Has anyone attended Sacred Mists?

[Swifthollow_Poe]

Okay, I was wondering if anyone has ever attending this online school.

The College of The Sacred Mists (http://www.workingwitches.com/index.html?source=OV)

If anyone out there has attending this school, tell me: was it any good? Is it worth the money? Is there a better school out there?

I have just finished university, and I am now trying to enlighten my spiritual side which has been neglected for my whole school career. However, I am having trouble with this Wiccan Way of self education. I guess I have spent too many years in a structured learning environment. I need to be assigned homework, which will be graded, to know if I am on the right track, and not just making stuff up! :smile:

I'm really good at research, I have a real knack for it, I've had to develop over the years for school. But I can't search if I don't know what I am looking for!! There is so much good information out there, and then a LOT of bad. I am not interested in being a fluff bunny. And even if in the end I am just full of useless information, I'd rather that than be full of empty information.

I like this message board. A LOT the people here have really helped me, and I have found plenty of good links. However, this is too slow going for me, sorting through links.

I need to start Wicca 101, my leanings are Pagan: Norse and Celtic. :viking:

If anyone can help me get started, advice, links, reading lists, person experience stories, THEY WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!
:loveduv: :hearteyes :hearthear :heyalove: :heartthro :hugz: :huddle: :smoochypo

There is so much info out there, and I can't seem to find it. I'm starting to feel a bit lost, and very frustrated. :bangyourh

[Ceffyl]

"College of the Sacred Mist Online School of Wicca" is not a site I had seen before, so thank you for sharing it.

This site set off several alarm bells:

First thing on the site is the attractive "earn your HP/HPS Status!"

*NO* information explaining the tradition. Just that you can become a priest/ess.

Classes seem to cover the basics, but again, the list itself diesn't seem to present a coherent tradition. Of course, this can be hard to tell without the actual text.

After reviewing the site, there are some things that bother me: enrollment fee of $25 and a monthly fee of $20.

How is this college run? Is it incorporated, with tax exempt status? Is this organization open so you can see the books and know that indeed the funds do go to cover their expenses? (In other words, is this college a scam to gain money from unsuspecting students?)

Is there a ruling council that makes decisions on initiations/elevations or are these left up to the sole decision of the instructor? What about a process for filing grievances?

*Who* are the instructors? Lady Raven Moonshadow is the only instructor mentioned. What are *her* credentials to teach? What is her background? Has she been studying under someone else or is she self taught? (No problem either way -- it's just good to know.) If she has been properly initiated, which tradition did she study under and can you verify her credentials? If she refuses to provide verification of initiation (if she is lineaged, only) then be very wary.

The FAQ has three questions about payment, but nothing about the college's faculty.

Class topics: First degree course is a little light. Here are two sites that list different training requirements for first degree: Intertradition Guidelines (http://northwind.faithweb.com/guides.htm). Also (as a means for comparision) here are the First Degree classes from my tradition: http://northwind.faithweb.com/firstdegree/classlist.html (please note that this list does not include additional assignment, homework, and required chats/rituals).

Does the college offer ordination as part of the priest/ess path of study? If so, how are they offering that ordination? Through Universal Life Chruch? Or do they have Church status?

My gut reaction would be to stay away from this site. It is obvious that a lot of time and planning has gone into the site. If you are really curious, see if you can audit an online chat or two to get a flavor for class size and the teaching style.

More responses after a bit...

Ceffyl

[Ceffyl]

Getting started with Wicca 101...

Have you considered Mystic Wick's Teaching Circle? There are plenty of excellent teachers, a great community, plus it is *free*!

It might be a good place to start your studies, learn more, and maybe after that consider looking for a formal teacher.

Blessings,

Ceffyl

[Swifthollow_Poe]

Classes seem to cover the basics, but again, the list itself doesn’t seem to present a coherent tradition. Of course, this can be hard to tell without the actual text. Class topics: First degree course is a little light. Here are two sites that list different training requirements for first degree: Intertradition Guidelines (http://northwind.faithweb.com/guides.htm). Also (as a means for comparison) here are the First Degree classes from my tradition: http://northwind.faithweb.com/firstdegree/classlist.html (please note that this list does not include additional assignment, homework, and required chats/rituals). My gut reaction would be to stay away from this site. It is obvious that a lot of time and planning has gone into the site. If you are really curious, see if you can audit an online chat or two to get a flavour for class size and the teaching style.

