Festivals coversation

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Okay, since there might be people who will miss out on this conversation since it evolved from Nallia's string of Pagan doesn't equal Wiccan, I thought I'd move it here. I took the liberty of posting the pertinent posts here with proper credit given so people know what we're talking about. Hope ya'll don't mind.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Heathen Dawn:

Right.

And the pattern of celebrating eight solar holidays is called the Wiccan Wheel of the Year. Not Pagan Wheel of the Year. Even the blessed Witchvox has that mistake (www.witchvox.com/xholidays.html).

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Rockprincess:

Actually, HD, lots of people use the wheel of the year. Druidism and other Celtic Reconstructionism paths definitely do, and they would certainly NOT call it the Wiccan Wheel of the Year.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Fideal:

Some CR's don't use the equinoxs though, and certainly don't all call them Yule/Eostre, ect. because those are different culture's holidays.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Mothwench:

aye, there is a little truth there though. from what i've learned so far(though i'm careful to state this as fact, i really don't know enough about it.) celtic recons concentrate more on the quarter festivals, beltaine, samhain, imbolc and lughnassadh, whereas norse recons use the solstices and equinoxes.
anyone know more about this?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Ben T:

Actually, I've never heard it referred to as anything but "The Wheel of the Year", and I don't believe it's solely a Wiccan concept.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

danielle:

I have to agree with you Ben, I am not wiccan but I do follow the wheel of the year, and know of others who do also. Some wiccan, some not

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Kadynas:

Agreed... and I always thought the whole Wheel of the Year thing was the only truly genuine Celtic part of the whole Wiccan path!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

mothwench:

you're right, the wheel of the year is a natural cycle, i'm sure the concept wasn't invented in the 40's.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Saoirse Aiyana:

Yup! Like mothwench said many, if not most, CRs leave out the solstices in their ritual celebrations.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Nallia

*...shrugs...* I was always taught they were a mix of Celtic and Anglo holidays. But again, I'm not Wiccan, so I could easily be wrong.

That said, I don't know that they could be called "Genuinely Celtic™" anyway, considering that there was no single definitive Celtic culture or religion.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Saoirse Aiyana

They're referred to that way because the majority of them were celebrated by all the Celtic speaking peoples that we have records of. All the quarter festivals (or whatever it is they're called) were celebrated by the Gaelic peoples (Irish, Scottish, and Manx). The only quarter festival that I know wasn't celebrated by all is that of Là Fhèill Brìghde (Imbolc for those that don't speak Gàidhlig better known as Scots Gaelic). The Welsh and the Cornish have no known records of celebrating Bride's Feast...though the Welsh after the import of Christianity did began celebrating something similar at that time. As for the Breton's I'm not so sure about them.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Nallia

Ah. See, that makes it all make sense! I love finding out the reasons behind things.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

macha:

If the celts didn't celebrate the solstices... how come stonehenge is aligned with the rising sun on the solstice? Or was that not built by the celts (pre-celts?)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Erincelt

This is a bit pet peeve of mine as well, so let me just add my own blood-curdling stare in with yours.

And a side comment on the Wheel of the Year... you know, all those years spent planning and preparing for Sabbat festivals, I remember wondering how some people managed to do the things they did/do... Now as I've made this slow transition from Wiccan to Kemetic/Egyptian Recon (uh oh, cat's out of the bag now! ...as if no one noticed) I realized something...

The Wheel is darn simple. It seems likely every time I turn around there's another festival, to yet another god (or pair, or triad, or heck sometimes whole divine families)... Why even just today I have Heru, Shu, Tefnut, Heka, and Het-her all in festival... four seperate festivals even... Ah well, at least it keeps me busy!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

NeferSesmet

*snickers** Ain't that the truth. The Kemetic calendar year has more holidays than you can shake a stick at. And figuring out exactly *when* the year begins is a challenge all by itself.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

skilly-nilly:

I add myself to the staring set:
"This is a bit pet peeve of mine as well, so let me just add my own blood-curdling stare in with yours."

Not only is the Wicca/Pagan thing a peeve, but for me so is the Stonehenge/'Celtic' thing......*is peeved *

Making assumptions about BCE peoples is kind of like digging up dinosaurs. What we KNOW is limited by what happened to be preserved, what we ASSUME to fill in the cracks needs to be noted.

It seems extremely likely that Stonehenge was not built by 'Celtic' peoples--they were migratory tribes way out in the west of Europe when it was constructed. The peoples that lived there undoubtedly left their genetic and religious imprint in the mix obtained when the 'Celts' roamed in, and it seems likely that the 'Celts' found Stonehenge compelling(who doesn't?) and stirred it into their belief-stew.

