Christian Witchcraft, Christo~Paganism, Christian Wicca, Gnostic Christianity

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, quite a bit of controversy and heated discussion has been going on about blending Christianity and Pagan paths so I'm going to be adding links and info here as I come across them. Now, mind you, I work online so I will be finding a LOT of stuff!

The Christian Witchery Page - http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/index.html - A LOT of good info about Christian Witchcraft, including articles on the Bible and various beliefs as well as a series of lessons for those interested in the path of Christian Witchcraft.

Christian Mystics - http://www.christianmystics.com/index.shtml - Not Christian Witchcraft per se, but a good introduction to non-fundamentalist Christianity.

Church of the Christ Path - http://www.christpath.org/index.shtml - The church associated with the previous site.

Goddess Aware Christian Women - http://groups.msn.com/GoddessAwareChristianWomen/home.msnw - An MSN group of women who acknowledge and embrace the Goddess within Christian tradition.

The Gnostic Church of St. Mary Magdelene - http://magdalene.wise1.com/ - Just what it says, a Gnostic church.

The Essene Nazorean Church of Mount Carmel - http://www.essene.com - An alternative view of early Christianity.

Order of Nazorean Essenes - http://www.essenes.net - Similar to the previous, although different in many ways. This is described as a Buddhist branch of Christianity with a heavy emphasis on the monastic lifestyle, although lay persons are welcome as well.

Ok, I think that's enough to get your brains stirring for a bit. Comments?

[Morr]

thank you for the awesome sites :)
:hugz:

[Brinclhof]

Thank you Aine of the Fae for the sights. I have been looking for sights were I can find more information on my path to help me in my exploration.

Would anyone object to using this thread as a method of discussioning these different methods of worship, by sharing notes, spells, rituals, etc.? That is something else I feel I need.

[Mab]

YAY!!! Excellent, Aine!!

[Aine of the Fae]

Thank you Aine of the Fae for the sights. I have been looking for sights were I can find more information on my path to help me in my exploration.

Would anyone object to using this thread as a method of discussioning these different methods of worship, by sharing notes, spells, rituals, etc.? That is something else I feel I need.

I think that is an excellent idea Brinclhof! It seems there are many of us here who have an affinity to this path, either through interest in it or through fully practicing it!

[Morr]

i agree :)

[Faeawyn]

Wooo Hoooo a thread for me :hehehehe: Thanks Aine...:yourock:

[Aine of the Fae]

Wooo Hoooo a thread for me :hehehehe: Thanks Aine...:yourock:


Glad to oblige :D

[Brinclhof]

Ok then I have a question now that I have a forum to ask it in? :dancy: :fpraiseyo I am working on associating the Holy trinity with the four elements Earth Air Fire and Water. I did this some what in my altar blessing ritual that I performed during the last full moon. My problem comes in my associations. The only element that to me is set is fire with the HOly spirit. In my ritual Jehovah was earth and water, and Jesus was air. I tend to want to associate Jesus with earth more since he was on earth? But Jehovah created the earth, Jesus was baptized with water...etc.

Is anyone else trying to make these associations and if so do your associations change or are they pretty much fixed. If so what elements to each of the 3 in the trinity represent?

Help please.:fpraiseyo

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok then I have a question now that I have a forum to ask it in? :dancy: :fpraiseyo I am working on associating the Holy trinity with the four elements Earth Air Fire and Water. I did this some what in my altar blessing ritual that I performed during the last full moon. My problem comes in my associations. The only element that to me is set is fire with the HOly spirit. In my ritual Jehovah was earth and water, and Jesus was air. I tend to want to associate Jesus with earth more since he was on earth? But Jehovah created the earth, Jesus was baptized with water...etc.

Is anyone else trying to make these associations and if so do your associations change or are they pretty much fixed. If so what elements to each of the 3 in the trinity represent?

Help please.:fpraiseyo

Excellent question! Yes, the Holy Spirit would definitely be fire! Jesus I would associate with Earth, to me he is the Earthly incarnation of the Lord and so Earth just seems natural to me. And Jehovah/Yahweh would be Air and Water because neither can really be contained just as God cannot really be defined. Hope that helps!

[Faeawyn]

I haven't ever thought of associating the Holy trinity with elements....I have, however, been working on the association of Mary and Quan Yin with the Earth Mother/Goddess. I have statues representing all 3 on my altar, and I kind of look at them as one spiritual being. I don't pray to Pan or the Horned one....for me it's God (the Christian God) and the Earth Mother. I even have a Rosary on my altar and I've never been Catholic :lol:.

[Aine of the Fae]

I haven't ever thought of associating the Holy trinity with elements....I have, however, been working on the association of Mary and Quan Yin with the Earth Mother/Goddess. I have statues representing all 3 on my altar, and I kind of look at them as one spiritual being. I don't pray to Pan or the Horned one....for me it's God (the Christian God) and the Earth Mother. I even have a Rosary on my altar and I've never been Catholic :lol:.


I've never been Catholic, but I recently got a rosary on Ebay and I can't wait until it comes in the mail. You can see it here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4907466065&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

It's hematite, my favorite stone! I'm so excited :lol:

[Morr]

My altar is kind of a mess now.. I'm going through a major shift in spirituality, probably towards this very direction but with a lot of reserve for several reasons..
As for now, I have two white candles sitting on it, my incense burner, a picture of Stonehenge, a little statue of a pixie, a box that holds a rosary within it and on the box there is a drawing of Mother Mary & the Sacred Heart and on the other side theres a Rose. I also have my other Rosary that I got in the Vatican on my Altar as well (in a box too). I got my fave Tarot Deck sitting on my Altar as well..

I never really thought of associating the Trinity with the 4 elements. personally, for me it doesnt work to be honest.

[Faeawyn]

I've never been Catholic, but I recently got a rosary on Ebay and I can't wait until it comes in the mail. You can see it here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4907466065&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

It's hematite, my favorite stone! I'm so excited :lol:
Thats beautiful Aine....I may have to get one of those too :lol: I bought this one off Ebay a month ago and love it
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11670&item=6104925205&rd=1

[Brinclhof]

My altar is kind of a mess now.. I'm going through a major shift in spirituality, probably towards this very direction but with a lot of reserve for several reasons..
As for now, I have two white candles sitting on it, my incense burner, a picture of Stonehenge, a little statue of a pixie, a box that holds a rosary within it and on the box there is a drawing of Mother Mary & the Sacred Heart and on the other side theres a Rose. I also have my other Rosary that I got in the Vatican on my Altar as well (in a box too). I got my fave Tarot Deck sitting on my Altar as well..

My altar consists of 3 stones that I brought from my parents home in Texas. I wanted stones from Texas to hopefully help me reconnect with the astral plane (since I am able to sense the astral plane in texas but not where I live now.) I burn incense directly on one of hte stones and I have two configurations one compact with the stones stacked and one with the stones spread out for offerings and spell work. I know it is very plain but it works for me.


I never really thought of associating the Trinity with the 4 elements. personally, for me it doesnt work to be honest.

I'm not totally sure if the association with the four elements is going to work for me either. But Aine's associations made alot more sense than the associations I used in my altar blessing ritual.

If you want to see a copy of my altar ritual let me know.

[HorseCrow]

Excellent sites.

[Aine of the Fae]

My altar is kind of a mess now.. I'm going through a major shift in spirituality, probably towards this very direction but with a lot of reserve for several reasons..
As for now, I have two white candles sitting on it, my incense burner, a picture of Stonehenge, a little statue of a pixie, a box that holds a rosary within it and on the box there is a drawing of Mother Mary & the Sacred Heart and on the other side theres a Rose. I also have my other Rosary that I got in the Vatican on my Altar as well (in a box too). I got my fave Tarot Deck sitting on my Altar as well..

I never really thought of associating the Trinity with the 4 elements. personally, for me it doesnt work to be honest.

I was sooo hesitant when I found that Christ was calling to me. I freaked out! I did NOT want to be a Christian. I was a happy Pagan! When I finally listened he threw me into system shock by sending me to a fundamentalist church. Scary thing was, at the time, I loved it. :wtf: Still do in some ways. I love the worship atmosphere, I love that if I want to bow down or yell out hallelujahs in the middle of service, they aren't going to freak out on me. However, I find serious fault with their Theological views and with their interpretation of the Bible. And they are starting to freak out on me because of my Pagan past. At first they were ok with it, but now there talking about Deliverance.... scary, scary thing... think it might be time to find a new church.... I think God sent me to that church to show me the extremes of spirituality. I've seen Pagan fundamentalists, and I was shown what it was like to BE a Christian fundamentalist. While I don't agree with them, I can understand them better now. I thought I was a tolerant person before, but I am even more so now.

As for an altar, I don't have one at the moment. My husband maintained his dragon altar though. I keep getting "I told you so" looks from him every time I pull out my cards or a book. I ALMOST burned them all!!! I am sooo glad I didn't.

I can understand the association of the elements with the Trinity, however I don't think it's something I'll use, simply because I don't think the Trinity needs that association, it's powerful enough on it's own.

[Aine of the Fae]

Thats beautiful Aine....I may have to get one of those too :lol: I bought this one off Ebay a month ago and love it
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11670&item=6104925205&rd=1

Oh, that's pretty! That's my husbands birth month stone! Ooh, she's got a Sapphire one too! Yay september!!

I'm thinking about getting one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6105272979&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

It's a Buddhist Mala and the beads are natural, they're Rudrakshah, which is an Indian seed that has spiritual properties of healing and the ability to help with concentration during meditation!

[Aine of the Fae]

I was just thinking about the name, Jesus, and how it's been Anglicized from Yeshua. I was wondering what affect that has on Christianity. Names are powerful, and by using Jesus instead of the proper Yeshua, I wonder if that changes anything in the worship. Opinions please?

[Brinclhof]

I was just thinking about the name, Jesus, and how it's been Anglicized from Yeshua. I was wondering what affect that has on Christianity. Names are powerful, and by using Jesus instead of the proper Yeshua, I wonder if that changes anything in the worship. Opinions please?

My first response is to think about Shakespear

"what's in a name, A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet"

so my first thought is no it wouldn't change anything in the worship but I will think on it some more.

[CeSeun]

First of all this is wonderful!

