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RubyRose
May 25th, 2004, 05:11 AM
I've always assumed that Cernunnos and the Green Man were one and the same God, only now it seems (or at least as far as research tells me) that they are two different Gods. Can anybody help me clear this up? Is it a common misconception?
Blessings,
RubyRose

mothwench
May 25th, 2004, 06:31 AM
hi rr, i can only link you to this article right now, cause i gotta sign off, i might be back later and actually have something to say. :bigredblu

http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/greenmen.htm

RubyRose
May 25th, 2004, 08:35 AM
Thanks Mothwench

raven grimassi
May 31st, 2004, 01:12 PM
I've always assumed that Cernunnos and the Green Man were one and the same God, only now it seems (or at least as far as research tells me) that they are two different Gods. Can anybody help me clear this up? Is it a common misconception?
Blessings,
RubyRose

Take heart, for there seems to actually be an authentic connection between Cernunnos and the Green Man. This is especially true when we compare Dionysos with Cernnunos. The cult of Dionysos was firmly rooted in Celtic lands during the centuries of Roman occupation, and several ancient writers refer to a Dionysos sect among the Druids. There is little doubt that some integration took place between some Celtic deities and those of the Romans.

An interesting side note is that the earliest Celtic image of a Green Man appears in the 5th century B.C.E. and is actually a blend of Etruscan art with that of the Celtic La Tene culture. This suggests a merging of southern and northern European elements.

Concerning Dionysos, he is an ancient Green Man figure (wearing a crown of grapevine and carrying a staff of fennel topped with a pinecone). You can read more about him, his Green Man connection, and his influence on Celtic religious concepts in: Green Man - The Archetype of our Oneness with the Earth, by William Anderson. And in my book The Wiccan Mysteries. A good source in general for the Green Man himself is the book Green Man by John Matthews.

Blessed be - Raven Grimassi

mothwench
May 31st, 2004, 02:21 PM
An interesting side note is that the earliest Celtic image of a Green Man appears in the 5th century B.C.E. and is actually a blend of Etruscan art with that of the Celtic La Tene culture. This suggests a merging of southern and northern European elements.


can you elaborate on that a little? i tried finding something out by using google, but i found nothing. what kind of image is it (i.e. stone statue, bronze ornamental thingy, you know...)?
and where was it found?

mothwench
September 5th, 2004, 03:37 PM
just bumping this, hoping raven grimassi will see it and answer. :)

Moonstoned
September 5th, 2004, 04:22 PM
just bumping this, hoping raven grimassi will see it and answer. :)

I have a book by this man, Mike Harding, whose interest is in Green Man images. I haven't checked the site but it might tell you more.

http://www.mikeharding.co.uk

Moonstoned
September 5th, 2004, 04:31 PM
I just had a quick look, the one raven mentioned doesn't seem to be in there, sorry

mothwench
September 5th, 2004, 04:47 PM
nope, but it was an interesting read, nontheless. :smile: thanks!

teishabee
September 5th, 2004, 04:53 PM
The green man can be seen depicted (sp) on many churches. Like the garyoles he is seen as a image to reflect eveils and bring protection to the place. His image is usually of follage making up the face of either a man or surprising in some cases a woman.

I think of the green man as a spirit in the forrests an image which represents the link between diety and nature and not a diety itself.

Seren_
September 5th, 2004, 06:16 PM
I think it depends on how you define a Green Man...And it depends on your perspective...

Most commonly (modernly, if that's a word...) it refers to those found on church buildings (and some secular buildings) from around the twelfth century onwards (up until around the 16th, IIRC). In this sense they can be interpreted as being specifically Christian in context, and there are various theories as to what they could signify. Protector-type figures as Teishabee said, or something else.

They can be seen as just foliate-headed masks, or taken in a broader context with more "obscene" figures like Sheila-na-Gigs, and various "copulating figures", or Wild Men (men with their bits out, like our Sheila) found on a lot of churches.

