Witch/Warlock

[AterCorax]

I was just reading an interesting essay on witchvox, and I was thinking: Is there really any difference b/w the words 'witch' and 'warlock'? They both are viewed as 'insults.' So, I was thinking, why is calling oneself 'witch' any better than calling oneself 'warlock'? I highly doubt that the word 'witch' was used by anyone but Christians to descibe a worker of magic (which they viewed as evil). So, I'm thinking, what's all this about 'reclaiming' the word 'witch'? Why not 'reclaim' the word 'warlock' as well then?

Link: http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2004/e_warlock.html

-Ater

PS: I'm not sure if this is in the right forum...

[RhiannynWildseed]

Probably because the term 'warlock' in Old English means 'oath-breaker' or someone that breaks their agreements, word, or pledge. So being a warlock would not be a good thing. There are cultures that place a lot of value on one's word, so to be foresworn would probably make you an outcast. No one would have any dealings with you after that.

And that's not to mention that the old wise men and women who were healers were usually referred to as being witches. The word 'witch' didn't become a bad thing until Catholicism took over and began persecuting anyone not of their faith. These were the same folks that perverted (my husbands term, not mine) the words 'pagan' and 'heathen' yet today those words have more or less been 'reclaimed.'

Rhiannyn

[thok_ragnarok]

I was just reading an interesting essay on witchvox, and I was thinking: Is there really any difference b/w the words 'witch' and 'warlock'? They both are viewed as 'insults.' So, I was thinking, why is calling oneself 'witch' any better than calling oneself 'warlock'? I highly doubt that the word 'witch' was used by anyone but Christians to descibe a worker of magic (which they viewed as evil). So, I'm thinking, what's all this about 'reclaiming' the word 'witch'? Why not 'reclaim' the word 'warlock' as well then?

Link: http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2004/e_warlock.html

-Ater

PS: I'm not sure if this is in the right forum...

why label yourself? Or even better, why label yourself something when the original believers of your religion never called themselves that?

[mara]

I thought it was an interesting article, and thought that he put up a decent agument for it..why not use it if you want to.

[AterCorax]

RhiannynWildseed, 'oath-breaker' would refer to one who has left Christian beliefs (therefore broak an oath to the Christian God). That would be the logical meaning, even more since warlocks are considered 'male witches.'

Definitions (in Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary) of 'warlock': one that breaks faith, the Devil 1. a man practicing the black arts: SORCERER -- compare WITCH 2. CONJURER

Both 'witch' and 'warlock' being (most logically) Christian-derived words, I don't see why you see 'warlock' as only an 'oath-breaker.' Then why not see 'witch' and only 'old hag; woman practicing often black witchcraft with aid of devil/familiar'?

Have you read the essay I kindly provided a link to?

-Ater

[AterCorax]

thok ragnarok,

"why label yourself? Or even better, why label yourself something when the original believers of your religion never called themselves that?"

I don't see the practice of witchcraft as a religion. Also, according to your statement no one should call themselves 'witches' either. It's not like some "original believers" went around saying 'I'm a witch' or 'I practice witchcraft.'

Could you clearify what you were trying to say?

-Ater

[aluokaloo]

makes sense , I don't see any harm in it.

[Aine of the Fae]

why label yourself? Or even better, why label yourself something when the original believers of your religion never called themselves that?

Labels are an easy way to describe yourself without having to go into a 20 minute speal... thus the reason I call myself Christian Witch... It conveys what I consider myself to be. Of course with that label I end up having to go into a 40 minute speal instead of the original 20 minute speal.....

[AterCorax]

My point, basically, is that if people feel a need to 'reclaim' the word 'witch,' I don't see why 'warlock' should be left out and seen to mean just an 'oath-breaker.' Most people try to find something that would make 'witch' mean 'wise' or whatever, why not give the same resepect for 'warlock'?

-Ater

PS: And please, if you haven't read the essay, read it before you comment. That essay is the only reason I started this thread.