I am newly returned to Christian Witchcraft/Christo-Paganism/Christian Wicca. Brought up Catholic - church on Sundays! :zzzzZZZ: but feeling the draw/calling of Wicca I dabbled during the late 80's. Feeling frustrated and alone I stopped looking for answers. I have now returned, and am so glad I did.

I am defenately going to visit the sites (thanks Aine of the Fae!) I have not yet set up an alter..don't know where to start. As for the items I have already aquired: Crystals, candles, and of course a Rosary (from Lordes). I am also having trouble linking the Goddess/God to Jesus/God/Mary/Holy Trinity. Although this is a thought I had: God is God he/she who created everything..does it matter by which name we call God? Like Brinclhof I also think of Shakespear's "what's in a name..."

I feel a bit overwhelmed at the moment...not knowing what to do first, where to start...

I'm glad to have stopped in today to find this thread though! It is wonderful to not feel so alone anymore :woot:

[Tobias]

I love that if I want to bow down or yell out hallelujahs in the middle of service, they aren't going to freak out on me.

Aine,

You call that a Fundimentalist church?? LOL, I guess even Charismatic/Penticostal churches can be very fundimental when it comes to their doctrines and beliefs in the Bible. I don't think you are going to do much better in finding a different church though, unless you live in a big city that has lots of them. Most of the time the only place they leave for God to speak or do anything is during your personal Bible reading.

Deliverance could be a bit tricky to get through, if you decide to go that route. You have to do a lot of renouncing and confession of sin, last I checked. I've been a deliverance minister, but it seems like everybody does it differently. The whole principle of it is good, because there do tend to be a lot of negative energies that attach themselves to us; but the Christian way to get rid of them is to confess every possible sin you may ever have committed (and sometimes your parents' sins and grandparents'), with the end goal of being perfectly right in God's eyes so that He will remove all negative oppression. Witchcraft, of course, is a real biggie when it comes to things to repent for.

Personally though, God had me spend years and years in church growing and learning all kinds of stuff that has helped me on my way. There were many things He taught me though that I had to keep hidden. And, I saw many minor miracles He worked on my behalf to keep me "off the radar", to where nobody asked point blank what exactly I believe.

This is one of the areas that taught me how to have faith in God. Sometimes my heart was beatting out of my chest, just sure I was going to get caught and exposed this time. But it never happened. As long as God wanted me to be in church, and as many ministries as He wanted me to partisipate in and learn from, no one ever found out that my personal beliefs differed from theirs because I listen to God and believe what He sais over the Bible and church doctrine.

[Tobias]

I was just thinking about the name, Jesus, and how it's been Anglicized from Yeshua. I was wondering what affect that has on Christianity. Names are powerful, and by using Jesus instead of the proper Yeshua, I wonder if that changes anything in the worship. Opinions please?


I spent some time in a Messianic Congregation, wich is basically a mix between Judaism and Christianity. The original followers of Jesus for many years followed the old Jewish law, and the teachings of Jesus. There are many things in Judaism that point to the nature of God, and it was really cool learning from a Christian Rabbi how it all fits in with Christianity.

Anyway, yes, they did use all the Jewish names for God. Yeshua Ha'Meshiah (Jesus the Christ) and the Ruach Ha'Kaddesh (Holy Spirit). They've even gone through the whole Bible changing all the names back to their original Jewish form, instead of the English version we are used to.

[Faeawyn]

Have you seen this prayer? Its to be used with prayer beads and I thought it was just wonderful :)

On the Centering Bead I say some favorite prayer like the Lord's Prayer, or like my adaptation which I call the Lady's Prayer:.
Dear Lady of the earth and stars,
Blessed be your name.
May justice come, and right be done
On earth as in our dreams.
Grant us the wisdom and courage we need
And forgive us when we fail
As we forgive those who fail us.
And help us hold back the darkness
In the world and in our own hearts.
So may it be.
On the Warm Up beads I say,
I look to the East, and I see you in the early morning dawn. I feel you in the fragrant wind that sweeps across the prairie in the springtime of the year.
I look to the South and I see you in the high sun of noon. I feel you in the rippling heat that shimmers in the desert lands in the summer of the year.
I look to the West and I see you in the twilight of the evening. I feel you in the waterfalls that tumble down the mountainside in the autumn of the year.
I look to the North and I see you in the starry skies of night. I feel you in the standing stones left by glaciers long ago in the winter of the year.
After I pause on the Naming bead, I say the following on the next seven beads:
You made the light and the stars and the vastness of space.
You made the blue-green earth, with its mountains, forests, rivers and seas.
You made the ever-changing cycle of the seasons, the green things that grow,
multiply, die, are buried, and grow again.
You made the new-born creatures that struggle from the womb to open wondering
eyes on a new world.
You made the sweet rest of death, and sleep to teach us not to fear.
You made our human hearts filled with violence and love, and our human
hands that can hurt or heal.
You made hope that lights candles and sings in the darkness until walls
crumble away.
After I pause on the Knowing bead, I say the following on the next seven beads:
When I am selfish, help me to be generous.
When I am greedy, help me to be content.
When I am angry, help me to be patient.
When I am grouchy, help me to be kind.
When I am gossipy, help me to be silent.
When I am frightened, help me to be brave.
When I am anxious, help me to be wise.
The next section takes the longest, because as I pray for blessings on each group of people, I pause and imagine a beautiful golden light streaming down over each person in the group, filling them with peace and joy. After I pause on the Loving bead, I say the following on the next seven beads:
Please bless my family.
Please bless my friends.
Please bless my enemies.
Please bless our leaders and help them to be wise.
Please bless those in sickness, pain and poverty.
Please bless those in captivity and danger.
Please bless me.
Then I pause on the Listening Bead, talking silently to God and listening for the reply. Finally I do the Cool Down beads, saying:
I look to the East, and I thank you for the early morning dawn. I thank you for the fragrant wind that sweeps across the prairie in the springtime of the year.
I look to the South and I thank you for the high sun of noon. I thank you for the rippling heat that shimmers in the desert lands in the summer of the year.
I look to the West and I thank you for the twilight of the evening. I thank you for the waterfalls that tumble down the mountainside in the autumn of the year.
I look to the North and I thank you for the starry skies of night. I thank you for the standing stones left by glaciers long ago in the winter of the year.

[Calyx]

That was quite lovely and inspirational, Faewyn!
Thanks for sharing that--may I use some of it? :hugz:

[luna rising]

Faeawyn, The Lady's Prayer is absolutely wonderful! I've always used my own words for my daily blessing, but if you don't mind, I might have to switch it up with yours once in a while :)

I don't know that I could ever really call myself a Christian Witch. I have never been baptised, and beyond that, it is really all the Dogma, not the beliefs, of modern Christianity that I have a problem with. I have never really felt a calling to Jesus, but I definitely feel pulled to Mary, even more so to the Shekhina, and most of all to Mary Magdelene. I also have trouble coming to a conclusion on whether or not I believe God is a conscious entity.

But on my altar I have two very large statues - probably about a foot and a half tall - of Mary and Jesus. Their faces are full of serenity and wisdom, and those are wonderful focus points for me. Plus, they were my grandmothers, and my mother's after her - so I feel a deep ancestral connection when I look at them.

I really don't understand why people get in such a huff when it comes to the topic of Christian Witchcraft/Wicca etc. The pantheons that are most prevalent in modern paganism are archaic, but at one time they were practiced with as much Dogma and vehemence as is modern Christianity. And so long as we are kind and just to our fellow man, Jesus would not condemn us. If you are on a polytheistic path, especially one that crosses pantheons, how is it possible to say that one is wrong? Modern Catholicism, with its Saints, can even be considered polytheistic. Because when you get down to the fundamentals - oooh, bad word choice -- when you get down to the basics, Christianity is really just another pantheon: a representation of what makes you feel spiritually whole.

So I cheer for those of you that are Christo/Pagans. Thanks for the good links, and thanks for the good thread :)

[Faeawyn]

That was quite lovely and inspirational, Faewyn!
Thanks for sharing that--may I use some of it? :hugz:
of course :)

[Faeawyn]

http://northernway.org/school/onw/prayers.html
this site has some nice ones too....especially this one:

Earth Rosary
by Anne Safyre
From http://www.sacredgrove.com/1%20earth%20healing%20rosary.htm

The purpose of the Earth Rosary is to pray for the healing of the Earth and Her children.

The gold/ brown decade is for Africa
The purple/rose decade is for the Americas
The green decade is for Europe
The blue/aqua decade is for Oceania
The white/yellow decade is for Asia

If you are making an Earth Rosary, use the colors of your choice for the beads, or just use any standard rosary you already have.

On the medal, cross or pendant of your rosary say the

Prayer for the World:

May the World be led to the Truth and the Light, through the King and Queen of Peace, Justice, Mercy and Love. May we be shown the Divine Purpose of the Earth, and receive Her brightest blessings!

On the first bead say the

Sky Father Prayer:
Our Father, who art the Heavens, hallowed be Thy name
May peace and love reign on Earth as they do in the Summerland.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us for hurting our Mother the Earth. Help us to teach others The Way of Caring.
And lead us from destruction by delivering us from ignorance and greed.
So mote it be.

Say the Hail Mother on each of the next three beads for Our Mother the Earth, who has been so desecrated at the hands of mankind:

Hail Mother, full of grace Thy gifts to us are abundant!
Holy Earth , Mother of us all
Our beloved, living home! Receive the Healing Energies we send to You
As we receive your Most Holy Healing Power, Goddess Almighty.
So mote it be.

On the 5th bead say the Sky Father Prayer again:

Our Father, who art the Heavens, hallowed be Thy name
May peace and love reign on Earth as they do in the Summerland.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us for hurting our Mother the Earth. Help us to teach others The Way of Caring. And lead us from destruction by delivering us from ignorance and greed.
So mote it be.

As you pass through the gate of the central medal and enter the circle of this rosary, honor the blessings of the Guardian ArchAngels of the four directions and elements:

Ariel, ArchAngel of the Earth,
Guide us now and at the hour of our rebirth.

Raphael, ArchAngel of the Air,
Help us to heal and to care.

Michael, ArchAngel of Fire
Let love be our greatest desire.

Gabriel, ArchAngel of the Waters
Protect the God/dess' sons and daughters.

