Catholic contradictions

[Trevi]

I found myself answering a question about one thing or another and drifting off onto some problems I've had for 16 years, with contradictions in the catholic faith.

I dont understand how it is said that "god is all-knowing and all-forgiving" and yet, if you don't follow his way you will burn in "hell"?
How come, in order to get married in the catholic church, you have to take "lessons" from a man who doesn't have a wife?

When my husband and I wanted to get married, we agreed, for our mothers sakes, to get it done in a church. We had already eloped, so it didnt matter to us. We went to meet with the priest and he was appalled to see I was very pregnant. We told him we were already married and thatts when he started to judge us. I thought his god did that?

Needless to say, we never did it. The priest made fun of "those people" in our wedding party (our Jewish friends) and actually YELLED at us for each having a son from a previous relationship! And... when he found out my husbands 1st marriage was by a JP he said "we dont recognize that as a marriage, thats just living in sin." Thats when we left! We were married by a JP, in a BEAUTIFUL garden on an absolutly PERFECT day. Thats all we needed.

My mother still waits for the day when we renew in her church. Sorry, I have to much baggage to enter her church I guess.

Anyone else have this problem, or a similar one? Or am I too deep in this?

[Yvonne Belisle]

Is there any chance she would understand how you feel? I know not every Catholic Priest is as much of an @$$ but it can be hard to find one who's open minded. It isn't a faith that rewards that virtue.

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I'm a recovering Catholic. Ok I guess this isn't some sort of 12 step program.

Anyway, I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences. Most of the Priests and Nuns I knew when I was in Catholic school were very tolerant and kind. We even spent time studying other religions. Nobody ever said you were going to hell so it was real easy for me to never believe in it. not all Catholics are bad. I find they are some of the most open people as far as excepting others outside their religion. I really wish you could have had more of my kind of experiences.

How come, in order to get married in the catholic church, you have to take "lessons" from a man who doesn't have a wife?


The Catholic church as been increasing the time spent on such "lessons" for a while, probably because they need to keep a better "hold" on their people. When I was up for confirmation, I had already been out of catholic school but it didn't matter because they required them to take out of school classes along with their school ones. it took them only one year instead of two but only a few years back it only took 6 months.


As for the yelling and him judging you, that was very wrong. Even they say God will judge you and that will happen at the Gates.

I'm amazed he didn't tell you you could confess and start speculating on the lengthy penance you would have to do, the charity work, making sure your 2 previous sons were baptised and if you attended regularly and became a better part of the church community they could work something out.

The main thing is LISTEN TO YOUR HEART. Pray to your God and ask him/her whether what you did was wrong. As i knew Him the Catholic God was very forgiving and loving of his children and short of the deadly sins he could forgive almost anything.

you have been carring this around for a long time and maybe its time to pray or meditate on what you think is right for you, accepting that you can't change some things and reconciling it.

You don't have to take my advice but you do have to do what is right for you, not what people tell you. If you are not sure don't do it, don't convince yourself it is, don't put it on the back burner. stare it in the face and examine it till you can make your own decision.

[Trevi]

Michelle....

I actually cried.
I was moved by your reply so much that my eyes welled up! I guess I knew that all the time, I just have never heard anyone else say it. I think I will hit the woods; where I have always felt closest to the God and Goddess; and do some meditating. I could use some peace and quiet anyway. :)

As far as having Catholic friends? As I said, I was raised very catholic and most of my friends are so. They all know who I am and what I am, and they love me just the same. One of them has even registered here so she can learn more about my passion! Many of my catholic firends are open-minded...but those all seem to be my age. Those that are older stick to "the old ways".

Old habits die hard.

Thanks again!!

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I'm glad you found a start for what you're looking for. Heres a big hug to send you on your way with positive thoughts *HHHUUUGGG*

I think older Cathlics do have problems excepting others. We grew up in a very Catholic world, we went to Catholic school, Sunday Mass, my mother was a big volunteer at church and very social there. They probably don't know much about other people's more involved lives. Things are changing and change frightens alot of people. The world is getting to be a much smaller place and people are "waking up" and thinking for themselves. When I started public school it was so different being around so many different people. Fortunately kids adjust quickly.

