Pagan does NOT equal Wiccan...

[Athena-Nadine]

...necessarily.

I know that most of the people here do not do this, but this is something I have a serious pet peeve with. As it seems that it is usually the people who are newly seeking who confuse the two, I posted this here.

All Wiccans are Pagan.

All Pagans are not Wiccan.

Sort of like:

All Catholics are Christian.

All Christians are not Catholic.

There are an inordinate amount of Pagan faiths. Wicca is only one of them. True, it is right now the most prominent, but that is all it is--a single Pagan religion.

I am not Wiccan. I am a Hellenic Reconstructionist. My religion in no way resembles Wicca.

If you are one of the people who uses the two interchangeably, STOP. You are making assumptions about people that are often wrong, often insulting, and often rude. For many of us, it is tantamount to saying, "Wiccans are really Christians."

[Fideal]

...necessarily.

I know that most of the people here do not do this, but this is something I have a serious pet peeve with. As it seems that it is usually the people who are newly seeking who confuse the two, I posted this here.

All Wiccans are Pagan.

All Pagans are not Wiccan.

Sort of like:

All Catholics are Christian.

All Christians are not Catholic.

There are an inordinate amount of Pagan faiths. Wicca is only one of them. True, it is right now the most prominent, but that is all it is--a single Pagan religion.

I am not Wiccan. I am a Hellenic Reconstructionist. My religion in no way resembles Wicca.

If you are one of the people who uses the two interchangeably, STOP. You are making assumptions about people that are often wrong, often insulting, and often rude. For many of us, it is tantamount to saying, "Wiccans are really Christians."

hear hear

[mothwench]

nallia, i really appreciate you trying to clear up one major misconception that has been bothering me, as well. :woot: i wish we could sticky this for a while! :graduate:

[Heathen Dawn]

Right.

And the pattern of celebrating eight solar holidays is called the Wiccan Wheel of the Year. Not Pagan Wheel of the Year. Even the blessed Witchvox has that mistake (www.witchvox.com/xholidays.html).

[Rockprincess]

Right.

And the pattern of celebrating eight solar holidays is called the Wiccan Wheel of the Year. Not Pagan Wheel of the Year. Even the blessed Witchvox has that mistake (www.witchvox.com/xholidays.html). (http://www.witchvox.com/xholidays.html).)
Actually, HD, lots of people use the wheel of the year. Druidism and other Celtic Reconstructionism paths definitely do, and they would certainly NOT call it the Wiccan Wheel of the Year.

[Fideal]

Some CR's don't use the equinoxs though, and certainly don't all call them Yule/Eostre, ect. because those are different culture's holidays.

[mothwench]

aye, there is a little truth there though. from what i've learned so far(though i'm careful to state this as fact, i really don't know enough about it.) celtic recons concentrate more on the quarter festivals, beltaine, samhain, imbolc and lughnassadh, whereas norse recons use the solstices and equinoxes.
anyone know more about this?

[Ben Trismegistus]

And the pattern of celebrating eight solar holidays is called the Wiccan Wheel of the Year.
Actually, I've never heard it referred to as anything but "The Wheel of the Year", and I don't believe it's solely a Wiccan concept.

[danielle]

I have to agree with you Ben, I am not wiccan but I do follow the wheel of the year, and know of others who do also. Some wiccan, some not

[Kadynas]

Actually, I've never heard it referred to as anything but "The Wheel of the Year", and I don't believe it's solely a Wiccan concept.
Agreed... and I always thought the whole Wheel of the Year thing was the only truly genuine Celtic part of the whole Wiccan path! :lol:

[mothwench]

you're right, the wheel of the year is a natural cycle, i'm sure the concept wasn't invented in the 40's.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Yup! Like mothwench said many, if not most, CRs leave out the solstices in their ritual celebrations.

And Nallia... :yourock: :hailmol: I so agree with you. I get so sick of people assuming I'm Wiccan.

