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aefentid
May 10th, 2004, 06:38 PM
A thread to discuss, debate and ask questions about the gods.

in frith,
Æfentid

mothwench
May 14th, 2004, 01:55 PM
just one quick question:
you've put thor and tyr in one post. does that mean they are the same, only in different places? i didn't click any of the links yet, i'm just skimming, maybe the info is in there.

aefentid
May 14th, 2004, 05:49 PM
just one quick question:
you've put thor and tyr in one post. does that mean they are the same, only in different places? i didn't click any of the links yet, i'm just skimming, maybe the info is in there.
No they're definitely different gods, they're also both gods that I've had a hard time getting to know, so I decided to link to articles instead of writing long articles on them and I put them in the same post to save space.

in frith,
Æfentid

Nantonos
May 17th, 2004, 05:49 PM
I was wondering if Mani was related to Mannus. From Tacitus Germania:


In their ancient songs, their only way of remembering or recording the past, they celebrate an earth-born god, Tuisco, and his son Mannus, as the origin of their race, as their founders. To Mannus they assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast tribes are called Ingævones; those of the interior, Herminones; all the rest, Istævones. Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity, assert that the god had several descendants, and the nation several appellations, as Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii, and that these are genuine old names.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083;layout=;loc=1;query=chapter%3D%232

It was just the similar name that I was going on. Here is the Latin in case people want to check the translation:


[3] Celebrant carminibus antiquis, quod unum apud illos memoriae et annalium genus est, Tuistonem deum terra editum. ei filium Mannum originem gentis conditoresque Manno tres filios adsignant, e quorum nominibus proximi Oceano Ingaevones, medii Herminones, ceteri Istaevones vocentur. [4] quidam, ut in licentia vetustatis, plures deo ortos pluresque gentis appellationes, Marsos Gambrivios Suebos Vandilios adfirmant, eaque vera et antiqua nomina.

The article on Mani (http://www.mundilfari.org/manifesto.htm) said that Mani had no horse 'that we know of' so I found it interesting that Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898) says:


Mannus

A familiar Latin word for a horse, derived from the Keltic, and used like our “nag” or perhaps even more slangily like “plug.”

A god of the ancient Germans, and by them regarded as one of the founders of the race. See Germania, p. 726.

The Celtic word from which it is derived is marcos, by the way, which also survives in Old Irish marc and Welsh, Cornish and Breton march and also in Germanic languages, such as Old Icelandic marr, Anglo-Saxon mearh, Old High German marah, and the female form is also found in Old High German Mähre meaning a mare or nag (a pejorative term for a run-down old horse) from which, perhaps, we get English mare?

Nantonos
May 17th, 2004, 05:52 PM
Is there any lor on the Vanir before the Aesir? Does Loki figure in that lore? Wondering if Loki is a way to both resolve and enhance the tensions between Aesir and Vanir, being part of neither.

mothwench
May 18th, 2004, 06:51 AM
oh! i just read about mannus yesterday. i was looking up irminsul. now if i could only remember... :spaceman:

mothwench
May 18th, 2004, 09:50 AM
okay, i've started my in depth study on lesson three, and i have a couple of questions about them all but i'll get to them later, right now i want to ask something about midgard i read in the creation part of the odin lesson (i'm writing it down quick so as not to forget my question :lol: ):
so the prose edda says
of his (Ymir's) brows the blithe gods made Midgard, for sons of men.
1. what's blithe, and 2. if the gods made Midgard from the brows, and the trees from his hair, sea from his sweat and whatnot, does that mean that the forests and oceans of the world are not actually part of midgard? does Midgard perhaps mean human settlements, villages, towns, cities and forts? if that is so, then which of the nine worlds is the sea, the wilderness, etc?

edited to add: :rolleyes: just realised i'm jumping ahead again. i should save this for the lesson on the nine worlds, shouldn't i? :toofless:

mothwench
May 18th, 2004, 02:46 PM
:boing: more questions:

odin:
he sacrifices one eye for a swig of Minir's well of wisdom. who is Minir, and is his/her well somehow connected to the well of wyrd?

freyr:
who is beli the giant, and why does freyr kill him?
who is surt?

mothy thoughts about freyr: i like the way the marriage between freyr and gerd is looked at as a marriage between heaven and earth. recently i read a sort of expansion on that theory, that freyr represented the warming sun of spring while gerd represented the frozen earth of winter, who only grudgeingly thaws to recieve and nurture freyr's seed.

loki:
just how and why and in what way did loki give birth to sleipnir? :huh: who was sleipnir's father, er... mother? other parent?
did i ask how? ;)
edited to add: loki's parent's were both giants. is it known what kind of giants, i.e. were they jotunn, thurse or rise? and then why is loki not a giant himself? he's never described as one. :huh:

mothy thoughts on loki, or, a tree hugger/eco warrior's spin on baldr's death:
i see frigg demanding oaths from all these things and creatures a metaphor for humanity having overcome the majority of nature's perils, i.e. wild animals and adverse weather. the gods making a game of throwing things at baldr and putting him in (what would normally be) immediate danger is to me representative of abusing this "pact" frigg has made with nature. it's like nature extends a little finger, and the gods choose to grab the whole hand. so to me this story is very representative of the problems we face today, exploitation and pollution. and the resulting hole in the ozone layer, the flooding etc., is the manifestation of loki's "deceit".
:elf:

frigga
May 19th, 2004, 10:36 AM
Ok, the well of wyrd is divided into 3 aspects and is inYaggdrasill. Mimir is the middle one and is guared by the etin mimir, this well is the well of memory.

Loki is an etin giant whom Odin swore an oath of blood-brotherhood to. I also would like to know about all this birthing of different "species". Loki's wife, Angrbodha or rather mistress, still not clear on this, at any rate, these two produced some interesting offspring, wolves, wyrms, e gad! I have found that Loki became pregnant with slepnir when he turned himself into a mare to lure a stallion away from the mason that was repairing Ases Garth.

Surt is a fire etin that guards Muspellheim.

The Norns are like the Greek fates but they hold alot more power in heathenry. They are the weavers of orlog, and wyrd, clarification on this would be appriciated, it's kinda confusing for me. :huh:

I think I got most of it. I hope it's correct. I find a lot of different views on different stories, words etc. Thus the reason I'm taking this class, it's a lot to sort out!

