christian wicca? [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

Aine of the Fae

June 28th, 2004, 08:05 PM

xmo0driinq

June 28th, 2004, 09:21 PM

thanks to the both of you. *goes to do more reading*

arienh

June 28th, 2004, 09:31 PM

Ok, I'm rambling, somebody tell me to shut up now.

No noooo don't shut up, that was so interesting! I never knew that part about the Kasheph being translated to witch. I feel inspired to learn more :)

And personally I do think you can be a Christian Wiccan, that's what my MIL-to-be is :D

Aine of the Fae

June 28th, 2004, 09:35 PM

No noooo don't shut up, that was so interesting! I never knew that part about the Kasheph being translated to witch. I feel inspired to learn more :)

And personally I do think you can be a Christian Wiccan, that's what my MIL-to-be is :D

Christian Wiccan or Christian Witch? Cause it's all in the words! Words have so much power, and the word Wicca (in modern terms) describes the religion started by Geral Gardner and expanded upon by Alexander and others. Now personally I think a person can do what they want, call it what they want, and have fun with it, however others tend to get uptight about such things.

I am still hesitant about even calling myself a Christian Witch, it doesn't really completely describe what I am, however it's so much easier to say than

non-Fundamentalist Charismatic Christian Mystic with slight Neo-Pagan tendencies....

Theres

June 28th, 2004, 09:38 PM

... I'm a Christian Witch (there I said it, ok?) and while it is certainly not an easy path to follow, I find it to be the most rewarding path for me at this point in my spiritual journey.

but that's not the same as a Christian Wiccan, is it?
(and i thought the translation 'witch' was perverted from 'poisoner'?)

xmo0driinq

June 28th, 2004, 09:52 PM

i meant christian-wicca. because you can be a witch without being wiccan.

arienh

June 28th, 2004, 10:18 PM

Christian Wiccan or Christian Witch? Cause it's all in the words! Words have so much power, and the word Wicca (in modern terms) describes the religion started by Geral Gardner and expanded upon by Alexander and others. Now personally I think a person can do what they want, call it what they want, and have fun with it, however others tend to get uptight about such things.

Well I can't answer for my MIL-to-be but I personally think Christianity and Wicca can be compatible. For example, Christianity generally believes in one God, Wicca generally believes in one entity which we divide into masculine and feminine aspects.

I think all the incompatible stuff like original sin would depend on your particular beliefs which is why mixing the two wouldn't work for some people.

CeSeun

June 28th, 2004, 10:41 PM

I had the same question a couple months ago! Well, I am still developing my path. And it's funny but learning a bit about the Catholic faith as well. We believe in one God but don't we also believe in the Holy Trinity...so isn't it a bit like the Wiccan God & Goddess? Like I said still learning and will keep on doing so. I think it can be done..and will do my hardest to prove it! :uhhuhuh:

TYRRHENUS

June 29th, 2004, 01:47 AM

I think Christian Wicca is impossible. The whole point of Christianity is a spiritual salvation in the next world based upon an individual's actions in this material world - a system of punishments and rewards which Wicca refutes. Wiccans, unless they have changed their theology (?), are not in search of salvation FROM this world, but rather strive to get in touch WITH it. (I have not yet met one Wiccan who believes in eternal damnation.) That is without getting into how ardent both faiths are when it comes to the number of deities in the universe, and/or what the vehicle is for religious enlightenment, or the role of the sexes, or take your pick... Remembering this is my personal opinion: I think one of these was specifically designed to be the polar opposite of the other. So we really shouldn't try to force a synthesis.

Theres

June 29th, 2004, 02:25 AM

I think Christian Wicca is impossible... I think one of these was specifically designed to be the polar opposite of the other. So we really shouldn't try to force a synthesis.

hallelujah! testify brother!

For example, Christianity generally believes in one God, Wicca generally believes in one entity which we divide into masculine and feminine aspects.

that's not what THIS Wiccan believes.
but back them both up and crash them into each other one more time... maybe next time they'll fit. :rolleyes:

arienh

June 29th, 2004, 02:34 AM

that's not what THIS Wiccan believes.
but back them both up and crash them into each other one more time... maybe next time they'll fit. :rolleyes:

I said 'generally' in an attempt to avoid a post like this. I understand and appreciate that there are a wide range of beliefs in Wicca and that my statement wouldn't include all of them, only the one I thought most common.

arienh

June 29th, 2004, 03:59 AM

Remembering this is my personal opinion: I think one of these was specifically designed to be the polar opposite of the other. So we really shouldn't try to force a synthesis.

Do you mean that you think Wicca was 'designed' to be whatever is opposite to Christianity? Don't you think that concept cheapens it somewhat?

HorseCrow

June 29th, 2004, 06:36 AM

I can see how Christianity might be incorporated into Wicca, because Wicca accepts other religions and does not neccesarily see one as more correct than the other... but how does it work on the Christian side- I mean, there's the whole "No other gods than me"- commandtment?? How does that allow for the wiccan belief ?

Erebus

June 29th, 2004, 08:11 AM

The problem with Christian Wicca is on the "Christian" end, not the "Wicca" end. The "Wicca" end doesn't tend to care much about the baggage a person brings into it. So you're probably asking the wrong choir.

docdoo

June 29th, 2004, 09:24 AM

My feedback on Christian-Wicca is the same as my feedback on every other question of religious validity I've been asked. I refuse to tell ANYONE that their path is not valid, if you choose to worship Cheerios beneath the quarter moon in a field full of daisies AND you can logically defend your belief system in Cheerios then all the more to you.

Quite frankly I have to chuckle at those who insist that the meshings of religions and spiritual paths cannot be valid. I am a Witch with Shamanic tendancies, as well as a few other nifty bits and pieces thrown in for good measure. Simply put the beauty of freedom of religion is that you are free to worship in any way you see fit, provided that you have researched the paths and have an understanding of what they each entail. If you've done that and can still make them work in your head then all the more to you. I'm in no place to stand in judgement of the validity of someone else's path, unless it's painfully obvious that the person has no understanding of what their path really entails.

Til next time,

mucgwyrt

June 29th, 2004, 09:42 AM

xmo0driinq

June 29th, 2004, 10:04 AM

i think it can only if one chooses to lean more towards wicca. i definetly dont believe in what the bible tells, its more like a storybook if you ask me. i think that a person can incorporate the worship of jesus and mary. yet many christian wiccans choose not to go to church and worship as they feel that they can connect with the divine in their home. a very interesting link that explains it is http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/crys/what_is.html

Aine of the Fae

June 29th, 2004, 10:22 AM

Whilst to all intents and purposes I believe in Eclectic paths (and surely wicca + christianity is as eclectic as they come) I just can't quite make this one work in my head. I mean... for hundreds of years, the church has had little other purpose than to squash the beliefs of pagan cultures - "conversion". How can they now turn and embrace them? :huh:

I'm sorry, I just can't get my head around that one - so no, I dont think it could work. Either you would be betraying the church and everything it has stood for for the past millenium or more, or you betray your wiccan rooting and embrace a way of life which has for so long been concerned with wiping out your way of life.

Sadly, I'm with Tyrrhenus.

Ok, here's where the problem with combining Wicca and Christianity lies. You CANNOT combine the dogmatic RELIGION that is PUSHED by the CHURCH. However, you can combine CHRIST-ianity with Wicca, if you are willing to work at it. I am NOT a Christian Wiccan, I am a Christian WITCH, and there are HUGE differences.

But let's take this step by step:

The Bible does NOT forbid the worship of other Gods, it forbids the worship of other Gods before Yahweh. Modern Christianity has managed to do a good job of throwing that commandment out the window as they worship three Gods in one - The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. I know one Christian Wiccan who explained her view of the Trinity as this:

The Father is the Lord, the Holy Spirit is the Lady and the Son (Jesus) is the perfect blending of the two that humans should strive to achieve. (Pretty interesting insight for a 17 year old, huh?)

Now as for the betraying the church part. A true Christian shouldn't be concerned with betraying a human institution such as the church, but instead should worry about betraying (or not) God. And if through deep study of the Bible, much prayer and meditation they feel led to the path of Christian Wicca, don't you think it would be a betrayal for them NOT to follow that path? Fundamentalist Christian are especially keen on being led by the Holy Spirit, but if they feel they are being led somewhere they are uncomfortable with, then they swear up and down it's demons, not the Holy Spirit. There is a flaw with that thinking though. According to Christian theology, when a person becomes a believer, all their sins, all of their past is washed away by the blood of Christ, and Satan and his demons no longer have any influence in their lives. So a leading CAN'T be demonic according to Fundamentalist theology. Either that or the person isn't truly born again, so it really doesn't matter what they do. And by the way, I'm attending a Fundamentalist/Pentecostal church at the moment because I like the passionate worship atmosphere, however the pastor and I have had more than our share of 'discussions' concerning my views of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus.

Another question about blending Christianity and Wicca. What do you believe about the Bible? How deeply have you studied it? Have you even read it? Have you taken a look at the original languages? Do a word study of the words used to describe Witchcraft, only two times is the word Kashaph translated as Witch in the King James Version, in the infamous 'thou shalt not suffer' scripture of Exodus 22:18 and in the 'there shall not be found among you...' passage in Deuteronomy 18:10 Every other time Kashaph is translated as sorceror and it indicates a sort of sexual rape, the bending of anothers will using sexual magic. Now if you want something really interesting go to the Christian Witchery (http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/index.html) page and look under Sacred Rituals. She's got several articles that counter traditional thought on Christian Wicca/Witchcraft and does a much better job than I do of explaining it.