[Athena-Nadine]

Agreed... and I always thought the whole Wheel of the Year thing was the only truly genuine Celtic part of the whole Wiccan path! :lol:
*...shrugs...* I was always taught they were a mix of Celtic and Anglo holidays. But again, I'm not Wiccan, so I could easily be wrong. :lol:

That said, I don't know that they could be called "Genuinely Celtic™" anyway, considering that there was no single definitive Celtic culture or religion.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

That said, I don't know that they could be called "Genuinely Celtic™" anyway, considering that there was no single definitive Celtic culture or religion.

They're referred to that way because the majority of them were celebrated by all the Celtic speaking peoples that we have records of. All the quarter festivals (or whatever it is they're called) were celebrated by the Gaelic peoples (Irish, Scottish, and Manx). The only quarter festival that I know wasn't celebrated by all is that of Là Fhèill Brìghde (Imbolc for those that don't speak Gàidhlig better known as Scots Gaelic). The Welsh and the Cornish have no known records of celebrating Bride's Feast...though the Welsh after the import of Christianity did began celebrating something similar at that time. As for the Breton's I'm not so sure about them.

[Athena-Nadine]

They're referred to that way because the majority of them were celebrated by all the Celtic speaking peoples that we have records of. All the quarter festivals (or whatever it is they're called) were celebrated by the Gaelic peoples (Irish, Scottish, and Manx). The only quarter festival that I know wasn't celebrated by all is that of Là Fhèill Brìghde (Imbolc for those that don't speak Gàidhlig better known as Scots Gaelic). The Welsh and the Cornish have no known records of celebrating Bride's Feast...though the Welsh after the import of Christianity did began celebrating something similar at that time. As for the Breton's I'm not so sure about them.
Ah. See, that makes it all make sense! I love finding out the reasons behind things. :)

[Cataline]

...necessarily.

I know that most of the people here do not do this, but this is something I have a serious pet peeve with. As it seems that it is usually the people who are newly seeking who confuse the two, I posted this here.

All Wiccans are Pagan.

All Pagans are not Wiccan.


:lol: I remember ages ago taking one of those quizzes on BeliefNet, being told I akin to a Neo-Pagan, and being surprised to find out all that included. Didn't think it had anything to do with Wicca at all!

[mothwench]

*...shrugs...* I was always taught they were a mix of Celtic and Anglo holidays. But again, I'm not Wiccan, so I could easily be wrong. :lol:

That said, I don't know that they could be called "Genuinely Celtic™" anyway, considering that there was no single definitive Celtic culture or religion.

hey, nallia. this is quite off-topic, but i just have to ask: what are the helenic celebrations like? and when? something i've always wondered.
:huh:

[mucgwyrt]

If the celts didn't celebrate the solstices... how come stonehenge is aligned with the rising sun on the solstice? Or was that not built by the celts (pre-celts?)

[Erincelt]

This is a bit pet peeve of mine as well, so let me just add my own blood-curdling stare in with yours. ;)

And a side comment on the Wheel of the Year... you know, all those years spent planning and preparing for Sabbat festivals, I remember wondering how some people managed to do the things they did/do... Now as I've made this slow transition from Wiccan to Kemetic/Egyptian Recon (uh oh, cat's out of the bag now! ...as if no one noticed) I realized something...

The Wheel is darn simple. It seems likely every time I turn around there's another festival, to yet another god (or pair, or triad, or heck sometimes whole divine families)... Why even just today I have Heru, Shu, Tefnut, Heka, and Het-her all in festival... four seperate festivals even... Ah well, at least it keeps me busy!

[Ahautenites]

**snickers** Ain't that the truth. The Kemetic calendar year has more holidays than you can shake a stick at. And figuring out exactly *when* the year begins is a challenge all by itself.

[skilly-nilly]

If the celts didn't celebrate the solstices... how come stonehenge is aligned with the rising sun on the solstice? Or was that not built by the celts (pre-celts?)