Oh, Loved your ideas about frigga's pack, Balder's death, etc. being about a pack w/ nature. Never thought about it that way! :hmmmmm:

mothwench
May 20th, 2004, 04:31 AM
loki is a giant.... the giant thing puzzles me. when giants get the status of a god do they just shrink or something? not trying to be funny, it's just that loki's never depicted as a giant. neither is gerd, and really i have trouble imagining freyr and gerd... at it, if ya know what i mean... if she's a giant.
:huh:
:bigredblu embarrassing question, but it's been on my mind quite a while. :twitch:

mucgwyrt
May 20th, 2004, 09:09 AM
:boing: more questions:

odin:
he sacrifices one eye for a swig of Minir's well of wisdom. who is Minir, and is his/her well somehow connected to the well of wyrd?

freyr:
who is beli the giant, and why does freyr kill him?
who is surt?

mothy thoughts about freyr: i like the way the marriage between freyr and gerd is looked at as a marriage between heaven and earth. recently i read a sort of expansion on that theory, that freyr represented the warming sun of spring while gerd represented the frozen earth of winter, who only grudgeingly thaws to recieve and nurture freyr's seed.


Bit of a long shot but - "The name, Skírnír, means radiance" - so Ing's messenger is perhaps the rays of sunlight, travelling from the sun (Gerðr) to the Earth (Ing)?? :huh:
(I presume Gerðr is the sun, as Skírnír supposedly needs the sword to pierce the ring of fire which surrounds her.)




He was also associated with ships along with Gullinbursti, the dwarves also made Freyr a ship called Skidbladnir, a ship that was always followed by a fair wind could sail over land and sea and was large enough to carry all of the gods and goddesses, and when not in use could be folded up small enough to fit in a pocket.


Would that be the same ship written about (well... more sort of implied really...) in the anglo-saxon rune poem?:


Ing was first amid East-Danes
seen, they say,until he then eft
over wave went wagon after ran;
thus the Heardings the hero named.

mothwench
May 20th, 2004, 09:45 AM
Bit of a long shot but - "The name, Skírnír, means radiance" - so Ing's messenger is perhaps the rays of sunlight, travelling from the sun (Gerðr) to the Earth (Ing)?? :huh:
skirnir means radiance? yeah, that would be a very cool interpretation, i think, except to me it's the other way round: freyr is the sun and gerd is the frozen earth.

one important thing i always have to remind myself of in norse legend is that while freyr has solar aspects, he's not a solar god, cause that would be sunna's job. while sunna is the sun as such and it's movement across the sky, ing freyr represents the returning light of the sun, and it's effect on the earth. (but then of course so does freyja, not to menion iduna and/or eostre)

mucgwyrt
May 20th, 2004, 09:49 AM
I did hear though, that in Norse mythology the Sun is usually feminine, and the moon masculine; opposite to our culture.
Ing is the earth to me, as he's likened to Cernunnous, and is the male-fertility god(?).
Though saying that, whosiwhat is Ing's messenger... so either he travelled from the sun as a sunray, or hes not a sunray at all. I'm confusing myself here! :confused:

Maybe Aefentid could give us some input :D

frigga
May 20th, 2004, 10:11 AM
The sun is female and the moon male. Freyr is like the Holly King. He secures fruitful harvests and fertility of the land but at the price of a yearly slaying, or some see it as a temprary withdrawl of power. I can see how one could confuse him with the sun, in most Pagan/Wiccan traditions the return of the sun is seen as the seed ready to impregnant the Goddess. Freyr is much the same only not the sun? I agree on clarification here, after reading these things and thinking more my head is doing cartwheels! :ahhhh:

mothwench
May 20th, 2004, 10:43 AM
I did hear though, that in Norse mythology the Sun is usually feminine, and the moon masculine; opposite to our culture.

yes, that would be sunna, as i mentioned before.

@frigg: if i did have to put freyr into one of the arthurian celtic image catagories of the holly king and the oak king, it would definately be the oak king.

mucgwyrt
May 20th, 2004, 10:45 AM
On account of his big hard... tree trunk... right? :bigredblu

mothwench
May 20th, 2004, 10:49 AM
:crazylaug
yeah, but also cause i see him as more of a summer deity than a wintery one.
edited to add: ah, by the way, i seem to remember reading on several occasions he was the god of sun and rain. i don't know how much of this ties in with real legend, and how much of it might be neo-pagan gnosis.

mucgwyrt
May 20th, 2004, 10:50 AM
I agree :smile:
Oaks also have nice big nuts :D

mothwench
May 20th, 2004, 10:52 AM
:fishsmack: :rotfl: :p

frigga
May 20th, 2004, 11:58 AM
You'll have to excuse me, I'm not to knowledgeable about celtic deities :bigredblu, I did think that Holly would be strange for summer! If anyone finds info contrary(sp?) to what I say, please tell me. I'm trying to sort all this stuff out also. :woah:

mothwench
May 20th, 2004, 12:10 PM
no problem :) just for the record (cause i'm not even sure i have it right): the holly king slays the oak king at midsummer, symbolizing the waning strength of the sun. at yule the oak king comes back and slays the holly king... right? :woah:
so actually i wouldn't put freyr in either category, cause he's also a harvest deity, active at a time when the oak king is already dead. and he can't fit the holly king cause then he wouldn't be around in spring.
:spaceman:

frigga
May 20th, 2004, 12:42 PM
'tis a puzzlement! :hmmmmm:

Nantonos
May 20th, 2004, 12:59 PM
so actually i wouldn't put freyr in either category, cause he's also a harvest deity, active at a time when the oak king is already dead. and he can't fit the holly king cause then he wouldn't be around in spring.
:spaceman:

Well, that seems perfectly consistent - not with the Wiccan thing but with actual observation. Oaks throw a second set of leaves in late summer, which I have heard referred to as Lammas Leaves.

mothwench
May 20th, 2004, 01:02 PM
oh, that's a useful bit of info for our runes and woods thread. :D thanks!

mucgwyrt
May 20th, 2004, 01:46 PM
Isn't Ing the diety connected to Lammas? I'll have to check my bookmarks tomorrow...

mothwench
May 20th, 2004, 02:31 PM
well, not to the lammas, being celtic and that. but there is a harvest festival called frey faxi dedicated to him, which ppl would celebrate around the same time, i imagine.

Nantonos
May 21st, 2004, 06:55 PM
well, not to the lammas, being celtic and that. but there is a harvest festival called frey faxi dedicated to him, which ppl would celebrate around the same time, i imagine.