[folkwitch]

I always was a renegade, even when I was into the church. Once, a pregnant unmarried (totally un-religious) friend told me of her money woes - she couldn't pay the doctor for pre-natal care. I prayed for the money for her. Here's what happened; a lady (Baptist) whom I'd only known for a little while came to me a couple of days later and said, "I don't understand this but God told me to bring you my tithe. He said it's for the Mother." I assured her that I understood perfectly. She kept doing it until the doctor was paid and then went back to giving it to the church again. Scared the HELL out of the pregnant mom, though when I told her where the money came from.

Any church would have condemned this pregnant mom (who was also 'living in sin' at the time) and demanded repentance before "their version" of GOD could help her. So think for yourself! Don't exclude something that works simply because it has a "Christian" label on it. Who's onto labels anyway?

Ps I never told anyone in my church about this. I probably would've been labeled a witch. Hahahaha

[Lilu]

It never fails to amaze me (having been raised Catholic) how LENIENT all the other Christian 'traditions' seem to be LOL

Had I ever been in your situation, the current priest in my hometown probably would have refused us entry to the church, and THAT is NO exaggeration. My aunt wanted to get remarried, he refused because she was divorced, same for all the other couples who were on their second relationships. When my grandfather committed suicide (long time ago now, my dad was just a boy) they had to have a graveside mass because they wouldn't let his "sinner" body into the church.

So I'm sure you can imagine my amusement when I learned that my sister-in-law got pregnant at age 17, and was 6 months pregnant when she got married (in church), and now of course, it's three years later and she's divorced.
I NEARLY DIED LAUGHING! Sheesh, if that had been me in my hometown (if I were still Catholic) I'd have been excommunicated probably!!! Of course, the first church, a baptist I think, refused to marry her because of her "sins", so they just changed churches where they would be allowed to get married. It never fails to amaze me. Of course, there is nothing in the bible (to my knowledge) that says you can't have sex before marriage, that's just one of the rules that have developed throughout the ages, but even still....

Just makes me laugh...... haha

But anyway, I've never felt like I have to get married in a church just because of family. My family is very cool, my mother-in-law is a strict Christian, she wanted to have us renew our vows in church, we told her no because we aren't Christian and it would be hypocritical of us to do it. She never asked again, but I'm sure it still bugs her, of course, the fact that we are witches bugs her more.... *grin*

Lilu

[folkwitch]

For what it's worth, I was raised in a non-catholic church and was taught that Catholics were Pagans because they 'worshipped idols." Just thought you guys might get a laugh out of that bit of onfo.

[samoanshark]

I was baptized a Catholic and didn't quite understand all the rituals as I was
growing up. I had to memorize prayers that didn't mean anything to me,
perhaps it was the teacher, I'm sure of that now. I dreaded going to church
because I didn't understand Latin! I was also struggling with Samoan (since
moving from L.A., Ca. at 10.) I didn't like standing, sitting, kneeling and so on.
Then when I went to college I stopped going to the Catholic Church. I felt
unfulfilled. I never stopped believing in God, I said my prayers before I went
to sleep at night, but I wasn't sure of my faith.
For some reason, when I had my first child I wanted her baptized Catholic.
I suddenly felt I wanted her and myself to be devout Catholics. I'm not sure
why at the time. I started to go to church, Latin was no longer spoken and
I was actually paying attention to the readings and the homilys. I believe that
because of the friendly parishioners and the clergy (my cousin was one of the
priests) of our Catholic Church here in Samoa, I was able to feel good about going
to Mass. Mind you, there are some rules that our faith follows which I totally
disagree with. But you have to remember that it's not Gods rules, they are the
leaders of the churches rules. I try to keep that in mind, always.
My mother went through agony trying to get an anullment after she and my
father divorced. It took years before it was granted and during that time my
mother was not allowed to receive communion. It broke her heart and that
is one rule (of many) I believe they should work on.
I believe that the Catholic church has come along way, however. They are
trying to get the laypeople to participate more and bring the clergy down to
our level. My parish is made up of very caring and understanding people. They
have seminars with other religions regarding solving community problems,
fundraisers, happenings. An ecumenical movement that is a good thing!
My ties with the church now is mostly singing and playing the guitar with
our choir and teaching 7 year olds and older about the Sacrament of Reconciliation
and the Sacrament of the Eucahrist. I teach our children that our God is
a forgiving God and I teach them about receiving and understanding Jesus Christ.
I know that this is a touchy subject with many but the way I teach the children, they
learn about love, peace, helping one another. I do try to make them keep
an open mind. For example, with confessions. I tell them that they have the
choice to either discuss with the priest their sins and ask for forgiveness (for
those that need concrete responses) or that they can speak directly to God
if they like. I never speak about hell..... why?
They learn that if they make a mistake or do something they know is wrong,
but they turn around and try to correct the mistake and say they are sorry, it is
acceptable. I try to open their eyes to know what kind of a person Jesus was.
Kind, caring, loving, a healer...someone that if he were alive today would probably
be treated the same as he was back in his time. Misunderstood. I believe that
there were probably many other martyrs like Jesus, they just didn't get the same
recognition. That is where the Catholic Church is strong. They make you
remember Jesus in their rituals and prayers.
What I'm getting at is, I believe that there is a lot of good in the Catholic
church, as well as other religions! Unfortunately you will have some good with
some bad. I dwell on the good aspects of my church. But I also believe that
a person can have other beliefs as well which is why I feel strongly about
Paganism. I probably sound a bit off because of what I've just written, but
I truly believe that your pagan community has much to offer people like myself. We
are brought up with a certain tradition that has some good and perhaps we don't
want to give it up. However, we should keep an open mind and heart. I will
continue to teach the children about goodness, love, peace and the people that
have died because of their teachings. Besides, I love working with the children
and teaching them songs with signs. I will continue to sing and play guitar for my
parish because it makes me feel good. I'm sharing a talent that was given to me.
I share these thoughts with you because I feel good about this Pagan community.
Blessed be!