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

I just wrote about the reclaiming of words in regards to spirituality on my website. I think that if you feel that "witch" best describes how you relate to your spirituality, then use it. Use whatever you are comfortable with. It's your choice.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[AterCorax]

RhiannonSolana,

I agree. That's why I think the same consideration should be given to the word 'warlock' without people going 'that means oath-breaker!'

-Ater

[thok_ragnarok]

thok ragnarok,

"why label yourself? Or even better, why label yourself something when the original believers of your religion never called themselves that?"

I don't see the practice of witchcraft as a religion. Also, according to your statement no one should call themselves 'witches' either. It's not like some "original believers" went around saying 'I'm a witch' or 'I practice witchcraft.'

Could you clearify what you were trying to say?

-Ater

What I was saying was why does one need a label to justify who one is...especially a label that was created in hatred by another group. Example (and I appologize for the racism in the statement) but a mexican calling himself a spic. Why not define yourself with actions and words instead of labels.

[thok_ragnarok]

Labels are an easy way to describe yourself without having to go into a 20 minute speal... thus the reason I call myself Christian Witch... It conveys what I consider myself to be. Of course with that label I end up having to go into a 40 minute speal instead of the original 20 minute speal.....

why not say, I am Aine of the Fae, watch me, learn from me, judge me for who I am...and then if they get curious inform them...I see no need for labels

[RhiannynWildseed]

Actually, I have read the article, and sorry, but I don't agree with it. But hey, I'm entitled to that. It's my right.

To say that warlock as pertains to the meaning of 'oath-breaker' only refers to those who have left the Christian beliefs would mean that you assume all people who were labeled warlocks had been of the Christian faith. That simply cannot be so. I have known of covens even today that have used the term 'warlock' to denote a person who has turned against their group and have actively sought to harm them. Thus they were declared a 'warlock' or oath-breaker (as many coven do make you take oaths when you are initiated) and were banished.

And don't forget, back when most of the words in dictionaries today were first set down on paper, the only people who usually wrote (or copied) the books were Christian monks, be they Dominican, Fransican (sp), Gregorian......ect. So naturally definitions were going to be recorded with a bit of a religious bent to them. Also, history is written by the victors. That doesn't mean they were right.

I know that if someone were to refer to my husband as a warlock today, both he and I would be offended. That is just how we choose to see it. But then, we don't call ourselves witches either, we are eclectic pagans, and by that I don't mean "country dwellers." :farmerjoe ;)

[AterCorax]

RhiannynWildseed,

"I have known of covens even today that have used the term 'warlock' to denote a person who has turned against their group and have actively sought to harm them. Thus they were declared a 'warlock' or oath-breaker (as many coven do make you take oaths when you are initiated) and were banished."

That only shows the ignorance of the coven itself, it doen't show anything about the word 'warlock.'

As for your husband and you being offended if he were called a 'warlock,' I have only this to say: There are those who practice magic (with herbs, spirits, etc.) who would be offended if someone dared call them a 'witch.' Does this mean that the word 'witch' shouldn't be used by anyone to describe themselves (who practice the same or similar stuff)? I think not.

-Ater

[Llewyth]

I like "witch" personaly. But I only say it when I know people are of open mind. Otherwise I say "pagan". Explaining the witch thing to close minded people takes too long and is not worth the effort. I just don't like the "war" in "warlock". But that's kinda slly too. :)

[ravynbynorthwynd]

before getting into looking into wiccan and nature based religions, i never knew warlock meant oath-breaker. i always have thought it meant a male witch. ask the random passer-by and see if they don't see it the same way...

[Willowjc]

[B]Hi my name is Willow and I'm new in my opinion a Warlock is an oath breaker I believe Warlock is a negative word.........a Warlock is NOT a male witch....a male witch is called a Witch. A witch...which I do call myself....is a follower of the old religion. If you told e you were a Warlock I would believe that you are on the darkside of things that you shake hands with the Devil. If thats the path you choose ..I will not look at you in a bad way. I just choose to be Pagan. I don't judge anyone I'm open to listening but in the end I'll always be a Witch.

