Plug-and-play Gods and GOddesses?

[Revelation]

How many times have you heard, "What god should i use for a healing spell?" or "What goddess would be good to use for a money spell?" People ask these questions the same way they would ask what color, scent, or herb to use in a magical working. But the gods are not tools! Why do we encourage people to "use" the gods and goddesses as though they were simply tools to be used at our beck and call? And furthermore, why do we think that a god that we have no personal relationship would nother to aid us at all?

If you believe in many deitiies, how do you personally feel justified calling upon a deity that you have no personal relationship with? For example, if you have never forged a relationship with, say, Artemis, how do you feel justified calling to her for help with a specific problem? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to ask for the help of whatever god or goddess you personally have a reltionship with rather that the god or goddess who suppsedly "rules" whatever you need help with?

And for those who do not believe in multiple deities, why do you use specific names at all? If you don't have a relationship with any specific "face" of the Divine, why bother calling upon Dionysus, or Kali, or Pan, or Inanna? When we do this, aren't we really just relegating the names and identities of the gods to common tools, mere instruments for our magical undertakings?

Does anyone else have a problem with people "using" the gods as tools? What is your opinion on the idea of "plug-and-play" deitiies?

[Myst]

Pan over to me who has a very physics related practice. To me divinity is energy. There isn't some all knowing all seeing guy in the sky (or anywhere else for that matter). However, if I want to access, say, wisdom and the opportunity to find more of it and retain more of it, I might ask Athena to assist me. Why? Well some believe the big reason why we have names for Gods at all is because it's easier for us to relate to them - Gods and their aspects with names, then to relate to the raw energy itself. Thus, I say Athena but I use the name to mean "wisdom energy" and I'm using her name and her archetype to access it. To me this Goddess of myth exists as an archetype that helps me relate to the energy associated with that archetype. The archetype becomes a mind key for focusing on my intent, just like colour, smell, or any other mind key.

Another example is Hecate. Recently I've been very drawn to her energy and archetype. To me this means the energies she represents are very important at this time of my life, and focusing on that archetype helps me focus on that energy and how it can help me. Does she really exist on any plane? Possibly. And probably if I come to work with her for a long period of time I'll be able to work better with the energies she represents, thereby in human terms I'd build a rapport with her. A lot of people when performing a spell will ask the help of their patron deities as well as the deities pertinent to the intent to keep the rapport strong.

Just my 2 cents :)

[Lavender]

Yeah, what she said! :D

[bloodstone20]

I see them all as being apart of the Unknown God (The All). So really, I am just asking(With the example of Athena) For A knowledgeable aspect of The All to help me.

[Revelation]

All right. And do you feel that it might be demeaning to those who actually *do* believe in separable entities to call upon a deity that you don't have a relationship with? (in their point of view).

And, since y'all brought it up, if you believe in the All, why break it up like this anyway? Isn't a plea to the Divine just as reasonable?

[bloodstone20]

Everyone else does. Peer presure, you see.

Jk, of course. The All is everything, everyone, alive or dead, or undead in some cases. (jk) And it was already broken down. It makes it easier for us. So instead of asking for The All endlessly, we ask for different aspects of The All to help us. And notice how i avoided using he or she in my post. Well, ruined it now, but whatever.

[Armitage]

Hmm...I just never liked the terminology 'using'. Sounds very demeaning. 'Calling' or 'asking to participate' would be nice. They're not dried herbs or candles...They're deities!

[Myst]

Originally posted by Revelation
All right. And do you feel that it might be demeaning to those who actually *do* believe in separable entities to call upon a deity that you don't have a relationship with? (in their point of view).

And, since y'all brought it up, if you believe in the All, why break it up like this anyway? Isn't a plea to the Divine just as reasonable?

I don't know, do you find it demeaning that that's how I work? I don't see why, it's just my beliefs and I'm not saying yours are wrong. I don't think the Gods are offended, else they wouldn't be answering my calls :)

On the note about using the term "using" - I can understand that. I don't "use" them as much as "call on them" or "invoke their energies". To offset this I spend time meditating and give offerings to the deities (or energies that help bless me, if you prefer) such as incense or the new vanilla candle I bought today to thank whatever Powers that Be that helped me ace my exam and pass that course.. :)

[Revelation]

I don't know, do you find it demeaning that that's how I work?