I add myself to the staring set:
"This is a bit pet peeve of mine as well, so let me just add my own blood-curdling stare in with yours."

Not only is the Wicca/Pagan thing a peeve, but for me so is the Stonehenge/'Celtic' thing......*is peeved :sick: *

Making assumptions about BCE peoples is kind of like digging up dinosaurs. What we KNOW is limited by what happened to be preserved, what we ASSUME to fill in the cracks needs to be noted.

It seems extremely likely that Stonehenge was not built by 'Celtic' peoples--they were migratory tribes way out in the west of Europe when it was constructed. The peoples that lived there undoubtedly left their genetic and religious imprint in the mix obtained when the 'Celts' roamed in, and it seems likely that the 'Celts' found Stonehenge compelling(who doesn't?) and stirred it into their belief-stew.

Archeological and folk-loric evidence exists to indicate strongly that the Gaeltech peoples in the British Isles area celebrated the Quarter-Days (that is the non-solstice and equinox holidays) from pre-Roman times till now. 2 thoughts occur to me:
1) The Quarter-Days are Fire Festivals, and would leave more archeological evidence, be reported by outside reporters as memorable, and (because they tie into agrarian seasonal ritual) be preserved as folkloric practices.
2)However, it's hard to imagine celebrating a day halfway between 2 solar occurances without also being aware of/celebrating the solar occurances. So I do imagine it. If, however, the celebrations were not communal (for example if the Mid-Winter was the day to get together with family and have big dinner) they would be less likely to leave dinosaur bones for the future. Also (possibly because those days were more familial, solomn, or non-agrarian) the early Xian Church replaced them with Church Holidays (Xmass, Easter, StJohn's Day, Thanksgiving) and subsumed the folk memory into the practices of the church.

I am never-Wiccan and I celebrate all the 8--the more the better, I say!

:fpartyman , skilly-nilly

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Skilly-Nilly I agree with your assesment. It makes a lot of sense. But seeing as we have little evidence that the actual people celebrated the solstices and equinoxes, I tend to leave it out of my practice. Now, I do recognize the solstices and equinoxes as they come, and spend some time reflecting on them, but I don't really do anything to celebrate them per se because of the lack of evidence.

I also wonder if perhaps the solstices and equinoxes were more likely to have been 'celebrated' by the Druids but not the everyday people. That makes sense really, at least to me. The solstices and equinoxes wouldn't have been as important to the Celtic peoples if you think about the fact that the four fire festivals were all focused on the growing seasons.

This is the way I look at it:

Imbolc was important because it's when the land came back to life. Plants started returning, lambs were born, etc. Beltaine was really the beginning of their growing season and when they took the animals back down to the summer pastures. Lughnassadh was when they first began to harvest the 'fruits of their labor.' In this case literally. And Samhain signalled an end to the cycle, when they must hole up again for the long winter, bring the animals in, and have all the crops harvested by. These all make sense as things to celebrate.

The solstices and equinoxes make far less sense. They were important to the everyday person only in that they were used to determine when their season began. They didn't seem to hold any special significance themselves, other than marking the 'midpoints' or as prgonosticators. So why would they bother celebrating the day?

I fully believe that the days were acknowledged and probably honored by the druids. But not your average person. Since my practices revolve around that of the everyday person, not the clergy, I prefer to leave the solstices and equinoxes out. For me it is enough to know when they are and possibly do a small rite to recognize them.

[hedgecub]

Thank you Nallia!

I'm an eclectic Pagan, and my path doesn't resemble Wicca at all. I don't worship Deity through a Goddess and a God, I don't use the four elements, I don't believe in the Rede, I don't believe in the law of three, I don't cast circles, I don't call the quarters I don't do lunar cycles, and I only celebrate the solstices and Kekri (the Finnish equivalent of Samhain, so I'm told).
And it gets a wee bit annoying when people assume I do all of the above just 'cause I say I'm pagan :)

[Athena-Nadine]

hey, nallia. this is quite off-topic, but i just have to ask: what are the helenic celebrations like? and when? something i've always wondered.
:huh:
Oh, my. There are so many; where do I begin? :lol: In this, it seems to be a lot like the Kemetic festivals; but then, the Greeks were greatly influenced byt he Egyptians, so it would make sense.

