Does the World need Hitler's from time to time?

[Keith Dragon]

Here's a question that for sure may cause some heated debate. Does Civilization as a whole, need the likes of Hitler, Saddam, or Osama to grow and learn and become a better place. Do they act as a wakeup call for us?

Any thoughts?

[mucgwyrt]

But it doesn't, does it?
We dont learn, do we? We just remake the old mistakes over and over and over.
I dont think it helps at all.

[Semele]

There is no doubt that the acts of monsters make an impact on all of us. It is what type of impact they make that separates us into the humans and monsters of the world. If it horrifies us we still belong in the humans category, when it begins to entertain us then we are becoming the same monster.

They have impacts, but if they weren't around, something else would impact us differently. I don't think they exist to fill some need or requirement for a good life experience. When we stop responding to it in a needy, hungry way, it will start to decrease in frequency.

[Nighthawk]

I agree with Semele....but, I have not seen that we really wake up, yet.. Someone on here has a phrase in their sig that says something like..."History tells us that no one learns from history" or something like that.

[mucgwyrt]

I agree with Semele....but, I have not seen that we really wake up, yet.. Someone on here has a phrase in their sig that says something like..."History tells us that no one learns from history" or something like that.

nantonos :smile:

Can you PM me your address again nighthawk? I accidentally deleted it :bigredblu

[Ben Trismegistus]

Need? No. But I don't think we can avoid them. Humanity is by nature imperfect - these sorts of megalomaniacs will always pop up from time to time.

But are they a cosmic lesson from God? I sure as hell hope not. There was ways to get a point across without killing 6 million people.

[Tzhebee]

Here's a question that for sure may cause some heated debate. Does Civilization as a whole, need the likes of Hitler, Saddam, or Osama to grow and learn and become a better place. Do they act as a wakeup call for us?

Any thoughts?
Well, I just throw my unpopular opinion in here and say yes...sort of. I don't necessarily believe that we *need* them to learn and grow from, because it's blatenly obvious that we haven't done either. But, I do believe that we need wake-up calls from time to time.

I'm sure it was entirely different for people on the East Coast or near NYC when the towers went down...but as I have no friends or family there, I have never visited, etc. I had no personal attachment and the whole thing seemed sureal. But it sure as hell opened my eyes as to how much I took my and my children's safety for granted.

Here's what I think. Humans in general have a short attention span and memory. Some major kind of crisis happens and we all freak out and go on "red alert" for a while. Then things calm back down, we get back into our routine and while we still remember what happened in the back of our mind, it is not blazing in front of our eyes, so we don't see it.

The "mastermind psycho's" (as I like to call them) realize this. It almost seems to me like they have this plan and purposely wait until we put our guard down again.

Osama attacked America. Now he (or another just like him) is just sitting and waiting for us to quit freaking out and going from Orange to Red to Yellow alert in a week. We'll vote Bush out, the new Pres will be in such a huff trying to "fix" everything that we will provide the prime opportunity to strike again.

If history repeated itself more frequently or in shorter (year wise) increments...then we'd remember and possibly stop making the same "mistakes".

[RogueEcho]

Here's a question that for sure may cause some heated debate. Does Civilization as a whole, need the likes of Hitler, Saddam, or Osama to grow and learn and become a better place. Do they act as a wakeup call for us?

Any thoughts?



To this I respond:

If we ask that question, we must then ask.....does civilization, society, the world....need us?

[Keith Dragon]

To this I respond:

If we ask that question, we must then ask.....does civilization, society, the world....need us?
Yes. But let me expound upon my statment.

It is my belief that civilizations tend to flow between two extremes, for an example let me use War and Peace, where as if the society as a whole, begins to lean too far in one direction, it will begin to accumulate more power over the other and begin to accelarate further from center. When this occurs, One Person in the society will arrise to push it along as they see fit, ie Hitler. But for every Hitler, there is an opposing force that arrises to counter it, like Winston Churchill and/or Roosevelt, to pull it back to center.

But it takes the rise of this Hitler character to illustrate how far things have gotten to one extreme, so we can fight it and bring it back to balance.

This may also work in reverse by moving to far to peace, someone will rise to keep the chaotic system in balance.

WOuld this not coincide with many philosophical arguements about opposing forces, ie Dark and Light, Yin and Yang.

Just a thought

Dragon

[Crystal_Raye]

We need some of Hitler's honor, organization, and disapline but not his hatred, violance, and ego.