Casting a circle is never forbidden in the Bible. All casting a circle is, is the act of setting aside some sacred space for you to use in a way that you can connect or communicate with the divine. Sounds an awful lot like Yeshua's instruction to find private space for prayer doesn't it?

I used to be one of the people that said you can't combine Christianity and Witchcraft, but I'm doing it, successfully. If you come from Christianity with a very limited viewpoint, with a very literal interpretation of the Bible, then no you can't do it. But I don't think the Bible was ever meant to be taken that literally. I also don't think that we have the real Bible in existence today. The church has managed to twist and mangle it to suit there own goals, removing books as recently as 2 or 3 centuries ago, because they didn't fit the theology that they wanted to push.

From a Pagan perspective, if you are worried about the Bible then you probably need to go to church. And I don't mean to offend anyone, but if you think the two faiths can't be combined, then you are taking the Bible just as literally as the Fundamentalist Christian who is screaming Hellfire and Damnation to anyone who doesn't believe the way they do. If you take the Bible that literally, then you probably shouldn't be a Pagan because it must make you pretty uncomfortable.

Honestly, some of the most closed-minded people I've met in the past six months have been Pagan. I was a fully Pagan Witch for over 13 years when I felt led to follow the path of Christ. This took me, at first, to a Fundamentalist church, Baptism and the whole nine yards. And I was hated by several Pagans for doing that, particularly people who I thought were my own friends. They laughed at me, they taunted me, and someone of them verbally attacked me for doing what I felt, in my heart, needed to be done.

After several months of study, including reading the Bible from cover to cover (you should see the underlining, highlighting and notes in my Bible....) many, many questions asked of my pastor and his wife, many discussions that made my husband's head throb (I mention theology to him now and he runs...) After all that I decided that Fundamentalist Christianity was wrong for me. All of the arguments they used were circular logic, if anyone of them were proven wrong, the rest would collapse. Not to mention I just didn't feel it. But Christian Witchcraft, or more precisely the Christian Mysticism that I now practice, feels right to me. It feels good. And if I question things I don't have to worry about a pastor telling me that Satan is putting doubts in my head and that I can't trust my own God-given logic and rationality, I can't trust the brain God gave me.

Modern Fundamentalist Christians have given more power to Satan than they credit to God and honestly that scares me. Because I believe that the more you worship and focus on a deity they stronger they become. It's no wonder the world has begun to fall apart in the past 100 or so years. That's right around when the Pentecostal movement began and started focusing on taking away Satan's so-called power. Hmmm.. maybe that backfired..... just a thought.

Well, I'm getting way off topic now, so I'll shut up again...

mucgwyrt

June 29th, 2004, 10:26 AM

OK, I see where you're coming from.
BUT if that's the case, then imo it should have a different name - "Christian Wicca" speaks (to me) of the Christian Church, not of a belief in christ.

PS - You see Satan as a specific diety?

Aine of the Fae

June 29th, 2004, 10:57 AM

Ok, I had another really long, well-thought out post all written. I hit post reply and got an error page... and I'm not going to rewrite it.

I don't believe Satan is his own deity, but then again I'm still not sure what my beliefs about Satan are. (I had a whole long post about where he shows up in th eBible, but now my brain is starting to hurt...)

The problem with the words is just that, they are human words, specifically English words, which tend to be very limiting. We have in our heads that a Christian is something specific and a Witch is something specific and the too can't be mixed. However if you look at the pure definitions of the words Christian = Christ-like, Witch=Wise then they are not only compatible, but they blend quite nicely.

Erebus

June 29th, 2004, 11:40 AM

Sorry, Aine... you apparently either don't exist, or have to change your name. :p

Ron

June 29th, 2004, 12:49 PM

If you're a Christian then you should know ...
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Witches are to be put to death.
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Witchcraft is against "God".
And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:
"God" does not like Witchcraft.
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
You cannot sacrifice ANYTHING to any god other than "the LORD", or you will be "utterly destroyed".
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
If you say the name of another god, example: Isis, Cerrudwyn, Don, Danu, Osiris, Morrgaine; you are against "the LORD thy God".
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
This is the FIRST commandment, it appears in almost every version of the bible, and many apostles have it. "The LORD thy God" is to be the most important god to you.
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Same as above.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Acts of gay sex are not permitted, it is an act of the Devil.
And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.
Worms, snails and the like are incarnates of the Devil -- and can therefore not be eaten.
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
Shrimp, Lobster, Crab and the like are incarnates of the Devil -- and can therefore not be eaten.
For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
If you commit an Abomination (act of the Devil) you will be separated from "your people". Killed?

... Maybe you don't follow Exodus, Deuteronomy, Micah or Leviticus, but otherwise these few quotes betray my basic values -- perhaps, not yours.

All Bless.

HorseCrow

June 29th, 2004, 01:13 PM

Those are excellent examples of why I find it extremely hard to see how Christianity and Wicca can be combined.... I just don't see it, I really don't.

Erebus

June 29th, 2004, 01:54 PM

I wasn't aware Christians were obligated to follow the Old Testament... maybe that's why they don't eat shellfish or wear blended fabrics?

...oh, wait....

Ron

June 29th, 2004, 02:18 PM

I wasn't aware Christians were obligated to follow the Old Testament... maybe that's why they don't eat shellfish or wear blended fabrics?

...oh, wait....
The Ten Commandments are from the Old Testament. End of story.

Aine of the Fae

June 29th, 2004, 02:22 PM

I wasn't aware Christians were obligated to follow the Old Testament... maybe that's why they don't eat shellfish or wear blended fabrics?

...oh, wait....

They're not. The New Covenent replace the OT, INCLUDING the Ten Commandments.

Charles, if you're going to quote scripture, try reading through the whole thread where I've actually countered some of those scriptures, in a logical and consistent manner, by pointing out that they are MISTRANSLATED.

Aine of the Fae

June 29th, 2004, 02:23 PM

Sorry, Aine... you apparently either don't exist, or have to change your name. :p

:lol: hmmm... if I don't exist... does that mean I don't have to obey the laws of the land?

Aine of the Fae

June 29th, 2004, 02:51 PM

Well, let's see:

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

The word here translated as witch is Kashaph, or more specifically one who uses power to bend or transform the will of another This is more specifically indicated one who uses sexual power, but we'll let that slide. Modern witches, please tell me, do you use your power to bend the will of another?

Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Again, the word her is Kashaph. Oh, and let's point out that observer of times there, shall we? The literal translation of the word is 'cloud watcher' So, we should put to death our local meteorologist? While many people might agree based on the bad forecasts we tend to get, I highly doubt was the intention of the OT authors.

Originally Posted by Micah 5:12
And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:

Guess what? the word here translated as witchcraft is the verb form of Kashaph, Kasheph. Hmmmm... So what does a person who tries to bend the will of others do? Hmmm.. they try to bend the will of others Again, how many witches here do that?

Originally Posted by Exodus 22:20
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

I don't know about you, but in my practice as a Christian Witch, I DON'T sacrifice unto any other God. I have dedicated myself to one and remain loyal to that ONE. However... I also don't know of any modern witches who practice zâbach do you? Oh, and just in case you didn't know, zâbach, the word translated as sacrifice in this verse literally means the ritual slaughter of animals.

Originally Posted by Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Never said anything about other gods, did I? I don't worship other gods. Therefore this verse does not apply to me. Just because a person is a Witch does not mean they are a polytheist. Even as a full-on Pagan Witch, I was a monotheist. But while we're on that one... What is the True name of God. Do you know? If so, how do you know? And why are you even here? For anyone who speaks the True name of God will instantly cease to exist.

Originally Posted by Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

BEFORE. That doesn't say no other gods at all, just no gods BEFORE YHWH.

Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 5:7
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Same as above.

Originally Posted by Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

What this has to do with Christian Witches I haven't the faintest idea, but... well, since you decided to go there I will.
First of all, gay men don't lie with men as they do with women, this verse indicates viewing your partner as they are, not having sex with a man and pretending he's a woman, but fully acknowledging what you are doing (wanna know where I learned that? A RABBI!!! Yes, a Jewish Rabbi!!!) And another thing, the word abomination does NOT indicate something of the devil, but instead indicates something that is ritually unclean, like a woman on her period is considered to be unclean.

Originally Posted by Leviticus 11:41
And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Again, don't have a clue what this has to do with witchcraft but.... here we have that abomination thing. It means RITUALLY UNCLEAN and has NOTHING I repeat NOTHING to do with the Devil

Originally Posted by Leviticus 11:10
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

Same as above.

Originally Posted by Leviticus 18:29
For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

RITUALLY UNCLEAN Which means if they do not go through the cleansing process they cannot participate in ceremony. And guess what? I know a LOT of witches who go through a cleansing process before they perform any ceremony! Do you go through a ritual cleansing process before you go to church?

ABOMINATIONS ARE NOT OF THE DEVIL. THEY ARE ACTS THAT ARE CONSIDERED RITUALLY UNCLEAN. YOU WILL NOT BE KILLED, YOU SIMPLY CANNOT PARTICIPATE IN RITUAL CEREMONY UNTIL YOU BECOME CLEAN AGAIN!!!

[quote]... Maybe you don't follow Exodus, Deuteronomy, Micah or Leviticus, but otherwise these few quotes betray my basic values -- perhaps, not yours.
No actually I don't, I follow the New Covenant, given by Christ who shed his blood to show the way.