Nope, just a question. Bouncing ideas off walls, you see :)

[Happydog]

I was kind of chosen by Isis so I stick with her. I guess I lucked out, because Isis is pretty much in charge of everything as far as I can figure out! ;) (PLEASE nobody take offense!!)

I generally try to stick with calling upon and working with Isis at this point in my development. I have asked Diana/Artemis for help with my problem dog, very respectfully, and I have worked with Bast in dealing with my cats (yes, I know she's not specifically just the Goddess o' Kitties, but we were having problems). Boy, does that sound all "white light," or what...yeesh.

Anyway, other than these two exceptions I work with Isis pretty much exclusively.

I think if people want to work with a variety of gods and goddesses, that's fine, but from what I have read you have to be careful who you decide to work with. I'm not one of those people that is comfortable with the idea of all gods and goddesses being One. Many of them seem to have distinct personalities.

For example, the Voudoun deities are really very assertive about their identities, and some of them can be quite jealous and tricky. I wouldn't recommend, for example, attempting to combine them with other deities outside of their culture. The Orishas are very real personalities with their own way of doing things, and very odd things can result. They generally aren't, um, "compatible" (agh, I hate the way that sounds!) with other deities. Things go bang, sometimes quite literally. (That sounds like a tall tale but I have heard this from trustworthy people who have had direct experience with the Orishas.)

This is all just my opinion, though, so "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." :)

[Myst]

Good point, Happydog. In particular people have to be careful with Kali, Lilith, the Morrigan, et cetera. I primarily work with Greek deities and usually ones that get along in myth. I think that's the safest thing to do :)

[Mairwen]

Be careful? But why? :rolleyes:

Mari
who feels the Morrígan gets a bad rap.

[Dria El]

It does bug me but it seems to not bother anyone else so whatever...

[mol]

Now wouldnt this be...

plug-n-pray ?

[Myst]

No, sweetie, that's Windows devices...

;)

[Dria El]

Originally posted by mol
Now wouldnt this be...

plug-n-pray ?

hehe

:p

[Mairwen]

:rotfl:

[Hamelyn]

Someone made the point that it was already split up and I suppose, you know, that does make sense when I think about it. If the Divine is reflected in all, working from that theory, it has already been divided amongst living things and inanimate objects millions upon millions of times over. As most people perceive the world in this state, rather than a state of conjoined fragments, I assume it would just be more natural to take an individual rather than just toss a prayer up. (It's also easier to make an effective ripple in a bathtub than in, say, the ocean).

Of course, personally, I tend to lean towards a mix of aspects with real individuals. The Gods are real to me... after a fashion. It's strange because I make a point of not discounting any Pantheon. Big American Gods influence going on, mixed with some huna research... bah. *chuckles* Anyways, I don't much care for the term using either; it sounds horribly arrogant to me. But I think it's just semantics for most people... few people who say using (like the first response to this, given by... someone I can't remember (God I suck at names!)) really mean it in an insulting way.

[Rain Gnosis]

It's funny how much beliefs change - I wrote a lot of posts here as Myst. I still think deities are probably archetypes, and yet I've totally changed my opinion as to borrowing from other cultures! Anyone interested in this might check out Amberlaine's article on borrowing from other cultures (http://www.mothersmagic.net/theology/CA.html). I also just wrote a long journal entry summarizing some of my thoughts, so I'll repost it here.


To be honest, I never thought twice about picking and choosing from other cultures until I took the new members class at Per Ankh. Therein we sought to immerse ourselves in the Kemetic culture so as to view the Netjer through the worldview of the Kemetics themselves. To understand fully the Gods of that culture, we needed to try to live within that culture (as much as possible).

I was raised without religion and with ancestry from all over the place - it never occurred to me that I didn't have a culture or why I would want one, until I got into Kemeticism. A culture is more then X God = Y Correspondence, but arises from the values, principles, beliefs, and lifestyle of a community. That the Kemetics, for instance, existed in a place where the rise and fall of the Nile and the rising of the sun each day were paramount to existence, and in a time so long before the technology we take for granted today, made them an entirely different culture.