I thought Lammas was Saxon an was a contraction of Hlaef Mas or something like that (away from books, travelling, sorry)

banondraig
May 21st, 2004, 07:11 PM
I thought Lammas was Saxon an was a contraction of Hlaef Mas or something like that

me, too. there's a celtic one which closely corresponds called lughnasadh, though. many wiccans use the terms interchangeably.

mothwench
May 22nd, 2004, 03:49 AM
:lol: eh? sorry, i thought lammas came after lughnasadh, but that's mabon, innit? so is lammas kind of the anglo saxon term for frey faxi then? well, no, it can't be, can it? what does lammas mean?
damn, i shouldn't have dropped out of the COT wheel of the year class. :bigredblu
but honestly, who would stick around in a course where the teacher just ignores your questions? :wtf:

Nantonos
May 22nd, 2004, 05:12 PM
:lol: eh? sorry, i thought lammas came after lughnasadh, but that's mabon, innit? so is lammas kind of the anglo saxon term for frey faxi then? well, no, it can't be, can it? what does lammas mean?

I gather that its the Saxon term for the harvest celebration, same as Lughnassadh (or however its spelled, someone who speaks Irish please correct me). Yes, I have heard the two terms used interchangeably (and also heard Imbolc called Candlemass and Samhain called Hallows). Probably by people who are worried about the Irish names or how to pronounce them. Which is probably better than saying im-Bolc or Sam-Hayn. But now I am getting :fofftopic


damn, i shouldn't have dropped out of the COT wheel of the year class. :bigredblu
but honestly, who would stick around in a course where the teacher just ignores your questions? :wtf:

Well
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=52393
the answer might be .... nobody. It didn't seem to be a very responsive class, but I was enjoying revisiting the material and seeing how I felt about it years on, so that was fun at least, potentially fun.

Anyway, back to the class in hand.

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
May 24th, 2004, 11:03 AM
I gather that its the Saxon term for the harvest celebration, same as Lughnassadh (or however its spelled, someone who speaks Irish please correct me). Yes, I have heard the two terms used interchangeably (and also heard Imbolc called Candlemass and Samhain called Hallows). Probably by people who are worried about the Irish names or how to pronounce them. Which is probably better than saying im-Bolc or Sam-Hayn. But now I am getting :fofftopic

In Irish Gaelic it is Lughnasadh. Though most people do seem to add that extra s. And just because I usually use the Scots Gaelic, it's Lùnasdal. And from what I understood the term Lammas was introduced during the Christian era to replace Lùnasdal/Lughnasadh. Additionaly I learned that it was derived from hlaf-mæsse and was Old English.

frigga
May 27th, 2004, 11:45 AM
Does anyone know what happened to our fearless leader? Haven't heard from him in a while? :vanish:

mothwench
May 27th, 2004, 02:41 PM
-her. and yeah, i was wondering as well. i hope nothing's happened. :sadeyes:

frigga
May 27th, 2004, 02:44 PM
Oh ugh! Did I say HIM?...... :foh: :bigredblu :goodgrief :gagged: :noway:
*note to self*Must learn to preview and edit posts!

mothwench
May 27th, 2004, 02:50 PM
:lol: don't worry, it's mol's fault for not wanting gender markers. ;)

mucgwyrt
May 28th, 2004, 04:45 AM
In Irish Gaelic it is Lughnasadh. Though most people do seem to add that extra s. And just because I usually use the Scots Gaelic, it's Lùnasdal. And from what I understood the term Lammas was introduced during the Christian era to replace Lùnasdal/Lughnasadh. Additionaly I learned that it was derived from hlaf-mæsse and was Old English.

I always get confused when it comes to sabbats.
Does anyone know precisely which festivals come from which cultures?
And out of interest, does anyone know the Anglo-saxon/old english names for them all?
What does hlaf-mæsse mean? Bread Festival?

banondraig
May 28th, 2004, 05:48 AM
I always get confused when it comes to sabbats.
Does anyone know precisely which festivals come from which cultures?
And out of interest, does anyone know the Anglo-saxon/old english names for them all?
What does hlaf-mæsse mean? Bread Festival?

to answer:

1) i don't know. i'm pretty sure Ostara is anglo-saxon in origin. others are probably independently conceived in multiple places.

2) i'll try to look that up in the next few days, with what scanty resources i have.


3) yep. bread festival, bread Mass, along those lines.

mothwench
May 28th, 2004, 06:06 AM
hlaf=loaf? :huh:

mucgwyrt
May 28th, 2004, 06:08 AM
Probably :D

banondraig
May 28th, 2004, 06:28 AM
hlaf=loaf? :huh:

something like that.

also:

hlaf-dige=bread-giver, evolved into modern "lady".
hlaf-ward=bread-guardian, evolved into modern "lord".

source unfortunately forgotten.

mucgwyrt
May 28th, 2004, 06:31 AM
Iiiiinteresting... But the Anglo-Saxons had female/male so wouldn't it be Hlafa-Diga or something if its feminine? Or am I overanalyzing?!

mothwench
May 28th, 2004, 06:42 AM
i don't think they would have given the hlaf part the female gender... but i'm not sure. :huh:

edited to add: it makes sense though, now that i think about it. think of the spanish word for lady: dona (<-- should have a squiggle on the n ) if that doesn't come from whatever latin for "to give" is (i forget, it's something like donare) i'll eat my broom.

mucgwyrt
May 28th, 2004, 06:48 AM
Soooo... Hlaf-Diga then?

edit: This source (http://www.ladyoftheearth.com/religious/protectors.txt) says "half-Dige" and this one (http://library.catholic.org/family/family61.txt) "Hlaf-Diga"

banondraig
May 28th, 2004, 07:01 AM
yes, "dona" should have the ~ over the n. in spanish the ~-equipped n is considered a different letter than just plain n. n w/~ is pronounced "ny". spanish for "to give" is "dar". it's irregular. i don't recall if any of the forms resemble "don/don~a" though.

italian "donna" comes from latin "domina" though. i would guess "don" & "don~a" are related to that.

mothwench
May 28th, 2004, 07:39 AM
:twitch: the thought of eating my broom suddenly seems... daunting. :lol:

mucgwyrt
May 28th, 2004, 07:42 AM
Ahh if only you had a chocolate broom... :T

banondraig
May 28th, 2004, 07:46 AM
quick, someone get a chocolate broom! :rotfl:

what was the thread topic again?

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
May 28th, 2004, 09:07 AM
I always get confused when it comes to sabbats.
Does anyone know precisely which festivals come from which cultures?
And out of interest, does anyone know the Anglo-saxon/old english names for them all?
What does hlaf-mæsse mean? Bread Festival?

I can help you with the Celtic festivals for sure and a little bit with the Anglo-Saxon.

