When Do We Draw The Line?

[Aidron]

The "whole" Wiccan Rede that you refer to is a 26 stanza poem written and published by Gwen Thompson in 1975. How on earth can you justify the Rede as a 'test of faith' or even a rule of thumb when there are thousands of Wiccans who were around before a single word of the Rede was written?


Not as a test of faith, but as a very common guideline. While it may have not existed since the dawn of Wicca, it has been assimilated and become part of its core.

The new testament was not always part of the bible, but it has definitely been assimilated and become part of the core of many branches of Christianity.

[DebLipp]

Not as a test of faith, but as a very common guideline. While it may have not existed since the dawn of Wicca, it has been assimilated and become part of its core.


I dispute that. Your perception of Wicca, with all due respect, seems rather narrow. I don't personally know anyone who is using Thompson's poem as core other than members of her trad and some people I've spoken to here. I don't know of any major books that define it as core. I honestly don't know why you've gotten the impression that it's core. But then, I also don't know why you've gotten the impression that Wiccans uniformly use a particular color assignment for quarters.

Who are these Wiccans you know who are all the same? They are not Gardnerians or Alexandrians or members of Reclaiming, or people who based their eclecticism on Cunningham, Buckland, or Starhawk. None of the above would require Thompson's Rede, and I don't believe you'll find uniformity of symbolism even among this subset of Wiccans.


The new testament was not always part of the bible, but it has definitely been assimilated and become part of the core of many branches of Christianity.
That's the silliest analogy I've heard all day. The New Testament was not always part of the Bible and still isn't to many people. Those who use it as part of the Bible are Christians, and those who do not are Jews. Wicca, otoh, doesn't have a Bible at all and never did, and your contention that a poem published in a Pagan (NOT Wiccan) magazine 34 years after its inception is core makes no sense to me.

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm surprised you didn't know about Leland.

I'd say it's less than a third. It's just the second paragraph, "Whenever ye have need" to "feast, dance, sing, make music and love, all in My praise."

The idea of a Charge spoken by the Goddess is much older. It's in Apuleus, which Doreen lists in the bibliography of her first book, so there you go.

The first charge that Gardner put together also had a lot of Crowley in it, to which Doreen objected. So Gardner dared her to write her own, which she did.

You can read some of what was likely the inspiration for the Leland bits, and also the Charge the way Doreen produced it, in Lucius Apuleius's "Golden Ass" -- more than just the idea of a charge is there.

I did a search on the web and found an English translation of the "Golden Ass" at http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_apuleius_bookxi.htm (the link goes to the most relevant section.) On that page, if you read down a bit past where the "free newsletter" sign up part is, there is the following passage where Isis speaks to the protagonist (with the most relevant bits made bold so they stand out):


Behold Lucius I am come, thy weeping and prayers hath mooved mee to succour thee. I am she that is the naturall mother of all things, mistresse and governesse of all the Elements, the initiall progeny of worlds, chiefe of powers divine, Queene of heaven! the principall of the Gods celestiall, the light of the goddesses: at my will the planets of the ayre, the wholesome winds of the Seas, and the silences of hell be diposed; my name, my divinity is adored throughout all the world in divers manners, in variable customes and in many names, for the Phrygians call me the mother of the Gods: the Athenians, Minerva: the Cyprians, Venus: the Candians, Diana: the Sicilians Proserpina: the Eleusians, Ceres: some Juno, other Bellona, other Hecate: and principally the Aethiopians which dwell in the Orient, and the Aegyptians which are excellent in all kind of ancient doctrine, and by their proper ceremonies accustome to worship mee, doe call mee Queene Isis. Behold I am come to take pitty of thy fortune and tribulation, behold I am present to favour and ayd thee, leave off thy weeping and lamentation, put away all thy sorrow, for behold the healthfull day which is ordained by my providence, therefore be ready to attend to my commandement. This day which shall come after this night, is dedicated to my service, by an eternall religion, my Priests and Ministers doe accustome after the tempests of the Sea, be ceased, to offer in my name a new ship as a first fruit of my Navigation. I command thee not to prophane or despise the sacrifice in any wise...
The part after goes on with instructions that Isis gives the protagonist on how he can break the spell that has turned him into a donkey.

I understand that there is some question whether Leland's "Aradia" is genuine witch lore or whether it was something he or his contact Maddalena invented to satisfy a hungry public. In any case, there do seem to be at least bits that were inspired by previous works that date back quite a bit. But then educated people at Leland's time were generally quite familiar with classics of Greek and Roman literature so it's not like Leland would never have heard of Lucius Apulieus.