Today, to pick and choose Netjer willy nilly without immersing oneself in the culture is not only perhaps detrimental to the self, but disrespectful to the culture. The ethics and Gods of Egypt were part of what made the Egyptians who they were - the myths of the Gods are what made them who they are. We all are familiar with that "family recipe" that is an integral part of a loving family who has grown together and created traditions - perhaps enjoying that special "family recipe" only at holidays, seated around a table, where forever you'll remember the smell of food cooking, your mother's laughter, your baby cousin running around, etc.

The "family recipe" is a non spiritual example of something that is unique to your family and part of who you are; something that reignites memories of your past and the love your family shares. Most of us would say our Gods are even more profoundly part of our souls then that special "family recipe" pie, and yet most of us don't realize when we borrow Gods from a culture, we are as good as stealing someone's secret family recipe without even trying the pie first.

My intention is not to tell people how to practice, what to borrow from, or how to do it. I'm not saying don't borrow - I'm saying, reflect on what you're doing, and why you're doing it. Try to see the other side of the story. Understand that, to people who have a culture they love and feel is a unique part of their soul, you might be grabbing part of their Self and repackaging it until no one remembers what it originally looked like.

People should stop to think about how they borrow things - did you join that family for holiday dinners, participate in their traditions, understand why they love that pie? Or did you just steal a slip of paper from them with ingredients listed on it; just a tiny part of the beauty and pleasure of both the pie and the people who created it? Why not create your own pie?

And if you wanted a chocolate cake rather then a pie, why insist on stealing that family pie recipe and telling everyone it's a cake? Just because pies and cakes are both desserts, does that mean pies are cakes? That gwynyth, lilairen, and amberlaine, and all the other women I know are part of All Women does not mean you can call amberlaine Rain and expect her to answer. Even when one believes all Gods are part of One God, that doesn't mean Jesus is Zeus and Rain is amberlaine or gwynyth or anyone who is Goddess/female.

If you believe all Gods are one God, why not create a God that does fit your needs rather then trying to make someone's family pie recipe into a chocolate cake? Not because you have to, but because it'll probably work better and won't upset them.

[Athena-Nadine]

Thank you for this, Rain. This is what I have been trying to get across to people for years now. The biggest difference I can see now between your thoughts on deity and mine are that I am a true polytheist. ;)

And because it was such a good post, it bears repeating:

…. Today, to pick and choose Netjer willy nilly without immersing oneself in the culture is not only perhaps detrimental to the self, but disrespectful to the culture. The ethics and Gods of Egypt were part of what made the Egyptians who they were - the myths of the Gods are what made them who they are. We all are familiar with that "family recipe" that is an integral part of a loving family who has grown together and created traditions - perhaps enjoying that special "family recipe" only at holidays, seated around a table, where forever you'll remember the smell of food cooking, your mother's laughter, your baby cousin running around, etc.

The "family recipe" is a non spiritual example of something that is unique to your family and part of who you are; something that reignites memories of your past and the love your family shares. Most of us would say our Gods are even more profoundly part of our souls then that special "family recipe" pie, and yet most of us don't realize when we borrow Gods from a culture, we are as good as stealing someone's secret family recipe without even trying the pie first.

My intention is not to tell people how to practice, what to borrow from, or how to do it. I'm not saying don't borrow - I'm saying, reflect on what you're doing, and why you're doing it. Try to see the other side of the story. Understand that, to people who have a culture they love and feel is a unique part of their soul, you might be grabbing part of their Self and repackaging it until no one remembers what it originally looked like.

People should stop to think about how they borrow things – did you join that family for holiday dinners, participate in their traditions, understand why they love that pie? Or did you just steal a slip of paper from them with ingredients listed on it; just a tiny part of the beauty and pleasure of both the pie and the people who created it? Why not create your own pie?

And if you wanted a chocolate cake rather then a pie, why insist on stealing that family pie recipe and telling everyone it's a cake? Just because pies and cakes are both desserts, does that mean pies are cakes? That gwynyth, lilairen, and amberlaine, and all the other women I know are part of All Women does not mean you can call amberlaine Rain and expect her to answer. Even when one believes all Gods are part of One God, that doesn't mean Jesus is Zeus and Rain is amberlaine or gwynyth or anyone who is Goddess/female.

If you believe all Gods are one God, why not create a God that does fit your needs rather then trying to make someone's family pie recipe into a chocolate cake? Not because you have to, but because it'll probably work better and won't upset them.