All Bless.
You too.

Morr

June 29th, 2004, 04:09 PM

if you want to go into details here with the whole "witch" deal and the old testament and the old hebrew language its originally written in - just an FYI -

in Judaism, there is a belief that energies, powers, etc DO EXIST. But these energies & powers should not be messed around with & used by humans because it will only bring problems & wrong doings, and because these powers can be used for evil. Kabbalah acknowleges these energies & powers. And teaches how to use these powers as tools for personal spiritual enlightment & connection with God. However, you have to remember that according to the Jewish Tradition - Kabbalah is only to be taught & mastered by men (and sometimes women, depends) over 40 years old, who know the Torah & Jewish law, etc inside out & have mastered that first.

So really, "witch" isnt about Pagans.

Hence, in my opinion, being a Pagan who follows & works with the Christian Pantheon - Doesnt have to be a problem. If you dont follow the Church's laws, but rather Pagan laws, yet with the Christian Pantheon & teachings/myths/stories - There shouldnt be a problem.

Erebus

June 29th, 2004, 05:08 PM

The Ten Commandments are from the Old Testament. End of story.

So, once again, why don't Christians keep Kosher if they're supposed to follow the OT? Since you're obviously a Christian (or else why would you insist on defending the integrity of the religion from these evil sneaksy heathenses?), maybe you can tell us?

Brinclhof

June 29th, 2004, 05:44 PM

Hence, in my opinion, being a Pagan who follows & works with the Christian Pantheon - Doesnt have to be a problem. If you dont follow the Church's laws, but rather Pagan laws, yet with the Christian Pantheon & teachings/myths/stories - There shouldnt be a problem.

That is exactly what I am attempting to do in my path. I am blending the Christian God, Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit and trying to develop a method of worship that is natural and works with the natural energies I feel around me. I have just started down this path and am still working on exactly how I will be doing this but thus far I feel I have had a successful altar blessing and am using that as to help me in my meditations prayers and energy work.

I don't know enough about wicca to say if I one can blend Christianity and wicca but I feel it is possible to blend Christianity (the worship of Jesus Christ, Jehovah and the Holy Spirit) and paganism (natural forces and energies). I am a Christo pagan and have been very surprised by the amount of other people on this forum that have siad similar things since I joined. Perhaps we could broaden this thread from Christian wicca to christian paganism in general. That would give all of us a place to come together and discuss methods of worshipping our Lord and Savior in a nonchurch related way.

I went to church last sunday for the first time since starting down this path and the entire service I was sitting there seeing pagan influences in the service. I attend a Methodist church which probably has the least amount of ritual involved I can only imagine how many pagan influences I would find in a Catholic or Episcopal service where there is more ritual involved.

If you have any questions on my specific path believes or my altar blessing ritual please feel free to pm me.

But to answer the specific question. Yes I think it is possible to blend christianity and wicca but I would need to know more about wicca to say for sure.

There have been several other discussions on this subject over the last few months you might also try checking out those threads as well as checking out the Christo-paganism class that is being taught by the wonderfully knowledgeable Morr. :D

Theres

June 29th, 2004, 05:46 PM

... Hence, in my opinion, being a Pagan who follows & works with the Christian Pantheon - Doesnt have to be a problem. If you dont follow the Church's laws, but rather Pagan laws, yet with the Christian Pantheon & teachings/myths/stories - There shouldnt be a problem.

so by that logic, does my worshipping a Greek Goddess make me a Greek?

Aine of the Fae

June 29th, 2004, 06:16 PM

so by that logic, does my worshipping a Greek Goddess make me a Greek?

It's a completely different comparison. Greek is cultural, Christianity is cross culture. If you worship a Greek Goddes then you are Greco-Pagan, not Greek. Words place such limits on people. If we were all telepathic it would make communication so much easier :lol: But then again, you probably don't want to know some of the thoughts I have. :deviltail

Theres

June 29th, 2004, 06:50 PM

the comparison is not that different at all.

If you dont follow the Church's laws, but rather Pagan laws, yet with the Christian Pantheon & teachings/myths/stories - There shouldnt be a problem.

to me this says "i'm a Pagan who follows the Christian pantheon." which is very similar to "i'm a Pagan who follows the Greek pantheon", and that's fine. however in either case the belief system is Pagan, regardless of the names involved.
it takes more to be a Christian than just saying your Gods are from the Christian pantheon. so i'm still not seeing anything that can reconcile these two completely disparate beliefs. by homogeonising the two religions you diminish both, imo. but then i've never been too concerned with political correctness.

you can be Christian, you can be Pagan, you can even be a Christian who practices witchcraft (although i can't imagine why). but 'Christo-Wiccan' is STILL an oxymoron.

Kanilea

June 29th, 2004, 08:47 PM

Ok I considermyself a christian pagan, which to me means that "GOD" as the christians believe is a mutated form of the stag. But I also believe without his female counter part chritanity is not a full religion. just my opion no one be offened please, I love the bible I think it is a great base a teaching tool for right and wrong (though they put down women cough cough.)
K

Aine of the Fae

June 29th, 2004, 09:10 PM

Ok, I think maybe I'm starting to take this thread a bit too personally, because I'm thinking about it even when I'm not here at MW, and that's probably not a good thing.

Now, the way this is coming across to me is that you are trying to limit the definition of Christian and to limit the definition of Witch. Since you have limited both definitions, I can't be either one, so what am I? Of course, I must ask on what basis you limit the definition of Christian. Are you a Christian? If so, who are you to judge me and what I am or what I do? Did not Christ himself say not to judge? If you are not a Christian, I again ask, who are you to judge me and what I am or what I do? You stand outside of my faith and tell me that it's not right because it doesn't fit into your neat little definition of Christianity OR Witchcraft? Well, I'm sorry, but I am not here to please you or anyone else. My only purpose in life is to find my path to God, to please and to obey God in whatever way I feel that God is leading me to do. You can give God any name you like, God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Jesus, Zeus, Thanatos, Odin, or Oogly-Boogly ugly guy. I don't care what you call him, I believe that ALL Divine energy is of the same source and that source is God. It's my belief, and there isn't anything that is going to change that belief.

Who are you to limit God? Who are you to limit Christ? I find, in the Bible, a wonderful story-telling tradition and great words of Truth. That does not mean I take it as literal 100% fact. However for you to tell me that I can't be Christian and Witch at the same is for you to practice the same kind of religious discrimination and intolerance that you accuse Christians of. At least Christians have firm reasoning behind their religious intolerance. They believe anyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell. So, tell me, what is your reason behind telling me I can't be a Christian Witch, beyond your own self-limiting desire to live your life packaged in a neat little box that doesn't cause you any discomfort at all?

Life is not about what you think can and can't be done. So quit telling me my faith doesn't exist or can't be done. I'm here to tell you that yes there are Christian Witches, yes there are Christian Wiccans and whether you like it or not there will continue to be Christian Witches.

Brinclhof

June 29th, 2004, 10:05 PM

My only purpose in life is to find my path to God, to please and to obey God in whatever way I feel that God is leading me to do. You can give God any name you like, God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Jesus, Zeus, Thanatos, Odin, or Oogly-Boogly ugly guy. I don't care what you call him, I believe that ALL Divine energy is of the same source and that source is God. It's my belief, and there isn't anything that is going to change that belief.

Who are you to limit God? Who are you to limit Christ? I find, in the Bible, a wonderful story-telling tradition and great words of Truth. That does not mean I take it as literal 100% fact. However for you to tell me that I can't be Christian and Witch at the same is for you to practice the same kind of religious discrimination and intolerance that you accuse Christians of. At least Christians have firm reasoning behind their religious intolerance. They believe anyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell. So, tell me, what is your reason behind telling me I can't be a Christian Witch, beyond your own self-limiting desire to live your life packaged in a neat little box that doesn't cause you any discomfort at all?

I agree with you totally Aine. I believe that all the different gods out there are different versions of the same god. It is God's way of reaching different people and cultures. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. That incarnation of God is the one that makes the most sense to me. This belief by most anybody's definition makes me a Christian and I don't think that is going to change.

I do not believe Christianity is the only path to salvation, My wife is a pagan and I believe that we will be together in the after life even though she has not accepted Jesus. She lives a good life and holds to many of the fundamental beliefs found in the bible she just doesn't believe Jesus is her Lord and savior.

I believe the bible is a guide book on how to achieve enlightenment and cannot be taken literally. The bible was written by man and the authors of the bible have their own agenda and the political scene of the time period influenced the lessons Jesus taught. You have to look at the bible in the political context in which it was written to get to the heart of the lessons Jesus was trying to teach.

Ok that is the Christian side of my path. The pagan side. There are supernatural beings that exist around us. There is an astral plane. Since everythign was created by a divine being everything has elements of that being with in it and can be used to help amplify our powers in relationship to the divine and supernatural. Prayer and meditation go hand in hand. Using stones, candels, etc to help manipulate the surrounding engergies (magic) is a method of taping into that latent divine energy and helps bring us closer to God. Jesus used these latent energies to heal and perform miracles. He had direct access to these divine energies due to his duel nature as God and Man. We as humans will never be able to achieve the wonders he did but we should try.

The structure of the church can dilute the message of God and can dilute our connection to the Lord. The church can also have an agenda that can influence its practices.

Ok thats about it. Apparently I have been inspired tonight by this thread because this is the first time I have really been able to dwfine my beliefs in such tangible terms. I know this post is long but I hope it is helpful to some one. If not it has at least been helpful to me in helping me difine my path more and giving more of a direction. Feed back is welcome take or leave anything I have said.

