Oy!

[Kaylara]

I was speaking to a young seeker today. He wanted to know if there was a religion that was fun, and not very hard. It makes me sad to know that there are people out there who want to get something for nothing out of religion. What are your experiences with this?

Kaylara

[Mairwen]

Yup. Ellen Cannon Reed calls them "McPagans". :rolleyes:

[bloodstone20]

i like to call them stupid. They invoke Goddesses without knowing them or about them, or they don't cast circles.

[Mairwen]

Um. Dearheart. I'm a sometimes "don't cast circles" folk. :rolleyes:

[Yvonne Belisle]

I have yet to cast a circle even when I cast other things.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Mairwen
Yup. Ellen Cannon Reed calls them "McPagans". :rolleyes:

I use the term "Shake 'n' Bake" ... same thing ...

But some of these folks actually catch on and learn something ... that is the hope, ya know.

[Myst]

Reminds me of the "Spells R Us" shoppers - you know, the ones who come solely to ask you to cast a love spell NOW NOW NOW ITS IMPORTANT DON'T YOU REALIZE I LOOOOVE HIM, or they've been hexed... or they're broke.. or any combination of those and they "don't believe in this stuff so they don't think they could do the spell themself but they REALLY need someone to cast a spell for them"...... For Goddess's sake I'd rather see the "IRAB" (I Read A Book, so I know _everything_ about _every_Pagan_religion!!!) type then the Spells R Us type.

[Socharis]

Originally posted by Kaylara
I was speaking to a young seeker today. He wanted to know if there was a religion that was fun, and not very hard. It makes me sad to know that there are people out there who want to get something for nothing out of religion. What are your experiences with this?

Kaylara

I think that we have to deal with this due to the ever increasing popularity of Witchcraft in the media, such as buffy, charmed, and other such programs.

You are bound to get people that are just in it for the spells, but i think that is the price you have to pay to make Wicca popular, I think it is good for Wicca to be popular as it helps people to except us without thinking we are "Religiousless Heathens" or "Satanists".

Just my two bits worth :D

[Reeny]

Originally posted by Socharis


I think that we have to deal with this due to the ever increasing popularity of Witchcraft in the media, such as buffy, charmed, and other such programs.

You are bound to get people that are just in it for the spells, but i think that is the price you have to pay to make Wicca popular, I think it is good for Wicca to be popular as it helps people to except us without thinking we are "Religiousless Heathens" or "Satanists".

Just my two bits worth :D


I agree! Wiccans shout louder than any other pagans I have

known. On the net and in the media they are known above all

other pagans!

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by WillowRaven
For Goddess's sake I'd rather see the "IRAB" (I Read A Book, so I know _everything_ about _every_Pagan_religion!!!) type then the Spells R Us type.

Not me. I was dealing with an IRAB a while back. Made my July miserable. She was okay enough until I started giving her the real facts ~ all she could spout was BUT THE BOOK SAID! Give me a break. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's CORRECT.

[bloodstone20]

Those that do rituals without circles, ie, rituals where they invoke elementals, when they are supposed to be summoned, and try to Summon the Gods. Without a circle, to protect them from the doors that they open on the astral. Sorry if i offended you, but if someone want to skip something i consider vital in one of my rituals. My power is more focused when I cast a circle, and It feels much .... cleaner. JMO.

[Mairwen]

Well, while it may be vital to you, it's not vital to everyone. And calling others "stupid" for hving this viewpoint is quite rude. IMHO.

[Socharis]

Originally posted by Mairwen
Well, while it may be vital to you, it's not vital to everyone. And calling others "stupid" for hving this viewpoint is quite rude. IMHO.

I agree. quiet disrespectful

[eaglewolf]

Hey! McPagans are people too...

;)

~ew

[bluecat]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
Hey! McPagans are people too...

;)

~ew

Would you like some fries with that? :D :p

[Mooncrow]

and everyone their own path. I feel that the circle vs. no circle depends on what makes the practitioner comfortable. The circle is a tool used to create the best frame of mind for that person to meet with the Divine. But to tell someone that it's stupid not to cast one isn't just rude, it's intolerant, and I thought tolerance was something that we as Pagans needed to show, as many of the more "organized " religions preach tolerance but rarely give it.