On each of the decade beads say the Hail Mother prayer:

Hail Mother, full of grace Thy Gifts to us are abundant! Holy Earth, Mother of Life! Our beloved, living home! Help us to care for and heal You and others as we would Care for and heal ourselves. So mote it be.

On the divider beads that follow each decade, say the Glory Be to Gaia, the Sun and the Great Spirit:

Glory Be to Life-Giving Gaia, And to the Sun for His Light and His Warmth, and to the Great Spirit that dwells in all Living things on Earth. As it Was in the beginning , is now And ever shall be, World Divinely created and without end.

Close the circle of the rosary with The Earth Blessing:
Let the sacred circle of this Rosary remind us of the Miracle that is the Earth.
Let Her love and peace Encircle us and guide us in all we do.

Blessed Be!
Blessed Be!
Blessed Be!

[Morr]

I was wondering if anybody would be interested -
Since i live in Israel, in the Christian areas here theres a lot of stores that sell rosaries (made from olive tree wood taken from Jerusalem/Beth Lehem), holy water from the Jordan River/Holy Oil made of Olive Trees/Holy Land Earth (from Bethlehem), pictures of Jesus & Mary, etc...
i live about 5 minutes away from one of the more larger Christian Communities in Israel, so they have stores like that over there.
So if any of you are interested for something like that for yourself & altar - dont hesitate to ask :) Rosaries are generally $4 and come ina white box with a drawing of Mary on one side, and a drawing of a Rose on the other, and the Rosary smells like roses (i own one too - i LOVE it!)... the holy water/oil/earth usually come in a small packet together all three, each in small bottles.. costs about $3. (Shipping from here to the US is $1 for the Rosary, and $2 for the water/oil/earth packet).
I dont mind trading for even local rosaries you guys can find there, or anything else you can offer for trade.

So if anyone is interested - PM me!

[Brinclhof]

Anyone doing anyhthing for the blue moon this month?

I am thinking about doing something but I don't know what I would do or even what I should do.

Posting this here to get the christo-pagan view point and will probably post under new pagans to get the general view point.

[Aine of the Fae]

Aine,

You call that a Fundimentalist church?? LOL, I guess even Charismatic/Penticostal churches can be very fundimental when it comes to their doctrines and beliefs in the Bible. I don't think you are going to do much better in finding a different church though, unless you live in a big city that has lots of them. Most of the time the only place they leave for God to speak or do anything is during your personal Bible reading.

Deliverance could be a bit tricky to get through, if you decide to go that route. You have to do a lot of renouncing and confession of sin, last I checked. I've been a deliverance minister, but it seems like everybody does it differently. The whole principle of it is good, because there do tend to be a lot of negative energies that attach themselves to us; but the Christian way to get rid of them is to confess every possible sin you may ever have committed (and sometimes your parents' sins and grandparents'), with the end goal of being perfectly right in God's eyes so that He will remove all negative oppression. Witchcraft, of course, is a real biggie when it comes to things to repent for.

Personally though, God had me spend years and years in church growing and learning all kinds of stuff that has helped me on my way. There were many things He taught me though that I had to keep hidden. And, I saw many minor miracles He worked on my behalf to keep me "off the radar", to where nobody asked point blank what exactly I believe.

This is one of the areas that taught me how to have faith in God. Sometimes my heart was beatting out of my chest, just sure I was going to get caught and exposed this time. But it never happened. As long as God wanted me to be in church, and as many ministries as He wanted me to partisipate in and learn from, no one ever found out that my personal beliefs differed from theirs because I listen to God and believe what He sais over the Bible and church doctrine.


I DON'T want to go through the deliverance. Ick... My sins are between God and I and they are no one elses business!

As far as finding a church, I have to walk away from the one I'm at now. God isn't giving me at a choice. He threw me in there, shock treatment I guess you'd call it, and now wants me elsewhere. Not sure exactly where that is yet... but I'll find it.

[Aine of the Fae]

Anyone doing anyhthing for the blue moon this month?

I am thinking about doing something but I don't know what I would do or even what I should do.

Posting this here to get the christo-pagan view point and will probably post under new pagans to get the general view point.

I'm not doing anything for it... but I don't usually celebrate the moons.

[Aine of the Fae]

http://www.worldprayers.org/

This site has tons of prayers from all different faiths. You can search by topic, or get random prayers.

[Brinclhof]

I DON'T want to go through the deliverance. Ick... My sins are between God and I and they are no one elses business!

As far as finding a church, I have to walk away from the one I'm at now. God isn't giving me at a choice. He threw me in there, shock treatment I guess you'd call it, and now wants me elsewhere. Not sure exactly where that is yet... but I'll find it.

Ever thought about Methodist. It would be a very drastic change from the fundamental church you have been attending. Most methodist churches are fairly liberal and open minded.

[Aine of the Fae]

Ever thought about Methodist. It would be a very drastic change from the fundamental church you have been attending. Most methodist churches are fairly liberal and open minded.

Actually I'm considering going to the local Methodist church. My grandmother is a retired Methodist minister and she goes to that church too. I KNOW the pastor of that church is fairly liberal, my grandmother had to meet with him about something and I drove her and saw some very interesting books on his shelf. Not the kind of books you'd expect to find on a Christian minister's bookshelf :)

[Aine of the Fae]

Here's a prayer I found on the World Prayers site:

O Gods!
All your names and forms are to be
revered, saluted and adored.

rig veda X, 63, 2

[Kalika]

Good way to help people understand Christo-Paganism and Christian Witches a bit better. :)

[Morr]

I DON'T want to go through the deliverance. Ick... My sins are between God and I and they are no one elses business!

As far as finding a church, I have to walk away from the one I'm at now. God isn't giving me at a choice. He threw me in there, shock treatment I guess you'd call it, and now wants me elsewhere. Not sure exactly where that is yet... but I'll find it.

Aine,
why do you always say that God is sending you to.../wanting you to...? do you think that every single move in your life/spiritual life is caused according to God's will only and in his direction of how it will happen?
Dont you think God will trust you to get to where you need to get through decision YOU make? Your own mistakes and learning lessons? etc.

Just throwing that in there.........
would love to hear what the rest of you think on the subject (in general, not in Aine's specific situation).

[Brinclhof]

Aine,
why do you always say that God is sending you to.../wanting you to...? do you think that every single move in your life/spiritual life is caused according to God's will only and in his direction of how it will happen?
Dont you think God will trust you to get to where you need to get through decision YOU make? Your own mistakes and learning lessons? etc.

Just throwing that in there.........
would love to hear what the rest of you think on the subject (in general, not in Aine's specific situation).

Well I can't speak for Aine but I personally don't believe that God is responsible for every spiritual move I make. I do think he has an influence though. As I have started down this path I have spent a good bit of time in prayer and meditation. I have gotten a sense of peace and acceptance since I have started on path that I feel he is at least approving of my decision and guideing me on my journey.

I have been unhappy in my church for a while and have felt like something was missing from my spiritual life. I have been searching for something for a while and my wife got involved in our local pagan community. She got me going to some events and after a weekend retreat I felt I had found what I was missing. That is when i started down this path.

just my opinion. I feel that you can feel the influence of God in your life and at times he sends very clear messages.

[Ron]

Anyone doing anyhthing for the blue moon this month?

I am thinking about doing something but I don't know what I would do or even what I should do.

Posting this here to get the christo-pagan view point and will probably post under new pagans to get the general view point.
Me bites himself.... what is a blue moon? :hairred:

[Ron]

Friday night brings us the first of two full moons this month. Some almanacs and calendars assert that when two full moons occur within a calendar month, the second full moon is called the “Blue Moon.” That second full moon will come July 31. The full moon that night will look no different from any other full moon.

lol... never mind about my blue moon forgetfulness in my last post...

I'm not doing much, actually it is my Gwyl Canol Haf (Litha) Esbat... don't hate me lol... I know the solstice was like last week.

[Ron]

Friday night brings us the first of two full moons this month. Some almanacs and calendars assert that when two full moons occur within a calendar month, the second full moon is called the “Blue Moon.” That second full moon will come July 31. The full moon that night will look no different from any other full moon.

ooo I see!! :)

I'm not doing anything *special* because I don't follow the Gregorian calendar.

[Brinclhof]

Me bites himself.... what is a blue moon? :hairred:

A blue moon is the term used for the second full moon within a single month(I think). I don't know if it really has any special significance. That is one reason I was asking if anyone was doing anything to celebrate it.

I also posted this thread under New pagans to try and get some information there.

[Tobias]

God has always been very specific and direct in telling me what to do. I understand completely what Aine is talking about. It's not like He forces you to do His will or anything, it's just that if you want His influence in your life you'd better keep up with following Him or you'll get left behind on your own.

That's why I still call Him the God of the Bible. He acts just the same in many ways. It is impossible to please Him without responding to what He says in faith. You have to weed out tons of stuff they teach you in Christianity, yet when everything's said and done He is the one and only God of the Christians, and who's ways are explained through the Bible.

[Tobias]

I guess I should mention too, that a lot of my path centers around the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus always spoke of. You'd think it would be the core of Christianity, but most just pass it over like it's only got to do with what happens after we die.

But Jesus said it was for right here and now, so I've been learning what it means to be a member of it. For a while ther God let me talk to some of the angels around here who have been serving Him for many many years. Why do they willingly obey His commands? Because they too desire to see happen what He asks them to do. By joining forces with so many others much more can be accomplished than if everyone does their own thing.

I love the influence that God has had in my life. I want to partisipate in doing the same for others, more so than I want to be the one to dictate what happens in my own life. It is only understandable that anyone wanting a place in the "Kingdom" would have to learn how important it is to be reliable to carry out the part of the plan that's assigned to you. One person deciding to take the day off could ruin everything that so many others have worked for.

So, though at times it may seem that God is rather anal about having things done a certain way, He is always patient to teach me the how and why He asked me to do something. Ultimately I imagine that it is My choice of whether I participate in this or not. The only other choice I've come across in the past though is a dull boring Muggle life.

He did ask me recently if I wish to continue. I doubt at this point that I would have to drop all spiritual involvement like I did before. Come to think of it, the time I did tell Him to "go shove it" I also said I wanted to be a "normal Christian" again. Hmmm...