[Lady Tana]

personally... i dont care if your pagan, wiccan, christian, catholic, babtist, hindu... etc whatever... its not your place to judge other people AT ALL!
that is something that is between them and their deities...

once i was 'judged' by a family friend who was a minister and my comeback to him was basically...
"when you have walked on water, come back and let me know what i did wrong!"

(hope that didnt offend anyone.. wasnt meant to be offensive :) )

[Trevi]

I really appreciate all the replies to this thread. I was looking over my original piece and thought I might have come off angry at catholics. I have a lot of catholic friends and my entire family is catholic. I have no problems with THEM, its some of the rules that seem contradictory to me. I haven't exactly had the best of experiences with anyone in authority there, either. I actually witnessed a 9 year old boy get his face bloodied on a cinder-block wall for talking back to a nun!! She made us face the wall before she did it, but I peeked. It's still embedded in my mind 22 years later!

Dont get me wrong, I have good experiences embedded in my mind too, it's just that those people who left me with GOOd memories were fired, or transferred to other parishes after a very short time. Even my mother, who tithes and is a very strict catholic, aknowledges that her parish is stuck in the old ways and needs "new blood" (as she calls it) to get more people interested. And thats where I grew up... in that parish.

I dont mean to offend anyone with my talk about catholics, specifically. In fact, I dont mean to seperate them from all others. It's just that I grew up catholic, so thats what I know best.

Thanks again, everyone.

[Niamh]

Best of luck to you, Trevi.
I, too, was born and raised Catholic. It's what I know best. At times my family drives me nuts with the Church, but they tend to be more spiritually Catholic than follow the Church's rules Catholic.
I often get defensive when other pagans are talking about the Catholic (or any other Christian) Church. Some tend to talk about "my poor mother has been brainwashed by the Church for years" and people being blind, etc. That bothers me.
I believe that they are walking the right path for them. If they are truly happy, then they are doing just fine for themselves. Just think of all of the non-pagans who say pagans are braiwashed.
Plus, I've always been a believer that "all gods are one and one god is all."
Well, that's my two cents (or four or five). Hope I didn't ramble on too long!
Bright Blessings!
-Niamh

[Trevi]

The very first person I told about me being pagan was a friend when I was in college. He was so nice about it. He didnt jump or cringe. He acted like I had said "hey, its snowing out." which is the way it should be!

When I questioned him (a devout baptist) about his nonchelance he said:

"I believe that God is up in heaven
looking down on all of us, struggling
to figure out who "he" is. He watches
the buddists, christians, jews,
mohammedan... all of us and he waits
for the day we die. then, he will
teach us the right way and we will be
allowed into heaven."