Taken out of a Christian context, I do believe the foliate-type masks/heads/gods/whatever are depicted back into pagan times, in France for example (IIRC), as well as the Rhineland regions and Rome itself, I think. I'm not sure of the dates, but in academic circles they are generally regarded as "prototypes" of the "churchy" Green Men; those found in a more Christian context (or dating) generally appear more demonic than their earlier counterparts, and I think there might be something of a time gap between the two. Whether they are the same figure, or just a motif adopted through the ages is open to debate I guess. It has to be said, academic types do tend to be sceptics :)

People like Margaret Murray have interpreted the more modern, Christian type masks as being a hangover of a pagan god, evidence of the "Old Religion" and all that. This isn't solely to do with Murray. A lot of these "green men" were defaced or scrubbed off in churches during the Reformation because they were seen as pagan or idolatrous (Dunblane cathedral being an example that I've seen, say). But like a lot of things, while they might be considered pagan at some point in history like the Reformation, they aren't necessarily.

cartweel
September 5th, 2004, 08:15 PM
I've always seen the 'Green Man' as a spirit who exemplified the soul of nature. Sort of like 'Mother Earth' in male form. I sometimes compare him to both Sylvanus and Dionysus; he is the father of the forest and also a young, verile, playful spirit. I see him in my patron, Iarilo.

RubyRose
September 6th, 2004, 12:59 AM
I find it rather interesting that this thread should be revived while I'm working on a database that will eventually include both Cernunnos and The Green Man as two separate deity's while linked with similarities. :lol: Celtic Deities are so confusing at times, I find, with several only having been written into records once, its hard to disassociate the similar from the dissimilar. But I'll get there. Thanks to all those who offered up new insight for me to ponder.
Bendithion,
RubyRose

Nantonos
September 6th, 2004, 12:49 PM
I find it rather interesting that this thread should be revived while I'm working on a database that will eventually include both Cernunnos and The Green Man as two separate deity's while linked with similarities. :lol: Celtic Deities are so confusing at times, I find, with several only having been written into records once,

Hoping you are not referring to Cernunnos there - Hutton tries to pass Cernunnos off as having a single inscription, but in fact there are four.

:reindeer: :reindeer: :reindeer: :reindeer:

plus uninscribed statues etc of course.

raven grimassi
September 6th, 2004, 01:40 PM
can you elaborate on that a little? i tried finding something out by using google, but i found nothing. what kind of image is it (i.e. stone statue, bronze ornamental thingy, you know...)?
and where was it found?

It's carved into stone, and today it is called the St. Goar pillar. A drawing of it appears in the book Green Man, by William Anderson on page 40 (HarperSanFrancisco, 1990).

Best regards - Raven

Seren_
September 6th, 2004, 01:51 PM
Hoping you are not referring to Cernunnos there - Hutton tries to pass Cernunnos off as having a single inscription, but in fact there are four.

:reindeer: :reindeer: :reindeer: :reindeer:

plus uninscribed statues etc of course.

I never knew that! Do you know where they're from?

mothwench
September 6th, 2004, 02:03 PM
It's carved into stone, and today it is called the St. Goar pillar. A drawing of it appears in the book Green Man, by William Anderson on page 40 (HarperSanFrancisco, 1990).

Best regards - Raven


:floating: thanks so much, i found the image: http://gate.cia.edu/cbergengren/arthistory/celtic/

this is an excellent page, by the way, well worth a look if you're interested in celtic images.

if you scroll up you'll see the prince of glauberg, with a similar halo-esque headdress. i was at the glauberg exhibition, and the general archeologist's interpretation of the headdress is in fact mistletoe leaves, so yeah, it may well be the first green man.
however the symbology was way different then, cause it was a chieftain's headdress, so an indication of power rather than one of a forest being...
i did think, when i was at the exhibition, that the "mistletoe" looked more like curved horns, but that might just have been weird ole me... :smile:

edited to add: damn, i tried to link to the part of the page that shows the pillar, but it just links to the top of the page. :twitch: so you'll have to scroll down a little.

look for this:

Title: Pfalzfeld Pillar, drawing of
Date: 300-500 BC
Style: La Tene
Location: Pfalzfeld, St. Goar, Germany



A more abstract image of a possible Celtic king is on the "obelisk" found at Pfalzfeld, Austria (Figure 43 and 44). Originally more than twice as tall, the whole "column" bulges and seethes with chthonian organic shapes. A head, similarly crowned by mistletoe is carved part way up the "pillar", and another one is believed originally to have set on the top. Some people also detect an image of a female in the curving, curling shapes; if such a pun were intended the head would be birthing between her legs. In any event it is significant that the head has no body of its own, for the Celts were headhunters , who displayed severed heads wherever they could. Another (shorter and more stubby, but nonetheless phallic) carved stone from Turoe, Ireland (Figure30), possibly associated with the inauguration of Irish Kings, is entirely abstract (no heads or body references). Despite its smaller size, the curvilinear La Tene patterns pulse and interpenetrate no less vigorously. It is their special glory that positive and negative shapes meld and flow, visually oscillating (like the more tangible punning images) from one perception to the other. The Celtic artist does not want his image to stand still or be conceptually fixed and definite. (I believe it is their very point that the elements of the Natural world they revered --so apparently separate in species and kind--participated in each other far more than seems on the surface.)