It doesn't really matter. I want to be a part of His Kingdom. I don't know if I will still feel this way forever in the future, but He has assured me that I'm always free to bail out if I want.

[Morr]

i personally dont think that god is 100% all the time tangled & is part of my life & the events in it..
i like to think that i have *some* control over my life and that I do things because IVE accomplished them or because I needed to learn a lesson through making choices & think about my path in life... Not because some higher power pushed me there to teach me a lesson, or that it was all premeditated.. because if it is so - Why make any choices in life at all? If god is the one pushing & planning & orchestrating your life and where its heading - Why bother to do anything at all?

I think that God is there when you seek him, but is not there all the time in a 100% manner.

Like, Aine, in your case -
you say God sent you to that fundie church to get a "shock" of how people can get when it comes to religion.. well those same people will say "god called you, you came, but Satan used his evil doings and managed to tempt you to leave the church and now youre doomed"... and I say "you were going through a rough patch in your spirituality.. you needed answers & seeked guidance, and the first choice you made - was a mistake. But you experienced it on all levels and decided that it was not for you. This brought you to the spiritual direction you are now within and are comfortable with".

So whos right?
I'm not saying that the inspiration, love & essence of God isnt there all the time. I personally think it is - Our Soul IS part of God, in my opinion. And we each possese a soul. However, I think that God doesnt call every single shot in our lives and doesnt "bring" us places or "pushes" us to places.

But thats just my opinion of course.

[Aine of the Fae]

Aine,
why do you always say that God is sending you to.../wanting you to...? do you think that every single move in your life/spiritual life is caused according to God's will only and in his direction of how it will happen?
Dont you think God will trust you to get to where you need to get through decision YOU make? Your own mistakes and learning lessons? etc.

Just throwing that in there.........
would love to hear what the rest of you think on the subject (in general, not in Aine's specific situation).

I don't think God is guiding every move in my spiritual life, however I find that when I find a comfort zone, things tend to get a bit shaken up to throw me out of it. Like now, I thought I'd found a church that I liked. But a few things have happened that are pulling me away from it. Is it God? Or is it all in my head? I don't really know, but I trust that I'll go where I need to be and I trust that it's God doing it.

[Aine of the Fae]

i personally dont think that god is 100% all the time tangled & is part of my life & the events in it..
i like to think that i have *some* control over my life and that I do things because IVE accomplished them or because I needed to learn a lesson through making choices & think about my path in life... Not because some higher power pushed me there to teach me a lesson, or that it was all premeditated.. because if it is so - Why make any choices in life at all? If god is the one pushing & planning & orchestrating your life and where its heading - Why bother to do anything at all?

I think that God is there when you seek him, but is not there all the time in a 100% manner.

Like, Aine, in your case -
you say God sent you to that fundie church to get a "shock" of how people can get when it comes to religion.. well those same people will say "god called you, you came, but Satan used his evil doings and managed to tempt you to leave the church and now youre doomed"... and I say "you were going through a rough patch in your spirituality.. you needed answers & seeked guidance, and the first choice you made - was a mistake. But you experienced it on all levels and decided that it was not for you. This brought you to the spiritual direction you are now within and are comfortable with".

So whos right?
I'm not saying that the inspiration, love & essence of God isnt there all the time. I personally think it is - Our Soul IS part of God, in my opinion. And we each possese a soul. However, I think that God doesnt call every single shot in our lives and doesnt "bring" us places or "pushes" us to places.

But thats just my opinion of course.


I can understand your view Morr, but I do believe God is pushing me and pulling me. I believe this because the more I resist Him, the more of a mess my life becomes. When I finally said "Ok, God, what is it you want me to do, what do you want from me?" and I listened, and I did it, my life finally started to straighten out. That may not be God, it may be my higher self or a highly overactive imagination, however I choose to believe that it's God, because I need to believe it's God. At least in this point in my life I do.

And yes, the church I've been going to does think it's Satan leading me away from the 'safety of their walls.' However, I came to a realization during the week before Pentacost. It was an experience that made me realize that the only evil in this world is man made, there is only God, there is no Devil, and ALL good things, no matter WHAT religion, all good things, come from God.

Let me explain.

The week befor Pentacost Sunday my church had prayer nights every night. I went to the first one on Monday and there were only four other people there, the pastor and his wife, the music minister and one of the other members. And let me tell you Pentacostals/Charismatics can pray!!! I'd never encountered 'Speaking in Tongues' before, but I expected it. What I didn't expect was the power, the energy raised in that church that night. It was amazing. But, and this is a HUGE but for me, it felt exactly the same as the power raised in circle by a group of witches that I used to work with! It felt the same, it tasted the same, my body responded in the same way, everything about it was the same, except the religion. It really made me realize that it's ALL from God, no matter what name you call it by! A spell is just a ritualized prayer, a prayer is just a spell with no tools! It's all the same. And that's when I started coming back toward my Pagan roots. But I didn't want to abandon Christianity altogether, I felt too good with Christ.

And that's been the difficult part, uniting my past with my present to become one future. It's been hard, I've had many doubts. I still have doubts! I still question everyday if I'm doing the right thing. And then something will happen to remind me that it's ok, it's all from God and therefore it CAN'T be wrong! Anything I do to benefit another person, to benefit myself without harming another person, or to benefit the Earth, is good and it's from God. It doesn't matter what name I call it, it doesn't matter what religion it claims to be from, because it's all from, and it all leads to the same place.

At least that's what I believe.

[Faeawyn]

I believe in God as a sort of father figure. He's there when I need help, teaches me what he feels I need to know, he guides me in the right direction, but ultimately, leaves the decisions to me and supports me in those decisions. In my belief, my path was written by me in accordance with God before I was born....and it's mine to follow. If I stray, I may lose sight of the lessons I need to learn until I find my way back again. All the while, he is patient and understanding :)

[Morr]

I believe in God as a sort of father figure. He's there when I need help, teaches me what he feels I need to know, he guides me in the right direction, but ultimately, leaves the decisions to me and supports me in those decisions. In my belief, my path was written by me in accordance with God before I was born....and it's mine to follow. If I stray, I may lose sight of the lessons I need to learn until I find my way back again. All the while, he is patient and understanding :)

yeah Faeawyn just put it in better words then I did..
ths is pretty much how i view it all as well.

[Tobias]

What I didn't expect was the power, the energy raised in that church that night. It was amazing. But, and this is a HUGE but for me, it felt exactly the same as the power raised in circle by a group of witches that I used to work with! It felt the same, it tasted the same, my body responded in the same way, everything about it was the same, except the religion. It really made me realize that it's ALL from God, no matter what name you call it by!

This is exactly where I'm coming from. I've spent years and years focusing on this power, and learning what to do to cause God to show up like that. I am quite baffled to find out that Pagans can work with the same power. But I can't deny that it is God who has led me here, and that much of what i've had the opportunity to discern comes from the same sourse that I'm familliar with.

I know that the reason my path is narrow is because there is a specific job that God would love to have me do. I do have a choice of whether I want to recieve the training and take the job. Why should I say no? I can't think of anything funer and more exciting than living a magickal life following the leading of a god I cannot see.

[Morr]

I am quite baffled to find out that Pagans can work with the same power.


why are you baffled?

Divine has many faces.
There is no right or wrong.
All religions have the same common ground - which is Divine guidance, love & teaching.

Its what humans do later on with these Divine gifts that curropt religions, cause war & hate.

[Aine of the Fae]

I believe in God as a sort of father figure. He's there when I need help, teaches me what he feels I need to know, he guides me in the right direction, but ultimately, leaves the decisions to me and supports me in those decisions. In my belief, my path was written by me in accordance with God before I was born....and it's mine to follow. If I stray, I may lose sight of the lessons I need to learn until I find my way back again. All the while, he is patient and understanding :)

That pretty much describes how I see it! God and I actively working together. God knows better than I do about wherre I'm going because the human mind just doesn't remember anything beyond the current life.

[Tobias]

Morr said:
i like to think that i have *some* control over my life and that I do things because IVE accomplished them or because I needed to learn a lesson through making choices & think about my path in life... Not because some higher power pushed me there to teach me a lesson, or that it was all premeditated.. because if it is so - Why make any choices in life at all? If god is the one pushing & planning & orchestrating your life and where its heading - Why bother to do anything at all?


I think that the doctines about God's Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience are some of the worst poisons in Christianity. They take away our whole reason for existence, and leave us with nothing to do but try and kiss up to Him.

Mabey this is why many Pagans object so strongly to any path that includes some Christianity?

[Tobias]

why are you baffled?

Divine has many faces.
There is no right or wrong.
All religions have the same common ground - which is Divine guidance, love & teaching.

Its what humans do later on with these Divine gifts that curropt religions, cause war & hate.


Why am I baffled?? Perhaps you haven't heard, but most Christians have an aversion to accepting Pagans, Witches, and Witchcraft...

But, I'm seeing that God in His divine Grace has reached out to all mankind and answered their need for guidance, no matter the culture or what face that they paint on Him. In fact, I imagine the same has been done for Christians, and what I understand to be "God" is just another face of the Divine.

[Phi]

Well hello! Aine of the Fae, how courageous you are.
I began my journey with a pledge at 7 to follow Christ.
It was exceedingly hard for me because I immediately began to question, and was told by elders in the church "There are some things you just don't ask." To which I replied, "Why?" They said "There are some things we are not meant to understand." To which I replied "Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall open, ask and it shall be given..." He says to ask, you say I shouldn't ask...I'll go by what he says..."
(Keep in mind I was 7-8 years old then, now I am 52.)
Some time ago I left off calling myself "Christian" because it had been taken over by many who did not follow, and because it seemed to give others (Christian and non-Christian alike) a point of view regarding me that was incorrect. I came to the conclusion that I was not "Christian" as that word is defined in our world, even though I had not gone back on my childhood pledge. He said "seek" so I call myself a "seeker."
I could say much, because I have studied much. But for now, I will just say hi. :wave:

[Phi]

Morr said:


I think that the doctines about God's Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience are some of the worst poisons in Christianity. They take away our whole reason for existence, and leave us with nothing to do but try and kiss up to Him.

Mabey this is why many Pagans object so strongly to any path that includes some Christianity?

