I need help explaining to a Christian

[Crystal_Raye]

Lately I've been talking to this person who is totally against Wicca and I wanted to enlighten them to the truth. Don't worry, I'm not trying to convert them just open their eyes to whats real and whats not. Does anyone have any good advice or some good informational websites that I can reffer them too?

[Djiril]

Well, there's The Little Witch and the Christian (http://au.geocities.com/taspagans/littlewitchandchristian.htm) which was written for this purpose.

Personally, though I would try to help this person be more informed I wouldn't expect much out of this because if they are dead set against it they will find reasons not to like it, but knowing the truth might mean that they will change their mind eventually.

Good luck! :)

[Crystal_Raye]

All we can do is tell them the truth.

[Aine of the Fae]

It depends on what type of Christian they are. If they are fundamentalist/conservative? You will probably never be able to change their minnds because they are likely convinced that you are influenced by demons and that you just don't know it. About the only thing you can do is to tell them "Ok, this is what I believe and this is why I believe it. I know you will never accept it, but I ask you to tolerate it." If they can't tolerate it, then just walk away. But make sure you know what you believe, why you believe it and can state so in a calm, logical and rational manner. And DO NOT use the Bible to back yourself up. They will most likely use the Bible to back themselves up and anytime you criticise the Bible will immediately put them on the defensive.

[Sleet]

About all you can do is say "We don't worship the devil, or anything horrible like that. We're simply a non-Christian religion, no more dangerous than any other non-Christian religion."

Don't try to argue the Bible with them. You'll lose that argument, right quick. Instead remind them that your religion isn't based on the Bible. Let them know that if they're genuinely inquisitive, you'd be happy to talk with them, but if they want to attack, you have better things to do.

At all times, try to remain friendly and respectful. Don't attack Christianity - if you find yourself about to use the phrase "unlike Christianity", consider re-considering what you're about to say.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Why do you need to do anything to them in the first place? Really is it worth the time? I know, I know that whole bit about people having to know the truth and whatnot but really? Do they have to? It’s a lot easier to just kinda say “ya know what, that’s what you believe” and just leave it at that and go about your business.
Chances are they live in an environment where this type of thinking is supported and you're probably not gonna win against that. Nothing against you, but it's hard to beat the way someone was raised.

[Romani Vixen]

It's all a metaphor anyways!!!!

[Sleet]

But if you tryng to explain WICCA to a Christian forget it, they believe that Jesus Christ is their savior and that their God is the true and all powerful God. Tryng to get them to grasp Paganism is only gonna offend him/her.

In all fairness, that depends on the Christian. Most Christians are capable of understanding non-Christian religions just fine, even if they don't agree with them. My wife, for instance, is a Wiccan-friendly (and generally pagan-friendly) Christian, who has no problem being married to a pagan.

[Erebus]

Lately I've been talking to this person who is totally against Wicca and I wanted to enlighten them to the truth.

"Enlighten them to the truth"? :eyebrow: I'm sure they'll be real receptive to that approach.

[IvyWitch]

Lately I've been talking to this person who is totally against Wicca and I wanted to enlighten them to the truth. Don't worry, I'm not trying to convert them just open their eyes to whats real and whats not. Does anyone have any good advice or some good informational websites that I can reffer them too?

Well, most likely you can't. Christians will never not believe that we are just plain wrong and trying to tell them "the truth" will probably just make it worse for you. You can'y make a Christian not be against Paganism or any other religion for that matter. Being against other faiths is a big part of thiers unfortunately, and if we can't accept that they will just never like us and always try to get them to believe that other religions are right too, then we are being just as bigoted as we see them as. Unless the personal you're talking about thinks you're a cat sacraficing baby eating weido, there's really not much you can do. And even then it's hard to convince them otherwise.

[Aine of the Fae]

Well, most likely you can't. Christians will never not believe that we are just plain wrong and trying to tell them "the truth" will probably just make it worse for you. You can'y make a Christian not be against Paganism or any other religion for that matter. Being against other faiths is a big part of thiers unfortunately, and if we can't accept that they will just never like us and always try to get them to believe that other religions are right too, then we are being just as bigoted as we see them as. Unless the personal you're talking about thinks you're a cat sacraficing baby eating weido, there's really not much you can do. And even then it's hard to convince them otherwise.

Usually if they are to the point of believing that about witches, it's their churches fault and there really isn't anything you can do, because there is a whole lot of heavy brainwashing going on.

But look at things from the point of view of a Fundamentalist Christian (many liberal Christians are more open in their thinking). The Bible is infallible, it is the complete and unmistakeable word of God. God has commanded that you worship only him (faulty theology, but that's a whole other discussion...) and that the only way to him is through Christ. If you try to get to God by any other way, you are being decieved by Satan and his demons (fallen angels) whose only purpose in life is to take as many away from God as possible (I won't even go there right now...) From this perspective ANY RELIGION OTHER THAN CHRISITIANITY IS OF SATAN. There is not getting around that from a Fundamentalist Christian perspective. If you aren't with them, you're against them. Period. End of story.

So you won't be able to 'enlighten them to the truth' and more than they could convince you of their truth. And honestly, if a group of Fundamentalist pastors got together they'd have a pretty good chance of getting to you. They're trained in Apologetics (a friend once described Apologetics as the Christian word for brainwashing...) which means they are trained to defend their faith in ways that most people who haven't read the Bible can't get around.

And the Bible is written in a way that naturally causes you to doubt yourself and your beliefs. It's the only book that people so strongly defend, or so strongly try to deny!

As for your friend or whoever, you can only tell them that they can believe what they believe, and you will continue to believe what you believe, if they don't like that, it's ok, but you would like the respect that you are giving them in allowing them to believe what they believe. If they can't handle it, don't keep trying, it's a worthless effort. Just walk away and be happy knowing that you respect their right to believe as they do.

[IvyWitch]

So you won't be able to 'enlighten them to the truth' and more than they could convince you of their truth. And honestly, if a group of Fundamentalist pastors got together they'd have a pretty good chance of getting to you. They're trained in Apologetics (a friend once described Apologetics as the Christian word for brainwashing...) which means they are trained to defend their faith in ways that most people who haven't read the Bible can't get around.

Heh, man do I know that all too well. I fell into that trap once. Luckily it only took me about six months to realize what happened and I quickly turned around.

[Crystal_Raye]

Ok, just to be clear with everyone I didn't go looking for this person. I was on a Wiccan message board talking to other Wiccans when this person burst in and tried to "save our poor misguided souls".

[Sleet]

Ok, just to be clear with everyone I didn't go looking for this person. I was on a Wiccan message board talking to other Wiccans when this person burst in and tried to "save our poor misguided souls".

In all seriousness, there's very likely little you can do. They're either trolling - intentionally trying to raise a ruckuss, with no intention of really discussing anything - or they're in full-throttle "Save Some Souls fer Jesus!" mode.

Either way, talking to them will be like trying to carry on a conversation with a box of rocks, so personally I'd just put 'em on the old Ignore List.

[Pesha]

Explaining to a xian. Gosh I stopped trying a long time ago. I just live and let live.

BB
DS.

[StephanieAine]

Eeeeeeks <grimace>

Well, here's my take on the subject: if a Christian is talking to a pagan/Wiccan/witch/etc. about religion for the purpose of "converting" the person, it's because the Christian believes that the nonbeliever will go to Hell if they don't convert, and because the Christian believes that the only means of salvation for that person is to accept Jesus Christ as their savior.

The Christian will discuss it it either rudely or nicely... and unfortunately, especially on the Internet (where people can get away with saying all kinds of rude things they'd be far too embarrassed to say face-to-face!), you're most likely going to run into the "You're-Evil-And-You-Shall-Burrrrrrn" types of Christians. Christians who are convinced that they are justified in speaking that way to a person, and treating them with scarcely any dignity.

Then, there are the polite Christians who will *describe* what Christianity is about, explain who Jesus is and why it matters, and somehow try to convey the salvation and gospel message to you.

Both types - the rude and the polite - are doing what they're doing because they believe what they're saying, and they feel it's important enough to talk to you about it. They are thinking, "This is life or death - this person needs to know this information." They're not doing it to be right, or to prove that their religion is better than your religion, or to attack your right to religious freedom. It's not about "we know the truth; you don't." It's about "we have information you don't have, so we're giving you the information so that you can then do what you will with that information." They realize you may not care; they just figure they'll tell you in case you do decide that you believe. They're trying to save a life.

I KNOW there are TRULY obnoxious people walking around, calling themselves proud Christians, who basically spew hatred all over the place while reciting Bible verses and waving flags. I know there are people who say the most vile things possible to women in front of abortion clinics, supposedly in the name of Christian love and respect for life. I know there are people who yell "death to homosexuals" at gay pride marches and seek out pagans in order to tell them they're baby-eating devil worshippers. I know that you, as pagans, are misunderstood by many - but the problem I see is that you're misunderstanding things, too.

I've heard neopagans say that Christians have misconceptions and that it's untrue that neopagans and witches worship Satan... and many are angry that such inaccurate information is still believed to be true. The problem is that while some Christians actually DO think neopagans are sneakily and cleverly worshipping Satan at midnight, plenty of other Christians realize that neopagans are basically a peaceful nature religion that doesn't believe in the Christian God. It might seem that if Christians realize 'the truth' about paganism they should logically not be concerned about the salvation status of pagans. But the problem is that, even if a Christian is given all the information about modern neopaganism and magic, and even if they read a million pagan books that deny evil practices, the reality is that in the Christian belief, Satan can masquerade as an Angel of Light (in other words, Satan is a liar, therefore he can pretend to be other beings, can generate positive feelings and so forth, while hiding his identity from a person)... so Christians will say that you're unknowingly worshipping Satan. And if you say "we don't believe in Satan at all; it's impossible for us to worship Satan if we don't believe he even exists" - well, a Christian would say it doesn't matter to Satan whether you realize you're worshipping him or not, as long as he is keeping people interested in his thing and keeping people away from God.

So all of the things that would seem to clear up all of the misunderstandings actually don't clear up *anything* because the beliefs are complex on both sides.

A big problem I see is that if pagans don't believe in salvation of any kind, then of course there is no reason to attempt to convert people to paganism, and it would probably be quite an offense to have someone try to convert you; it would be as if the other person was saying, "my way is better than your way, and I don't like what you believe." But on the Christian side, there *is* the issue of salvation, and the concern that others may not know God or understand the gospel message. So out of love and concern, as well as a responsibility to our earthly brothers and sisters, the message is deemed serious enough to discuss with people, not because it's the belief of one person against the belief of another - - but because it's the will of God vs. the will of man, and salvation vs. condemnation. It sounds very "hellfire and brimstone" because what most people fail to discuss is that the highest law of Christianity is LOVE. Yes, salvation is a serious issue, but if you don't show love, then how can any Christian expect the message to be heard and understood?

I used to read messages on a certain Christian board, and there were often talks about someone trying to explain Christianity to a pagan or Wiccan etc., and wondering why the person got angry. Yet in the same thread, they'd recount all of the things they said in the conversation - a conversation that was intended to be 'a light for God' - turned out to be frankly rather vicious, and tremendously immature. Yet they'd wonder why their message was both rejected and detested! I always wonder WHY these people bother, when they really should leave the gospel-spreading to people who have their own egos under control, and don't have trouble talking to people of differing beliefs. It seems to really do more harm than good. I think that there should be some sort of mandatory interpersonal relations course or something!

Anyway, if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't try telling the Christian "the truth" (I'm not sure what "truth" you meant, but I got the impression it wasn't going to be something good). You'll get into a battle of wills, and it will become a theological brawl that nobody will end up being inspired by. I just hope that even if the person was the most loud-mouthed, vicious person you've ever met, that you know that the problem is with the person and not with the Christian religion. The problem is in the attitudes of the people - and I pray that people realize how terrible their behavior can be. It certainly doesn't let people see how good God is or how meaningful a relationship with Him can be; it just pushes people away. It's no wonder. I'd probably head for the hills, too, if someone was nasty to me that way.

[Dave the Druid]

WOW!
That was some post! Pardon me while i catch my breath:jawdrop: (I've been dying to use that one!)
If they want to learn, they will learn. Know your subject well and avoid any biblical references.

This online environment is difficult, knowing intent behind words on a page in short format is hard. For my part, I don't expalin, I just go away. It is heroic to try to explain but alas sometimes futile. Save your key strokes for people who are safe.

[StephanieAine]

Dia duit again, Dave!

I hope you were slack jawed in a good way and not a bad way... I know, it was rather lengthy <g>!

[OriginalWacky]

Eeeeeeks <grimace>

Well, here's my take on the subject:
{Respectfully snipped}
Anyway, if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't try telling the Christian "the truth" (I'm not sure what "truth" you meant, but I got the impression it wasn't going to be something good). You'll get into a battle of wills, and it will become a theological brawl that nobody will end up being inspired by. I just hope that even if the person was the most loud-mouthed, vicious person you've ever met, that you know that the problem is with the person and not with the Christian religion. The problem is in the attitudes of the people - and I pray that people realize how terrible their behavior can be. It certainly doesn't let people see how good God is or how meaningful a relationship with Him can be; it just pushes people away. It's no wonder. I'd probably head for the hills, too, if someone was nasty to me that way.
Wowzers! You totally rock.

[oddgrace]

Just tell the person to join a christian website and not a wiccan one of they are so gosh darn bigoted. they can wicca bash together if they want and keep their opinions to their damned selves. :)

[asamananara]

It's this kind of close-minded pomposity which pushes me further
and further from the mainstream pagan movement. You'll enlighten
them to the truth? Say what?
These same words have come out of christian mouths for eons.
They've already got their truth.
Leave them to it.

[Dave the Druid]

Dia duit again, Dave!

I hope you were slack jawed in a good way and not a bad way... I know, it was rather lengthy <g>!

Yes 5tephanie,
In a good way ;)
The gulf that devides us is hard to bridge but not impossible. Open minds are favored and closed should be ignored.

[StephanieAine]

Good :-)


(pssst, thank you, Wacky!)

[Sleet]

It's this kind of close-minded pomposity which pushes me further
and further from the mainstream People movement. You'll enlighten
them to the truth? Say what?
These same words have come out of christian mouths for eons.
They've already got their truth.
Leave them to it.

I interpreted the use of the word "truth" to mean "clearing up misconceptions" rather than "convince them we have the One True Path(tm)"

[Lunacie]

I read this on another Pagan discussion board and thought it was a rather good explanation without being angry or condescending.

--- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * ---

I think here you've hit upon a big difference in world view between Christians/monotheists and Wiccans. Christians have a revealed god ie. someone told you about him and you buy into other peoples view/history of him, while the gods of a Wiccan are experienced and deeply personal.

We do not expect other people to either know or worship our individual gods since our personal gods speak directly to us. If one of my gods wanted my neighbor to know him or her, s/he would speak directly to them not send me over to do it.

Neither a person in a pulpit or words in a book tell us what to think about our gods, or whom to worship or what is true about our gods. That is something one experiences for themselves. If a person has experienced meeting their gods, no explainations are necessary. If a person has never experienced a personal relationship with a god then they just aren't going to understand.

That's why on these boards you don't get "My god Thor is just the coolest god! You need to worship him!" That's why, as well, we don't understand Christians coming over here to talk about their god. If your god wants us to listen to him then he would talk to us.

[Dave the Druid]

Fair point Lunacie,
I do have one cautionary note; we as a community not blameless. There are those among us who are just as closded minded about christians as some of them are about us.

Consider "the Other" before you speak.

[FeatherGoblinglimmer]

You know, i've just read this and most of you seem to think that explaining to a xtian is a bad thing, and that a lot of you seem to come across as saying that all xtians are ready to convert you over. I don't think thats true and i believe it's a little unfair that you think that. Talk about using a stereotype.

Underneath whatever believes you have there is a person, and i believe that if this person is a genuinly nice person then you shouldn't be worried about explaining about your beliefs to them.

[Crystal_Raye]

I interpreted the use of the word "truth" to mean "clearing up misconceptions" rather than "convince them we have the One True Path(tm)"

Yes, yes, yes. Thats what I meant. As I said before I am NOt trying to convert this person, just clear up some of the rumors and misconceptions.

[StephanieAine]

I read this on another Pagan discussion board and thought it was a rather good explanation without being angry or condescending.

--- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * ---

I think here you've hit upon a big difference in world view between Christians/monotheists and Wiccans. Christians have a revealed god ie. someone told you about him and you buy into other peoples view/history of him, while the gods of a Wiccan are experienced and deeply personal.

We do not expect other people to either know or worship our individual gods since our personal gods speak directly to us. If one of my gods wanted my neighbor to know him or her, s/he would speak directly to them not send me over to do it.

Neither a person in a pulpit or words in a book tell us what to think about our gods, or whom to worship or what is true about our gods. That is something one experiences for themselves. If a person has experienced meeting their gods, no explainations are necessary. If a person has never experienced a personal relationship with a god then they just aren't going to understand.

That's why on these boards you don't get "My god Thor is just the coolest god! You need to worship him!" That's why, as well, we don't understand Christians coming over here to talk about their god. If your god wants us to listen to him then he would talk to us.

I have to say that I disagree with this *one THOUSAND* percent. Whoever wrote the above message that you quoted *does not* have an understanding of Christianity! In fact, Christianity FORBIDS you to base your views on those of other people ("buy into" the views of others based on what other people tell you) - and also condemns you from holding "blind faith." Blind faith is not acceptable in any way whatsoever. And, to say that Christians don't have a deeply personal relationship with God is absolutely unfounded, and doesn't even fit with Biblical teaching in any way. The One Triune God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - *is* deeply personal, and the relationship between Him and the believer are tremendously strong. God is my Father, and I am His Child - and I love Him deeply and with all of who I am. It has nothing to do with what another person told me; it has to do with what *He* tells me, and what His Word, the scripture, tells me. I could care less what *people* say; my relationship with Him is with *Him.* *He* teaches me and guides me through the Holy Spirit; I do not "buy into" what I'm "told." This faith isn't about what pastors say in pulpits, or what people read on message boards, or what someone hears second-hand. It doesn't work that way.

What keeps getting missed in this discussion is this:

Christians and pagans believe different things. Pagans have no need to tell others about their beliefs for conversion purposes, because there is no salvation issue and no believe in hell or condemnation in pagan belief. HOWEVER, Christians DO believe that there is a salvation issue, and so it's important for them to "spread the word" in hopes that others will come to God.
Pagans need to understand that if a rude jerk tries to spread the gospel message to them, and does it with hate and venom, the problem IS NOT that the Christian has a lack of understanding about paganism or pagan beliefs; it's a problem with ATTITUDES.

If a pagan can understand that Christians *must* spread the gospel if they believe that the salvation of Jesus Christ is important and needs to be shared, and if a pagan can just plain FORGET AND NOT EVEN NOTICE if someone is a jerk - then perhaps a pagan can realize that they are being presented with a Christian's most deeply treasured message. Maybe then it can be understood that they can either accept it or reject it, and be on their way. But to make such comments about Christians is cruel and pointless.

You may assume that Christians are blind, follow-the-leader types who have no clue about your personal relationship and experience with your goddess, but tell me, is it important for *you* to share a message from your goddess in order to save the souls of Christians? No, because there isn't a belief about salvation or hell in paganism. So, if that's the case, then why make it an issue about "Christians don't have (whatever) but we do have (whatever)"? Can't it be recognized that perhaps there are some unfortunate people in the world who happen to be Christian, and yet have absolutely no manners at all? Maybe the problem isn't their message, it's their *mouth*! Wouldn't it be easier to say to yourself, "well, this Christian who is telling me about their beliefs is doing it because they have very serious concerns, and so I can respect that"? Maybe the Christian is giving you the very nastiest interpretation of scripture possible, and perhaps they aren't even theologically educated and they're saying things all wrong, but couldn't you just sort of say a prayer for them that they might learn a little bit of tact? Maybe just let it go, and see if you can see the deeper meanings - the more spiritual meanings - beneath all of their silly or ridiculous, nasty or uneducated babble?

I have to say that I TOTALLY understand why people are moving away from organized religion, and it reminds me a lot of what a MW member said earlier in this thread about moving away from the pagan movement for similar reasons. PEOPLE have problems, PEOPLE have attitude issues, PEOPLE are smug and self-righteous. The issue is not the *religion.* Religion was made by MAN. Yet in Christian belief, God always was and always is. The things you hate about Christians and Christianity has nothing to do with God - don't blame Him! He has nothing to do with it.

There are MANY Christians who would love to share their faith with you, and would do it in a way that would actually turn into an interesting conversation; I have no doubt that you'd walk away from the conversation feeling like you learned something and perhaps as if you've made a new friend. Unfortunately, you probably won't meet many of those people. Why? Because, sadly, many of them are either too shy to say anything, or they're afraid you're going to start blaming them for whatever you see wrong with organized religion... or maybe they think you'll reject it out of hand, and them, too. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. I pray that something changes, and that the really open-hearted and loving Christians will come out of the woodwork and start talking, because God knows they should. And the others should stick to needlepoint or watching sports on TV or something.

This is crazy.

It would be as simple as saying, "Can I tell you about my relationship with God, and what I learned through the scriptures? Can I buy you a cup of coffee?" That's really all it takes. Just a little kindness, and remembering that people are people.

[Dave the Druid]

Yes, yes, yes. Thats what I meant. As I said before I am NOt trying to convert this person, just clear up some of the rumors and misconceptions.

Then you should go and try to explain.

I wish you the best of fortune in your venture, let us know how it turns out.

[Imbrium]

My mother has this wonderful saying....

"Everybody is right in their own mind."

As I've run through different religions I've found that to be so true. Pagans who have experienced the divine in nature are as firm on their beliefs as Islamists who would give their lives up for Allah as a suicide bomber. .

...Religion is the physics of the unknown and unexpainable, and often becomes the reality for those who follow said religion. The Christian that was trying to "save" your poor misguided souls really thinks that you are in danger and that is his truth. Say a prayer for him and let him go on his own way. After all, we'll all eventually be dead, and the truth will come to us one way or another.:hahugh:

[charmedkisses1]

About all you can do is say "We don't worship the devil, or anything horrible like that. We're simply a non-Christian religion, no more dangerous than any other non-Christian religion."

Don't try to argue the Bible with them. You'll lose that argument, right quick. Instead remind them that your religion isn't based on the Bible. Let them know that if they're genuinely inquisitive, you'd be happy to talk with them, but if they want to attack, you have better things to do.

At all times, try to remain friendly and respectful. Don't attack Christianity - if you find yourself about to use the phrase "unlike Christianity", consider re-considering what you're about to say.
Exactly! I hate when wiccans like yourself end up attacking the Christian religion when we're on the defense. It doesnt make them like you! Is this person already your friend or family? Just tell them wicca is no harmful than being any other non Christian religion, and that no you don't worship Satan bc you don't believe in him, but you don't mind that they believe in him, and that to you all religions are equal (trust me this one helps) Hugs!!!!

[charmedkisses1]

It's this kind of close-minded pomposity which pushes me further
and further from the mainstream pagan movement. You'll enlighten
them to the truth? Say what?
These same words have come out of christian mouths for eons.
They've already got their truth.
Leave them to it.
Honestly! No one knows the absolute truth, let them be happy for their God's sakes!

[Crystal_Raye]

Here's a current update and review on the situation, in case anyone is interested. Saga is the Christian I'm trying to explain everything to.


ME: I just wanted to know if there are any Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Witches who would like to be my epal. I am really very friendly so email me at crystal_raye@dbzmail.com

SAGA: Forgive me if I come off in some way hard, but I think your souls are in danger. Email me and I'll tell you all about it.

ME: I take it you're a Christian, Saga? Well do all of your research before you decide if something is good or bad. I know you've probably been brainwashed just like so many other people in the world. Wicca is not a bad religion and witchcraft is not a bad thing. Believe it or not but Christianity has borrowed tons of stuff from Pagan religions.

SAGA: I beg to differ my friend. Christianity, or should I say true Christianity is centered around Jesus Christ. Not pagan worship. Now if your refering to the Vatican, then I you are right. But when it comes to being a true Christian, being as you say a pagan is against the teachings of Jesus Christ.

REJIIKU: Saga, I hope that is not how you see Christianity as! Christianity is not centered around Jesus Christ; it's about being a good person and understanding one another. If you truly understand your religion, then you will know that God gave freewill to his children and that it is their choice to make whether or not to worship him & his son.
Now, for Crstal Raye, I have been studying Wiccan and Pagan but I sstill do not know much about it. However, maybe you and some others can show me a little more about it.

ME: Then where did Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Easter lillies, Yulelogs, and Christmas Trees come from, Saga? You'll never hear anything about them in the Bible yet Christians still celebrate and decorate with them. They are all surviving traditions from Pagan religions that were absorbed and adopted into the Christian religion.

ME: And by the way, Saga, if you are a Christian then why are you in a Wiccan message board pushing your religion on others?

SAGA: You are quite right. Many Christians celebrate such events. I believe this is because their lack of knowledge of the roots of these holidays as they call them. That what my job is. Telling all who will hear the truth. Many ofcourse will not agree. And I know this. The truth is that Satan is real. He is here for only three things. To kill, steal and destroy. The way he does it is throught all forms of deceition. He as the bible say is a roaring lion seeking who he can decieve and devour. Even Christain has fallen prey to him. His goal is to keep mankind blinded from the truth. He will do that ever means possible. Weather it's through books, movies,tv shows. computers, ect. He wants souls.In the end he's going to the lake of fire and he wants to take as many as he can with him. Look at the condition of the world today. Who can be saved from him. Only them who put their faith and trust in Jesus Chirst. Satan doesn't want you to be saved. He doesn't want you to be a child of the only living God. He dosen't want you to be an heir of God and an joint heir to Jesus Chirst. No. He wants to give you a false sense of hope. He knows that the day you believe on Chirst that he will no longer have a hold of your soul. Forgive me I have no right on this board but at the same time I do. You and every one is fearful and wonderfully made. Not meant or created to be slaves to sin and death, but royal children of God. Forgive me. I will depart from this board but I will not type idlely by and watch the devil drag you to hell. Neither will God. That's why he give us a way. Jesus Christ. Good by my friends.

ME: Why don't you do some of your research on the truth about Wicca? Wiccan's don't even believe in the Devil. Thats a Christian misconception. In fact the number one rule in Wicca is "If harm none, do what you will". This means that you can do whatever you want as long as you aren't knowingly hurting anyone, including yourself. Another important rule is the Rule of Three. This states that whatever you do comes back to you times three.
Wicca is not a bad religion. It teaches love and respect of life just as Christianity does.

SAGA: One of the devils greatest tools of decietion is convining people he doesn't exist. What you don't know exist ,you want fight to resist. Satan knows that.

ME: Again, Wiccans do NOT believe in the devil. If he does exist then we would just ignore him instead of confront him. Satan would want you to face him head on. It shows that you're paying attention to him. But if you ignore him then he would relize that he cannot get you and would look elsewhere for another target.
So how do you know that Satan hasn't decieved you right at this very moment if he does exist? You're paying attention to him.

SAGA: I must bring him to attention so you will see and realize. He is everything unholy. Any actions that man is a part of that is ungodly and unholy is sin. He is the root of it. We all have sinned. Which means we all was(is) a slave to satan. If we don't come to the reality of this before it's too late then we are doomed.

ME: If you beleive in God so much then why are you using the internet? Satan tricked Adam and Eve into eating the forbidden fruit which caused them to be smarter than animals. Becuase of this intelligent thousands of years later humans created the internet. So in the big picture all technology is a tool and creation of Satan.

ME: Not that I believe in the devil.

SAGA: The internet is no doubt a creation as a result of mans intelliglect.

SAGA: Sorry that last post was unfinish. As I was saying yes the internet is a creation of man's intellglect, but refering it as a 100% tool of satan is not fully true. Although satan works through most internet domains including this one, so does God. How eles would I be able to share the good news of Chirst to you. It's impossible to have this conversation face to face, which if I had the chance I would do. Where there is good evil will always be present. Where there is evil, good is not too far away.

ME: If Satan works on this domain then why are you here using it? If it were true you'd be supporting him.
If good and evil go hand in hand then witchcraft can't be all evil as you say, now can it? Look past the evil rumors and lies to see the true good people that those lies accuse.
If "two plus two equals five" was written in the Bible would you believe it?

SAGA: You see my friend you misunderstood my post. Your first question could be answered in my previous post. The analogie of evil and good walking hand and walking is not what evil being present with good or the opposite means. I hope this is not the grounded understanding you recieved.
I wish we could all get salvation on the grounds of good works and being a good person. I have no doubt that you are a really good person. But if we could Christ would have never had to come to die for our sins.

ME: You still haven't answered my first and third questions.

[Dave the Druid]

Crystal,

Two words; walk away....

[charmedkisses1]

I read this on another Pagan discussion board and thought it was a rather good explanation without being angry or condescending.

--- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * --- * ---

I think here you've hit upon a big difference in world view between Christians/monotheists and Wiccans. Christians have a revealed god ie. someone told you about him and you buy into other peoples view/history of him, while the gods of a Wiccan are experienced and deeply personal.

We do not expect other people to either know or worship our individual gods since our personal gods speak directly to us. If one of my gods wanted my neighbor to know him or her, s/he would speak directly to them not send me over to do it.

Neither a person in a pulpit or words in a book tell us what to think about our gods, or whom to worship or what is true about our gods. That is something one experiences for themselves. If a person has experienced meeting their gods, no explainations are necessary. If a person has never experienced a personal relationship with a god then they just aren't going to understand.

That's why on these boards you don't get "My god Thor is just the coolest god! You need to worship him!" That's why, as well, we don't understand Christians coming over here to talk about their god. If your god wants us to listen to him then he would talk to us.
No offense to whoever wrote that pargaraph, but that's crap and everyone knows it. I have tons of Christian friends who I've explained what witchcraft and paganism is, and that is being rude to people like them. In the bible, their God appeared to them mostly throught visions, dreams, and Angels, etc. And many good Christians I know have visions, and dreams of Him, etc. One of them was a pagan and he told her to come to Him in a dream, she did, and now she's much happier (I'm not saying this to bring down anyone's god, I'm just saying it was right for her, and that she wasn't "converted" through people, it was her own experience)
I know alot of other non pagans like that too. Who are we to say they don't? How can you accept somone telling you Athena (for example) "came to them" in a vision , and not the same with the Christian God?
For those of you who think Xians are evil, you are mixing the religion with bad people, and if I were like you I could tell stories of bad pagans I've met, but I know the difference between a bad person and their religion, and that their are plenty of kind, loving pagans out there too. Part of my firends' defintion for christianity is a "personal relationship with God", so that post is VERY incorrect.

[Imbrium]

Crystal,

Two words; walk away....
Amen!

[Crystal_Raye]

You're all telling me to walk away from this person but I'm not going to, not just yet. Yeah I'm either really determined or really stupid but ignorant people get on my nerves and I'm gonna whoop this guys behind.

[Sleet]

*Shakes head* This SAGA feller is one seriously fringe Christian. Personally, I'd wish him well on his journey and move on to more interesting discussions.

[Sleet]

You're all telling me to walk away from this person but I'm not going to, not just yet. Yeah I'm either really determined or really stupid but discriminant people get on my nerves and I'm gonna whoop this guys behind.

Just know going in that there's no way you'll change his mind. He's pretty much saying that anything non-Christian (by his fantastically narrow definition - jumpin' jiminy Christmas, the feller doesn't celebrate holidays!) is the devil in disguise, and thus he'll reject anything you say out of hand without even considering its merits. Real discussion will be pretty impossible.

And please, nobody take this guy for a typical Christian. My wife is a Christian, and has far more in common spiritually with my pagan keester than with SAGA.

[Equinox]

StephanieAine wrote:

I have to say that I disagree with this *one THOUSAND* percent. Whoever wrote the above message that you quoted *does not* have an understanding of Christianity! In fact, Christianity ... condemns you from holding "blind faith." Blind faith is not acceptable in any way whatsoever.

