Spiritual Risk - Is It Worth It?

[Whisper9999]

Back in the day when I was involved in the occult I had some frightening experiences, i.e. times when I believed I knew some nasty spiritual influences were taking over my life. And I know that some of you out there have had the same experience.

So here's my question for you: how do you think you can protect yourself from spirits that wish to deceive you? injure you? scare the $%^&* out of you? Do you really believe that you have control over what spirit contacts/controls you?

My experience says that spiritual forces do whatever they want and it has little to do with what you want. I guess what I'm asking is why do non-Christians take that inherent risk?

[djmixon]

I am a Christian with mystic leanings. . .so maybe my answer is not the one you are looking for. . .but. . .

I believe that an individual who calls on a higher being (god/goddess) for protection will receive the protection that diety can provide. . .granted whatever pre-requisites for protection are met (ie sacrifice, prayer, ritual, etc).

As for whether spirits only deceive, injure, or scare non-Christians. . .I would say that is not an accurate portrayal. I believe many Christians are deceived, injured and/or scared by spirits all the time. . .it has nothing to do with path, but rather it has to do with faith. . .

MHO
Donna

[Phoenix Blue]

My experience says that spiritual forces do whatever they want and it has little to do with what you want. I guess what I'm asking is why do non-Christians take that inherent risk?
What makes you think Christians have it any safer?

[Morr]

i personally dont think that any "evil spirits" or "demons" will come out and try to possess me..
i leave that for Hollywood (they have better special effects)..

And I agree with PB - even if say a more hostile spirit/astral being/Divine being came to you - Why do you think Christians have it any safer? You can call onto an Archangel and accidently end up with a totally different spirit. Maybe they come to you for a reason, to teach you rather then to posses you.

To be honest, I dont think that there are any spirits that care THAT much about human's needs or wants, to go ahead and manipulate them.

thats my personal take.

[Whisper9999]

What makes you think Christians have it any safer?

It's based on my experience of course, but I'm not trying to ram that down anyone's throat.

It's just that I often find that non-Christians have horrendous experiences with spiritual beings. Example: I was chatting with a guy on an investor web site who had gone through the same sort of OOB "manual" and I had gone through and had had similar bad experiences. It was obvious it disturbed him and yet he didn't want to admit it for some reason. I guess I'm just curious how non-Christians think about this - it's got to be an issue for some I would imagine...

[Whisper9999]

To be honest, I dont think that there are any spirits that care THAT much about human's needs or wants, to go ahead and manipulate them.

thats my personal take.

That's fine. I can only say that my personal experience was the opposite...

[Whisper9999]

I am a Christian with mystic leaningsMHO
Donna

Same here although I think our beliefs are a little different...

[Whisper9999]

I believe that an individual who calls on a higher being (god/goddess) for protection will receive the protection that diety can provide. . .granted whatever pre-requisites for protection are met (ie sacrifice, prayer, ritual, etc).

As for whether spirits only deceive, injure, or scare non-Christians. . .I would say that is not an accurate portrayal. I believe many Christians are deceived, injured and/or scared by spirits all the time. . .it has nothing to do with path, but rather it has to do with faith. . .

MHO
Donna

Absolutely. I agree with everything you said except for the god/goddess part. ;)

[Whisper9999]

A couple of you asked why I think Christians would have it any better. Well, that goes back to another thread that I have:

If there is a God and He made everything in this here marvelous universe, wouldn't it stand to reason that He would carry the Biggest Stick?

In other words, why trust and deal with angels, fallen or otherwise, when you can deal with the Source behind all of them?

[djmixon]

Absolutely. I agree with everything you said except for the god/goddess part. ;)
You realize that even Christianity has a feminine deity. . .right? And I am not even talking about Mary. . .who I do not categorize as a deity.

The Holy Spirit is the feminine aspect of the Triune God (Godhead). Even ancient Hebrew Texts recognize this. YHWH (God, Father, etc - the masculine aspect of the Godhead), Jesus (the human aspect of the Godhead) , and Parakleetos (Shekhina or the Holy Spirit - the feminine aspect of the Godhead).

Oh course, I suppose it depends on what branch of Christianity you practice as to how you view them. . .

MHO. . .

Donna (a reformed preacher's daughter)

[djmixon]

A couple of you asked why I think Christians would have it any better. Well, that goes back to another thread that I have:

If there is a God and He made everything in this here marvelous universe, wouldn't it stand to reason that He would carry the Biggest Stick?

In other words, why trust and deal with angels, fallen or otherwise, when you can deal with the Source behind all of them?
However, the name we associate with the great spirit is not what is important, but rather that we recognize the existence of one. . .(or not for the aethiests here).

Who is to say YHWH is the Source? It is a matter of faith that we accept this as truth. Where else, but the Bible and other Judeo-Christian texts is YHWH identified as the Source? The Quran calls Him Allah. . .does that mean Allah and YHWH are not the same?

What about how the Bible and many of its stories have been traced back to civilizations thousands of years older than Isreal? The story of Gilgamesh? The story of Marduk? Many of the stories of the Bible have their origins not with Isreal or the seed of Abraham, but with other civilizations and their gods.

Does that mean those stories are no longer valid? Does it mean then that the Bible is not valid?

Before you assume that your path is the only true path, please consider this. . .we all have a common goal. There are many paths to that goal. There are many names of those paths. What you consider to be truth or fiction has no real bearing on what others consdier to be truth or fiction within their path. Trying to enforce your path on others is not wise. Open mindedness means not only sharing your beliefs but also looking to learn from others and respecting those who disagree with you, even if it means your faith identifies their souls as lost. Just know that their faith does not. Which is more valid? Yours - which does not affect them. Or Theirs - which does.

Interesting take on things. . .sounds a lot like my brothers and father and uncles. . .all of whom are ministers in a very strict faith system... I just ask that you open your heart as well as your mind. I have learned a great deal from those here. I think you can as well.

Blessings
Donna

[DebLipp]

A couple of you asked why I think Christians would have it any better. Well, that goes back to another thread that I have:

If there is a God and He made everything in this here marvelous universe, wouldn't it stand to reason that He would carry the Biggest Stick?

In other words, why trust and deal with angels, fallen or otherwise, when you can deal with the Source behind all of them?

That's a lot of ifs, and the short answer is that I don't buy any of your suppositions. You base a theory on an unproven axiom that I don't accept. I don't believe there is a personal Creator God, I don't believe that such a hypothetical God would have a "Big Stick," or that a "Big Stick" is a good reason to worship any One, and I don't believe in angels, "fallen or otherwise."

I practice occultism to connect with the spiritual and natural forces of the universe. I deal with other spirits because there are other spirits and because they have the ability to help us. I take risks because life is full of risk. Falling in love is risky, having children is risky, making bold public statements is risky, writing books is risky—pretty much anything worthwhile is risky. I don't choose to stay home, lock my doors, be very, very safe, and hope & pray that someone with a big stick will protect me. I choose, instead, to engage with the world around me.

[Whisper9999]

You realize that even Christianity has a feminine deity. . .right? And I am not even talking about Mary. . .who I do not categorize as a deity.

The Holy Spirit is the feminine aspect of the Triune God (Godhead). Even ancient Hebrew Texts recognize this. YHWH (God, Father, etc - the masculine aspect of the Godhead), Jesus (the human aspect of the Godhead) , and Parakleetos (Shekhina or the Holy Spirit - the feminine aspect of the Godhead).