Archeological and folk-loric evidence exists to indicate strongly that the Gaeltech peoples in the British Isles area celebrated the Quarter-Days (that is the non-solstice and equinox holidays) from pre-Roman times till now. 2 thoughts occur to me:
1) The Quarter-Days are Fire Festivals, and would leave more archeological evidence, be reported by outside reporters as memorable, and (because they tie into agrarian seasonal ritual) be preserved as folkloric practices.
2)However, it's hard to imagine celebrating a day halfway between 2 solar occurances without also being aware of/celebrating the solar occurances. So I do imagine it. If, however, the celebrations were not communal (for example if the Mid-Winter was the day to get together with family and have big dinner) they would be less likely to leave dinosaur bones for the future. Also (possibly because those days were more familial, solomn, or non-agrarian) the early Xian Church replaced them with Church Holidays (Xmass, Easter, StJohn's Day, Thanksgiving) and subsumed the folk memory into the practices of the church.

I am never-Wiccan and I celebrate all the 8--the more the better, I say!

, skilly-nilly

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Saoirse Aiyana

Skilly-Nilly I agree with your assesment. It makes a lot of sense. But seeing as we have little evidence that the actual people celebrated the solstices and equinoxes, I tend to leave it out of my practice. Now, I do recognize the solstices and equinoxes as they come, and spend some time reflecting on them, but I don't really do anything to celebrate them per se because of the lack of evidence.

I also wonder if perhaps the solstices and equinoxes were more likely to have been 'celebrated' by the Druids but not the everyday people. That makes sense really, at least to me. The solstices and equinoxes wouldn't have been as important to the Celtic peoples if you think about the fact that the four fire festivals were all focused on the growing seasons.

This is the way I look at it:

Imbolc was important because it's when the land came back to life. Plants started returning, lambs were born, etc. Beltaine was really the beginning of their growing season and when they took the animals back down to the summer pastures. Lughnassadh was when they first began to harvest the 'fruits of their labor.' In this case literally. And Samhain signalled an end to the cycle, when they must hole up again for the long winter, bring the animals in, and have all the crops harvested by. These all make sense as things to celebrate.

The solstices and equinoxes make far less sense. They were important to the everyday person only in that they were used to determine when their season began. They didn't seem to hold any special significance themselves, other than marking the 'midpoints' or as prgonosticators. So why would they bother celebrating the day?

I fully believe that the days were acknowledged and probably honored by the druids. But not your average person. Since my practices revolve around that of the everyday person, not the clergy, I prefer to leave the solstices and equinoxes out. For me it is enough to know when they are and possibly do a small rite to recognize them.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Heathen Dawn:

They don’t have 8 holidays spread symmetrically across the year. AFAIK the Celts have only Samhain, Beltane and Lughnasadh. The other five come from other sources (eg Yule from Roman Saturnalia). Having all the eight as standard is Wiccan.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

skilly-nilly

They don’t have 8 holidays spread symmetrically across the year. AFAIK the Celts have only Samhain, Beltane and Lughnasadh. The other five come from other sources (eg Yule from Roman Saturnalia). Having all the eight as standard is Wiccan.

No matter what one thinks about the Equinoxex and Solstices, 'Celts' definatively without question absolutely celebrate/d Imbolc!!! Your OPINION my be that they only celebrated the 3 you pick, but anthropological research does not agree with you.

AFAIK? , skilly-nilly

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

skilly-nilly

I also wonder if perhaps the solstices and equinoxes were more likely to have been 'celebrated' by the Druids but not the everyday people. That makes sense really, at least to me. The solstices and equinoxes wouldn't have been as important to the Celtic peoples if you think about the fact that the four fire festivals were all focused on the growing seasons.



Very true Placing the Solstices and Equinoxes (I always wonder if it should be Equinoi ) requires astrological observation and record-keeping that is, for example, unavailable to me and, I assume, unavailable to the average BCE bog-trotter as well. However, tracking the agrarian year is like breathing to the agrarist, eh?

I just like holidays---skilly-nilly

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Rockprincess

Saoirse and Skilly..wouldnt' the druids (the spiritual leaders of the clans), have pointed out to the people that it was time for the next celebration?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Heathen Dawn

Why do people get so worked up? Even if it were my uninformed opinion, that’s a reason to get angry? Jesus H Christ...

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Saoirse Aiyana


Saoirse and Skilly..wouldnt' the druids (the spiritual leaders of the clans), have pointed out to the people that it was time for the next celebration?