Celtic (Sorry, I don't know the Gaulish names):

Samhain (Irish Gaelic), Samhuinn (Scottish Gaelic), Sauin (Manx), Nos Calan Gaeaf (Welsh - First Day of Winter), Nos Kalann-Gwav (Cornish), Noz Kala-Goañv (Breton)

Imbolc (Old Gaelic), Là Fhéill Brìghde (Scottish Gaelic, probably modern as it's similar to the modern Irish - Lá Fhèile Bríde), Laa'l Vreeshey (Manx, again probably modern)

*There is no known Festival of Brigit/spring among the pre-Chritian Welsh, Cornish, and Bretons, though after the advent of Christianity the Welsh used to celebrate Gwyl Fair y Canhwyllau, Mary's Festival of the Candles at this time.

Beltaine (Irish Gaelic), Bealltainn (Scottish Gaelic), Boaldyn (Manx), Calan Mai (Welsh), Kalann-Me (Cornish), Kala-Mae (Breton)

Lughnasadh (Irish Gaelic), Lùnasdal (Scottish Gaelic), Luanys (Manx), Gwl Awst (Welsh), Goel Est (Cornish), Gouel an Eost (Breton)

These festival days traditionally lasted three days before and three days after the dates we normally reckon them by. Of course the days we reckon them by are also not the original dates. The dates were probably figured by observations of the heavens by the Druids, later when they adopted a solar calendar to go with the lunar they were figured by the Coligny calendar which merged the two, after the Roman invasion they figured by the Julian calendar (I ponder since parts of Ireland and Scotland were never conquered by the Romans if they continued to use the older Coligny calendar :huh: ), and finally they adopted the Gregorian in the mid-eighteenth century. The dates by this point were eleven days before the old reckoning. Even now you will see some of the Lùnasdal fairs celebrated in mid-August rather than in the beginning.

It is believed by scholars that the solstices were probably celebrated in a similar fashion to the four listed above, though there is no evidence that the equinoxes were honored.

Anglo-Saxon/Germanic, my knowledge here is imperfect and I'm clueless when it comes to the language so I'll just list those I know are Anglo-Saxon/Germanic festivals.:

Yule or Geola took place around the winter solstice
Eostre, named for the goddess and celebrated in April
Walpurgisnacht, this was originally thought to have been named for a heathen goddess, but it is now believed to be named after a saint. Which of course makes me ponder whether or not it should be considered a heathen festival date. Though I suppose the name might have been Christianized to replace an older heathen celebration.
Litha which is the opposite of Yule and celebrated at the summer solstice
Lammas, which I think like Walpurgisnacht is a latter Christian addition

Here's a good link, http://www.thorshof.org/zfestivals.htm, though I think that Aefentid will cover this in more detail when she returns from wherever she's got herself too. Although I must admit I'm a bit worried about her. :ugh:

mucgwyrt
May 28th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Coligny Calendar - whats that?

Walpurgisnacht - might be something to do with the Wulder Mothwench and Aefentid mentioned?

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
May 28th, 2004, 09:41 AM
Coligny Calendar - whats that?

Walpurgisnacht - might be something to do with the Wulder Mothwench and Aefentid mentioned?

Not sure about Wulder, might be smething to look into.

As for the Coligny calendar (btw, shouldn't we get back to the Heathens not the Celts? :eyebrow: ) it is a solar and lunar calendar found in Coligny France engraved on brass tablets. I've also heard it referred to as the Sequanii Calendar, because it was found in what would have been Sequanii territory. Not sure how accurate that is though, as I know little about the Gauls. Here's a good link about it, The Coligny Calendar Page (http://technovate.org/web/coligny.htm).

mucgwyrt
May 28th, 2004, 09:43 AM
Tttttteeeechnically I'm asking about Anglo-Saxons who have heathen heritage :graduate:

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
May 28th, 2004, 09:53 AM
:eyebrow: How does the Coligny Calendar fit into to that?

mothwench
May 28th, 2004, 10:05 AM
:lol: i don't know, but one of the things on my to do, to learn list is compare ancient calendars. thanks for the link. :)

as for the walpurgisnacht, there was i think a saint walburga, i will look into that and report back. my guess is that walburga was either a mythical figure or a heroine from pagan lore who's worship, and idolatry was incorperated into christian lore. didn't a similar thing happen to brigid?

and i doubt walburga has anything to do with wuldor/ullr but i'll keep an eye peeled for that as well. :)

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
May 28th, 2004, 10:45 AM
Yes. The Christians found that it would be impossible to eradicate the worship of Brigid so they instead incorporated her into their beliefs by making her saint. However, if I remember correctly in more modern times her sainthood has been revoked. I believe that this is happened to a lot of Saints whose actual existance cannot be verified.

mucgwyrt
May 28th, 2004, 10:50 AM
They did that ssssssoooo much. King Arthur for example, was Heathen. Easter. Yule. The list goes on :rolleyes:

Nantonos
May 28th, 2004, 11:11 AM
As for the Coligny calendar (btw, shouldn't we get back to the Heathens not the Celts? :eyebrow: ) it is a solar and lunar calendar found in Coligny France engraved on brass tablets.

(bronze - brass has zinc in it)


I've also heard it referred to as the Sequanii Calendar, because it was found in what would have been Sequanii territory. Not sure how accurate that is though,

Its accurate. Both of the Gaulish calendars that have been found were on Sequanni territory (between the river Doubs and the Jura mountains.)

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
May 28th, 2004, 11:25 AM
(bronze - brass has zinc in it)

I knew something sounded off when I was typing that. :ugh: Thanks for the correction.


Its accurate. Both of the Gaulish calendars that have been found were on Sequanni territory (between the river Doubs and the Jura mountains.)

Ahhh, glad to know that I wasn't getting bad info. Where I first saw that was a site chock full of bad information.

mothwench
May 30th, 2004, 01:56 PM
i was trying to find out the name of loki's hall today. it seems he hasn't got one. is that right? :huh:

Gala
May 31st, 2004, 11:54 AM
Hum.. don't know.. could it have been in Hel?

Nantonos
July 4th, 2004, 05:47 PM
http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/viking/frej.html

A nice photo of a bronze statue of Ing

linked from

http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/viking.html#frej

mucgwyrt
July 5th, 2004, 04:23 AM
Very nice!

I think I asked elsewhere but I think it got snowed under by GingerWitch messages - does anyone know why ing has an odd conical hat? I have also seen him depicted with semi-circular antlers.

FeatherGoblinglimmer
July 5th, 2004, 04:48 AM
Hel was Loki's daughters domain. I can't remember her name now, it's on the tip of my tongue... no, i can't remember.