The festivals follow the Attikan calendar (see Festival Calendar (http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/6670/doc/fest.html) for a list), which follows the Lunar Year. A specific day every month belongs to each god. There are so many that every day is dedicated to one or more of Them! There are also other festivals (see Cycle of Festivals (http://sponde.com/GeneralFestivalCycle.html)). There is a festival of family, a festival for your patron god, a festival to honor the dead...

[Heathen Dawn]

Actually, HD, lots of people use the wheel of the year. Druidism and other Celtic Reconstructionism paths definitely do, and they would certainly NOT call it the Wiccan Wheel of the Year.

They don’t have 8 holidays spread symmetrically across the year. AFAIK the Celts have only Samhain, Beltane and Lughnasadh. The other five come from other sources (eg Yule from Roman Saturnalia). Having all the eight as standard is Wiccan.

[WhiteDragon]

Yes! I oh so do hate it when someone just assumes i am Wiccan...
I hate that!

I have nothing agaisnt Wiccans, I just don't follow that path.

It also really bugs me when someone states that Wicca is older than x-tian.. lol.

I wish people would either ask or read up before they say things... :)

[Xander67]

this sounds like one of them brain teaser questions,

If all wiccans are pagans and some Pagans are wiccans then ..... lol

[Ahautenites]

How many circles would a Pagan cast if a Pagan did cast circles? (to the tune of the Woodchuck song)

[skilly-nilly]

They don’t have 8 holidays spread symmetrically across the year. AFAIK the Celts have only Samhain, Beltane and Lughnasadh. The other five come from other sources (eg Yule from Roman Saturnalia). Having all the eight as standard is Wiccan.


No matter what one thinks about the Equinoxex and Solstices, 'Celts' definatively without question absolutely celebrate/d Imbolc!!! Your OPINION my be that they only celebrated the 3 you pick, but anthropological research does not agree with you.

AFAIK? :huh: , skilly-nilly

[skilly-nilly]

I also wonder if perhaps the solstices and equinoxes were more likely to have been 'celebrated' by the Druids but not the everyday people. That makes sense really, at least to me. The solstices and equinoxes wouldn't have been as important to the Celtic peoples if you think about the fact that the four fire festivals were all focused on the growing seasons.


Very true Placing the Solstices and Equinoxes (I always wonder if it should be Equinoi :rolleyes: ) requires astrological observation and record-keeping that is, for example, unavailable to me and, I assume, unavailable to the average BCE bog-trotter as well. However, tracking the agrarian year is like breathing to the agrarist, eh?

I just like holidays---skilly-nilly

[Rockprincess]

Skilly - AFAIK= As Far As I Know :hugz:

[Xander67]

How many circles would a Pagan cast if a Pagan did cast circles? (to the tune of the Woodchuck song)

:wtf:

4 :farmerjoe:

[Ahautenites]

I meant like, "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"

[Rockprincess]

Very true Placing the Solstices and Equinoxes (I always wonder if it should be Equinoi :rolleyes: ) requires astrological observation and record-keeping that is, for example, unavailable to me and, I assume, unavailable to the average BCE bog-trotter as well. However, tracking the agrarian year is like breathing to the agrarist, eh?

I just like holidays---skilly-nilly
Saoirse and Skilly..wouldnt' the druids (the spiritual leaders of the clans), have pointed out to the people that it was time for the next celebration? :whatgives

[Heathen Dawn]

Skilly - AFAIK= As Far As I Know :hugz:

Thanks.

Why do people get so worked up? :( Even if it were my uninformed opinion, that’s a reason to get angry? Jesus H Christ...