I'm tired now whew! :collapse:

Ron

June 29th, 2004, 10:21 PM

So, once again, why don't Christians keep Kosher if they're supposed to follow the OT? Since you're obviously a Christian (or else why would you insist on defending the integrity of the religion from these evil sneaksy heathenses?), maybe you can tell us?

Firstly love, I am not a Christian. Unlike too many Wiccan fluff bunnies (I'm reffering to the Wiccans that are fluffy, NOT all Wiccans) I just don't have anything against them.

There are many Secular Christian groups. Very few of them do not have a set of ten commandments. Whether or not they are "supposed" to follow the Old Testament, all twenty-two (22) commandments (some will say that there are more than 40) come from it. The New Testament does command that to be a "good Christian" you are to uphold "your commandments". If we think about early North American colonial Christianity, and about the Salem Witch Trials, we will definately see that the Old Testament was as important as the New. Perhaps, over time some Christian groups have lost touch with Old Testament. I know A LOT of Jewish people that don't keep Kosher -- perhaps, Christians were too busy learning about Jesus Christ to try to keep Kosher, or wear mixed fabrics. The truth is that Christians aren't "supposed" to do anything. Some Christian Groups, for instance the Lutheran Church (I may be wrong by this, if I am, I hereby ask your forgiveness) preaches AGAINST homosexual acts, meanwhile they are bilnd to read only five lines above the anti-gay statements, to see that cannot eat shelfish -- this may be beacause they pick and choose from the Bible and decide what they want to believe and hence don't want to belive. However, returning to the Salem Witch Trials, clearly colonial Christianity doesn't advocate Witchcraft, but rather condemns it.

This "pick and choose" method of belief is one reason why i am no Christian. I'd prefer Islam, because not one word of the Koran can be questioned. I am happy with my religion, it employs teachings from the Bible beautifully, and points out, what I believe to be, miscommunications in the Bible, as well.

Goodness bless!

Ron

June 29th, 2004, 10:30 PM

The word here translated as witch is Kashaph, or more specifically one who uses power to bend or transform the will of another This is more specifically indicated one who uses sexual power, but we'll let that slide. Modern witches, please tell me, do you use your power to bend the will of another?

That's nice. But you see, in His Majesty the Past King James' Bible the word appears as "witch", which (lol) has other meanings. You may be right, but I really don't care. This is not way the word was interpreted during the Salem Witch Trials, was it now?

Morr

June 30th, 2004, 02:42 AM

i never said Christian-Wiccan!
theres a HUGE difference between Christo-Paganism and Christo-Wicca..

Christianity is a religion, much like the Acient Greeks, Celts, Romans, etc had their own religion.

If you worship and work with the Greek Pantheon of Gods - that doesnt mean that your religion is the acient greek religion in which these gods were part of. Same with the Celtic gods/Egyptian gods/Roman Gods, etc.

Why can't I be a nature worshiper, yet have a connection with Divine through the form of Jesus Christ, Mother Mary & the Father God. The fact that Christianity is based on Paganism in general makes in that easier to work with the Gods it worships, as a Pagan.

You cant tell a Pagan that they CANT work or worship or form a bond with a god/figure from the Christian Pantheon because its taken from a religion called Christianity. If so - You cant work with the Greek Pantheon because its taken from the Greek Religion. And since Paganism today is NOT what the Greek Religion was back then - You cant mix the two.

Just like theres a difference between Celtic Paganism and Celtic Reconstructionism. Why cant there be a difference between Christo-Paganism and Christianity.

As for mixing Christianity and WICCA - that it a much more difficult thing to do, since they are both religions with Do's & Dont's. Where as Paganism is a very general term that allows you to mold your spiritual path.

I personally am very connected to Jesus Christ, Mother Mary, Magdalene, God & even some of the Saints. And yes I have my own little bond with them and I find it very fulfilling. But that doesnt mean I'm a Christian. I dont follow the bible or take it literally - I simply view it as mythology & stories. I dont include the Church in any part of my belief simply because i dont need an institution between me & Divine.

But I'm still a Pagan.

Morr

June 30th, 2004, 02:44 AM

That's nice. But you see, in His Majesty the Past King James' Bible the word appears as "witch", which (lol) has other meanings. You may be right, but I really don't care. This is not way the word was interpreted during the Salem Witch Trials, was it now?

dont take the Salam Witch Trials personally... they didnt REALLY kill Pagans or witches... they killed Christians..

Morr

June 30th, 2004, 02:51 AM

This "pick and choose" method of belief is one reason why i am no Christian. I'd prefer Islam, because not one word of the Koran can be questioned. I am happy with my religion, it employs teachings from the Bible beautifully, and points out, what I believe to be, miscommunications in the Bible, as well.

Goodness bless!

im taking this entire convo to a whole different level...

Islam has no "pick and choose"...
Where is it in the Koran that promotes & tells Muslims to call a Holy War on anything and anyone that is not Islamic?
Al Quaeda is on a Holy War to ruin the Western World, the "Crusaders" & the "Zionists". What about the terror attacks & suicide bombings here in Israel, in Iraq and 9/11?

Where is that allowed in the Koran?

Dont tell me that only Christianity has its "pick & choose" - EVERY RELIGION has that simply because its human nature to do so.

mucgwyrt

June 30th, 2004, 04:11 AM

Guess what? the word here translated as witchcraft is the verb form of Kashaph, Kasheph. Hmmmm... So what does a person who tries to bend the will of others do? Hmmm.. they try to bend the will of others Again, how many witches here do that?

But surely you would be bending the will of others by doing withcraft, if you're a Christian - you would be bending the will of God every time you cast a spell - ? :huh:

Aine of the Fae

June 30th, 2004, 04:50 AM

But surely you would be bending the will of others by doing withcraft, if you're a Christian - you would be bending the will of God every time you cast a spell - ? :huh:

How can a mere human bend the will of God? God is all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent, omniscient... His Will CANNOT be bent. If it could? Well, then God simply isn't God and we don't have to worry about it.

I'm leaving this discussion now, because it's becoming a bit too personal.

HorseCrow

June 30th, 2004, 05:41 AM

mucgwyrt

June 30th, 2004, 05:42 AM

But paganism, by defention, is a non-christian religeon :huh:

HorseCrow

June 30th, 2004, 07:10 AM

I know *LOL*... glad to see I'm not the only one getting a bit confused on the subject here! :T

Erebus

June 30th, 2004, 07:52 AM

mucgwyrt

June 30th, 2004, 07:54 AM

Come on now Erebus, there's no need to get irate :(
"xmo0driinq" did ask for any feedback, and Charles is just offering his viewpoint.

Erebus

June 30th, 2004, 08:17 AM

I tend to get testy when someone insists a person I like either can't exist, must change what she calls herself to suit someone else, or is some sort of fluffy fraud who doesn't know what she's doing. :flamer:

:grrrrr:

mucgwyrt

June 30th, 2004, 09:02 AM

:rolleyes: I'm on a learning curve here too you know, I'm simply asking questions and making observations.

Erebus

June 30th, 2004, 09:05 AM

I'm talking to Charles, not you.

That's why I put "Charles" at the top of that post, after all.

Aine of the Fae

June 30th, 2004, 09:58 AM

:rolleyes: I'm on a learning curve here too you know, I'm simply asking questions and making observations.

We're all on learning curves, that's what life is about! However Charles has misused scripture from a religion he professes not to belong to. When it was pointed out how that scripture was misused, he said he didn't care a pointed to the King James Version, the most politically charged and grossly innaccurate interpretation of the Bible, as his reading, giving the attitude that "since that's how they interpreted it, that how it must be." He talks of how Christians 'traditionally' behaved. Well, maybe I should bring up the 'traditional' behavior of various Pagan cultural groups? Hmmm? Cannabalism, wars, mass prosecution of Christians during the early stages of the movement, child ritual sacrifice, degradation and rape of women on a massive scale. You know what? The Judeo-Christian ethic may have some problems, but for the time the OT was written, women were given a LOT more freedom than ANY culture had until that point. And if anyone throws the Celtic culture at me, consider that the Brehon laws weren't written until 1000+ years AFTER the OT. Yes, the laws are outdated and pointless in light of modern life. However, SOME Christians are trying to move forward WITH their faith and keep getting told that it's not right and it can't be changed.

I've been told in this thread that I can't exist. I used to be one of the people that said that. I simply did not understand how Christianity and Wicca could mix. Honestly I still have a hard time understanding how Christianity and Wicca can mix as they are two specific religions. Christianity and Witchcraft on the other hand? Well I guess that all depends on your definition of witchcraft and how much you've truly studied the Bible.

Guess what? I've studied the Bible. In fact I'm study for a Bachelor's degree in Religious Studies at a Christian Bible College!!! I HAVE to learn the true context and the correct translation of these scriptures, because I'm going to have HUGE papers I'm going to have to right.

So this isn't just some casual observation from some random passerby wanting to stir up trouble. I'm doing this on a daily basis and it hurts to be told I can't because somebody else 'doesn't see how it's possible' and another person WHO ISN'T EVEN CHRISTIAN is trying to use MY BIBLE against me. IF YOU DON'T PROFESS TO THE FAITH DO NOT USE IT'S HOLY TEXT TO DEFEND YOUR BELIEFS.