BB

Mooncrow

[bloodstone20]

Have been literally attacked by something on the astral when something disappated my circle when i was invoking Kali. It brought excrusiating pain and i couldn't get it out at the time. it took me three tries to banish it. DUring that time i lost my tan, some of my hair fell out and i got scratches and bruises everywhere, from my head to my toes, i was taken away from my parents because my neighbor thought i was abused. Sometimes, during the middle of the night, I would just stop breathing, and have to be shaken awake. I had a seisure during this period, and my 20/15 vision changed to 15/20. I lost some of my hearing in my right ear. It took three people to banish the thing, whatever it was. Three tries. I don't even think we even did it, it decided to leave on its own. I have reasons for the things i say, and do.

[Yvonne Belisle]

A circle is not the only means of protection and unless you know all of them you can not assume that circle is the only safe way. There are many right paths and many ways of reaching the same goal. I am sure that if you were better aquainted with other means that you would understand that safety is practiced by those that do not use circles too. I have done many workings and never use circles I feel uncomfortable in them and out of touch with the higher beings. If you are uncomfortable you will not be safe in your working no matter what you cast first.

[bloodstone20]

I agree. There are other means of protection. I just used the circle to represent them all, which was wrong on my part.as long as you protect youself, i think its ok. But its those that take no steps to protect themselves that make me mad.

[Revelation]

To touch on the initial question here, it doens' tbother me that some people wnat a "simple" religion. There's nothing wrong with that. All you really *need* anyway is a relationship with the Divine--all the rest is convenient windo dressing. Not everybody is interested in the theology and philosophy--they just want a God they can depend on. Why is that stupid or immature?

[Myst]

I don't think the point is that they wanted something simple, but that they wanted something "fun" and "not hard", and not much else. Religion is supposed to be life affirming... it doesn't have to be complicated... but if the only things you're looking for in a religion are "fun" and "not hard" I have to wonder...

Did someone say that was stupid or immature?

[Myst]

Originally posted by bloodstone20
Have been literally attacked by something on the astral when something disappated my circle when i was invoking Kali.

I hate to be the one to tell you but playing with Kali is not always the safest thing to do. She doesn't bring happy bunnies or fluffy clouds, that's for sure, and the dark energy she's associated with could've brought along with it some nasty energy. Sorry, I got off topic.... :)

[Revelation]

Originally posted by WillowRaven
I don't think the point is that they wanted something simple, but that they wanted something "fun" and "not hard", and not much else. Religion is supposed to be life affirming... it doesn't have to be complicated... but if the only things you're looking for in a religion are "fun" and "not hard" I have to wonder...

Did someone say that was stupid or immature?

There isn't anything wrong with looking for a religion that is "fun" and "not hard". I think we need to get off our high horses.

Kaylara said it was sad.

Bloodstone said it was stupid.

The mcPagan comment isn't exactly flattering.

to my mind, "simple" and "not hard" are pretty closely related. Are we going to play semantic games?

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Revelation


There isn't anything wrong with looking for a religion that is "fun" and "not hard". I think we need to get off our high horses.

Kaylara said it was sad.

Bloodstone said it was stupid.

The mcPagan comment isn't exactly flattering.

to my mind, "simple" and "not hard" are pretty closely related. Are we going to play semantic games?

I found no fault with any of these opinions. There is no High Horse to be on unless a person creates it.

I thought the McPagan comments were an attempt to add a bit of humor to something that could have gotten out of hand very easy.

I recall semantics games from other threads, they are silly and tend to have one or two people talking down to others. I honestly don't think that was the intent here.

Bloodstone also apologized in a later post. Let's not get hung up on things again, it gains us nothing and only serves that which divides.

I am not speaking as a Moderator, I am speaking as MYSELF.

Thank You

BlueCat :cool:

[Revelation]

PErhaps there is no fault with these opinions.

There is also no fault for wanting religion to be fun and easy.

[eaglewolf]

I wish brain surgery was fun and easy...

...I hear neurologists make a ton of money.

I sure could use a new Ferrari!

Just tryin' to be funny...