Oh course, I suppose it depends on what branch of Christianity you practice as to how you view them. . .

MHO. . .

Donna (a reformed preacher's daughter)

Ooh, Reformed no less...I'd be curious to hear how the ancient Hebrew supports the "feminine" aspect of the Godhead, i.e. Holy Spirit?

[Kaija]

regardless of path.. people can get in over their heads when dealing with spirits, entities, or.. even energies.. I do believe it's worth it though.. My first experience was rather rushed, and .. although we did really well, and had a decent outcome.. we could have gotten stuck with some pretty nasty energy later on.. I still believe I was right to try.. and it was very worth it..

[Aine of the Fae]

Ooh, Reformed no less...I'd be curious to hear how the ancient Hebrew supports the "feminine" aspect of the Godhead, i.e. Holy Spirit?

Sarcasm won't get you far on this board. And as for how the ancient Hebrew supports the "feminine aspect of the Godhead?" It's more apparent in the Hebrew than in the Christian scriptures. The idea COMES from the Hebrew. I'd look it up on my computer Bible, but that got lost when I reformatted my hard drive... However, there is at least one person on this forum who is not only familiar with the Old Testament, but can read it in Hebrew, and does understand the nuances that are lost in translation.

[Whisper9999]

However, the name we associate with the great spirit is not what is important, but rather that we recognize the existence of one. . .(or not for the aethiests here).

Who is to say YHWH is the Source? It is a matter of faith that we accept this as truth. Where else, but the Bible and other Judeo-Christian texts is YHWH identified as the Source? The Quran calls Him Allah. . .does that mean Allah and YHWH are not the same?

What about how the Bible and many of its stories have been traced back to civilizations thousands of years older than Isreal? The story of Gilgamesh? The story of Marduk? Many of the stories of the Bible have their origins not with Isreal or the seed of Abraham, but with other civilizations and their gods.

Does that mean those stories are no longer valid? Does it mean then that the Bible is not valid?

Before you assume that your path is the only true path, please consider this. . .we all have a common goal. There are many paths to that goal. There are many names of those paths. What you consider to be truth or fiction has no real bearing on what others consdier to be truth or fiction within their path. Trying to enforce your path on others is not wise. Open mindedness means not only sharing your beliefs but also looking to learn from others and respecting those who disagree with you, even if it means your faith identifies their souls as lost. Just know that their faith does not. Which is more valid? Yours - which does not affect them. Or Theirs - which does.

Interesting take on things. . .sounds a lot like my brothers and father and uncles. . .all of whom are ministers in a very strict faith system... I just ask that you open your heart as well as your mind. I have learned a great deal from those here. I think you can as well.

Blessings
Donna

I honestly believe that I can learn from others - I really do. I'm a little unique on this board because I am not a universalist. But keep in mind that I could be right too. ;) The one "mantra" of this board is that all paths lead to the same mountain top and that's fine, but everyone should recognize that there are potential inherent logical fallacies associated with this posiiton and it may not be correct. But I won't go there since I know that's considered prima facie around here...

It's interesting that you think I come from a big Christian family. That's definitely not the case. My father's side is strongly humanist and my Mom during my formative years was a marginal Christian although she's now much stronger. The rest of the family was likewise mostly heathen - if you'll pardon the expression - and marginal Christians until midlife in many cases...I just want to let you know I'm definitely not the "son of a preacher man"...

[Whisper9999]

Sarcasm won't get you far on this board. And as for how the ancient Hebrew supports the "feminine aspect of the Godhead?" It's more apparent in the Hebrew than in the Christian scriptures. The idea COMES from the Hebrew. I'd look it up on my computer Bible, but that got lost when I reformatted my hard drive... However, there is at least one person on this forum who is not only familiar with the Old Testament, but can read it in Hebrew, and does understand the nuances that are lost in translation.

Sorry! I was actually not being sarcastic - I promise! I actually have great respect for Reformed Theology. Sorry it came off the opposite of what I was saying!

[Whisper9999]

That's a lot of ifs, and the short answer is that I don't buy any of your suppositions. You base a theory on an unproven axiom that I don't accept. I don't believe there is a personal Creator God, I don't believe that such a hypothetical God would have a "Big Stick," or that a "Big Stick" is a good reason to worship any One, and I don't believe in angels, "fallen or otherwise."

I practice occultism to connect with the spiritual and natural forces of the universe. I deal with other spirits because there are other spirits and because they have the ability to help us. I take risks because life is full of risk. Falling in love is risky, having children is risky, making bold public statements is risky, writing books is risky—pretty much anything worthwhile is risky. I don't choose to stay home, lock my doors, be very, very safe, and hope & pray that someone with a big stick will protect me. I choose, instead, to engage with the world around me.

That's what I thought someone might say...it just seems to me from what I've seen that it's too risky. But of course everyone's got their own opinion...

[Raivynne]

So here's my question for you: how do you think you can protect yourself from spirits that wish to deceive you? injure you? scare the $%^&* out of you? Do you really believe that you have control over what spirit contacts/controls you?

My experience says that spiritual forces do whatever they want and it has little to do with what you want. I guess what I'm asking is why do non-Christians take that inherent risk?

Like Christians, non-Christians rely on their faith as well. Asking protection of the divine, and guidance often help a lot when "risks" are taken. If nobody took any risks, nobody would have any new experiences. My take on evil spirits and such is, if they're so evil and powerful, why bother with humans? This frail shell can carry only so much power, and when in comparison, we're so weak. And anyway, I believe they have their own agendas with eachother and unless you bother one purposely they won't bother you.

Example: I was chatting with a guy on an investor web site who had gone through the same sort of OOB "manual" and I had gone through and had had similar bad experiences. It was obvious it disturbed him and yet he didn't want to admit it for some reason. I guess I'm just curious how non-Christians think about this - it's got to be an issue for some I would imagine...

OOB experiences...basically what you expect to happen, WILL happen with those. You have to go into that with an open mind. The astral planes are EXTREMELY impressionable. If you go there expecting to meet a demon, then you with your mind will have created that being, and you will indeed meet one. If on the off chance you go in with an open mind and positive attitude and still meet a bad spirit, they can't hurt you. Just will yourself back to your body. I've had a few experiences with OOB and none of them have been bad, in fact they've been pretty nice. People I've talked to who have had some say they have had little if any problems, and if they did nothing bad ever happened, they just got shook up a bit.

[djmixon]

Ooh, Reformed no less...I'd be curious to hear how the ancient Hebrew supports the "feminine" aspect of the Godhead, i.e. Holy Spirit?
In Judaism, the Feminine Counterpart of Y-H-V-H, is Shekhina. She is similar to the Holy Spirit. Sort of like a muse or a spiritual inspiration. Now, since in the old days of the two Great Temples in Jerusalem, according to Judaism, the Shekhina lived within the Temples - The people of Israel (Kneset Israel) were considered to be one with the Shekhina, therefore, the people of Israel as a whole & their spirit/faith were considered to be the counterpart of Y-H-V-H. Its REALLY hard to explain if you've never studied Judaism, or if you dont understand Hebrew. - Morr post #4 at http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=765982&highlight=Shekhina#post765982


http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/shekhina.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1501/shekfil.html
http://www.wheeloftheyear.com/reference/shekhina.htm
http://www.city-net.com/~arianna/gaiashe.html
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~vcp2/hebrew.htm
http://groups.msn.com/GoddessAwareChristianWomen/godandhisshekhina.msnw
http://www.geocities.com/~bard_angel/judeochristiandeities.html
http://www.spiritbride.com/index1.html
http://www.koshertorah.com/T%20secret%20of%20mercy%20ABU.html
http://www.freep.com/news/metro/des7_20020207.htm
http://www.judaicaplus.com/Tzadikim/tz_viewer.cfm?page=azulai.htm

I could go on, but this will get you started. . .

