PDA

View Full Version : Thirteen reasons why Jesus, if he were here today, would be a Witch



Dria El
July 30th, 2001, 07:20 AM
Thirteen reasons why Jesus, if he were here today, would be a Witch (http://www.jcwitch.com/)

by Carl McColman, author of Embracing Jesus and the Goddess

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No single one of these reasons prove the Witchiness of Jesus; but taken as a whole, they make for a compelling case.

1. Jesus criticized the hypocrisy and legalism of the religious status quo, and chose to embrace an alternative spiritual path. Matthew 23:1-36. In Jesus' day, the religious establishment included the Pharisees and Sadducees, dominant factions in first century Judaism. Jesus' alternative path followed the radical teachings of his mentor, John the Baptist. Nowadays, in Europe and the Americas the status quo is mainly Christianity; the path of the Goddess -- Wicca -- is one of the most compelling of available spiritual alternatives. Many people who embrace Wicca have the exact same criticisms of Christianity that Jesus is said to have had about the religious establishment in his day. Hypocrisy, legalism, blind obedience of the rules to the point of ignoring spiritual values like love, trust, and freedom -- these are the problems Jesus attacked in the official religion in his day, and that many Wiccans today see in the religious status quo of our time. Perhaps Jesus, were he here today, would join Wiccans in criticizing mainstream religion and trying to find an alternative way.

2. Jesus was a psychic healer. Luke 6:19; John 9:1-12. Luke comments that "all in the crowd were trying to touch him, for power came out from him and healed all of them." And John recounts how Jesus made a magic healing paste by mixing his saliva with soil from our Mother, the Earth. For Jesus, healing was a central part of his spiritual identity. Witches, likewise, rely on herbal wisdom, natural foods, and psychic practices like reiki to bring healing and comfort to themselves and their loved ones. Sadly, the Christian religion rarely encourages its followers to take responsibility for their own healing, but rather colludes with a medical establishment that keeps people passive in regard to their own wellness. Jesus the healer has much more in common with Wiccan healers than with church-going "patients."

3. Jesus acknowledged the divinity within each person. John 10:34-36. All he was doing was quoting the Psalms, but Jesus emphasized it: "You are gods." Throughout the Bible, Jesus uses mystical language to illustrate the essential unity between humanity and divinity. How sad that the church founded in his name lost that sense of human divinity, and has instead stressed the "fallenness" and "separation" that keeps humanity alienated from the divine. Incidentally, this is an indirect affirmation of Goddess spirituality, as well -- for if we are gods, as Jesus quoting the scripture insists, then both men and women partake of the godly nature; implying therefore that God encompasses both the masculine and feminine dimension of life. So the "God" whom Jesus worships incorporates both the God and the Goddess as revered by Wiccans.

4. Jesus lived close to nature. Matthew 8:20; Mark 1:12-13; 3:13; Luke 4:42; John 18:1. Jesus took a vision quest in the wilderness; he loved to pray in the mountains, slept in gardens, and made a point of telling his followers that he had no house to live in. Frankly, it's hard to imagine him driving an SUV or worshiping in an air conditioned church. If Jesus were here today, I suspect he'd live in an ecologically sustainable intentional community, and he'd advocate a sacred duty to the Earth with the same zeal which which he advocated care for the poor and the downtrodden.

5. Jesus believed in magic. Matthew 7:7-11. Only he called it prayer. "How many of you, if your child asks for a fish, will give them a stone?" "If you ask for it in my name, it will be done." Church-goers often see magic as different from prayer, because prayer is timid and uncertain: "Not my will, but thine." By contrast, magic assumes that the Divine Spirit loves us and wants to bless us in accordance with our highest desires. When Jesus prayed, he prayed with confidence, not timidity. And he taught his followers to do the same. Nowadays, magic may have fancy window dressing (light this candle, recite this incantation, etc.) but it still comes down to the same thing: making a request for spiritual blessing. Jesus' vision of prayer is like Wicca's vision of magic: it's based on trust and love, unlike the prayer of church religion, which is based on fear, self-criticism and self-doubt.

6. Jesus could command the weather. Matthew 8:23-27. Witches have a long-standing reputation for being able to conjure up storms and otherwise control the weather. Jesus, like any accomplished weather-witch, possessed a similar set of skills. He did this both actively (like when he calmed the storm out in the Sea of Galilee) and indirectly (as he was dying, he caused darkness to reign in the middle of the day).

7. Jesus had a profound relationship with the elements. Matthew 14:22-26; Luke 3:16; Luke 8:22-25; John 9:6. Jesus could walk on water; he could command the wind; he baptized with fire, and he used the soil of the Earth to make healing pastes. His spirituality was primal and grounded in the power of the elements. Modern-day Christianity is abstract, sterile, and anti-septic -- it is a religion of books, words, and mental concepts. But Jesus, like most modern-day Wiccans, found vitality in the energies of the natural world.

8. Like a shaman, Jesus could channel spirits. Mark 9:2-8. One of the most profound stories in the Bible is that of the transfiguration, when Jesus conjured the spirits of Moses and Elijah. To his followers, this demonstrated Jesus' authority as a spiritual leader. Later on, Jesus tells his followers that they will do greater works than his (John 14:12); ironically, though, Christianity does not permit its followers to invoke or conjure spirits. But invocation of benevolent spirits has been a part of shamanic spirituality since the dawn of humankind, and modern-day Witches follow in this shamanistic tradition when they Draw Down the Moon and the Sun, calling the spirit of Goddess and God into their Circles.

9. Jesus was comfortable with sensuality and eroticism. Luke 7:36-50. One night, while dining at a respectable home, Jesus received a sensuous foot washing from a woman, who used oil and her hair to wipe the teacher's feet. The host and the other guests were scandalized, but Jesus saw it as a perfectly lovely expression of affection and hospitality. In fact, when comments were made to Jesus, he responded by saying basically, "What's your problem?" Alas, the religion that bears his name has evolved into an erotically-repressed spirituality, more like Jesus' uptight host than Jesus himself. Paganism and Wicca, meanwhile, are spiritual systems that celebrate sensuality, sexuality, and the basic goodness of pleasure. Jesus, who got criticized for being a pleasure lover himself (Matthew 11:19), would no doubt be at home in Wicca's celebration of the goodness of nature and the body.

10. In his own way, Jesus practiced the Wiccan Rede. Matthew 5:21-22; Matthew 22:33; John 8:32. The core ethical principle in Wicca is the Rede: "If you harm none, do what you will." There's two components to this teaching: non-harm, and freedom. It's a basic principle; you have spiritual freedom, but not to the point of harming your self or others. Compare this to several of Jesus' teachings. Matthew tells us that Jesus was so committed to the principle of non-harm that he regarded the intent to do violence as bad as violence itself. Meanwhile, John quotes Jesus as saying "Truth sets you free." But what is the truth that sets us free? The truth of love, trust, healing, and divine grace; in other words, the universal truths that can be found in any spiritual path. The opposite of harm is love. "Harm none" is another way of saying "Love your neighbor as yourself."

11. In his own way, Jesus advocated Perfect Love and Perfect Trust. Matthew 5:48; Luke 6:32-36; Luke 12:22-34. John quotes Jesus as saying "Do not let your hearts be troubled" and "love one another as I have loved you." Throughout the Gospels, Jesus says "Do not be afraid." He suggests his disciples "become like little children" -- in other words, be trusting and open-hearted. It's such a simple message, and today Wicca embodies the spirit of perfect love and trust; indeed, traditional covens require the phrase "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" as a password to gain entry into circle. Christianity, meanwhile, preaches a message based on perfect anger and perfect fear: God is wrathful, and unless a person is fearfully obedient, he or she will be tortured for eternity. That's the opposite of what Jesus stood for. Love and trust leads to healing and liberation, whereas fear of judgment leads to depression and spiritual passivity.

12. His enemies accused Jesus of being under the influence of demons. John 8:48; John 10:20. It's an old tactic. When the people who have religious power want to dismiss their critics, they accuse the critics of being demonically possessed. That's what the Pharisees said about Jesus, and nowadays that's what the religious right says about Wicca. Jesus was someone who loved the average person on the street, but had little patience for religious bigotry and self-righteousness. No doubt Jesus would feel he has more in common with Wiccans than with the fundamentalists who attack them.

13. Jesus was killed, unfairly, for his "blasphemy." Mark 14:63-64. Thankfully, Wiccans nowadays don't get burned at the stake. But tens of thousands of people -- mostly women -- did get killed in Europe for the "crime" of Witchcraft. Even if these people weren't Witches, the fact remains: they were brutally murdered for religious reasons. Well -- so was Jesus. Modern day Wicca looks to the victims of the Witch burnings as heroes of the Goddess faith, just like Christians see in Jesus their own spiritual hero. Jesus, meanwhile, was the kind of man who would rather side against the killers and the executioners. Given the fact that, throughout history, far more Christians have killed Witches than vice versa, it's easy to see Jesus embracing the Goddess, working to heal her children, and calling those who bear his name to repent of their violence.

Alex
July 30th, 2001, 07:32 AM
I have mixed feelings about this site.

While it is cute, and likely to ruffle Christian feathers, it is somewhat misleading about the nature of the Craft. It also encourages the notion that one can be a Christian and a Wiccan simultaneously.

B*B*

ALex

MistOfTheSea86
July 30th, 2001, 09:48 AM
Alex teaches no discrimination, we try to let people lead their own paths without making them feel any less then what they are.

EasternPriest
July 30th, 2001, 09:55 AM
I have severe misgivings about this list. From my perspective, it largely misrepresents and misconstrues Jesus from both a historical and religious perspective.
There is no doubt he would have contact with modern witches, for Jesus shunned none. That does not translate into the potential for him becoming one.
This is the type of thing that occurs when you try to fit the past into a current paradigm, or make someones teachings conform to your own.

bloodstone20
July 30th, 2001, 10:00 AM
doubt that thsi could be what maight happen, but Jesus was a Rabbi, so one cannot assume he would even listen to the people with Power in Christianity. I think that Gnosticism (Sp?) would be more suited to him.

bloodstone20
July 30th, 2001, 10:05 AM
agree with EP. Look how radically we have changed since that time, and so much in the last years. I have no doubt that Jesus would except us. After all, the Bible(Goddess, I look at this more now then when I was a Christian) says that those who worship the Unknown God (The All) are worshiping God, and shall be saved. However, I find It rather idioctic to guess the actions of a man that lived two-thousand years ago, and to follow a book that has been written and re-written throughout time, so much that is has become the word of man, about 1/2 and 1/2 i would guess.
Just my 2 pents.

Illuminatus
July 30th, 2001, 10:08 AM
I agree with EasternPriest. You can't just copy and paste a historical figure into a modern time and declare what he "would be" under current circumstances. Personally, I think if it were to happen, Jesus would be the same fella he was back then: a cult leader-slash-social reformer.

What bothers ME is that whoever posted/researched that little list of 13 reasons, is clearly trying to justify their existance (and faith?) to God/Jesus, and I think too many people have already spent too much time on that pointless and futile task.

What's up with that? Can't you follow your own path without constantly looking over your shoulder?

- Illuminatus

bloodstone20
July 30th, 2001, 10:15 AM
Well, most of the time, you have to replace Wicca w/ Witchcraft, and Wiccan with Witch. :).

Originally posted by Alex
I have mixed feelings about this site.

While it is cute, and likely to ruffle Christian feathers, it is somewhat misleading about the nature of the Craft. It also encourages the notion that one can be a Christian and a Wiccan simultaneously.

B*B*

ALex

bloodstone20
July 30th, 2001, 10:17 AM
Your post is over the line. Please remeber to be tolerant, even if others aren't, on or off this community. Please remeber that Christianity is a good faith. And remeber to think before you speak. You don't want to offend anybody, and you probably did offend Erin and her dad. It seems you were saying that following God/Jesus was injustifiable. Maybe you worded it wrong?

Originally posted by Illuminatus
I agree with EasternPriest. You can't just copy and paste a historical figure into a modern time and declare what he "would be" under current circumstances. Personally, I think if it were to happen, Jesus would be the same fella he was back then: a cult leader-slash-social reformer.

What bothers ME is that whoever posted/researched that little list of 13 reasons, is clearly trying to justify their existance (and faith?) to God/Jesus, and I think too many people have already spent too much time on that pointless and futile task.

What's up with that? Can't you follow your own path without constantly looking over your shoulder?

- Illuminatus

Tigerwallah
July 30th, 2001, 10:31 AM
I tend to believe that Mary and Jesus were another incarnation of Isis and Horus, and then, hundreds of years later, found themselves as the main characters in a religion that was more political than spiritual. Again, my own personal belief.

The old trine or trinity was Mother, Father and Son/daughter. In order to change the dynamics the earliest Christians changed this to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The god, goddess, and reincarnated god have incarnated 10s of thousands of times. There is even a story of a god being crucified on a cross to open the gates of heaven from centuries before Christ. It is a strikingly similar story to the modern day version of Christ. I have to go to work now, but when I get home I'll look for it.

Wyrdsister
July 30th, 2001, 10:38 AM
Interesting list, for sure. I do think the author was very liberal in his interpretations of some of the Bible quotes he uses.

I don't think that, for me, this list provides the "compelling case" it states it does. Using this basic list, I'd say Jesus could also just as easily be a Ba'hai, a shaman, a hippie, a left-wing activist, or a member of any other group that the powers of the status quo named as wrong, evil, or "blasphemic." (q: is that even a word? :crazy:) While the list may prove (or provide a compelling case that) Jesus was indeed a social and religious reformer, I really don't think we can pin down exactly what spiritual path the man would follow.

But here's something: could we safely say he wouldn't be Christian, seeing as Christianity was based on stories of his own divinity? :eek: :D

Just a thought! :)

Wyrdsister

Danustouch
July 30th, 2001, 11:16 AM
Too bad this post wasn't in the Historical Jesus thread :)

Personally, as much as I like the basic sentiments of this article, I believe it is basically...not accurate. I have no other way of phrasing this.

They give little historical perspective when describing some of the events that occurred, such as Mary bathing the feet of Jesus. It was a common practice, to bathe the feet of a guest in your home. Usually, a slave was sent to do the task. But..at the home of the pharisees, Jesus was not offered this "common courtesy". Mary then performed the task for him, out of her great love for Jesus, going a step above and beyond what courtesy demanded. The reason that the Pharisee's objected to her behavior, was because she was a Prostitute. Not because she was bathing his feet. They were scandalized that he would have contact with a woman of her ilk. Not by the action she was performing. But Jesus, being the compassionate person that he assuredly was, saw her action as being of pure intent. And therefore, welcomed her action, with open arms, without regard to her "profession".

Another thing that bothered me, was that this article seemed to skip over the fact that many of the comments they outlined, were spoken Metaphorically. For instance.."Baptized with Fire". Did Jesus actually conjure fire to burn his initiates? NO! Jesus meant that the choice to follow him, the choice to give up those "sins" or "vices" that you were so attatched to, would be a painful process, one that is not easy. That is what is meant by "trial by fire"..so to speak. It is an ordeal.

Do I think that Jesus himself, had been initiated into other mysteries? Yes. Probably some Kaballah. But that's my personal take on the matter. Would he accept Wiccans, and love them? Yes. Would he condemn some of the Fundamentalists for their lack of love? YES. But does that make him Wiccan? NO. Jesus was his own person. He considered himself , a Jew. I see no reason why that would change, if he were to come again amongst us. He would be the same revolutionary he always was. A gifted healer, a prophet, a loving soul, a voice of reason. But...he would be no more Wiccan, than Kermit the Frog is a Rabbi. Just because he would share some of the principles of our faith, and probably agree with some of what we taught, and feel compassionate for us..and yes..probably stand up for us, against those who would persecute us. This does NOT mean that he would worship our gods and goddesses. Or that he would wear a pentacle, or in any other way shape or form, be Wiccan.

I fully appreciate Jesus for the individual that he was. I do not need to force him into my personal path, to see the wonderful person that he was.

mol
July 30th, 2001, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Illuminatus
I agree with EasternPriest. You can't just copy and paste a historical figure into a modern time and declare what he "would be" under current circumstances. Personally, I think if it were to happen, Jesus would be the same fella he was back then: a cult leader-slash-social reformer.

What bothers ME is that whoever posted/researched that little list of 13 reasons, is clearly trying to justify their existance (and faith?) to God/Jesus, and I think too many people have already spent too much time on that pointless and futile task.

What's up with that? Can't you follow your own path without constantly looking over your shoulder?

- Illuminatus

Why dont you ask the author: Carl McColman

bloodstone20
July 30th, 2001, 11:49 AM
I agree with you completely. I swear, we are not the only compassionate loving people in the world!

the herbwitch
July 30th, 2001, 02:29 PM
In my opinion, alot was probably left out of the Bible (like the Goddess part for one thing.) It was written by men for men.

But stanch Christians are so narrow-minded.....

Oh wow, don't get me started!!

love, the herbwitch

Kaylara
July 30th, 2001, 02:48 PM
Many Pagans are just as narrow-minded... Don't be fooled.

Kaylara

bloodstone20
July 30th, 2001, 03:11 PM
many Christians are just as open minded. Do people completely ignore Erin and Her Dad?? And most of the bible was written by woman, just edited by men, accroding to someone from a different thread.

Myst
July 30th, 2001, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus
I agree with EasternPriest. You can't just copy and paste a historical figure into a modern time and declare what he "would be" under current circumstances. Personally, I think if it were to happen, Jesus would be the same fella he was back then: a cult leader-slash-social reformer.

What bothers ME is that whoever posted/researched that little list of 13 reasons, is clearly trying to justify their existance (and faith?) to God/Jesus, and I think too many people have already spent too much time on that pointless and futile task.


Exactly!

My only statement on this, other then what you've already said, is "who cares"? :)

Illuminatus
July 30th, 2001, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by bloodstone20
Your post is over the line. Please remeber to be tolerant, even if others aren't, on or off this community. Please remeber that Christianity is a good faith. And remeber to think before you speak. You don't want to offend anybody, and you probably did offend Erin and her dad. It seems you were saying that following God/Jesus was injustifiable. Maybe you worded it wrong?


Injustifiable? Among other things. Why am I not allowed to suggest that? I know many here agree with that viewpoint. Sorry if I offended anyone, but I am trying to understand your viewpoints, and they are so many and so varried, there's really no other way then to ask some straight-up direct questions!

As for my post, more so I was hinting at the schism between christianity and paganism. I know many of you have the attitude that every pagan can believe whatever they want, and believe in whatever gods they want, including the judeo-christian one(s?), but that is hard for me to get a handle on. I mean, this is the faith that labeled you as "heathan" and persecuted and ultimately absorbed a lot of pagan beliefs to entice them to christianity.

This whole "jesus would be a wiccan" issue seems to me like the fellow who wrote/researched this had something to prove to christians.

bloodstone20
July 30th, 2001, 05:52 PM
I thought you meant that Christianity was unjustifiable. I could care less what people of other faiths call me. I think of the Virgin Mary as the Mother aspect, and could car less what other think of this.

EasternPriest
July 30th, 2001, 06:23 PM
It would be a completely seperate thread, but I would love to see the "proofs" of what was left out of, or written out of, the Bible. It is a very convenient thing to be able to say, sort of like a conspiracy theory, in that the accusations can never be proved, and the fact that they cannot be is part of the conspiracy.

Danustouch
July 30th, 2001, 07:33 PM
EP....dead sea scrolls? Gospel of St. Thomas? Ummm...Maccabees (which only some versions of the bible have, though admittedly...Before Christ)..etc.

There is a LOT of literature which was left out of the bible. But you'd have to go to the Vatican to read it. Much wad decided upon at the Council of Laodicea. And others. MANY "BIBLICAL" books were considered for the version of it that we have today...but...many were left out because they did not support the idea of the trinity, or of the Catholic Canon. This is at least, what my research has shown me.

Yvonne Belisle
July 30th, 2001, 07:59 PM
Personally I think the only times we have all the answers is when we are dead. There are hundreds of arguements out there and a few people are not going to be able to resolve or solve mysteries and opinions that have been around for centuries. Wars have been fought over such things and we are no closer to the whole truth today.

Rævyn Cigány
July 30th, 2001, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by EasternPriest
I have severe misgivings about this list. From my perspective, it largely misrepresents and misconstrues Jesus from both a historical and religious perspective.
There is no doubt he would have contact with modern witches, for Jesus shunned none. That does not translate into the potential for him becoming one.
This is the type of thing that occurs when you try to fit the past into a current paradigm, or make someones teachings conform to your own.

LOL! Why does your response not surprise me, EP? All this is saying is that the possiblility of Jesus being a 'natural witch" (if there is such an animal) exists, not to say outright that he is one...here's another log to throw onto the fire....Jesus plus his 12 Apostles equals 13: the traditional number of a coven!! EP I believe it's entirely possible that Jesus was 'witchy' but not just based on what this article says. I was raised Catholic and I'm just a little miffed in how Christianity today twists Jesus actual words in the Bible...not only was he NOT Christian, he was a JEW, and even to Jews of his time, he was flaky. Taking the Bible completely literally would be like following a cookbook to the letter when it says beat the eggs....you'd get an awfully messy kitchen! Jesus had so many good things to teach, and I think the one thing that he taught that has been completely lost in all of this is that you should 'love thy neighbour as thyself'...no matter what religion or creed or colour....

grrr...I'm rambling again aren't I? So sorry :(

BB

Rae )0(

EasternPriest
July 31st, 2001, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by bloodstone20
Your post is over the line. Please remeber to be tolerant, even if others aren't, on or off this community. Please remeber that Christianity is a good faith. And remeber to think before you speak. You don't want to offend anybody, and you probably did offend Erin and her dad. It seems you were saying that following God/Jesus was injustifiable. Maybe you worded it wrong?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Illuminatus
I agree with EasternPriest. You can't just copy and paste a historical figure into a modern time and declare what he "would be" under current circumstances. Personally, I think if it were to happen, Jesus would be the same fella he was back then: a cult leader-slash-social reformer.

What bothers ME is that whoever posted/researched that little list of 13 reasons, is clearly trying to justify their existance (and faith?) to God/Jesus, and I think too many people have already spent too much time on that pointless and futile task.

What's up with that? Can't you follow your own path without constantly looking over your shoulder?

- Illuminatus
**************************************************


Bloodstone---Thank you for your concern, but I took no offense. I take the questions presented not as an attack on Jesus or Christianity, but simply a way of asking why this person feels he needs to use Jesus to justify his own pagan path.

Blessings....

EasternPriest
July 31st, 2001, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Rævyn Cigány


LOL! Why does your response not surprise me, EP? All this is saying is that the possiblility of Jesus being a 'natural witch" (if there is such an animal) exists, not to say outright that he is one...here's another log to throw onto the fire....Jesus plus his 12 Apostles equals 13: the traditional number of a coven!! EP I believe it's entirely possible that Jesus was 'witchy' but not just based on what this article says. I was raised Catholic and I'm just a little miffed in how Christianity today twists Jesus actual words in the Bible...not only was he NOT Christian, he was a JEW, and even to Jews of his time, he was flaky. Taking the Bible completely literally would be like following a cookbook to the letter when it says beat the eggs....you'd get an awfully messy kitchen! Jesus had so many good things to teach, and I think the one thing that he taught that has been completely lost in all of this is that you should 'love thy neighbour as thyself'...no matter what religion or creed or colour....

grrr...I'm rambling again aren't I? So sorry :(

BB

Rae )0(

We each have our beliefs, but Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi...and believing the Torah he read growing up, he would not have been "witchy".

In his case there were 12 apostles, because there were 12 tribes in the Hebrew Nation. It's the same reason the "Star of David" has 12 planes - one for each tribe.

To the Jews of his time, he wasn't "flaky", but to those in power, he was potentially dangerous.

As far as twisting his words today, most paths in the modern world are guilty of that. The original post of this thread helps to prove that.

EasternPriest
July 31st, 2001, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Danustouch
EP....dead sea scrolls? Gospel of St. Thomas? Ummm...Maccabees (which only some versions of the bible have, though admittedly...Before Christ)..etc.

There is a LOT of literature which was left out of the bible. But you'd have to go to the Vatican to read it. Much wad decided upon at the Council of Laodicea. And others. MANY "BIBLICAL" books were considered for the version of it that we have today...but...many were left out because they did not support the idea of the trinity, or of the Catholic Canon. This is at least, what my research has shown me.

One of the problem with the arguement that much was "left out of" the Bible, is that there is no compelling proof these books were ever "in" the Bible. There certainly were many manuscripts extant at the time, but the fact that they are not part of the Bible proves no conspiracy. For instance, the "Gospel" of Saint Thomas was never a part of the Canon, and most current research indicates that the majority of the text is potentially fraudulant.

Maccabees, and the other "apocryphal" books are included in the Roman Catholic Bible, but are excluded in the Protestant Canon.
The Dead Sea Scrolls never were part of the texts considered for inclusion in the Canon of the Bible. By the time the Bible was set, those texts had long been hidden by the residents of Qumran. As an aside, the version of Isaiah found among the scrolls is vertually identical to the modern text.

Along with the Council you mentioned, you also have to include the Councils of Nicea and Trent for a complete perspective.

Actually, most of the "books" that were rejected are available today, I have two copies of the "lost books" in my library. No need to travel to the Vatican. Copies of the Apocrypha and The Psuedographical books are readily available.

Most of the books that were left out, were left out for reasons of textural criticism, or doubts about the authenticity of the manuscripts. These papers are worthy of reading because the illuminate the times, but that doesn't make them scriptural.

EasternPriest
July 31st, 2001, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by bloodstone20
And most of the bible was written by woman, just edited by men, accroding to someone from a different thread.

Actually, there were no women among the Temple Scribes.

Danustouch
July 31st, 2001, 09:33 AM
I was going to say something about the Council of Nicea..but what I learned of the council of Nicea, taught me that it's main concern was to deal with the heretic (whose name I've forgotten) who was preaching that there Was no trinity. Been a long time since I studied.

As for the council of Trent, Thank you..I will look into that again. Another thing that skipped my mind.

As for the women being scribes. I wholeheartedly agree, EP. I for one, would never make that assertion, because I'm aware of the role that women were given during Jesus Time. Most of them were not educated. Not the Jews at least. Because only Men were allowed to learn the Torah. So it wouldn't make sense, for women to have been the scribes. That's just what I've learned though.

bloodstone20
July 31st, 2001, 09:51 AM
Sorry, ignore me ... I didn't understand him, and neither did my best friend, who was there when I read it... Shes Christian, and thought he was saying the beileif in the Trinity was unjustifiable. so I typed that for her, not for you guys, but I remebered u and added you.

eaglewolf
July 31st, 2001, 09:52 AM
lmao!

I thought it would be 13 "one liners."

I'll read that list (small book) when I have more time... looks like an interesting subject.

~ew

Tigerwallah
July 31st, 2001, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by EasternPriest


Actually, there were no women among the Temple Scribes.

I have read works by a couple of prominent Jewish and Christian Bible scholars and there is speculation that out of the five people who wrote the old testament (there are five very distinct writing styles), one of them was indeed a woman. Jonathan Kirsch, a Biblical scholar wrote of the distinct possibility that a woman was one, or more, of those five authors.

Kirsch writes:

"The sacred texts of the Bible were probably under the guardianship of the priesthood of ancient Israel, a caste that was exclusively male. For that reason, Bible scholars have generally assumed that the Bible is a work of male authors and male editors. The Bible itself, however, offers some clues that suggest at least some of the Biblical text - including the most intriguing and influential passages -- were written by women."

It goes on and on to support this claim. This is from the book "Harlot by the Side of the Road." It is a fascinating book that studies the stories of the Bible that you will never hear in Sunday School or read in mass.

mol
July 31st, 2001, 10:31 AM
Interesting discussion everyone.

Ill put in my thoughts.

I dont think Jesus was a Witch. Although, Jesus performed some great works of Magick (And yes...from MY point of view thats what it was...). Jesus was Jesus. His Path defined him.

I think the big problem surrounding this discussion is that most have a different view on what a Witch really is...

With that said, I dont think Jesus would look down on being called a Witch...

MoonChild78
October 31st, 2003, 04:44 PM
well, i know alot of you may not have like it but i did. I am glad that i read it. thanks!

Kadynas
October 31st, 2003, 08:06 PM
many Christians are just as open minded. Do people completely ignore Erin and Her Dad?? And most of the bible was written by woman, just edited by men, accroding to someone from a different thread.
I've never heard anything about women writing the Bible... or parts of it for that matter... got any links to back this up? (Not saying it isn't true just because I haven't heard it, I'd just like to do some research. :) )

Kadynas
October 31st, 2003, 08:12 PM
I have read works by a couple of prominent Jewish and Christian Bible scholars and there is speculation that out of the five people who wrote the old testament (there are five very distinct writing styles), one of them was indeed a woman. Jonathan Kirsch, a Biblical scholar wrote of the distinct possibility that a woman was one, or more, of those five authors.

Kirsch writes:

"The sacred texts of the Bible were probably under the guardianship of the priesthood of ancient Israel, a caste that was exclusively male. For that reason, Bible scholars have generally assumed that the Bible is a work of male authors and male editors. The Bible itself, however, offers some clues that suggest at least some of the Biblical text - including the most intriguing and influential passages -- were written by women."

It goes on and on to support this claim. This is from the book "Harlot by the Side of the Road." It is a fascinating book that studies the stories of the Bible that you will never hear in Sunday School or read in mass.
That's interesting... but when we say five authors, do we mean old or new testament? Obviously the ones who wrote the Old wouldn't be around to work on the new! :lol:

true sadness
November 1st, 2003, 03:13 AM
well, i know alot of you may not have like it but i did. I am glad that i read it. thanks!

Me too...i thought it was very interesting... although I didn't take it seriously... The way the author 'quoted' jesus was quite a stretch... it was a humorous read.

Nighthawk
February 5th, 2004, 12:55 PM
Many Pagans are just as narrow-minded... Don't be fooled.

Kaylara

Most HUMANS are narrow minded. We sell it from our point of view so often, no? Good day

Sequoia
February 5th, 2004, 03:27 PM
Wow, this one got one heck of a bump!

Hmm. . . I agree that it's rather out of context to yank poor Jesus from his time into ours, and start saying "ooh, he would've been Wiccan. *nod*" I mean. . . Jesus was technially Jewish, wasn't he? But. . . aside from that. . . I think Jesus was a really awesome historical figure.

-_-; anyway I'm not going to get into the rest of it. Don't mind me guys, I don't know what I'm saying today.