Nantonos
September 6th, 2004, 02:14 PM
It's carved into stone, and today it is called the St. Goar pillar. A drawing of it appears in the book Green Man, by William Anderson on page 40 (HarperSanFrancisco, 1990).

Best regards - Raven

I found a passing mention of this ( the publication date given was 1993, a German edition of Anderson by Walter Verlag):


Faszinierend, wo dieser Grüne Mann, ist man erst einmal auf ihn aufmerksam geworden, überall auftaucht. Er begegnete mir an der Stuckdecke des Tassilosaales in Wessobrunn in Bayern, genauso wie auf den wenigen noch vorhandenen Schlußsteinen der Kirche eines Benediktinerklosters auf dem Disibodenberg in Rheinland-Pfalz. Seine Ursprünge sind sicherlich sehr alt und liegen weit vor unserem christlichen Zeitalter. Eine der ältesten bekannten Abbildungen ist eine Säule von St. Goar aus dem 5. Jahrhundert v. Chr., die den Laubkopf einer Gottheit zeigt (vgl. Anderson 1993, S. 53). In den gleichen Zeitraum gehören Abbildungen des Dionysos, die Assoziationen zum Grünen Mann zulassen. „Dionysos als Gott der Vegetation, Verursacher des heiligen Wahnsinns und des Rausches, oder aber als Enthüller der Mysterien der kreativen Lebenskräfte und der Unterwelt, war eine der universellen Manifestationen der archetypischen gemeinsamen Quelle des Grünen Mannes (...)." (Anderson 1993, S. 45 f.)
„Wolfsfrau" trifft „Green man"
Über Natur – Weiblichkeit und Männlichkeit
http://www.die-frankfurt.de/esprid/dokumente/doc-2000/koch-weser00_01.htm

Aelfoak
September 10th, 2004, 08:57 AM
I hope this helps :D

Cernunnos:

"The Horned One" is a Celtic god of fertility, life, animals, wealth, and the underworld. He was worshipped all over Gaul, and his cult spread into Britain as well. Cernunnos is depicted with the antlers of a stag, sometimes carries a purse filled with coin. The Horned God is born at the winter solstice, marries the goddess at Beltane, and dies at the summer solstice. He alternates with the goddess of the moon in ruling over life and death, continuing the cycle of death, rebirth and reincarnation.

Paleolithic cave paintings found in France that depict a stag standing upright or a man dressed in stag costume seem to indicate that Cernunnos' origins date to those times. Romans sometimes portrayed him with three cranes flying above his head. Known to the Druids as Hu Gadarn. God of the underworld and astral planes. The consort of the great goddess. He was often depicted holding a bag of money, or accompanied by a ram-headed serpent and a stag. Most notably is the famous Gundestrup cauldron discovered in Denmark.

Green Man:

A legendary pagan deity who roams the woodlands of the British Isles and Europe. He usually is depicted as a horned man peering out of a mask of foliage, usually the sacred oak. He is known by other names such as "Green Jack, "Jack-in-the-Green" and "Green George." He represents spirits of trees, plants and foliage. It is believed he has rain making powers to foster livestock with lush meadows. He was frequently depicted in medieval art, including church decorations.
Green George, as he is usually called in spring Pagan rites, is represented by a young man dressed head to foot in greenery, who leads the festival procession. In various festivals, Green George, or an effigy of him, is dunked in a river or pond to ensure that there will be enough rain to make the meadows and pastures green. It is also believed by some the Green Man shares an affinity with the forest-dwelling fairies since green is the fairy color. In some locals of the British Isles the fairies are called "Greenies" and "Greencoaties." In the myth of "The Fairy Children," there appears two fairy children, a brother and a sister, who have green skin and claim to be of a race with green skin

Moonstoned
September 10th, 2004, 09:04 AM
:floating: thanks so much, i found the image: http://gate.cia.edu/cbergengren/arthistory/celtic/

this is an excellent page, by the way, well worth a look if you're interested in celtic images.


That IS an excellent page. I love the Roman image of the Celts in raincoats, haven't seen that before.

Do you know. I'm not seeing that as mistletoe either, but what do I know? :imout:

RubyRose
September 10th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Hoping you are not referring to Cernunnos there - Hutton tries to pass Cernunnos off as having a single inscription, but in fact there are four.