Well it seems likely that the official calendar was 'kept' by the Druids, and thus they would have been the ones in the know as to the actual dating of the festivals. But that doesn't mean that the average person didn't have their own way of tracking the year and knowing approximately when the festival would fall. Like skilly-nilly pointed out, as agriculturists they should have their own way of tracking the progression of the agrain year as it was very important to them. Of course, I fully admit that I don't know the actual answer, and have of yet not seen anything to give me an exact answer. It would be nice if there was a pat answer to all our questions, but when deaing with the Celtic cultures, there just isn't in most cases.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Isil Darkmoon

HD: I think people are getting "angry" at your "uninformed" opinion because even after people who have done the research have stated what are the *commonly accepted* facts nowadays, you're insisting that they're all wrong and your answer is right.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter what was done in 'the old days' for this conversation. People are out and out saying "I'm not Wiccan, but in my modern faith, I celebrate all 8 holidays" yet your'e insisting "no, only Wiccans do that" when they've given first-hand statements to the contrary.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Saoirse Aiyana

No matter what one thinks about the Equinoxex and Solstices, 'Celts' definatively without question absolutely celebrate/d Imbolc!!! Your OPINION my be that they only celebrated the 3 you pick, but anthropological research does not agree with you.

AFAIK? , skilly-nilly


True, however the Coligny Calendar actually has nothing signiffying Imbolc, whereas the other three fire festivals are clearly marked. But seeing as the tablets were found in Sequanni territory along the banks of the Seinne this merely supports the theory that the Gauls didn't celebrate Imbolc, not that all of the Celts didn't. Archaeology and history certainly show to us the Gaelic (Irish, Scots, and Manx for those who don't know) did in fact celebrate Imbolc.

I'm curious if Nantanos, who knows much more about the Gauls than I do, knows anything about whether or not the Gauls did celebrate Imbolc or something like it. I may have to poke him to get his input.

Furthermore, I wonder if we should create a new thread for this topic. We've diverged far from the original intent of Nallia's post and I don't think it's very kind of us to continue to hijack her thread.

Skilly, I like holidays too. Yule is one I definitely don't think I could give up, or Midsummer. The Equinoxes don't affect me as much, but I very much love the Solstices. I jjust don't include them in my religious celebrations.

[Athena-Nadine]

This post from the other thread probably fits too. :)

hey, nallia. this is quite off-topic, but i just have to ask: what are the helenic celebrations like? and when? something i've always wondered.
http://www.geekjello.com/images/smilies/ponder.gif
Oh, my. There are so many; where do I begin? http://www.geekjello.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif In this, it seems to be a lot like the Kemetic festivals; but then, the Greeks were greatly influenced byt he Egyptians, so it would make sense.

The festivals follow the Attikan calendar (see Festival Calendar (http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/6670/doc/fest.html) for a list), which follows the Lunar Year. A specific day every month belongs to each god. There are so many that every day is dedicated to one or more of Them! There are also other festivals (see Cycle of Festivals (http://sponde.com/GeneralFestivalCycle.html)). There is a festival of family, a festival for your patron god, a festival to honor the dead...

[Athena-Nadine]

Okay, since there might be people who will miss out on this conversation since it evolved from Nallia's string of Pagan doesn't equal Wiccan, I thought I'd move it here. I took the liberty of posting the pertinent posts here with proper credit given so people know what we're talking about. Hope ya'll don't mind.
And can I tell you how awesome you are for copying all of this? :colorful:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

This post from the other thread probably fits too. :)


Oh, my. There are so many; where do I begin? http://www.geekjello.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif In this, it seems to be a lot like the Kemetic festivals; but then, the Greeks were greatly influenced byt he Egyptians, so it would make sense.

The festivals follow the Attikan calendar (see Festival Calendar (http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/6670/doc/fest.html) for a list), which follows the Lunar Year. A specific day every month belongs to each god. There are so many that every day is dedicated to one or more of Them! There are also other festivals (see Cycle of Festivals (http://sponde.com/GeneralFestivalCycle.html)). There is a festival of family, a festival for your patron god, a festival to honor the dead...

Oops, sorry I missed that. Thanks for bringing it over.

And can I tell you how awesome you are for copying all of this? :colorful:

:lol: Thanks, but you're right this is probably better off in it's own thread. Might get more attention that way. And it's an interesting debate to boot. :graduate:

[mothwench]

This post from the other thread probably fits too. :)


Oh, my. There are so many; where do I begin? http://www.geekjello.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif In this, it seems to be a lot like the Kemetic festivals; but then, the Greeks were greatly influenced byt he Egyptians, so it would make sense.