Christians vary a lot. Many Christians do indeed see blind faith as a good thing. From reading the Bible, I have to agree with them that support for blind faith can be found in the Bible. For instance, chapter 11 of the book of Hebrews in the Bible says:


Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Heb 11:1

Many Christians I know do indeed see faith as “Blind Faith” – the unswerving belief in Christianity (whichever Christianity they a member of), regardless of evidence or annoying “facts”. In fact, the clinging to Christianity despite the “facts” is often their main point of pride. Here is another Bible verse, this one from 1Cor1: 25


Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

That last line is a rallying slogan – sometimes paraphrased as “Believe God’s truth not Man’s truth” – meaning that regardless of any evidence, the Bible is to be used for truth first. This is also seen in the Answers in Genesis website statement of faith (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/about/faith.asp):


6. By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record.

While I’m sure some Christians do not subscribe to “blind faith”, many explicitly do, and do so proudly. Based on statistics of how many Christians believe that the Bible is absolutely true in every detail no matter what, this is probably about 50% of Christians.

[MoonlightShadow]

... or they're in full-throttle "Save Some Souls fer Jesus!" mode.
:veryweird :falloffch :muwaha:

[Lunacie]

You know, i've just read this and most of you seem to think that explaining to a xtian is a bad thing, and that a lot of you seem to come across as saying that all xtians are ready to convert you over. I don't think thats true and i believe it's a little unfair that you think that. Talk about using a stereotype.

Underneath whatever believes you have there is a person, and i believe that if this person is a genuinly nice person then you shouldn't be worried about explaining about your beliefs to them.
We have all had our own personal experiences and I'm glad you haven't had many experiences of Christians who think that their foremost duty is to witness to you and save your soul. I do think some have had far too much of that kind of reaction to trying to discuss being Pagan with Christian friends and family.

Sadly, Pagan discussion boards are often the targets of self-appointed self-righteous save-your-soul trolls and I think the person I quoted was referring to mostly that kind of experience. I still think her message was clear and non-judgmental and I like the way she delivered it.

[Lunacie]

strong.
What keeps getting missed in this discussion is this:

Christians and pagans believe different things. Pagans have no need to tell others about their beliefs for conversion purposes, because there is no salvation issue and no believe in hell or condemnation in pagan belief. HOWEVER, Christians DO believe that there is a salvation issue, and so it's important for them to "spread the word" in hopes that others will come to God.
Pagans need to understand that if a rude jerk tries to spread the gospel message to them, and does it with hate and venom, the problem IS NOT that the Christian has a lack of understanding about paganism or pagan beliefs; it's a problem with ATTITUDES.
Yes, it's a problem with attitudes. Some (not all) Christians seem to have the attitude that if only you knew the truth about their religion then you would turn from your evil Satan-worshipping ways and worship their god instead of yours.


It would be as simple as saying, "Can I tell you about my relationship with God, and what I learned through the scriptures? Can I buy you a cup of coffee?" That's really all it takes. Just a little kindness, and remembering that people are people.
When Pagans are approached in this manner and accept respectfully the answer, "No, thank you, I've already heard that message," then there shouldn't be a problem. And to be quite blunt, there are also Christians who would recoil in horror and fear for their immortal souls if a Pagan offered to tell them about their relationship with the gods and goddesses.

[Lunacie]

No offense to whoever wrote that pargaraph, but that's crap and everyone knows it. I have tons of Christian friends who I've explained what witchcraft and paganism is, and that is being rude to people like them. In the bible, their God appeared to them mostly throught visions, dreams, and Angels, etc. And many good Christians I know have visions, and dreams of Him, etc. One of them was a pagan and he told her to come to Him in a dream, she did, and now she's much happier (I'm not saying this to bring down anyone's god, I'm just saying it was right for her, and that she wasn't "converted" through people, it was her own experience)
I know alot of other non pagans like that too. Who are we to say they don't? How can you accept somone telling you Athena (for example) "came to them" in a vision , and not the same with the Christian God?
For those of you who think Xians are evil, you are mixing the religion with bad people, and if I were like you I could tell stories of bad pagans I've met, but I know the difference between a bad person and their religion, and that their are plenty of kind, loving pagans out there too. Part of my firends' defintion for christianity is a "personal relationship with God", so that post is VERY incorrect.
I'm very happy for people who have had visions and a close personal relationship with the god of the Christians. I was a raised a Christian and was part of the church until I was 39 years old and in all that time I never ever had a vision or a conversation with God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit, and I very deeply desired that. Once I released those longings and left myself open to whatever the universe had to share with me, a goddess came to me and said "Welcome home child", and she felt like the best mother in the world. So maybe the person who wrote that message felt like me, ignored by the Christian god and welcomed by some other god or goddess.

[Crystal_Raye]

Current update for anyone who cares.


SAGA: I thought I did. Would you please say them again. Or should I say post them a again.

ME: If Satan works on this domain then why are you here using it? If it were true you'd be supporting him.
If "two plus two equals five" was written in the Bible would you believe it?

SAGA: I did answer your questions. Satan works in many forms. Just look at this forum. Witchcraft, magic, paganism. By telling you the truth of the good news of Chirst, I'm not supporting him I am trying to tear down his kingdom one lost soul soul at a time. By not telling you the truth I would be supporting his plan. As it relates to your other question yes I would believe it if God said it. But it would not be in there because it is not the truth. God said witchcraft of anyform is wrong and sinful. But who will believe it and take heed. Not many. God said that he made woman to be with man, not man with man, or woman with woman. But who will believe it. Only a few. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light....". But who will believe Him. Only a remant. Jesus knew that man's sinful desire would blind them from the truth, that's why he said "only a few shall be saved."

ME: Ok lets take a look at Jesus first. Witches were said long ago to be able to do things no mortal human could do. Now what did Jesus do? He healed the sick, blind, lame, deaf, and mute just by touching them. He walked on water. He did all of these amazing things that aren't normal. Sound kinda like a witch?
Second lets look at the Bible. The Bible was NOT written by God. It was written by mortal humans trying to shape the Christian religion to the way they wanted it. Thats why some of them are called the King James version. If God did write the Bible then why does He hate homosexuals, women, witches, and other good people. Christians are always saying how much God loves His children but yet He writes bad things in His book. God knows the truth about everything in life so he knows that Wiccans are not evil.

ME: If you really want to "save" me then do some research on Wicca. You will find out that it is a wonderful religion that encourages life and love of all people. The number one rule in Wicca is not to harm anything or anyone. We do NOT eat babies, worship the devil, or make living sacrifices of any kind. I'm not trying to convert you (as you are trying to do to me). I can't make you believe me, all I can do is show you the truth behind Wicca.

[Djiril]

It sounds like this person believe's that all non-Christians are going to hell and many Christians as well. It looks like he has similar beliefs to Jack Chick (http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp) who, as you can see if you click on the link, thinks just about everyone is going to hell no matter how good they are unless they accept Jesus. There's even a comic about a missionary couple who spend their whole lives doing humanitarian works and still go to hell.

Don't assume that I am right about this (you might want to ask him if he agrees with these tracts if you bring them up), but it is something to keep in mind.

[StephanieAine]

Here's a current update and review on the situation, in case anyone is interested. Saga is the Christian I'm trying to explain everything to.
ME: I just wanted to know if there are any Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Witches who would like to be my epal. I am really very friendly so email me at crystal_raye@dbzmail.com

SAGA: Forgive me if I come off in some way hard, but I think your souls are in danger. Email me and I'll tell you all about it.

ME: I take it you're a Christian, Saga? Well do all of your research before you decide if something is good or bad. I know you've probably been brainwashed just like so many other people in the world. Wicca is not a bad religion and witchcraft is not a bad thing. Believe it or not but Christianity has borrowed tons of stuff from Pagan religions.


You're all telling me to walk away from this person but I'm not going to, not just yet. Yeah I'm either really determined or really stupid but ignorant people get on my nerves and I'm gonna whoop this guys behind.


The person who basically offered to chat via email about his Christian faith in a polite way is the 'ignorant person' whose behind you want to 'whoop'? From everything I read, he was being completely polite in his manner and approach, and even stayed cool when you started asking him questions right in the forum (as opposed to via email as he had suggested instead).

I don't think he was looking for a fight; sounds to me like he was concerned, and he was offering to share his faith in a private fashion, one-to-one, rather than coming in with both barrels blasting and being rude to an entire thread. I don't see him looking to knock down your beliefs, insulting you, or trying to "one up" you. I don't see how you find him ignorant.

Didn't you think he was rather polite? He seemed like a gentleman to me.

I don't think he wanted to *confront* anyone; he wanted people who were curious to come to *him.*

[Djiril]

The person who basically offered to chat via email about his Christian faith in a polite way is the 'ignorant person' whose behind you want to 'whoop'? From everything I read, he was being completely polite in his manner and approach, and even stayed cool when you started asking him questions right in the forum (as opposed to via email as he had suggested instead).
I think this is a good point, though I'm not so sure about e-mailing someone like this since his beliefs may lead him to pester you when you want to be left alone.
He has been very polite, he just happens to also have very extreme beliefs about how everything works. I think the attitude of wanting to "whoop" him is not very productive and that the best attitude you can go in with is one of wanting to have a good civil debate. It's also good to assume that he knows what he is talking about and to at least pretend that he has heard all your arguements before and has answers for them and you are simply trying to find out what they are. If he doesn't have one, you've probably given him something to think about.

[IvyWitch]

I don't think he was looking for a fight; sounds to me like he was concerned, and he was offering to share his faith in a private fashion, one-to-one, rather than coming in with both barrels blasting and being rude to an entire thread. I don't see him looking to knock down your beliefs, insulting you, or trying to "one up" you. I don't see how you find him ignorant.

But didn't you know that all Christians who try to convert Pagans are aweful bigoted people and we should all work to remove that tenet of thier faith so they'll never bother us again? Even the idea that you need to "clear up misconceptions" I feel is misguided - and Crystal honestly you don't seem like you have understood some of the posts in this thread about Christians and how to deal with them. What answer are you looking for?
Yes, (fundamentalist) Christians believe we worship Satan. However most understand that *WE* don't think we are. Most of them know the basics of Pagan/Wiccan beliefs and they still believe we worship satan. There really just is no way around that.
So, some guy decided to venture onto a Wiccan forum to do what he felt was the right thing to do. You don't really see that too often. Do you have any idea how many obnoxious self-righteous Pagans and Wiccans visit the ExWitch site and leave horrible comments to and about the owners of the site? You are going to get overzealous, angry and irritating people in every religion. Trying to tell this guy he's wrong and trying to get him to even meet in the middle is only going to make the situation worse, and it makes both sides look pretty silly. I know it's not fair that Christians won't even fathom middle ground on this issue, but that's the way it is, and if us Pagans as a community can accept the fact that Christians will always believe we are wrong and not get so hostile about it, we'd be much better off.
And another thing....I offer the tried and true forum rule: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Normally people like that will just leave if ignored. By arguing with him you're setting yourself up for it on purpose, as it seems from you posts, and therefore loose your right to complain.

[IvyWitch]

It would be as simple as saying, "Can I tell you about my relationship with God, and what I learned through the scriptures? Can I buy you a cup of coffee?" That's really all it takes. Just a little kindness, and remembering that people are people.

Yep, and on the other side of the coin, Christians are people too. Just because we may not like what they have to say and sometimes even how they say it doesn't give us the right to be rude first or back. I thought Paganism had lots of stuff about respecting others. Others doesn't include people that hate our religion apparently.
Sorry done ranting now.

(edited: sorry having typo-fairy issues)

[Imbrium]

Sorry, I just couldn't put this down without adding another point.

It's obvious that this guy's a conservative fundie, much as I was at one point. So he believes that if you're not Christian, you're going to hell.

Now stop and think about that. Eternal hell. Forever, and ever, and ever....etc. Put yourself in this guy's shoes. If you had even one kind bone in your body and truly believed that anyone practicing wicca was being led by Satan, you'd be donating your time trying to save people. Even if it was pushy. Even if it meant infringing on peoples ideals and rights. Because even one saved soul would be a comfort, considering that most people are in for eternal torment.

I realise that it's annoying and obnoxious to be assailed by someone who thinks that they know better than you and have your best interest in mind, especially when his point of view is so different than yours. But try to be patient,.......he just doesn't want you to go to hell.

And really, that's not too bad.:smoke:

[StephanieAine]

I think the thing that really confuses me and is frustrating, speaking as one who *is* a Christian, is the fact that this guy *wasn't* being pushy.

He felt led to enter a forum and offer himself as a person that people can go to via email in order for them to learn about Christianity (for those who don't know the lingo, the phrase 'felt led' refers to a Christian who senses that they are being led by the Holy Spirit to perform a service for others, or help someone in need, or spend time in a certain activity that would be beneficial to others. "Being led by the Holy Spirit" is different than, for example, feeling that *you* want to do a certain thing. The underlying difference is the difference between a person doing something for their own reasons, vs. doing something because you sense that it's the will of God for you to do it, and His Holy Spirit is "nudging" you). It looks to me like he entered and made his offer, assuming that people would either contact him - or not contact him - and let the chips fall where they may; either someone would spend time learning with him or they wouldn't. Simple as that.

But then he ended up in conversation - not because he was trying to outsmart or outscripture someone, or being pushy and hostile - but because a pagan/Wiccan/witch/etc. wanted a confrontation, or was angry with Christianity, or whatever the case.

Originally, it seemed that the problem was one of an overzealous, pushy, overbearing Christian strong-arming his way into pagan territory and telling everyone how evil they are (more of a "you nonbelievers are terrible" situation than an "I'm here to show love and spread the Gospel" attitude)... with the innocent pagans standing by, being tolerant and respectful in spite of being attacked so terribly and without cause. It seemed to be a case of "zealous Christians vs. oppressed minority religion."

Instead, it looks like it was a case of a Christian being completely nice, but being considered pushy and overzealous, just because they're Christian and just because they deeply believe in God - which tends to be taken as something intolerable and arrogant these days. It seems like Christians are basically supposed to never speak their true beliefs, opinions, and feelings - and certainly never offer to teach someone about them - or else they're wackos that should be avoided or ignored.

Christians spread the Gospel because they're trying to save lives, save souls; some aren't very good at it, and they say hideous things which would turn ANYONE off and make them doubt the faith; but, the guy she talked to seems to be one of the decent ones who really wants to educate people about the subject so that people can make informed choices. I think it was a lucky break for her, because I've heard stories about very *nasty* people entering forums and saying things that should never be said to a fellow human being. I was assuming by the original post that this was a case of overbearing, cruel, hateful behavior by a Christian - and I certainly wanted to stand up and tell her that I see the wrongness of such behavior. I wanted to defend her right not to have someone shove religion down her throat. But this wasn't a case of religion being shoved down her throat; if anything, his religion was attacked, as well as his intelligence, just because he offered his time and information.

Baffling, if you ask me.

[asamananara]

Have you considered for a second that maybe SAGA is right?
Or are you so close-minded that you can't entertain the notion?
He doesn't have any doubts about the truth.
He's doing what he feels is right, and good.
He's trying to help someone he perceives as being in peril.
I can't fault him for that. At least he's aware of his conviction.
And acts on them.
Even if I'm so close-minded that I "know" he's wrong, I'd listen
to what he has to say, and seriously consider it. He believes
what he does for a reason. You should at least afford him the
honor of not disputing his faith.

[leslee]

Lately I've been talking to this person who is totally against Wicca and I wanted to enlighten them to the truth. Don't worry, I'm not trying to convert them just open their eyes to whats real and whats not. Does anyone have any good advice or some good informational websites that I can reffer them too?

[StephanieAine]

= Christians vary a lot. Many Christians do indeed see blind faith as a good thing. From reading the Bible, I have to agree with them that support for blind faith can be found in the Bible. For instance, chapter 11 of the book of Hebrews in the Bible says: (lists scripture from Heb 11:1)
Many Christians I know do indeed see faith as “Blind Faith” – the unswerving belief in Christianity (whichever Christianity they a member of), regardless of evidence or annoying “facts”. In fact, the clinging to Christianity despite the “facts” is often their main point of pride. Here is another Bible verse, this one from 1Cor1: 25
That last line is a rallying slogan – sometimes paraphrased as “Believe God’s truth not Man’s truth” – meaning that regardless of any evidence, the Bible is to be used for truth first. This is also seen in the Answers in Genesis website statement of faith (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/about/faith.asp (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/about/faith.asp)):
While I’m sure some Christians do not subscribe to “blind faith”, many explicitly do, and do so proudly. Based on statistics of how many Christians believe that the Bible is absolutely true in every detail no matter what, this is probably about 50% of Christians.