Donna:fpeace:

[Whisper9999]

Like Christians, non-Christians rely on their faith as well. Asking protection of the divine, and guidance often help a lot when "risks" are taken. If nobody took any risks, nobody would have any new experiences. My take on evil spirits and such is, if they're so evil and powerful, why bother with humans? This frail shell can carry only so much power, and when in comparison, we're so weak. And anyway, I believe they have their own agendas with eachother and unless you bother one purposely they won't bother you.



OOB experiences...basically what you expect to happen, WILL happen with those. You have to go into that with an open mind. The astral planes are EXTREMELY impressionable. If you go there expecting to meet a demon, then you with your mind will have created that being, and you will indeed meet one. If on the off chance you go in with an open mind and positive attitude and still meet a bad spirit, they can't hurt you. Just will yourself back to your body. I've had a few experiences with OOB and none of them have been bad, in fact they've been pretty nice. People I've talked to who have had some say they have had little if any problems, and if they did nothing bad ever happened, they just got shook up a bit.

Well, that's fine - I'm glad nothing bad has happened of course. And I'm certainly not an expert in this area (and nor do I want to be as you might guess). But Robert Monroe, who is one of the New Age leaders in this arena and made it his life's work, went on many OOB's. He rarely had any bad experiences, but the ones he did have were absolutely terrifying. And this was the experience of that investor that I was talking about as well. That's about all I can say...I don't want to say too much more or I'll get accused of fear mongering...

[Whisper9999]

In Judaism, the Feminine Counterpart of Y-H-V-H, is Shekhina. She is similar to the Holy Spirit. Sort of like a muse or a spiritual inspiration. Now, since in the old days of the two Great Temples in Jerusalem, according to Judaism, the Shekhina lived within the Temples - The people of Israel (Kneset Israel) were considered to be one with the Shekhina, therefore, the people of Israel as a whole & their spirit/faith were considered to be the counterpart of Y-H-V-H. Its REALLY hard to explain if you've never studied Judaism, or if you dont understand Hebrew. - Morr post #4 at http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=765982&highlight=Shekhina#post765982


http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/shekhina.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1501/shekfil.html
http://www.wheeloftheyear.com/reference/shekhina.htm
http://www.city-net.com/~arianna/gaiashe.html
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~vcp2/hebrew.htm
http://groups.msn.com/GoddessAwareChristianWomen/godandhisshekhina.msnw
http://www.geocities.com/~bard_angel/judeochristiandeities.html
http://www.spiritbride.com/index1.html
http://www.koshertorah.com/T%20secret%20of%20mercy%20ABU.html
http://www.freep.com/news/metro/des7_20020207.htm
http://www.judaicaplus.com/Tzadikim/tz_viewer.cfm?page=azulai.htm

I could go on, but this will get you started. . .

Donna:fpeace:

I've read over the first couple links and I'm not seeing strong support here. For example, Ilil Arbel writes "The literature also calls her the "Holy Spirit" which, in Hebrew, is also a feminine form. The feminine nature of the Shekhina is so easy to establish in Hebrew, because the gender of the subject plays an important role in the sentence structure. In English, you can say "The Glorious Shekhina returned to bless us" without mentioning gender. In Hebrew, both verbs and adjectives have a male or female forms, and many names suggest gender to anyone who understands the language. The simple sentence above indicates three times that the Shekhina is female, and the fact sinks easily into the consciousness of the reader. "

I'm the kind of person who needs to see an example written above the Interlinear. I find it hard to believe that this really is the case, but I'll browse through the rest of the links and keep an open mind.

[djmixon]

I don't want to say too much more or I'll get accused of fear mongering...
I bet you could guess I have had a few experiences with the "darker" side myself. Some of those were enough to make me soil myself. . . My ex was involved in a darker energy and called all kinds of things to him. . .and to me and my children. . .so getting rid of dark energy is a calling, you might say. There are many here who helped me understand the ins and outs of cleansings. If you ask, I bet they would offer their assistance and knowledge to you as well. . .

As for you being from a big religious family. . .no. . .I didn't think that. I am from a HUGE religions family. Some of the ideas you stated sound familiar to what I hear from them. Although they would have a cow if they knew I questioned things like I do.

Ah well. . . oh, and welcome by the way. .just realized you are new. . .

Donna

[DebLipp]

That's what I thought someone might say...it just seems to me from what I've seen that it's too risky. But of course everyone's got their own opinion...

It might be interesting for you, if you're actually interested in this is as a life-issue, to ask the experience of older occultists like myself. I mean, teens dabble. Not everyone who is now a teen occultist will become an adult occultist. Some will find the risks make them uncomfortable, and many will find the path just isn't for them. "Why take the risk" is not that fascinating a question for people who have only just begun to take that risk. Or, it may be a fascinating question, but the answers may not be informative.

Whereas I have been an occultist for over 22 years. So I can speak about risk and benefit from a real foundation. I also know many (many!) people who have been in the occult for similar or longer periods of time. I think if you're actually interested in how one deals with risk in a magical life (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, because some of your questions seem provocative for reasons other than mere personal interest), then you might seek out information from people who have been doing it for a decade or more and see what their experience is.

When I say that the risks are no greater than the risk of a broken heart, and that they are faced for similar rewards, I know whereof I speak. Been there, done that. And, just as with love, got smarter and wiser in the process—which is itself one of the benefits.

You also seem assume that people who are occultists here might be Christian if only they left the occult. I certainly know a number of people who think I should "go back to the church." I assure you that I would never be Christian, and never have been Christian.

[Whisper9999]

Okay I read the WheeloftheYear link and it stated: "(Shekhina is a feminine word in Hebrew.)" I just wish they would get a little more specific. It just strikes me as odd that I've never heard about it...

I mean, coming from my standpoint, God CREATED male and female, so in a way God is above male and female if you know what I mean. I think those are approximations to aspects of His character of course.

[Theres]

So here's my question for you: how do you think you can protect yourself from spirits that wish to deceive you?

not applicable.

injure you?

not applicable.

scare the $%^&* out of you?

this i have experienced, but it was my own ignorance and fear that scared me. that and i truly believe that all the worthwhile lessons fit this category. so i guess my answer would be "wow, that was scarey, but i'm the better for it."

Do you really believe that you have control over what spirit contacts/controls you?

to a degree, yes. at least i've never had any substantial contact with any deity that i wasn't open to.

I guess what I'm asking is why do non-Christians take that inherent risk?

why do non-Pagans?