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
July 5th, 2004, 09:40 AM
Loki's daughter was named Hel and technically her domain was Helheim FGG. Just thought I'd mention that. I'm assuming it's means something like Hel's home. I read something that says she was raised in Asgard by her father Loki, which makes it sound as if his home was Asgard and thus he doesn't have his own realm.

mothwench
July 5th, 2004, 12:37 PM
Very nice!

I think I asked elsewhere but I think it got snowed under by GingerWitch messages - does anyone know why ing has an odd conical hat? I have also seen him depicted with semi-circular antlers.

uh... no. well, unless it's phallic? did you ever see the ancient gold cone-hats they found strewn around europe? or hear of them? very interesting to say the least... IMO they look like the predecessors (sp? hehe) of wizard's hats... i'll see if i can find a link on google for ya.

edited to add: i did :D http://www.binref.com/phluzein/archives/-2003/09/08/bronzeage_german_coneheads.php

does it look anything like this, or is ing's hat different?

mucgwyrt
July 6th, 2004, 04:28 AM
Wierd!! no, it looks a bit different; like a conicular part-hat, with a baulble on the top. There's a picture of it in Nantonos's link: http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/viking/frej.html

Nantonos
July 18th, 2004, 01:02 PM
This is a modern sculpture, in bronze, about three feet high. It was sitting there unlabelled in a section of the museum that was being prepared for a later display and was serving as some sort of 'experience area' (ie, unlabelled exhibits and random juxtaposition of things like old swords with modern refles).

Interesting to note that one particular part of the statue was highly polished, presumably people giving it a quick rub as they walked past.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/photoalbum/displayimage.php?pos=-2980

http://www.mysticwicks.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/18360/normal_freyr.jpg

mucgwyrt
July 19th, 2004, 09:31 AM
:rotfl:

Seriously though, it's beautiful. I'd love to make one *plots* clay would be too expensive, metal too fiddley, and paper mache too flimsy...

mothwench
July 19th, 2004, 05:15 PM
Wierd!! no, it looks a bit different; like a conicular part-hat, with a baulble on the top. There's a picture of it in Nantonos's link: http://www.historiska.se/collections/treasures/viking/frej.html
oh, those are the neatest sculptures! :floating:
well, my opinion is that, since freyr likes to frolic in ljossalfheim, (i think that's his main homestead) and the likeness is apparent, he must be the primeval garden gnome.
seriously. *nod*

mothwench
July 19th, 2004, 05:15 PM
:rotfl:

Seriously though, it's beautiful. I'd love to make one *plots* clay would be too expensive, metal too fiddley, and paper mache too flimsy...

are you making clay willies yet? :hehehehe:

mucgwyrt
July 20th, 2004, 04:46 AM
oh, those are the neatest sculptures! :floating:
well, my opinion is that, since freyr likes to frolic in ljossalfheim, (i think that's his main homestead) and the likeness is apparent, he must be the primeval garden gnome.
seriously. *nod*

Never thought of that!
Maybe I could make a phallic Ing garden gnome?
How do you think that would go down with the neighbours?! :rotfl:

mothwench
July 20th, 2004, 05:37 AM
:rollingla:
:eyez: oo-arr. what's that then?

mucgwyrt
July 20th, 2004, 05:42 AM
:D

Our neighbours are gonna hate us when we move into our own place :lol:

edit: hey, do you think that the stereotypical gnome's fishing-rod is symbolic at all?! :bigredblu

mothwench
July 20th, 2004, 06:42 AM
:lol: i think it's symbolic of... a fishing rod. but you can hold on to that metaphor if you so very wish. :p

mucgwyrt
July 20th, 2004, 06:43 AM
:lol: I will, I fink it's kinky!
I'm never gonna look at those rosy pink cheeks in quite the same way, now! :doh2:

Nantonos
July 20th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Never thought of that!
Maybe I could make a phallic Ing garden gnome?
How do you think that would go down with the neighbours?! :rotfl:

Tries not to think about a brass gnome going down on the neighbors.

Fails.

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
July 20th, 2004, 11:55 AM
Tries not to think about a brass gnome going down on the neighbors.

Fails.

Thanks Nantonos, now I'm going to have that image in my head all day. :razz:

And I'm the kinky one??!! :bug:

mucgwyrt
July 20th, 2004, 11:56 AM
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

aefentid
August 27th, 2004, 09:31 PM
:boing: more questions:

odin:
he sacrifices one eye for a swig of Minir's well of wisdom. who is Minir, and is his/her well somehow connected to the well of wyrd?

Mimir, was one of the Aesir along with Hoenir, who were sent to the Vanir as hostages after the Aesir/Vanir war. The story is found in the Ynglings saga in I think chapter 4. The short version is that Hoenir relied on Mimir's wisdom and when Mimir wasn't around he would answer all of the Vanir's questions by saying, "Let others decide." The Vanir weren't happy about this so they cut off Mimir's head and sent it to the Aesir. Odin then preserved the head and learned wisdom from it.

As for the well it's said to lie under a root of yggdrasil and contain wisdom and all of human knowledge.According to the Prose Edda, Mimir guards the well and often drinks from it.


freyr:
who is beli the giant, and why does freyr kill him?
who is surt?

The story of Beli and Freyr is only mentioned in the Prose Edda, although a kenning of Freyr is " Killer of Beli", which makes me think that there was once a longer story about it. No reasons are given, all the Prose Edda mentions is that since Freyr had given away his sword he had to fight Beli with an antler, although he could've easily killed him with his fist.

I think someone else already answered your question about Surt.


mothy thoughts about freyr: i like the way the marriage between freyr and gerd is looked at as a marriage between heaven and earth. recently i read a sort of expansion on that theory, that freyr represented the warming sun of spring while gerd represented the frozen earth of winter, who only grudgeingly thaws to recieve and nurture freyr's seed.
Those are pretty much my thoughts as well.