[Athena-Nadine]

HD, I don't think Silly was angry. *...shrugs...* At least, that wasn't the impression I got from the posts. :)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Saoirse and Skilly..wouldnt' the druids (the spiritual leaders of the clans), have pointed out to the people that it was time for the next celebration? :whatgives

Well it seems likely that the official calendar was 'kept' by the Druids, and thus they would have been the ones in the know as to the actual dating of the festivals. But that doesn't mean that the average person didn't have their own way of tracking the year and knowing approximately when the festival would fall. Like skilly-nilly pointed out, as agriculturists they should have their own way of tracking the progression of the agrain year as it was very important to them. Of course, I fully admit that I don't know the actual answer, and have of yet not seen anything to give me an exact answer. It would be nice if there was a pat answer to all our questions, but when deaing with the Celtic cultures, there just isn't in most cases.

[Isil Darkmoon]

HD: I think people are getting "angry" at your "uninformed" opinion because even after people who have done the research have stated what are the *commonly accepted* facts nowadays, you're insisting that they're all wrong and your answer is right.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter what was done in 'the old days' for this conversation. People are out and out saying "I'm not Wiccan, but in my modern faith, I celebrate all 8 holidays" yet your'e insisting "no, only Wiccans do that" when they've given first-hand statements to the contrary.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

No matter what one thinks about the Equinoxex and Solstices, 'Celts' definatively without question absolutely celebrate/d Imbolc!!! Your OPINION my be that they only celebrated the 3 you pick, but anthropological research does not agree with you.

AFAIK? :huh: , skilly-nilly

True, however the Coligny Calendar actually has nothing signiffying Imbolc, whereas the other three fire festivals are clearly marked. But seeing as the tablets were found in Sequanni territory along the banks of the Seinne this merely supports the theory that the Gauls didn't celebrate Imbolc, not that all of the Celts didn't. Archaeology and history certainly show to us the Gaelic (Irish, Scots, and Manx for those who don't know) did in fact celebrate Imbolc.

I'm curious if Nantanos, who knows much more about the Gauls than I do, knows anything about whether or not the Gauls did celebrate Imbolc or something like it. I may have to poke him to get his input.

Furthermore, I wonder if we should create a new thread for this topic. We've diverged far from the original intent of Nallia's post and I don't think it's very kind of us to continue to hijack her thread.

Skilly, I like holidays too. Yule is one I definitely don't think I could give up, or Midsummer. The Equinoxes don't affect me as much, but I very much love the Solstices. I jjust don't include them in my religious celebrations.

[Athena-Nadine]

Nah, don't worry about it, Hon. :) It's an interesting conversation and it's fine where it is. Most people will still read the first post and get the point anyway, which wasn't really meant to start a conversation; it was just a statement of fact. :)

Although, being that this is in New Pagans, maybe it would be wiser to move the festival conversation to its own thread so that people who really need this information don't miss it?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Nah, don't worry about it, Hon. :) It's an interesting conversation and it's fine where it is. Most people will still read the first post and get the point anyway, which wasn't really meant to start a conversation; it was just a statement of fact. :)

Although, being that this is in New Pagans, maybe it would be wiser to move the festival conversation to its own thread so that people who really need this information don't miss it?

Glad you don't mind. :smile:

You're right about New Pagans not necessarily being the right place, but I'm not sure where to put it then. I sometimes hesitate to put things in the Druid forum, because it doesn't get much traffic and a lot of good strings don't get nearly the 'play time' as they would if posted elsewhere.

[Athena-Nadine]

Glad you don't mind. :smile:

You're right about New Pagans not necessarily being the right place, but I'm not sure where to put it then. I sometimes hesitate to put things in the Druid forum, because it doesn't get much traffic and a lot of good strings don't get nearly the 'play time' as they would if posted elsewhere.
No, I think New Pagans is the perfect place for this conversation. :hehehehe: I think this is information that most new seekers could definitely use. That, and a good number of us more settled into our beliefs and religions come here to see if there is something that we maybe haven't learned yet as well. :graduate:

I just think it would be a shame for all this information to be buried by my thread title.