:reindeer: :reindeer: :reindeer: :reindeer:

plus uninscribed statues etc of course.

No, I'm just stating rather broadly that some Celtic deities only have one written reference, pertaining to them.

I don't really know enough about Cernunnos to comment on whats out there in the world about him.

RubyRose
September 10th, 2004, 11:53 AM
I hope this helps :D

Cernunnos:

"The Horned One" is a Celtic god of fertility, life, animals, wealth, and the underworld. He was worshipped all over Gaul, and his cult spread into Britain as well. Cernunnos is depicted with the antlers of a stag, sometimes carries a purse filled with coin. The Horned God is born at the winter solstice, marries the goddess at Beltane, and dies at the summer solstice. He alternates with the goddess of the moon in ruling over life and death, continuing the cycle of death, rebirth and reincarnation.

Paleolithic cave paintings found in France that depict a stag standing upright or a man dressed in stag costume seem to indicate that Cernunnos' origins date to those times. Romans sometimes portrayed him with three cranes flying above his head. Known to the Druids as Hu Gadarn. God of the underworld and astral planes. The consort of the great goddess. He was often depicted holding a bag of money, or accompanied by a ram-headed serpent and a stag. Most notably is the famous Gundestrup cauldron discovered in Denmark.

Green Man:

A legendary pagan deity who roams the woodlands of the British Isles and Europe. He usually is depicted as a horned man peering out of a mask of foliage, usually the sacred oak. He is known by other names such as "Green Jack, "Jack-in-the-Green" and "Green George." He represents spirits of trees, plants and foliage. It is believed he has rain making powers to foster livestock with lush meadows. He was frequently depicted in medieval art, including church decorations.
Green George, as he is usually called in spring Pagan rites, is represented by a young man dressed head to foot in greenery, who leads the festival procession. In various festivals, Green George, or an effigy of him, is dunked in a river or pond to ensure that there will be enough rain to make the meadows and pastures green. It is also believed by some the Green Man shares an affinity with the forest-dwelling fairies since green is the fairy color. In some locals of the British Isles the fairies are called "Greenies" and "Greencoaties." In the myth of "The Fairy Children," there appears two fairy children, a brother and a sister, who have green skin and claim to be of a race with green skin

Thanks very much that seems to shed a little bit more light on the topic.

Nantonos
September 11th, 2004, 01:23 AM
No, I'm just stating rather broadly that some Celtic deities only have one written reference, pertaining to them.

I don't really know enough about Cernunnos to comment on whats out there in the world about him.

Okay, thanks for the clarification (and I agree with you).

Nantonos
September 11th, 2004, 01:25 AM
That IS an excellent page. I love the Roman image of the Celts in raincoats, haven't seen that before.

Its called a sagum, in gaulish, and is a hooded claok made from raw wool (wool that has not had the natural oils takenoff it). It was specific to Gaul. There are several mosaic, frescoes etc shouwing it being worn, and a rather nice bronze statue of a Gaulish plowman wearing one.


Do you know. I'm not seeing that as mistletoe either, but what do I know? :imout:

Its supposed to be mistletoe but, having see the actual plant, it doesnt have round ended leaves like that - they are more pointed.

Nantonos
September 11th, 2004, 01:38 AM
I hope this helps :D

Citing the source would have helped more. Its an article written by Dr Anthony E. Smith on pantheism.org
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/cernunnos.html

I will comment on the individual portions of his Cernunnos entry:


Cernunnos:

"The Horned One" is a Celtic god of fertility, life, animals, wealth, and the underworld.
Yes, Cernunnos is Celtic, as the name shows (its Gaulish) and as the distribution of Cerninnos inscriptions and statues demonstrates. The connection with fertility has been over emphasised, mainly in the 19thand 20th century, by conflation with various phallic figures such as the Eliphas Levi Baphomet, to make the Wiccan Horned God. Some of the attributes listed are more apptopriate to thatlatter deity than to Cernunnos.

Life, wealth, animals both domesticated and wild, are certainly aspects borne out in the sculptured works.


He was worshipped all over Gaul, and his cult spread into Britain as well.
Over most of Gaul yes, and pasts of Germanis too (but only in the Roman parts) and in North Italy (again in te Celtic parts). Cernunnos is not well attested in Britain and the few examples are more likely due to trade than to native manufacture.


Cernunnos is depicted with the antlers of a stag, sometimes carries a purse filled with coin.
Yes.


