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Pol
July 6th, 2004, 04:24 PM
Have any of you ever looked into Shinto as a form of paganism?
They have very similiar beliefs, very very similiar.
Of course, they're different in that cultures differ, but I've always felt that the two are very closely connected - at least, to me.

jinx1_2
July 6th, 2004, 04:32 PM
I myself have been interested in learning more about Shintoism. All I know so far is that cleanliness is a very big part of it and that it is one of the main forms of Buddhism still practiced in Japan. Since I am very interested in all things Japanese, (I plan to live there someday), could you tell me more? Please? :D

Nighthawk
July 6th, 2004, 04:42 PM
Cool, cool.. tell us more, please

Pol
July 6th, 2004, 04:54 PM
Well, it's not actually a form of buddhism. It's not related, it's just merged (just as I am a Christian Pagan, most Japanese are Buddhist-Shinto).

From what I know (which is not nearly enough), it is based on the worship of ancestors and kami.
All things (if I know correctly) have kami, or spirits. Every plant, ever stone, ever person, every wind. They believe in reincarnation, as well as worship of the ancestor kami. I'm not really sure how that works, because if they're reincarnated, then there's no kami to worship. But there must be some explaination.

Cleanliness is very important to the Japanese, which is one of the things I love most about them.

There's really no rules or regulations regarding morals and such, as far as I know (which isn't all that far).

It involves a lot of (absolutely wonderful) shrinery - temples, road-side shrines, shrines for ancestors, shrines for woodland spirits. It's all very spiritual and nice..

savannahrose44
July 6th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Well, it's not actually a form of buddhism. It's not related, it's just merged (just as I am a Christian Pagan, most Japanese are Buddhist-Shinto).

From what I know (which is not nearly enough), it is based on the worship of ancestors and kami.
All things (if I know correctly) have kami, or spirits. Every plant, ever stone, ever person, every wind. They believe in reincarnation, as well as worship of the ancestor kami. I'm not really sure how that works, because if they're reincarnated, then there's no kami to worship. But there must be some explaination.

Cleanliness is very important to the Japanese, which is one of the things I love most about them.

There's really no rules or regulations regarding morals and such, as far as I know (which isn't all that far).

It involves a lot of (absolutely wonderful) shrinery - temples, road-side shrines, shrines for ancestors, shrines for woodland spirits. It's all very spiritual and nice..

Having been to Japan I'd say you're not far off base. :D

Pol
July 6th, 2004, 04:58 PM
I lived there for 2 years. I always get a thrill when I meet someone else who's been there. :D

savannahrose44
July 6th, 2004, 05:00 PM
I lived there for 2 years. I always get a thrill when I meet someone else who's been there. :D

I was there for 6 weeks. I wish I could have stayed longer...it was such a cool experience. The culture fascinates me. :uhhuhuh:

Pol
July 6th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Indeed. I'd daren't say there's a culture that can plus them! :D


[edit: dare and daren't make a big difference. heheheh]

savannahrose44
July 6th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Indeed. I'd daren't say there's a culture that can plus them! :D


[edit: dare and daren't make a big difference. heheheh]

I could spend a lifetime observing them and still be completely confused by them. It is definately a country where no one says what they truely mean.

IvyWitch
July 6th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Well, it's not actually a form of buddhism. It's not related, it's just merged (just as I am a Christian Pagan, most Japanese are Buddhist-Shinto).

Actually that's not totally correct. The modern form of the most common religion in Japan is a combination of Buddhism and Shinto (or Buddhism and Christianity or all three). Shinto itself as the original religion of Japan had nothing to do with Buddhism.

savannahrose44
July 6th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Actually that's not totally correct. The modern form of the most common religion in Japan is a combination of Buddhism and Shinto (or Buddhism and Christianity or all three). Shinto itself as the original religion of Japan had nothing to do with Buddhism.

Very true.:)

Khuinaset
July 6th, 2004, 05:53 PM
I have a book called 'Had you been born another faith' that has a 15-ish page long section on Shinto...it's from the 60s, though, so I don't know how up to date it will be. If anyone's interested, I could type up some of it or scan it for you guys?

savannahrose44
July 6th, 2004, 05:55 PM
I have a book called 'Had you been born another faith' that has a 15-ish page long section on Shinto...it's from the 60s, though, so I don't know how up to date it will be. If anyone's interested, I could type up some of it or scan it for you guys?