[Ahautenites]

**is an active proponent of the view by New Posts button** :D

[Lunacie]

**is an active proponent of the view by New Posts button** :D

Me too.

Why do some Wiccans get upset that I practice Wicca although it doesn't exactly fit what I believe, or what I understand about the nature of diety and the universe and my place in it? It's the closest path I've found and I enjoy celebrating with other Wiccans. I also enjoy attending a weekly study group for energy workings, you might call it a class in witchcraft. If I study and practice more things than just Wicca, does that make me less of a Wiccan?

[Laurelei]

Hmm... *wonders why she never noticed this thread before*

I agree. I'm a Pagan who practices WitchCraft, but I'm not a Wiccan! That confuzzles a lot of people. I won't call myself a Wiccan because I do not agree with the Wiccan Rede, and dislike the idea of a coven environment (among other things).

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

No, I think New Pagans is the perfect place for this conversation. :hehehehe: I think this is information that most new seekers could definitely use. That, and a good number of us more settled into our beliefs and religions come here to see if there is something that we maybe haven't learned yet as well. :graduate:

I just think it would be a shame for all this information to be buried by my thread title.

Well I moved the pertinent posts to their own string, so we can continue our conversation without it getting lost. :smile:

Festivals debate continued here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=49813

[Heathen Dawn]

HD: I think people are getting "angry" at your "uninformed" opinion because even after people who have done the research have stated what are the *commonly accepted* facts nowadays, you're insisting that they're all wrong and your answer is right.

I’m not insisting. Saying “AFAIK” is the opposite of insistence.

People are out and out saying "I'm not Wiccan, but in my modern faith, I celebrate all 8 holidays" yet your'e insisting "no, only Wiccans do that" when they've given first-hand statements to the contrary.

I’m saying the pattern of eight holidays is a Wiccan innovation, with no basis in ancient Celtic religion, so those CR practitioners who celebrate 8 holidays are influenced by Wicca. I could be wrong, but that’s what my research has taught me.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

HD, could you be a sweetie and move your response to the other thread started for this. We're trying to keep it out of this one so that it's more visible and not hijacking Nallia's thread

[Lunacie]

Hmm... *wonders why she never noticed this thread before*

I agree. I'm a Pagan who practices WitchCraft, but I'm not a Wiccan! That confuzzles a lot of people. I won't call myself a Wiccan because I do not agree with the Wiccan Rede, and dislike the idea of a coven environment (among other things).

Might be branching off into a whole nother thread again, but what is it about the Rede that you disagree with? I'm asking because it can be confusing and I've seen a lot of people who take it the wrong way.

[Ahautenites]

I know I'm risking putting things in Laurelei's mouth, but I know a lot of people who don't fully understand what the Rede says take issue with it meaning that they can't possibly go through life without harming anything.

[Athena-Nadine]

I know I'm risking putting things in Laurelei's mouth, but I know a lot of people who don't fully understand what the Rede says take issue with it meaning that they can't possibly go through life without harming anything.
*...nods...* I've lost count of how many people I see these days who assume that the Rede means, "Harm none." Somewhere, it seems that a HUGE amount of people are missing the point--that it's not about harming nothing and no one, but about personal responsibility.

I'm not saying that you feel this way, Laurelai; I'm just mentioning a trend I've noticed in general. :)

Personally, while I agree wholeheartedly with personal responsibility, the Rede in any form means nothing to me since it has absolutely nothing to do with my religion--especially these days when so many people misinterpret it and argue that any type of self-defense or retribution is BAD™, which flies right in the face of my own religious beliefs.

OK, I see I'm rambling again so I'll shut up now...

[Erincelt]

As to the Rede thing... the issues of people's presumptions about it are part of the reason why the small 'tradition' I'm involved in (put in quotes because its strictly a local phenomenon) abandoned teaching it as our central tenet. Yes, abandoned it. Instead we teach the point behind the Rede as we see it (Equal Freedom with Equal Responsibility) and then mention it practically as an after-thought.