Its hard to tell, I agree. But I'm so new at this, I have no idea WHAT to look for, what is a full curriculum? What is one lacking. So any help in knowing what is expected of me to learn is very helpful. Thanks for you opinion, it really means a lot to me


After reviewing the site, there are some things that bother me: enrolment fee of $25 and a monthly fee of $20.

How is this college run? Is it incorporated, with tax exempt status? Is this organization open so you can see the books and know that indeed the funds do go to cover their expenses? (In other words, is this college a scam to gain money from unsuspecting students?)

Money wouldn't be a problem. If paying for my studies meant I would be able to get a more intense study, it wouldn't matter. At the same time, I don't want to get scammed. I could use that money on books instead.

Is there a ruling council that makes decisions on initiations/elevations or are these left up to the sole decision of the instructor? What about a process for filing grievances?

*Who* are the instructors? Lady Raven Moonshadow is the only instructor mentioned. What are *her* credentials to teach? What is her background? Has she been studying under someone else or is she self taught? (No problem either way -- it's just good to know.) If she has been properly initiated, which tradition did she study under and can you verify her credentials? If she refuses to provide verification of initiation (if she is lineage, only) then be very wary.

Good question, I hadn't noticed that before. I think I will write her, just because I am curious to know what her explanation will be.

First thing on the site is the attractive "earn your HP/HPS Status!"

*NO* information explaining the tradition. Just that you can become a priest/ess.
….

Does the college offer ordination as part of the priest/ess path of study? If so, how are they offering that ordination? Through Universal Life Church? Or do they have Church status?

When I first saw the site, and read you could become a priest or priestess, I couldn't help but giggle. I had a university teacher of religious studies who claimed to be a Wiccan (or pagan, I can't remember) High Priestess. I found her to be ridiculous, both in her general knowledge of the class she taught (I have no idea how she got the job) and the way she presented herself. I just can't take that term seriously. Besides I think it degrades the title if it could just be handed out for a years study at an online course. It sort of spits in the face of all those who have studied long at their covens, or even on a different level with the same word, to Christians, who's priests have gone through years of dedicated study.
I'm not interested in being a 'priestess' I would just like to stay away from that word altogether. I understand and like the concept of being able to communicate with your gods, standing before them level. But anyone and their familiar can call themselves a Priestess, so what does the word mean anymore? It just seems too much to be a word used to elevate oneself. If you are able to communicate to your god(s) at the same level, why would you need a fancy-smancy title?
Sorry, rant over : )

Getting started with Wicca 101...

Have you considered Mystic Wick's Teaching Circle? There are plenty of excellent teachers, a great community, plus it is *free*!

It might be a good place to start your studies, learn more, and maybe after that consider looking for a formal teacher.

I have considered it. Browsed through. There is so much combined information there, I’ve very impressed. The problem I have this it is that it is on a message board. Things are constantly moving about, and I am finding it extremely difficult to navigate through the threads and boards for an education.


Thank you so much, you have been very helpful!

[Zerynthia]

I am a former student at Sacred Mists and all I can say is "Run Forest Run!"

1. There are no "classes" per se. There are lessons that you read and are expected to do additional research through books (which can be conveniently purchased at the Sacred Mists Shoppe for a premium!) Lady Raven does not even grade the homework herself, nor does she present anything at the bi-monthly study circles. Instead, other students and members of the Student Council grade "homework".

I completed the First Degree with them, and if you can stand the typos and grammatical errors, more power to you.

2. It's expensive - when you consider that 95% of the school information is archived on MSN Groups - a free service. Save your money and buy a book - at least its been properly edited.

3. The place is chock full of fluffy bunnies with emotional problems. Do you really want to be initiated into a coven with people who really have no business practicing magick?

4. If you read the Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame in the context of this "school", every red flag and warning siren goes off.

5. If you do a search for a post to a blog entitled "Unscrupulous Pagans" by a guy named Juvenall, you will note that several people have some legitimate questions that go unanswered by Lady Raven and others who claim allegiance to the school. Furthermore, there is some proof that the schools' lesson plan is free information - copied, repackaged and sold to the naive for a great deal of money.

Please, do yourself a favor, don't end up like me - out hundreds of dollars - and stay away.

Zerynthia

[Tullip Troll]

you said you were leaning pagan and celtic, are you sure it's even wicca your after, they do have priestess titles when earned.

I would start more with whats free and available untill you know what you want.

There is the Wiccan Church in Toronto, if wiccan is what your looking for. Also if a coven is near you I would think studies with a person might prove benficial, so you can not only read but see what they do aand what their dynamics are like ?