The festivals follow the Attikan calendar (see Festival Calendar (http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/6670/doc/fest.html) for a list), which follows the Lunar Year. A specific day every month belongs to each god. There are so many that every day is dedicated to one or more of Them! There are also other festivals (see Cycle of Festivals (http://sponde.com/GeneralFestivalCycle.html)). There is a festival of family, a festival for your patron god, a festival to honor the dead...

thanks for posting those links! :D there's an artemis festival on my birthday, i'm chuffed.

saoirse, :yourock: thanks for copying all this, we really need a thread to discuss the differences and similarities of our festivals.
okay... is it too early to ask a new question yet? :T i wanna know about times of divination whithin the different trads. as far as i can tell this is one of the big differences between the two i'm interested in, celtic and germanic/norse: time for divination in most celtic reconstruction paths is around samhain, am i correct? whereas asatruars look out for certain signs and signals in the time that follows yule. one similarity though: in both traditions, i read of these being the times of the "wild hunt", respectively, and i was wondering, was there really a wild hunt in the belief of both cultures, or is this just misinformation or a mixup? if it is, then it's quite a common one.

[Kadynas]

Very true Placing the Solstices and Equinoxes (I always wonder if it should be Equinoi ) requires astrological observation and record-keeping that is, for example, unavailable to me and, I assume, unavailable to the average BCE bog-trotter as well. However, tracking the agrarian year is like breathing to the agrarist, eh?

Actually it's not unavailable to you with the internet or a good ephemeris! :) As an astrologer, I use the celestial timing for the festivals; tghe astrological degree of the Sun. Ostara - 00 Aries (NOT 01; degrees in astrology are counted from 0-29 for a total of 30 for each sign... Ms. Ravenwolf lists it both ways in her latest book, perpetuating the confusion), Beltaine - 15 Taurus, Summer Solstice - 00 Cancer, Lughnassa/Lammas - 15 Leo, Mabon/Fall Equinox - 00 Libra, Samhain - 15 Scorpio, Yule/Winter Solstice - 00 Capricorn. The Solstices and Equinoxes are usually listed with a good amount of accuracy on normal calendars as being the first day of their respective seasons. The symbolism comes from these signs (Aries, Cancer, Libra & Capricorn) being Cardinal signs, they initiate things, in this case the seasons. Fixed signs (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius) represent the height of their season at its full force. The ones that don't get any festivals (Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces) are the Mutable group, and are the transition from one season to the next... It may start to feel like summer in Gemini, but by the time Cancer rolls around it's generally official. During Gemini you still see some flip-flops where it's not quite spring anymore and not quite summer yet. I take exception to Summer Solstice being called "Mid-Summer" - and astrologer's pet peeve if you will. :lol:

As for the bog trotters, some of them must've been able to figure it out pretty well to leave me with a system that works so well so many years later. :)

[skilly-nilly]

Saoirse Aiyana
True, however the Coligny Calendar actually has nothing signiffying Imbolc, whereas the other three fire festivals are clearly marked. But seeing as the tablets were found in Sequanni territory along the banks of the Seinne this merely supports the theory that the Gauls didn't celebrate Imbolc, not that all of the Celts didn't. Archaeology and history certainly show to us the Gaelic (Irish, Scots, and Manx for those who don't know) did in fact celebrate Imbolc.

I'm curious if Nantanos, who knows much more about the Gauls than I do, knows anything about whether or not the Gauls did celebrate Imbolc or something like it. I may have to poke him to get his input.



I don't know hardly anything at all about Gauls, so I didn't know this either! Just goes to show that one 'Celt' isn't much like another after all :hehehehe:

Even people who celebrate mainstream holidays have favorites and others they mostly skip---Imbolc is MY favorite, so I did get a little toooooo defensive about it.

:chattin: I bow to your technical aptitude as well, skilly-nilly

[skilly-nilly]

Actually it's not unavailable to you with the internet or a good ephemeris! :) As an astrologer, sadly this is a foreign language I don't speak at allyou still see some flip-flops where it's not quite spring anymore and not quite summer yet. I take exception to Summer Solstice being called "Mid-Summer" - and astrologer's pet peeve if you will. :lol:

As for the bog trotters, some of them must've been able to figure it out pretty well to leave me with a system that works so well so many years later. :)


What I meant was that if someone left me alone in the wilderness, I would not be able to figure it out in any way but vaguely. "Look!" I would say, "Here comes the Sun traveling back again! How neat!"

I DO rely on other references to tell me exactly when because I can't do it on my own. It's not like the growing season.

I'm sure that some of those bog-trotters could do what I cannot--nontechnological, then as now, doesn't mean stupid.
(Actually, I don't think I'm stupid; I'm just tone-deaf and disnumeric--yes they're connected.)

I'm confidant that the Druid Priests could compute, store, and correlate that information. And that they would tell the growers and makers where the year was, if they were in the vicinity. I don't think they always were, though; people were thin on the ground in the edges of the Isles, especially in the rocky treeless Western parts. Irish folklore reflects an intense interest (almost approach/avoidance) in 'the stranger' which, to me, indicates how rare strangers were. The laws of welcome and hospitality also reflect this, imo.