I don't want to derail the conversation, but I wanted to clear up a misunderstanding about the notion of blind faith, and the erroneous belief that Christianity somehow condones it. I'm going to give you a link here, and some snippets of information which may clarify the situation. Believing in things unseen is *not* blind faith. Things "unseen" are not things necessarily unknown; for example, I believe that murder exists although I've never seen one (thankfully!), and I believe that Russia exists although I've never been there.

Here's what one site has to say about the notion of blind faith and why it's not acceptable in Christianity:

excerpt from http://www.pursuingthetruth.org/sermons/files/practicalfaith.htm
<begin paste>
"What is practical faith? First of all let me tell you what practical faith is not. It is not merely a compromise of biblical faith to the way things appear. The way that things appear and the way that things really are (the truth) are very different. Practical faith is defined as faith that is consistent with the way things really happen and what the Bible teaches about faith. Therefore, practical faith is true faith or usable faith and is not based on magic, "blind faith," wishes, or unmerited hopes. Practical faith, as you will see, involves work in addition to dependence on God our heavenly father.
Consider the following definition of faith, which is taken from the Holman Bible Dictionary.

FAITH - Trusting commitment of one person to another, particularly of a person to God. Faith is the central concept of Christianity. One may be called a Christian only if one has faith. Our English word "faith" comes from the Latin fides, as developed through the Old French words fei and feid. In Middle English (1150-1475) "faith" replaced a word that eventually evolved into "belief." "Faith" came to mean "loyalty to a person to whom one is bound by promise or duty." Faith was fidelity. "Belief" came to be distinguished from faith as an intellectual process having to do with the acceptance of a proposition. The verb form of "faith" dropped out of English usage toward the end of the sixteenth century.
Now let’s look at the Bible’s definition of faith from the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 11:1 (NCV) Faith means being sure of the things we hope for and knowing that something is real even if we do not see it.

If you are not careful, you will perceive this verse as being a blank check from God. It is easy to interpret this scripture to mean that whatever you are sure of and hope for will come to pass. However, this verse doesn’t say that at all. It merely defines faith. Faith is not based on the seen or the tangible since it wouldn’t be faith in those instances. The key here is to identify the source of the hope. I can hope for something for the rest of my life but if it isn’t’ in God’s will then I can’t expect God to grant it to me, though I may pursue it and get it on my own accord.

My faith can rest in my own self or it can rest in God. If it rests in myself then I can have faith for anything and expect God to honor "my faith," which isn’t biblical at all. On the contrary, I can have faith in God and expect him to honor what he said that he would do. My faith is then based on the Word of God and not merely my wishful thinking or desires.

I hope to show you that practical faith is the faith that is shown in the Bible. It isn’t always something that can be explained but it is something that is not magical or a pie in the sky either. I have this saying; "God will not drop a loaf of bread out of the sky to feed you." Yes God could do that, but such would be inconsistent with the Bible’s revelation of God. God is not a genie and we therefore shouldn’t treat him as such. We can depend on God but not in terms of him being our magician, grocery store, or unconditional panacea for a lazy man. We can depend on God because he is true to HIS word, not ours."
<end paste>


Here are some Biblical passages that show the distinction between actual faith and blind faith:

<begin paste>
Matthew 24, 1-25
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_176146340_1)] ' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_176146340_2)] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time."

Luke 18
1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, 'Grant me justice against my adversary.'
4"For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, 'Even though I don't fear God or care about men, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!' "
6And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+18&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_188265317_1)] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."



18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'[2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+18&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_188265317_2)] "
21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
<end paste>

[Equinox]

Hi StephanieAine-

Understand that I’m not attacking your view of faith, only pointing out that it isn’t an “official” view of Christianity. Christians disagree on almost every point about Christianity, and blind faith is no different. Many Christians do agree with you. Many don’t.

For instance, you said:

Believing in things unseen is *not* blind faith. Things "unseen" are not things necessarily unknown; for example, I believe that murder exists although I've never seen one (thankfully!), and I believe that Russia exists although I've never been there.

I think we can both agree that Heb 11:1 (“faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.”) is implying the use of any of the 5 senses when it says “see”. In other words, Heb 11:1 means to be certain of God even if you haven’t seen or touched him. This is different from your murder/Russia example because you do have sense information about those two things (newspapers, maps, etc.). It seems to me that the main point of Heb 11:1 is to be certain of God whether you have other sense data or not, just like the doubting Thomas story, where Thomas refuses to believe until he feels & sees, & Jesus says “blessed is he who has not seen, yet still believes.”. Many Christians see this the difference between “believing based on evidence” vs. “believing based on what the Bible says”.

I read the webpage and your excerpts.


FAITH - Trusting commitment of one person to another, particularly of a person to God. Faith is the central concept of Christianity. One may be called a Christian only if one has faith.

First of all, some Christians agree, while many disagree. The majority of Chrisitians I’ve asked strongly disagree with the idea that “One may be called a Christian only if one has faith.” Instead they also require belief in the trinity, in Hell, in Jesus as God, and other points. They refuse to acknowledge groups such as the Gnostics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc, as “Christians”. This is also what the doctrine of nearly all the major denominations say.

Next, your site uses the NCV Bible. I think that’s fine (and I assume you do to), but many Christians don’t think that is fine. On gospelcom.net (a huge bible resource for Christians), the NCV isn’t included, even though they do include many bibles (the NIV, NASB, MSG, AMP, NLT, KJV, NLV, ESV, CEV, NKJV, NIV-UK , KJ2, ASV, WE, YLT, and more). In fact, many Christians consider only the KJV to be OK, and consider all the other bibles to be inspired by the devil.

Stephanieaine wrote:

I don't want to derail the conversation

I don’t either. I not arguing that your view of blind faith is “wrong”, only that different Christians have different views, and many do see blind faith as a good thing. They base this on the Bible, as you do. I understand your view, and I don’t disagree. I’m only pointing out that many Christians do disagree with you (I was a Christian for about 10 years, fully involved with Christianity). While you may see them as a “fringe”, they are probably about half of all Christians in the US. I think we’ve covered this topic well, so I’ll try to refrain from posting more on this. Thanks for your input.

Have a fun day-

[carmenmaria]

ahhh, i know how you feel! Normally, I don't think I would take THAT much time for a person like that, but in my case, the holier-than-thou christian I talk to is one of my best friends.

I tried explaining last week, not exactly about what I believe, but about how different religions are good for different people. I told him I accept Christianity, and I accept your views, but I can't accept a person who thinks down on me for only going with what's in my heart.

His reply: Well, I'm on a mission to save the world and that just happens to involve you. sorry.

But lately, i've been going to his youth group (sounds kinda crazy, but i like learning about different religions, even christianity... hell, it's not like i learned anything while i was in it :nyah: ) and last night, we went over a good point. In Romans 2, he explains that humans are always going to sin because they have the choice to. He goes further into what is sinning, etc. but, in the end god basically says ok, i'm going to send you out into this world and let you sin, and god has acceptance in the fact that not EVERY ONE of the people he sends out into the world will come back.

because god judges everyone who places judgement on others (and we're all guilty of that), we're encouraged to be less judgemental.

Now, i've been telling my friend this for years! and i take great pride in the fact that I got his pastor to agree :bouncysmi

[Djiril]

Here's what I don't get about this kind of thinking:

God: You have free will to do whatever you want, but if you don't do the right thing you are going to burn for eternity, and the only thing that will tell you what the right thing is will be an old book that is translated and interpreted in a hundred different ways, doesn't appear to have anything special to it, and is argued over and pushed by people, many of whom appear (to outsiders) to be crazy.

Now if God were both all-powerful and loving and the stakes were that dire, wouldn't God find a better and more obvious way of telling people "the truth"? :huh:

[Phoenix Blue]

The person who basically offered to chat via email about his Christian faith in a polite way is the 'ignorant person' whose behind you want to 'whoop'? From everything I read, he was being completely polite in his manner and approach, and even stayed cool when you started asking him questions right in the forum (as opposed to via email as he had suggested instead).

I don't think he was looking for a fight; sounds to me like he was concerned, and he was offering to share his faith in a private fashion, one-to-one, rather than coming in with both barrels blasting and being rude to an entire thread. I don't see him looking to knock down your beliefs, insulting you, or trying to "one up" you. I don't see how you find him ignorant.

Didn't you think he was rather polite? He seemed like a gentleman to me.

I don't think he wanted to *confront* anyone; he wanted people who were curious to come to *him.*
I'm going to repost what part of Saga's statement I would take issue with:

"Forgive me if I come off in some way hard, but I think your souls are in danger."

That is not polite; it is arrogant and presumptuous. I know that my soul is not in danger, and in any event, the welfare of my soul is none of his business. And if he posted this in a Pagan forum, he was even further out of line.

Yes, Christians have a duty to "spread the good word;" but once they have been rebuffed, they also have a duty to "brush the dust from their sandals" and leave. Further, I cannot think of a single person living in the Western Hemisphere who has not at least been introduced to Christian doctrine; therefore, is there truly any point in witnessing to people who are obviously happy with the religion they already have? I think not.

There's another pertinent saying about the destination of a road that is paved with good intentions. This man, and people of every faith in general, would be far better served keeping their religion to themselves until or unless asked.

[Equinox]

Now if God were both all-powerful and loving and the stakes were that dire, wouldn't God find a better and more obvious way of telling people "the truth"?

Hey, Djiril, you have a point.

After all, he’s supposed to be GOD, after all! Couldn’t it be written on every rock, and instantly seen in everyone’s native language when looked at? Would that be too hard for an all powerful God? What about beaming it into our dreams when we sleep, or even having it appear in everyone’s mind when they wake up? Or putting it on a post-it note on the dresser – hey, even I can do that!

It seems kinda strange that the revelation was limited to one small country, not to the entire world. I’ve written a short story where Odin is looking to hire someone to be in charge of a worldwide religious advertising campaign, and Mr. Ho L’Spere Rit is interviewed for the job– you might enjoy it. (please don’t read this if you are real sensitive, it’s irreverent)

http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJXSUM/tj5xhhorit.htm

PB wrote:

I cannot think of a single person living in the Western Hemisphere who has not at least been introduced to Christian doctrine; therefore, is there truly any point in witnessing to people who are obviously happy with the religion they already have? I think not.

That makes sense. Since the point doesn't appear to be to tell you about it (you already know), I wonder if sometimes the point is to convince you by sheer force of numbers.

Have a fun day-

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Phoenix!

Very well said.

[Sephiroth]

http://www.thecraft.com/craftchristvswicca.htm go to this link or read this.

A Christian Speaks of Wicca and Witchcraft
by James Clement Taylor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Majorly snipped by Xentor due to copyright violation.

[Pesha]

I have read the above article several times. I can only see this guy as a xian apologist. It just does not sit right with me. Sadly I have had so little good interaction with xians that I am unable to find much good in trying to get them to understand me and my faith. They always seem to want to convert me. Sighs.

BB
DS.

[IvyWitch]

That is not polite; it is arrogant and presumptuous. I know that my soul is not in danger, and in any event, the welfare of my soul is none of his business. And if he posted this in a Pagan forum, he was even further out of line.

I disagree. It's a question of perception: You know your soul is not in danger, and he knows you soul is in danger. Which one of you is right? Just because it is what you believe doesn't automatically make his belief arrogant. Heck I'm sure he probably thinks that you're arrogant for thinking that your soul isn't in danger. And, if you've been paying attention especially to what StephanieAine has said, to a Christian the welfare of everyone's soul is every Christian's business.
And as far as it being out of line going to a Pagan forum.....how many Pagans with the attutide of "Dispelling the myths" and "getting Christians to understand what we believe" venture onto Christian forums and make a nuisance of themselves? I know it's not an excuse but I want to make it perfectly clear that Christians are not the only people guilty of being annoying in that respect. Some of the hate mail that ExWitch gets from Pagans is far more volitile than a number of things I've seen from Christians.


Further, I cannot think of a single person living in the Western Hemisphere who has not at least been introduced to Christian doctrine; therefore, is there truly any point in witnessing to people who are obviously happy with the religion they already have? I think not.

But, you don't seem to understand that Christians firmly believe that no matter how happy you are in any other religion you're going to hell, and as a good person and Christian they have a duty to "plant that seed" in your mind to try and get you to turn to Jesus. As Stephanie has said many are just no good at this, but it doesn't change the fact that it's what they believe. And to repeat myself, I think the Pagan community would be much better off if we could just understand that and stop freaking out whenever someone says "Jesus".


There's another pertinent saying about the destination of a road that is paved with good intentions. This man, and people of every faith in general, would be far better served keeping their religion to themselves until or unless asked.

Yes, I agree with you. However Christians don't agree with that statement, and we do them a great disservice to basically say "Hey, Christians, you know the fact that you have to keep witnessing to me really bugs me, so you're not allowed to believe that I'm in danger." That is what we are saying here whenever we get this worked up over someone who witnesses to us. Granted they need to find better ways of doing it, but Pagans who try to "dispell the myths" and whatnot are just as bad.
This guy's done nothing wrong other than being over-zealous.

[RhiannynWildseed]

There is actually a very good book out that explains paganism. It's called Paganism: An Introduction to Earth-Centered Religions. It's good for explaining what paganism is to those who don't really know, those who are developing a growing interest in it, and those who have been long term pagans to open their eyes to some new things. Brand new it costs $14.95, but I think it runs for a lot cheaper on Amazon.com. Maybe it could prove helpful.

Rhiannyn

[Dave the Druid]

Sadly I have had so little good interaction with xians that I am unable to find much good in trying to get them to understand me and my faith. They always seem to want to convert me. Sighs.

BB
DS.
Hi Dragonsinger :bouncybob

Me too :wah:

As a Druid I see it as part of my job to promote harmony between people and I too have been the subject of so many conversion attempts that I feel like a football. One of my friends took upon himself to attempt to convert me every day of lent, no two pointers but it did start wearing thin.

Not to rub salt in an open wound but I've been dealing with this (attempted conversions) for more than 20 years. If I seem a litle gun shy there is a reason backed by long and someimes unpleasant expirence.

[Equinox]

So, it is seem clear that because Christians are only doing what their beliefs cause them to do, these two things appear true:
1. The constant attempts by Christians to convert everyone is annoying at best, and harmful at worst (such as when other paths are disrespected).
2. That the doctrine of "Hell for all non-Christians", which is affirmed repeatedly in the Bible and believed by the majority of Christians, urges Christians to try to convert everyone.

From 1 & 2, it seems to me that Christianity itself is harmful. Part of the problem is "just a few bad apples", but part of the problem seems to be this doctrine (hell) that is inherent to Christianity. We can keep shifting the blame back and forth between the individual Christian and the Christian doctrine of Hell, but it seems that some of the blame should end up in each place.

The doctrine of “Hell for all non-believers” seems to be harmful, regardless of what religion it is in. It seems to make religious tolerance impossible. Hell makes it logical to go to extreme measures because anything is better than Hell. Hell was used to justify so many things from the inquisition to the 9/11 attacks - does anyone really think it won't be used again similary in the future?

I’m sorry if this is offensive – I don’t mean it to be – I’m just thinking through the consequences of this doctrine. It seems to me that religions which don’t have Hell are able to be more accepting of other religions for the reasons that so many others have stated on this thread.

[IvyWitch]

So, it is seem clear that because Christians are only doing what their beliefs cause them to do, these two things appear true:
1. The constant attempts by Christians to convert everyone is annoying at best, and harmful at worst (such as when other paths are disrespected).
2. That the doctrine of "Hell for all non-Christians", which is affirmed repeatedly in the Bible and believed by the majority of Christians, urges Christians to try to convert everyone.

From 1 & 2, it seems to me that Christianity itself is harmful. Part of the problem is "just a few bad apples", but part of the problem seems to be this doctrine (hell) that is inherent to Christianity. We can keep shifting the blame back and forth between the individual Christian and the Christian doctrine of Hell, but it seems that some of the blame should end up in each place.

The doctrine of “Hell for all non-believers” seems to be harmful, regardless of what religion it is in. It seems to make religious tolerance impossible. Hell makes it logical to go to extreme measures because anything is better than Hell. Hell was used to justify so many things from the inquisition to the 9/11 attacks - does anyone really think it won't be used again similary in the future?