[Theres]

i don't consider the word witch to be an insult. but i DO consider the word warlock to be silly.

and 'wicce' (pronounced witch-ay) does mean wise, if that matters. so whatever the ancient adversaries called them (us) matters not a jot to me.

[RhiannynWildseed]

That only shows the ignorance of the coven itself, it doen't show anything about the word 'warlock.'

As for your husband and you being offended if he were called a 'warlock,' I have only this to say: There are those who practice magic (with herbs, spirits, etc.) who would be offended if someone dared call them a 'witch.' Does this mean that the word 'witch' shouldn't be used by anyone to describe themselves (who practice the same or similar stuff)? I think not.

-Ater

As to the first statement, that's just your opinion. It doesn't make you wrong, but it doesn't make you right either.

As to the second, actually, some do get offended by being called a witch, I agree. They, like myself and others, like to be to be called PAGAN. When you get down to it, I do practice elements of Witchcraft, so if that makes me a witch, then hey, maybe I'm a witch, but I am now and always will be a Pagan.



....a male witch is called a Witch.

Exactly. All my male friends who practice call themselves witches.

Rhiannyn

[LadyTrinity]

the word witch sounds female, but yes warlock means oath breaker. there is nothing wrong with a man calling him self a witch, im sure there is nothing wrong with a loyal person calling them selves warlock either. :woot:

[turtlerain46]

Personally the only time I care if someone calls me a witch is if it is meant with fowl intent. I strongly believe that it is not the word that matters, but the intent. I'm actually quite obcessed with everything "witchy". It reminds me of everything that people went through in the past for just practicing traditional herbal medicine, ect. Actually many people in the past practiced what we would define as "witchcraft" even during the salem witch trials for example, when they were building houses they would always take gold ect and put it in a loose brick in the fireplace so that finacial hardships would never effect those living in the home. I think you should be able to define yourself as best as you see fit. Religion is a personal thing, and I don't thing time should be wasted on words that are o.k to use to define yourself.

[Phoenix Blue]

So, I'm thinking, what's all this about 'reclaiming' the word 'witch'? Why not 'reclaim' the word 'warlock' as well then?
What, and admit we grew up watching way too much "Bewitched"? I think not! :p

[Djiril]

Actually many people in the past practiced what we would define as "witchcraft" even during the salem witch trials for example, when they were building houses they would always take gold ect and put it in a loose brick in the fireplace so that finacial hardships would never effect those living in the home.
Are you sure that was meant as a charm? To me that sounds like a more practical step of hiding money in case you need it.

[Old Witch]

I'm a witch and proud of it! When it all comes down to it though..........witch and warlock are just words......people will make of them what they will..........
Ain't gonna sweat it........

[OriginalWacky]

I was just reading an interesting essay on witchvox, and I was thinking: Is there really any difference b/w the words 'witch' and 'warlock'? They both are viewed as 'insults.' So, I was thinking, why is calling oneself 'witch' any better than calling oneself 'warlock'? I highly doubt that the word 'witch' was used by anyone but Christians to descibe a worker of magic (which they viewed as evil). So, I'm thinking, what's all this about 'reclaiming' the word 'witch'? Why not 'reclaim' the word 'warlock' as well then?

Link: http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2004/e_warlock.html


I have absolutely no quarrel with someone wanting to call themselves a warlock. In fact, I know a few who do. I'm not quite sure what the obsession is with labels, although I understand that they certainly make communication easier.

[WynnJera]

http://www.stormpages.com/wynnjera/worlocks.htm

Today, a witch is a woman or a man who practices a life-affirming,
Earth-and-nature-oriented religion, honoring divinity in female as well as
(or instead of) male aspects, and practicing magick (spelled so as to
distinguish it from stage illusions and parlour tricks].

There are many different traditions of witches, encompassing many beliefs in
addition to these. Some traditions are practiced by women only, and
recognize only the divine feminine, the Goddess. Others include men and
recognize a male god in addition to the Goddess. Some traditions may date
back to before the Spanish Inquisition, others have been in existence for
only a few years. The strength of the witches' religion (also called the
Craft or Wicca) lies in its diversity. It is a living, growing, religious tradition.
As a religion, the Craft is a revival and/or reconstruction of the
pre-Christian religions of Europe, especially Northern Europe (giving us
Celtic and Norse traditions), and elsewhere
Paganism "Neo-paganism" embraces an eclectic array of sects, some
worshipping pre-Christian gods and goddesses, others promoting a mix of
mysticism and radical ecological awareness.

Witch comes from the Anglo-Saxon wicce (meaning witch), derived in turn from
an Indo-European root word meaning to bend or change or do magic/religion
(making it related to wicker, wiggle, and even vicar). It is possibly
related to the Old Norse vitki (meaning wizard) derived from root words
meaning wise one or seer. Warlock, (rarely used, for male witches) is from
the Old Norse varlokkur, Meaning spirit-song (not oath-breaker). {This word
history is not accepted by all; some dictionaries do use the oath-breaker
etymology - CAE} Related words are pagan, meaning a country dweller, and
heathen, meaning dweller on the heath, both of which peoples were the
European equivalent of the Native Americans and other indigenous, nature-worshipping people.

I for one would rather be called warlock " spirit song " than " Oath breaker "

We are all family here so I do not see why we can not use the Term warlock as an honor and compliment

Main Entry: warlock
Pronunciation: -"läk
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English warloghe, from Old English w[AE]rloga one that
breaks faith, the Devil, from w[AE]r faith, troth + -loga (from lEogan to
lie); akin to Old English w[AE]r true -- more at VERY, LIE
Date: 14th century
1 : a man practicing the black arts : SORCERER -- compare WITCH
2 : CONJURER

Ok all I have to say here is if you break up any name or word and translate
bits and peices of coarse you will get a different meanings ~ that is what
happened to the Warlock name was picked apart and now stands in the history
as oath breaker or traitor as per what the christians saw them as instead of
the old norse meaing of Spirit Song ~

Main Entry: 1witch
Pronunciation: 'wich
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard
& wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old
English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wIh holy -- more at
VICTIM
Date: before 12th century
1 : one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers;
especially : a woman practicing usually black witchcraft often with the aid
of a devil or familiar : SORCERESS -- compare WARLOCK
2 : an ugly old woman : HAG
3 : a charming or alluring girl or woman
- witch·like /'wich-"lIk/ adjective
- witchy /'wi-chE/ adjective

Main Entry: sorcerer
Pronunciation: 'sor-s&-r&r, 'sors-r&r
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
: a person who practices sorcery : WIZARD

Main Entry: 1wizard
Pronunciation: 'wi-z&rd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wysard, from wis, wys wise
Date: 15th century
1 archaic : a wise man : SAGE
2 : one skilled in magic : SORCERER
3 : a very clever or skillful person

Main Entry: 2sage
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : one (as a profound philosopher) distinguished for wisdom
2 : a mature or venerable man of sound judgment

Main Entry: 2dowse
Pronunciation: 'dauz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): dowsed; dows·ing
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1894
intransitive senses : to use a divining rod
transitive senses : to find (as water) by dowsing

[Theres]

Today, a witch is a woman or a man who practices a life-affirming,
Earth-and-nature-oriented religion, honoring divinity in female as well as
(or instead of) male aspects, and practicing magick (spelled so as to
distinguish it from stage illusions and parlour tricks.

i'm sorry, but there are WAY to many inaccuracies in there for me to embrace that as a definition.
having spent 20 years as an agnostic witch (before the last 10 as a Wiccan), i certainly can't accept an 'anything oriented religion' as valid. nor was much of what i was doing then 'life affirming' (i'm not even sure what that means).

[Pol]

I thought witch came from wicce/wicca/wiccacraeft or whatever. Maybe not.