[banondraig]

There is no doubt that the acts of monsters make an impact on all of us. It is what type of impact they make that separates us into the humans and monsters of the world. If it horrifies us we still belong in the humans category, when it begins to entertain us then we are becoming the same monster.

They have impacts, but if they weren't around, something else would impact us differently. I don't think they exist to fill some need or requirement for a good life experience. When we stop responding to it in a needy, hungry way, it will start to decrease in frequency.

it's easy to call people who do very bad things monsters. however, they came into the world naked and squalling just like the rest of us. everyone is capable of atrocity if pushed far enough, however, most of us are never pushed anywhere near that limit.

so i think "monsters" are necessary to keep us from slipping into complacency, on both an individual and a collective level.

[morrigen]

Yes. But let me expound upon my statment.

It is my belief that civilizations tend to flow between two extremes, for an example let me use War and Peace, where as if the society as a whole, begins to lean too far in one direction, it will begin to accumulate more power over the other and begin to accelarate further from center. When this occurs, One Person in the society will arrise to push it along as they see fit, ie Hitler. But for every Hitler, there is an opposing force that arrises to counter it, like Winston Churchill and/or Roosevelt, to pull it back to center.

But it takes the rise of this Hitler character to illustrate how far things have gotten to one extreme, so we can fight it and bring it back to balance.

This may also work in reverse by moving to far to peace, someone will rise to keep the chaotic system in balance.

WOuld this not coincide with many philosophical arguements about opposing forces, ie Dark and Light, Yin and Yang.

Just a thought

Dragon

This thesis works from the point of view that the opposing forces are polar opposites. Axis were the "bad guys" ad the Allies were the "good guys".

But. Winston Churchill was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.
Hitler was responsible for atrocities beyond imagining. The images of concentration camps will live on in history as a reminder of the depths of human depravity.

Alongside those images should live pictures of the atrocities commited by the Allies. The ones we don't hear about, because history is written by the victors.

We don't end up with good vs evil because of a pendulum shift to one extreme or another.

We end up with war. And when discussing war it is very naive to assume all of the propaganda is correct.

[Morr]

history is history.
And people are people.
And from my experience, its very simple -
(I'm not going to use extreme cases like Hitler, because I havent experienced that)

Here in Israel, theres always a cylce of bloodshed with us & the palastinians. We've gotten used to the situation so th speak, HOWEVER, after Israel knocks off one of the head leaders of Hammas/terror groups - You can FEEL the tension & fear & caution everywhere... however, then a few days pass by, people calm down and "forget" the threats of the terror groups and what had happened... and all of a sudden - BAM..
Then it starts again... and youre aware of the past, you know about the conflict, you hear about the threats the terrorists make... but it mixes with your daily life, and your known history, and its like the calm before the storm. Everyone is like "yeah this is the situation, but its not going to happen to me"... and then it happens to you. Of course, then youre out for revenge, hence Israel assasinating Terror leaders, etc...

Same with 9/11 - Its obvious, that there was a big hoopla (understandable) after the twins went down and the other two planes crashed. But i think that in the past year or so, people have sort of forgotten. NOT about what had happened, but about the big panic, and the effects of it. People let their guard off slowly, yet surely. People forget or at least get this false sense of security. As I've said - The calm before the storm.

And I have no doubt Bin Laden will strike again, maybe worse (i sure hope not).

Its these kind of periods, where a socity lets its guard down BECAUSE it forgets/has other things happening/time passes by/etc, that lets these extreme people & leaders rise up to power and do what they do.. And then when theyre up there in power, or after they have done what theyve done - The world is like "What? How did THEY get into power and manage to do THAT?!"


lol i babble a lot.. i hope i made my point clear..

[WrathofCirce]

Can good really exist without bad?

[morrigen]

Can good really exist without bad?

I really don't think anything is wholly good or evil.

Life just doesn't seem to present situations that are completely polarized. Look hard enough at anything and you will find shades of grey that don't support black and white theories.