The energy of the sunshine is omnipotent, omnipresent, and in some very interesting ways omniscient too, here on earth, but have you felt a need to "kiss up" to sunshine? :smile:

[Tobias]

The energy of the sunshine is omnipotent, omnipresent, and in some very interesting ways omniscient too, here on earth, but have you felt a need to "kiss up" to sunshine? :smile:

For all I know God could be Omni-everything. It's the way that Christians generally see this that's the problem.

Perhaps God said He is all-powerfull so that we wouldn't worry about anything happening to us that was out of His control. Instead though Christians tend to think that what they do and how they do things doesn't matter, because God can fix anything. It's like "The Earth doesn't have to orbit around the sun to sustain life, it's just convinient that it does so." In fact, for the first few days of creation there was no sun to orbit until the day after all the plants were made.

This thinking absolves all responsibility on our part, meaning we can screw anything up that we want, and God will fix it. Blowing up the planet with nuclear wepons is a good thing, it just means God will recreate it sooner.

Omniscience has a similar effect on us. If God knows everything I'm ever going to do, what's this illusion of "Free Will"?? Nothing I do matters, it was all designed in God's head before any of us were made.

[Ben Trismegistus]

The energy of the sunshine is omnipotent, omnipresent, and in some very interesting ways omniscient too, here on earth, but have you felt a need to "kiss up" to sunshine? :smile:
How exactly is sunshine omnipotent? Can it cure cancer? Feed people? Move mountains?

Oh Aine, regarding Trinity/elemental correspondences: I would have thought that the Holy Spirit would correspond with Air. There are loads of references in the Bible equating the Holy Spirit with the wind and the Breath of Life. The word "spirit" itself comes from a word root meaning "breath".

[Aine of the Fae]

How exactly is sunshine omnipotent? Can it cure cancer? Feed people? Move mountains?

Oh Aine, regarding Trinity/elemental correspondences: I would have thought that the Holy Spirit would correspond with Air. There are loads of references in the Bible equating the Holy Spirit with the wind and the Breath of Life. The word "spirit" itself comes from a word root meaning "breath".

There is one scripture I think of when equating the Holy Spirit with Fire:

"They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2:3

This occured at Pentecost. The United Methodist emblem is a flame and a cross, the flame representing the Holy Spirit.

But yes, I can see how the Holy Spirit could also be equated with Air. Which is one of the reasons I choose not to use the elements and associate them with the Trinity. Each could be any of them.

[Phi]

How exactly is sunshine omnipotent? Can it cure cancer? Feed people? Move mountains?

Oh Aine, regarding Trinity/elemental correspondences: I would have thought that the Holy Spirit would correspond with Air. There are loads of references in the Bible equating the Holy Spirit with the wind and the Breath of Life. The word "spirit" itself comes from a word root meaning "breath".

It is omnipotent in that without it there would be no cancer, people nor mountains. (Earth revolves around the sun, there is no sunshine without the sun, therefore there will no longer be an earth should sunshine cease because that would require that the sun cease to burn...If our star goes out, so does earth and everything on it.)
It definitely feeds people, through the chlorophyll in the plants.
It may eventually be discovered whether it can cure cancer.
I suppose it could move mountains, given a particularly large burst of it...many scientists speculate about super solar flares and what might result from them. :tongueout :T

I agree with the analogy with spirit and air/breath.
The feminine principle of God is water, and breath is not dry air, but moist air...

[Ben Trismegistus]

"They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2:3
Ah yes - forgot about Pentecost. Good point!

[Morr]

I figured I'd post this on here, instead of starting a whole new thread...
I was wondering..

Amongst the Christian witches/Chritian Pagans/Christian Mystics/Gnostics/Christian influenced people on these boards -
Am I the only one who views Jesus as an enlightened teacher & a great spiritual leader, but NOT as the son of God/God incarnated/Savior/Messiah?
When I say "Messiah" or "Savior" I dont mean - Personal Messiah/Savior. I mean - THE Messiah/Savior that will come again and bring the Kingdom of God, etc..
I find that theres a BIG difference between PERSONAL Messiah, and THE Messiah...

[Chanda]

Am I the only one who views Jesus as an enlightened teacher & a great spiritual leader, but NOT as the son of God/God incarnated/Savior/Messiah?
I guess I count as a Christian influenced person... I think my view is similar to your view on Jesus. In my opinion he was a human being that had reached enlightment (kinda like Sidharta, hope I spelled that right), he was someone who had the wisdom and cared enough to want to make a change.

My biggest conflict is with Mary, I am divided as to place her as a Goddess or as a human being.

[Brinclhof]

I figured I'd post this on here, instead of starting a whole new thread...
I was wondering..

Amongst the Christian witches/Chritian Pagans/Christian Mystics/Gnostics/Christian influenced people on these boards -
Am I the only one who views Jesus as an enlightened teacher & a great spiritual leader, but NOT as the son of God/God incarnated/Savior/Messiah?
When I say "Messiah" or "Savior" I dont mean - Personal Messiah/Savior. I mean - THE Messiah/Savior that will come again and bring the Kingdom of God, etc..
I find that theres a BIG difference between PERSONAL Messiah, and THE Messiah...

I think of Jesus as THE messiah. It could be the influence I have had my entire life, being raise christian, that has drilled that idea into my brain. Most "mainstream" Christians believe that Jesus is THE messiah. Since that is where I have gotten alot of my christian beliefs that is what I beleive.

[Phi]

Personally since I believe in reincarnation, and since, I believe that that's what Jeshua meant when he said "Ye must be born again," I think you could be right either way...or both ways.

[Faeawyn]

Could you define Messiah for me please? I'm thinking messenger?? but I'm not really sure of how it's defined.

[Morr]

Could you define Messiah for me please? I'm thinking messenger?? but I'm not really sure of how it's defined.


personally, i think that a Messiah can be a personal savior.. or a spiritual teacher or guide..
I think we all have several personal messiahs in our lives... people or figures who have touched our hearts, made us think, taught us truth & valuble lessons..

Jesus, in that sense, is my personal Messiah... So is Madonna... And my best friend.. and even my dog...
They all inspire me, teach me, guide me, challenge me, help me, advise me, cheer me up, etc - in their own special way, in different aspects of my life.

[Tobias]

It makes me cringe to consider saying that Jesus wasn't the Messiah sent to save the world from sin. Yet to say that he was is to also believe in Original Sin, a doctrine which I've gladly tossed out long ago.

I guess it's something I'm not willing to face yet. I don't know the significance of Jesus, but I don't think God is a trinity anymore. I don't suppose anyone really knows the historical truth around the man Jesus, so I'm happy to just let it be.

[Morr]

It makes me cringe to consider saying that Jesus wasn't the Messiah sent to save the world from sin. Yet to say that he was is to also believe in Original Sin, a doctrine which I've gladly tossed out long ago.

I guess it's something I'm not willing to face yet. I don't know the significance of Jesus, but I don't think God is a trinity anymore. I don't suppose anyone really knows the historical truth around the man Jesus, so I'm happy to just let it be.


define sin?
"sin" is not the same in Judaism as in Christianity.
Judaism defines "sin" differently then Christianity.. VERY differently.

So what kind of a sin is Jesus the messiah of?

[Aine of the Fae]

It makes me cringe to consider saying that Jesus wasn't the Messiah sent to save the world from sin. Yet to say that he was is to also believe in Original Sin, a doctrine which I've gladly tossed out long ago.

I guess it's something I'm not willing to face yet. I don't know the significance of Jesus, but I don't think God is a trinity anymore. I don't suppose anyone really knows the historical truth around the man Jesus, so I'm happy to just let it be.

Original Sin was created by the church long after Christ was crucified. It's a justification for some of their other docrines.

[Tobias]

Original Sin is the concept that Adam and Eve blew it for the rest of us, and now everyone is doomed to hell. Jesus came as the Messiah, a sacrificial lamb whose death satisfied the need for each and every one of us to burn for eternity, but only those who call on his name get to go to heaven instead.

This is basic Evangelical (Fundimental) doctrine. It really does sound stupid, doesn't it? I've spent most of my life accepting it as truth, or at least not outright challanging it because everyone around me believes it. My whole family and most everyone I know are Christians who adhere to this doctrine.

I guess I've been avoiding firming up my beliefs about the person of Jesus, because to say he wasn't "God Incarnate" is like driving the final nail on the coffin of my Christianity. At least, that's the way it feels. In actuallity I suppose there are many different veiws concerning what Jesus' purpose here was.

I think that regardless I believe that he did fulfill the prophecies in the Old Testiment of a Messiah. Mabey not all of them. Most Jews at the time were expecting one thing but got another in Jesus. At any rate, he did change the face of religion in a positive way; and I do follow a lot of his teachings.

[Aine of the Fae]

Original Sin is the concept that Adam and Eve blew it for the rest of us, and now everyone is doomed to hell. Jesus came as the Messiah, a sacrificial lamb whose death satisfied the need for each and every one of us to burn for eternity, but only those who call on his name get to go to heaven instead.

This is basic Evangelical (Fundimental) doctrine. It really does sound stupid, doesn't it? I've spent most of my life accepting it as truth, or at least not outright challanging it because everyone around me believes it. My whole family and most everyone I know are Christians who adhere to this doctrine.

I guess I've been avoiding firming up my beliefs about the person of Jesus, because to say he wasn't "God Incarnate" is like driving the final nail on the coffin of my Christianity. At least, that's the way it feels. In actuallity I suppose there are many different veiws concerning what Jesus' purpose here was.

I think that regardless I believe that he did fulfill the prophecies in the Old Testiment of a Messiah. Mabey not all of them. Most Jews at the time were expecting one thing but got another in Jesus. At any rate, he did change the face of religion in a positive way; and I do follow a lot of his teachings.

Yeah, that's the concept, but it was still invented by the Christian church, St. Augustine I believe. It's not something found in Jewish belief at all.

As far as the prophecies? The scriptures that the Christian's use to prophecy the Messiah are entirely different than the scriptures that the Jews use to prophecy the Messiah. So yes, Jesus fulfills the Christian idea of prophecy, but not the Jewish. Saying otherwise will get Morr on ya!

[Morr]

Yeah, that's the concept, but it was still invented by the Christian church, St. Augustine I believe. It's not something found in Jewish belief at all.