I'll get to the rest of your questions in my next post.

in frith,
Æfentid

aefentid
August 28th, 2004, 12:59 AM
loki:[/B]
just how and why and in what way did loki give birth to sleipnir? :huh: who was sleipnir's father, er... mother? other parent?
did i ask how? ;)

After the Aesir/Vanir war, a giant disguised as a builder shows up and offer to rebuild the wall around Asgard that was knocked down during the war, and if he finishes it within a certain amount of time, with only the help of his horse Svadilfari, he wants Freyja, the sun, and the moon. On the advice of Loki the gods accept the offer. Unfortunately it turns out Svadilfari is super strong and does most of the work. Three days before the deadline the wall is almost done, and the gods demand that Loki do something to stop the wall from being completed. Loki shapeshifts into a mare and seduces Svadilfari keeping the wall from being finished and sometime later bears Sleipnir and presents him to Odin.


edited to add: loki's parent's were both giants. is it known what kind of giants, i.e. were they jotunn, thurse or rise? and then why is loki not a giant himself? he's never described as one. :huh:
I haven't seen any mention of what sort of giants his parents are. He is referred to as one of the Aesir by Snorri, but for the most part I think he's seen as a marginal or liminal figure in the lore, a chaotic element that doesn't fit into any category.


mothy thoughts on loki, or, a tree hugger/eco warrior's spin on baldr's death:
i see frigg demanding oaths from all these things and creatures a metaphor for humanity having overcome the majority of nature's perils, i.e. wild animals and adverse weather. the gods making a game of throwing things at baldr and putting him in (what would normally be) immediate danger is to me representative of abusing this "pact" frigg has made with nature. it's like nature extends a little finger, and the gods choose to grab the whole hand. so to me this story is very representative of the problems we face today, exploitation and pollution. and the resulting hole in the ozone layer, the flooding etc., is the manifestation of loki's "deceit".
:elf:

That's an interesting theory, one I haven't thought of before.

in frith,
Æfentid

aefentid
August 28th, 2004, 03:43 PM
Is there any lor on the Vanir before the Aesir? Does Loki figure in that lore? Wondering if Loki is a way to both resolve and enhance the tensions between Aesir and Vanir, being part of neither.

No, there isn't really any lore that details what went on before the Aesir/Vanir war. I don't really think Loki has anything to do with the relationship between the Aesir/Vanir.

in frith,
Æfentid

aefentid
August 28th, 2004, 04:00 PM
loki is a giant.... the giant thing puzzles me. when giants get the status of a god do they just shrink or something? not trying to be funny, it's just that loki's never depicted as a giant. neither is gerd, and really i have trouble imagining freyr and gerd... at it, if ya know what i mean... if she's a giant.
:huh:
:bigredblu embarrassing question, but it's been on my mind quite a while. :twitch:

One thing to keep in mind is that giants aren't always giant. I still get mixed up on all of the giant terminology, so this will probably be more help than me, here's Our Troths chapter on Etins

http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/etins.html

And here's a chapter that includes Gerd and other etin brides.
http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/skadi.html

in frith,
Æfentid

mothwench
September 1st, 2004, 06:44 PM
thanks aefentid. i liked that article about skadhi. she's on my mind alot lately. :smile:

anyway... i found something today while surfing... it's a link to a really interesting article about a viking statue of odin found at seahenge. they say odin was bisexual, and that he would shape-shift into a woman. which is a neat trick, i think, when did he do that? and why?
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040823/seahenge.html

Nantonos
September 2nd, 2004, 01:29 AM
thanks aefentid. i liked that article about skadhi. she's on my mind alot lately. :smile:

anyway... i found something today while surfing... it's a link to a really interesting article about a viking statue of odin found at seahenge. they say odin was bisexual, and that he would shape-shift into a woman. which is a neat trick, i think, when did he do that? and why?
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040823/seahenge.html

Wait wait .. a statue of Odin which


recently was radiocarbon dated to 2,250 B.C :jawdrop:

Does that mean
- it isn't Odin
- Odin is way way older than other evidence suggests

Mjollnir
September 2nd, 2004, 08:23 AM
I would like to know if you have to be "signed up" for this before you can post any comments here.

Nantonos
September 2nd, 2004, 10:17 AM
I would like to know if you have to be "signed up" for this before you can post any comments here.
No, gallop on up and comment away!

Mjollnir
September 2nd, 2004, 10:51 AM
If anyone does not mind, I had some things I wanted to maybe address regarding some of the responses so I would like to do them by response as opposed to making one huge post, it may take awhile but please bear with me since I am going to start at page one and work my way up so forgive me if I answer a question thats already been answered.

Mjollnir
September 2nd, 2004, 11:16 AM
Is there any lor on the Vanir before the Aesir? Does Loki figure in that lore? Wondering if Loki is a way to both resolve and enhance the tensions between Aesir and Vanir, being part of neither.


I have yet to come across anything in regards to lore about the Vanir except what it says about the Vanir being originally a group of wild nature and fertility gods and goddesses and the sworn enemies of the warrior gods of the Aesir. They were considered to be the bringers of health, youth, fertility, luck and wealth, and masters of magic.

Loki, although son of giants is considered one of the Aesir even though he is at times their enemy. He can be crafty as well as nasty and is comparable to the trickster in native american mythology. As far as resolving tensions between the Aesir and Vanir that was done with the sending of Mimir and Honir to the Vanir and the Vanir sent Njord, Freya and Freyr to the Aesir.

Mjollnir
September 2nd, 2004, 11:25 AM
okay, i've started my in depth study on lesson three, and i have a couple of questions about them all but i'll get to them later, right now i want to ask something about midgard i read in the creation part of the odin lesson (i'm writing it down quick so as not to forget my question :lol: ):
so the prose edda says
of his (Ymir's) brows the blithe gods made Midgard, for sons of men.
1. what's blithe, and 2. if the gods made Midgard from the brows, and the trees from his hair, sea from his sweat and whatnot, does that mean that the forests and oceans of the world are not actually part of midgard? does Midgard perhaps mean human settlements, villages, towns, cities and forts? if that is so, then which of the nine worlds is the sea, the wilderness, etc?

edited to add: :rolleyes: just realised i'm jumping ahead again. i should save this for the lesson on the nine worlds, shouldn't i? :toofless:


My copy of the prose Edda has neat little numbers next to passages with explanations in the back, I will get back to you on the blithe thing.

In regards to Ymir, this is from Encyclopedia Mythica:
"In Norse mythology, Ymir is the primordial giant and the progenitor of the race of frost giants. He was created from the melting ice of Niflheim, when it came in contact with the hot air from Muspell. From Ymir's sleeping body the first giants sprang forth: one of his legs fathered a son on his other leg while from under his armpit a man and women grew out.

The frost kept melting and from the drops the divine cow Audumla was created. From her udder flowed four rivers of milk, on which Ymir fed. The cow itself got nourishment by licking hoar frost and salt from the ice. On the evening on the first day the hair of a man appeared, on the second day the whole head and on the third day it became a man, Buri, the first god. His grandchildren are Odin, Ve and Vili.