I'll stop now..I'm starting to think in mixed metaphors :D

[asamananara]

Humanity does not exist apart from nature. Our actions are
an expression of natural tendencies. Nature tends to balance
the population of a species which strains a closed ecosystem
through starvation, disease, and displacement. Our dependence
upon science and technology, which are themselves an organic
extention of our innate inclinations, has placed humanity in
the precarious situation of increasing it's population while exceeding
it's available resources, circumventing nature's usual balances.
Hitler and his ilk are an organic response to impending extinction.
While reducing the exponential increase in population, the crisis
introduced through warfare spurs techological innovation, allowing
the species to utilize it's resources more efficiently. Would
we, as a species, be better off had WWII never occured? It's
hard to say, but with nearly a billion more people trying to survive
with pre-1930's technology and social structures, it wouldn't be comfortable.
My guess? We will continue to witness the mass termination of
life at the hands of our own, always proportional to the "advances"
in science and medicine which allow us to cheat nature's laws.

[morrigen]

Humanity does not exist apart from nature. Our actions are
an expression of natural tendencies. Nature tends to balance
the population of a species which strains a closed ecosystem
through starvation, disease, and displacement. Our dependence
upon science and technology, which are themselves an organic
extention of our innate inclinations, has placed humanity in
the precarious situation of increasing it's population while exceeding
it's available resources, circumventing nature's usual balances.
Hitler and his ilk are an organic response to impending extinction.
While reducing the exponential increase in population, the crisis
introduced through warfare spurs techological innovation, allowing
the species to utilize it's resources more efficiently. Would
we, as a species, be better off had WWII never occured? It's
hard to say, but with nearly a billion more people trying to survive
with pre-1930's technology and social structures, it wouldn't be comfortable.
My guess? We will continue to witness the mass termination of
life at the hands of our own, always proportional to the "advances"
in science and medicine which allow us to cheat nature's laws.

Indeed. This is another feasible theory, and while I 'm not sure I subscribe to it, it certainly has alot of merit.

whenn you look at how prosperous those who survived the black plague pandemic became...and everything that directly resulted from it (the renaissance...), you really have to wonder if the occasional random culling isn't part of nature's plan.

Perhaps the human drive to violence is a self regulating measure?

[Arinya]

The only reason people seek a Hitler (or someone claiming to say they know the right way to do things) is because as a culture civilized humans don't know how to live. They want someone to tell them the "one right way" and they seek Hitler's, Osama's, anyone who will tell them the "one right way" even if it turns out to be the worst way imaginable.

[asamananara]

Perhaps the human drive to violence is a self regulating measure?
Perhaps. How could we play god without dancing with the devil?

[WrathofCirce]

I really don't think anything is wholly good or evil.

Life just doesn't seem to present situations that are completely polarized. Look hard enough at anything and you will find shades of grey that don't support black and white theories.

I'll stop now..I'm starting to think in mixed metaphors :D

But that's just it. Hitler himself did some very positive things for Germany, and started out with the best of intentions. His idealism just became fanaticism, and the good quickly turned to evil.

[WrathofCirce]

After I posted the last, I got to thinking. We are all just one step away from being Hitler or being Princess Diana. I think everyone has in them both the capacity for extream good or extream evil. In political pagan there is a thread about three children who were beheaded. The thread quickly turned to the desire for vengence, and for corporal punishment. Folks were calling for dismemberment of the alleged killer and many agreed that we should start removing limbs as a punishment to crimes. Personally, I see that as the path to evil. Whenever an injustice is done, we have to be very careful not to let our base instincts take over. Humans have always had a bloodlust. In theory, it sounds reasonable to want to take revenge, but what happens when your passions take the front seat and your intellect the rear? That old addage about the path to hell being paved with good intentions is very very true.
There have always been, and will always be Hitlers and thankfully, there have always been and will always be Princess Dianas.

[banondraig]

Humanity does not exist apart from nature. Our actions are
an expression of natural tendencies. Nature tends to balance
the population of a species which strains a closed ecosystem
through starvation, disease, and displacement. Our dependence
upon science and technology, which are themselves an organic
extention of our innate inclinations, has placed humanity in
the precarious situation of increasing it's population while exceeding
it's available resources, circumventing nature's usual balances.
Hitler and his ilk are an organic response to impending extinction.
While reducing the exponential increase in population, the crisis
introduced through warfare spurs techological innovation, allowing
the species to utilize it's resources more efficiently. Would
we, as a species, be better off had WWII never occured? It's
hard to say, but with nearly a billion more people trying to survive
with pre-1930's technology and social structures, it wouldn't be comfortable.
My guess? We will continue to witness the mass termination of
life at the hands of our own, always proportional to the "advances"
in science and medicine which allow us to cheat nature's laws.

this theory reminds me of the population regulation of lemmings, with the "bad guys" serving as the brain chemical tht make them throw themselves over cliffs. it does have a certain elegance to it.