I call the Summer Solstice The Longest Day, myself :sunny:

Acceptable to an astrologer?, skilly-nilly

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I don't know hardly anything at all about Gauls, so I didn't know this either! Just goes to show that one 'Celt' isn't much like another after all :hehehehe:

Even people who celebrate mainstream holidays have favorites and others they mostly skip---Imbolc is MY favorite, so I did get a little toooooo defensive about it.

:chattin: I bow to your technical aptitude as well, skilly-nilly

No need to do that...all I did was copy and paste. :)

I PMed Nantanos, so hopefully he'll poke his head in and help us out here on this topic.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Mothwench or aefentid, since we're on the topic of festivals and sharing info. Think you care to shed some light on the Norse and/or Germanic festivals that we may not know?

[mothwench]

:boing: i'll bite!

:D yule :elf:
as i mentioned before, this is the time of year where the veil between our world and the underworld is thinnest. similar to celtic samhain, it's the best time for divination.
i'm going to translate something from a collection of austrian folklore tales. it's all extremely christianized, so you have to try and read between the lines. in any case, you don't have to read everything, i put the bits i deem relevant in bold type.

the rauhnächt (left untranslated as meaning is unknown.)
the ?-nights or under-nights are the nights from the eve of st. thomas (dec. 21) to january 6, for some from christmas eve to january 6.
one the eves of st. thomas, christmas, the new year and the three kings (dec. 20, 24, 31, and jan. 5) people smoked out (smudged) all the rooms of the house with incense and sprinkled holy water around them, to bless them and banish witches and evil spirits. for the under-nights are the nights when ghosts and spirits freely walk the land.

when the people come home after the procession (? -no idea is meant by this) all kneel down in prayer, after which the men hold their caps, the women their headscarves over the smoke-pot (censer?) and then quickly put them on their heads. this is supposed to ward off headaches and any other illnesses to the head. everything in the house is blessed, even the dust on the floor. this must not be thrown away, but scattered on the fields to protect from haunting. during the under-nights one must not spin, otherwise you spin thread for hertha the high witch, so she can catch folk with it and take them away. during the under-nights the trees are said to mate. the wind ---(some verb i don't recognize here, sorry)--- them to the roots, so that they may fertilize each other. then next year there will be much fruit.

in the under-nights the brave and courageous can find out about the occurances of the following year, by practising something called losen or lisma (a word that stems from lauschen, which means to lurk, to eavesdrop). one can do this lisma on crossroads, cemetaries, at streams, under black cherry trees, plum trees, wild plum trees and red cherry trees.
the chanting of magic spells while shaking the trees is reminiscent of the shaking of rune-staves accompanied by rune-speech (galdr???) or perhaps it is done to stir the roaring wind-god.

if you want to lisma, you must do the following: do not pray for nine days prior to the under-nights, do not take holy water. in the evening, when the church bells ring, you must walk to a crossroads, without speaking a word, and without turning around. if you turn around an invisible hand will smack you across the face so hard it will leave a five-finger mark on your face. more than one person may go to lisma together, but the number must be an odd one. do not let yourself be frightened by anything, do not run away, else the evil enemy will gain power over you.

then the lisna (person doing lisma) will see and hear things by means of devilish magic, clues of what may happen the following year. if he hears music, it means a wedding. crying or praying is an omen of death. the direction from where the sounds are coming and where the shapes are seen is an indication of whom it concerns.

in some regions, young girls call out three times the question of who they might marry. they must wait for some clue to answer their call. if they hear a gun shot, it will be a hunter. a cart would be a carter, a creaky fence a farmer, etc.
:elf: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- :elf:

the paralels i see with celtic samhain are as follows:
-it's not a one-day festival, it goes on for a number of nights, usually 13.
-ghosts and spirits, and protection measures against these in folklore
-scrying practises
-the new year

as i said at the beginning, this is a mix of pagan and christian folklore and i do believe the original heathens celebrated the new year at the solstice.

for clarification and comparison of what yule might have been like for the original heathens, here's an interesting article about yule from my new found favourite norse heathenry site, woden's harrow. (link to main: http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/asatro.html )
yule article: http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/yule.html

this article also has an interesting theory about the origins of santa claus and attributes him to odin. i'm not sure i agree with that one, but it's an interesting read.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Ohhh, thanks for all the information mothwench.

That's a really interesting technique for divining. Maybe you should try it this yule and tell us how it goes? :smile:

[mothwench]

i'll do that, if i'm feeling brave. :lol:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Well then I expect a twenty page essay on it, after the new year. :bad:

[aefentid]

That was a great article Mothwench :) .