There is a Wiccan priestess who is quite reputable who Teaches through the carelton University in Ottawa. She does not teach wicca but religious studies. I hope you don't mean her, because she's very educated, smart and experienced. Crazy humour but very very smart.

[Owen_Gwalchmai]

I realize this is an old thread but I wanted to put in my two cents worth. I was a Sacred Mysts student for the better part of a year, four years ago. I was there primarily in support of a friend. I agree with the assessment that the "lessons" were nothing that you couldn't find anywhere on the web or in existing publications. I was also given the understanding that some of it was plagerized. The lessons consisted of several pages of reading, again, stuff you could have gotten out of any good book on the subjest, then a handful of questions about what you read. Really pretty useless.

But here's the real bee in my bonnet: At the time I was a student there I was told there were roughly one thousand students of the school. The tuition for Sacred Mysts at the time was $20.00 per month; do the math! For twenty thousand dollars a month you would think they could have come up with a really first rate program. As soon as I did the math I dropped that program in utter disgust.

- Owen

[teishabee]

Well hey there Owen.

Welcome to Mw.

Dont be once bitten twice shy. The teachings here are free and also some great discussions to be had.

hope you stay around and see for yourself.

[Owen_Gwalchmai]

Thanks for the welcome. I'll stay around and check it out!

[gypsytrails]

I attended Sacred Mists when it was under the old name...I was a student there for about three months, and it did not feel right to me...so left. Since then I have seen on the web, that it does not have a good reputation at all...and there were rumors that most of what was being taught was plagerised from other sources.

[Scott Hill]

I was a member of Sacred Mists for a little over two years, where I earned first and second degrees (I am also Pathworker and co-founder of the Book of Spirals coven, which is where most of my real magical education comes from). I conducted many rituals and classes at the Mists; I was also a board facilitator and psychic reader with that program. I loved the people and many aspects of that community.

However, roughly a year-and-a-half after I started there, I met with Lorien Carrillo (who calls herself Lady Raven Moonshadow - the director and "arch-priestess" of the school). From the first time I called her, I could see she and I weren't going to get along.

It was at that point that Ms. Carrillo began to ridicule me for several things. She made fun of me for being poor (she makes beaucoup bucks and can't stand those who don't agree that capitalism is the best path for economic systems). She also told me that I had to hide my intelligence so other people wouldn't be intimidated and that I was never allowed to question the curriculum - I just had to learn it by rote. She said that questioning my education was "learning by the rub" and that she wouldn't stand for it. She also ridiculed me for being self-initiated in my home coven - apparently she doesn't believe only the gods can initiate someone, but that another human has to officiate). Then she wanted to hire me to teach professional classes at Sacred Mists (but didn't want to draw up a contract, so I'm not sure if I would ever have been paid). Then I started having doubts about her leadership abilities (as well as my own in that climate) and withdrew from the third degree entrance exam. That really set her off. As my punishment, she told me I wasn't allowed to teach there for pay any more (she was still more than willing to have my services for free - actually at cost to me since I was paying tuition almost the whole time I was there). Then we moved to a new home, and I couldn't afford the tuition for a brief period. From the moment I went on "scholarship", I started getting harassing letters and Ms. Carrillo started using my lack of funds to manipulate me - trying to get me to follow her orders and join the censorship network that runs throughout Sacred Mists. I got sick of being treated this way and left. It's unfortunate because I feel I could have really been a benefit to even more people at the Mists, but Ms. Carrillo didn't seem to care about that.

In short, I found the community to contain a number of wonderful people, but I found Ms. Carrillo to be both charismatic and manipulative - which I feel is a dangerous combination. This was affirmed shortly after I left when someone at the Mists volunteered on another website that she was the coven's secret administrator and that she was privy to all our confidential information (including addresses, paypal information, etc.). I highly recommend that you avoid this school, which is sad because there are so many nice people there. But it only takes one person's power trip to ruin a whole community, and Ms. Carrillo - in my opinion - is always ready to stamp down those who would question her methods.

More recently, I've noticed that Ms. Carrillo is trying to put out a statement about her credentials - something she refused to do for many years. I just have a few questions about this statement (it's the same, and you'll find it many places about the net). Ms. Carrillo admits she was ordained by someone not fit to meet the responsibilities of leadership, so I don't even have to ask about that. But I would like to know: Why did Ms. Carrillo only post this statement in forums where it can't be questioned? Why does Ms. Carrillo say she's an arch-priestess who has started five separate covens when there seens to be no trace of these other covens? Was this just window-dressing for her website? And why is Ms. Carrillo so close-mouthed about her education (finally giving a pseudonym for the person who allegedly ordained her, but no other method of contact)? Could it be that the person who allegedly ordained her is now embarrassed of Ms. Carrillo and won't acknowledge her? This statement of Ms. Carrillo's refuses to answer many more questions than it answers.