As I said, I have a hard time understanding how Christianity and Wicca can be mixed. Does that mean it cannot be done? No, I think it can be. Consider that in Jewish tradition there is a Goddess, although she is quite hidden. The Shekinah, who in modern Christianity is completely dismissed and ignored. However, as I said in a previous post, I know of one Christian WICCAN who views the Trinity as God the Father = the Lord, The Holy Spirit/Shekinah = The Lady, and Jesus = that union between male/female that is perfection and to which we should all strive.

Tobias

June 30th, 2004, 04:04 PM

People have been misunderstanding the Bible for many years, and trying to throw it back in the faces of Christians. I don't let it bother me, it just proves their ignorance. Personally I can't understand how Christians can claim to uphold the 10 Commandments, when the fourth one is to keep the Sabbath day holy. I guess it works though if you ignore all the other parts of the Old Testiment that explain what it means to keep the Sabbath, and change the day to Sunday...

Anyway Aine, I believe you exist! I think when you have an entire culture based on Christianity, it is only inevitable that when other religions begin to take over a part of this population, that you will have most of your members as Christio-_______ (whatever the new religion is).

How can anyone truly abandon their religion completely, and take on a new one? Did Christianity manage to do that when they converted Pagans in the first place?? HA!!!

Sometimes I get the impression that many Pagans feel that Christianity is an Anti-religious system. That all Christianity has ever done is to repress spirituality, and force people to conform to a belief system that has no spiritual path or virtue in it whatsoever.

???????

I truly feel sorry for anyone who grew up in that kind of Christianity. But I do imagine there are some churches out there that have nothing spiritual to offer. But not everyone encounters this.

I spent many years learning how to discern spirits, follow the leading of God, and many of the principles of what you all call "magick"; all in the local church. Who is going to tell me that I have to give all my training and experiences up just so I can learn what it is to be a witch? So many of the principles are the same, where does one end and the other begin? The only line of demarkation is the power of satan vs. the power of God, but that is an issue to argue on other sites with Christians who still believe it.

Theres

June 30th, 2004, 07:09 PM

... I know of one Christian WICCAN who views the Trinity as God the Father = the Lord, The Holy Spirit/Shekinah = The Lady, and Jesus = that union between male/female that is perfection and to which we should all strive.

how very convenient.
but if you can answer my question without getting all emotionally involved, this is Wicca how?

Morr

June 30th, 2004, 11:27 PM

how very convenient.
but if you can answer my question without getting all emotionally involved, this is Wicca how?

Well, the Christian Mythology isnt that far away from any other kind of mythology...
So many Gods in the Greek & Roman myths have come down and had a child with a human ladyand had half god/half human kids...

So -

Zeus + Lady (i forget her name) = Hercules.

Thetis + Guy (i forget his name) = Achiles.

God + Mother Mary = Jesus.

I think thats a Pagan aspect that cannot be ignored... Add the whole Sacrifice deal (Sun God being sacrificed for his people/land)... Inspiration... Healing... Magick... etc..
Just because the CAtholic Church has supressed the Female Side of the Christian Divinity, doesnt mean its not there. In fact, there are entire Christian Sects & Ministries devoted to the Divinity of both Mother Mary AND Mary Magdalene.

So there *IS* a Male/Female Polarity evident in Christianity - It depends how you look at it. Just like there are many faces to Wiccan - There are many faces to Christianity.

I dont agree with the fact that Shekhina plays a part in Christianity, I would definitly switch her with Mother Mary in this case... However, in the Jewish Lore I would place Shekhina along side and as part of Y-H-V-H. So there is definitly a Male/Female Polarity in Judaism as well.

Tobias

July 1st, 2004, 12:04 PM

Yeah, in all my years as a fundimentalist, I never encounterd anything about Shekhina being any form of possible diety. The Shekhina glory of God filled the temple when it was dedicated in the Old Testiment. That's the only time it's mentioned, to my knowlage.

Also I am completely unfamilliar with any form of Mary worship. Protestant Christianity has nothing to do with that.

However, having a more Fundimentalist veiw of God, I have had very little problem adapting it to one form of Wiccan view I came across. In the book "The Philosophy of Wicca", it is said that Wiccans believe in one supreme god/dess, who incorperates attributes of both genders, and who chooses to appear as and embody any of the other gods.

In the book of Genesis it sais, "In the image of God was man created, male and female He created them". The fundimental Christian view of God is not as strictly "male", as many suppose. Whole denominations of more liberal churches have adopted "Mother God" as an appropriate way to address God. The Fundimentalist oppose going that far, because they think it is more of an honor to adress God in the masculine. However, the Christian God is not strictly male, just like the Wiccan Goddess is not strictly female.

Morr

July 1st, 2004, 01:57 PM

in the Jewish Lore, Shekhina is the Female part/counterpart of Y-H-V-H, and through her the "Congregation of Israel" ("Kenneset Israel" - In Hebrew) join Y-H-V-H in the "Holy Marriage" of union. Shekhina is known as the Mother if Israel - Caring & Loving & Comforting, as Y-H-V-H is known as Father of Israel - Jealous, Angry & Merciful.

I've seen this concept in mainly Jewish Mystical & Kabbalah cults/schools/practionares. Not in Christian ones.

the Fundies of both religions like to supress Shekhina very much. She is often compared to be the "Jewish Holy Spirit"...

Ron

July 1st, 2004, 11:36 PM

Charles:

So your entire argument is an Appeal to Common Practice? "If a whole bunch of people do it, that must be the way it's supposed to be done", yes? Especially in reference to your "salem witch trial" statement...

Why are you so violently opposed to the idea that someone could believe Christ was the son of god and still cast spells? Especially considering there are quite a few well-established religions that do such (Louisiana Hoodoo and Irish Catholic being a couple of (probably arguable) examples)?
Not at all opposed to the idea. Just that the bible clearly states that Witchcraft is a nono. Really, I'm just trying to communicate the way the bible doesn't advocate Witchcraft. I for one, am a clear believer in Jesus and the teachings of the bible. I just don't agree with much of the bible though -- I am polytheisitic. I don't even read it. Those quotes I just found at christnotes.org by searching for Witchcraft in King James' Version of the Bible. When I saw this thread, I thought them relevant. I mean, if you are to believe in a religion you should probably agree with what it was founded upon? no? for a buildings only stand tall because they have a strong foundation.

However, I do not believe Christ was the son of any god, for I believe that Christ was an incarnation of Chrys, a god in his own right.

blesss ye

Ron

July 1st, 2004, 11:46 PM

We're all on learning curves, that's what life is about! However Charles has misused scripture from a religion he professes not to belong to. When it was pointed out how that scripture was misused, he said he didn't care a pointed to the King James Version, the most politically charged and grossly innaccurate interpretation of the Bible, as his reading, giving the attitude that "since that's how they interpreted it, that how it must be." He talks of how Christians 'traditionally' behaved. Well, maybe I should bring up the 'traditional' behavior of various Pagan cultural groups? Hmmm? Cannabalism, wars, mass prosecution of Christians during the early stages of the movement, child ritual sacrifice, degradation and rape of women on a massive scale. You know what? The Judeo-Christian ethic may have some problems, but for the time the OT was written, women were given a LOT more freedom than ANY culture had until that point. And if anyone throws the Celtic culture at me, consider that the Brehon laws weren't written until 1000+ years AFTER the OT. Yes, the laws are outdated and pointless in light of modern life. However, SOME Christians are trying to move forward WITH their faith and keep getting told that it's not right and it can't be changed.

I've been told in this thread that I can't exist. I used to be one of the people that said that. I simply did not understand how Christianity and Wicca could mix. Honestly I still have a hard time understanding how Christianity and Wicca can mix as they are two specific religions. Christianity and Witchcraft on the other hand? Well I guess that all depends on your definition of witchcraft and how much you've truly studied the Bible.

Guess what? I've studied the Bible. In fact I'm study for a Bachelor's degree in Religious Studies at a Christian Bible College!!! I HAVE to learn the true context and the correct translation of these scriptures, because I'm going to have HUGE papers I'm going to have to right.

So this isn't just some casual observation from some random passerby wanting to stir up trouble. I'm doing this on a daily basis and it hurts to be told I can't because somebody else 'doesn't see how it's possible' and another person WHO ISN'T EVEN CHRISTIAN is trying to use MY BIBLE against me. IF YOU DON'T PROFESS TO THE FAITH DO NOT USE IT'S HOLY TEXT TO DEFEND YOUR BELIEFS.

As I said, I have a hard time understanding how Christianity and Wicca can be mixed. Does that mean it cannot be done? No, I think it can be. Consider that in Jewish tradition there is a Goddess, although she is quite hidden. The Shekinah, who in modern Christianity is completely dismissed and ignored. However, as I said in a previous post, I know of one Christian WICCAN who views the Trinity as God the Father = the Lord, The Holy Spirit/Shekinah = The Lady, and Jesus = that union between male/female that is perfection and to which we should all strive.

Hello there.

So when is your persecution of me going to begin? Please confirm in writing to me, when it does -- for I'm excited to see how it truns out. I'm sorry you hate me, and for your hate I pity you, bless.

I don't see anything wrong with the traditional ways Pagan groups "behaved". I don't see anything wrong with the traditional ways Christian groups "behaved". :bumpsmili

One can learn from intrepetation.

To call KJV of the Bible as "the most politically charged and grossly innaccurate interpretation of the Bible" is like saying "Charles is God", it simply cannot be. KJV of the Bible was hardly different from any other version. They differ only in grammar and a line sowed out here, a line patched in there. :woah:

:uzi: Aine! lol :) jk

Erebus

July 12th, 2004, 07:23 AM

Just that the bible clearly states that Witchcraft is a nono.