[djmixon]

Here is something from Sacred Texts

http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.sacred-texts.com&q=Shekhina&sitesearch=www.sacred-texts.com&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3 A336699%3BALC%3A000000%3BT%3A0000FF%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en

It is a search, so you may have to copy and paste the entire link

[DebLipp]

I've read over the first couple links and I'm not seeing strong support here. For example, Ilil Arbel writes "The literature also calls her the "Holy Spirit" which, in Hebrew, is also a feminine form. The feminine nature of the Shekhina is so easy to establish in Hebrew, because the gender of the subject plays an important role in the sentence structure. In English, you can say "The Glorious Shekhina returned to bless us" without mentioning gender. In Hebrew, both verbs and adjectives have a male or female forms, and many names suggest gender to anyone who understands the language. The simple sentence above indicates three times that the Shekhina is female, and the fact sinks easily into the consciousness of the reader. "

I'm the kind of person who needs to see an example written above the Interlinear. I find it hard to believe that this really is the case, but I'll browse through the rest of the links and keep an open mind.

Hebrew is full of feminine deity. Jewish ritual also venerates the Sabbath bride in the body of the female head of household. Veneration of the female as embodiment of God's will and the Sabbath is an essential part of mystical Orthodox Judaism.

I have no idea what the "Interlinear" is, but you shouldn't dismiss accurate information about Judaism from people who provide lots and lots of references!

[Whisper9999]

It might be interesting for you, if you're actually interested in this is as a life-issue, to ask the experience of older occultists like myself. I mean, teens dabble. Not everyone who is now a teen occultist will become an adult occultist. Some will find the risks make them uncomfortable, and many will find the path just isn't for them. "Why take the risk" is not that fascinating a question for people who have only just begun to take that risk. Or, it may be a fascinating question, but the answers may not be informative.

Whereas I have been an occultist for over 22 years. So I can speak about risk and benefit from a real foundation. I also know many (many!) people who have been in the occult for similar or longer periods of time. I think if you're actually interested in how one deals with risk in a magical life (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, because some of your questions seem provocative for reasons other than mere personal interest), then you might seek out information from people who have been doing it for a decade or more and see what their experience is.

When I say that the risks are no greater than the risk of a broken heart, and that they are faced for similar rewards, I know whereof I speak. Been there, done that. And, just as with love, got smarter and wiser in the process—which is itself one of the benefits.

You also seem assume that people who are occultists here might be Christian if only they left the occult. I certainly know a number of people who think I should "go back to the church." I assure you that I would never be Christian, and never have been Christian.

To be honest, I'm just genuinely interested in how people think. For the record I don't think for a minute that I'm going to post something here and someone is going to say, "Oh, I think I'll convert and become an evangelical Christian."

I was just really putting my finger up to the wind to see which way the wind was blowing. I know you guys probably believe me, but I have known people who have been possessed (by my definition of course), but I think you would call them "continual channelers" of course. In other word, I would guess that you would think it is okay to be possessed in a sense. Of course, that doesn't sit well with me coming from my paradigm.

And I knew for example one student who was heavily into DND and creating other worlds and she used to just "shake" - it was bizarre. Now I know, or I think I know, what you're thinking, "So what? That's anecdotal and proves nothing." And you're right of course. I'm just saying that I and some of those that I've discussed things with over the years have not had quite the rosy picture with the occult that you're bringing up. But of course I recognize that you've had 22 years with it...

Anyway, I just genuinely enjoy a discussion and like to hear where people are coming from. And, of course, I like to make people think as well. I'll bet you wouldn't mind doing that a little yourself? ;)

[Whisper9999]

Hebrew is full of feminine deity. Jewish ritual also venerates the Sabbath bride in the body of the female head of household. Veneration of the female as embodiment of God's will and the Sabbath is an essential part of mystical Orthodox Judaism.

I have no idea what the "Interlinear" is, but you shouldn't dismiss accurate information about Judaism from people who provide lots and lots of references!

I'm not dismissing it - I promise. In fact, I find it interesting. I just like to see very detailed information and I haven't seen that yet. But I'll keep reading...

One semi-feminine reference I can think of btw on my own is how the Spirit "hovers" over the waters. From what I remember you can translate that "brood" like a "mother with her chicks" if you will...

[Whisper9999]

Here is something from Sacred Texts

http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.sacred-texts.com&q=Shekhina&sitesearch=www.sacred-texts.com&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3 A336699%3BALC%3A000000%3BT%3A0000FF%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en

It is a search, so you may have to copy and paste the entire link

What are the Sacred Texts? Not familiar with them...

[djmixon]

It is an internet repository of sacred texts from the world's religions. www.sacredtexts.com (http://www.sacredtexts.com)

It is a very good source

[Whisper9999]

In Judaism, ......
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/shekhina.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1501/shekfil.html
http://www.wheeloftheyear.com/reference/shekhina.htm
http://www.city-net.com/~arianna/gaiashe.html
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~vcp2/hebrew.htm
http://groups.msn.com/GoddessAwareChristianWomen/godandhisshekhina.msnw
http://www.geocities.com/~bard_angel/judeochristiandeities.html
http://www.spiritbride.com/index1.html
http://www.koshertorah.com/T%20secret%20of%20mercy%20ABU.html
http://www.freep.com/news/metro/des7_20020207.htm
http://www.judaicaplus.com/Tzadikim/tz_viewer.cfm?page=azulai.htm

Donna:fpeace:

Well, first of all I want to point out that the majority of the references use Kabbalistic writings as sources which of course won't be accepted by someone annoying like me. But the following was interesting:

As stated in Proverbs: "Happy is the one who finds wisdom (Shekhina)
and the one who gets understanding... She is more precious than rubles...
Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand are richer and honor.
Her ways are ways of pleasure, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life
to those who lay hold to her; and happy are those who hold her fast".

But, again, it looks to me as if they are primarily relying on references to certain Talmudic materials and the subsequent Kabbalistic writings that were based on them. Of course, coming from my standpoint, those are interesting historical references but nothing more than that.

Notice that the Biblical Tetragrammaton "theory" is based on the Kabbalah as well. In contrast, the top of the buffalo reference clearly states the following:

"God is not a body, nor can bodily attributes be ascribed to him, and He has no likeness at all.” Yet one factor, a linguistic one, defied all theological repugnance to the attribution of bodily qualities to God. It is in the nature of the Hebrew language that every noun has either the masculine or the feminine gender (except a very few which can take either). The two Biblical names of God, Yahweh (pronounced, out of reverence for its great holiness, as “Adonai” and usually translated as “the Lord”) and Elhoim (or briefly, El, translated as “God”), are masculine. When a pronoun is used to refer to God, it is the masculine “He”; when a verb describes that He did something or when an adjective qualified Him, they appear in the masculine form (in Hebrew there are male and female forms for verbs and adjectives). Thus every verbal statement about God conveyed the idea that He was masculine. Most people, of course, never stopped to think about this, but every Hebrew-speaking individual from early childhood was imbued with the idea that God was a masculine deity. "

To me it sounds like if you're going strictly by the Bible, you're going to run into masculinity virtually across the board.

The one exception appears to be in "The Wisdom of Solomon". But of course, this only carries so much weight with me because it is apocryphal. But it is interesting nonetheless.

And, it is strange to me that some of your references quote the Asherah as being an acceptable apologetic when the Asherah was so strongly spoken against in the Old Testament. Example: "Patai points to inscriptions on large storage jars found in the northeast Sinai dating back to around 800 BC. They refer to "Yahweh and his Asherah." Yahweh is the Hebrew masculine God; Asherah was the Canaanite name for the Mother Goddess." This actually proves the opposite of what you are trying to show.

But that same author did make an interesting point here. She wrote: "But the names of the Shekhina (God's presence), the Holy Spirit and the Word are grammatically feminine, lending credence to the idea that the Judeo-Christian God had both male and female dimensions." Again, I just wish she gave more specifics...