That would be cool. Thanks. :smile:

Khuinaset
July 6th, 2004, 06:38 PM
Ok, here's the first five pages...I didn't think I could type all of it so I scanned it in. The text should be readable if you zoom in, if it's not, tell me and I'll rescan that page.

...blah. The images turned out at a little over one megabyte apiece, which explains why it's taking *forever* to upload on a 28.8 kbps. I don't know how small I can make them without making it readable. I'll just type it up sometime tomorrow, sorry guys.

savannahrose44
July 6th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Ok, here's the first five pages...I didn't think I could type all of it so I scanned it in. The text should be readable if you zoom in, if it's not, tell me and I'll rescan that page.

...blah. The images turned out at a little over one megabyte apiece, which explains why it's taking *forever* to upload on a 28.8 kbps. I don't know how small I can make them without making it readable. I'll just type it up sometime tomorrow, sorry guys.

That's okay thanks for trying though. :D

Pol
July 6th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Umm..that's the same thing I said, that their religion is a mixture of the two, and neither are related to the other.
I said it had nothing to do with buddhism and was their original religion (or meant to, if i didn't).

But, Christianity? Hardly. They basically hated Christianity because of the spanish movements there during the olden tymmes. Also, I think maybe less than 1% of Japanese people are Christians. Given the millions of people there..No, it's not Buddhism and Christianity.

IvyWitch
July 6th, 2004, 09:52 PM
Umm..that's the same thing I said, that their religion is a mixture of the two, and neither are related to the other.
I said it had nothing to do with buddhism and was their original religion (or meant to, if i didn't).

But, Christianity? Hardly. They basically hated Christianity because of the spanish movements there during the olden tymmes. Also, I think maybe less than 1% of Japanese people are Christians. Given the millions of people there..No, it's not Buddhism and Christianity.

No need to get defensive, I obviously misunderstood what you said and was clarifying it.
sheesh.

And, I will willingly admit that I have never been to Japan, but I know a good deal of people who live there who are Christian and Buddhist. I am speaking from my own personal knowledge, not cultural expertise. I apologise for having offended or upset you with my statements....but next time can you disagree with me more politely?

Pol
July 6th, 2004, 10:08 PM
Whoa..ehm, I wasn't upset? Maybe I should've slipped some smilies in there or something. Heheh...

Spiritcalf
July 6th, 2004, 10:16 PM
I have studied shinto for personal and college reasons. It is a topic I am interested in.

Pol
July 6th, 2004, 10:23 PM
How would you compare it to Paganism?

IvyWitch
July 6th, 2004, 10:34 PM
I have studied shinto for personal and college reasons. It is a topic I am interested in.


OMG you have a moobie avatar!!

ok sorry, done now. ^^;;;;

HorseCrow
July 7th, 2004, 05:22 AM
About 7 years back I took a 6 months course in Shinto- and I must admit that it did not appeal to me at all, amybe it's the cultural difference, but it just made no sense. Which is probably why I have forgotten most of it.

mucgwyrt
July 7th, 2004, 05:41 AM
Well, it's not actually a form of buddhism. It's not related, it's just merged (just as I am a Christian Pagan, most Japanese are Buddhist-Shinto).

From what I know (which is not nearly enough), it is based on the worship of ancestors and kami.
All things (if I know correctly) have kami, or spirits. Every plant, ever stone, ever person, every wind. They believe in reincarnation, as well as worship of the ancestor kami. I'm not really sure how that works, because if they're reincarnated, then there's no kami to worship. But there must be some explaination.

Cleanliness is very important to the Japanese, which is one of the things I love most about them.

There's really no rules or regulations regarding morals and such, as far as I know (which isn't all that far).

It involves a lot of (absolutely wonderful) shrinery - temples, road-side shrines, shrines for ancestors, shrines for woodland spirits. It's all very spiritual and nice..

It sounds very similar to what I already believe, I'd love to learn more :)

Phi
July 7th, 2004, 11:36 AM
A Japanese wise person, Inazo Nitobe, explains Shinto thus:

A Naturefolk learns by intimate contact with nature that there is a healing power in the flower and the grass, in the mountains and the streams, in the rain and the clouds. He comes to see gods working in these phenomena, and if they are of divine origen, do they not contain goodly qualities? Why seek afar for the divine? It is even inthe objects around you. They are good and just. Why seek elsewhere for justice and goodness? so to live a natural life is to be just and good. There is no evil in nature. What seems to be evil is the tipping of the balance scale. Evil is immoderation. All natural appetites are good and they become evil only when indulged in to excess. This is Shinto is the Way of the Gods, a naive primitive teaching aboriginal to the soil of Japan.