[Empress Stillnight]

[QUOTE=DebLipp]
"The New Testament was not always part of the Bible and still isn't to many people. "

Today, many people are taking interest in the extant books of the Bible-the ones that church fathers in the past regarded as not inspired by God (and which, coincidentally, didn't support their ideological view of Christianity). The church fathers didn't include these books in the Bible cannon. Would adding any of these to the official Bible cannon now be heresy, or an evolution of the understanding of Chrisitanity?There are supporters on both sides of this debate.

The trinity doctrine was not always part of Christianity, and still isn't to many people, although the Council of Nicea stated that it is a basic tenant of the Christian faith.

There is also the concept of salvation by grace versus salvation by works (not to mention salvation by predestination). The attempts to codify this led to schisms, also, where all factions consider themselves to be the TRUE Christians and the other side to be heretics.

Debate can be a good thing, as it can solidify for individuals what they believe for themselves. Where it gets tricky is when you start legislating for others what "true religion" is, whatever that religion is.

Quite frankly, I think Christians would have been much better off if they had a few very simple principles that all could agree on. Most Christians profess to be followers of Jesus Christ. Okay, there's a good tenant of the faith-you should follow the example of Jesus Christ. Jesus told his followers there are two simple rules to live by-to love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself.There's some more good principle everyone could follow in their own way. Funny thing is, none of this seems to have come up at the council of Nicea.

[Theres]

I don't personally know anyone who is using Thompson's poem as core other than members of her trad and some people I've spoken to here. I don't know of any major books that define it as core. I honestly don't know why you've gotten the impression that it's core.

agreed. i was Wiccan for nearly ten years and never once heard that endlessly long list of drivel.
it wasn't until i got online that i even knew it existed. and having finally read, i did my best to forget it as quickly as possible. not only is it horrid poetry, but i actually think it severely dilutes to meaning of the 'eight simple words'.

i personally subscribe to the KISS principle - Keep It Simple Stupid.

[SacredWithin]

There is a great deal of freedom within Paganism to make your path your own, but where do we draw the line? Let's say you consider yourself Wiccan. If you take out coven initiation, ritual scourging and change the elemental correspondence directions....are you really Wiccan anymore? Wicca is a tradition bound path. At what point are we changing too much? Where does Eclectic Wicca stop being Wicca?

Blessings, ~Rhiannon

I think the laws of the Rede is tha line. But for those who don't follow the Rede, I think they should follow something similar to that. It's up to them to keep themselves in control. But yes, the Pagan community has to have something to regulate the people besides the Wiccan rede.

[Empress Stillnight]

"Debate can be a good thing"
I'd like to expound on what I meant by this with a quote that I came across today that explains the point I have been trying to make.

"When we look at the history of world religions, in almost every case we see a living tradition. The fundamental insights of every tradition are ever subjected to fresh imagination in a series of "reformations," and what might otherwise be a dead tradition becomes the base of continually renewing spiritual sensibility. "
-Thomas Moore, page 212 in "Care of the Soul: A Guide for Cultivating Depth and Sacredness in Everyday Life"

[Ben Trismegistus]

I think the laws of the Rede is tha line. But for those who don't follow the Rede, I think they should follow something similar to that. It's up to them to keep themselves in control. But yes, the Pagan community has to have something to regulate the people besides the Wiccan rede.
There are no laws in the Rede. It's just advice.

Besides, all it basically says is "try to be nice to people". That's not much of a basis for a unique religion. I'm sure that Muslims and Buddhists and Zoroastrians all try to be nice to people too.

[Athena-Nadine]

Never mind that it's not the Pagan community's responsibility to "regulate its people." That is no one's responsibility but their own.

[Kaylara]

I think the laws of the Rede is tha line. But for those who don't follow the Rede, I think they should follow something similar to that. It's up to them to keep themselves in control. But yes, the Pagan community has to have something to regulate the people besides the Wiccan rede.
The Rede is nice advice, but it's not a regulation for the Pagan community, nor even the Wiccan community. Not everyone is going to follow along with that morality, not even Wiccans. I don't think the Rede is the line, as it's barely a footnote as far as I'm concerned, within my practice as a Wiccan. Yes, I try not to hurt people, but you bet your ass I'm going to defend myself to the best of my ability. Could I hurt people or things? Yes, but I chose not to. And that is a choice that is entirely independant of the "Wiccan Rede". I'm not going to turn around and try to dicatate to the entire pagan community that they should follow my morality. While I know it's the right way for me, it may or may not be right for them. And until it starts effecting me, I have no place to say anything about it.