I’m sorry if this is offensive – I don’t mean it to be – I’m just thinking through the consequences of this doctrine. It seems to me that religions which don’t have Hell are able to be more accepting of other religions for the reasons that so many others have stated on this thread.

How is it harmful though? Just because it forced believers to be less humanitarian than we want them to be? I mean, unless there is a question of assault then I completely fail to see that these people are harmful. I don't get why Pagans are so concerned that everyone just accept other religions. Just because it's supposed to be something *we* do doesn't mean that every other relgion has to feel the same way. Unless you are relating the non-acceptance of other religions to terrorists or something, I'm not getting where the harmful part is.

Sure, it's not wonderful for the target of these conversion attempts mentally, but maybe if Pagans could just turn and say "No, I'm not interested, sorry" and walk away instead of making it into a debate about who's right and who's wrong, this would be less of an issue. Yes, it's annoying, but no more annoying than my little brother.

Personally, I think this facination with Christianity has gone too far. Everywhere I turn I hear Wiccans especially talking about how they are constantly persecuted and Christianty is so evil and horribe, and oo they want to convert me, they are bad. I am aware that these people are in the minority and I have the bad habit of attracting them, but I cannot fathom why we cannot adopt a "live and let live" philosophy until someone is forcing you to compromise yourself for thier beliefs. And I'm not talking about conversion attempts - I'm talking about things like mandatory prayer in school and that crap.

[Equinox]

I can understand that it might not seem harmful right away. Reflecting on it has brought a few examples to mind that might be considered harmful:

The constant barrage of conversion attempts is demeaning. This may sound like whining, but many in this forum have had to deal the feelings of exclusion and vilification that no person should be burdened with. When asked to stop, they don’t always say “oh, that’f fine, let’s play cards tonight”. Instead, it usually results in exclusion or even vilification - and it should: If they believe in Hell, they certainly don't want you near their loved ones, you may lead them to Hell too. Hell is divisive, separating the saved from the unsaved, “us” from “them”. That is a necessary step before people can be treated as something other than people.

Terrible things have happened throughout history in the name of “winning souls for Jesus”. In Geneva and other places, Sunday church used to be mandatory, or they tossed you in jail.

We’ve all heard the president say he didn’t consider witchcraft to be a religion – isn’t that harmful to servicemen & women who aren’t allowed to practice their beliefs?

This “winning souls” business often makes people ignore important medical information – such as the many Christian “ministries” that are working to convince gays to be “cured” of their evil disease.

The idea of hell also motivates all those people who have kept gays from being allowed to marry – with real harm when your partner is deported for an expired visa (if you could marry, they could be a citizen). Or when your partner is dying in the hospital and you cannot visit because you aren’t their “spouse”. These cases are happening every day.

I mentioned the Inquistion – conversion under torture is “better” for the victim under the idea of Hell, because the torturer saves the heretic from Hell.

My sister isn’t allowed to get a blood transfusion because her Christian church sees these as putting you in danger of Hell, which is certainly worse than dying because you don’t get a blood transfusion. My sister could be in a car accident any day, and would be left to die when a simple blood transfusion could save her. Cases like this happen all the time in the US.

I could mention more, but this is already too long. It’s sad that some people take the attitude “well, I won’t say anything unless I’m directly hurt.”. Isn’t that failing to help others who are hurt?
It seems too similar to

“first they came for the Jews, but I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the communists, but I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a communist…….”

This is why I feel it is important for me to not turn my head when others are harmed, whether I can comfortably turn a blind eye or not.

[Phoenix Blue]

I disagree. It's a question of perception: You know your soul is not in danger, and he knows you soul is in danger. Which one of you is right?

It's my soul. That makes me right, whether anyone else likes it or not.

[IvyWitch]

It's my soul. That makes me right, whether anyone else likes it or not.

You're completely missing the point, but fine.

[carmenmaria]

it's not what's right, but what's right for you. you should celebrate the fact that you found what makes you happy, just as others celebrate their christianity.

in other exciting news, I had a break through with my own quest-to-save friend. Today he admitted that he does have a trouble with judging people, and that he accepts me (or is working on it). Who knows how much of it he means, but I consider it a break through anyway :D I think hearing it from his pastor helped him.

[Phoenix Blue]

:eyebrow: Actually, Taiyo_no_Miko, I did get your point. Please don't insult my intelligence.

So, of course, he can believe what he wants. However, just because he believes the sky is purple doesn't mean he's right. Similarly, just because he believes my soul is in peril doesn't mean he's right.

As the poet Henley might say, "I am the master of my Fate / I am the captain of my soul."

[IvyWitch]

I can understand that it might not seem harmful right away. Reflecting on it has brought a few examples to mind that might be considered harmful:

Problem is, most of the stuff you're talking about here falls under the heading of politics. Rpublicans nowadays have the nasty habit of merging thier political views and thier religious views, but these things are not the fault of the religion itself, or any random Christian on the street who's handing out pamphlets. And, even through all of that I still don't think it's fair to be telling Christians that they're just plain not allowed to believe that all non-christians are going to hell, and/or believe they must be converted because that is on some level a danger to society. Christianity is not the problem. Christians are not the problem. Politicians who use religion as a tool for legistature is the problem. The problems would be few and far between if some of these religious righters would leave thier damn bibles at home before they go to congress.

[Lunacie]

I can understand that it might not seem harmful right away. Reflecting on it has brought a few examples to mind that might be considered harmful:

The constant barrage of conversion attempts is demeaning. This may sound like whining, but many in this forum have had to deal the feelings of exclusion and vilification that no person should be burdened with. When asked to stop, they don’t always say “oh, that’f fine, let’s play cards tonight”. Instead, it usually results in exclusion or even vilification - and it should: If they believe in Hell, they certainly don't want you near their loved ones, you may lead them to Hell too. Hell is divisive, separating the saved from the unsaved, “us” from “them”. That is a necessary step before people can be treated as something other than people.

Terrible things have happened throughout history in the name of “winning souls for Jesus”. In Geneva and other places, Sunday church used to be mandatory, or they tossed you in jail.

We’ve all heard the president say he didn’t consider witchcraft to be a religion – isn’t that harmful to servicemen & women who aren’t allowed to practice their beliefs?

This “winning souls” business often makes people ignore important medical information – such as the many Christian “ministries” that are working to convince gays to be “cured” of their evil disease.

The idea of hell also motivates all those people who have kept gays from being allowed to marry – with real harm when your partner is deported for an expired visa (if you could marry, they could be a citizen). Or when your partner is dying in the hospital and you cannot visit because you aren’t their “spouse”. These cases are happening every day.

I mentioned the Inquistion – conversion under torture is “better” for the victim under the idea of Hell, because the torturer saves the heretic from Hell.

My sister isn’t allowed to get a blood transfusion because her Christian church sees these as putting you in danger of Hell, which is certainly worse than dying because you don’t get a blood transfusion. My sister could be in a car accident any day, and would be left to die when a simple blood transfusion could save her. Cases like this happen all the time in the US.

I could mention more, but this is already too long. It’s sad that some people take the attitude “well, I won’t say anything unless I’m directly hurt.”. Isn’t that failing to help others who are hurt?
It seems too similar to

“first they came for the Jews, but I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the communists, but I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a communist…….”

This is why I feel it is important for me to not turn my head when others are harmed, whether I can comfortably turn a blind eye or not.
Sad but true. Not all religions are as extreme about this as the Amish with their "shunning" or the Catholics with their "excommunication" or the Jehovah's Witnesses who think its fine to save your soul after you're dead no matter what you believed while you were alive. But they all act like you're contaminated and contagious because you don't believe in hell. And since "they" are in the majority in the country, they are able to use politics and peer pressure to inflict their beliefs on everybody.

[IvyWitch]

:eyebrow: Actually, Taiyo_no_Miko, I did get your point. Please don't insult my intelligence.

So, of course, he can believe what he wants. However, just because he believes the sky is purple doesn't mean he's right. Similarly, just because he believes my soul is in peril doesn't mean he's right.

As the poet Henley might say, "I am the master of my Fate / I am the captain of my soul."

Yes, but it doesn't give him less of a right to tell you that he thinks you're soul is in danger. *That* is my point. Just because you think he's wrong doesn't mean that he is being rude or "out of line" by expressing his views, as you clearly stated you felt.

[Lunacie]

And, even through all of that I still don't think it's fair to be telling Christians that they're just plain not allowed to believe that all non-christians are going to hell, and/or believe they must be converted because that is on some level a danger to society. Christianity is not the problem. Christians are not the problem. Politicians who use religion as a tool for legistature is the problem. The problems would be few and far between if some of these religious righters would leave thier damn bibles at home before they go to congress.
I don't think any of us have said we should be able to tell Christians that cannot believe we are going to hell. They can believe whatever they choose to believe. But they must respect our right to disagree, to believe something different. That has nothing to do with religious tolerance, it's in the constitution.

[Phoenix Blue]

Then your point is based on a straw man. I never accused him of being rude with the "Your soul is in peril" statement. I said the statement was arrogant and presumptuous. . . which it is. Although rude does work here as well, since again, my soul is none of his business.

Furthermore, making a statement such as that on a Pagan forum is out-of-line. I know very few forums where Pagans convene to be proselytized to. Actually, strike that--I don't know any. People go to Pagan forums (presumably) to talk about things related to Paganism. If they choose to bash Christianity, that's a poor choice on their part; but given the spiritual abuse to which people who are not Christian are put through even today, I can empathize with those who make that choice.

But again, you're right--to an extent. He has a right to tell me my soul is in danger as long as the rules of the forum in question allow it. He certainly wouldn't be allowed to say that here, for example. And anywhere that he would be allowed to say it, I would be just as allowed to tell him that both his reasoning and his doctrine are flawed.

[Phoenix Blue]

I don't think any of us have said we should be able to tell Christians that cannot believe we are going to hell. They can believe whatever they choose to believe. But they must respect our right to disagree, to believe something different. That has nothing to do with religious tolerance, it's in the constitution.
;) Not quite, since the Constitution only limits government, not the people. That's why people do have the right not to respect my faith. And on that point, I agree with Taiyo_no_Miko.

[Lunacie]

Yes, but it doesn't give him less of a right to tell you that he thinks you're soul is in danger. *That* is my point. Just because you think he's wrong doesn't mean that he is being rude or "out of line" by expressing his views, as you clearly stated you felt.
Yes, but his views don't allow me the right to believe something different. How is that not disrespectful and rude?

[Lunacie]

;) Not quite, since the Constitution only limits government, not the people. That's why people do have the right not to respect my faith. And on that point, I agree with Taiyo_no_Miko.
And that's where it should cut both ways. If they don't respect all faiths they can't complain when others don't respect their right to "witness" about theirs.

[Phoenix Blue]

And that's where it should cut both ways. If they don't respect all faiths they can't complain when others don't respect their right to "witness" about theirs.
Well-said. **Smiles**

[IvyWitch]

Yes, but his views don't allow me the right to believe something different. How is that not disrespectful and rude?

No one is preventing you from believing what you believe, are they? However many Pagans want to stop Christians from believing the whole saving deal. Is that somehow not disrespectful and rude?

[IvyWitch]

And that's where it should cut both ways. If they don't respect all faiths they can't complain when others don't respect their right to "witness" about theirs.

See, the thing is I'm not sure that anyone is contesting that. I agree with you completely, but in this case the person who is complaining is a Pagan who is being witnessed too.

Then again I may be misinterpreting what you're saying..

[IvyWitch]

I don't think any of us have said we should be able to tell Christians that cannot believe we are going to hell. They can believe whatever they choose to believe. But they must respect our right to disagree, to believe something different. That has nothing to do with religious tolerance, it's in the constitution.

I wasn't talking about anyone here specifically, it's just my impression of the general attitude towards Christianity even outside of Paganism.

[Lunacie]

No one is preventing you from believing what you believe, are they? However many Pagans want to stop Christians from believing the whole saving deal. Is that somehow not disrespectful and rude?
Most Pagans don't care what Christians believe or don't believe, as long as they aren't in our faces saying that their beliefs are the only way to the Truth. How is it rude and disrespectful to ask that they stop trying to make us look immoral for believing something different?

[Lunacie]

See, the thing is I'm not sure that anyone is contesting that. I agree with you completely, but in this case the person who is complaining is a Pagan who is being witnessed too.

Then again I may be misinterpreting what you're saying..
I guess I should have been forwarding you all those emails I got where Christians were complaining about not being allowed to pray in school. If they had respected the right of those who follow other religions to pray in their own way to their own gods no one would have challenged their right to do the same. In fact they have every right to do it the way Jesus recommended, in private, in their own homes, in their own churches, not in public.

We are just tired of being told to go along with the majority who believe "one god, one way, one truth". All those emails closed with this, "If you don't agree with the majority in this country then sit down and shut up." Not very respectful, eh?

[Sephiroth]

Ok guys we all have straid of topic. i gave her my last post for a reading material so she could get some ideas and the link to make it easier. not for all of you all to start going off on each other. :bangyourh :shaker:

[Athena-Nadine]

I guess I should have been forwarding you all those emails I got where Christians were complaining about not being allowed to pray in school. If they had respected the right of those who follow other religions to pray in their own way to their own gods no one would have challenged their right to do the same. In fact they have every right to do it the way Jesus recommended, in private, in their own homes, in their own churches, not in public.

We are just tired of being told to go along with the majority who believe "one god, one way, one truth". All those emails closed with this, "If you don't agree with the majority in this country then sit down and shut up." Not very respectful, eh?
*...shrugs...* I get those emails too. And I get them from some of my friends. I don't like them any more than you do, but so what? No one is required to respect anyone else's opinions. No particular person is required to respect anyone else's right to them. Only the government is required to do that. You have just as much right to tell them that they are off base as they have to tell you and vice versa.

Yes, it would be really nice if everyone respected everyone else's right to believe as they do. The world doesn't work like that, however, nor is it required to. Being someone who accepts another's right to believe and feel as they see fit includes respecting that person's right to not respect yours.

Honor that attempts to force others to live by the same code is no honor at all. It doesn't matter the direction. Whether we like it or not, whether we see them as rude and arrogant or not, proselytizing and witnessing is an integral part of many Christian denominations. It is a part of their beliefs. Believing that everyone else is wrong is a part of their beliefs. Every single Pagan who attempts to force a Christian to stop living their religion the only way they know how is gulity of doing exactly what they are accusing those Christians of doing. Religious tolerance is not selective.

None of us have the right to not be offended, no matter who is doing the offending.

[IvyWitch]

I guess I should have been forwarding you all those emails I got where Christians were complaining about not being allowed to pray in school. If they had respected the right of those who follow other religions to pray in their own way to their own gods no one would have challenged their right to do the same. In fact they have every right to do it the way Jesus recommended, in private, in their own homes, in their own churches, not in public.

We are just tired of being told to go along with the majority who believe "one god, one way, one truth". All those emails closed with this, "If you don't agree with the majority in this country then sit down and shut up." Not very respectful, eh?

Problem is we are talking about two completely different issues. I am trying to argue (and yes I have strayed somewhat off this topic but my point remains) that Crystal is wrong in trying to debate with this guy or trying to get him to see her point of view. To me the fact that he walked into the lions den doesn't much matter if her goal is to "dispell myths" about Paganism to this guy. She may not be trying to convert him but when you compare his conversion attempts with the attempt to make a Christian understand our faith it really is closer than most people think. This has nothing to do with Christians complaining about not being able to witness. Clearly the person in question is quite capable of doing so.

[IvyWitch]

Ok guys we all have straid of topic. i gave her my last post for a reading material so she could get some ideas and the link to make it easier. not for all of you all to start going off on each other. :bangyourh :shaker:

Topics tend to stray quite often around here, and to be brutally honest the discussion going on between the three of us had little if anything to do with your suggestion. Your post just happened to pop up in the middle of it.

[StephanieAine]

Wow! A lot has happened since yesterday! I'm still trying to catch up with things, so forgive me if it seems that I'm missing something. After I post this message, I'll go back and review the messages again in case I need to respond to something that I've missed. But for the moment, I wanted to respond to your message, Equinox. Part of your message said,


First of all, some Christians agree, while many disagree. The majority of Chrisitians I’ve asked strongly disagree with the idea that “One may be called a Christian only if one has faith.” Instead they also require belief in the trinity, in Hell, in Jesus as God, and other points. They refuse to acknowledge groups such as the Gnostics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc, as “Christians”. This is also what the doctrine of nearly all the major denominations say.