I'd also like to finally know the truth about Ms. Carrillo's funds. She told me she only makes $34,000 a year from the Mists and that her husband "only" makes $100,000 a year. But she also told me that she pays at least $120,000 a year for Sacred Mists advertising. Ms. Carrillo was very adamant to me that she would never lead a life without luxuries - and I know she lives in a very posh area of California - so where is her other money coming from? Is she still working for Microsoft Business Solutions, Boeing, AltaVista, Wells Fargo banks or one of the other multi-million dollar corporations listed on her resume? Unless Lorien Carrillo decides to start being honest with people, we may never know.

Sorry to be on the soap box so long, but I really want people to know what type of "leadership" is going on a Sacred Mists. To anyone who bothers to read this statement, I thank you for your time.

Blessings,
Scott H.

[Scott Hill]

Woops - I wanted to mention one last thing because I see that an earlier responder wanted to know about the shop at Sacred Mists. I, and numerous others that I know, tried to buy things there. The customer service was non-existent (I never once got an answer, even as a member of the school). The selection looks good, but many, many items are constantly out of stock. Also, I looked up some of the items in a Kheops wholesale catalog at one point. I just did a random sample of eight items, but the minimum mark-up was 300% (and that's the price before shipping). I recommend you shop elsewhere.

-S.H.

[Scott Hill]

Here is a website where some of the members of Sacred Mists leadership incriminate themselves:

http://www.juvenall.com/?s=sacred+mists

I'm glad to see the truth is being spoken about the Sacred Mists "coven".

[Sparkles]

I have seen this blog and I know Sacred Mists, as well as other teaching sites available. I will say again that you get what you put into such places. I know people who have blossomed there (and I know people who have blossomed at other sites as well), and I know people who have decided to move on.

If there are things going on there that are illegal, I don't think that Sacred Mists would still be there. And I certainly can vouch for the amount of time that I put into the furtherance of my own path and the few posts that I put out there on the internet. I can't imagine what the pressures must be on someone who is the "go to" person for a website focusing on Wicca, which is one of the most rapidly growing spiritual paths in the world. If I was running that website, or any teaching website for that matter, I would need to quit my job in order to keep it up and running. I would need to charge for my services as well, at least to cover the funds that I would have to lay out.

I admit, I am playing devil's advocate here. And Scott, you obviously were not happy with your experiences there;I read your posts on the blog. I am sure that there are those who are not happy with their experiences here at MysticWicks, although this seems to me to be a great place where each of us can feel free to post our thoughts. I have not been here long enough to know for sure, but I would guess that MW is still here because of that, because even though some have unhappy experiences, overall something positive is being offered. Maybe Sacred Mists is the same?

[Scott Hill]

Hi Sparkles,

Actually, I appreciate your input. I'm not asking for wholesale condemnation of Sacred Mists; I'm asking for people to realistically investigate it and see what they think. That means one of the best things I can do is bring the debate to public posts. There are some great people at Sacred Mists. And one of the reasons I am so adamant about telling the truth about this "coven" is that I don't want those people to be hurt.

You assume that Sacred Mists wouldn't still be around if it were doing something illegal. Why is that? Many people in positions of power the world over abuse the laws and no one does anything. Just look at Hitler, George W. Bush, Rex Tillerson, Martha Stewart.... I could type all day. Do they care what the law says? Do law enforcers always catch the criminals, even when the crimes are blatant?

Yes, there are enormous pressures on Lorien Carrillo - your "go to" person for Sacred Mists. Perhaps that's why she told me just over a year ago that she couldn't go on with the college without further hospitalization for mental illness. So, you see, Ms. Carrillo is actually one of the people I'm concerned about when I post about Sacred Mists. Now, there's nothing wrong with this in and of itself; I have also had problems with mental illness in the past. That's why I made sure to ameliorate those problems before I began down a path that involved teaching others. But Ms. Carrillo seems to see money and social power as an "arch-priestess" as so important that she will even neglect herself and those closest to her. That can't be good for anyone involved with her program.

Yes, I'm sure some people aren't happy with their Mystic Wicks experience. However, there are some major differences between Mystic Wicks and Sacred Mists that affect the status of people who are disgruntled.