Odin and his brothers had no liking for Ymir, nor for the growing number of giants, and killed him. In the huge amount of blood that flowed from Ymir's wounds all the giants, except two, drowned. From the slain body the brothers created heaven and earth. They used the flesh to fill the Ginnungagap; his blood to create the lakes and the seas; from his unbroken bones they made the mountains; the giant's teeth and the fragments of his shattered bones became rocks and boulders and stones; trees were made from his hair, and the clouds from his brains. Odin and his brothers raised Ymir's skull and made the sky from it and beneath its four corners they placed a dwarf. Finally, from Ymir's eyebrow they shaped Midgard, the realm of man. The maggots which swarmed in Ymir's flesh they gave wits and the shape of men, but they live under the hills and mountains. They are called dwarfs."



Midgard is the fortress around the middle part of the earth that was to alloted to men to protect them from the giants( Jotun) Midgard means "middle world" and is on the same level as Nidavellir (land of the dwarfs), Svartalfheim (land of the dark elves/dwarfs) and Jotunheim (the land of the giants).


As far as which world is the "...sea, the wilderness, etc?" it may be best to look up Yggdrasil and the 9 worlds.

Mjollnir
September 2nd, 2004, 12:46 PM
:boing: more questions:

odin:
he sacrifices one eye for a swig of Minir's well of wisdom. who is Minir, and is his/her well somehow connected to the well of wyrd?

freyr:
who is beli the giant, and why does freyr kill him?
who is surt?

mothy thoughts about freyr: i like the way the marriage between freyr and gerd is looked at as a marriage between heaven and earth. recently i read a sort of expansion on that theory, that freyr represented the warming sun of spring while gerd represented the frozen earth of winter, who only grudgeingly thaws to recieve and nurture freyr's seed.

loki:
just how and why and in what way did loki give birth to sleipnir? :huh: who was sleipnir's father, er... mother? other parent?
did i ask how? ;)
edited to add: loki's parent's were both giants. is it known what kind of giants, i.e. were they jotunn, thurse or rise? and then why is loki not a giant himself? he's never described as one. :huh:

mothy thoughts on loki, or, a tree hugger/eco warrior's spin on baldr's death:
i see frigg demanding oaths from all these things and creatures a metaphor for humanity having overcome the majority of nature's perils, i.e. wild animals and adverse weather. the gods making a game of throwing things at baldr and putting him in (what would normally be) immediate danger is to me representative of abusing this "pact" frigg has made with nature. it's like nature extends a little finger, and the gods choose to grab the whole hand. so to me this story is very representative of the problems we face today, exploitation and pollution. and the resulting hole in the ozone layer, the flooding etc., is the manifestation of loki's "deceit".
:elf:

In regards to Mimir, from Encyclopedia Mythica:
"Mimir is the giant in Norse mythology who guards the "Well of the Highest Wisdom", situated in Jotunheim under of the roots of Yggdrasil, the World Tree. He stands half-immersed in the water and on his powerful shoulders he is supporting the Kjolen Mountains. It is said that he has been standing there since the beginning of time and that with the passing of millennia he became part of the mountain itself."

Forgive my lapse of memory regarding Beli, I'll have more info later. Surt is a Fire Giant who lives in Muspelheim, the realm of fire to the south. he has this great fiery sword which shines brighter than the sun ( and uses it to slay Freyr, who gave his sword to his shield bearer Skirnir in hopes of winning the giantess Gerd as his wife after making the mistake of sitting on Odins throne Hlidskjalf and sees her,thereby becoming so smitten he cannot do anything but think of her and will do anything to get her...kinda sucks dont it?????). In Ragnarok, he is the one who sets the world on fire and burns it down by flinging fire in every direction.


Sleipnirs father was Loki and the mare was Svadilfari. A mason, which was a giant in disguise offered to repair the Midgard wall destroyed during the Aesir/Vanir war. He wanted payment of Freya as his wife as well as the sun and moon so they were pretty pissed, so Loki...theres a suprise...convinced them to agree if the wall was built in 6 months with no help. The mason agreed but wanted only the use of his horse...way to go Loki...and the Aesir soon learned that the work was going a LOT faster than they anticipated so they were naturally pretty steamed at Loki and told him he better come up with a way to outwit the mason. Loki transformed himself into a mare and came to the edge of the woods near the wall, whinnied, and Svadlifari took off a runnin' and Loki kept him "busy" till the next day. When Svadilfari returned it was too late to finish the work, the mason was pissed, revealed his true form and Thor split his skull like a walnut. A few months later Loki returned with an eight legged gray colt which he gave to Odin telling him his name was Sleipnir and he could travel over land, air and water.


i just know Loki's parents names, I cannot find mention of their race but I will keep looking.

Mjollnir
September 2nd, 2004, 01:03 PM
Loki's daughter was named Hel and technically her domain was Helheim FGG. Just thought I'd mention that. I'm assuming it's means something like Hel's home. I read something that says she was raised in Asgard by her father Loki, which makes it sound as if his home was Asgard and thus he doesn't have his own realm.


Hel was the youngest of Loki's children, Fenrir and Jormungand being the others. The gods took them from Angrbodas (Lokis mistress who bore the children) because they feared what Lokis children could become. odin threw Hel into Helheim where she would remain to guard over the dead that came to her, Fenrir was bound beneath the earth and jormungand was tossed into the sea where he grew so big he encircled the earth and bit his own tail.

Mjollnir
September 2nd, 2004, 01:06 PM
aefentid, I apologize if I stepped on your toes as it seems I answered the same questions you did, I just realized it as I started from the beginning and wound up towards the end seeing your replies.

Mjollnir
September 2nd, 2004, 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothwench
more questions:

odin:
he sacrifices one eye for a swig of Minir's well of wisdom. who is Minir, and is his/her well somehow connected to the well of wyrd?



Mimir, was one of the Aesir along with Hoenir, who were sent to the Vanir as hostages after the Aesir/Vanir war. The story is found in the Ynglings saga in I think chapter 4. The short version is that Hoenir relied on Mimir's wisdom and when Mimir wasn't around he would answer all of the Vanir's questions by saying, "Let others decide." The Vanir weren't happy about this so they cut off Mimir's head and sent it to the Aesir. Odin then preserved the head and learned wisdom from it.

As for the well it's said to lie under a root of yggdrasil and contain wisdom and all of human knowledge.According to the Prose Edda, Mimir guards the well and often drinks from it.