;)

~ew

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by WillowRaven


I hate to be the one to tell you but playing with Kali is not always the safest thing to do. She doesn't bring happy bunnies or fluffy clouds, that's for sure, and the dark energy she's associated with could've brought along with it some nasty energy. Sorry, I got off topic.... :)

Well, you have to remember that we're not all fluff bunnies, and that there should be a balance in all things. You can't go through life seeing only the light. With light and life comes darkness and death.

and

Darkness doesn't always have to be evil.

[Mooncrow]

Brain surgery IS easy, successful brain surgery on the other hand......



BB

Mooncrow

[bloodstone20]

Originally posted by WillowRaven


I hate to be the one to tell you but playing with Kali is not always the safest thing to do. She doesn't bring happy bunnies or fluffy clouds, that's for sure, and the dark energy she's associated with could've brought along with it some nasty energy. Sorry, I got off topic.... :)
Many have said that. I've worked with Kali for about 2 years now, next Samhain. I dedicate myself formally to her, and The Dark Goddess on the Next Dark of the Moon.

[bloodstone20]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Well, you have to remember that we're not all fluff bunnies, and that there should be a balance in all things. You can't go through life seeing only the light. With light and life comes darkness and death.

and

Darkness doesn't always have to be evil.
Hear Hear and WORD!
I am about the farthest thing from a fluff bunny. I don't follow the read, altho i do follow the three fold law.

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by Revelation
PErhaps there is no fault with these opinions.

There is also no fault for wanting religion to be fun and easy.

Ok, here's my personal opinion on this...

Every religion is hard work for those who follow it... If you want to be in a religion, and not learn anything about it, not work for it, and only reap the benefits, then you are not in it for the real purpose of the religion. Many important lessons that I have learned from religion and life were not because they were *easy or fun*. Life is hard, religion is no different. People who want something for nothing are fooling themselves...

Kaylara

[Mairwen]

EXCELLENT!

[Revelation]

Originally posted by Kaylara


Ok, here's my personal opinion on this...

Every religion is hard work for those who follow it... If you want to be in a religion, and not learn anything about it, not work for it, and only reap the benefits, then you are not in it for the real purpose of the religion. Many important lessons that I have learned from religion and life were not because they were *easy or fun*. Life is hard, religion is no different. People who want something for nothing are fooling themselves...


*shrug* I disagree.

Religion doesn't have to be anything more that one's relationship with the Divine. It certainly* can* be more, and from what you're saying, it sounds like for you it *is* more, but that doens't mean it necessarily has to be that way.

Why does religion have to be "hard work"? I dont think it does. Depending on one's view of the Divine, his relationship with that entity, the moral codes that are taught within his chosen path and the amount of dedication necessary to follow that path, a given religion *can* be *Very* simple for those who follow.

I don't think there's anything particularly difficult about my religion, because who I am is so completely meshed with my faith, that I"m not bendig over backward to make my religion"work". It works because its who I have always been. My religion is "fun and easy", and I defy anyone to tell me differently. Furthermore, I get a hell of a lot out of my religion. My religion affirms my dedication to preservation of my community, it provides me with a network and a framework for me to work the Will of the Goddess as I see it, and it affirms my identity as a self-recognized manifestion of the Divine.

Just because religion might be difficult for *some*, it isn't that way for all of us. It's not a "something for nothing" arrangement simply because it's "fun and easy". Many artists, writers, engineers, etc. would assert that for *them*, their craft is easy. They have been gifted with certain talents that make what they do second nature. (And I'm going out on a limb here and guessing they probably find their crafts fun, too). Those that are lucky enough to get paid for their craft certainly wouldn't submit that they get "something for nothing". THeir craft is ertainly something. And simply because it requires "effort" doesn't mean it is "difficult" for them. Religion is the same way. It might require a bit of effort--that doesn't mean that it is "difficult". Or, hey, it might not require any effort. It might be so natural to the practitioner that they needn't eve recognize living their religion as something apart from his everyday existence.

Now there's something to think about.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Revelation


*shrug* I disagree.