Except that you seem to be making it a hobby to COMPLETELY IGNORE all the more accurate translations in favor of the one that Jerry Falwell uses to blame 9/11 on the pagans and the feminists.

Here's an idea: How about you study the Bible before trying to tell everyone what it says? And by "study" I don't mean "memorize a couple of catchphrase verses from the KJV and ignore everything else".

FaeryChild

July 25th, 2004, 04:28 AM

Ok, either I'm getting confused or this thread is going slightly twisty. The original start of this thread was on Christian Wicca, right? Not Christian Paganism? Because I just don't see Christianity and Wicca mixing, but Paganism and Christianity, to me, is different...

I thoroughly agree. Also I keep seeing people argue about the existence of Christian Witchcraft. Witchcraft does not equal Wicca (one being a religion and one being a way of life/practice) as I think a couple of people have pointed out already. As this discussion is about the existence of Christian Wicca, I think arguing over whether someone can be a Christian Witch or not is straying a bit from the original/designated topic (just my opinion, I could be wrong).

Valentinius

July 25th, 2004, 06:54 AM

Remembering this is my personal opinion: I think one of these was specifically designed to be the polar opposite of the other. So we really shouldn't try to force a synthesis.

I know I'me a bit late on all this but if wicca were designed to be a polar opposite to christianity, would that make it's revealer "gardener" the anti christ along with his followers.

That sure is not really my point of view

Holly Ariadna

July 25th, 2004, 08:55 AM

Some people may have a bit of a time with Christian Wiccans, because for the most part the religions are mutually exclusive (I said for the most part...) However, that being said, I'm a Christian Witch (there I said it, ok?) and while it is certainly not an easy path to follow, I find it to be the most rewarding path for me at this point in my spiritual journey.

It really all depends on what you believe about the Bible, about God and about Jesus. If you believe the Bible to be the infallible, literal word of God, perfectly preserved through generations of oral telling and then further generations of transcription, interpretation and church modification (yes, I said church modification, as the church has removed several books of the Bible as recently as 200-300 years ago!), if you believe that after all of that, the Bible is still perfect? Well, you probably shouldn't be at this forum because the demons might get you (kidding!!!!) If you believe all of that, then Christianity and Witchcraft cannot be blended for that would be apostasy of the worst kind, that would be turning your back on Christ, the Church and God and embracing Satan (just because I said it, doesn't mean I believe it.)

However, if you believe that the Bible, while inspired by God, is not meant to be taken literally and has been polluted by the egotism of mankind, then Christianity and Witchcraft can be blended quite easily. For instance, many of the phrases and scriptures used to condemn Witchcraft are misquotes and misinterpretations. A word often translated as Witch (for instance 'thou shalt not suffer a Kasheph to live' is translated as 'thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live') Kasheph, when used elsewhere in the Old Testament, indicates a sort of Spiritual Rape, or a person using their sexuality/sexual magic to bend the will of another. This is something many modern Witches would never, ever participate in, and taken in context and translated properly, you can understand why this is something that would be condemned.

Ok, I'm rambling, somebody tell me to shut up now.

I'm a bit late, but I agree with that post to 100%, so DON'T shut up cuz then I'll have to write my opinion instead of you. :D (LOL so lazy)

There are Christians who believe that unless you believe in everything the Bible says, you're not Christian. There are also Wiccans who believe that unless you were initiated by someone who was initiated by Gerald Gardner, you're not Wiccan. However, there are many Christians (like me) who read the Bible and think about its meanings WITHOUT taking it literally, and many Wiccans who are solitary and perfectly satisfied with that.
This being said, it is not fair to judge an entire religion based on those extremists. I am Catholic and consider myself very religious, but I do NOT take the Bible literally. If someone told me "you're not Catholic" I'd be REALLY angry because IMO they have no right to tell me what I am, and besides, if I did take the Bible literally, I'd be dead right now.

So, it's not impossible to mix Christianity and Wicca, unless you're an extremist, which most people are not. I have some Pagan beliefs but I consider myself Catholic. I talk to a priest regularly, and he knows I'm a Witch. His reaction to that was "But you don't use magick to do bad things, do you?" and I said "No, it's a way for me of connecting with God" and he was perfectly fine with that. Things like that really depend on how much you take literally, how much of an extremist you are, and who you are as a person.

Tobias

July 25th, 2004, 11:27 AM

I know I'me a bit late on all this but if wicca were designed to be a polar opposite to christianity, would that make it's revealer "gardener" the anti christ along with his followers.

That sure is not really my point of view

Interesting...

If you call a Wiccan a "Devil Worshiper" they will tell you they don't believe in any "devil" and point you to the Satanists.

If you call a Satanist a "Devil Worshiper", they will tell you the same thing and explain to you that the only "Devil Worshipers" are misguided Christians, because only Christians believe in the Devil.

Who makes these rules anyway? How can someone who worships the Devil be a Christian, but someone who incorperates any amount of Wicca or Witchcraft into their Christianity suddenly has to drop their "Christian" label?

Aine of the Fae

July 25th, 2004, 11:42 AM

Hello there.

So when is your persecution of me going to begin? Please confirm in writing to me, when it does -- for I'm excited to see how it truns out. I'm sorry you hate me, and for your hate I pity you, bless.

I don't see anything wrong with the traditional ways Pagan groups "behaved". I don't see anything wrong with the traditional ways Christian groups "behaved". :bumpsmili

One can learn from intrepetation.

To call KJV of the Bible as "the most politically charged and grossly innaccurate interpretation of the Bible" is like saying "Charles is God", it simply cannot be. KJV of the Bible was hardly different from any other version. They differ only in grammar and a line sowed out here, a line patched in there. :woah:

:uzi: Aine! lol :) jk

There are a lot more differences in versions of the Bible than just "grammar and a line sowed out her, a line patched in there." A LOT more. The King James Version of the Bible was politically charged, commissioned by James, who had an intense fear and hatred of witches, or anyone who might be considered a witch.

You don't see anything wrong with the way traditional Pagan groups behaved? So cannibalism, rape, mass execution, child abuse and pedophilia are okay with you?

You don't see anything wrong with the way traditional Christian groups behaved? So it's okay to accuse my neighbor of witchcraft, tie them to the stake and burn them, simply because I want their property? Who cares if they are a devout Christian? Who cares if they never actually did anything. I want their stuff so they're a witch. That's ok with you?

Every time I have ever seen you post you have done nothing but mock and degrade those you are responding to. If you want respect show some, I certainly haven't ever seen any from you.

Shanti

July 25th, 2004, 12:42 PM

Lables, titles and what not. Lables are man created. Why cant people be allowed to just follow their own heart?

Bran83

July 25th, 2004, 10:52 PM

being sort of new to paganism, ive looked up several paths i felt drawn to,when i was doing my search, i came along a site for christian wicca? does anyone think this is a real path, or do you find it offensive? any feedback would be appreciated! :broomride
No, its not. Its a joke. And they can say up and down the well that I am close minded and ignorant, but the fact of the matter is I am realistic and I know who I am and dont need to bomabared myself with twenty different titles to establish that. If you ask any real life pagans about this they will laugh and go are you serious. Then they will say its ridiculous and then they will say yeah it can be combined because after the Catholics slashed and BURNED hundreds of thousands of pagans, we converted but kept certain traditions which became christian. Does it mean it should be.....no.

And the fact that christians dont accept gays and are pretty hard press about accepting certain other denominations of their own faith might clue you in that oil and water dont mix. And if you believe in the devil (which christians do by accordance of the church and bible, which makes them christian) then how can you practice magic when the church (which you follow if you are christian) says its the work of the devil and then how do you claim that you wiccan. It makes no sense.

FaeryChild

July 25th, 2004, 11:14 PM

A point similar to my earlier point...

The words "The Church," which are normally short for "The Catholic Church" (please correct me if I'm wrong), have been thrown around a lot during this conversation and I think it should be remember that just like there are quite a few pagan traditions there are also quite a few Christian denominations. Just because the Catholic Church condemns something doesn't mean every Christian denomination condemns it. For example a Methodist church near me just ordained a gay bishop not to long ago something that the Catholic church would probably say is about as close to heresy as one can come these days.

I know I'm being picky (and really am not adding much to the debate) and should probably just shut up...oh well my two cents ^_^

Bran83

July 25th, 2004, 11:19 PM

FaeryChild

July 25th, 2004, 11:31 PM

Did I put catholic in front of it....
No no. It wasn't my intention to pick on you specifically. I just meant throughout the entire debate. Your post just happened to have the word "church" in it which reminded me of the constant use of the word.

Tobias

July 26th, 2004, 12:18 AM

So I suppose these Methodists are not Christians in Bran83's book. Nor would be the whole Presbyterian denomination; they don't condemn gays either. In fact, they even go so far as to accept "Mother God" as a possible alternative way to address their Diety.

It seems that to be considered a true Christian by some Pagan's standards, you have to believe in burning witches and forced conversions at swordpoint...

MorningDove030202

July 26th, 2004, 07:16 AM

http://christianwicca.meetup.com/

Maybe you all have heard of this already, but I thought I aught to post it for you!

Enjoy!