Ancient Kami-no-michi contained a heaven and a hell, of sorts.

Shinto was called Kami-no-michi by the aborigines until Chinese Buddists came and many of the Buddist ways were accepted into their faith. The Chinese called it Shin-tao, the way of the Gods.

Shinto is very much a Japanese religion, and one of their precepts is "Do not be carried away by foreign teaching." I wonder then, if it would discourage potential converts to whom Shinto is a foreign teaching?

"Shinto cannot really be isolated from Buddism and Confucianism easily today(1963!), because it has absorbed elements from both."

Their virtues are
Courage, and even small children who do not show courage are severely punished, and taught not to cry, and taught to say they would die for their father. Loyalty, first to the ruler of Japan, community , family and future generations. Disloyalty is severely punished.Cleanliness, many rituals for cleansing.
There are many sects of Shinto, however all observe certain basic tenets.

Joseph Gaer What the Great Religions Believe 1963 (Now out of print, I think)
Personally, I could not have been comfortable practicing Shinto, because I could never have approved of a husband who would beat a small child for not saying "I would die for you, father" fast enough. It seems to be an extremely patriarchal religion with the father of the family having all the rights. It also seems to be a worship of nature in Japan only and a true believer of Shinto would need to see Japan as the "Holy Land."
I think all of earth is holy. The ideas are beautiful, the practice of the religion is not always so beautiful...

Pol
July 7th, 2004, 12:14 PM
It would seem that Japan is/was very patriarchal, and the men had all of the rights - because they did, but from my knowledge did not use them all that much. Japanese women tend (as far as I have learned) to have a 'men are boys with bigger toys' mindset, and the women actually (at least, they used to, not sure now) were considered to be the most wise between two, and men often went to their wives for council. Their mothers also, usually, lived with them and were councilors as well.
Also, the women took care of all of the finances and real dealings of life.

Phi
July 7th, 2004, 12:45 PM
It would seem that Japan is/was very patriarchal, and the men had all of the rights - because they did, but from my knowledge did not use them all that much. Japanese women tend (as far as I have learned) to have a 'men are boys with bigger toys' mindset, and the women actually (at least, they used to, not sure now) were considered to be the most wise between two, and men often went to their wives for council. Their mothers also, usually, lived with them and were councilors as well.
Also, the women took care of all of the finances and real dealings of life.

What you are saying becomes truer each day, for Japanese women have very recently become more equal than ever before. However, I was speaking to traditional Shinto beliefs and practices. Ancient Shinto saw woman as born corrupt and impure, as did ancient Buddhism, from which it absorbed many ideas.
In Buddhism, in the 1200's, a man named Honen made some startling statements. He said that women did not need to be ashamed anymore because they were born corrupt and impure. Because of the doctrine of heno-nanji, they could go to heaven by being good enough to attain the wonder of becoming men!
Simply illustrates that Japanese women were (and to great extent still are) considered to be born as less than men.
Secretaries often take care of all the finances, however that does not make them the boss of the finances...Women in Japan do everything that men in Japan do not want to do. But men in Japan still have the final say.

Pol
July 7th, 2004, 01:07 PM
It seems to me that a lot of it a 'do as we do not as we say.' deal. I could be way off base but that's how it's kind of seemed to me.

savannahrose44
July 7th, 2004, 01:24 PM
In my host family when I was there...my host mother was the keeper of the cash, and she was also treated as less than equal by her husband. She walked at least two steps behind him at all times...she opened the door for him...cooked and cleaned for him...and yet they did not share the same bed. He has a mistress elsewhere. Yet there was still that respect that she held for him...I will never understand it.

Pol
July 7th, 2004, 01:26 PM
They're a different culture, for sure.

However, they must've been a rather fogey sort of couple! I know most of japan is very westernised now, and women often walk along with men (even hand in hand).

I don't see much wrong with the mistress thing. It's not adultry for them, it's accepted and even sometimes suggested by the wife.

Pol
July 7th, 2004, 01:55 PM
Also, yes - Japan is the Land of the Gods, where they make their home.
I've often found their stories about the Gods to be not much unlike the legends of Ireland.