First, Sacred Mists' leadership try to keep you from knowing anything about the program until you are already hooked. Or they lie about the program as student council member Shauni did to me when I first was interested in the college. I asked her if I was allowed to question the program I would be working in, and she falsely assured me I would. Later, Lorien Carrillo told me that I wasn't allowed to question anything about "her" curriculum. Contrarily, Mystic Wicks' posts - and other kinds of information - are available to non-subscribers.

Second, Ms. Carrillo charges for Sacred Mists services while Mystic Wicks only asks for donations. Yes, Mystic Wicks does have an area where you can buy merchandise, too, but there is a difference. At Sacred Mists, the lessons and the community pressure you into using their Shoppe. I've never encountered such pressure at Mystic Wicks.

Third, Mystic Wicks presents a clear set of guidelines explaining what posts may be censored. Ironically, they are still less likely to censor posts than Sacred Mists; at the same time, Sacred Mists has a much stricter censorship policy, but it's not available to its students (unless there has been radical change since I was there).

Fourth, Sacred Mists has leaked my personal information - and the personal information of others - through various websites, IMs, phone conversations, etc. I believe Mystic Wicks has never done so. I'm the one who chose to call myself "Scott Hill" here at MW because I was so frustrated with pseudonyms at Sacred Mists. One of the ways Lorien Carrillo escaped scrutiny was to hide behind a false appellation. This would possibly be acceptable if these Sacred Mists names were actually magical names, but they are used for EVERYTHING - including the most mundane activities - at the Mists. They're just masks.

To me, these points present some of the biggest and most important differences between the two communities.

Again, I so appreciate your willingness to debate this topic. If Sacred Mists allowed debates like these, it would be a much better community.

[Scott Hill]

holy fog
by Scott Hill (copyright May 2009)

Here I was.
Like the kid who really believes
in his little orphan annie ring.
Knowing some of the rules
would have to be suspended.
I hadn't consciously acknowledged
my legendary lack of tact.

There I was.
And I started playing the crusader to that
founder/princess/sorority sister
Arch-Lady in the sky we all paid unconscious homage to
"If only... her" they scrawled in awe in diaries
while she bit her fingernails in the shadows.
She was priestess of the pursestrings
and more, where more meant little.

I could climb those ranks, yes,
but no one saw that my feet - if nothing else -
were planted in soil, not on rungs.
I wrote, "In this circle I am safe".
I should have known, but didn't know,
I was eating a pomegranate seed.
I believed it, yes, oh yes, and it's true,
but a truth in shadow that
I will never know the same way twice.

My mother's favorite weapon, charity
was bobbing in the cauldron, wasn't it?
And the council of fluff was chanting
let.it.go while drinking fairy ale
and impersonating the Romany on six figures
and saying, "It was our spell that did it,
yeah girl, I patriarched his ass!"
A spell like a cunningly hidden wardrobe
with a pretty obvious knob.
But nothing holy ever came of it.

In her last life, this princess
was administrator to the inquisition -
a recorder of names as curses
who now curses me with my name.
And now there is something less of me
but a better less
because Tyr took me out of the temple
where the comeliest fairy gets the shiniest whip

and gave me into the care of Odin
where a new student at the fog
earned my respect and my worry with a question.
If he wants so much to believe,
why can't I just let him believe?
But how can you believe in garlands
that lie dead upon the earth?

ButterflyDissected, you know a name.
A key that only someone not you
would turn. Be not tempted.
You've seen where I worship
from over the hills.
You've been told it has a price,
but it has none.

WaveDancer, you broke a trust,
but earned a greater trust
that maybe we'll know
in future lives. Be not shy.
Don't just let the waves wash over you when there are wolves nearby.
You've seen the gods I worship
from your place by the chalkboard.

LoathLorien, you'll never be at rest
and I wanted you to go for your sake.
Now I want you to stay most of all
because you may sometimes know peace,
but yours is not a life lived in peace. Be not at peace.
You've seen my artistry, such as it is:
You know those ladies need some Loki.

Here I am
where I probably knew I'd be
and they want a crusade against the infidel
and you could see me cry if
too many bloody paintbrushes hadn't crossed my cheek.
I'm proud of crying, proud of being poor enough
to have to eat ramen noodles.
And waves keep creeping forward in every strophe
so that I always wash up far downstream

I have a father and a mother,
true ones, oh so much in my life,
lovers who strain my breath
with feverish refining fire.
You insist let.it.go
and you have my e-mail and my list of questions.
One of my ribs is your tradition without your founder
and something holy did come of that.
I'm here, telling you take.it.up

[Scott Hill]

Well, Sacred Mists proved to me today that they don't want anyone to let.it.go.
I wrote yesterday to request that they remove my endorsement from their site (as I asked them to do last summer).
I wrote:
_____________________________________________________
Hello Ma'am,

It has recently come to my attention that you are using my words to promote your business without my permission. Please remove my endorsement (and any other materials with the exception of rituals that I have given you permission to use) from your website as per my request when I left the Mists. I appreciate that you are busy, so I will allow you a week's time in which to do so. Once these words are removed, I will no longer have any reason to post about my experiences at the Mists in public forums because the Mists will no longer be actively using my statement for monetary gain.

Sincerely,
Rev. Scott Hill, sometimes known as Vanamee
_______________________________________________________
They responded:
Good Friday to you Rev. Hill,
We are happy to accept your offer as outlined in your email dated May 14, 2009, wherein
you request that we remove your testimonial from our website and when done, you will
cease to post regarding your experiences at Sacred Mists College.
We ask, that as part of this agreement, you post a final response to the threads in
question, consisting of the fact that you have been in contact with Sacred Mists and
have come to a satisfactory conclusion in your association with Sacred Mists. No
details are needed or expected.
If you agree with our request, please reply with your acceptance back to me and the
testimonial will be removed within 24 hours of your agreement.
We truly regret your unsatisfactory experience with Sacred Mists and accept
responsibility for any mistakes that we made. We wish you and your family brightest
blessings and success in your future endeavors and are looking forward to hearing back
from you.
It is our hope that we are all able to move on from here with peace and light in our
hearts.
May the Goddess bless you,
Amethyst Lilyth M.
"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in
it. Begin now." - Goethe
________________________________________________________
So I responded:
Hello Ma'am,

I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood my e-mail. I'm asking you to do something ethical for the sake of ethics. I'm also asking you to do it because it's the legal action to take in regard to endorsements. I'm not making an agreement with you in order that you may prevent damage to your corporation's reputation. Indeed, I cannot enter into an agreement with you because 1) you may still be using my materials on the private portion of your website without my permission just as you're using them on the public portion of your site, 2) I cannot believe in any agreement made by a business whose members have libeled me in the past because the agreement may not be honored and 3) I cannot enter into an agreement with someone who offers a business pseudonym in place of a legal name.

I'm sorry that you continue to refuse to comply with my request, as I would love to put this situation to rest. Although I know your business has the money and influence to escape many legal repercussions, I will have to try recourse through government agencies.

Thank You for Your Time,
S.H.
"People are still trading crime for crime."
-Ani DiFranco
____________________________________________________________
Now, the FTC says this about endorsements:
"endorsements must also reflect the honest opinions, findings, beliefs, or experience of the endorser."
and
"Additionally," states the agency, "the advertiser may continue to run the advertisement only so long as he has good reason to believe that the endorser remains a bona fide user of the product."
_____________________________________________________________
In other words, the "leaders" at Sacred Mists want to force me to give up my legal right to post my opinions in public forums and offer a bogus statement of reconciliation just so they'll do what ethics and the law require them to do anyway.
I guess some people won't do what's right unless there's some kind of profit in it for them. At least this correspondence proves that a member of the SM council knows that her website contains lies that she will not remove. I wonder how many more of those endorsements are being used falsely.
So, to whomever asked me why I said Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone are associated with a criminal organization, here's further proof. Farrar and Bone are tied into a program that not only libels its former members; it's also a program that refuses to practice honest advertising.
Blessings,
Scott

[Darth Brooks]

Hey Scott, you must have really stirred the pot, man, because the website is now inactive. Looks like you put the fear of Goddess in 'em, ya did!

Have yourself a drink and pat yourself on the back! :thumbsup:

It is because of potential situations like this that it is a matter of policy for me never to involve myself in any kind of religious institution, especially such institutions that like to make a buck.

[PaganWitch]

Hey Scott, you must have really stirred the pot, man, because the website is now inactive. Looks like you put the fear of Goddess in 'em, ya did!

Have yourself a drink and pat yourself on the back! :thumbsup:

It is because of potential situations like this that it is a matter of policy for me never to involve myself in any kind of religious institution, especially such institutions that like to make a buck.

what website would that be?
if it's Sacred Mists no fear they are still up and running. :smileroll

and it appears Lady Raven answered to Scott on that blog so I hope he and they can now just move on.

Blessings.
PW

[Darth Brooks]

what website would that be?
if it's Sacred Mists no fear they are still up and running. :smileroll

Woops, nevermind. My mistake. The URL listed in the OP, however, has most certainly been taken down.

and it appears Lady Raven answered to Scott on that blog so I hope he and they can now just move on.One can always hope.

[Scott Hill]

No worries, dude. I'm moving on. Of course, I still answer inquiries via e-mail, but I hope there won't be a lot more stuff on websites. I've already said what needed to be said.

It was really annoying. I'd get told to let go and then have to answer a page full of questions. There are still a lot of questions left over at the Juvenall site, but they all 1) have been answered, but the people who asked haven't noticed, 2) contain obvious logical fallacies or 3) can be answered be clicking twice to get to the qualifications page on my website.

Carrillo's "unpology" was interesting. I've never before seen an apology that's entirely for someone else's actions. But she's good at putting words in others' mouths. It's also the first time I've seen her decline to use her (admittedly unearned) titles. I was kind of proud that she was moving slightly in the direction of humility. I think she's realized she could have learned a lot from me that she'll never know now.

As for taking the site down, it'll never happen. You can't believe how much money is behind that program. But I have helped a lot of people, which makes all the annoying time I had to spend last week worth it. And I love the poem that came from the experience.

Thanks for your concern. Hearing from someone who understands the difference between debate and flaming means more to me than hearing from half-a-dozen people who just don't get it.

[Scott Hill]

Wow. You know, I have so many better things to do than post about Sacred Mists. And it always seems that, when I get the busiest, the Misters shove themselves back into my life.

They were using an old endorsement of mine against FTC rules. So I asked them to take it down. Lilyth, a Sacred Mists representative, told me that they'd only do the legal thing and take the endorsement down if I struck a deal with them saying I wouldn't post any more about the Mists. Which just tells me that they have something to hide. So I went to the BBB with my complaint. Here's the response I got:

_____________________________________

On June 02, 2009, the business provided the following information:
Contact Name and Title: Lorien Carrillo,President
Contact Phone: 707-255-8005
Contact Email: raven@workingwitches.com
To whom it may concern,
The testimonial of our program that Mr. Hill wrote of his own accord and provided us with permission to use was removed from our website on 5/14/2009, which was the very date on which we received his first and only request to do so. This is something he is well aware of.
His statement made within this claim of his being threatened by our council members is another far reaching, untrue and libelous statement. Mr. Hill's continuing libel and defamation is on record through various online websites, all of which are currently under review by our lawyer in Napa, CA. This current complaint will be forwarded to his law office, as well.
To reiterate, Mr. Hill's testimonial is not on our website and was removed immediately upon my receipt of his request that he sent directly to one of my staff members, rather than the company itself, on May 14, 2009. This appears to be one day prior to his issuing this complaint through the BBB.
I would like to state in closing that while Mr. Hill left our program due to a series of unfortunate disciplinary actions, we do wish him well and hope that can move forward without continuing his attempts to inflict harm on our business nor the persons who work within it.
I want to thank you for your time and assistance with this matter and hope that this response is sufficient to close the complaint as resolved. We appreciate the opportunity to share our experience with this former student and our thoughts on the issue at hand.
Should you require additional information at any time, please do not hesitate to contact us directly. We are more than happy to assist.
Many kind regards,
- Sacred Mists
_________________________________________

There is one obvious lie here (and who knows how many other hidden lies). If the endorsement was removed on the 14th of May, why did Lilyth try to strike a deal to silence me on the 15th? Yep - that's the date on Lilyth's letter; as I understand it, even the rich and powerful can't change space-time to suit their needs.

So I'm here to let people know what's going on. You can't even register a legitimate complaint when these people use your words without permission (and in clear defiance of FTC regulations). Most people would just say, "Sorry we left your testimonial up. We'll remove it right away." But not vindictive Lorien Carrillo. She has to threaten to get the law involved even though it's clearly she and her organization who are acting immorally and illegally.

And what is this disciplinary action she mentions? When I was at the Mists, there wasn't even a set of guidelines for behavior (although Lorien had appointed a secret coven member to keep a "bad behavior" file on me and others - I just never knew what was in it).

So come on, Lorien. Send me a subpoena so we can have our day in court or stop the harassment and leave me alone. I will keep people informed of the unethical things you do as long as I'm able, but I'm tired of it. Let's get this over with and move on with our lives.

[PaganWitch]

No worries, dude. I'm moving on.

surrrreeeee you are...I mean we can allll see that....all over the internet we can see you are moving on dude.

:thumbsup:

[Scott Hill]

Hello PaganWitch,

I appreciate your posts, despite the sarcasm. Are you sure you are posting of your own initiative? I myself noticed Ms. Carrillo's Manson-like charm when I was at the Mists. I would hate to think you are just doing her bidding without thinking about why. As neo-pagans, I think we need to turn to our guides and gods before we turn to people - especially if those people run organizations that perpetrate crimes and commit themselves to immorality.

You seem to think I have no right to discuss the crimes and campaigns of which I was victim. Why is that? Do you feel Sacred Mists is above the law?

I would really like to know why you feel the way you do. Please feel free to share. Don't worry - you haven't, and won't, hurt my feelings.

[Phoenix Blue]

Enough drama. Save it for some other forum and give others a chance to provide input on the original topic.

[Titania]

I am new here and when I stumbling across this thread I was afraid Mystic Wycks was one of those places that allow what they call witch wars. I am happy to know that MW does not allow flaming particularly against those who can't defend themselves against accusions. Blessed be to all and I am sorry Scott had a bad experience but probably it is time to move forward. I hope it's ok that I said this I don't want to make anyone mad.

[Shaedema]

I've had my own issues with Scared Mists. I won't go into detail since that will probably just dig up memories I could do without. I will say though that because of that site I found my way here. So in that regard I'd actually have to thank Scared Mists for being a stumbling block.

I sincerely hope that others won't have the problems and find their way here on a much shorter path than I did.

[Spiral Goddess]

I have no experience with Sacred Mists but I have read this thread and the corresponding thread at the Juvenall Wilson site with interest.

I wonder if those who are happy at Sacred Mists stay at Sacred Mists, and therefore are not found at other forums on a regular basis.

On the other hand, of those who have left Sacred Mists, we might assume that for one reason or another, Sacred Mists was not the right place for them.

My point being, while I agree that this is a valid discussion thread, I am not so sure that it can be unbiased because of the circumstances. Those who have left Sacred Mists certainly have the right to discuss why they did so, but if you take a group of people who have left Sacred Mists and put them on one side of the room and take another group of people who are currently attending Sacred Mists and put them on the other side of the room, and then ask them what they thought about their experience, percentage-wise you will get more negative answers from those people who are no longer with Sacred Mists and more positive answers from those who are still attending.

No school is perfect and no school is going to be right for everybody.

My suggestion is to take all opinions with a grain of salt and then do the research yourself before you make a decision. Trust yourself and your gut feelings. You won't go wrong :)

Blessed be to all,

SG

[Sparkles]

Exactly right, SG. We all have a responsibility to be involved, to think for ourselves, to ask questions, and to gather information from all sources, both positive and negative, in order to make our own determination. Each school or website has something to offer; but we need to ask questions, to decide for ourselves what is important to us and what is not important to us in order to find a place that works for us. Our experiences, whether good or bad, positive or negative, are in part determined by our choices.

As Wiccans, we believe that Goddess and God come to each of us in an individual way, and we believe that what is right for Sparkles is not necessarily right for SpiralGoddess. Thus, Sparkles can share her experiences with others, as can SpiralGoddess, but neither has the right to find issues with the choices of the other. Especially when it comes to spiritual matters.

*grin* Hope you don't mind my using you in my example, SG.

[PaganWitch]

Exactly right SG!
Not every place is right for everyone. My advice is to check it out for yourself if you wish to, if you don't that's ok too.
My reasons for leaving was that mundane was not allowing me the time for my studies so why pay $20. a month when I couldn't get out of it the whole package. I didn't have time to visit the boards or attend study halls or rituals so I left until mundane life slows down. Now that things seem to be calming down I am thinking of signing back up at Sacred Mists at the end of this month, hopefully in time for Litha celebrations. Yay!
Reminds me I need to call Lady Raven about returning to my 2nd degree studies there.
And I think you are also right that many that attend Sacred Mists don't find themselves needing to go anywhere else for their studies so you won't see them all over the net attending other schools. But I do know of some that do take part in other schools/ discussion forums. There is just so much to see and do there that it does not leave a lot of time LOL
I've also heard it's grown quite a lot in the time I've been away and the new Historical Paganism Course they just started offering sounds right up my alley so I may check that out.
PW

[Spiral Goddess]

No Sparkles, I don't mind! I hug you and PaganWitch! You are both wise and wonderful.

Blessed be!

SG