[Whisper9999]

not applicable.

not applicable.


Did you say "not applicable" because of what you wrote below - that is it's never been an issue for you?

[samiaminsane]

I guess what I'm asking is why do non-Christians take that inherent risk?

I don't believe I risk anything more than anyone else does. I don't have control over the spirits I contact just as much as they don't have control over me.

[Theres]

Did you say "not applicable" because of what you wrote below - that is it's never been an issue for you?

nothing in my experience (and it is quite extensive) would lead me to think that any deity would deliberately "deceive" me or "hurt" me. why would they? the only pain that has ocurred was invariably due to my own misconceptions or hubris. i just don't buy into the idea of spiteful Gods.

i'm not saying that i haven't had any harsh experiences... quite the contrary, in fact. but i've had these same experiences with parents, teachers, etc, and their motives were not to be deceptive ot hurtful either. more in the line of 'tough love'.

hence - NA.

[Whisper9999]

nothing in my experience (and it is quite extensive) would lead me to think that any deity would deliberately "deceive" me or "hurt" me. why would they? the only pain that has ocurred was invariably due to my own misconceptions or hubris. i just don't buy into the idea of spiteful Gods.

i'm not saying that i haven't had any harsh experiences... quite the contrary, in fact. but i've had these same experiences with parents, teachers, etc, and their motives were not to be deceptive ot hurtful either. more in the line of 'tough love'.

hence - NA.

Okay, I see where you and I believe everyone else is coming from...

[Whisper9999]

nothing in my experience (and it is quite extensive) would lead me to think that any deity would deliberately "deceive" me or "hurt" me. why would they?

Well, I won't go there...Have a good night!

[Theres]

Okay, I see where you and I believe everyone else is coming from...

not quite sure what that means. :confused:

Well, I won't go there...Have a good night!

why not? :devil:

[Whisper9999]

not quite sure what that means. :confused:



Just meant that I look at things differently based on my beliefs and experiences and that I enjoyed the discussion...thx again...

[Tobias]

Whisper,

"Why would anyone take the risk" you asked? How about you? Why do you take the risk of asking questions here on a forum full of people who are obviously rebelious against God and therefore full of misinformation?

Many, many Christians would wonder what you are doing here. You are taking big risks of being infected with the same lies that are keeping the rest of us bound.

But if ignorence and a sheltered existence is the key to a successful lifelong Christian walk, how can you be sure THAT is not where the deciet lies? Isn't there risks involved in being complacent and NOT seeking the truth? Just because everyone else around you thinks they know the way to heaven doesn't mean that they really do. Especially when one of the conditions is to NOT go checking out other people's religions because so many people have done that and left Christianity when what they find out there sounds so reasonable.

So really, what's the greater risk? Looking out there for yourself to see where you can find the truth, or trusting some people who say that all the truth you need to know was put by God into the Bible?

[Morr]

WOW
i post one post, then go to sleep, and I come back and theres like 40 new posts!
And I was even mentioned!!! *blush*

Anyways, seriously now, Whisper9999 -

Just because you are "not familiar with it" or dont accept Talmudic or Kabbalhistic writings doesnt mean that you are right and that all of the above is wrong -

As a fluently speaking Hebrew person, who has lived in Israel a majority of her life and studied the different aspects of the Old Testament inside out - Believe me -
Shekhina IS the female aspect of God
Even the Jews themselves view her as the female counterpart/side of God. She is seperate from him, but not the way the Pagan Goddesses are seperated from the Pagan Gods. She is EXACTLY like the Holy Spirit - Which is also viewed as the Feminine part of the Holy Trinity - The muse (as someone mentioned).

Y-H-V-H & Shekhina are viewed as the mother & father of Israel.
Y-H-V-H is the jealous, angry and merciful Father, while Shekhina is the comforting, loving and caring Mother.
(i know I've mentioned this before on these boards).

This concept is NOT originally from Talmud or Kabbalah. Its strictly from the Old Testament, and if we want to go into details here then - Jesus being a Jew - probably believed in Shekhina as well as Y-H-V-H as well.

Again - Its *NOT* like in Paganism where Shekhina is a totally different Diety. Shekhina is the spirit & inspiration & wisdome & motherly love that resides down within the Jewish community - within its heart (the two great temples of Jerusalem). Within the temples it was said that "God Lived There", it wasnt Y-H-V-H, it was Shekhina.

She is exactly like the Holy Spirit is.
The way Christians view the Holy Spirit - as able to enter them and inspire them, and comfort them, and hear their prayers, etc - Is the SAME way Jews view Shekhina.
Neither is seperate completely from God, but both are feminine and play a distinct role in Divinity.

[Djiril]

And I knew for example one student who was heavily into DND and creating other worlds and she used to just "shake" - it was bizarre.
What is DND? :huh:

[Tobias]

Morr,

Wouldn't you say though that this whole Shekinah buisiness is a Jewish belief rather than a Christian one? I've never run into it before in Christianity.

Even within Christianity you have some who pray to Mary, and others who think that doing so is commiting Idolatry and breaking one of the Ten Commandments. There are many things in the Bible that no one pays any attention to. Who is the female called "Wisdom" in the book of Proverbs? If it isn't God (because He's male), then is it the Holy Spirit, or another member of the Trinity that the councel of Nicea missed? (That would make it what, a Quadrinity?)

[Tobias]

What is DND? :huh:

Mabey D&D -- Dungeons and Dragons?

[Morr]

Morr,

Wouldn't you say though that this whole Shekinah buisiness is a Jewish belief rather than a Christian one? I've never run into it before in Christianity.

Even within Christianity you have some who pray to Mary, and others who think that doing so is commiting Idolatry and breaking one of the Ten Commandments. There are many things in the Bible that no one pays any attention to. Who is the female called "Wisdom" in the book of Proverbs? If it isn't God (because He's male), then is it the Holy Spirit, or another member of the Trinity that the councel of Nicea missed? (That would make it what, a Quadrinity?)


Actually, I was replying to the debate that was sparked regarding who and what is Shekhina.
I just gave the background & basic stuff about her.

I think when it comes to Christianity, Shekhina is parallel to The Holy Spirit.
They are both parallel in the sense that they are Feminine and also are viewed as having the same Divine Roles.
"Wisdom" would be Shekhina to Jews, but would be The Holy Spirit to Christians.

You dont have to believe in it, I was just making a theological/historical point.

[Sleet]

It's just that I often find that non-Christians have horrendous experiences with spiritual beings.

If I may be blunt for a moment, I did have an experience like this - but it was with the Christian God.

[docdoo]

Whisper,

I will, in fact, agree with you that there are inherent risks associated with becoming informed. In my experience, once a person has 'found' the ability to manipulate energy they are no longer able to 'fly under the radar'. Yes, there ARE risks involved with energy work, OBE's and other 'Mystical' type behaviours. There are things out there that aren't friendly, safe and happy. However, having said that, it's also ridiculous to go out into the savannah for the purpose of studying lions and NOT have some sort of protection with you.

The simple fact of the matter is that any entity that I have ever encountered can be shielded/warded against. The channelers or 'possessed people' you mentioned are people whos knowledge of shielding is so minimul as to be nonexistent, thus they make an easy target. A knowledgable, well-equipped channeler never runs into issues like this. The type of things you've described is akin to someone diving into the ocean without knowing how to swim, and then being surprised when they drown.