In America a generic Asatru calendar looks something like this:

Disting -31 January Ostara-21 March

Walburgis-30 April Midsummer-21 June

Freyrfaxi-31 July Haustblót-23 September

Winter Nights-31 October Yule-21 December

It's really kind of headache inducing, the average Asatru group in America is generally focused on Scandinavian/Icelandic practices, but they still celebrate dates like Ostara that are Anglo-Saxon/continental. There are also modern holidays like Freyrfaxi and Thorsblot, which is around January 12. Certain holidays most notably Disting are celebrated at different times by different groups some celebrate it during Yule, others around the end of January, and some celebrate in the middle of Febuary.

I don't think this happens as much in Europe or at least in Scandinavia/Iceland, the Heathens I know of from those areas tend to stick with the dates, names, and folklore from the area they live in. Mothwench, do you know if the Heathens in Germany stick with local festivities, or do they do the pan-Germanic thing that we tend to do in America.

Personally, I'm switching over from being a generic Heathen to Anglo-Saxon Heathenry so my calendar is changing. I'm mostly using information from Bede's De Temporum Ratione.
Anglo-Saxon Heathenism has an article about it:
http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/bedescalendar.html

The Ealdriht also has a page on Anglo-Saxon holy tides, which includes some interesting folklore, it's also definitely more modernised than the first article
http://www.ealdriht.org/tides.html

in frith,
Æfentid

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

So Æfentid, what are some of the main differences between Anglo-Saxon worship/festivals and Icelandic/Scandinavian? You mentioned your calendar is changing, were the dates given those of the more Icelandic/Scandinavian type of worship, or the ones to which you are switching? And what are some of the main sources for Anglo-Saxon information? Do you use the Eddas as well, or do they only apply to Icelandic/Scandinavian modes of worship?

The first site you linked looks really interesting. I did some poking around, and it looks like it has a lot of info. Very simply put together too, not full of 20 page long articles that you have to print just to read. :lol: I found it really interesting that they worshipped in groves and practiced well and tree veneration. Sounds very much like the way Celtic speaking peoples worshipped. That and they seem to hold animistic beliefs, again much like the Celts. I will have to read more on it.

Haven't had a chance to read the second article you linked, but I've bookmarked it as well and will definitely read it.

Edit: I just thought of another question. What about the Danes, was their worship in accord with Icelandic/Scandinavian methods or Anglo-Saxon. Or was theirs different also?

[aefentid]

So Æfentid, what are some of the main differences between Anglo-Saxon worship/festivals and Icelandic/Scandinavian?The differences really depend on the group, some Anglo-Saxon groups celebrate in pretty much the same way as the Scandinavian/Icelandic groups, with the only real difference being the terms used during the blot or symbel, like the might say Ing Frea instead of Freyr and use Anglo-Saxon phrases instead of Old Norse ones. Other Anglo-Saxon groups use a lot of what was historically known and any folklore known about the festival. To me the latter type of celebration is much warmer and alive than the usual blots, that can in some groups be rather sterile and ritualistic.

You mentioned your calendar is changing, were the dates given those of the more Icelandic/Scandinavian type of worship, or the ones to which you are switching?The dates I gave were generic Asatru, those were primarily Scandinavian/Icelandic with a couple of modern Asatru festivities thrown in, such as Freyrfaxi. I also don't think Ostara was celebrated in Scandinavia or Iceland, although I have heard that Sweden had a holiday much like Walburgis around the date of Ostara. One of the biggest differences between the various calenders is when the various agricultural based holidays are celebrated, for example spring celebrations would be earlier for Anglo-Saxons and their harvest celebrations would be later. I'm just starting to put my own calendar together so I'm not quite sure how it will end up.

And what are some of the main sources for Anglo-Saxon information? Do you use the Eddas as well, or do they only apply to Icelandic/Scandinavian modes of worship?Here's a quote from the Ealdriht that explains some about the sources we use :

Modern Anglo-Saxon Heathenry is not and cannot claim to be an authentic reconstruction of the ancient religion. The myths of its Gods it owes in a large part to the Norse Eddas and the Dane Saxo. Other beliefs have been reconstructed from comparison to the Icelandic sagas, and many of its traditions are drawn from later English folklore. Modern Anglo-Saxon Heathenry is therefore a synthesis of many Germanic traditions and beliefs that have been interpreted using the best scholarship in modern Germanic Heathenry. Despite this, it never can or will be the ancient religion. Still, what survived of the Anglo-Saxon Heathen beliefs is being followed by many in the Americas and Great Britain. And while it is not exactly as the ancient religion of the Jutes, Saxons, and Angles was, it captures the spirit and soul none the less.