***

Just because religion might be difficult for *some*, it isn't that way for all of us. It's not a "something for nothing" arrangement simply because it's "fun and easy". Many artists, writers, engineers, etc. would assert that for *them*, their craft is easy. They have been gifted with certain talents that make what they do second nature. (And I'm going out on a limb here and guessing they probably find their crafts fun, too). Those that are lucky enough to get paid for their craft certainly wouldn't submit that they get "something for nothing". THeir craft is ertainly something. And simply because it requires "effort" doesn't mean it is "difficult" for them. Religion is the same way. It might require a bit of effort--that doesn't mean that it is "difficult". Or, hey, it might not require any effort. It might be so natural to the practitioner that they needn't eve recognize living their religion as something apart from his everyday existence.

Now there's something to think about.

Fine, then allow a person to have their own opinions on a matter without being better or showing how smart one can be.

This thread is becoming very testy and seems to have become an exercise in how much more a certain person thinks they know. That is not the purpose here. We should be sharing ideas and opinions and not trying to make people think that if they don't agree they are wrong.

Let's get back to the sharing.

Blue

[Revelation]

*boggle*
Bluecat, *what* are you talking about?

I'm not being testy. Jesus, have an opposing viewpoint and people want to go ballistic.

I never said Kaylara was wrong. I said I disagreed with her. I'm sharing *my* opinion. What, is there no room for us blokes who think religion is fun and easy? I already submitted that other viewpoints are valid. So is this one. Just because I'm not being conciliatory doens't mean I'm trying to start a fight.

I daresay there are other seekers on this board who are looking for a religion that suits them, that they don't have to "work too hard for". I offer my opinion to validate those feelings. Why is that wrong?

I cannot help but feel that you are *looking* to make my comment into much more than it is. I'm not bashing, I'm not trying to be cute or smart, I'm just presenting another way of looking at a situation. Dont go looking for insults or condescencion where it isn't there. This is just one guy's viewpoint. Take it at face value--there is no hidden meaning, malicious or otherwise.

[bluecat]

Perception is an important thing. How a person sees what is being said can influence how they feel about what the statement is saying. Perhaps placing an emphasis upon certain words or phrases sounds a bit out of place. Perhaps *some* people feel as if they are being picked on for having a different opinion. Do you understand what I am saying?

It's time to share opinions without sounding like one opinion is more important than another, that is all I am asking.

Becoming defensive never made what someone is saying any more correct and neither does feeling or wanting to be seen as being picked out for having a point of view.

After all, brain surgery is easy. The surgery was a complete success, but the patient expired.

Blue

[Revelation]

Perhaps *some* people feel as if they are being picked on for having a different opinion. Do you understand what I am saying?



I think I see what you're saying.

When I say *some* people, I don't mean "*some* people (ie YOU)" I mean, "*some*people (ie some as opposed to all)"

It wasn't meant to be snide or cruel or uppity. I just meant to stress the fact that not everyone saw things that way. That's all.

[Sunday's Child]

I think that religion and spirituality are getting mixed up in here.

What is Religion?

What is spirituality?

[Kaylara]

That would be a good topic for another thread, if you would like to start one. :)

I think that you also misunderstood the initial post that I made. This person wants to "become" pagan, but doesn't want one that involves studying, or working for it at all... We're talking 0 effort. And he has no idea what a pagan is to begin with, or what any of the paths are... He has done no research... And he has no idea what he is doing... I think that you would agree that someone should at least learn what the religion is before they become a member of it...

Kaylara

[Revelation]

Yes. I would agree with that.

THat's just not what your original post said ;)

[Kaylara]

I'm sorry, I should have elaborated more in the inital post...

:)

Kaylara

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Revelation
Yes. I would agree with that.

THat's just not what your original post said ;)

Um, not to be snitty, but, yes, that is what it said, too.:rolleyes:

[Kaylara]

In all fairness, I didn't word the initial post clearly enough to express the full situation... So, I can understand to a point the misunderstanding... In any case, with the clairfied situation, what is your opinion on this kind of individual?

Kaylara

[Myst]

Refer back to my other post. This isnt' a religion to get into if you're looking for "easy", IMHO. I spend a lot of time reading, researching, and practicing - even meditating, reflecting, or taking time to plant flowers are ways to connect with our beliefs.

[Mairwen]

I'll put it this way. I went so far as to putting the line "This isn't a path for wimps" on our group's webpage.:rolleyes: