"Traditional Witchcraft"

[Nemesis Descending]

[QUOTE=macha]The pentagram has little meaning for me, it is from the Quabbala./QUOTE]

Just a side note - The pentagram shows up in ancient Greece, and was a magical symbol used by a mystical sect of Pythagoreans. A cache of these rings was discovered in what is now Crotona, Italy. They date from around 525 bce. A detailed drawing of one of these rings appeared in a book titled Imagini degli Dei Antichi, written by V. Catari in 1647.

In Her service,
Nemesis Descending

[mothwench]

Just a side note - The pentagram shows up in ancient Greece, and was a magical symbol used by a mystical sect of Pythagoreans. A cache of these rings was discovered in what is now Crotona, Italy. They date from around 525 bce. A detailed drawing of one of these rings appeared in a book titled Imagini degli Dei Antichi, written by V. Catari in 1647.

In Her service,
Nemesis Descending
:idea:
yeah, i remember reading about the pythagorean pentacle. apparently they also attributed the elements to the four quarters, similar to wiccans but i think water and air were the other way round.
is that right, or did i read that off of a bs-website? i had been wondering about it since, but didn't find many more pages about it.
:huh:

[Nantonos]

[QUOTE=macha]The pentagram has little meaning for me, it is from the Quabbala./QUOTE]

Just a side note - The pentagram shows up in ancient Greece, and was a magical symbol used by a mystical sect of Pythagoreans. A cache of these rings was discovered in what is now Crotona, Italy. They date from around 525 bce. A detailed drawing of one of these rings appeared in a book titled Imagini degli Dei Antichi, written by V. Catari in 1647.

Interesting.

The pentagram is also found on continental celtic coinage dating from 150 to 50 BCE. Its not common, but its not rare either.

[Kern]

Question1)
If Trads will not teach others,unless its in person,then how will people learn that want to know?How can a person that is yearning to learn the old ways learn them if there is no one around to teach them?

Q2)
If Trads want discuss what the believe except with close friends then again how will others that desire to learn,learn.

Q3)
Isnt there a way that the beliefs and practices of Trad.Witchcraft(not the personal versions),but the main concepts.For instance,on rituals the guidelines or outlines could be taught,but leaving out the personal stuff and explaining that it can be done with what you feel comfortable doing and so and so.

[Nantonos]

The pentagram is also found on continental celtic coinage dating from 150 to 50 BCE. Its not common, but its not rare either.

As an example of these Celtic coins, see this Canti quarter stater with a horse and pentagram.
http://athens.arch.ox.ac.uk/coins/cwjul00.htm

scroll right down to the foot of that page, and there is another Celtic coin from the same area (modern Kent, England) again with a pentagram.

[Seren_]

Question1)
If Trads will not teach others,unless its in person,then how will people learn that want to know?How can a person that is yearning to learn the old ways learn them if there is no one around to teach them?

Q2)
If Trads want discuss what the believe except with close friends then again how will others that desire to learn,learn.

Like a lot of paths, witchcraft is an extremely personal choice and practise. The question is not necessarily "how can I know if people won't tell me", but "do I actually have the right to know?" Some people feel that as their path is a very personal choice, perhaps one that involves oaths, and that it might not be for everyone else.

For some people, their own practises are not necessarily something they feel should be written down and sold in a book, say, because sometimes words can't adequately express the point to some people (and yes, there are also oaths that might be involved as well). You can put a book down and pick it up, skim over a few paragraphs here and there...this is something you can't do on a face to face basis. Don't get me wrong, you can learn a lot from books, I don't know what I'd do without them. But experience comes from practice, not reading, and many trads will put great store in experience and practice, as well as knowledge.

And if someone wants to teach you, then you will more than likely develop a very close, personal relationship, and this is something that should not be entered into lightly. In the group I was involved with (Gardnerian, but I think the principles here are quite similar), I was expected to live with my teacher for at least a year as part of my training. Luckily we were good friends and I needed a place to live :D So it worked out well. But yes, finding someone to teach you can be difficult, and it can suck in the meantime.


Q3)
Isnt there a way that the beliefs and practices of Trad.Witchcraft(not the personal versions),but the main concepts.For instance,on rituals the guidelines or outlines could be taught,but leaving out the personal stuff and explaining that it can be done with what you feel comfortable doing and so and so.

Read, read, read. There are plenty of books out there that can help you. Look into cunning folk, the history of witchcraft, modern practise, folklore. If anything, it well help you develop a good bullshit detector if you do find someone who can teach you. Unfortunately not everyone is as honest as they should be. And it can be a hard slog finding your feet, but worth it.

[mothwench]

from kent... interesting. :smile: that's a pretty coin. :floating:


Question1)
If Trads will not teach others,unless its in person,then how will people learn that want to know?How can a person that is yearning to learn the old ways learn them if there is no one around to teach them?
i'm not sure, kern. i asked a similar (edited to add: hypothetical! ) question recently in a wiccan thread where people were discussing initiates and non-initiates, and there the answer was pretty much "if you're ready, then a teacher will come to you." (i was a bit :wtf: at this, it's just fyi.)

[Seren_]

i'm not sure, kern. i asked a similar (edited to add: hypothetical! ) question recently in a wiccan thread where people were discussing initiates and non-initiates, and there the answer was pretty much "if you're ready, then a teacher will come to you." (i was a bit :wtf: at this, it's just fyi.)

And/or if you ask them enough times and can show you're serious about wanting to learn through self-directed study, they might be more willing to take you on. But still, if they don't advertise, it can be difficult to even find them in the first place...not all groups are that active in the local pagan community, but that's always a good place to start looking.

[~Elise~]

Question1)
If Trads will not teach others,unless its in person,then how will people learn that want to know?How can a person that is yearning to learn the old ways learn them if there is no one around to teach them?

Q2)
If Trads want discuss what the believe except with close friends then again how will others that desire to learn,learn.

Q3)
Isnt there a way that the beliefs and practices of Trad.Witchcraft(not the personal versions),but the main concepts.For instance,on rituals the guidelines or outlines could be taught,but leaving out the personal stuff and explaining that it can be done with what you feel comfortable doing and so and so.


1. There are things that can not be taught except in person--that is a fact--if there is no one around where you are to learn from, then you'll have to find a different path until the circumstances change.

2. see #1

3. That is called grove studies in some trads...again, done in person. And--you have to mesh with the group. You can't just go joining a group willie-nillie. There are bonds that are established even during training that can not be broken. There are people out there that I just do NOT want to be tied to like that. You have to be very careful.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[Kern]

Like a lot of paths, witchcraft is an extremely personal choice and practise. The question is not necessarily "how can I know if people won't tell me", but "do I actually have the right to know?" Some people feel that as their path is a very personal choice, perhaps one that involves oaths, and that it might not be for everyone else.

For some people, their own practises are not necessarily something they feel should be written down and sold in a book, say, because sometimes words can't adequately express the point to some people (and yes, there are also oaths that might be involved as well). You can put a book down and pick it up, skim over a few paragraphs here and there...this is something you can't do on a face to face basis. Don't get me wrong, you can learn a lot from books, I don't know what I'd do without them. But experience comes from practice, not reading, and many trads will put great store in experience and practice, as well as knowledge.

And if someone wants to teach you, then you will more than likely develop a very close, personal relationship, and this is something that should not be entered into lightly. In the group I was involved with (Gardnerian, but I think the principles here are quite similar), I was expected to live with my teacher for at least a year as part of my training. Luckily we were good friends and I needed a place to live :D So it worked out well. But yes, finding someone to teach you can be difficult, and it can suck in the meantime.



Read, read, read. There are plenty of books out there that can help you. Look into cunning folk, the history of witchcraft, modern practise, folklore. If anything, it well help you develop a good bullshit detector if you do find someone who can teach you. Unfortunately not everyone is as honest as they should be. And it can be a hard slog finding your feet, but worth it.
Thanks!But are there not family traditions within Trad Witchcraft?And cant they teach someone the BASICS,not the personal matters?

[Kern]

"if you're ready, then a teacher will come to you." (i was a bit :wtf: at this, it's just fyi.)
Well I have been wanting this for a awhile!
I have felt a calling for yrs but never put much into it.Like I have said in previous posts,My gg grandmother was some sort of witch and from reading this

The Old Craft is emerging as a Path possessing a diverse array of aspects, ranging from the practical spell-craft generated at the level of folk-magic --the artes of wort-cunning and animal charming-- through a learned spectrum of magical techniques, reaching in apotheosis to the heights of genuine mysticism.
http://www.harvestmoon.net/library/chumbley/chumbley.html
Of which all could be done by her,Yes even the animal charming,both my grandmother and mother saw her put a spell on a mule one time and it stood in one spot all day,until she removed the spell.And as for the wart-cunning I seen my grandmother remove a wart as I mentioned also in a post.
I feel this is the type of Witchcfraft that she practiced.

[Kern]

OH MY!
I was just reading a story about Micheal on HSD SITE. My uncle once said :"when the Bible says Ask anything in my name and it will be answered,that it didnt say whom to ask God or Micheal?" I thought he was nuts or something and referring to Michael the archangel,who is this referring to on the HSD site?Who is this Michael?

http://www.traditionalwitchcraft.org/witchcraft/michaelstory.html

[Seren_]

Thanks!But are there not family traditions within Trad Witchcraft?And cant they teach someone the BASICS,not the personal matters?

It would depend on whether they see any difference between the basics and the more personal elements, I guess. I suspect the point is that many don't; and I can see their point, in a way. The basics are often the foundations upon which a tradition's practises are based. It might not involve the most complicated or earth-shattering wisdom, but will it be that relevant to you, if you only get half the picture? :whatgives

I've only met one person who claimed to be part of a fam-trad, and she was very private about her beliefs. She was also a member of a Wiccan coven, but what she was taught from her family, she kept in the family; how similar she thought the two were, I never asked. Though when I was first involved in Wicca, I was taught I was practising traditional witchcraft, so at the time I probably assumed there wasn't much :D.

[Phae Talon]

Question1)
If Trads will not teach others,unless its in person,then how will people learn that want to know?How can a person that is yearning to learn the old ways learn them if there is no one around to teach them?

There are plenty of books out there on traditional practises. You could start there, and work the rest out for yourself. There really isn't a whole lot that you need to be taught ... a lot can be learned through trial and error, and developing a style that works for you (and no one can teach you that).


Q2)
If Trads want discuss what the believe except with close friends then again how will others that desire to learn,learn.

Why do you need someone to teach you what to believe? When I started on this path, I already had very firm ideas about my spirituality and exactly what I believe. That hasn't changed. If you want to look into mythologies and folklore, that will tell your what your ancestors believed, but no one can or should teach/tell you what to believe spiritually ... that is something you need to figure out on your own.



Isnt there a way that the beliefs and practices of Trad.Witchcraft(not the personal versions),but the main concepts.For instance,on rituals the guidelines or outlines could be taught,but leaving out the personal stuff and explaining that it can be done with what you feel comfortable doing and so and so.

In Traditional Witchcraft, the rituals ARE personal versions. There are no main guidelines or outlines to follow ... it isn't like Wicca in the way that there are set ways to do things. You could very well use Wiccan rituals to start with and move on to some of your own creation later, but there are no 'Traditional Witchcraft' rituals that everyone follows.

--Phae

[Kern]

It would depend on whether they see any difference between the basics and the more personal elements, I guess. I suspect the point is that many don't; and I can see their point, in a way. The basics are often the foundations upon which a tradition's practises are based. It might not involve the most complicated or earth-shattering wisdom, but will it be that relevant to you, if you only get half the picture? :whatgives

I've only met one person who claimed to be part of a fam-trad, and she was very private about her beliefs. She was also a member of a Wiccan coven, but what she was taught from her family, she kept in the family; how similar she thought the two were, I never asked. Though when I was first involved in Wicca, I was taught I was practising traditional witchcraft, so at the time I probably assumed there wasn't much :D.
Thats understandable............

[Kern]

There are plenty of books out there on traditional practises. You could start there, and work the rest out for yourself. There really isn't a whole lot that you need to be taught ... a lot can be learned through trial and error, and developing a style that works for you (and no one can teach you that).



Why do you need someone to teach you what to believe? When I started on this path, I already had very firm ideas about my spirituality and exactly what I believe. That hasn't changed. If you want to look into mythologies and folklore, that will tell your what your ancestors believed, but no one can or should teach/tell you what to believe spiritually ... that is something you need to figure out on your own.



In Traditional Witchcraft, the rituals ARE personal versions. There are no main guidelines or outlines to follow ... it isn't like Wicca in the way that there are set ways to do things. You could very well use Wiccan rituals to start with and move on to some of your own creation later, but there are no 'Traditional Witchcraft' rituals that everyone follows.

--Phae
I get what your saying, and yeah thats true; I know what I believe,and I can understand that individual rituals are personal,but if a person is wanting to learn the OLD WAYS and no one is willing to teach them,then How is a person to learn them and if a person just chooses this and that from all sorts of places isnt that eclectic?
I have read on websites that Witchcraft is not eclectic so there must be some things that are formalised and standard that are handed down.Where do I learn these things?

Did witches believe in a earth mother and a father figure?
Did they believe in many gods or just the 2?
Did they believe in some god or spirit named Michael and if so who is he?
Did they bellieve in calling qrtrs and doing circles?
How did some keep the tides and festivals?
What tools if any did they use in doing ritual and spells?
What does a Bible figure named Tubal Cain have to do with pre christian ancient Europe?

Some sites said they did and believed all these things and some say they didnt.Which is right?

I personally believe that there is a great spirit out there that I refer to as the Earth Mother and one that is a father figure,i refer to him as the god or God,I believe in many spirits and in animism and many other things,but how did my forefathers that were witches honor them; thats what I want to learn,how did they work with spells and herbs and other things that I have no way of finding out unless some one will teach me,Yes I know I need to read some of Nigel Jackson books and others.But Me making up stuff or taking this and that from wherever is not what they knew or practiced,if I want to make up stuff then I should be called Eclectic witch or Wiccan not Traditional Witch.Can I say truly that I am a Witch or a Traditional one or A Cunning man if I have no knowledge of those things and just make them up as I go. Sounds like neo paganism to me and not the witchcraft that was handed down to my gr gr grandmother and others.Sadly it died with her.
Any spirit conjurers out there that can call up her spirit so I can ask her?

[Seren_]

But Me making up stuff or taking this and that from wherever is not what they knew or practiced,if I want to make up stuff then I should be called Eclectic witch or Wiccan not Traditional Witch.

Are you saying that Wicca is "made up stuff"? I'd point out that while it might not have as much of a history as it was once thought to have, it is a valid and fulfilling spiritual path for a lot of people...it's not all glossy books and fluffy bunnies who don't know what they're talking about.


Can I say truly that I am a Witch or a Traditional one or A Cunning man if I have no knowledge of those things and just make them up as I go. Sounds like neo paganism to me and not the witchcraft that was handed down to my gr gr grandmother and others.

I think maybe you need to clarify what you mean Witch, Traditional Witch and Cunning Man mean. Are cunning folk witches? Do you mean witch as in someone who practices magic, or someone who practices the (a?) religion of witchcraft? I don't know about, you, but I find the terms confusing, anyway :D

For example, historically, cunning folk did not (openly) identify themselves as witches. They were peddlers, charmers, wise-folk, even medical people. But they were mostly very conscious to be not witches, even anti-thetical to witches. Some of their biggest business was warding off evil and witchcraft, rather than practising it, although the more puritanical objecters to anything "supernatural" lumped them all into the same category.

And, cunning folk were the type of people who "made it up" par excellence. A lot of the charms and things that have been found (usually in old houses, stuffed in chimney breasts or wall cavities and the like to ward off evil). They used a variety of sources - the folk magic that pretty much everyone practised in one way or another (but was that witchcraft or pseudo-science?), along with more intellectual sources like old grimoires of ceremonial, Qabalistic magic, astrology and so on - most cunning folk were literate, and had at least a few books to look good, if anything. Like this charm against witchcraft:


Sator, arepo, Tenet, opera, Rotas,
Jah, Jah, Jah,
Enom Jah, Jah, Jah, Rethur
Gehuvah Siphereth, negach, Had
Yesod, malkush, amaluim,
Jouae Juest, Shadrach,
Mishnach abednago, be ye
all present in my aid
and for whatsoever I shall desire to obtain.

This is a mixture of a classical acrostic (the first line), some Qabalistic stuff (Jah, Siphereth, Had, Yesod and Malkush being mostly bad spellings of Qabalistic stuff), and so on. Most examples that have survived seem to suggest that "looking" magical and powerful - to the client especially, that is - was more important than any "traditional" functionality.

But then we have a lot of the end product - the charms - but not much information on how they were made. That tended to be more secret, and could have been a lot more "traditional", I guess.



What does a Bible figure named Tubal Cain have to do with pre christian ancient Europe?


I don't know my Bible stories too well, but there is the old story of Cain and Abel, Cain being the one that murdered Abel. The "sons of Cain" are often mentioned in relation to the bad things like demons, elves goblins...witches. I would wonder that the name might be a bit tongue in cheek...

Although it is also "the son of Lamech and Zillah, "an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron" (Gen. 4:22; R.V., "the forger of every cutting instrument of brass and iron")." Tubal Cain also has something to do with Freemasonry, so there might be something in that, too.

Then there's the Clan of Tubal Cain, who Robert Cochrane established as a "traditional" group of witches. I think it's generally agreed that it's not as traditional or old as Cochrane told everyone, much like Gardner's Wicca. Doreen Valiente has some fascinating stuff to say about both of them in her book The Rebirth of Witchcraft, if you can find a copy (I found one second hand and it was a lot of money, but I'm a hoarder, so I paid for it).

She also collaborated with Evan John Jones on a book called Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed. It's certainly not Wiccan, but I wasn't impressed to be honest, although it is a different perspective. Jones and Valiente were both involved with Cochrane's original group.

For the rest of your questions, you might find some answers in Macha's excellent first post...

[Kern]

Are you saying that Wicca is "made up stuff"? I'd point out that while it might not have as much of a history as it was once thought to have, it is a valid and fulfilling spiritual path for a lot of people...it's not all glossy books and fluffy bunnies who don't know what they're talking about.

I think maybe you need to clarify what you mean Witch, Traditional Witch and Cunning Man mean. Are cunning folk witches? Do you mean witch as in someone who practices magic, or someone who practices the (a?) religion of witchcraft? I don't know about, you, but I find the terms confusing, anyway :D

For example, historically, cunning folk did not (openly) identify themselves as witches. They were peddlers, charmers, wise-folk, even medical people. But they were mostly very conscious to be not witches, even anti-thetical to witches. Some of their biggest business was warding off evil and witchcraft, rather than practising it, although the more puritanical objecters to anything "supernatural" lumped them all into the same category.

And, cunning folk were the type of people who "made it up" par excellence. A lot of the charms and things that have been found (usually in old houses, stuffed in chimney breasts or wall cavities and the like to ward off evil). They used a variety of sources - the folk magic that pretty much everyone practised in one way or another (but was that witchcraft or pseudo-science?), along with more intellectual sources like old grimoires of ceremonial, Qabalistic magic, astrology and so on - most cunning folk were literate, and had at least a few books to look good, if anything. Like this charm against witchcraft:


Sator, arepo, Tenet, opera, Rotas,
Jah, Jah, Jah,
Enom Jah, Jah, Jah, Rethur
Gehuvah Siphereth, negach, Had
Yesod, malkush, amaluim,
Jouae Juest, Shadrach,
Mishnach abednago, be ye
all present in my aid
and for whatsoever I shall desire to obtain.

This is a mixture of a classical acrostic (the first line), some Qabalistic stuff (Jah, Siphereth, Had, Yesod and Malkush being mostly bad spellings of Qabalistic stuff), and so on. Most examples that have survived seem to suggest that "looking" magical and powerful - to the client especially, that is - was more important than any "traditional" functionality.

But then we have a lot of the end product - the charms - but not much information on how they were made. That tended to be more secret, and could have been a lot more "traditional", I guess.



I don't know my Bible stories too well, but there is the old story of Cain and Abel, Cain being the one that murdered Abel. The "sons of Cain" are often mentioned in relation to the bad things like demons, elves goblins...witches. I would wonder that the name might be a bit tongue in cheek...

Although it is also "the son of Lamech and Zillah, "an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron" (Gen. 4:22; R.V., "the forger of every cutting instrument of brass and iron")." Tubal Cain also has something to do with Freemasonry, so there might be something in that, too.

Then there's the Clan of Tubal Cain, who Robert Cochrane established as a "traditional" group of witches. I think it's generally agreed that it's not as traditional or old as Cochrane told everyone, much like Gardner's Wicca. Doreen Valiente has some fascinating stuff to say about both of them in her book The Rebirth of Witchcraft, if you can find a copy (I found one second hand and it was a lot of money, but I'm a hoarder, so I paid for it).

She also collaborated with Evan John Jones on a book called Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed. It's certainly not Wiccan, but I wasn't impressed to be honest, although it is a different perspective. Jones and Valiente were both involved with Cochrane's original group.

For the rest of your questions, you might find some answers in Macha's excellent first post...
No thats not what I meant,I WAS referring to the eclecticsm of Wicca that adds this and that from different paths etc.If I did that then it would not be the same as what Traditional Witches practiced hundreds or even thousands of yrs ago and I want to learn about pre Gardnerian Traditional Witchcraft as a practice(magick) and as a religion.
As for cunning folk I only knew of them as being witches,thanks for the input.

[mucgwyrt]

As an example of these Celtic coins, see this Canti quarter stater with a horse and pentagram.
http://athens.arch.ox.ac.uk/coins/cwjul00.htm

scroll right down to the foot of that page, and there is another Celtic coin from the same area (modern Kent, England) again with a pentagram.
Very interesting; I take it all back!
"misinformed macha" :D

[mucgwyrt]

OK, I'll do my best to answer your questions, although I've drifted from this path somewhat. This is just from what I've gleaned from the people who taught me. As Phae said, there is no absolute with Traditional Witchcraft; it's very much what works for you.


Did witches believe in a earth mother and a father figure? Yes. It's one of those inescapable thingies; a mother and a father give life...

Did they believe in many gods or just the 2? a bit iffy here; the lot I know tend to think of the gods as personifications of certain traits; aphrodite being the personification of 'love' for example. So you tell me.

Did they believe in some god or spirit named Michael and if so who is he?
No idea. 'michael' is a reasonabley recent name I would imagine, and so is probably biblical. Not that the bible isn't incorporated into witchcraft of course; the anglo-saxons combined the bible into many charms and so forth, more for survival reasons than anything else I think. (i.e. so that the charm would survive, as well as so that they wouldn't get hanged :lol: )

Did they bellieve in calling qrtrs and doing circles?
"did they"? Depends what era you're talking about. The anglo-saxons, one generation of what would have been a 'traditional' witch, did not.

How did some keep the tides and festivals? Depends on what era you're talking about.

What tools if any did they use in doing ritual and spells? Think simple. If they needed to cut something, they used whatever knife was to hand. That's it.

What does a Bible figure named Tubal Cain have to do with pre christian ancient Europe? Hmm, well is it's the Cain of Cain and Abel fame, then he was said to be the father of all evil and demons and so forth (including Peoples!), before they invented satan :)


Some sites said they did and believed all these things and some say they didnt.Which is right?
There is no right and wrong, there is only what works for you. That's the beauty of Traditional Witchcraft :)

[Kern]

OK, I'll do my best to answer your questions, although I've drifted from this path somewhat. This is just from what I've gleaned from the people who taught me. As Phae said, there is no absolute with Traditional Witchcraft; it's very much what works for you.

Yes. It's one of those inescapable thingies; a mother and a father give life...
a bit iffy here; the lot I know tend to think of the gods as personifications of certain traits; aphrodite being the personification of 'love' for example. So you tell me.

No idea. 'michael' is a reasonabley recent name I would imagine, and so is probably biblical. Not that the bible isn't incorporated into witchcraft of course; the anglo-saxons combined the bible into many charms and so forth, more for survival reasons than anything else I think. (i.e. so that the charm would survive, as well as so that they wouldn't get hanged :lol: )

"did they"? Depends what era you're talking about. The anglo-saxons, one generation of what would have been a 'traditional' witch, did not.
Depends on what era you're talking about.
Think simple. If they needed to cut something, they used whatever knife was to hand. That's it.
Hmm, well is it's the Cain of Cain and Abel fame, then he was said to be the father of all evil and demons and so forth (including Peoples!), before they invented satan :)


There is no right and wrong, there is only what works for you. That's the beauty of Traditional Witchcraft :)
Thanks Macha!You have helped some what.
So being that I cant find anyone to teach me their path,I just add to it what I want and call it TW correct?Isnt that eclectic though?I thought TW was against that and against people just calling themselves Witch?Doesnt one have to be initiated into a family path or trad?

[Kern]

Well why doesnt some one on here that practices Tradional Witchcraft give a class in what they know?

[mucgwyrt]

Well why doesnt some one on here that practices Tradional Witchcraft give a class in what they know?
Because then it can be used an abused, as they say.
I certainly don't revel in the idea of teaching traditional witchcraft to a fluffy who can't get past the idea of wicca etc. It would be so stressful! lmao

[mucgwyrt]

Thanks Macha!You have helped some what.
So being that I cant find anyone to teach me their path,I just add to it what I want and call it TW correct?Isnt that eclectic though?I thought TW was against that and against people just calling themselves Witch?Doesnt one have to be initiated into a family path or trad?
not eclectic, just personalised :)

I think you're confusing "eclectic wicca" as a path, with witchcraft :uhhuhuh:
You need to forget about wicca; it has nothing to do with traditional witchcraft.

[Kern]

not eclectic, just personalised :)

I think you're confusing "eclectic wicca" as a path, with witchcraft :uhhuhuh:
You need to forget about wicca; it has nothing to do with traditional witchcraft.

Hmm thats not what I meant,I wasnt thinking of Wicca,just the term eclectic implies taking things from other sources or in this case beliefs and practices and adding them to ones own views.Which is widely accepted in Wicca.(not that theres anything wrong with that,to each their own).Does that make sense?

Im not Wiccan thats why I want to learn about TW not wiccan...

[mucgwyrt]

Hmm thats not what I meant,I wasnt thinking of Wicca,just the term eclectic implies taking things from other sources or in this case beliefs and adding them to ones own views.Does that make sense?
Im not Wiccan thats why I want to learn about TW not wiccan...
Well, the bottom line is, it IS an eclectic path :lol:
I had a hard time getting my head around it when I started out too, but there is no one set way to do things, in TW. There are guidelines (ie general herb lore and spellcraft), but at the end of the day your ritual is usually absolutely completely different to your neighbouring TW's. It's whatever works for you.
:hugz:

edit: Imagine you're a healer (ie witch) in a british village, 500ce. Are your rituals going to be anything like the healers' a few villages away? Probably not, because you never speak to one another. however, you will have learnt to heal from your mother, just as they learnt to heal from their mother, and so on. You are both still witches, you both know what you're doing, you're both hereditary, but your rituals are totally different. There is no one way of doing things; there is no right and wrong, just what is right for you.

[Kern]

Well, the bottom line is, it IS an eclectic path :lol:
I had a hard time getting my head around it when I started out too, but there is no one set way to do things, in TW. There are guidelines (ie general herb lore and spellcraft), but at the end of the day your ritual is usually absolutely completely different to your neighbouring TW's. It's whatever works for you.
:hugz:

edit: Imagine you're a healer (ie witch) in a british village, 500ce. Are your rituals going to be anything like the healers' a few villages away? Probably not, because you never speak to one another. however, you will have learnt to heal from your mother, just as they learnt to heal from their mother, and so on. You are both still witches, you both know what you're doing, you're both hereditary, but your rituals are totally different. There is no one way of doing things; there is no right and wrong, just what is right for you.
Okay!When you said
There are guidelines (ie general herb lore and spellcraft), and
however, you will have learnt to heal from your mother, just as they learnt to heal from their mother, and so on. thats what I wanted to learn more about.

[mucgwyrt]

You can do good research on those subjects online, in addition to what was posted at the beginning of this thread. Learn what wicca is, so that you can recognise what it's not. Also, learn to see the truth - the older ways of doing things - beneath the fluff, you know?! :lol:

Even the traditional witch I learnt from - a lot of it was still fluff and misinformation.

Anyway - I honestly can't tell you everything I learnt from my own teacher, because I'd get into trouble *eep*:lol: but herbal lore is out there, on the net etc. It just takes research, and a pinch of salt ;)

I've tailored my own path since though, which is anglo-saxon (just one of many generations of 'traditional witch' :) ) in basis. I'd be happy to share that with you over pm, if you'd like. :)

[Kern]

You can do good research on those subjects online, in addition to what was posted at the beginning of this thread. Learn what wicca is, so that you can recognise what it's not. Also, learn to see the truth - the older ways of doing things - beneath the fluff, you know?! :lol:

Even the traditional witch I learnt from - a lot of it was still fluff and misinformation.

Anyway - I honestly can't tell you everything I learnt from my own teacher, because I'd get into trouble *eep*:lol: but herbal lore is out there, on the net etc. It just takes research, and a pinch of salt ;)

I've tailored my own path since though, which is anglo-saxon (just one of many generations of 'traditional witch' :) ) in basis. I'd be happy to share that with you over pm, if you'd like. :)
Dou you have any good links?
I have studied Wicca somewhat over the yrs,so I can recognise alot of it.And alot of it I dont agree with but thats my choice.....
Thanks again for all the help Macha.

[mucgwyrt]

Dou you have any good links?
I have studied Wicca somewhat over the yrs,so I can recognise alot of it.And alot of it I dont agree with but thats my choice.....
Thanks again for all the help Macha.
no links specifically (I'm not much use really, am I? :lol: ) you just have to trawl through the masses :lol:

[Kern]

no links specifically (I'm not much use really, am I? :lol: ) you just have to trawl through the masses :lol:
Will do and know you have been helpful... :broomride

[Kern]

I was reading this website and thought this was intersting.According to this the term warlock didn't mean "Oath breaker" untill later under Xtian influence.
Guess I'm a warlock after all; because I am not going to let Xtians tell me what I am and what a word means.
Read the whole article,it is mainly about the origin of the word witch.......

Terms such as “warlock” came to mean “oath breaker”, among other very terrible things; when in reality, the term “warlock” is from the old Norse “Vard-Lokkur”, meaning a “Song that attracts spirits”, or a “Song of conjuring”, and it refers to such a person who makes such incantations or “songs” to lure spirits, because gradually, with time, the term for the song and for the singer became interchangeable. Modern day shamans, in many tribal societies worldwide, use “songs” to invoke spirits or communicate with them- and you don’t see their fellow tribesmen living in terror of them!



http://www.thecrookedheath.com/elder/witchcont.htm

[mucgwyrt]

There have been many a heated debateover that one - do a search in MW and see what you come up with.

'Warlock' is not a term which existed (as far as I know) with the meaning for 'male witch' in anglo-saxon britain at least. A general term for male witches were Wicca (female were wicce), but there are doezens upon dozens of terms applicable depending on what you specialise in. If you're dying for a label, I can fish a more positive one than 'warlock' out for you if you like ;)

E.g. someone who heals through the astral plane and can travel out of body was a 'scinnlæca' in anglo-saxon (pre christian) britain :)

:apumpkin:

[Kern]

There have been many a heated debateover that one - do a search in MW and see what you come up with.

'Warlock' is not a term which existed (as far as I know) with the meaning for 'male witch' in anglo-saxon britain at least. A general term for male witches were Wicca (female were wicce), but there are doezens upon dozens of terms applicable depending on what you specialise in. If you're dying for a label, I can fish a more positive one than 'warlock' out for you if you like ;)

E.g. someone who heals through the astral plane and can travel out of body was a 'scinnlæca' in anglo-saxon (pre christian) britain :)

:apumpkin:
Hmm,well I never tried astral travel before.What other terms are used for males that do magick,spells,works with herbs etc?Leech?

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

This is the first time I've really spoken about the path I have found myself travelling in all the time I've been here, I think! My path is one of the Traditional Witch. Well, as traditional as you can get - every traditional-witch's path is different, and not much is written about it. I was lucky enough to be welcomed by a witch-family here in britain, and to learn from them :)

I try to stick to a "traditional" witchcraft, as opposed to 1950s Wicca etc. Not because I feel its any more valid, but because I much prefer the simplicity of the Pre-Gardnerian witchcraft strain. "Traditional" in this sense refers to a witchraft pre-wicca, the family tradition, hedgewitchery.

For example, I do not use an alter - the earth is the alter upon which I live :smile:.
I do use a Stang however (although I'm looking for one made of Rowan, at the moment I use a make-do Stang!) which is similar to an alter in many respects; it is a long staff with a forked top, used to symbolise the unity of the masculine (the pole - day, the sun) and the feminine (the fork, night, the moon) as well The Horned God, Cernunnous.

My Stang is present whenever I cast a circle, or do anything witchy. It is a part of me :smile:
I believe my future Stang has a guardian which I have met in a dream, and he will look out for me when I open the door into the Otherworld when I cast a circle, and in my magical life in general. I'm not sure about my Make-Do-Stang, as I've not committed to it so much; I've not created a bond with it so much.

At Samhain I will my decorate my Stang with Duck feathers to symbolise death and life, at Ostara I decorate it with daffodils and goose feathers, on MayDay I will decorate it with fresh tulips and with cherry blossoms if I come across any, at Harvest I will hang corn and orange autumn leaves from the fork. In between, a piece of red ribbon (symbolising the blood of The Mother) and several Goose feathers (showing my not so traditional Shamanic side; the goose is my spirit animal! :smile: ) hang from the fork, along with whatever I feel is relevant in my life at the time, e.g. there is currently a strand of moonstone chips, representing my new found affinity with crystals an their energies, as well the piece of moonstone I gave the Yew Spirit as a peace offering an apology.

My Stang is shod with a single iron nail, which I have read on the few Traditional Witch websites I have come accross that some say is to stop its powers from escaping from the bottom!! I personally believe this is a silly notion!! My own Stang is shod though, because Iron is made of the earth, and I feel it increases the Stang's (and by extension, my own) connection with the earth. Some witches keep it stood in a pot of Earth which they refill every full moon, though I personally don't because its not practical for me.

Unlike Wicca, there are no real 'rules' to follow. I celebrate whatever festival if/when I feel is best for me (e.g. I celebrate Beltane on MayDay - this year MayDay is the 3rd of May, and I choose to celebrate Samhain on the Dark Moon which falls nearest to halloween). There is no 'Witch Rede' - the closest thing to the notion of the 'threefold' law is that if you feel guilt over your actions, your energies will return to you. If you do not feel guilty over whatever you have done, you are free of consequence; your energies will not linger and will not affect you. I dont know how many un-traditional witches would agree, but it has proved itself to me.

What else? I dont use an athame, because they are not practical. As I understand it, an Athame was a notion which Gardner brought back from his time in Malaysia. Instead I use one hand-decorated folding penknife for all my work - from carving into candles to collecting herbs - and so I bond with it better than I would an ornate knife I never use.

My one downfall, as I have said before, is that I love scrying! Traditional witches I believe, use pools or bowls of water, whereas I'm rather attached to my Obsidian Ball and my swanky new quartz pendulum :D

I believe and work with things like chakras and auras, but see these things as seperate from Witchcraft. The pentagram has little meaning for me, it is from the Quabbala.

I embrace the dark side of life, the Dark moon etc, and have no fear of spell casting if I so desire. I do not hide from the dark as many 'fluffy' wiccans do (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.)

I have a BOS, though that is not a part of traditional witchcraft, as most old witches could not read or write - theirs was an oral tradition. However, I am blessed with the ability to read, and put it to good use :D

I can't think of anything else, though I will mention it if I remember anything :D
I have much more to learn :)
I have to say this is all very interesting and quite informative, epsecially after reading all 6 pages of this thread, and checking out some of those links. This has all really got me thinking about my own beliefs...I think my path may be changing..yet again. Since last night i've been doing some research on traditional witchcraft (no idea really what caused me to suddenly decide to look into it more than i have in the past) and it does sound a whole lot like me ^_^ I'm not one for big fancy rituals or anything like that, i work w/ what i have on hand, generally, and am solitary by nature and practice. I've had a staff that I found amoung the brush that my dad had cleared in our yard a few years ago, i kept it, planning on making a staff out of it...it sit's the bark half stripped off it, against a pine tree, on the edge of the lawn and the woods, on a trail which used to be our cross country ski trail, and also leads to my permenant outdoors cirlcle, marked w/ stones. The unfinished staff, has sat there, waiting for me, for a very long time. I always knew i wanted to decorate it, but was never sure how, nothing seemed right...but then i read about stangs...and that seems ::very:: appropriate, very right.

I think, i've found a new path i ought to take....:)

[Kern]

Very interesting article I cam across.
http://www.thecrookedheath.com/witch.htm

[Seren_]

Macha,

Speaking of stangs, as Faelon was...would it be possible to elaborate on their history at all, or your general knowledge :D? I realise this may cover some oathbound ground for you, and respect that...but if you can share (and would like to), I would be very interested.

In the trad I was trained in, we also used stangs - except we didn't shoe them, because the iron is repellent to the fae. I was told that they were "hidden altars" - the prongs forming a space to hang tools on, rather than place them on like with a flat altar - less incriminating, therefore. Do you (or anyone, I should add) have any thoughts on this, or further sources I can look at?