As to another thing that was mentioned... we don't have Covens either. Or at least that is, we don't encourage any sort of formal coven environment. We're fellowship-centric and try to avoid strict hierarchies, real or imagined.

[Ahautenites]

I think it would be nice to be with a group of people who believed exactly as I do, but then again, my beliefs have a habit of changing (or is that mutating? :p ) every so often, so I don't think it would be possible for me to ever be with that kind of group.

I like the idea of a study group of people with similar (not exact) beliefs, but I don't like that idea because of the structure and commitment to anything other than my own whims (and those of my deities).

So... **ponders and decides to play devil's advocate** Why do some Wiccans feel the need to tell other kinds of Pagans that just retribution is wrong? And likewise, why do Pagans who feel just retribution is valid (of which I'm one) feel the need to convince Wiccans that it's not "bad." Is this an impasse? Or is one group really right and the other wrong? Or are they both right or both wrong?

And how does Karma play into each side's beliefs?

[Lunacie]

I suppose it plays into individual responsibilities. Some people wouldn't be comfortable with certain actions, while others wouldn't be comfortable NOT taking action in the same situation. I only hope I am staying open to thinking about things in new ways, and hope that others are not so determined to "be right" that they can't see things from a different viewpoint occasionally.

And Wiccans certainly see Karma as something different than the origins it came to us from.

I hate ending sentences with a preposition, but had trouble putting that thought into words. :T

[Erincelt]

And Wiccans certainly see Karma as something different than the origins it came to us from.

I hate ending sentences with a preposition, but had trouble putting that thought into words. :T "And Wiccans certainly see Kharma as something different than the origins from which it came."

And that is precisely why I don't call it kharma... it isn't kharma... I don't know why so many insist on using the wrong word despite it being rather obvious.

[WhiteDragon]

Karma...

http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/freenet/rootdir/menus/sigs/religion/buddhism/introduction/truths/karma2.html

he he he! :)

[Ahautenites]

**grins** ErinCelt, good point. I should have picked a different word. I know people get frustrated with the missuse. I just was typing quickly and didn't think about what the word really is that I was looking for. (And as you can see, I have no problems with ending sentences with a preposition or beginning sentences with a conjunction.)

[Erincelt]

I'm always willing to admit that just saying "karma" is simpler/faster than "cosmic elastic stuff that'll whip back and smack yer arse"... :D

[Athena-Nadine]

Wouldn't it be the Law of Return?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

That's what I was thinking Nallia. Not quite as easy to type, but it is an accurate description.

[Ahautenites]

We could shorten it to LoR for our purposes here. :)

[Ben Trismegistus]

So... **ponders and decides to play devil's advocate** Why do some Wiccans feel the need to tell other kinds of Pagans that just retribution is wrong? And likewise, why do Pagans who feel just retribution is valid (of which I'm one) feel the need to convince Wiccans that it's not "bad." Is this an impasse? Or is one group really right and the other wrong? Or are they both right or both wrong?
*scratches head* Perhaps you're referring to white-light fluffy-bunny Wiccans who believe that you should never hurt anyone ever under any circumstances. Most of us don't feel that way.

I'm not sure what you mean by retribution. Revenge? Doing something bad to someone who has done something bad to you? Personally, I think that that sort of retribution doesn't solve anything. It's not "right" or "wrong", it's just ultimately fruitless. There are exceptions, of course -- if someone hurt my family, I would kill them. No question. But everyday retribution? Why bother?

[Elfa Wylde]

You can say that again.
I'm NOT Wiccan. but a LOT of people call me that. I've tried in the past to explain "no.. i'm not wiccan. I'm Druid/Celtic Shamanistic" then they say "what's that?" and actually EXPECT a SHORT answer.