As far as the prophecies? The scriptures that the Christian's use to prophecy the Messiah are entirely different than the scriptures that the Jews use to prophecy the Messiah. So yes, Jesus fulfills the Christian idea of prophecy, but not the Jewish. Saying otherwise will get Morr on ya!


i personally checked the passages/phrases used by Christianity to justify Jesus' Christhood from the OT and they are all bits & pieces from different types of books within the OT. It is not one concrete passage that soley talks about the Messiah. Moreover, I also read them all in Hebrew (because I have the original version of the OT written & compoiled in Hebrew), and the translation in English is not always accurate.

Besides i think, and I'm sorry if this offends anyone, that saying that - "the jews were waiting for one thing, but got another thing" is kind of trying to FORCE the Christhood of Jesus. Y-H-V-H promised through the OT ONE "version" of the coming of the Messiah. WHY would he all of a sudden change it, fully knowing that most of the Jews (his "chosen people") would not follow him?

I personally think that God is a tad smarter then that.

Thats why I dont personally believe that Jesus is *THE* Messiah spoken about in the OT and promised to Israel by God.

[Aine of the Fae]

See, I told ya Morr would get ya! :D

And as a Christian I can't quite figure out how the Christians decided that their prophecies were prophecies... A lot of them are snippets of scripture that just happen to describe Jesus, in a little way...

Heck, I bet I could find a bunch of snippets of scripture and say I'm Messiah if I really, really wanted to and had the time and was really bored....

[Tobias]

So, that's why there's still Judaism?? LoL!

Yes, I am aware that the prophecies fulfilled are a bit sketchy. It's also possible that some of the things conserning Jesus were exagerated or even made up to fit the prophecies.

If you look at modern day prophecy, we can see a pattern of it being very unrelyable. I've spent many years around Christians who do this. They seem to no more relyable than the Psychics or Notredamus.

So, unless anyone here is claiming special powers of accuracy were possessed by the Old Testiment prophets, what exactly is there left to look for in a Messiah? Couldn't the whole "Deliverer of Israel" have been a spiritual promise? To the Prophet, and to those who latter wrote down what they remembered of what he said, they could easily have mistaken a spiritual deliverer for what they wanted and thought they needed. Afterall, their holy books at the time all spoke of one deliverer after another who kicked foreign powers out of their land by the hand of God.

Because of Jesus, "all the nations of the Earth" have been blessed with the Jewish revelation of God. I've studied some of the message that Divinity put into the religious practices of the Jews, and it's good stuff! It's also mixed in with Man's traditions and needs sorting out, but remember too that the Jewish people have not always been willing subjects.

Jesus is a key factor in getting this truth out of the Jewish culture and into the hands of the rest of the known world. His death on the cross replaced the need for animal sacrafice in the hearts of the people. Considering the day and age, this was quite an advancement in religious thought.

[Morr]

Because of Jesus, "all the nations of the Earth" have been blessed with the Jewish revelation of God. I've studied some of the message that Divinity put into the religious practices of the Jews, and it's good stuff! It's also mixed in with Man's traditions and needs sorting out, but remember too that the Jewish people have not always been willing subjects.

Jesus is a key factor in getting this truth out of the Jewish culture and into the hands of the rest of the known world. His death on the cross replaced the need for animal sacrafice in the hearts of the people. Considering the day and age, this was quite an advancement in religious thought.


"Because of Jesus"?
who told you that? not the Jews.

How is Jesus the key factor to getting the trutho ut of the jewish culture to the rest of the nations, when Jesus himself said to first bring his teachings to the Jewish people, and only after they have heard it - only THEN to go to the gentiles... Jesus was NOT fond of gentiles at all - example - the gentile woman who begged Jesus for his healing her daughter and he was like "go away gentile woman".. and she was all like "even the dogs eat the left over of their master's dinner plate" or something to that effect...

True, the Jews have not always been willing subjects to the word of God - thats why theyve been kicked out of Israel into exile so many times... But I find it hard to believe that all knowing God who knows all too well how his chosen kids like to rebel and not subject to his word, would send off a messiah that totally doesnt fit their belief & concept of the messiah - only to make things worse and throw them off track even more.

[equinox2]

Tobias wrote:
Yes, I am aware that the prophecies fulfilled are a bit sketchy. It's also possible that some of the things conserning Jesus were exagerated or even made up to fit the prophecies.

Yeah. In fact, Tobias, we don’t have to speculate. We have hard evidence that Christians made up stories so they would seem to fulfill prophecy. One example is the fact that the Gospel of John changes the day that Jesus is killed from the day of Passover to the day before Passover. On the day before Passover, the lambs are killed, and whoever wrote the gospel of John (it wasn’t John of course) changed to day of Jesus’ death to fit his theological agenda. Just compare when they eat the Passover meal in Mk vs. John.

The virgin birth is also a clear addition – it isn’t in our oldest gospel, Mark, but appears in Luke and Matthew. It’s funny that the whole “virgin” “prophecy” is actually due to a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for “young girl”. The original Hebrew of Isaiah says nothing about a “virgin”. The birth in bethlehem also appears to be added. Everyone knew Jesus came from Nazareth (a little town in the sticks), while the scripture predicted that the messiah would come from bethlehem.

The other prophecies are usually little lines of text taken out of context or otherwise “stretched” to make them sound like a prediction, or sound like they fit Jesus. There are plenty of other examples too. Being that the old testament is HUGE (it makes up more than 80% of the Bible), there is a lot of text to search through to try to find something that can almost fit if you squint your eyes just right. See this, it is no wonder that nearly all the Jews couldn’t see Jesus as the Messiah. Paul acknowledges this in 1Cor1:23. Paul writes:

we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

Aine of the Fae wrote:
Heck, I bet I could find a bunch of snippets of scripture and say I'm Messiah if I really, really wanted to and had the time and was really bored.... I agree. All hail Aine of the Fae!!! :hailmol:

Tobias wrote:
His death on the cross replaced the need for animal sacrafice in the hearts of the people.

For a few Jews (mainly the Ebionites), that’s true. But for the majority of Jews it was the destruction of the sacred temple in Jerusalem around 70 CE. The law commanded that the animals were to be sacrificed in the temple, so no temple = no sacrifices. Jesus had nothing to do with it.

See ya-

[Tobias]

I'm not trying to attribute anything to Jesus that he doesn't deserve. It is true that he shunned the gentiles. But without Jesus, and subsequently his disciples (and Paul), would the Jew's knowlage of God ever had made it out of the Jewish culture? Or was Mohamad the messiah instead?

So Morr, what's your take on the whole thing? Are you waiting for a physical messiah to be born to save the nation of Israel, uproot their system of democracy, and establish a kingdom that will never end? Will he too be born of a virgin, or just a "young maiden"?

[Morr]

I'm not trying to attribute anything to Jesus that he doesn't deserve. It is true that he shunned the gentiles. But without Jesus, and subsequently his disciples (and Paul), would the Jew's knowlage of God ever had made it out of the Jewish culture? Or was Mohamad the messiah instead?

So Morr, what's your take on the whole thing? Are you waiting for a physical messiah to be born to save the nation of Israel, uproot their system of democracy, and establish a kingdom that will never end? Will he too be born of a virgin, or just a "young maiden"?


First of all,
why is the Jews' knowlege of god the only true knowlege of God? Why isnt the Pagan knowlege/understanding of God the true one? And I have a bone to pick with Paul, personally - so dont get me started.

Second,
I dont believe in the concept of the messiah. I think thats something that was made up to bring hope to people. I think that YOU can make your life a living hell or a living heaven. YOU have to work for it. YOU have to work on your connection with God. YOU have to work in order to be worthy of being PART of GOD.
Nobody can or will do it for you. Nobody will save your or bring the Kingdom of God to you. YOU have to do it by yourself. Each of us has to do it by ourselves and for ourselves.

[Tobias]

First of all, why is the Jews' knowlege of god the only true knowlege of God? Why isnt the Pagan knowlege/understanding of God the true one?

That does bring up some pretty deep questions. Did God set up the nation of Israel as a testiment of Himself, or did Divinity merely use that system of religion to express itself to the Jewish people? Part of me keeps leaning more and more towards the belief that Divinity adopts whatever face we humans put on it. But within boundaries though.

I know the Divine quite intimately as the Christian God. But is that only because I was raised Christian? What if I was raised in a different religion, would I know the same God but by a different name?

At any rate, my knowlage of spiritual matters is mostly within the Christian framework and terminology. That, IMO, makes me a Christian. I can't help it, everything I learned was taught to me in a Christian setting. I'm now having to go elswhere to continue my growth, and there's been a lot of learning of how others define some of the same things I've experienced. It's all very fun and enjoyable.

Jesus is another issue altogether. Without him it's hard to have Christ ianity. I guess it's just a matter of identity though. My whole culture and spiritual path (up untill recently) have both been "Christian", so I guess I shouldn't let a little thing like not believing in Jesus affect my identity as being a Christian.

[Morr]

in my opinion, Divinity can be found everywhere, within everything and everyone.

it shouldnt be defined by a book or two.

[Faeawyn]

Jesus didn't like non-Jewish people?? :sniffsnif:

[Morr]

Jesus didn't like non-Jewish people?? :sniffsnif:


He was your usual Jewish elitist :lol:
its not that he didnt like em.. he was just all like "the jews need to hear the word of God first... yada yada yada"... but its true.. at first he didnt want to heal that gentile lady's woman... untill she begged him...

i forget which gospel wrote about it...

[Morr]

ignore this.. my computer is wierd...

[equinox2]

Morr-

I think you are referring to Mt 15:22-28. :idea: Here is that story:

22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

(note that I added the underline to show the relevant part)

Hmmm…. What to make of it? Bread seems to mean “God's favor”, and children probably means “Jews”, while “dogs” seems to mean “gentiles”. One could either emphasize the fact that Jesus didn’t want to help a non-Jew, or one could emphasize that Jesus eventually did help a non-Jew.

To guess whether or not this probably actually happened, use the standard 3 criteria:

1. Is this story told in multiple places?
A. No. It is in Mark and Matthew. Since Matthew copied from Mark, this is one source, so it doesn’t get extra points for being multiply attested.

2. Is the story possible in light of the culture and time it is supposed to occur (contexturally credible).
A. Yes, there was plenty of Jewish concern to see non-Jews differently.