Dove

Semele

July 26th, 2004, 08:53 AM

Ben Trismegistus

July 26th, 2004, 09:05 AM

Aine of the Fae

July 26th, 2004, 11:03 AM

No, its not. Its a joke. And they can say up and down the well that I am close minded and ignorant, but the fact of the matter is I am realistic and I know who I am and dont need to bomabared myself with twenty different titles to establish that. If you ask any real life pagans about this they will laugh and go are you serious. Then they will say its ridiculous and then they will say yeah it can be combined because after the Catholics slashed and BURNED hundreds of thousands of pagans, we converted but kept certain traditions which became christian. Does it mean it should be.....no.

And the fact that christians dont accept gays and are pretty hard press about accepting certain other denominations of their own faith might clue you in that oil and water dont mix. And if you believe in the devil (which christians do by accordance of the church and bible, which makes them christian) then how can you practice magic when the church (which you follow if you are christian) says its the work of the devil and then how do you claim that you wiccan. It makes no sense.

I've really, really been fighting the urge to respond to this... but I just can't help myself....

First off I don't bombard myself with twenty different titles to establish who I am. I use two words to describe the spiritual path that I am following. If I didn't sum it up in those two words it would look something like this:

Eclectic, charismatic, neo-gnostic, solitary Christian mystic or something along those lines. It changes every week or so as I learn more about who I am. However it always remains Christian and personal.

Secondly, Catholics did not BURN hundreds of thousands of pagans. A good majority of those "burned" were Christians whose neighbors or churches didn't like them or wanted their property. There was very, very little resistance to conversion because they saw familiarity in the Christian path and they were allowed to incorporate previous beliefs. In fact it wasn't until LONG after the mass conversions that the Inquisition began.

Secondly, while some Christians don't accept gays, many do. The Episcopalian church sent shockwaves through the church communities when they named a gay priest to the office of Bishop. Other churches don't have much problem with it.

It is NOT a belief in the devil that makes a person Christian, nor is following the Bible. What makes a person a Christian is professing faith in Jesus the Christ as Savior. I have and therefore I am a Christian.

Christian Wicca is a form of Wicca that believes in the God of the Bible, but also believes that the Bible doesn't have it right. Christian Wiccans believe in a Goddess as well, some expressing her as Mary, Jesus mother, and others expressing her as the Shekinah or the Holy Spirit. The feminine in the divine has been lost in the English translations. Look at my sig. See that "Father-Mother of the Cosmos" Sounds fairly Pagan huh? It's a re-translation of the Lord's Prayer directly from the Aramaic, where the word generally translated as Father (Abba) has connotations of being sexless, both male and female, but at the same time neither one.

If you are basing your idea the Christianity and Wicca/Witchcraft are incompatible on English translation, then you are basing your idea on faulty ideas of the Bible. English is a crude language and much of the nuance, much of the meaning is lost.

If you take the Bible 100% literally then no, you cannot be a Christian Witch or a Christian Wiccan. But realize that only a relative minority of Christian take the Bible absolutely literally. Catholics don't, neither do United Methodists and several other denominations. Unitarions and Creation Spiritualists certainly don't, believing that we were all created good, we are all blessed, however society has beaten that out of us. In fact, Matthew Fox, the founder of Creation Spirituality, once had a very prominent witch on his staff. You may have heard of her. Starhawk. He was a Catholic Priest and was booted out for his association with Starhawk, however he still considers himself Christian, a post-denominational priest, as he calls it.

Not all Christians believe the same thing. Take Original Sin. I just found out that the Orthodox Church believes Original Sin is a joke! Yeah, that very same church that was the first split when the Universal Catholic Church divided to become the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic. The Orthodox church believes that ALL are born pure and free from sin and that it is the state of the world that taints us.

It is the Pentacostal and Fundamentalist churches that emphasize the Devil and his minions. Many other churches (my minister at the United Methodist church is one of them) believe that the devil is not a real entity but symbolizes the negative side of the human psyche, the side that we must overcome to attain union with the divine.

And the Christian idea of the devil is warped and twisted. The Devil, according to the Jewish view, is just doing his job as testing humanity. He tempts us to test our faith in God. And it's a job that God gave him. Even in the temptation of Jesus in the desert you can see that. It was further twisting of Christian scripture that twisted his role.

Just because you don't see how a person can be Christian and Wiccan at the same time does not make their path a joke.

MorningDove030202

July 26th, 2004, 11:19 AM

IMHO,
My only issue with Christian Wicca, is that I don't feel Wiccan's should feel the need to be "Saved" because well, there is no hell. And if you arn't "saved" then under my understanding of Christianity, you arn't a Christian. That said I feel that "Pagan for Jesus" or "Wiccan for Jesus" is just fine. Jesus had a lot of good things to say, and I don't think we should ignore him because he's montheistic. I also feel that ultimately it's not my place to define other people's lables, so call yourself what you like.

Dove

Bran83

July 26th, 2004, 11:21 AM

Oh come on Bran, don't be silly. Regardless of your personal feelings about the Catholic Church, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Catholics "burned hundreds of thousands of pagans". It's that sort of ridiculous hyperbole that caused the community at large to think of pagans as flaky morons.

Actually no there is. And I didnt say catholic.

If you look into the early begginings of the church around the rule of Constantine early christian groups would gang up on pagans and either knife them or burn them. And if you look at any book that details that time period you will see. Plus there is hundreds of years of history after that. People who were claimed to be witches or heretics burned, crusades, so on and so forth. They were labeled as heretics and witches (and yes that part is predominantly catholic, but it doesnt matter, cause a christian is a christian). So this is as to why I find it so funny and an oxymoron that people want to label themselves as both.

And also I dont understand as to why Semele threw up the admin mode at me and why mol hit me with bad karma when the person asked what my thoughts were on the wiccan christain thing. I didn not incite violence against any group, nor did make racist or bigoted slurs. There is such a thing as freedom and speech and if that is restricted here then yall can make yourselves feel that more special and ban me because thats just pathetic to think that any one is outside the basic human rights. I gave my opinion in a well mannered way. Not saying i approached it scholarly but I wasnt just saying its stupid with out a reason. If you didnt like how i state it you should have done what Ben did and questioned it, but the person asked for my opinion and i gave it. And if you asked many people (most of who would make you feel like toddlers), they will say the same thing. And you know what that is there opinion. And both sides are entitled to that, doenst necissarily mean you have to agree with it, but it doesnt mean you should walk on egg shells for them either.

Morr

July 26th, 2004, 11:22 AM

i personally accept the concept of Christian Witches or Christian Mystics, etc..
but I cannot accept the concept of Christian Wicca.

These are two seperate and totally opposite RELIGIONS... while Witchcraft is not a religion, its a spiritual path which CAN be combined with a diff religion (wether its christianity, judaism, etc)...

but the dogmas of both Wicca & Christianity clash, and in my opinion, cant work together.

Brinclhof

July 26th, 2004, 11:41 AM

They were labeled as heretics and witches (and yes that part is predominantly catholic, but it doesnt matter, cause a christian is a christian).

A christian is a christian???? that just shows how little you understand christianity. There are drastic differences in the beliefs of one christian and the next. Even within the same denomination you are going to find differences in beleifs. Why would there be so many different christian denominations if a Christian is a Christian. That is like saying that a Muslim is a Muslim and since one Muslim performs a terrorist act then all Muslims perform terrorist acts.

Morr

July 26th, 2004, 12:17 PM

Actually no there is. And I didnt say catholic.
If you look into the early begginings of the church around the rule of Constantine early christian groups would gang up on pagans and either knife them or burn them. And if you look at any book that details that time period you will see. Plus there is hundreds of years of history after that. People who were claimed to be witches or heretics burned, crusades, so on and so forth. They were labeled as heretics and witches (and yes that part is predominantly catholic, but it doesnt matter, cause a christian is a christian). So this is as to why I find it so funny and an oxymoron that people want to label themselves as both.

Constantine just made Christianity legitamate within the Empire. and he allowed the Nicean Council to happen out of pure political considerations only. No revelations... No cross in the sky... Nada. In fact, what Constantine & his army saw in the skies that day of the battle was actually a meteor passing by earth REAL close (scientists manged to prove that, which is kinda neat in my opinion)..

You also have to remember, Christianity didnt happen over night.. at Constantine's time, the church didnt have much power at all.. most of the empire was still pagan. The Caesar's soldiers were still pagan! They didnt have TVs & radios & planes & phones & internet that could spread the new religious orders from the Caesar down to the last citizen of the Empire within 24 hours.. much less supervise over it actually being done as the Caesar ordered..

As for witches & heretics... most were actually Christians falsely accused, Heretics were burned but I think there was only ONE serious case - The Cathars, who actually WILLINGLY went into the fire (because it involves their beliefs), on June 24th, 1209.
The Church most definitly did NOT burn and kill hundred of thousends heretics and witches.

Also, its the Pagans who prosecuted and killed many Christians and Jews while the Roman & Greek Religion were the powerful religions. It goes both ways. You cant say that one is wrong and the other is right when both religions are responsible for prosecution, violence and hate for the same reasons.

Phoenix Snowrose

July 26th, 2004, 12:22 PM

While it is not my path, I do believe it is real. I have a witches meetup every other week and there are several Christian Wiccans.. They are just as valid.. and as long as they don't put my path down, I have no problems talking honestly about theirs.

I totally agrre with this statement 100%. It's this kind of tolerant attitude that more people need. :hugz:

Shanti

July 26th, 2004, 12:32 PM

Doesnt christian just mean someone who believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings which are all in the new testiment? And his teaching have differant meaning to differant people.
So if you believe in Jesus and his teachings and you also are a witch, than you are a christian witch if you want to be, so........what on earth is the problem?