The Horned God is born at the winter solstice, marries the goddess at Beltane, and dies at the summer solstice. He alternates with the goddess of the moon in ruling over life and death, continuing the cycle of death, rebirth and reincarnation.
All of that is modern Wiccan belief and has nothing to do with Cernunnos at all.


Paleolithic cave paintings found in France that depict a stag standing upright or a man dressed in stag costume seem to indicate that Cernunnos' origins date to those times.
Possibly. Carvings at Val Camonica in the Alps also indicate an origin there.


Romans sometimes portrayed him with three cranes flying above his head.
This is completely wrong:
- it wasn't the Romans, but the sailors of the Celtic Parisii
- it wasn't Cernunnos, but Tarvos Trigaranus (whose name means 'the bull with the three cranes'


Known to the Druids as Hu Gadarn.
There is no evidence for this whatsoever. It seems to be made up.


God of the underworld and astral planes.
An underworld association is indicated by the presence of a rat on the reims statue. This is a bit tenuous. The stuff about the astral planes is 19th/20th century invention.


The consort of the great goddess.
20th century Wicca.


He was often depicted holding a bag of money, or accompanied by a ram-headed serpent and a stag.
Yes. Although an un-named deity called the 'Celtic Mars' is also shown with a ram headed serpent as well.

[/quote]Most notably is the famous Gundestrup cauldron discovered in Denmark.[/quote]
(That isn't even a sentence.) Yes, Cernunnos is depicted on the Gundestrup caluldron along with Taranis, and two goddesses, and some other figures of uncertain identification.

Nantonos
September 11th, 2004, 01:45 AM
I never knew that! Do you know where they're from?

Yes. I wrote about this in email on another list, so i will paste in my reply to the same question you just asked. Its long.

There are four inscriptions known to date[1]:

1) [C]ERNUNNO[S] (Gaulish, used in a Latin context)
2) CARNONOS (Gaulish)
3) DEO CERUNINCO (Gaulish Latinized)
4) DEO CERUNINCO (Gaulish Latinized)

1) is from the Pilier des Nautae Parisiaci from Lutece (modern Paris).
This is a substantial stone monument in the form of a square-section
pilar, in sections, with carvings on all four faces and several stages
of such carvings. Similar pilars (but with entirely Roman mythological
scenes) are well attested. This one was found in 1710 underneath
Notre-Dame cathedral, on the site of a temple from the rebuilt town of
Lutece, civitas of the Parisii, and first published by Baudelot de
Dairval in 1712. It used to be on display in the basement of the Musée
du Moyen-Age in Paris (which is in fact a re-used roman bath house) but
when I revisited this autumn it was not there. I was told it is
currently in storage as the building is undergoing restoration.

It is generally dated to 14 ce, the accession of Tiberius Claudius
Nero, because of the dedicatory inscription and is one of the
earliest pieces of representational Gaulish art which
also carry a written inscription.

The block holding Cernunnos, Esus, Castor and Pollux has been broken in
half and we only have the top half, so we have the dedication and
Cernunos from the shoulders up. From this, and given the size of the
other blocks and the poses on the other three faces, he must have been
sitting cross legged on the floor as there is insufficient room for a
standing or seated on a chair posture.

Dating as it does from the very beginnings of the Augustan integration
of Gaul (remember the period between Ceasars conquest of the 50s bce and
Augustus in 27 bce was mainly taken up with a bit of a civil war in
Rome) it is interesting to see the mixture of Roman and Gaulish
mythology on this large pilar. By mixed I mean both types occur on
different parts of the same sculpture, not mixed as in the later
syncretization of Roman and Gaulish mythology. More on the pillar in CAG
[2]. The inscription is published in RIG 2-1 [3] and in CIL [4]

CIL 13, 03026 = ILTG 331 = AE 1959, 0062.
Tib(erio) Caesare / Aug(usto)
Iovi Optum[o] / Maxsumo / nautae
Parisiaci / publice posierunt(!) //
Eurises // Senani U[s]eiloni(?) //
Iovis // Tarvos(?) Trigaranus //
Volcanus // Esus //
[C]ernunnos // Castor // [3] //
Smeri[3]os //
Fort[una?] // ]TVS[

My reading (and photos from CAG confirm) shows some defaced/illegible
letters after 'maxsumo':
TIB.CAESARAE
AVG.IOVI.OPTVM[o]
MAXSVMO [3]
NAUTAE PARISIACI
[pv]BLICE.POSIERV[nt]