[edit: woo! 100th post!]

savannahrose44
July 7th, 2004, 02:11 PM
Congradulations! WOooo Hooo! I don't know about their relationship being foggy...it may be that they are of the older generation and the younger I know has no problem holding hands exct. Who knows.

MorningDove030202
July 27th, 2004, 08:06 AM
I remember reading something at "Wren's Nets" about an American Shinto Shrine, but I can't recall where in the US it is, but for those of you who haven't gotten to Japan yet, perhapse you could visit the american Shinto Shrine?

Dove

Isa
July 27th, 2004, 10:53 AM
I remember reading something at "Wren's Nets" about an American Shinto Shrine, but I can't recall where in the US it is, but for those of you who haven't gotten to Japan yet, perhapse you could visit the american Shinto Shrine?

Dove

Found it! It's in Washington State (http://www.tsubakishrine.com/test/home.asp) XD I found a new roadtrip stop now me thinks :3

Also found this (http://www.cephasministry.com/nwo_bush_goes_to_shinto_worship.html) which I find terribly funny for some reason XD XD XD

PAGANFILES
July 27th, 2004, 10:28 PM
Have any of you ever looked into Shinto as a form of paganism?
They have very similiar beliefs, very very similiar.
Of course, they're different in that cultures differ, but I've always felt that the two are very closely connected - at least, to me.

I have the THE YENGISHIKITHE YENGISHIKI _ THE HARVEST RITUAL and THE KOJ-IKITHE KOJIKI [R.H. Chamberlain, translator 1882] PART I.- THE BIRTH OF THE DEITIES
THE BEGINNING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH available in the Paganfiles Archives. If you're interested in either or both just PM me and give me an e-mail address. I'll reply with an e-mail with the zipped files attached. Free, and no strings.

Terry

savannahrose44
July 28th, 2004, 01:30 PM
Found it! It's in Washington State (http://www.tsubakishrine.com/test/home.asp) XD I found a new roadtrip stop now me thinks :3

Also found this (http://www.cephasministry.com/nwo_bush_goes_to_shinto_worship.html) which I find terribly funny for some reason XD XD XD

Definately a detour I'm going to make next time I drive to Seattle! Thanks! :spinnysmi

tart_sprite
May 24th, 2006, 05:32 AM
I remember reading something at "Wren's Nets" about an American Shinto Shrine, but I can't recall where in the US it is, but for those of you who haven't gotten to Japan yet, perhapse you could visit the american Shinto Shrine?

Dove


I know there is one about a hour away from where I live. There is a Shinto Shrine in Granit Falls, WA. I have not been, I just recently found out about it myself.:hahugh:

Well I see someone has already given this info out. I better read all the pages first i supose. lol i thought i did, hehe.

Agaliha
May 24th, 2006, 03:25 PM
When I was learning about Buddhism, I picked up a book about Shino gods at the library. It was pretty interesting. I haven't really looked into it further though. I got interested in the fact that they have a form of Saraswati (Benten)

Here are some sites that explain it:
http://www.religionfacts.com/a-z-religion-index/shinto.htm
http://www.scns.com/earthen/other/seanachaidh/godjapan.html
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shinto.shtml
http://inanna.virtualave.net/fareast.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm

I didn't know there was a temple in Seattle, how cool. I live in WA, I could visit....though I'm horrified by the amount of incense I saw them using in the book. I'm very allergic to smoke and incense. So maybe not. Heh.

Agaliha
May 24th, 2006, 07:54 PM
More links:

Japanese Mythology: Inari (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/oinari.shtml)

