Traditional Astrology

[Temair]

Hi, I'm new to this forum, but I didn't notice any threads on traditional astrological techniques, i.e. pre-Alan Leo. Did I just miss them? Or am I an anomaly here? :hehehehe: I would love to trade info and techniques. I am going to be doing my first public readings this weekend in the form of horaries. I printed out everything I will need to construct the charts by hand, since I won't have access to a computer. Does anyone else here study horary? Do any of you do charts by hand? Just curious.

[Kadynas]

Hi! Merry Meet! :) I have been looking into Horary lately, but I'm just a beginner in that area. While I /can/ do charts by hand, I admit I prefer the computer nowadays for speed. As for "traditional" techniques, could you be more specific as to what you're getting at? I mean I know who Alan Leo is, but not really sure what you're referring to... :)

[Temair]

I am referring to using 7 planets, Moon's nodes, and fixed stars. No transsaturnians, asteroids, etc., to clutter up the chart. William Lilly, Ibn Ezra, John Gadbury, Dariot, Ptolemy, Abu Mashar, Al Biruni are some examples of authors of traditional astrology (not that I've been able to read them all). We use essential dignity beyond just rulership and exaltation and there is no psychology involved. The assignment of houses is also different. For example:

1st house: The native himself
2nd: Wealth and possessions
3rd: Siblings, neighbors, and kin, short journeys
4th: Father and home, estate, land
5th: Children, entertainment, ambassadors
6th: Servants (now interpreted as employees), disease, animals no larger than a dog
7th: Spouse, partners, open enemies
8th: Manner of death, inheritance, taxes
9th: Religion, long journeys, foreigners
10th: Occupation, employers, public image, mother
11th: Friends, associations, hopes and dreams
12th: Imprisonment, institutions, animals larger than a dog, secret enemies

I'm sure you will see associations here that modern astrologers don't use, such as which parent is the 4th and 10th.

I have taught a class on this subject elsewhere online, and if anyone is interested, I can do so again here. It is a very rich system. I was just wondering if anyone else practices it.

[Kadynas]

Okay I see where you're coming from now. :)

I've been fascinated by the asteroids and so I use them. As for fixed stars, I've been trying to wade my way through Bernadette Brady's book, but admit to finding it a bit confusing. :) I do use the Moon's Nodes, as well as explore the Arabic parts when they fall close to a planet in a person's chart. I do mainly natal and synastry, not so much with progressions and the like... I'm more of the school that uses astrology as a tool for self-analysis and understanding personal interactions with others.

I follow the same definitions for the houses as you do for the most part. For the 4th/10th house, parent issue, I take the view that it depends on the individual. In my chart my Moon is conjunct the IC, and my Moon is the same as my mother's... so Mom's definitely in my 4th house, especially when you take our real-life experiences/relationship into account. But I have seen others for whom the Mother in the 10th fits best.

There is a Circle of Teaching here now... Anyone can sign up to teach a class. I'm currently doing an Intro Astrology course for exploring beyond the Sun Sign stuff. :)

[punxzen]

sounds very interesting, how come no psychology? if you dont mind me asking.

you should teach a class here :) id participate

good to have another perspective on things

peace

edited to add: i thought id mention that i approach astrology in a pretty similar way as kadynas mentioned, and i use it primarily for personal growth, but ive been playing with the prospect of maybe being a kind of counselor someday and using astrology as a basis behind that practice. :smile:

[Temair]

Psychology wasn't really a subject people thought about at that time. Astrology was used for predictive work, such as when would someone get married, how many children would they have, what kind of career, will they inherit a good estate, etc. I haven't learned much of the natal technique, but am pretty well versed in horary, which can answer questions for you even if you don't know your birth time. One of William Lilly's famous horaries was "Where is my fish?" which he ran a chart for when his shipment of fish was stolen. He found the fish with the chart, as well as the thief, whom he described physically before he ever saw him. Of course, he also had political influence so he could follow up on his suspicions, but they did prove correct. Another woman asked if her husband would be released from jail, and Lilly accurately described the timing and circumstances of his release.