2) is written in Greek lettering and is from south central Gaul (Jufer
and Luginbühl don't give a precise findspot, which is odd). However
Delamarre[5] does give a findspot: Montagnac and also a reference in
RIG 1[6]. Gaulish was written in several alphabets including Lepontic
(Etruscan), Iberian, Greek and Latin. Its not unusual to find Gaulish
written in Greek letters, especialy from southern central Gaul where the
influence of Massalia (modern Marseilles, then a Greek colony) was
strong. -os ending is Gaulish masculine singular. [7]

The actual inscription in full is:
αλλετ[ει]υος καρνονου αλ[ι]σο[ντ]εας

3 and 4 are from Seinsel-Rëlent in modern Luxembourg, and were published
in AE [8]. Jufer and Luginbühl say that these two, from the territoruy
of the Treveri, are inscribed on 'tabulae ansatae' (rectangular panels
with a pair of trapezoidal handles or wings, one on on each side).

AE 1987, 0772.
Deo Cerunin/co Soltrius / Pruscus / v(otum) s(olvit)
l(ibens) m(erito)

References

[1] Jufer, Nicole and Luginbühl, Thierry "Les noms des divinitées
celtiques connus par l'épigraphie, les textes antiques et la toponomie",
Editions Errance, Paris, 2001. ISBN 2-87772-200-7 p.12 and pp.33-34

[2] Busson, Didier "Carte Archéologique de la Gaule: 75, Paris" Académie
des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres, Paris, 1998. ISBN pp. 445-452,
entry on Notre-Dame, incoudes detailed photos and line drawings, plus a
reconstruction of the block ordering.

[3] Lejeune, Michel "Recueil des Inscriptions Gauloises, volume 2-1:
Textes Gallo-Étrusques. Textes Gallo-Latins sur pierre", Editions du
CNRS, Paris, 1988. p. 166-169

[4] Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, XIII Inscriptiones trium Galliarum
et Germaniarum Latinae. CIL XIII 03026

[5] Delamarre, Xavier (2001) "Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise".
Editions Errance, Paris. ISBN 2-87772-198-1 p. 91 entry on 'carnon'

[6] Lejeune, Michel "Recueil des Inscriptions Gauloises, volume 1:
Textes Gallo-Grecs", Editions du CNRS, Paris, 1985. Inscription G-224,
p. 318-325

[7] Delmarre, Chapter 1.

[8] L'Année Épigraphique, 1987, number 772
http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/~clauss/Inschriften/AE/ae1987.txt

Seren_
September 11th, 2004, 10:36 AM
Wow.

Thanks. :D

lightdragon
January 27th, 2007, 11:18 PM
normally i do this in my own forum but I feel i need to do this here. So....

....BUMP:viking:

blackroseivy
January 28th, 2007, 07:08 PM
All this is just weird on a very personal level because I had them cross-ref'd & confused - not deliberately, it just sorta turned into that on me! - previously; but I'm pretty much drawing a line now.

Louisvillian
November 26th, 2008, 07:57 AM
I've always assumed that Cernunnos and the Green Man were one and the same God, only now it seems (or at least as far as research tells me) that they are two different Gods. Can anybody help me clear this up? Is it a common misconception?
Blessings,
RubyRose
Inasmuch as I can tell, they are two different figures.
Cernunnos being a Gaulish god of animals and the wild; and the Green Man being a figure in European folklore deriving from the Gaulish god of vegetation, Viridios.

Though it seems there has been some degree of syncretism of the two figures. It is difficult to establish certainty, though.


There is no evidence for this whatsoever. It seems to be made up.
He's half-right.
There was a Welsh god named Hu Gadarn who was apparently a horned god.
But that doesn't necessarily mean he was a cultural imprint of Cernunnos.

The rest of your post is spot-on, though. While we certainly do have a Horned God as a consort to a Geat Goddess in Wicca, historical Celtic religions had no such notion of a single "Great Goddess", and his claims of such are revisionist at best.

Seren_
November 26th, 2008, 09:04 AM
He's half-right.
There was a Welsh god named Hu Gadarn who was apparently a horned god.
But that doesn't necessarily mean he was a cultural imprint of Cernunnos.

The rest of your post is spot-on, though. While we certainly do have a Horned God as a consort to a Geat Goddess in Wicca, historical Celtic religions had no such notion of a single "Great Goddess", and his claims of such are revisionist at best.

Hu Gadarn has his origins with Iolo Morganwg's forgeries. There's nothing outside of druid revivalist sources that attest to him, certainly not in medieval Welsh literature as far as I'm aware.