[Nantonos]

An interesting account of stangs may be found in
Evan John Jones with Doreen Valiente (1990) WITCHCRAFT A Tradition Renewed. Phoenix Publishing

[mucgwyrt]

Macha,

Speaking of stangs, as Faelon was...would it be possible to elaborate on their history at all, or your general knowledge :D? I realise this may cover some oathbound ground for you, and respect that...but if you can share (and would like to), I would be very interested.

In the trad I was trained in, we also used stangs - except we didn't shoe them, because the iron is repellent to the fae. I was told that they were "hidden altars" - the prongs forming a space to hang tools on, rather than place them on like with a flat altar - less incriminating, therefore. Do you (or anyone, I should add) have any thoughts on this, or further sources I can look at?
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was told; to be honest I never enquired after their history.

[midnightreflections]

a Stang is a forked ritual pole. Traditionally, it is made of ash and can also be used as a walking stick (especially in olden times) and therefore a "mobile" altar
It can represent the Godstane or the Good tree; it can represent dualities, chiefly life and death. . It can represent the world tree. Placed in the North it represents the Horned God as guardian of the portals of Annwyvn and opener of the ghost roads into his underworld kingdom. It can also represent many other things.
The maypole during Beltane celebrations is in a fact a May Stang.

Riding the Stang is a tradition carried out in which wrongdoers such as people guilty of domestic disturbance, nagging, adultery or spouse beating are humiliated and banished, in a similar way to the Wild Hunt.
The leader of may wear a Ooser, a ritual mask of the Old One. Whilst the crowd acting as the hounds could wear stag antlers, bull horns, goat skulls and beat pots and pans. Effigies of the wrongdoers were placed on horseback seated back to back.
Other names for riding the Stang are Rough Musick, Skimmity and Skimmington Ride
Stag hunting is also inspired by the wild hunt with the men acting as hounds and the "stag" being a man carrying a blood filled bladder which is ritually "killed" upon capture.

Shoeing the stang can be done in order to help control the fae

[mucgwyrt]

Yes, but in all those examples (may pole etc) a stang does not have a fork.
I may be incorrect, but wasn't Seren asking where the stand (the forked one, as we know it now) came from; when it developped its fork? :huh:

[-Ember]

Part of the explanation I was given (most of the misc being already covered) was that it is in part the center suport (holding up the roof beam.) In this, it also becomes the world tree, the bile, the axis mundi. The fork, besides representing all the things it does, helps keep the roof beams in place in simply constructed shelters.

[Seren_]

Yes, but in all those examples (may pole etc) a stang does not have a fork.
I may be incorrect, but wasn't Seren asking where the stand (the forked one, as we know it now) came from; when it developped its fork? :huh:

Anything, really. I was just wondering where they came from - any historical evidence. As Nantonos reminded me (cheers), Evan John Jones and Valiente go into it a bit in Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed. But that throws up more questions for me!

To sum it up, they say that the origins and history of the stang aren't clear, but they do point to Alfred Watkins The Old Straight Track as exploring some "speculation and conjecture" about its origins, so I might hunt up a copy.


Riding the Stang is a tradition carried out in which wrongdoers such as people guilty of domestic disturbance, nagging, adultery or spouse beating are humiliated and banished, in a similar way to the Wild Hunt.
The leader of may wear a Ooser, a ritual mask of the Old One. Whilst the crowd acting as the hounds could wear stag antlers, bull horns, goat skulls and beat pots and pans. Effigies of the wrongdoers were placed on horseback seated back to back.
Other names for riding the Stang are Rough Musick, Skimmity and Skimmington Ride
Stag hunting is also inspired by the wild hunt with the men acting as hounds and the "stag" being a man carrying a blood filled bladder which is ritually "killed" upon capture.

Shoeing the stang can be done in order to help control the fae

Interesting...do you have any sources/bibliography for that?

[Nantonos]

To sum it up, they say that the origins and history of the stang aren't clear, but they do point to Alfred Watkins The Old Straight Track as exploring some "speculation and conjecture" about its origins, so I might hunt up a copy.

In case people are unaware of the historical significance, that book is the one that proposed the idea of ley lines.

Its perhaps also worth noting that, in an age where metal technology was much more expensive than naturally harvested items, a pitchfork was originally a two-pronged entirely wooden item, created from a tree that had the right sort of natually grown (and this strong) fork. There were probably tree species that were particularly used for this (wood technology is worth investigating, for folks interested in stangs). Museums of agricultural history are probably fruitful grounds for research. Just a thought.

[Nantonos]

Part of the explanation I was given (most of the misc being already covered) was that it is in part the center suport (holding up the roof beam.) In this, it also becomes the world tree, the bile, the axis mundi. The fork, besides representing all the things it does, helps keep the roof beams in place in simply constructed shelters.

This is sliding off topic, or at least a much earlier period, but its interesting that the description of an Epona shrine in a stable in 'the Golden Ass' by Lucius Apuleius is quite specific as to the location:


These thoughts were interrupted by my catching sight of a statue of the goddess Epona seated in a small shrine centrally placed, where a pillar supported the roof-beams in the middle of the stable.

the Latin being very specific about the middle of the middle beam that supports the whole building


respicio pilae mediae, quae stabuli trabes sustinebat, in ipso fere meditullio Eponae deae simulacrum residens aediculae

I'm wondering is this is a play on words, physically the center beam supports the whole stable, and spiritually the Epona shrine protects the whole stable.

Ok back from 200 years ago to the present.sorry. Those interested in the magical properties of buildings and their construction, I recall Nigel Pennick wrote about this but don't have the reference to hand, anyone remember?