http://www.ealdriht.org/history.html

There really isn't much primary information on Anglo-Saxon Heathenry except Beowulf which isn't even about Anglo-Saxons, and of course there were plenty of rantings against Heathenry by early converts to Christianity, which ironically enough is where a lot of us get our information. It also helps that a lot of the Christian poetry from that time period is full of Heathen imagery. We're also lucky enough to have two books written by Anglo-Saxon Heathenry by Heathens, one of them is by one of the founders of the Ealdriht and the other is by the founder of Theodish belief, which is the oldest Anglo-Saxon group, it dates back to 1976.
There are also plenty of scholarly books about the Anglo-Saxons, their religion, and later folklore. Here's a reading list from the Anglo-Saxon Heathenism page, http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/recreading.html



Edit: I just thought of another question. What about the Danes, was their worship in accord with Icelandic/Scandinavian methods or Anglo-Saxon. Or was theirs different also?I'm really not sure, but if I had to guess I would say they were probably more like the Scandinavians in their worship.

in frith,
Æfentid

[mothwench]

That was a great article Mothwench :) .

In America a generic Asatru calendar looks something like this:

Disting -31 January Ostara-21 March

Walburgis-30 April Midsummer-21 June

Freyrfaxi-31 July Haustblót-23 September

Winter Nights-31 October Yule-21 December

It's really kind of headache inducing, the average Asatru group in America is generally focused on Scandinavian/Icelandic practices, but they still celebrate dates like Ostara that are Anglo-Saxon/continental. There are also modern holidays like Freyrfaxi and Thorsblot, which is around January 12. Certain holidays most notably Disting are celebrated at different times by different groups some celebrate it during Yule, others around the end of January, and some celebrate in the middle of Febuary.

I don't think this happens as much in Europe or at least in Scandinavia/Iceland, the Heathens I know of from those areas tend to stick with the dates, names, and folklore from the area they live in. Mothwench, do you know if the Heathens in Germany stick with local festivities, or do they do the pan-Germanic thing that we tend to do in America.

well, i'm a member of an asatru site, http://www.eldaring.de/content/index.php and they have a wheel of the year quite similar to the one you described above. but at yule we were discussing the raunächt, so i guess most of them use the pan-germanic practises as a main guidance and incorporate the local practises.

Personally, I'm switching over from being a generic Heathen to Anglo-Saxon Heathenry so my calendar is changing. I'm mostly using information from Bede's De Temporum Ratione.
Anglo-Saxon Heathenism has an article about it:
http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/bedescalendar.html

The Ealdriht also has a page on Anglo-Saxon holy tides, which includes some interesting folklore, it's also definitely more modernised than the first article
http://www.ealdriht.org/tides.html

in frith,
Æfentid
:) thanks for those links, anglo-saxon heathenry is something i wanted to look at, too. still need to get my head round the basics of heathenry in general though. can't wait for that class to start :D

LOL mòrag. in between the MW herball, all my artsy fartsy projects... yeah, i'll whip up a 20-page essay :lol:

[Galaxia]

Ω

[Nantonos]

No need to do that...all I did was copy and paste. :)

I PMed Nantanos, so hopefully he'll poke his head in and help us out here on this topic.

Yeah I was out of town last week with next to no internet access. I got back and found I had been multiply poked in absentia.

OK I am checking my sources. I suspect the answer will be both longer and less specific than you had hoped....

[Nantonos]

Saoirse Aiyana

True, however the Coligny Calendar actually has nothing signiffying Imbolc, whereas the other three fire festivals are clearly marked.

Where did you read that the other three were clearly marked?

The most likely structure from the Coligny calendar is a two-season year.its possible (ie disputed, but argued both for and against) that Samhain and Beltane are represented, as Samon and Giamon (month names, but with festivals in them around the 17th of the month).

But seeing as the tablets were found in Sequanni territory along the banks of the Seinne

In Sequanni territory yes - which is not near the Seine. The rivers Saone or Doubs, yes.

this merely supports the theory that the Gauls didn't celebrate Imbolc, not that all of the Celts didn't. Archaeology and history certainly show to us the Gaelic (Irish, Scots, and Manx for those who don't know) did in fact celebrate Imbolc.

Yes, they did. There is no particular evidence that other celts (Gaulish, British, CeltIberian, Danube Celts such as the Eravisci, and Galatians) celebrated all or even some of these.

Due to the late date of the Irish material, its also not clear whether these festivals came from a previous Celtic calendar or came from Roman practice (eg via the Roman church).


I'm curious if Nantanos, who knows much more about the Gauls than I do, knows anything about whether or not the Gauls did celebrate Imbolc or something like it. I may have to poke him to get his input.

Sorry I wan't around. Consider me thoroughly poked.