Ignorance is bliss, unfortunatly when we choose to lie beneath a cloak of ignorance we never get the opportunity to learn. If early explorers had been too scared to learn about gorillas or lions then we'd never have the wonderful knowledge base that we do now. If their mindset had been as yours seems to be then half of the world would have remained unexplored. So, while there are inherent risks associated with the activities you describe the risks are negated to negligable levels when proper care is taken to protect oneself.

Til next time,

[DebLipp]

this i have experienced, but it was my own ignorance and fear that scared me. that and i truly believe that all the worthwhile lessons fit this category. so i guess my answer would be "wow, that was scarey, but i'm the better for it."


You make a good point here. Most of what is scary "out there" is actually inside us. And that answers, in part, the question of "why face it?" The only way to deal with, and grow beyond, our inner turmoil and screwed-up-ness, whatever it happens to be, is to face it. I don't encourage Paganism or occultism for anyone who doesn't chose it, but I do believe that "the unexamined life is not worth living" and I sometimes wonder why so many choose to live unexamined lives.

[Ladyvi]

my mom is a practicing witch. or was . she changes her religion so much cant keep track . last i talked to her she was a devout islam. go figure. been 5 years since.

anyway during her witching period. she did let loose something fore i was followed and harrassed on a daily basis. later in life when i was older and going down my own path. i was attacked by something very dark. blacker than black . red eyes. somewhat humanoid shape. it was on top of me. i couldnt breath or speak. how did i get away. sheer will. i jerked myself up and threw it off of me. it left seeing as how i wasnt an easy target.

bottom line . how do you defeat these things. your will and your light is the key. in surrendering your will. in surrendering your light. doing so your bring your own appocalypse.

[aluokaloo]

Well, this is my take, just like in life you have good experiences and frightening ones. Lets say you got beat up at a local park by the school bullies. Does that stop you from going outside completely? Take steps to protect yourself. I'm not exactly sure what you practice, or what you are referring too, but there are always things that can help, butning protective incenses, asking your Deity to help protect you on your journey, rubbing yourself with certain oils etc.
I'm not sure if this will help you at all, but I hope it helped anyways.

[aluokaloo]

That's a lot of ifs, and the short answer is that I don't buy any of your suppositions. You base a theory on an unproven axiom that I don't accept. I don't believe there is a personal Creator God, I don't believe that such a hypothetical God would have a "Big Stick," or that a "Big Stick" is a good reason to worship any One, and I don't believe in angels, "fallen or otherwise."

I practice occultism to connect with the spiritual and natural forces of the universe. I deal with other spirits because there are other spirits and because they have the ability to help us. I take risks because life is full of risk. Falling in love is risky, having children is risky, making bold public statements is risky, writing books is risky—pretty much anything worthwhile is risky. I don't choose to stay home, lock my doors, be very, very safe, and hope & pray that someone with a big stick will protect me. I choose, instead, to engage with the world around me.


with or without your big stick? :lol:

[Whisper9999]

Whisper,

"Why would anyone take the risk" you asked? How about you? Why do you take the risk of asking questions here on a forum full of people who are obviously rebelious against God and therefore full of misinformation?

Many, many Christians would wonder what you are doing here. You are taking big risks of being infected with the same lies that are keeping the rest of us bound.

But if ignorence and a sheltered existence is the key to a successful lifelong Christian walk, how can you be sure THAT is not where the deciet lies? Isn't there risks involved in being complacent and NOT seeking the truth? Just because everyone else around you thinks they know the way to heaven doesn't mean that they really do. Especially when one of the conditions is to NOT go checking out other people's religions because so many people have done that and left Christianity when what they find out there sounds so reasonable.

So really, what's the greater risk? Looking out there for yourself to see where you can find the truth, or trusting some people who say that all the truth you need to know was put by God into the Bible?

Well, you're getting into a much larger topic with what you wrote here. I was essentially asking, "Why would you deliberately contact entities over which you have little to no control?"

I guess I will answer your question though that I have my definite reasons for being a Christian, but I don't think it's appropriate for me to go into that on this site.

[Whisper9999]

WOW
i post one post, then go to sleep, and I come back and theres like 40 new posts!
And I was even mentioned!!! *blush*

Anyways, seriously now, Whisper9999 -

Just because you are "not familiar with it" or dont accept Talmudic or Kabbalhistic writings doesnt mean that you are right and that all of the above is wrong -

As a fluently speaking Hebrew person, who has lived in Israel a majority of her life and studied the different aspects of the Old Testament inside out - Believe me -
Shekhina IS the female aspect of God
Even the Jews themselves view her as the female counterpart/side of God. She is seperate from him, but not the way the Pagan Goddesses are seperated from the Pagan Gods. She is EXACTLY like the Holy Spirit - Which is also viewed as the Feminine part of the Holy Trinity - The muse (as someone mentioned).

Y-H-V-H & Shekhina are viewed as the mother & father of Israel.
Y-H-V-H is the jealous, angry and merciful Father, while Shekhina is the comforting, loving and caring Mother.
(i know I've mentioned this before on these boards).

This concept is NOT originally from Talmud or Kabbalah. Its strictly from the Old Testament, and if we want to go into details here then - Jesus being a Jew - probably believed in Shekhina as well as Y-H-V-H as well.

Again - Its *NOT* like in Paganism where Shekhina is a totally different Diety. Shekhina is the spirit & inspiration & wisdome & motherly love that resides down within the Jewish community - within its heart (the two great temples of Jerusalem). Within the temples it was said that "God Lived There", it wasnt Y-H-V-H, it was Shekhina.

She is exactly like the Holy Spirit is.
The way Christians view the Holy Spirit - as able to enter them and inspire them, and comfort them, and hear their prayers, etc - Is the SAME way Jews view Shekhina.
Neither is seperate completely from God, but both are feminine and play a distinct role in Divinity.

I know it's annoying when you've lived and worked with something so long that it's patently obvious and the other person doesn't seem to grasp it. Here's what I'm missing: what is it about the word Shekhina that makes it feminine in Hebrew? I'm sorry to be annoying, but I'm one of those peoples that has to know the details in order to have an "Aha!" moment. In other words, I know in Spanish if the word is preceded by 'la', then it's feminine. What is the Hebrew equivalent that's taking place here with the word Shekhina?

[MarinaSulis]

Like attracts like.

[Whisper9999]

Whisper,

I will, in fact, agree with you that there are inherent risks associated with becoming informed. In my experience, once a person has 'found' the ability to manipulate energy they are no longer able to 'fly under the radar'. Yes, there ARE risks involved with energy work, OBE's and other 'Mystical' type behaviours. There are things out there that aren't friendly, safe and happy. However, having said that, it's also ridiculous to go out into the savannah for the purpose of studying lions and NOT have some sort of protection with you.

The simple fact of the matter is that any entity that I have ever encountered can be shielded/warded against. The channelers or 'possessed people' you mentioned are people whos knowledge of shielding is so minimul as to be nonexistent, thus they make an easy target. A knowledgable, well-equipped channeler never runs into issues like this. The type of things you've described is akin to someone diving into the ocean without knowing how to swim, and then being surprised when they drown.

Ignorance is bliss, unfortunatly when we choose to lie beneath a cloak of ignorance we never get the opportunity to learn. If early explorers had been too scared to learn about gorillas or lions then we'd never have the wonderful knowledge base that we do now. If their mindset had been as yours seems to be then half of the world would have remained unexplored. So, while there are inherent risks associated with the activities you describe the risks are negated to negligable levels when proper care is taken to protect oneself.