[Lilu]

I didn't mean to make my post on Catholics seem bad either, I am of the mind that if you get something out of it, then well and good. Some of my fondest memories come from doing devotional dances for God i my communion dress. That was before the particularly nasty priest showed up and declared we were worshipping God incorrectly. *sigh*

Anywho... my beef is with the "one true way" people who will hold paganism against you simple because you are living your life against the "rules". I am a thinker, I happen to think I'm an intelligent person, and so I have a lot of problems with the Bible, and so people who quote it blindly to me pee me off, quite frankly, because half the time they are quoting it out of context, or without knowledge of the rest of the stuff in there.

Moving on though...... Trevi, your story about your Baptist friend reminds me of a couple of people. My mother-in-law confronted my hubby with "going to hell" once, I believe some of the conversation went along the lines of "How are you going to explain this to Jesus when you die?" And my husband basically said "Well, IF Heaven is the only place to go after dead, then I will speak with Jesus, and if he can explain to me how following what was best path for me, and being true to myself doesn't warrant entry into Heaven, then I will repent, and if he doesn't accept that, then he can bloody well send me to Hell!" hehe

My hubby has a friend who used to be into alchemy and I think the hermetic path. He was into high magick anyway, and he met a baptist, fell madly in love with her, gave up the "evil" life and became a devout Christian, he's even studying to become a minister. Yet, he of all people is very accepting of Wicca/Paganism because he understands the principles behind it. He knows we don't worship the devil etc. He still doesn't think we are doing the right thing, and thinks we will have to face Jesus with our actions upon death, but he doesn't hassle us about it either.

Lilu

[rantnraven]

Sometimes I will go out on a rainy day. No coat, jacket - just a shirt, pants and shoes (sometimes not even shoes). I feel the rain and smell the air. I come home soaked and cold but I realize, at that moment, there is nothing to keep me from being ME.

Sure, I wake up the following morning with a pretty bad cold but, I am me and no one, nobody, can ever take that away.

Our past can only contribute to our future - no matter the pain.

The priest could be considered wrong but, he did what he believed. Not the matter that you/we could be hurt by that, but that is the lesson. We believe in what "We believe". As does he. Our parents have hurt us in the past - at least mine have - yet we forgive and, often, forget.

Be you and worry NOT about what others think or do. If you are happy, that is is all that matters.

Blessed is your Fasthanding to the one you love - irregardless of whatever people says.

By the Goddess,
-Thomas

-T

[Summer Solstice]

For a few years in my childhood I was raised in ITALY in a quaint little city with backwoods mentality .There were three catholic churches there .My uncle was the head priest at one (he was a wonderful man) always told me never judge people on what they believe or pray to just be happy that they do ,and respect their beliefs as you wish them to respect yours. There is a flip side to that cuz the next church St. Nicholas was a rotten man of a priest he told everyone not to go down the next street cuz an evil witch lived down that street and the street was evil .
I being the youngest (never listening) went down the street anyway during one open market day . I have to admit at the beginning i was scared.As I walked I smelled the lovely aroma of chamomile tea and the woman came out ,patted me on the head and invited me in . I walked in to the MOST DIVINE kitchen i have ever seen .A large hearth,herbs everywhere,and just the most warm and loving feeling as i walked in ,it felt like home.She asked me why I wasnt afraid . I told her it smelled like my nonna's (grandma) house .(everyone knows grandma's house is always safe) . We talked,she gave me chamomile tea and cookies, she explained to me her herbs . To this day, she now is 94 .She is the only one in that town i think has a soul .
I was so happy she recognized me when i went in 95'.
She told me always follow your heart,even if that means you have to stand alone. I just laugh when i hear any catholic priests start to ramble.I needed help by a priest needed him to explain to me what annulment means(my dad did it ) and i needed a shoulder to cry on.Well i go to the rectory and the secretary answers the door hands me a pamphlet on annulment and slams the door in my face...I was in tears a teenager asking for help and guidance. That summer i was in Italy well i went to the old lady (sorry her name is Federica) and i talked to her for hours,she was there for me when the catholic church wasnt .
My relatives dont push me to do anything with the church anymore they know better. It has left a sour taste in my mouth .Even though i still think St Peter's in Rome is still the most beautiful church in the world not for the pope ,for my uncle the wonderful priest who taught me early on that it wasnt the church for catholics this was the altar for every religion and belief in the world,and he hoped the world felt the same ,that is how he wanted me to remember that place .
Just live your life as it was your last and enjoy it !!!!