Furthermore, I wonder if we should create a new thread for this topic. We've diverged far from the original intent of Nallia's post and I don't think it's very kind of us to continue to hijack her thread.

This is true, although moving part of a thread seems difficult.

[Nantonos]

Ok I posted some photos of the actual Coligny calendar if anyone is interested. One overview and two detail shots.

http://epona.net/gaulish/coligny00.jpg

Sorry about the angle, I was trying to avoid reflections on the actual lettering.

http://epona.net/gaulish/coligny01.jpg
month of Samon, plus month of Ogron

http://epona.net/gaulish/coligny02.jpg
month of Cvtios plus parts of Ogron and Elembiv

[mucgwyrt]

Woooo Lisma sounds funky-chikin.
Not sure I'd want to try it without someone to hold me hand though :hairraise

"when the bells tole" - would that be midnight then, or...?

[mothwench]

hmm... good question. :lol: they sound every hour here. :rolleyes: but i would assume, they mean at the time of mass when everyone is in church. i'd have to find out when that is though. how'm i gonna do that? :huh:

:D cool photos, nantonos.

[mucgwyrt]

hmm... good question. :lol: they sound every hour here. :rolleyes: but i would assume, they mean at the time of mass when everyone is in church. i'd have to find out when that is though. how'm i gonna do that? :huh:

:D cool photos, nantonos.

Yeah... and I imagine current Mass celebrations are different to old ones. Would your local priest know when Mass used to be way-back-when?

[mothwench]

:huh: he might... but i'd be too chicken to ask. :lol: oh, i know who could tell me... i use to work in a museum where this old monestary stood, (http://www.kloster-lorsch.de/kloster/kloster.html :D ) and i'm still pretty chummy with the curator. in fact, it's high time i paid him a visit. :steppy:

[mucgwyrt]

Wheeey :steppy: :steppy: :steppy:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Where did you read that the other three were clearly marked?

The most likely structure from the Coligny calendar is a two-season year.its possible (ie disputed, but argued both for and against) that Samhain and Beltane are represented, as Samon and Giamon (month names, but with festivals in them around the 17th of the month).

In Sequanni territory yes - which is not near the Seine. The rivers Saone or Doubs, yes.

Obviously, I found a bad website. I'll have to see if I can find it again. Because it said both that Samhuinn, Beltuinne, and Lunasdal were clearly marked and that the Sequanni were located near the Seine.


Yes, they did. There is no particular evidence that other celts (Gaulish, British, CeltIberian, Danube Celts such as the Eravisci, and Galatians) celebrated all or even some of these.

Due to the late date of the Irish material, its also not clear whether these festivals came from a previous Celtic calendar or came from Roman practice (eg via the Roman church).

Yes, but it was my understanding that when recording pre-Christian material, that the monks were fairly true to history. It also seems unlkely that they would have fully created a holy day in honor of Saint Bridget, someone who was sainted only because they could not dispel her worship, unless there was need to remake current celebrations in the guise of Church-sanctioned events.

However, it is certainly possible, and would make even more sense when you consider that some people believe that Lunasdl and the funerary celebrations in honor of Lugh's foster mother Tailtu at that time, were also a later post-Christian addition to the calendar.

Not to mention that there is no evidence, that even though we refer to Imbolc and Lunasdl as fire festivals, that fires were lit on the hilltops at this time as happens at Beltuinne and Samhuinn. It is however possible that the association with these two festivals with fire came about for different reasons. It is suggested that the Imbolc is considered a fire festival due to it's association with Bride, who it has well known connections with fire. Lunasdl's connection to fire may come from the funerary pyre's lit for Tailtu.

Sorry I wan't around. Consider me thoroughly poked.

Eeeep! I completely missed this response. How rude of me to poke you, and then not respond.

This is true, although moving part of a thread seems difficult.

Ha! But you see I did it. It was just a bloody pain in the arse copying and pasting everyone's responses. :tongueout

[mucgwyrt]

:huh: he might... but i'd be too chicken to ask. :lol: oh, i know who could tell me... i use to work in a museum where this old monestary stood, (http://www.kloster-lorsch.de/kloster/kloster.html :D ) and i'm still pretty chummy with the curator. in fact, it's high time i paid him a visit. :steppy:

It's in German :wah:

[mothwench]

yeah, but the piccies are neat! :spinner: and you can have fun with one of those incredibly accurate online translators! wheeeee! :boing:

[blueangel]

Do the online translators really work? I was always told by my German teacher that they aren't as accurate as one might think... or perhaps it was an idea to prevent us from running off and trying to cheat on our coursework!

[mothwench]

:lol: no. they're horrible. i was only kidding when i said incredibly accurate. sorry, i should have posted a winkie smilie. it's hard to hear the sarcasm in a post. ;)