Next, your site uses the NCV Bible. I think that’s fine (and I assume you do to), but many Christians don’t think that is fine. On gospelcom.net (a huge bible resource for Christians), the NCV isn’t included, even though they do include many bibles (the NIV, NASB, MSG, AMP, NLT, KJV, NLV, ESV, CEV, NKJV, NIV-UK , KJ2, ASV, WE, YLT, and more). In fact, many Christians consider only the KJV to be OK, and consider all the other bibles to be inspired by the devil.


The page I quoted from apparently used that version, but the scripture verses that *I* quoted were from the NIV, btw, which is very popular and used by many denominations.

But I think what's important here is that it seems like there's confusion between Christianity-the-faith and Christianity-the-organization-of-denominations. A lot of people detest Christianity because they detest the *organization* - and may not really even know very much about the actual faith or what the Bible teaches. In fact, with the fact that there are SO many denominations, things can get extremely muddled because some denominations rely heavily on the opinions of their church governments and "people in power" while others pay very little attention to church politics.

For the purposes of this discussion, I think it's important to make the distinction because people are discussing "what Christians believe" and I'm hearing *what denominations believe* - which can even mean an extremely tiny denomination with few members whose beliefs may conflict drastically with those of the majority of the population. ****I'm talking here about *general* Christianity*** - with my focus being that of Protestantism (a *huge* chunk of denominations are classified as Protestant, so nothing I say here is unusual; it's a "majority" thing).

When you say something like what was said in the quote above (about "many Christians" believing that certain Bibles are inspired by Satan etc.), that's a very good example of what I'm talking about. That's POLITICS, the politics of an *extremely tiny* number of Christians who have decided such a thing by themselves, not from something in the Bible's teachings.

I want to kind of get past the politics here because it's keeping us wrapped up in a lot of things that have nothing to do with the actual *beliefs* and the notion of faith, and why the original poster was dealing with a man entering the forum, and the entire issue under discussion.

*About the blind faith issue* - this applies to numerous denominations (if denomination makes a difference):

The Protestant doctrine is,-- (1.) That the Scriptures are the only rule of faith and practice; (2.) (a) Negatively, that there is no body of men qualified or authorized to interpret the Scriptures or to apply their teachings to the decision of particular questions in a sense binding upon their fellow - Christians; (3) Positively, that the Scriptures are the only authoritative voice in the Church (read: Church meaning "believers everywhere" not a church organization) ; which is to be interpreted and applied by every individual for himself, with the assistance, though not by the authority, of his fellow-Christians. Creeds and confessions, as to form, bind those only who voluntarily profess them; and as to matter, they bind only so far as they affirm truly what the Bible teaches, and because the Bible does so teach.
This must be true -- (1.) Because the Scriptures, which profess to teach us the way of salvation, refer us to no standard or judge in matters of religion beyond or above themselves; and because no body of men since the apostles has ever existed, with the qualifications or with the authority to act in the office of judge for their fellows. (2.) Because, as we have seen, the Scriptures are themselves complete and perspicuous. (3.) Because all Christians are commanded to search the Scriptures, and to judge both doctrines and professed teachers themselves. John v. 39; 1 John ii. 20, 27; iv. 1, 2; Acts xvii. 11; Gal. i. 8; 1 These. v. 21. (4.) Because all Christians are promised the Holy Spirit to guide them in the understanding and practical use of the truth. Rom. viii. 9; 1 John ii. 20, 27

So basically, *regardless* of what an organization says, Christians are to *judge for themselves* and study scripture *for themselves* and use their own mind to understand, based upon what God teaches them through practical experience in study. This goes along with the teaching of scripture about "renewing the mind." This is the intellectual component of Christian faith.

To understand a bit about why this is not about blind faith, here are a couple of links that are very interesting:

IS ALL FAITH BLIND? Part One
http://www.boundless.org/1999/regulars/office_hours/a0000085.html

HOW DO CHRISTIANS REASON? Part Two
http://www.boundless.org/2001/regulars/office_hours/a0000611.html

A SKEPTICAL VIEW OF CHRISTIANITY
http://www.boundless.org/1999/regulars/office_hours/a0000011.html

Now, back to the thread for me! Got to catch myself up <g>

[IvyWitch]

For the purposes of this discussion, I think it's important to make the distinction because people are discussing "what Christians believe" and I'm hearing *what denominations believe* - which can even mean an extremely tiny denomination with few members whose beliefs may conflict drastically with those of the majority of the population. ****I'm talking here about *general* Christianity*** - with my focus being that of Protestantism (a *huge* chunk of denominations are classified as Protestant, so nothing I say here is unusual; it's a "majority" thing).

Oh, yes I'm sorry, partly my fault. Since at the beginning of the discussion we were talking about an evangellical Christian I've been sticking to that particular denomination.
^^;;;

[Lunacie]

Problem is we are talking about two completely different issues. I am trying to argue (and yes I have strayed somewhat off this topic but my point remains) that Crystal is wrong in trying to debate with this guy or trying to get him to see her point of view. To me the fact that he walked into the lions den doesn't much matter if her goal is to "dispell myths" about Paganism to this guy. She may not be trying to convert him but when you compare his conversion attempts with the attempt to make a Christian understand our faith it really is closer than most people think. This has nothing to do with Christians complaining about not being able to witness. Clearly the person in question is quite capable of doing so.
Well, I'd say the guy opened himself up to debate by posting on a Pagan board, surely he knew he was walking into the lion's den. He opened the discussion by offering to share his beliefs. Turn about is certainly fair and he should also be willing to hear what the beliefs he condemns are actually all about. If he wasn't willing to "hear" what Crystal had to say, all he had to do was walk out of the lion's den, eh? If Pagans aren't allowed to discuss their beliefs on a Pagan discussion board, no matter who wanders in, then free speech doesn't mean what I thought it meant.

[Pesha]

Well said Lunacie. If a xian comes in to our board and wishs to discuss his/her path, then they have to allow for what ever conversation and dialogue comes about. It is a fair is fair deal. As long as they do not come and bash us, we will not argue with them.

BB
DS.

[Lunacie]

Well said Lunacie. If a xian comes in to our board and wishs to discuss his/her path, then they have to allow for what ever conversation and dialogue comes about. It is a fair is fair deal. As long as they do not come and bash us, we will not argue with them.

BB
DS.
Argue, hopefully not. Debate with respect would be okay.

[StephanieAine]

I've been reading the last few pages of posts in an attempt to catch up, and I think I'm confusing myself, LOL. I'm going to attempt to reply to these in one post (this is a bit like juggling, except without balls. Hmmm, that didn't sound right somehow.... )

Anyway! Back to the discussion:



After all, he’s supposed to be GOD, after all! Couldn’t it be written on every rock, and instantly seen in everyone’s native language when looked at? Would that be too hard for an all powerful God? What about beaming it into our dreams when we sleep, or even having it appear in everyone’s mind when they wake up? Or putting it on a post-it note on the dresser – hey, even I can do that!
It seems kinda strange that the revelation was limited to one small country, not to the entire world. I’ve written a short story where Odin is looking to hire someone to be in charge of a worldwide religious advertising campaign, and Mr. Ho L’Spere Rit is interviewed for the job– you might enjoy it. (please don’t read this if you are real sensitive, it’s irreverent)

And in a related post:

So, it is seem clear that because Christians are only doing what their beliefs cause them to do, these two things appear true:
1. The constant attempts by Christians to convert everyone is annoying at best, and harmful at worst (such as when other paths are disrespected).
2. That the doctrine of "Hell for all non-Christians", which is affirmed repeatedly in the Bible and believed by the majority of Christians, urges Christians to try to convert everyone.
From 1 & 2, it seems to me that Christianity itself is harmful. Part of the problem is "just a few bad apples", but part of the problem seems to be this doctrine (hell) that is inherent to Christianity. We can keep shifting the blame back and forth between the individual Christian and the Christian doctrine of Hell, but it seems that some of the blame should end up in each place.
The doctrine of “Hell for all non-believers” seems to be harmful, regardless of what religion it is in. It seems to make religious tolerance impossible. Hell makes it logical to go to extreme measures because anything is better than Hell. Hell was used to justify so many things from the inquisition to the 9/11 attacks - does anyone really think it won't be used again similary in the future?
I’m sorry if this is offensive – I don’t mean it to be – I’m just thinking through the consequences of this doctrine. It seems to me that religions which don’t have Hell are able to be more accepting of other religions for the reasons that so many others have stated on this thread.




God doesn't carve an obvious message somewhere because faith matters. It's too complex to describe in a message board posting, but the very issues you raise in your first post are issues that are discussed by many Christians. And, in the Bible, the issue is discussed quite frequently. But God did come to be God of all nations according to scripture; not just Israel, and not just to be God of the Jews and/or the Christians. And yes, He does speak to people in their dreams, and He does converse with people all the time - but people don't always pay attention. (I do my very best to notice, but I'm sure I slip up frequently!)

The doctrines you call dangerous aren't things that organized churches came up with; the issues of free will and salvation etc. are from scripture. The things that you see as dangerous are **what people do with those beliefs** and their **reactions** to those teachings. But the problem, as I see it, is when people forget the basic idea of free will. It's CHOICE. So it's silly to get bent out of shape about it; all a Christian can do is teach what they know, and pray that the message is understood in all of its complexity so that the person they're talking to will "get it." That way, they'll be making a choice based upon educated understanding, and will really be able to decide. I've known people who were given bogus information and chose to become Christian, then later left the church because of (insert whatever ridiculous situation) and then years later studied something that gave them an "ah HA!" moment, and they wondered why nobody ever told them (insert whatever). My comment is usually that it might be because they weren't told where to study the teaching for themselves so they can get a grasp of it. People shouldn't decide to be Christian in a "turn or burn" fashion - that's ridiculous, and has nothing to do with truly loving God. If you don't love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, then you're wasting your time and God's time (based upon the teaching that God sees what's in a person's heart).






It's my soul. That makes me right, whether anyone else likes it or not.


And in a related post:

So, of course, he can believe what he wants. However, just because he believes the sky is purple doesn't mean he's right. Similarly, just because he believes my soul is in peril doesn't mean he's right.
As the poet Henley might say, "I am the master of my Fate / I am the captain of my soul."



I understand what you're saying; I've been told that before by people outside of the Christian faith, and I can see where that seems to make sense - sort of along the lines of "I know who I am better than you know who I am" etc...
but in Christian teaching (meaning in scripture, not just some organized religio-political idea) *nobody* can really know their own soul in the way that God can, because He created the soul... and He is God, not us. For this very reason, nobody can judge a person's soul or their salvation, because that's in God's hands. On the other hand, based upon faith (the trust in the knowledge we have, even of things unseen or unprovable by earthly methods), a Christian might say that they know their soul is safe based upon trust in God's Word (which teaches that once you're in the palm of His hand, He won't let you go or forsake you, therefore you can be confident that He has taken you in as His child).

So, when a Christian hears a pagan say "I know my soul, you don't" - the Christian is thinking, this person knows how they feel, but feelings aren't necessarily true... and what about what God thinks? It sort of gets into other concepts having to do with sin, which a Christian sees as being a *tendency* that human beings have toward being self-focused and likely to do things that are wrong/sinful/unholy/thoughtless/whatever. "Error" in other words, I suppose is a better way to explain it, because people often think of sin in terms of "you are BAAAAAD." In fact, the scripture teaches that we were created good, and then entered a 'fallen' condition, so Christianity is a means to "re-cleanse" and get back to that "good with God" state (scripture teaches that people are seen 'good' by God upon salvation, and that he doesn't even look at our sinful tendency anymore, loving us through His grace, not even because of anything we've done. Just love on its own.)

Christians like "SAGA" are attempting to present these ideas to people, knowing that they'll accept it or not, and knowing that the person has a complete choice; there is no blackmail or coercing, no threats of hell (in the proper attitude of evangelisation, that is; rude jerks will DEFINITELY threaten). Hell may be discussed, but it won't be in a blaming fashion, it'll be in a way of explaining and comparing to give an overall idea of things.







in other exciting news, I had a break through with my own quest-to-save friend. Today he admitted that he does have a trouble with judging people, and that he accepts me (or is working on it). Who knows how much of it he means, but I consider it a break through anyway I think hearing it from his pastor helped him.




Judgmental attitudes are a huge problem in the Christian community; a lot of people have trouble with it because they assume that if they're instructed to judge rightly, that means judge PEOPLE, rather than what the scriptures actually teach (which is that we aren't to judge others, because only God can judge, not people). Sometimes they also use the "discernment" scriptures to explain why they have judgmental attitudes, but discernment has absolutely nothing to do with it; discernment is applied to scriptural learning and things having to do with *yourself* not others, and other things which don't apply to the conversation at hand - but certainly not to judging people and telling them they're hellbound.

I do want to point one thing out, though: there are some Christians (notably the very forceful variety) who throw the word "sin" around a lot. They'll say, "You're sinning! You're sinful! You'll burn" and so forth, and sometimes even *laugh* smugly (I have trouble stomaching those attitudes, and I always say "this is why people leave Christianity" - but inevitably, I'm told that it's not their fault, they're just being Biblical. But in fact, they're going against it in more ways than one.)

On one hand, it's completely improper, because Christians are taught in the Bible that they are only to point out sin they notice *in their brother* (fellow believer) - not nonbelievers. On the other hand, it's important for a Christian to explain what sin is to a nonbeliever in order to explain who Jesus is and what he did, why it matters, etcetera.

So in the future, if a Christian starts mentioning sin to you... please, if you can, try to notice whether he/she is just *talking* about the concept and explaining how it applies, what it is in a person's life, giving examples etc... as opposed to telling you that you're terrible and they're a perfect angel. Please don't get angry right away; you may just be hearing *theology* and not having something directed AT you. (Just wanted to bring that up, since it's a common problem!)






Not all religions are as extreme about this as the Amish with their "shunning" or the Catholics with their "excommunication" or the Jehovah's Witnesses who think its fine to save your soul after you're dead no matter what you believed while you were alive. But they all act like you're contaminated and contagious because you don't believe in hell. And since "they" are in the majority in the country, they are able to use politics and peer pressure to inflict their beliefs on everybody.





That's what I was meaning when I mentioned politics in the earlier post that I wrote today. It's really important to notice the difference between the beliefs a Christian has that come from denominational decisions and politics, vs. beliefs that come from the scriptures, which are *core* beliefs. My personal viewpoint is that one can't properly determine whether they agree/disagree with Christianity unless they really understand the *core* - and can separate the core beliefs from all of the gobbledygook that *people* have attached to "Christianity." Then, if a person ends up deciding they do believe in the Bible etc, there's *plenty* of time to decide whether they agree with one certain denomination or not, and that kind of thing. All of the organizational "stuff" is just *stuff.*

And that bit about "the majority" - hate to tell ya, but they aren't the majority. The majority absolutely don't feel that way, even the most scripture-centered, devout believers. The people you're talking about are very involved in *a certain church group's* or a *certain Christian speaker's/writer's/pastor's* ideas and teachings, so if that group/person teaches that someone/something is contaminated, as you put it, then everyone's going to start screaming "it's contaminated!" and then proceed to act upon that, and maybe even hunt around for scripture verses (which they then will pull completely out of context) in order to "prove" their beliefs. Not too cool, but it's done all the time. Again, politics and human-made gobbledygook, NOT core Christian teachings of scripture.






I don't think any of us have said we should be able to tell Christians that cannot believe we are going to hell. They can believe whatever they choose to believe. But they must respect our right to disagree, to believe something different. That has nothing to do with religious tolerance, it's in the constitution.


And in related posts here:

Yes, but his views don't allow me the right to believe something different. How is that not disrespectful and rude?

... and here:

Most Pagans don't care what Christians believe or don't believe, as long as they aren't in our faces saying that their beliefs are the only way to the Truth. How is it rude and disrespectful to ask that they stop trying to make us look immoral for believing something different?





I don't think he was trying to make her look immoral when he offered to chat via email - and I seldom see people trying to "make" pagans "look" immoral. I see that there are people who see paganism itself as incorrect, but "immoral" seems to be an inaccurate word.... I do get what you're trying to say, though.