Til next time,

I appreciate your general sense of adventure, but to be more direct: how do you feel that you can possibly protect or "shield" yourself from entities that are clearly much more spiritually powerful than yourself. In fact, how can you even control what entities you meet along the way? And, going on with that, how do you know you can trust such an entity? Clearly, these are ancient, highly intelligent beings. If they were deceptive, how would you be able to discern?

[Whisper9999]

You make a good point here. Most of what is scary "out there" is actually inside us. And that answers, in part, the question of "why face it?" The only way to deal with, and grow beyond, our inner turmoil and screwed-up-ness, whatever it happens to be, is to face it. I don't encourage Paganism or occultism for anyone who doesn't chose it, but I do believe that "the unexamined life is not worth living" and I sometimes wonder why so many choose to live unexamined lives.

I would agree that what is in our hearts can be the most sinister...

[Whisper9999]

my mom is a practicing witch. or was . she changes her religion so much cant keep track . last i talked to her she was a devout islam. go figure. been 5 years since.

anyway during her witching period. she did let loose something fore i was followed and harrassed on a daily basis. later in life when i was older and going down my own path. i was attacked by something very dark. blacker than black . red eyes. somewhat humanoid shape. it was on top of me. i couldnt breath or speak. how did i get away. sheer will. i jerked myself up and threw it off of me. it left seeing as how i wasnt an easy target.

bottom line . how do you defeat these things. your will and your light is the key. in surrendering your will. in surrendering your light. doing so your bring your own appocalypse.

Thx for being honest.

For some reason this story brought back the memory of a time I went to a community theatre play. I was sitting in the audience and I instantly felt myself going into a "trance" like back in my occult days. This was completely unprovoked and I was not thinking anything spiritual at the time. But I "knew" there was something evil around and, to use Christian terminology, rebuked it and the attack subsided.

[Whisper9999]

Well, this is my take, just like in life you have good experiences and frightening ones. Lets say you got beat up at a local park by the school bullies. Does that stop you from going outside completely? Take steps to protect yourself. I'm not exactly sure what you practice, or what you are referring too, but there are always things that can help, butning protective incenses, asking your Deity to help protect you on your journey, rubbing yourself with certain oils etc.
I'm not sure if this will help you at all, but I hope it helped anyways.

I'm not trying to be overly inflammatory, but I am seriously wondering how you think incenses/oils could protect one against a malevolent and/or deceptive superior spiritual being? I know you thought the "big stick" expression was quaint, but seriously: why would a fallen angelic being care about such things? If you show up on his doorstep, why would he care whether you had some oil on you - do you see what I'm asking?

[Whisper9999]

Like attracts like.

This would only be true if impersonal spiritual forces were responsible for all interactions. But if spiritual entities are truly independent, highly intelligent and powerful beings, then clearly they are in the driver's seat if we go into their domain. I guess I'm not seeing the logic of assuming that we can control them by exhibiting good will or strong character. Or am I missing what you're saying?

Going back to my example above, I was completely blindsided by whatever entity decided to go after me. I was in a great mood about to see a play in a community theatre when some spiritual force decided to try to turn my world upside down. And keep in mind I had no interest in anything of the sort as I had long abandoned any such practices/interests so like definitely would not attract like in this case - it was an unwelcome advance on my personal privacy!

[Whisper9999]

If I may be blunt for a moment, I did have an experience like this - but it was with the Christian God.

Well, that's an interesting comment: I usually hear that they have a negative experience with Christians but not with God Himself...

[DebLipp]

I know it's annoying when you've lived and worked with something so long that it's patently obvious and the other person doesn't seem to grasp it. Here's what I'm missing: what is it about the word Shekhina that makes it feminine in Hebrew? I'm sorry to be annoying, but I'm one of those peoples that has to know the details in order to have an "Aha!" moment. In other words, I know in Spanish if the word is preceded by 'la', then it's feminine. What is the Hebrew equivalent that's taking place here with the word Shekhina?
It's not always obvious in Hebrew, but the "ah" ending is an indicator. For example, "yeled" is "boy" and "yaldah" is girl; the "ah" ending is feminine. There are words that are female without that ending, but they still require feminine sentence structure. Shekinah is feminine.

With plurals, btw, the "im" is masculine and the "ot" is feminine. Boys and girls are yeladim and yaldot.

[Whisper9999]

It's not always obvious in Hebrew, but the "ah" ending is an indicator. For example, "yeled" is "boy" and "yaldah" is girl; the "ah" ending is feminine. There are words that are female without that ending, but they still require feminine sentence structure. Shekinah is feminine.

With plurals, btw, the "im" is masculine and the "ot" is feminine. Boys and girls are yeladim and yaldot.

Gotcha. Thx for being patient.

[samiaminsane]

Originally posted by Whisper9999:
I am seriously wondering how you think incenses/oils could protect one against a malevolent and/or deceptive superior spiritual being?
The Earth, and all that comes from her, hold power and energy. That would include herbs, oils and us. What would you do if confronted by a malevolent being?

[Djiril]

I'm curious, do you think Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, ect... take the same "inherent risk"? :huh:

(Also, you never answered my DND question! :sniffsnif Was Tobias right about it being Dungeons and Dragons?)

[Whisper9999]

The Earth, and all that comes from her, hold power and energy. That would include herbs, oils and us. What would you do if confronted by a malevolent being?

Okay, now I understand the meaning. I truly didn't understand what was meant...

You asked what I would do? Well, I don't know how to answer in detail that w/o probably coming off the wrong way, so I'll just say that I would do the same thing I did at that theatre...

[Whisper9999]

I'm curious, do you think Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, ect... take the same "inherent risk"? :huh:

(Also, you never answered my DND question! :sniffsnif Was Tobias right about it being Dungeons and Dragons?)

First of all, sorry not to answer your question - yes, it was DND. She and her friends would "create worlds" and enter into them. She never told me all the details of what she was doing for a variety of reasons...

If I understand your first question, I personally think that anyone, Christian or non, takes that risk. But, please, understand I'm not trying to force feed my opinion on anyone. If anyone disagrees with me, that's fine...

[DebLipp]

I appreciate your general sense of adventure, but to be more direct: how do you feel that you can possibly protect or "shield" yourself from entities that are clearly much more spiritually powerful than yourself. In fact, how can you even control what entities you meet along the way? And, going on with that, how do you know you can trust such an entity? Clearly, these are ancient, highly intelligent beings. If they were deceptive, how would you be able to discern?

You make a great many unsupported assumptions by simply tossing about the word "clearly." You are making broad statements about intelligence, power, deception, and age without knowing all that much about it.

Non-corporeal entities encountered ritually tend to be either (a) Gods, whose inherent goodness is part of their nature, (b) elementals, who are in no way more intelligent or powerful than people, merely different, (c) the dead (ghosts), who are generally about the same as they were when they were alive, although there are some specific risks in talking with them, or (d) other spirit entities such as Guardians, nature spirits, place spirits, egregores, etc.

Encountering Gods is only dangerous for people with ill intent, or for people not ready to face themselves. It can be difficult and it can be adventurous, but it is also the point of a religious life.

Elementals are only dangerous if not properly dismissed, something easily done. It is more like having ferrets loose in the house than anything else. Yes, they can chew the chords, but "child-proofing" works just fine.