Back in the 17th C., people just weren't that interested in the psychology aspect. They had more practical matters to consider. I hope this answers your question. I will be gone for the weekend, but I will be back on Monday night.

[banondraig]

I am referring to using 7 planets, Moon's nodes, and fixed stars. No transsaturnians, asteroids, etc., to clutter up the chart. William Lilly, Ibn Ezra, John Gadbury, Dariot, Ptolemy, Abu Mashar, Al Biruni are some examples of authors of traditional astrology (not that I've been able to read them all). We use essential dignity beyond just rulership and exaltation and there is no psychology involved. The assignment of houses is also different. For example:

1st house: The native himself
2nd: Wealth and possessions
3rd: Siblings, neighbors, and kin, short journeys
4th: Father and home, estate, land
5th: Children, entertainment, ambassadors
6th: Servants (now interpreted as employees), disease, animals no larger than a dog
7th: Spouse, partners, open enemies
8th: Manner of death, inheritance, taxes
9th: Religion, long journeys, foreigners
10th: Occupation, employers, public image, mother
11th: Friends, associations, hopes and dreams
12th: Imprisonment, institutions, animals larger than a dog, secret enemies

I'm sure you will see associations here that modern astrologers don't use, such as which parent is the 4th and 10th.

I have taught a class on this subject elsewhere online, and if anyone is interested, I can do so again here. It is a very rich system. I was just wondering if anyone else practices it.

wow, old school! i have dabbled in the fixed stars on occasion, but i'm not nearly proficient with them. in fact i find them a bit confusing. declination is important when you use the fixed stars, but i have a hard time finding an ephemeris that actually lists declination myself.

i have cast charts by hand before, but not for a long time now. my math is rusty.

i use transsaturnians because i feel that the planet's discovery is relevant to the times, and astrology is all about time, isn't it? however, i don't think we really understand them yet. uranus is the only one that has completed more than 2 orbits since its discovery. pluto has not even finished one, there's no way we understand pluto yet!

do you use the arabian parts as well?

what is essential dignity?

[Temair]

Essential dignity is how much strength a planet has at any particular degree of the zodiac. In order of strength they are rulership, such as sun rules Leo, Exaltation, such as sun is exalted in Aries, Triplicity, such as Sun rules the fiery triplicity by day and Jupiter by night, then term (each visible nonluminary rules a few degrees of each sign, called its term), and finally face (which I believe is the same as the modern term decanate, but I could be wrong). There are various point systems used to count dignity, and there is also accidental dignity, such as what house a planet sits in, any exact aspects they make, if they are moving fast or slow, etc. I use William Lilly's system which can get ratings from -30 somthing to +30 something. It is great for determining how a planet's energies will manifest, whether it will display its more positive or more negative traits.

We do use Arabian Parts, also known as Greek Lots. Some of us are more proficient than others, naturally. I am comfortable with the Part of Fortune mostly.

As for fixed stars, there are a few that I use: Regulus, Algol, Spica, and Scheat, though I am really just starting to use the last. Some of my colleagues use far more, but I still consider myself a student and have much still to learn.

I am on a mailing list on Yahoo! called Angelicus Merlin which is dedicated to traditional and ancient astrology, which covers a large number of systems. We have some who are well versed in Hellenistic astrology which is absolutely fascinating. That list and Christian Astrology 1 and 2 are where I learned everything I know, so I have had no formal teaching, but I have learned from students of Robert Zoller and John Frawley, and Sue Ward is on our list. I don't know if these names are well-known outside the traditional school, but each has a great website to get you started. And Robert Hand has turned his hand to Hellenistic astrology from what I can tell, with Project Hindsight.

[banondraig]

wow, Temair, it sounds like you really know what you're talking about!

(note to self, join angelicus merlin)

[Kadynas]

And Robert Hand has turned his hand to Hellenistic astrology from what I can tell, with Project Hindsight.

I've been reading about that in The Mountain Astrologer... sounds fascinating! :)