What is important to understand is that if a Christian is saying, "Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life - and He is the only way to God" - he isn't saying it to be disrespectful; in fact, the Christian may deeply wish that it was a little bit *easier* than that, because the Christian may have many friends who are nonbelievers.

The thing is, if a Christian understands that God makes the decisions, and He's God so it's His way, then what do you expect the Christian to do... keep the information away from you, just so you aren't irritated? The Christian thinks, 'okay, this person doesn't know what I know... I need to share this information so that we're on the same page, then they can make their decision.'

The Christian isn't thinking, 'I'm going to tell this person about Jesus Christ and they'd better accept it as the truth because I say so, and I'm right!' or 'these pagans have no choice, I get to decide who's good and who isn't, so believe my religious beliefs or go jump in a lake of fire!'
That would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

Christians are *disciples* - not people who make the rules and dole out judgments. Christians are *followers of Christ* and care about His lessons. That's why this is so important to us. We can't help it that we listen to scripture and believe that it's God's holy Word. We want to share it, not only because we believe it's vital, but also because we find tremendous happiness and tremendous depth, wisdom, insight, and growth in it. It's not as if the gospel is spread in order to force people to believe; it's spread because we *hope* they believe. It's about love, you know?





Well, I'd say the guy opened himself up to debate by posting on a Pagan board, surely he knew he was walking into the lion's den. He opened the discussion by offering to share his beliefs. Turn about is certainly fair and he should also be willing to hear what the beliefs he condemns are actually all about. If he wasn't willing to "hear" what Crystal had to say, all he had to do was walk out of the lion's den, eh? If Pagans aren't allowed to discuss their beliefs on a Pagan discussion board, no matter who wanders in, then free speech doesn't mean what I thought it meant.


I didn't have the impression that "SAGA" wasn't "allowing" the pagans on the board to discuss their beliefs, or that he was trying to force his beliefs on anyone; it looked to me like he was making himself available. Christians believe in free speech, too, you know!




And that's where it should cut both ways. If they don't respect all faiths they can't complain when others don't respect their right to "witness" about theirs.


If a Christian is speaking to a nonbeliever about their faith, sharing it in hopes that the other person will perhaps become a believer - that has nothing to do with "not respecting" the nonbeliever's faith/religion. I have an aunt who is Buddhist; I have tremendous respect for Buddhism, but I still hope she ends up coming to Jesus Christ someday. I have tremendous respect for many things that people here at MysticWicks have said about various issues, and I can see that people here love their families, their children, and so forth just as much as any Christian, if not more. I know that modern pagans hold many beliefs which are actually rather similar to my own, aside from the beliefs in different gods and the rede, which I see as going against my belief in the issue of sin that mankind struggles with. I have deep respect for all cultures and differing customs; in fact, as a Christian, I see them all as gifts from God. Sharing the Gospel with someone in no way implies disrespect; but, I can see why it might be understood that way by people sometimes, particularly if a person doesn't understand why the Gospel is being shared to begin with. Christians should somehow convey that they do have respect for various religious traditions and their teachings in some way, though, because that might help people to understand that their religion and their ideas aren't being attacked.

[Lunacie]

I didn't have the impression that "SAGA" wasn't "allowing" the pagans on the board to discuss their beliefs, or that he was trying to force his beliefs on anyone; it looked to me like he was making himself available. Christians believe in free speech, too, you know!

I really wasn't debating Saga's posting style or right to post, that remark was directed to the poster on this thread who criticized the original poster for explaining her own religion to a Christian who entered a Pagan discussion board.

I don't think that all Christians are judgmental and condemning of beliefs that differ from their own, but there are plenty of them and some Pagans become angry when they are accused and condemned. **shrug** They're just being human, eh? Besides, it gets old being told the same message over and over by every new Christian we meet, as if by hearing the message just one more time we will finally accept the truth. Some of us know more about Christianity (either because we used to be Christians ourselves or because we have studied various religions) than the people who are trying to convert us. But if we try to discuss why we think they're mistaken we are called "tools of Satan" or something along that line. How could we possibly teach them about their religion, eh? :sadeyes:

[StephanieAine]

I really wasn't debating Saga's posting style or right to post, that remark was directed to the poster on this thread who criticized the original poster for explaining her own religion to a Christian who entered a Pagan discussion board.

I don't think that all Christians are judgmental and condemning of beliefs that differ from their own, but there are plenty of them and some Pagans become angry when they are accused and condemned. **shrug** They're just being human, eh? Besides, it gets old being told the same message over and over by every new Christian we meet, as if by hearing the message just one more time we will finally accept the truth. Some of us know more about Christianity (either because we used to be Christians ourselves or because we have studied various religions) than the people who are trying to convert us. But if we try to discuss why we think they're mistaken we are called "tools of Satan" or something along that line. How could we possibly teach them about their religion, eh? :sadeyes:

<nodding> Yes - I hear what you're saying. Lots of judging going around, and plenty of misinterpretation and convenient misapplication of scripture. Yep. And I would imagine that it *would* be frustrating to hear it all the time, constantly being told about the basic salvation concept as if it's the first time you've ever been presented with it. It's probably flat out annoying, or depending on how it's done, something that would make a person pretty angry.

You mentioned that some pagans know more about Christianity than others etc... that's so true; but from my perspective as a Christian, it's also frustrating to talk to people who *don't* know but *think* they know. There are MANY outright fallacies that are spread around by well-meaning nonbelievers, talking amongst themselves, that perpetuate false ideas among nonbelievers... ideas that have nothing to do with Christianity itself, but rather with the political/denominational angle (and frequently information that comes from such an unusual source and something that may not even be in the Bible at all, or in basic Christian vocabulary).

Or, worse, things that they heard from someone who heard from someone who read it on a website (as an example) - and yet it's being discussed as if "this is what Christians believe" (or "most" or "many"). Some people can read between the lines and use their past experience and education to figure out what's what, which things are accurate, which things belong on Unsolved Mysteries, and which things might be an old Saturday Night Live skit with the Church Lady. Other people have no clue, and so assume it's all accurate down to the last detail, figuring that if someone says they know it, it must be true.

It concerns me a lot, because I've talked to people who *are Christian* and have no idea about the basic beliefs! I was just telling Taiyo yesterday in PM that my grandmother and I had an interesting conversation one day. Bear in mind, Gram is pretty old now, and not in the best of health. She is a Christian but has never been a big churchgoer; basically, she and my grandfather celebrated Christmas etc... but basically just sort of because they weren't Jewish, if that makes sense <g>... well, one day a couple of years ago, we were talking about something... whatever it was, Jesus became a topic of conversation. I remember ending a sentence with something like, "... and after all, Jesus *was* a Jew."

My grandmother cocked an eyebrow at me and said, "No, honey, Jesus was a Christian." I tried VERY HARD not to smile. Sure, I could have gone into the whole theological thing in order to explain to her why that just did *NOT* make any sense, but believe me, it would have taken AGES to convince her of that (in fact, she followed up the discussion with a remark later that day: "If Jesus was Jewish, then WE would be Jewish." And, of course, a look that said 'oh, you should pay attention to your Bible' LOL). I know Jesus Himself probably had a good giggle, and He knows her heart, so it's cool <g>.

Anyway, there are SO many people who use the title "Christian" as a way of identifying themselves as **nice people** and not really having much of an interest in theology or Bible reading, because they are happy with life as it is... and maybe have no idea at all that there's even a REASON to dig deep, you know? If someone at MW asked my grandmother about Christian doctrine, she'd certainly answer your question, and she'd LOOK like she was completely serious and basing her information on scripture, but you'd get some off-kilter info, that's for certain. I know my grandmother isn't the only Christian who lacks information about their own religion - because I've seen some very perplexing websites that teach all sorts of unexplainable stuff. Interesting thing: those sites tend to be the ones people refer to in arguments, or to back up their points!

I've also seen a zillion "ex-Christian" sorts of web pages/articles etc., and often people are screaming about Christian theology but they aren't really TALKING about theology; they're complaining about something Pastor Joe Blow said on Sunday, which ends up being considered "what Christians believe." Maybe I'm bonkers, but to me, it's a sad thing to give up on Christianity based upon odd information given by warped people, or experiences with organized church groups which may or may not be basing their teachings on what Jesus Christ teaches. I'm not particularly thrilled with organized churches lately, because I'm finding that fewer and fewer of them are actually scriptural, and few of them offer anything beyond "seeker" level (which is difficult, as many of you well know from your own common refrain of "where are all the Advanced (Insert Topic) books?" <g>). Christians need to grow, and I know I certainly do - so I find that it's best to do that in small group settings and alone right now. As a Celtic Christian, it fits with my beliefs, and I don't deal with any political mumbo jumbo.

(And this is also why I'm working so hard on my book; I know I'm not the only Christian out here who feels this way.)

I'm sorry people are using phrases like "tool of Satan" when speaking about you; that's not fair. That's attacking YOU. Why can't they just *say it* if they're worried that Satan is somehow involved with paganism or whatever, and tell you what their actual concerns are and what they believe? Why wouldn't it be just as easy to say things that are good about Christianity and keep the focus on the message they want to give, rather than on their negative opinions of paganism/witchcraft?

That kind of reasoning doesn't jive with me. Sure, Christians who are evangelising certainly are going to be concerned about paganism - but really, it's so obvious, it can basically be left alone. It would make more sense for people to talk about their own faith, speaking from their own knowledge and beliefs concerning Christianity and scripture, rather than pointing fingers. But I think that there are a lot of misinformed Christians who think they're being "stronger Christians" if they notice and comment on everything they see as sin. They think they're doing right, but I think part of it may be that they're feeling worried about sin in their own lives, you know? They *must* be hurting in some way, or they wouldn't need to attack people that way. Please, try not to let them bother you if they call you a "tool of Satan" - they don't know WHAT they're talking about, honestly. And the truth is that Christians aren't immune to sin anyway, so its not like we have a monopoly on sinlessness! Nobody is perfect. (Jesus Himself said that he didn't come to save the righteous, but to save the sinners. Thankfully, I count myself among the latter group, and just strive toward being in the former group.)

BTW, while I'm thinking of it - I'm so glad that this thread happened, and I'm so glad I'm talking to all of you here. People say that such conversation can't happen between pagans and Christians, but I think that's only true if people are unwilling to speak, unwilling to think, and unwilling to honestly consider what another person is saying. Thankfully, this thread has been made up of many people who really do have an interest in open communication... so I feel very encouraged.

[Lunacie]

I'm glad this thread ended up going in this direction too. I used to think it would be a good thing for those who follow different religions to get together and discuss the things that are similar about their beliefs. But I've really learned more and gotten closer to some Christians by talking about the differences, and why they are different. It hasn't made me feel like the gulf between us is any bigger this way, which has been suprising.

[StephanieAine]

I'm glad this thread ended up going in this direction too. I used to think it would be a good thing for those who follow different religions to get together and discuss the things that are similar about their beliefs. But I've really learned more and gotten closer to some Christians by talking about the differences, and why they are different. It hasn't made me feel like the gulf between us is any bigger this way, which has been suprising.

That's excellent! I'm really glad to hear that.

Makes me feel a little bit like this guy: :fpeace:

(Okay, I just wanted to use that smiley, I admit it, LOL)

[StephanieAine]

Crystal - if you could, would you post an update on the "SAGA" situation? Are things okay? Did any sort of conversation take place that seemed to give things a helpful resolution? Or were there more problems?

I think we'd all be really interested to know how things are. You were pretty upset; I'm hoping that things are a little better. Or maybe that you might feel like discussing things a bit more. Hate to see the dialogue crash and burn over here <g>.

[Equinox]

StephanieAine wrote:



I'm hearing *what denominations believe* - which can even mean an extremely tiny denomination with few members whose beliefs may conflict drastically with those of the majority of the population. ****I'm talking here about *general* Christianity*** - ….an *extremely tiny* number of Christians who have decided such a thing by themselves, not from something in the Bible's teachings.

I mentioned several times that I’m talking about a large number of major denominations, such as Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc. All of these denominations officially believe in eternal torture for all non-Christians (you can check on their official web pages - I have for all of these and many more).

I’m not talking about tiny minorities. Depending on the doctrine (we discussed a few different ones), I’ve check based on their webpages, or on scientific poll data, such as that by Gallup. If you don’t believe me, don’t take my word for it, check their webpages of doctrine yourself. Test your views as well. Compare the data, not gut feelings of what we may wish werev true.

As far as whether or not such views are all based on the Bible’s teaching, I’ve read the entire bible cover to cover (have you?), and the different verses can be used one way or the other to support all these views. In fact, all these different conflicting Christian groups explicitly claim that **only** their view is Biblically supported, and uses various verses to "prove" it, including those many Christians who see only the KJV as inspired.

I have to go (crying baby and rampant 2 year old), so we’ll have to discuss this later if at all. I truly wish you were right that the majority of Christianity was tolerant of others and respected other spiritual paths. However, my decade as a Christian, and the extensive data from all these major groups themselves makes this hard to believe.

Blessings-

[StephanieAine]

I mentioned several times that I’m talking about a large number of major denominations, such as Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc. All of these denominations officially believe in eternal torture for all non-Christians (you can check on their official web pages - I have for all of these and many more).

I’m not talking about tiny minorities. Depending on the doctrine (we discussed a few different ones), I’ve check based on their webpages, or on scientific poll data, such as that by Gallup. If you don’t believe me, don’t take my word for it, check their webpages of doctrine yourself. Test your views as well. Compare the data, not gut feelings of what we may wish werev true.

As far as whether or not such views are all based on the Bible’s teaching, I’ve read the entire bible cover to cover (have you?), and the different verses can be used one way or the other to support all these views. In fact, all these different conflicting Christian groups explicitly claim that **only** their view is Biblically supported, and uses various verses to "prove" it, including those many Christians who see only the KJV as inspired.




Egads.

First, yes, I have "read the Bible cover to cover" - numerous times, and on an ongoing basis. It's part of everyday spirituality for me. I use the NIV as well as the KJV, and occasionally the Pentateuch and Haftorahs if I need to research something based upon Jewish teaching. I've been a Christian forever, basically, although my serious study didn't begin until I was around twelve years old; that's also around the time that I began studying the Celtic traditions. So, let's say, a lifetime of Christian belief and roughly 20 years of Celtic. I'm in my late thirties, so as you can see, it's been quite a stretch.


But regardless of all of that - I'm not sure why you're acting as if I've been sitting here denying the doctrine concerning hell and salvation. I never claimed that such teaching isn't one of the core teachings of Christianity; it absolutely is part of it, and in the posts I've written in the thread, I've discussed at length my theories on why Christians approach pagans with crappy attitudes and so forth, and why they seem to be so focused on hell rather than on the deeper message of the Gospel.

A person does *not* have to have some terrifying "turn or burn" experience in order to come to Jesus Christ; in fact, it's possible to simply become a believer because you *love God* - and consider the afterlife business as something rather *secondary* - to say the least. Frankly, I don't even THINK about the whole hell/heaven thing; I've met people who sit around talking about all the presents they hope they get when they go to heaven, or chat happily about wanting God to give them a mansion in the sky with a brand new car in the driveway (presumably fitted for driving on heavenly roads) - and when I hear that kind of talk, it makes me *queasy.*


Faith shouldn't be about what you "get" out of God, so I don't even WORRY about the whole hell/heaven thing - and when I teach others about the faith, I talk about the relationship I have with God, and the lessons I learn through scripture. I explain the deepening spirituality that occurs over time, and how it enriches my life and allows me to help other people. It's about ***other people**** not about ***me****. This is also why I don't understand the whole thing about people wanting a religious "experience" because to me, it's about *relationship* not something that "happens" to you, or something you "feel." Similarly, I think it's pretty shallow to become a Christian out of a fear of hell.



It's a bit inaccurate to say that "All of these denominations officially believe in eternal torture for all non-Christians" - you're making it sound as if the "top dogs" at the denominational headquarters sat around and *invented* the doctrine, when in fact these are in *the Bible.* The denominations believe it because it's written in holy scripture that they respect as the Word of God. But I can see why this bothers anyone who isn't a Christian - but I've got some news that most Christians I've known seem to gloss over, or not discuss at all: **it is NOT in the Bible that "all non-Christians" will go to Hell.**



As a matter of fact, large chunks of scripture discuss the fact that Jesus died for people of all times and beliefs, including those who lived and died before Jesus Himself was born, which means that he also died for pagans. In the New Testament, the book of Hebrews has an extensive discussion about the faith of the patriarchs in the O.T., and covers the issue beautifully... showing that the issue has to do with *faith* and *choice.* If you read this alongside the portion of the Book of Acts which tells the story of the discussion with the pagans and talks about their "unknown god" you'll get an even deeper look at the issue.