[mcc]

...I really probably shouldn't say this but honestly all I can think of whenever I hear the word "Warlock" is Dragon Warrior for the NES.

http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/DragonWarrior/Images/Mon-Warlock.gif

That was the second-level "wizard" monster in that game... the Warlock. There were a whole bunch of them camped out on the far side of the first swamp, and they were really useful when you were levelling up. They cast "sleep" a lot.

I just can't help it, that was the first place I ever heard the word so now I can't hear people discussing Warlocks without thinking of a little man in a red cloak...

[Aldrick]

From what I know of the word, Warlock was an old Scottish word for Male Demon (or Devil)

As for either being an insult I've never known anyone to consider them as such however if called a Warlock I will state that I'm not a Warlock and that it's technically an incorrect term, however I take no offence to it.

[Theres]

From what I know of the word, Warlock was an old Scottish word for Male Demon (or Devil)

demon... a word probably more misunderstood than warlock (which i believe was of Saxon origin).
for clarification, see my post (#3) in this thread (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=56827).

[SilentDreams]

I dont really care. Its my body/life/choices so I'll call myself what I want :) Something tells me they just came up with warlock because well people are so set on seperating genders...

[Willowjc]

If your a WARLOCK your a WARLOCK male or female just like a witch but the word its self is associated with the devil

[AterCorax]

[B]Hi my name is Willow and I'm new in my opinion a Warlock is an oath breaker I believe Warlock is a negative word.........a Warlock is NOT a male witch....a male witch is called a Witch. A witch...which I do call myself....is a follower of the old religion. If you told e you were a Warlock I would believe that you are on the darkside of things that you shake hands with the Devil. If thats the path you choose ..I will not look at you in a bad way. I just choose to be Pagan. I don't judge anyone I'm open to listening but in the end I'll always be a Witch.

Umm, where do I start? There are so many opinions and downright wrong things in you statement, that I won't go into it too deeply.

To start off, statements like "a Warlock is NOT a male witch" are pure OPINION. I could just as well say: a witch is NOT a male/female/[insert whatever]. Do you see how annoying it is when you state opinion as fact? Definition of fact: Something that is agreed upon by the majority.

Then, when I thought we were over the worst, you just had to add this: "A witch...which I do call myself....is a follower of the old religion."

Can we say 'wishful thinking'? (And no, I'm not trying to be mean here.) The 'old religion'? For your information (aka FYI, lol), the most agreed upon and logical definition of witchcraft is the practice of magic. Yes, I know it's 'cool' to think that you're practicing the 'old religion' like in the Mists of Avalon, but it gets old (no pun intended) after awhile!

"If you told e you were a Warlock I would believe that you are on the darkside of things that you shake hands with the Devil."

First, what's wrong with the 'darkside'? Aren't you like one of those people who preach about 'balance'? Also, this statement gives the impression that you believe in "the Devil."

Just because 'warlocks' in Charmed are seen as evil, doesn't mean they are. : ) Okay?

"I don't judge anyone I'm open to listening but in the end I'll always be a Witch."

Are you sure you spelled the last word right? In this last sentence you say "I don't judge anyone I'm open to listening..." Umm, did you read all the things you wrote before making that statement?

Okay, so I guess I did go into your post deeper than I wanted to, but I could've said a lot more.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

If your a WARLOCK your a WARLOCK male or female just like a witch but the word its self is associated with the devil

Sorry to do this again, but I just had to reply!

Umm, if 'warlock' is associated with the devil, then waht is 'witch' associated with?*

*Answer: the devil.

What were you trying to say with this statement?

-Ater

[AterCorax]

For the record,

I do not plan on calling myself a 'warlock,' I just consider myself a pagan.

As I said before, the point of me starting this thread was to show that the word 'warlock' has as much as sh** coming with it as the word 'witch.' AND, if someone decides to 'reclaim' the word 'warlock' and call themselves that, I don't think it would be right for you to act all high-and-mighty and tell them: 'but that means you're an oath-breaker!'

I'm done ranting for now.

Have a good day, y'all! : )

-Ater

[Pol]

I think the conflict here is that the word warlock does not have a good origin, and has always had the same meaning. Not sure, but that's what I've gathered.

