. Like recieving eucharist (I'm sorry if this is disrespectful,) but even if you don't believe it's jesus, it's the wheat of the earth, a symbol of our abundant blessings. May we never hunger. The wine--may we never thirst. A mass is just a christian ritual honoring the One we all love (by whatever name) and deserves respect, IMHO.
And Bloodstone--I do the same with Mary. God is God as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think I've really made any sense here...

[ladyrowan]

You've made perfect sense Merrie.
I used to be interested in why most of my countrymen believed in the bible, and learnt quite a lot about it. I think it only sensible to listen to others beliefs; it helps you decide for yourself which way to go.
Had years of regular church-going as a Girl Guide (really!) and Sunday School (only 'cos my best friend went) and in compulsory religious lessons at school.
But at 46, I think I've heard all the bible stories I want! 8O


BB

[bloodstone20]

anyone veiw Mary as a Goddess? i wasn't complaining, just saying the reasons i feel she is ....

[Danustouch]

I have been to a couple of Church Services since becoming Pagan. Sometimes, it gets a little too much to handle. Especially when it's something like a funeral, where you, as well as the others present, are trying to grieve. And it seems like the Sermon is TOTALLY ruling out your own personal beliefs..so ...you feel no comfort coming from it. However, usually, I do try to find SOMETHING positive in the sermons. I've actually heard a couple of good ones.

As for the Mary thing...I personally believe that she is a face OF the Goddess. In other words, somehow, the Goddess energy in the Cosmos REFUSES to be ignored. So...for the Christian folk, SHE has guised herself in even the face of Mary..so that that element of feminine energy could even be present in their faith. Would I personally put a statue of her on my Altar? No. Because I am aware of the Goddesses who were worshipped LONG before her. But..to the Catholics, and even some other denominations of Christian, they have no other strong feminine archtype to identify with. So..she serves her purpose by showing her face to them, as Mary.

I kind of go along with the thought that "All Goddesses, are One Goddess, and All Gods, One God.". It is simply our own perception of them, or our own personal needs which create the differen't personas of which they show themselves to us. I believe that there is a Truth, somewhere, and that All religions, are simply paths to that Truth. They are all stories passed down from generation to generation to explain that which we do not fully know now. So...I believe Mary is a Goddess, to those who choose to see her as such. She is not one I choose to call upon, or to pay homage to. But..to those who kneel at her altar..how could she be anything but?

[bloodstone20]

I'm glad someone can do relate... my mom says she'll buy me a statue of her because She is a Good, Christian Goddess, which seems an oxymoron.

[bloodstone20]

Little do most know but the Holy Ghost is feminine. It is spelled in the feminine form in hebrew, so i assume that It (Shes?) a woman.

[Revelation]

Originally posted by bloodstone20
anyone veiw Mary as a Goddess? i wasn't complaining, just saying the reasons i feel she is .... Without question.

link removed for objectionable material: Mary as the Goddess of Christianity

[Mairwen]

I have a very dear friend in Illinois who is a strict Pagan. Her main deity of choice is The Virgin Mary. She's explained it all to me, and it's really super-cool. :D It reallymakes you think. I like stuff like that. ;)

[Myst]

I always wonder when things like this come up what criteria do you have to evaluate someone as a God or Goddess? Since everyone has a bit of divinity in them I can't imagine anyone who couldn't be considered divine. Sure Mary's a Goddess, why not? To me she represents purity and a divine Mother.

I can't imagine thinking of "walking away in disgust" from a service - whether for a funeral or a wedding. When they start reading from the bible or pray I just take the moments to think of and pray to my own Gods as I wish. I sincerely hope when I get handfasted that my Christian family and friends and those of other faiths can also have this respect for me.

[bloodstone20]

You have to ignore most of the sermon to get the point of it. Today, my mom rambled on about how God is not a microwave oven, when she was reallly talking about a realtionship with divinity. And, BTW, I pay attention and sing. The things they sing about are real to me, such as faith and hope. I do follow the old old story, no matter who's story it is or what one they're talking about. A particular fave of mine is Emmanuel. So they're God will come back and delver those wit htrue faith of evil. Well, I have true faith in the Unknown God as the God and Goddess, So, If heaven is real, my seat is saved. Tolerance has to start somewhere as quoted by SHAM. Let it be with us.

[Danustouch]

I agree that we need to be patient and tolerant, and to try to be respectful of others beliefs. All that I am saying, is that it is not always easy to swallow the emotional responses that rise, when certain things are said in sermons and services. I've been to services, where the old.."Wife obey thy husband" thing was preached..and even WHEN i was a christian..i felt my blood boil. But..I held my piece, and stayed in the pew. I've also been to a funeral, where the priest who was giving the homily had NEVER taken the time to get to know the individual who had passed...but he surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeee made an AWFUL lot of presumptions about her personality. According to the family members..he'd never even interviewed THEM before giving his homily. So most of what he said...was very innaccurate. And in places, downright offensive to her spirit. In other words..he said somethings that made me surprised she didn't rise up out of her coffin and slap him. She had suffered several brain injuries in her life, which made her ...rather..."Slow"..in some respects. The priest had gathered this from talking to SOMEONE about her, and decided to say something like.."to this woman, who was not able to be intelligent, and speak amongst us as an equal in life. May she be healed, and may she be equal to the angels in heaven, when you receive her Oh heavenly Father". Someone, at that point, actually STOPPED the priests prayer and said.."Who said she couldn't talk amongst us like our equals? She might not have had the words to express what she meant..but any one of us could tell you that she was smarter than even most of us.". Little things like that.