The kind of attitudes that are held by the "KJV only" crowd tend to be similar to mainstream Protestant groups, but amplified. (Many smaller nondenominational churches are KJV only, as well as Charismatic and Pentecostal churches - but the mainstream denominations, such as the Presbyterians, will use the NIV or the KJV, or NKJV - whatever - because the belief is that the Bible is divinely inspired, therefore God sees to it that translations throughout history are 'protected' in a way.



This is a big difference from the KJV-Only crowd who have concerns about Satanic influence in scripture translation. A Presbyterian would say that's nonsense, because Satan can't influence God's Word). The KJV-Only people often have other unusual beliefs, such as saying that if you don't "speak in tongues" you can't really pray to God because he can't hear you! (YES, I've actually been *told* that... because my daughter and I briefly attended a nondenominational Charismatic church just to see what they were all about... and after a few visits, a woman on the staff tried to "force" me to speak in tongues. Quite laughable really... and she wasn't too happy when I just sort of *looked* at her. They ended up shunning me because, according to them, if you don't do it, you must have "a demon" preventing it. <cough>. This is something you'd NEVER hear in a Presbyterian church - no WAY.)




I'm getting the impression that the Heaven/Hell issue is a big problem and something that people are very peeved about - and I absolutely understand there are LOTS of beliefs that are being attributed to Christians, "many" Christians, "most" Christians, etc. that just aren't accurate... or are being passed from person to person in a way that ends up skewing the theology to the point that it gets really confusing - so if the Hell/Heaven issue is one that needs to be discussed and tossed around, then I'm totally fine with discussing it. Ask away <g>.



As far as the comment about the Bible being something that can be used to support various ideas - ("and the different verses can be used one way or the other to support all these views" -E.) - I will agree with you... *to a point.*

... Yes, the Bible can be, and often is, used to support screwy ideas; however, the Bible actually isn't intended to "support" ANY ideas. The Bible is intended to say what it says and for us to read and understand it. The question is, how do we do that? Do we take a literalist view, or do we see it as a metaphoric text? Or a combination?

When people start *using* the Bible *in order to support ideas* (particularly ones that they deeply want to find there for their own reasons, perhaps motivated by their own needs/desires rather than wanting to learn and commune with God), that's when things can get scary (Jim Jones and the Jonestown massacre comes to mind here, as well as David Koresh, and also the people who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart).

For reasons such as those, I'm a literalist (I won't get into this here, but I say that because the literalist view has the benefit of being a means to "weed out" earthly agendas, since you can't "insert" ideas the way you can with a non-literal approach). Now, you may be thinking, how can you be a believer in a literal interpretation if so much of the Bible contains allegory and metaphor? Is Jesus ACTUALLY a door, or is he LIKE a door, or what?


The only way I can explain this is to say that, with the guidance of God (meaning through the Holy Spirit), it's not difficult to read scripture and see which is literally "as written" and which parts contain deeper meanings within their layers of meaning. The teachings about hell and heaven are written in both literal and figurative language, but - you're quite right - those teachings about Hell and condemnation *are* present.


The thing is, Hell is the *last* thing to worry about. Jesus wasn't walking around preaching about Hell and fire all the time, trying to scare people to death; he was going around with *good* news, not bad. He taught lessons for this life *and* the next. There are spiritual truths too important to be missed, but unfortunately, when some evangelists hit the streets, all they do is talk about hell! All they do is talk about sin and evil, demons and fire. Pointless... and it doesn't do ANYTHING to spread the Gospel. They might as well stay home, because they aren't even giving the message.



I get the feeling that neopagans are very used to having Christians scream at them, and I'm very sorry for that... because I know that Jesus wouldn't do that, and I will never understand why His followers *do.* It always seems like the person with the biggest chip on his shoulder is the one who wants to go out an evangelize, while the quieter, more sensitive people end up being too shy to say anything, LOL. You'll have to forgive us for being bozos nine times out of ten; we mean well <g>.





I have to go (crying baby and rampant 2 year old), so we’ll have to discuss this later if at all. I truly wish you were right that the majority of Christianity was tolerant of others and respected other spiritual paths. However, my decade as a Christian, and the extensive data from all these major groups themselves makes this hard to believe.

Even if someone believes every single letter in the Bible is literally true and accepts every core teaching one zillion percent, that does *not* mean that they are "intolerant of others" or have no respect for other spiritual paths. As I said in a previous message, I absolutely have respect for other religions and cultures etc., and I'm totally tolerant - I just love God, and I believe that the Gospel message is vital, as well as being deeply fulfilling for spiritual life. I believe it with everything I am, every ounce of me. A person doesn't have to agree with another person's religion and believe the same things are true in order to have respect and tolerance toward others, you know?

[Phoenix Blue]

It's a bit inaccurate to say that "All of these denominations officially believe in eternal torture for all non-Christians" - you're making it sound as if the "top dogs" at the denominational headquarters sat around and *invented* the doctrine, when in fact these are in *the Bible.*
Yes - a book which was itself put together and cropped by the "top dogs" at the Council of Nicea some 1600 years ago. :)

[IvyWitch]

Yes - a book which was itself put together and cropped by the "top dogs" at the Council of Nicea some 1600 years ago. :)

Do we really need to start *that* argument here?

[StephanieAine]

Bible history; Nicea myths and facts; various links and articles for your review:

<begin paste>
source: http://www.gospelcom.net/ibs/bibles/about/3.php
The Bible was not written in one specific year or in a single location. The Bible is a collection of writings, and the earliest ones were set down nearly 3500 years ago. So let's start at the beginning of this fascinating story.The first five books of the Bible are attributed to Moses and are commonly called the Pentateuch (literally "five scrolls").Moses lived between 1500 and 1300 BC, though he recounts events in the first eleven chapters of the Bible that occurred long before his time (such as the creation and the flood).These earliest accounts were handed on from generation to generation in songs, narratives, and poetry.


In those early societies there was no writing as yet and people passed on these oral accounts with great detail and accuracy. The earliest writing began when symbols were scratched or pressed on clay tablets. The Egyptians refined this technique and developed an early form of writing known as hieroglyphics. The Bible tells us that Moses was "educated in all the learning of the Egyptians", so he would have been familiar with the major writing systems of his time. We also read that God gave Moses "two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God"(Exodus 31:18). All this leads to the conclusion that the earliest writings in the Bible were set down around 1400 BC.



The writings of the thirty or so other contributors to the Old Testament span a thousand years! They recount the times and messages from Moses' successor, Joshua, to the last of the Old Testament prophets, Malachi, who wrote his little tract around 450 BC.



Then there is a 500-year period when no writings were contributed to the Bible. This is the period between the testaments, when Alexander the Great conquered much of the world and when the Greek language was introduced to the Hebrews. Indeed, they began to use Greek so much that the Hebrew language was replaced by Greek and by another language, Aramaic, which was spoken all over that area of the world at that time.



The New Testament was written during a much shorter period, i.e. during the last half of the first century AD.



<LI class=IndentNoLine>
It was the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, which ignited the flame that produced the New Testament, as the new faith swept across the Near East and then westward to Greece and on to Rome.

<LI class=IndentNoLine>
Half of the New Testament books were contributed by one man, the Apostle Paul, in the epistles he sent to groups of new Christians and to his assistants Timothy and Titus.


The Bible closes with a majestic book of visions and dramatic views of the future. It was penned by the aged Apostle John around 95 AD and describes the new heaven and the new earth when God's kingdom will embrace the universe and all rebellion and death will be a thing of the past.


In looking at all these dates, the important thing to remember is that when the Bible was written is not as important as what was written. However, the when is important also as we sense how God's presence persisted through the centuries and gave us "in the fullness of time" the full-orbed revelation of salvation and hope through his son Jesus Christ.
<end paste>

The Bible re: prior to the printing press:
http://www.gospelcom.net/ibs/bibles/about/18.php (http://www.gospelcom.net/ibs/bibles/about/18.php)

Versions of the Bible/time periods
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15367a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15367a.htm)

First Council of Nicea:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm)

A page about the Council and the Bible - Myths on the Internet:
http://www.tertullian.net/rpearse/nicaea.html (http://www.tertullian.net/rpearse/nicaea.html)

What Happened at Nicea?
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/51h/51h011.html (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/51h/51h011.html)

[Phoenix Blue]

Do we really need to start *that* argument here?
Taiyo no Miko, It's pretty clear you have nothing to contribute to the discussion at this point. Can you therefore keep statements such as "Do we really need to start *that* argument here" out of it, please?

Stephanie, I was actually talking more about the books that were not included by the council's decision, such as the Book of Enoch (http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm), the Gospel of Thomas, and a few other writings (http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/outside.stm). To an outsider, it would certainly appear that some of the Council's decisions were based more on politics than on what was truly "inspired by God," especially when (in this outsider's opinion) the only one who can truly say whether his writing was inspired is the author.

[IvyWitch]

Taiyo no Miko, It's pretty clear you have nothing to contribute to the discussion at this point. Can you therefore keep statements such as "Do we really need to start *that* argument here" out of it, please?

Excuse me, but I would appriciate it if you would not tell me when I am finished contributing to a discussion. Perhaps if the statement you made wasn't so blatantly obnoxious I would not have said anything. And by making rude comments such as that above you are certainly not contributing much either.
And, it isn't that I have nothing left to contribute - first of all I have been on vacation, and it seems that Stephanie has a better grasp on the subject of the history of the Bible than I do. Just because I have nothing to say at the moment doesn't mean I have nothing left for the discussion.

[StephanieAine]

Stephanie, I was actually talking more about the books that were not included by the council's decision, such as the Book of Enoch (http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm), the Gospel of Thomas, and a few other writings (http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/outside.stm). To an outsider, it would certainly appear that some of the Council's decisions were based more on politics than on what was truly "inspired by God," especially when (in this outsider's opinion) the only one who can truly say whether his writing was inspired is the author.
I'm not sure whether you read my previous message posting (with the article excerpt and reference links about what happened at the first council) - but I fail to see how the above applies to the subject. Then again, maybe I'm missing something. And I'm not sure exactly why you see this as having anything to do with whether God's Word was inspired or not; I believe that it was, and I don't see any evidence for what you said in your previous post about it being "cropped by the "top dogs" at the Council of Nicea some 1600 years ago <grin>" - so if you could explain, that would be very helpful.

Maybe I'm confused here, but exactly how did the issue of "cropping" apply to the issue - (intolerance among Christians and pagans) - that we have been discussing?

[StephanieAine]

After posting the previous message and realizing maybe you didn't see the references, I went back and highlighted one particular article in red that you might be interested in (the closest thing I can think of that may have something in common with what you're saying). However, the other articles are, in my view, more important and give a better understanding of the subject itself.

edit to add: this is in reference to post #108

[Equinox]

StephanieAine wrote:

It's a bit inaccurate to say that "All of these denominations officially believe in eternal torture for all non-Christians" - you're making it sound as if the "top dogs" at the denominational headquarters sat around and *invented* the doctrine, when in fact these are in *the Bible.* The denominations believe it because it's written in holy scripture that they respect as the Word of God. But I can see why this bothers anyone who isn't a Christian - but I've got some news that most Christians I've known seem to gloss over, or not discuss at all: **it is NOT in the Bible that "all non-Christians" will go to Hell.**

Um, I’m confused. The first 2 sentences above say that Hell is in the Bible, while the last sentence says that Hell is not in the Bible. Are you saying it is or it isn’t? From my point of view, many different religions are described in the Bible, depending on which book you read, so a few describe a Hell for people who are bad (Rev), while others describe a Hell for non-Christians (Gos. Of John, Paul’s letters). On balance, I agree with your first two sentences – that the Bible mainly describes a Hell for non-Christians. As you pointed out, nearly all Christian Churches think so too.


because the belief is that the Bible is divinely inspired, therefore God sees to it that translations throughout history are 'protected' in a way.

Yeah, that’s exactly what I’ve heard from many different Christians. It doesn’t square with the dozens of different English versions of the Bible (which are significantly different in some verses) or with the many rewritings of different passages of scripture described in books such as “the orthodox corruption of scripture” by Dr. Ehrman though. You link to a Catholic site for different Bible versions, so it seems you know about this, and know that the Catholic Bible has different books than the NIV or others. So if it was "protected", it was protected pretty poorly. It seems to me that claiming that it is the holy spirit’s job to “protect” the scripture is blaspheming the holy spirit, and thus buying a ticket straight to Hell according to Mt 12:31. I don't know how those who think it was "protected" get around this, but to each his own.


Even if someone believes every single letter in the Bible is literally true and accepts every core teaching one zillion percent, that does *not* mean that they are "intolerant of others" or have no respect for other spiritual paths. …. A person doesn't have to agree with another person's religion and believe the same things are true in order to have respect and tolerance toward others, you know?

Some Christians (I don’t know exactly how many) don’t see it that way, based on the Bible. I have to agree with them that the Bible doesn’t preach acceptance of other religions. One of the main points of the entire old testament is that other religions are not acceptable, so much so that even offering someone a chance to worship another god is punishable by the death penalty (Duet 13:6). The condemnation of other religions is repeated in the new testament too. According to 2Cor6, Christians aren’t to even be friends with non-Chrisitians, and 2John1:10 forbids Christians from letting non-Christians into their homes. There are many more. Sure, we can find a few verses that appear to be more tolerant (such as the one you mention in Acts), but again, we have to remember that the books of the Bible describe different religions, so any Christian who wants to “follow” the Bible has to pick and choose which books to follow. I’m glad that you’ve found a way to be tolerant – that is what is most important. :yourock:


I read the links you posted – thanks! They were generally pretty good, and it is important for all of us to point out that the books of the bible weren’t chosen at Nicea (though debate at the council certainly affected the process of choosing the books, which wasn’t finished in 325). Nicea was mainly about Pauline Christianity trying to stamp out other Christianities such as the Ebionites, Arians, Docetists, and Gnostics. Your links talk a little about that.

I think we disagree about dates and such of the writing of the books that ended up in our Bibles. In determining things like this, it is important to listen to both sides and to focus on the evidence after hearing many different people’s reasons. Christian Apologeticists have been propagating some legends that don’t hold up to examination. Here are some of them that are clearly false based on the evidence:



Then there is a 500-year period when no writings were contributed to the Bible. This is the period between the testaments, when Alexander the Great conquered much of the world ….

The New Testament was written during .. the last half of the first century AD.

The Bible closes with a majestic book of visions and dramatic views of the future. It was penned by the aged Apostle John …… .

This is already a really long post, but virtually no Biblical historians or Bible scholars believe any of these points. We don’t know exactly when many of the books of the OT were written, but many such as Esther, Ecclesiastes, Tobit and many others could easily have been as late as the second century BCE. The Gospels themselves were written in the last half of the first century, but not the entire NT. Several books of the NT appear to have been written in the second century CE, perhaps as late as 130. Lastly, there are many reasons to think that the Apostle John didn’t write Rev. It appears to be written by some person named John, but John was a common name back then (as it is now). I’m happy to discuss any of these points a greater length, but you might want to start at www.earlychristianwritings.com for a good overview of what different scholars and historians think.

Have a fun day!

[StephanieAine]

Hi Equinox! Thanks for your message - I *will* be giving you a better response than this one (with some actual *discussion* in it, LOL) - but at the moment I'm swamped with work, behind in my chapters, and trying to get myself caught up. So I can't delve into things here too deeply at the moment. Once I'm up to speed and everything, I'll return to the thread and give you a better response, because I definitely want to touch on some of the things you said. Interesting subject here, and you said a few things that really interest me because I think we're hitting a core theological difference in perspective that may, at least partially, account for some of the "back and forth" stuff we've had here. If I can wiggle around in the subject and mull things over, I might be able to say something articulate and possibly break through the communication barrier. <g> We'll see anyway, right? <G>

I'm looking forward to Phoenix's response to my post, too... I'll keep watching the thread.

Again, Equinox, thanks!