The dangers of talking with the dead are mostly about being ungrounded, and can easily be addressed, although some people become so addicted to these conversations that they refuse to take precautionary measures.

That leaves a whole category of "other." Some of those encounters can be risky. Some of those beings might be ancient or intelligent AND ALSO interested in talking to us. Not most, and not often.

But Whisper, you have consistently failed to answer the counter-question that must be answered for your own question to make sense: Why live life without risk? Is the point of life really to eliminate risk? Do you choose to eliminate risk from other important areas of life, and if so, AREN'T YOU BORED?

[DebLipp]

I'm not trying to be overly inflammatory, but I am seriously wondering how you think incenses/oils could protect one against a malevolent and/or deceptive superior spiritual being? I know you thought the "big stick" expression was quaint, but seriously: why would a fallen angelic being care about such things? If you show up on his doorstep, why would he care whether you had some oil on you - do you see what I'm asking?

"Fallen angelic being" is Christian cosmology. You're asking this question of a great number of people who don't accept or acknowledge the validity of such cosmology. I am no more worried about "fallen angelic beings" than I am about the tooth fairy.

[Ben Trismegistus]

"Fallen angelic being" is Christian cosmology. You're asking this question of a great number of people who don't accept or acknowledge the validity of such cosmology. I am no more worried about "fallen angelic beings" than I am about the tooth fairy.
I dunno. The tooth fairy scares the crap out of me.

[DebLipp]

Are you back? :clapping:

I dunno. The tooth fairy scares the crap out of me.

You've seen those Coinstar commercials, right? Pretty scary.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Are you back? :clapping:
I am!

You've seen those Coinstar commercials, right? Pretty scary.
Yes! I love that commercial!

So, I have nothing to add to this thread. You said it all beautifully.

[frigga]

I would agree that what is in our hearts can be the most sinister...
This is exactly what I view as Demons, our dark side that hasn't been recognized or confronted. Paganism alows me to see my demons in all their glory, and either accept their torment or "vanquish" them. A life spent blaming everything on divine will and higher purpose would not push me to better myself and allow me to grow in the way that I need to. Some don't want the risk, and that's fine, that's how you go about understanding yourself, your God, and your world. But as far as me and many others here on this board, we need the challenge because a life that is simply dealt all the answers just isn't as good as it shoud be, to US, IMHO.

[Sleet]

Well, that's an interesting comment: I usually hear that they have a negative experience with Christians but not with God Himself...

It's not like he appeared to me and went "boogah boogah!" or anything. I went through a period of my life where the Christian God seemed to be no different than an abusive spouse. *Slap!* But you must love me... *Punch* But you must trust me... *Kick* That's malevolence, far more damaging to me than any evil spirit I may or may not encounter while meditating.

[Ladyvi]

in a way demons can be physical manifestations of our own fears and doubts. but as i recounted. i have seen and experienced the real deal. fortunately it wasnt one of the strong ones. since then have become sort of a spiritual warrior. a guardian of sorts. i can since and spot spirits rather malevolent or benificent(sp) .. depending on their demeanor and reason for being here. i deal with it as it comes. some entities have a purpose as that is the balance of things.

[aluokaloo]

Well, I do know that certain plants, stones, etc. can have the effect of walking a large dog on a leash. So to speak, they have protective energies and vibrations that can be powerful. I'm not saying that they work for all people, I'm not saying it works for everybody. I understand what you are saying though.

[Black RiverWolf]

i do not have a snses of fear when it comes to the spirits that i call to be with me those who show have never caused me harm or at least i don't think would. i have said before that i had one that was my best friend growing up and i would play with him all the time. but to protect my self im always in circle when i call upon them so i rely on my circle to prtect me while im there. whem im out i have my wolves. but i don't seem to get bothered just annyoed when someone shows up at the wrong time.

i have never been attaked either the ones that i see i see them because they want me to so i have no fear of them. but there are time when something can get rather out of hand and they need to be pushed away. but not very often has that happened i look at it this wasy the more the marrier

[Xaphan]

Back in the day when I was involved in the occult I had some frightening experiences, i.e. times when I believed I knew some nasty spiritual influences were taking over my life. And I know that some of you out there have had the same experience.

So here's my question for you: how do you think you can protect yourself from spirits that wish to deceive you? injure you? scare the $%^&* out of you? Do you really believe that you have control over what spirit contacts/controls you?

My experience says that spiritual forces do whatever they want and it has little to do with what you want. I guess what I'm asking is why do non-Christians take that inherent risk?

Cheap thrill?

But seriously, how do I protect myself? Various ways. But the bigger issue is this: professed Christian who doesn't understand if it's possible to protect yourself from/constrain/control evil spirits? Verging on non-sequitur, but I'll bite:

Seems to me that as a self-described Christian, that power would emanate from the spiritual authority Christ left his church. After all, didn't Christ, by virtue of his death and resurrection conquer Death, Hell, and the Grave?

I Peter 3:22, speaking of Christ, "... who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to Him."

Is it logical to believe that Christ would have simply abdicated that authority? He did, after all, tell his disciples to continue on his work, namely healing the sick, casting out demons, et cetera. And, by virtue of them, that same power was passed on to the church (which, as defined by me, means everyone who believes in and worships Christ.)

Do you believe in the power of exorcism? If so, you tell me why the power to cast out cannot also be used to attract or constrain. Stands to reason, at least to me, that the same God who created everything both visible and invisible would also have spiritual authority over all of those beings, no? And is not every Christian a partaker in that authority by virtue of Christ? (Which loops back to my question on exorcism.)

So, anyway, like I said, it seems to me that it's a question verging on non-sequitur, but hell, who am I to judge? :)

And, one last point on protection and all that: you've been involved in the occult and never read a grimoire? (Not trying to be smart-assy, just asking a legitimate question.)

[Thalias_Smile]

I am a Christian with mystic leanings. . .so maybe my answer is not the one you are looking for. . .but. . .

I believe that an individual who calls on a higher being (god/goddess) for protection will receive the protection that diety can provide. . .granted whatever pre-requisites for protection are met (ie sacrifice, prayer, ritual, etc).

As for whether spirits only deceive, injure, or scare non-Christians. . .I would say that is not an accurate portrayal. I believe many Christians are deceived, injured and/or scared by spirits all the time. . .it has nothing to do with path, but rather it has to do with faith. . .


Even though I follow a Pagan Path, I personally believe that there are evil/malignant beings, energies, or whatever you want to call it, who do everything they can to make sure certain people do not reach their destiny (yes I believe in destiny, but I also believe that people choose what they want to be/do--sort of like the whole "future whitelighter" thing on Charmed--hey, they got a FEW things right on that show). I believe that there are angels, guardian spirits, and other similar beings of light who watch over, and try to guide individuals in a certain direction, whether its as a Wiccan Priestess/Reiki Healer or Christian Minister/Spiritual Counselor. Some individuals are avatars, or at least have been "annointed" by specific deities/spirits, to serve the greater good in their name. These people may require special "protection," as malicious/malignant spirits or people (such as sorcerers or psy vamps) are more likely to attack those filled w/the brightest and purest inner light.

I was an easy target in my teenage years, as I too was fascinated by the occult, such as demonology, summoning circles, and the like. Though even then, despite my sheer stupidity, I feel that I had guardian spirits close by making sure things didn't go TOO far.