Interestingly enough some sources say that it is Mimirs head that guards the well and not a giant as I posted earlier in differentiating the two Mimir's.

mothwench
September 2nd, 2004, 02:39 PM
Wait wait .. a statue of Odin which

:jawdrop:

Does that mean
- it isn't Odin
- Odin is way way older than other evidence suggests

i would hazard the guess that it is in fact not odin. the only thing that points to it being odin is the mutilated left eye. could this not have happened by accident, or just erosion? wood-munching beetles, mebbe? perhaps it was a child's toy, the primeval action man, or G.I. Joe figure, and got it's eye poked out by the neighbor's kid's primeval barbie? ;)

it's just that i don't recall the discovery channel people as being fluffy about things like this. :huh:

mothwench
September 2nd, 2004, 02:40 PM
If anyone does not mind, I had some things I wanted to maybe address regarding some of the responses so I would like to do them by response as opposed to making one huge post, it may take awhile but please bear with me since I am going to start at page one and work my way up so forgive me if I answer a question thats already been answered.
thanks for your comments on my questions. it's always good to hear different oppinions. :cutie:

Gala
September 2nd, 2004, 07:19 PM
Wait wait .. a statue of Odin which

:jawdrop:

Does that mean
- it isn't Odin
- Odin is way way older than other evidence suggests

Perhaps Odin in some other "life" if that makes any sense.

mothwench
September 4th, 2004, 02:19 PM
ya know... remember when we talked about berchta in lesson 2? she leads the wild hunt interchangably with odin in some parts of germany and austria. that is the only thing that would lead me to the conclusion that odin might be bisexual, although, is bisexual even the right word here? wouldn't hermaphrodite be a more fitting description?

banondraig
September 6th, 2004, 09:39 AM
ya know... remember when we talked about berchta in lesson 2? she leads the wild hunt interchangably with odin in some parts of germany and austria. that is the only thing that would lead me to the conclusion that odin might be bisexual, although, is bisexual even the right word here? wouldn't hermaphrodite be a more fitting description?

i think they just said that because a one-eyed statue in anglo-saxon/norse territory must be one of Odin, right? and since they couldn't tell if the statue was of a male or a female, that constitutes new evidence that Odin was a shape shifter/hermaphrodite. :rolleyes: it's either the lightest of dandelion fluffs at work here, or there is more than they are sharing with us.

mothwench
September 6th, 2004, 12:08 PM
yeah. i think i'm going to go look for some other links about it. but it's discovery! they can't be fluffy, can they? :huh:

Wodening
September 8th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Oh they can be fluffy. Several Asatruar have written the museum to know the basis of their idea it was Odin. Thus far there is no evidence shown in the news articles to show it is indeed Odin and not some other being. My guess is, no, it is not as we have no tales of Odin being anything but male. Loki on the other hand....

Welga!
Swain

mothwench
September 8th, 2004, 05:27 PM
hmmm, writing to them's not a bad idea, i'll give it a try as well. thanks wodening. :smile:

mothwench
September 9th, 2004, 06:10 PM
oh, hey, i found another article:
http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED12%20Aug%202004%2022%3A38%3A17%3A163

which says nothing about odin, in fact

It is believed to be the earliest representation of the human figure in existence.

so... :razz: discovery channel!

and i found this:


Seahenge yields its 4,000-year-old secrets

SEAHENGE, the timber circle on the Norfolk coast that created a media furore five years ago, may well have been built where it was because of an earlier wooden monument close by. Another circle, made of two rings of split oak trees instead of one, lies only a hundred yards away and seems to be several centuries older.

Officially known as “Holme I” from the nearest village, the ring of posts around an upturned tree stump was swiftly dubbed “Seahenge” by the media when its existence was revealed in 1999. Archaeological investigations were hampered by self-styled “Druids”, but the timbers were eventually removed for conservation and dated by tree-ring analysis to around 2050BC. This put Seahenge into the same time frame as the bluestone circle of Stonehenge II, and into the age of the Beaker people who seem to have brought bronze-working to Britain.

Study of the timbers and their placing suggests that the circle was laid out in “panels”, and Mark Brennand, who directed the excavation, suggests in British Archaeology that their patterning indicates a labour force of 51 or 102 people and that the posts stood at least two metres high. An alignment on the rising midsummer sun to the northeast and the setting midwinter sun to the southwest may have governed the layout of the circle, Brennand believes.

He suggests that some of the posts may have been carved, pointing out that a pinewood human figure some 50cm (20in) high, found at Dagenham in the Thames marshes in 1912, has now been radiocarbon dated to between 2460BC and 1980BC.

The figure is similar to Iron Age wooden carvings from Scotland and Devon, and may indicate a long tradition of human effigies being deposited in wetlands: Seahenge was originally built in a salt marsh, onto which the sea has encroached over the past four millennia.

Support for this theory comes from the oldest human effigy in Britain, the hermaphroditic “god-dolly” found in the Somerset Levels in 1967 (The Times, August 21, 1967; November 29, 1968). Dated by radiocarbon to around 2900BC, the figure, which has both breasts and a penis, is only 15cm (6in) high. It was carved from ash wood, and deposited in the peat where a Neolithic trackway had been built across the wetland near Westhay.

The Westhay figure is both smaller and cruder, in every sense, than the Dagenham “dolly”. While at the time it was thought possibly to be a votive offering, a more mundane role as a child’s toy or just a piece of casual whittling was also mooted. However, the discovery of numerous wetland offerings of all kinds of materials in Britain in the intervening 37 years suggests that a ritual function is the most likely.

The second circle at Holme, dubbed “Holme II”, seems clearly to be of ritual significance also. “This structure is represented by two concentric rings of roughly split oak timbers surrounding an oak hurdle-lined pit containing two large oak logs”, Brennand reports. “There are good reasons for suggesting that the pit was a grave, and the wood was all that remained of a palisaded barrow, not unlike examples excavated in the Netherlands.”

The Norfolk coast faces the Dutch shore, and as evidence ranging from Beaker pottery in 2000BC to post-medieval architecture in King’s Lynn shows, cultural influence across the North Sea has been constant.

Radiocarbon dating shows that Holme II was built before “Seahenge”, between 2400BC and 2030BC, Brennand says, but the two monuments could have been in use together at some time around 2000BC. The remains of Holme II have been investigated, but will not be salvaged and reconstructed on dry land. Regular monitoring of the beach for further finds is being carried out: the seashore still has its surprises.

By Norman Hammond, Archaeology Correspondent TimesOnlineUK

Silent
November 17th, 2004, 06:54 AM
his mother was Laufey and he was half Ás and half jötunn(giant)

Mjollnir
November 17th, 2004, 04:12 PM
his mother was Laufey and he was half Ás and half jötunn(giant)


Where did you see that he was half As?? I have found a reference saying his father was Farbauti...who was a jotunn...and his mother as you indicated was also a jotunn. It says he is regarded as one of the Aesir, but is also at times an enemy as well....which we are all aware of.