Then there is also the fact that when a family member of mine passed away...he was not at all christian. But because his daughter was christian, she had a born again pastor do the service. The pastor spoke about how my family member had probably repented of all of his sins before dead, denounced the wicked one, and been saved. Now..personally..I know that NOT to be true. And I know he'd have been prettttttttttty darn angry to hear that said. Not to mention, the homily seemed to be much more geared to OUR need to be reconciled, then simply a message about the passing of a dearly beloved man. This seemed VERY wrong to me. But again, I sat through it. Afterwords, I made a POINT of taking my discreetly hidden pentacle out of my shirt though..and walking directly UP to the podium, to say my little bit. Which had a lot to do about My relative returning to the earth which had given life to him. heheh. Sorry..but that's the way he would have wanted things said....and that's the only way I could say them. Most of my family is NOT born again. So..although i was respectful enough not to jam my beliefs down anyones throaght, and to merely address the issue of how we would all miss him so much, i did bring the message more to a level which us.."Non" born again christians could understand, too. The pastor almost bit his tongue off, it seemed.

[Myst]

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences.

I have only been to one funeral. Therein the pastor never met or talked to us about my aunt. He read some scriptures from the bible and asked God to help her on her journey and be with us as we mourn to help us be strong. Then he read a little essay my mother wrote about my aunt about her life, her interests, things we'll miss about her, et cetera, which made people cry. The priest didn't even stumble while reading how my aunt had an interest in the occult and paranormal. Now she wasn't a religious woman, she never went to church, but I know the ceremony was arranged to recognize her passing as best most of us knew how and to help give some of us comfort. Especially my grandmother (my aunt's mother) who is basically senile and who was NOT taking it well. I'm sure some of my relatives are comforted to think my aunt is now with God, even if they've never been to a church in their life. I also think it was a good idea of my mom to prepare something to be said, I don't think any of us could have gone up and spoken, but this lended a personal touch to the ceremony.

We felt by then her spirit had passed anyway. I couldn't be present for the visitation the night before, but my cousin the next day recounted to me how she felt our aunt there, and how her mom (who's not Pagan) even mentioned she felt her there.

While there I know myself, my cousins, and their husband and girlfriend, had their pentacles in full view without worry. After all, what priest would interrupt a funeral to ask us to remove them, if he even recognized them at all? Then again, the family are all half Indian and my great grandmother read tea leaves and foresaw the future, so Paganism isn't a strange concept for us.

I did note that what was said made less sense then it ever had (I actually went to church and chose to be Christian for a couple years in my teens), but recognized that even if it didn't seem to make sense the words were meant for comfort. And IMHO there's nothing wrong with finding comfort where you can, especially at a funeral for a close family member.

[Mairwen]

Okay, I'm talking as me, and not a moderator. But let's steer back toward Mary as Goddess, and away from funerals and such, okay?

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I've been thinking abit about this subject lately. I was raised Catholic and I've been thinking of Our Lady of Guadalupe, since I am Mexican and this is the vision of her we used the most.

A few months ago I got curious about all the Mary visions people see and looked up some info on the net. I found this link and thought it was very interesting:

http://www.sancta.org/nameguad.html

Its about how Her name may be different than what the Church made it out to be, most likely a misunderstanding of pronunciation.

She is most revered and honored by Mexican Catholics and others of Latino descent. Also by practitioners of Santeria and other Native belief systems that were mixed with Catholicism.

In the last week, I've been remembering things from my childhood and one of the things I remember is that God was always this aloof figure who had better things to do than to listen to mortals,this is what he was to me. But the Virgin Mary was a Mother and prayers to her were always listened to and felt like they had more substance, to me. She was celebrated and flowers were placed before her picture in the church. She was beautiful. In 8th grade it was a great honor to be her in the retelling of the story of Our Lady. To me, she is but one face of the Goddess that is a link to my past and my family.

[RavenSunshine]

Did you watch the TNT special of "Mists of Avalon"? At the very end, Morgan was staying at the Glauster Abbey. She was in a room with other women and children who were praying to the statue of Mary. Even Morgan in the show saw that the Statue of Mary was just another vestiture of the goddess.

Chosing the path, is a spiritual one that we pick and chose what feels right within ourselves. Myself I never felt right in the catholic church even though I was baptised, and confirmed into "the Church". "the Church" is a man made religion only. If you get past the cermony and listen to the teachings there are the same in every major religion. Like Wiccan Rede, one of the ten commandments, treat others as you wish to be treated (not word for word).

Everything goes back to the old religions, surronded by the earth's cycles, Easter (rebirth), Asension (sp?) in the begining of May like May day, All Saints day (Samhain), Advent and Christmas (Yuletime).

For me, Brigid is my goddess still I hold Mary in the highest esteem also. But then again I have alway felt that there is something male/female out there, a higher being. Whether we call them gods or goddess by whatever name, they are one being.

I really hope that make sense!

Blessed Be

[Mairwen]

Excellent thread, gang! Keep up the good work!!! :D