I just smile and say "It's an old Irish religion." then suggest a book title that they might read to learn more. Too often though a LOT of stuff gets shoved into the "Shamanism" catagory that doesn't even belong there. But then again.. look at anthropologists: If they can't figure out what it's actually for... or don't find it interesting enough... they shove it into the "ritual use" section. as if no one ever had specialized tools or toys?? sheesh. If you're not going to properly identify what it is.. why bother mentioning (did i spell that right?) it at all???

[Nitefalle]

And Wiccans certainly see Karma as something different than the origins it came to us from.


Thank you, Lunacie, for pointing this out!! This is really the main thing that bugs me about Wiccans and their three fold rule. Karma is not instant!!! Not according to Hinduism, anyway. Plus, most people don't get the fact that at the end of the day, a person isn't supposed to have ANY karma, good or bad, or else you'll be stuck in this earthly wheel of incarnations. Whew, ok breathe, lol. Sorry, I get worked up about this.

~N~

[Ben Trismegistus]

This is really the main thing that bugs me about Wiccans and their three fold rule. Karma is not instant!!! Not according to Hinduism, anyway. Plus, most people don't get the fact that at the end of the day, a person isn't supposed to have ANY karma, good or bad, or else you'll be stuck in this earthly wheel of incarnations. Whew, ok breathe, lol. Sorry, I get worked up about this.
First off, Nitefalle, not all Wiccans view the threefold law as gospel - in fact, most don't. Second, it stands to reason that Wiccans might have a different view of karma than Hindus, since they are two separate religions. That's like saying, "There aren't multiple gods. Not according to Christianity, anyways."

[Erincelt]

Second, it stands to reason that Wiccans might have a different view of karma than Hindus, since they are two separate religions. I agree with the rest of what you said, but... it seems to me that we ought not use the word kharma at all unless we mean the same thing that's meant when the word is used (via origin) in Sanatana Dharma ("hinduism"), Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, etc. I pretty much stick to the "Law of Return" lingo. Although I sometimes wonder if its more of a rule than a law, but that's probably another discussion.

[la tortuga]

I don't like that people say that, either. :shrug: Sometimes my grandmother says "Pagan" and not "Wiccan", but... we're Wiccan and Pagan, so no one really minds at all.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I agree with the rest of what you said, but... it seems to me that we ought not use the word kharma at all unless we mean the same thing that's meant when the word is used (via origin) in Sanatana Dharma ("hinduism"), Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, etc. I pretty much stick to the "Law of Return" lingo. Although I sometimes wonder if its more of a rule than a law, but that's probably another discussion.
You're right. "Karma" is a term that has unfortunately been coopted by all sorts of "alternative" types, most of whom are unaware of the original Eastern meaning. I try to avoid the word whenever possible, because I know that I don't understand the Hindu implications.

That said, I stand by my comment that Wicca has a different concept of what you might term "karma" (which is to say, spiritual consequences for one's actions) than Hinduism.

[ororo]

I am so thoroughly confused. I think I'm wiccan, but you make it sound so bad. I love the Rede but mine has an editation. Don't harm, unless in defense, you know? What is the difference between Pagan and Wiccan that makes everyone so hyper? Besides the calender differences. I'm so confused :RuNew:

[Isil Darkmoon]

Ororo, most Wiccans don't mind being called"pagan" since, tehchnically, they are.

Some pagans, though, mind being called "wiccan" when thye are not.

Take an Asatru, for example: someone who worships the Norse pantheon, such as the thunder/lightning god Thor, and other war-related gods, where a noble battle (physical, intellectual, or spiritual) is one of the most honorable things one can do.

This person would tend to object to being called "wiccan" and put under the heading of peaceful deities and the Rede, when in fact they have nothing to do with one another.

It's like saying a Roman Catholic and a Uniterian believe the same things.

[ororo]

Ahhhh. I get it. So, I'm actually pagan, with a strong belief in karma? I praise all gods and goddesses for the power they hold but not always wanting to pray to them to use that power or intent. Or am I just some half-breed?