3. Is it a story that was likely to have been made up by early Christians, like the day of Jesus’ death in John, the birth in Bethlehem, or the virgin birth?
A. Perhaps. There were “Jewish only” Christians, such as the Ebionites, the Theodotans and those mentioned by Paul in Galatians. They would have wanted to portray Jesus this way. Plus we know that the Ebionites used the gospel of Matthew, where the story is found. On the other hand, Paul’s main point was to bring Christianity to the Gentiles, so the Roman Church and groups like the Marcionite Christians would certainly not have put this in.

Maybe one of them added verses 27 & 28, thus changing it from a clearly anti-gentile story to one more ambiguous? It is interesting to notice that "Luke" who wrote his gospel to portray Jesus as coming for the Gentiles, cuts this story out. He didn't copy it into his gospel even though we know he copied from Mark, which has the story. So it appears that Luke was trying to hide a story about Jesus that isn't friendly to non-Jews. That at least argues in favor of the story going back to Jesus.

So, on balance, looking at these three criteria and the story (which Matthew changed a bit when he copied it from Mark – just compare the accounts). I’m going to guess it is around 70% likely that Jesus really did say something like this. Just my very shaky guess – we really don’t have much information here because Jesus was in a Jewish area, and pretty much just talked with Jews. I know a lot of people prefer certainty, but oh well. Take care-

[Morr]

yup!
that was it :)
thanks!

[Faeawyn]

Well, I'm bummed :sadman:

[Morr]

Well, I'm bummed :sadman:

:hugz:
i still love you!!!

[Faeawyn]

Well...thank goodness for that....cuz it's pretty DAMN CLEAR THAT JESUS DIDN'T :bastard:

I feel better now :lol:

[Morr]

you have to understand though, that this was the way of thinking amongst the Jewish Community in First Century Judea... hell.. amongst the orthodox & conservative jewish dogmatic thought TODAY - gentiles will always be "below" Jews...
it is a disguisting way to view people - but thats the way it is.

its nothing personal.

[mara]

We were taught that while the normal Jewish people viewed gentiles as being below them, Jesus didn't. He used this situation as a lesson in having faith.

[The Oracle Of Delphi]

Mixing Christianity with Paganism? The idea actually isn't to foreign to me, infact i knew quite a few Mormons when I was in the army who practiced witchcraft and the mormon denomination itself actually encourages tem to explore and learn about other religions. Also down here in miami there's quite a few "Santero's" or practioners of Santeria if you prefer. Santeria is the mixing of Catholicism and african religious beliefs or some may call it voodoo, the idea of Santeria doesn't appeal to me much because it involves a great deal of animal sacrifice mostly chickens. hmm as for adapting the calling of the elements, I once did one for a friend of mine that assigned the 4 elements to leviathan, lucifer, baal, and satan,...then again my friend was a satanist so I'm guessing that may be out of the question. Well aine of the fae i say good for you for exploring your spiritual beliefs
see you around the forums,
Oracle

[equinox2]

Mara wrote:
We were taught that while the normal Jewish people viewed gentiles as being below them, Jesus didn't. He used this situation as a lesson in having faith.

Hi Mara-

Hmm, as a lesson to promote “having faith”…. Well, Mt copied and changed Mark’s account of this, so if we care what actually happened, we can ignore Mt and look just at Mark.

Mark never mentions faith in his story (Mk 7). Remember that the little “story titles” were added in modern times (like in the 19th and 20th centuries, so they only reflect what modern Christians wanted to say the stories were about). You might notice that those little story titles aren’t even in the king james version from the 16th century.

Mark’s story is:
a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil[8] spirit came and fell at his feet. 26The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27"First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
28"Yes, Lord," she replied, "but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."
29Then he told her, "For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."
30She went home and found her child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.

:hmmmmm: So, what did Jesus mean by this? He taught that God’s favor is for the Jews, and he called the gentiles “dogs”. The woman seems to be saying that even lowly gentiles can get some of God’s favor by accident from the scraps. Then Jesus says that he likes her REPLY, and that the demon is gone.

Regardless of whether Jesus cast out the demon or just knew it was gone, the question becomes “why did Jesus like the woman’s reply?” Was it because she joined Jesus in calling the gentiles “dogs”? Was it because she acknowledged that God’s favor was primarily for Jews & not gentiles? It’s hard to say which of these is true, but faith doesn’t appear to have anything to do with this story – which is probably why the word “faith” isn’t in the story until Matthew puts it in later.

I can see why modern Christians would pretend that this is a story about having faith – after all, having faith serves their interests. However, if we are trying to see what Jesus probably really said and did, then we will want to try to figure out what actually happened, not what modern Christians would like to have happened.

It doesn’t appear that Jesus was teaching about faith here. On the other hand, if we are going to make up parts of the story (like Matthew did), then why not just make up a completely different story that says whatever we want? We can even call one person in it “Jesus” if we like. :fpraise: :halohead:
Take care-

[mara]

Equinox-
It's really funny..even though I haven't been a Christian for 4 years I still find myself trying ( I'm not very good at it) defending what I learned as a baptist/pentacostal. I think that this is a very interesting subject and someday hope to study the bible with a more open mind. Thanks for giving me another way to look at scripture.

[Brinclhof]

Do any of you make offerings to either Jesus, God or the Holy spirit or to all three? If so what do usually use for offerings?

Second, since I have started down my Christo-pagan path I have not been going to church very regularly. I haven't had communion for a while and was wondering if anyone has done a private communion service or is that something you think has to be done in church?

:flowers: :bumpsmili

[Morr]

Do any of you make offerings to either Jesus, God or the Holy spirit or to all three? If so what do usually use for offerings?

Second, since I have started down my Christo-pagan path I have not been going to church very regularly. I haven't had communion for a while and was wondering if anyone has done a private communion service or is that something you think has to be done in church?

:flowers: :bumpsmili

Ummm, in general I have a white candle burning during the evening (when I'm in my room most of the time) on my altar.. Kind like a little thing to let them know I'm thinking of them. I've always done this actually. Its not really directed towards anyone specific (God, Jesus, Mary, etc).. But Its directed towards Divine.

As for communion correct me if im wrong - isnt that the Eucharist rite? The one where you get that bread & wine from the priest? If it is this, then how can you do it at home since the priest supposedly gets his "powers" to turn the bread & wine into Jesus' "body & blood" through the fact that he has become a priest, etc... Kinda like the fact that they can bless water.. (Gotta love the Catholic Church). I personally find this specific rite, kinda out there... But hey - if its your cup of tea, by all means - drink it!

[Aine of the Fae]

Ummm, in general I have a white candle burning during the evening (when I'm in my room most of the time) on my altar.. Kind like a little thing to let them know I'm thinking of them. I've always done this actually. Its not really directed towards anyone specific (God, Jesus, Mary, etc).. But Its directed towards Divine.

As for communion correct me if im wrong - isnt that the Eucharist rite? The one where you get that bread & wine from the priest? If it is this, then how can you do it at home since the priest supposedly gets his "powers" to turn the bread & wine into Jesus' "body & blood" through the fact that he has become a priest, etc... Kinda like the fact that they can bless water.. (Gotta love the Catholic Church). I personally find this specific rite, kinda out there... But hey - if its your cup of tea, by all means - drink it!

The Eucharist is Catholic, Protestant churches believe in the communion as a symbolic thing, not literally turning the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus. Protestant churches are much more symbolic that Catholic churches, where the baptism "literally" cleanses your sin, the Eucharist "literally" becomes the body and blood....

I have done a symbolic communion at home recently, because the church that I had been attending hadn't done communion in over six months (which really, really bothers me and is one of the reasons I left...) I'm now attending a United Methodist church, more structured than the Pentecostal, but much more open minded as well. (The Pastor recently recommended I read the Celestine Prophecies!!!! Already have, years ago... and I loved it!!) They have communion one Sunday a month, and it is entirely symbolic.

[Faeawyn]

I feel that I connect/commune with God every night thru prayer. So I guess I don't feel the need for a ritual communion. But then I was raised Baptist...and we didn't have a communion...so perhaps I'm not clear on what it's for :bigredblu

[Ron]

Ummm, may I make a statement? I'm now a believer in Jesus... just so that people know...

[Morr]

Ummm, may I make a statement? I'm now a believer in Jesus... just so that people know...


were you not a believer in him before?
what brought upon this change..?

[Isildae]

I was just thinking about the name, Jesus, and how it's been Anglicized from Yeshua. I was wondering what affect that has on Christianity. Names are powerful, and by using Jesus instead of the proper Yeshua, I wonder if that changes anything in the worship. Opinions please?

It probably doesn't make a difference, but I think its nicer to call him by his proper name "Yeshua' its more cultural, and for me atleast, Jesus has almost become a dirty word for all some people associate it with. But no one I know calls Jesus, Yeshua, and I mean come on, its such a beautiful name. Jesus can sound I don't know "harsh" when you say it, but Yeshua sounds so smooth, and soft, and also rather magickal.

I did a meditation to Jesus once, only I called him yeshua instead, and it had a very different feel to it. I don't know if that means anything relevant. :fpeek:

[Aine of the Fae]

It probably doesn't make a difference, but I think its nicer to call him by his proper name "Yeshua' its more cultural, and for me atleast, Jesus has almost become a dirty word for all some people associate it with. But no one I know calls Jesus, Yeshua, and I mean come on, its such a beautiful name. Jesus can sound I don't know "harsh" when you say it, but Yeshua sounds so smooth, and soft, and also rather magickal.

I did a meditation to Jesus once, only I called him yeshua instead, and it had a very different feel to it. I don't know if that means anything relevant. :fpeek:

Think of it this way:

My name is Gwynne. No matter what language, no matter what culture, my personal name is Gwynne. Osama bin Ladan (sp?) is Osama, no matter what culture, that's his personal name. We don't all him Sam or anything else, it's Osama. Personal names, at least to me, transcend language.