Ukemochi (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/u/ukemochi.html)
Institute of Japanese Culture and Classics | OnLine Publications (http://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp/index.html)
Suijin | Water Deva (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/suijin.shtml)
Water O Kami - Suijin | Japanese Shrine with Photos (http://www.izumigou.net/junbi.htm)
Water O Kami - Suijin | Snow Celebration (http://www.pref.akita.jp/fpd/bunka/kamakura,sugawara/kamakura.htm)
o-Inari-san (http://community-2.webtv.net/TerMcC/Inari/)
Goddesses of Japan (http://www.thelema.net/hml/00Shinto/chap_16.html)
Amaterasu Omikami - the Sun Goddess (http://cla.calpoly.edu/~bmori/syll/351EAWomen/Amaterasu.html)
Amaterasu Omikami | origin | Ise Shrine (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/moriyuki/abukuma/moriyukis/japan/shinto/shinto.html)
Naiku - Amaterasu Omikami (http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/naigu/naibody.htm)
Amaterasu - Great Divinity Illuminating Heaven (http://64.227.194.192/goddess/goddess_quest/amaterasu.html)
Amenouzume | Heavenly-Alarming-Female (http://www.nihonbunka.com/shinto/blog/archives/000055.html)
WOMAN AND THE SHINTO RELIGION (http://www.geocities.com/ecclesiaofwomen/womanshinto/)
Shikishi (http://home.infionline.net/~ddisse/shikishi.html)
Amaterasu (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/amaterasu.html)
Amatsu Norito | Amaterasu Omikami | Shinto Prayers (http://www.nihonbunka.com/shinto/shinto-norito.html)
san-hikari | the three lights | Shinto and Human Life | Kami no Michi (http://www.csuchico.edu/~georgew/tsa/Kami_no_Michi_10.html)
Romance of Old Japan (http://www.kellscraft.com/romanceofoldjapan/romancejapan01.html)
Japanese Legendary Lives (http://members.tripod.com/~oaproject/critter.html#shikigam)
Hair in the Kojiki (http://www.nihonbunka.com/shinto/blog/archives/000054.html)
Women & Women's Communities in Ancient Japan (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/WOMEN.HTM)
Encyclopedia of Shinto (http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/)
Merfolk | Japan (http://www.youkaimura.org/merfolk.htm)
KOJIKI | Italian | Beautiful Illustrations (http://web.tiscali.it/angolodidario/passatoassoluto/Kojiki.html)
The KOJIKI | An English Translation (http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/kojiki.htm) Shinto Creation Stories (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/CREAT.HTM)

Copied from: http://hometown.aol.com/onceusedbooks/myhomepage/

Cerulean_damselfly
May 24th, 2006, 11:51 PM
Hello Phi and others...

1. Inazo Nitobe
Inazo Nitobe is a very historical Japanese Christian voice... Meiji-raised (died in 1933) gentleman...he also seemed to be interested in Bushido and Samurai culture--you can read his text for free on Project Gutenberg if you are interested.

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12096

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inazo_Nitobe

I've never been that interested in historical Bushido or Samurai leanings, so never sought to read his views.

2. On Joseph Gaer:
Joseph Gaer What the Great Religions Believe 1963

The quotes:
Their virtues are
Courage, and even small children who do not show courage are severely punished, and taught not to cry, and taught to say they would die for their father. Loyalty, first to the ruler of Japan, community , family and future generations. Disloyalty is severely punished.Cleanliness, many rituals for cleansing.
There are many sects of Shinto, however all observe certain basic tenets.
........

Wowee, yes cleanliness rings a bell...but the loyalty oath thing is wierd. That sounds very close to the state Shinto that was abolished at the close of World War II...I've heard from Japanese people that were raised there most of their experience of Shinto was from their local shrine or family, more folk Shinto. Never had heard of the loyalty oath or beatings, etc...most of the discipline or pressure to do well is more subtle, as a friend of mine who went through the Hiroshima and Japanese graduate school systems told me.

As far as ruling family, honestly, none of the Japanese that I knew raised there ever really venerated the ruling family like that feudalistic view in terms of medievalism...it was kind of more a royalty-fetish like "Princess Di and Charles" in the twentieth-century... and I never saw or heard 'oaths' for family loyalty. I came from strict families, old fashioned-families. One set of grandparents were an arranged marriage, but there wasn't any corporal punishment, no yelling , no oaths of loyalty...in fact the grandmother as a young girl
could have chosen not to be introduced to young men and married, but she was adventurous for her time..

I'd enjoy recommending more modern texts if you are interested in Shinto as an open system in modern times. I'm joining the Tsubaki Jinja of Granite Falls, Washington State after evaluating things for the past six months...because the good things I remember from my family culture seems emphasized there, the gentle family values...I find it is a recognized Shinto organization, the senior priest is good with American/Japanese and healthful communication and really, I do like their deity enshrinement.

Just my experience and view...

Best regards,

Cerulean_Damselfly

P.S. The female aspect of divinity enshrined at Tsubaki is a form of Uzume...


http://www.uwec.edu/philrel/shimbutsudo/uzume.html