And you can replace witch with the word wicca to get the same meaning of the consept. God, in the ten commandments said. "Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE me. That can be meant as ABOVE me. So there you can believe in other gods as long as you acknowledge the one! No problem.

I find it a concept quite easy to grasp.

Aine of the Fae

July 26th, 2004, 12:35 PM

Constantine just made Christianity legitamate within the Empire. and he allowed the Nicean Council to happen out of pure political considerations only. No revelations... No cross in the sky... Nada. In fact, what Constantine & his army saw in the skies that day of the battle was actually a meteor passing by earth REAL close (scientists manged to prove that, which is kinda neat in my opinion)..

You also have to remember, Christianity didnt happen over night.. at Constantine's time, the church didnt have much power at all.. most of the empire was still pagan. The Caesar's soldiers were still pagan! They didnt have TVs & radios & planes & phones & internet that could spread the new religious orders from the Caesar down to the last citizen of the Empire within 24 hours.. much less supervise over it actually being done as the Caesar ordered..

As for witches & heretics... most were actually Christians falsely accused, Heretics were burned but I think there was only ONE serious case - The Cathars, who actually WILLINGLY went into the fire (because it involves their beliefs), on June 24th, 1209.
The Church most definitly did NOT burn and kill hundred of thousends heretics and witches.

Also, its the Pagans who prosecuted and killed many Christians and Jews while the Roman & Greek Religion were the powerful religions. It goes both ways. You cant say that one is wrong and the other is right when both religions are responsible for prosecution, violence and hate for the same reasons.

Durnnit Morr, ya beat me to it :lol:

There are literally thousands of Christian martyrs, especially in the early church. All but one of the Apostles was martyred (two if you don't count Judas' suicide.) Thousands of the earliest Christians were killed. ANYONE, no matter what religion, anyone who firmly stands for their beliefs has a chance of being martyred when their beliefs are in the minority.

As Morr said, Constantine's profession of Christianity was purely political. And he didn't "force" the people to become Christian. A great number of them were Christian beforehand and had been persecuted for it.

And I have to agree with most of the statements about Christian Wicca. It's very difficult because they are two different religions. They have a lot in common but the differences are VERY different. However, if someone is really willing to work at it? Who am I or anyone else to say they can't?

mol

July 26th, 2004, 01:54 PM

And also I dont understand as to why Semele threw up the admin mode at me and why mol hit me with bad karma when the person asked what my thoughts were on the wiccan christain thing.An excerpt from our rules and guidelines:

The admins do not have to warn you as it is your responsibility to read and follow the rules of this Community. Also, please do not reply to moderations in the thread. We have to post moderations so that everyone knows we have looked into the matter and weighed it against the rules. Discussing why we do what we do in a thread just causes the thread to be derailed. Since I am not in admin mode, I will continue. An earlier quote from you regarding the Christian Wiccan Path:

No, its not. Its a joke. And they can say up and down the well that I am close minded and ignorant... And here is another excerpt from our rules and guidelines. Important stuff in bold.

No bashing of other religions or personal Paths is allowed in this community. Discussion of Paths is allowed and disagreement is also allowed but the act of telling someone a Path is "invalid or wrong" (for example) is not allowed.
Now, if you want to say anything further regarding moderation then please direct it to an admin via private message. Of course, if you think that this simple rule violates your freedom of speech then I would encourage you to look elsewhere for community. This community values free speech, but it values a persons right to choose their Path even more.

Edited to add: Also, I am perfectly aware that the question was asked...'do you think the Path is valid?' You were not moderated for answering the question. You were moderated for calling it (the Path in question) a joke.

Bran83

July 26th, 2004, 02:22 PM

Constantine just made Christianity legitamate within the Empire. and he allowed the Nicean Council to happen out of pure political considerations only. No revelations... No cross in the sky... Nada. In fact, what Constantine & his army saw in the skies that day of the battle was actually a meteor passing by earth REAL close (scientists manged to prove that, which is kinda neat in my opinion)..

You also have to remember, Christianity didnt happen over night.. at Constantine's time, the church didnt have much power at all.. most of the empire was still pagan. The Caesar's soldiers were still pagan! They didnt have TVs & radios & planes & phones & internet that could spread the new religious orders from the Caesar down to the last citizen of the Empire within 24 hours.. much less supervise over it actually being done as the Caesar ordered..

As for witches & heretics... most were actually Christians falsely accused, Heretics were burned but I think there was only ONE serious case - The Cathars, who actually WILLINGLY went into the fire (because it involves their beliefs), on June 24th, 1209.
The Church most definitly did NOT burn and kill hundred of thousends heretics and witches.

Also, its the Pagans who prosecuted and killed many Christians and Jews while the Roman & Greek Religion were the powerful religions. It goes both ways. You cant say that one is wrong and the other is right when both religions are responsible for prosecution, violence and hate for the same reasons.

Yes and he did that because in the east you had monothestic religions, including the growing christian cult, and you had the pagans of the west. So in order to balance the two he made christianity a legitamate religion. He never said, until his death bed, that he was a christian. His father was a member of the Mithros cult and his mother a christian. And the Mithros cult had the one sun deity that they worshiped. And the christians ad the one god that they worshiped. There were stories of god being revealed to him and then their were coins with his image and the saying, "Son of Mithros".... but al in all it kept both sides happy by not saying which he believed in.

The christian cult members would kill and burn people. They would get mobs gathered. ANd I read this in one book and thought it was an exageration, but then i saw it in a couple of others and went oh. And yes pagans did the same to christians, but not to the extent christians did it. The only times that christians were persecuted where when Nero had to have a scape goat and the vikings saw monastaries as easy prey.

What I was trying to say was that witches were seen as evil and as such where burned at the stake. So how can you say that you are Christian and wiccan.....makes no sense. But the botttom line is that the guidlines and regulations one takes up as a christian are not the same as those of a Wiccan.

Bran83

July 26th, 2004, 02:26 PM

An excerpt from our rules and guidelines:

Since I am not in admin mode, I will continue. An earlier quote from you regarding the Christian Wiccan Path:

And here is another excerpt from our rules and guidelines. Important stuff in bold.

Now, if you want to say anything further regarding moderation then please direct it to an admin via private message. Of course, if you think that this simple rule violates your freedom of speech then I would encourage you to look elsewhere for community. This community values free speech, but it values a persons right to choose their Path even more.

Edited to add: Also, I am perfectly aware that the question was asked...'do you think the Path is valid?' You were not moderated for answering the question. You were moderated for calling it (the Path in question) a joke.

YOu know what I already have...its called freinds and a real community.

Phoenix Blue

July 26th, 2004, 02:30 PM

:rolleyes: Then for gods' sake, go out and enjoy it. Arguing publicly with any admin is a long walk off a short cliff.

mol

July 26th, 2004, 02:32 PM

YOu know what I already have...its called freinds and a real community.
We are all really real here. :)

mol

July 26th, 2004, 02:32 PM

:rolleyes: Then for gods' sake, go out and enjoy it. Arguing publicly with any admin is a long walk off a short cliff.
LMAO. My new sig.

Morr

July 26th, 2004, 02:44 PM

Yes and he did that because in the east you had monothestic religions, including the growing christian cult, and you had the pagans of the west. So in order to balance the two he made christianity a legitamate religion. He never said, until his death bed, that he was a christian. His father was a member of the Mithros cult and his mother a christian. And the Mithros cult had the one sun deity that they worshiped. And the christians ad the one god that they worshiped. There were stories of god being revealed to him and then their were coins with his image and the saying, "Son of Mithros".... but al in all it kept both sides happy by not saying which he believed in.

The christian cult members would kill and burn people. They would get mobs gathered. ANd I read this in one book and thought it was an exageration, but then i saw it in a couple of others and went oh. And yes pagans did the same to christians, but not to the extent christians did it. The only times that christians were persecuted where when Nero had to have a scape goat and the vikings saw monastaries as easy prey.

What I was trying to say was that witches were seen as evil and as such where burned at the stake. So how can you say that you are Christian and wiccan.....makes no sense. But the botttom line is that the guidlines and regulations one takes up as a christian are not the same as those of a Wiccan.

in what book did you read that christians of the very early church ever burned or killed pagans? they had absolutely NO such power even after the death of Constantine.. there was a much larger Pagan community in the Western Empire. In 492ad (I'm PRETTY sure... I might be off by a few years though) Emparor Theodosius was the one who made Christianity the ONE & ONLY religion of the Empire, and THEN the Church started gaining power since it had the full backing of the Emparor... Then in 498ad, when Clovis converted from Arian Christianity to Catholicism, he got the Church's support - and in return, as he conquered pretty much all of Western Europe - only then were the citizens of these areas forced to become Catholic. And even then, the Church didnt REALLY have a lot of power till at least 200 years later. The Crusades & Inquisitions started much later, in the dark ages. And this is the time when witch hunts & heretic hunts became "popular".

and PS - the Christians were also prosecuted by the Jews themselves since they viewed them as a stray away Jewish cult who didnt keep the Jewish laws & traditions.

I still dont get why you are so ANTI Christians.. We did it to them.. They did it to us... Someone else prosecuted a different person for religious beliefs...

But you know what? If someone is happy with their beliefs and finds spiritual fullfilment with a cross between Witchcraft/Wicca and Christianity - Who are you to tell them its not valid or a joke? If this makes them a better person, why prevent it from them?