[Ron]

were you not a believer in him before?
what brought upon this change..?
In my earlier years I was a non-thesist, why because when I went to church I felt awful inside. Every Sunday night (after church) I would have awful dreams. At school I found myself surronded by bible pushers, "are you sure you're not lieing? do you swear it on the bible?".... so I just said the whole thing was a piece of poo (which it ain't)... then I became a polythesist and I began drawing circles WITHOUT any prior knowledge of witchcraft or witches... I had three deities the Mother who ruled in the dark and silver, who was the great one and her two sons; Corellon, who aided in creation; Deathy who brought death. I drew my rite in a tirangle with a circle surrounding... at the head of the circle was invoked the Mother, at the bottom left Correllon, at the bottom-right Deathy. Later I added a Father (who ruled in the light and gold) with two daughters, the first daughter was Cerrudywn tho I knew her as Kerry [of Knowledge], and the second Morgaine [of War]. All of this... then one day my father walked in on my practise and I had to explain my own created religion... then he took me to Jasper, Alberta (2500km from here!!) and I was initiated into my present tradition of old. My father is a Protestant Christian of the United Chruch, he never goes, he was raised in the same religion as I, but he never really looked into it. My mother was the daugther of a daughter of a Hindu, and my mother was the daughter of a muslim turned anglican and the same tradition as my father. My mother is duotheisitic (Lady and Lord) through her Yoga Master and practises of Ioveda (sp?), Satsan Yoga and Hatha -- soon to be Reiki as well I am teaching her lol... I'm a Reiki "Master" of the 7th generation (since yesterday!!) for those that are obsessed with Reiki lineage.... lol... my mother's father levitated and preformed card tricks like you wouldn't believe. He was a Taaren ("Prince") of my tradition but never exercised his rights as such. On his deathbed he told my mom and her family of the Recoming of Christ, who he will be, what he will look like, what he will say, and he identified his birthdate... believe it or not. He died in April 1996, after raising my mom's entire family anglican, he was a school teacher and principal in Guyana, South America. His death came after that of my paternal grandmother who was killed by the rising of the sun... she apparently stood and watch it rise every morning... one morning she, aged 97, smashed the paddlock on the window with her hands and opened it... as the sun rose she died.

I am a believer in Jesus, since only recently, because of my grandfather... when I heard that he had foretold my birth and foretold the recoming of Jesus... there was no way to deny it. I began reading the bible in sections and I found that the Lord Jesus taught good... I later read parts of the Quaran and found that it taught respect for all God's creations... I was soo fascinated because this tied in directly with the teachings of my tradition. Then the Teryn Fawr Vychan ap Aodh'r Caredig Fawr (like the Pope of my tradition -- I guess), my uncle, died. His will included a final order, that the people of my tradition REFORM to the old way that we used to practise 200 years ago. 200 years ago a very quanit person quote a book which we now refer to as the doomsday book, it used to be called the "Golden Book", it was the only book out of all the some 58.000+ stored on the Isle of Anglesey in Wales, that spoke against Jesus... condemning Jesus as a greedy God incarnate, who wanted to be worshiped as the only. The heir to the crown and the Breniniau (like Archbishiops) found that this book was not right. Our old ways and teachings are back, and new laws are in place to prevent such a stupidity from happening ever again... ie. none of the Royals may release a religious book without first the approval of the Royal Council ... which operates just as a socalist government.... it is very much entwined with the Teryn Fawr and the longest term is 10 cycles round the Sun (years)... then you get advisory to the council positions, but you don't get to vote (why am I explaining this?)...

Really I'm a believer because my mother's father has foreseeen the recoming.

[Faeawyn]

May I ask when he fortold it to be?

[dragenfly]

Do any of you make offerings to either Jesus, God or the Holy spirit or to all three? If so what do usually use for offerings?

Second, since I have started down my Christo-pagan path I have not been going to church very regularly. I haven't had communion for a while and was wondering if anyone has done a private communion service or is that something you think has to be done in church?

:flowers: :bumpsmili

Well I offer my soul God everynight I dont pray to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit. I offer my thanks, my devotion, and my forgiveness of others. I help those who need it when I can and I try to treat other kindly those are my offerings.

Communion should only be taken by those who are worthy. What I mean by that is that communion is the taking and drinking of the blood and flesh of Christ. It is said that you if you take communion and you have walked the path of GOD you can be sticken with illness and even death. It may be an old beliefe but he is my allmighty GOD so I temp him ya know. Communion is generally taken in churched because the bread and the wine "grape juice" are blessed for the communion but I dont see why you couldnt taken alone if you learn the blessing ritual or have your own. Its all in the meaning and the intent.

Just my oppinion by the way you will eventually gather your own oppinions and paths. Blessed Be 3x3x3 :chattin:

[Aine of the Fae]

The idea that you can only take communion if you are worthy is Catholic in origin. In reality, according to Biblical teaching, no one is worthy until they accept Christ, and then they need do nothing more to become "more" worthy.

[Ron]

May I ask when he fortold it to be?
This was foreseen several times between 1970 and 1991, when grandpa died... The new Jesus was born between 1985 and 1992. Nearer to 2021 he shall surface... that's all I can say... it's no more than the churches that believe in his recoming for 2021 will say.... infact that's all I know, the rest is in my mommy's will.

[Tobias]

This was foreseen several times between 1970 and 1991, when grandpa died... This person is to have been born 1985 years after Jesus' death... if we account for the 7 year drift that makes it 1992.

1985 yrs after Jesus' death? The calander is based off of his birthday, not the year he died. You'll need to add 33 years to the equation.

[Morr]

Charles.. I didnt really understand that whole big long explination and how is it that your grandfather foresaw the recoming of Jesus, etc..
but.. ok..

I'll brace myself in 2021

(surely I am going to hell if this is true, but it should be an interesting ride).

[Morr]

1985 yrs after Jesus' death? The calander is based off of his birthday, not the year he died. You'll need to add 33 years to the equation.


the christian calander is off by 4 years... meaning we technically should be around year 2000 now (since the birth of Christ)....

Christ died in 33ad....

1985
+33
______
2018

am i even doing this right?
(girl with dyscalculia here)

[Pol]

So that would make him surface when he's..three?

My cousin saw Christ at the foot of his bed once, and he told him when the rapture would be.

I don't buy it, and he's my own cousin. Pretty much because none of it is even based on the ideas of the Bible, and even then, if it was, the Bible says no one shall know.

[equinox2]

Charles wrote:
This was foreseen several times between 1970 and 1991, when grandpa died... This person is to have been born 1985 years after Jesus' death... if we account for the 7 year drift that makes it 1992. Nearer to 2021 he shall surface... that's all I can say... it's no more than the churches that believe in his recoming for 2021 will say.... infact that's all I know, the rest is in my mommy's will.

Ok, first of all, don’t forget that Jesus himself is supposed (according to Mark) to have said it would be within a few decades of when Jesus was around: Mk 13:30

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

(Apologists will argue that Jesus means “race”, but that doesn’t agree with either the term used nor with Jesus’ clearly apocalyptic teachings.)

And a few decades after Jesus, Paul believed wrote that he would be alive when Jesus returned:

2Thes 4:
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

And other Christians have been predicting the return of Jesus continually since then.

Writings we have show that in just about every generation for the past 1900 years, some Christians were predicting the end to come before they had died.

Jaochim of Fiore predicted it in the 12th century, and thousands believed him. The “great disappointment” of 1843 had tens of thousands of followers. Hal Lindsay wrote the book “the late great planet earth” in the 70’s and tens of thousands believed him. Thousands also believed the person who wrote the booklet titled “88 reasons the world will end in 1988” (all based on the bible).


The only safe prediction to make is that there will be Christians expecting the return of Jesus as long as there are Christians. Whether you expect the end in 2021 or not, I hope you live each day for itself, focusing on this life, not on some hypothetical event.

Oh yeah:

Pol wrote:
My cousin saw Christ at the foot of his bed once, and he told him when the rapture would be.
And I saw a giant turkey in my tent one night camping (I did!). I’m sure I hallucinated it, as any human can do when waking up. It’s actually a pretty common occurrence.

[Brinclhof]

So that would make him surface when he's..three?



The way I understand it from Revalations (and granted I don't understand revalations very well) christ will come directly from heaven in his full grown form and will not be reborn. so the prediction about him being born has problems.

the lord works in mysterious ways so I feel that we will not know when it is going to happen. You hear some one predict a date and most likely this is not when it will be.

just my opinion.

[Aine of the Fae]

The way I understand it from Revalations (and granted I don't understand revalations very well) christ will come directly from heaven in his full grown form and will not be reborn. so the prediction about him being born has problems.

the lord works in mysterious ways so I feel that we will not know when it is going to happen. You hear some one predict a date and most likely this is not when it will be.

just my opinion.

Also, the one that would be born is the anti-Christ. Not someone I'd want to associate with.

[Ron]

Can I just say that there is no "Christian" calendar... the freakishly old one you people (common people, unlike me, I'm wierd lol :p) use is called the Gegorian calendar it's Greek, I thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.

Ok, first of all, don’t forget that Jesus himself is supposed (according to Mark) to have said it would be within a few decades of when Jesus was around: Mk 13:30 What's to say he didn't? What's to say that he hasn't appeared several times in the last 2000 years??

Morr... I don't believe in hell... I don't believe in "satan'" ... lol... I believe that people spend their time in the afterlife in "hell" when they create their own hell on earth ie. by not believing in "god" in any of the three forms: Archdeity, the Great Spirt (in us all), and deity... to ignore all three forms is to live in hell, IMO and in that of the other followers of my tradition.

[Ron]

oh and too all you gobl (welsh for people) that have been bickering about the dates my grandaddy gave for the recoming... the surfacing is set for 2021, but the man's birth occurs between 1985 and 1993 during specific astal times, which I have not been given... if I ever find out I will tell you, unless this thread gets pushed to the 2nd page lol

[Aine of the Fae]

The Gregorian calendar is NOT Greek, it is Christian, based on the supposed year of Yeshua's birth.

[Ron]

Well duh, "Aine of the Fae", but the system of months which is by definition a calendar is Greek and Roman, as is the 7 day week, which is in addition Sematic....

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, first, I don't like being "duhed" nor do you need to put my name in quotes as if you think it's a joke. Secondly the spelling is Semitic not Sematic....

Now let's get technical here...

12 months dates to Egyptian times when the year was divided into 12 months of 30 days with 5 days added to the end. This caused a drift in the seasons, but it eventually worked itself out every 1490 years. A lot of time