[AterCorax]

I think the conflict here is that the word warlock does not have a good origin, and has always had the same meaning. Not sure, but that's what I've gathered.

No, the conflict here is that BOTH 'witch' and 'warlock' don't have a "...good origin" and have "...always had the same meaning."

Why do you think that a female psychic might have been called a sorceress (sp?) in 'olden' times as a gesture of respect, and a 'witch' as an insult?

-Ater

[Mab]

Labels are an easy way to describe yourself without having to go into a 20 minute speal... thus the reason I call myself Christian Witch... It conveys what I consider myself to be. Of course with that label I end up having to go into a 40 minute speal instead of the original 20 minute speal.....

LOL...so true!!!

[Willowjc]

WOW!!!!! I believe what I believe and if you read my mssage right ou would know I'm PAGAN I DO NOT believe in the devil...thankyou WARLOCK hasw ALWAYS been associated with the devil ALWAYS witch however was not at the beginning but later. I feel you take things WAY too seriously, and if my spelling is not up to pare SO WHAT. And I LOVE the old ways and I'm a WITCH and I still believe that a WARLOCK is NOT a MALE witch.....if you don't like it then so what you believe what you believe I'll believe what I believe who says were both not wrong....hhhhmmmmmm? Even if we are who cares? PLUS if you told me you were a warlock I would not look badly on you ..like I said bfore I'M NOT a JUDGEMENTAL person too each their own....and it would peak my interest and who like to get to know you to understnd your views but still it doesn't make me believe in the devil.

[Willowjc]

A WITCH to me is associated with herbs and healing and nature...no devil.

[Willowjc]

Explain something............why is it that my opinion is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong and yours is right?

[AterCorax]

Calm down, please. : )

Now,

I didn't say you believed in the devil, but that from your statement it sounded that way.

"A WITCH to me is associated with herbs and healing and nature...no devil."

The key word there is "me."

Also, there is more evidence of the word 'witch' being used as an insult or Christianity's word for magic workers (who they think are associated with the devil, because they don't follow the Christian ways) rather than a word that would have been used by any magic worker to describe themselves.

Plus, there are many modern witches who do not care a bit about nature, but they are no less witches than you. There are witches who hex, too. And so on....

"...associated with herbs and healing and nature..." (sorry to double quote)

There are Christians who do that. Does that make them witches?

Peace,

-Ater

[Aidron]

Willow, there is no need to spam.

Secondly, witches by your definition are based upon opinion, not consensus or fact. A witch by consensus and actual fact (Merriam-Webster definitions out, thank you) is one who practices the art and science of magic, and in that system there can be a wide variety of styles, from ceremonial/high magic to folk/low magic. From runes and herbs to astrology and trance work to psychokinesis and astral projection.

Lastly, it is the way you present yourself and your opinion that causes others to jump to the conclusion that it is invalid and unworthy of being considered I would imagine. Settle down, slow down long enough to type properly (and especially lose the extensive use of the cap locks key), and quit proclaiming your opinions as truth. It's not only annoying, but the worst part is it makes people who do this often seem fiercely rigid and considered unworthy of being listened to.

[AterCorax]

Explain something............why is it that my opinion is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong and yours is right?

I didn't say my opinions were more valid than yours. That's why they're called opinions.

Although, I have to admit, some of your 'opinions' are more based on wishful thinking than on logical conclusions (like mine).

-Ater

[Willowjc]

I'll go my own way then good bye.

[Pol]

Witch, n. [OE. wicche, AS. wicce, fem., wicca, masc.; perhaps the same word as AS. w[=i]tiga, w[=i]tga, a soothsayer (cf. Wiseacre); cf. Fries. wikke, a witch, LG. wikken to predict, Icel. vitki a wizard, vitka to bewitch.]

Warlock, n. [OE. warloghe a deceiver, a name or the Devil, AS. w?rloga a belier or breaker of his agreement, word, or pledge; w?r covenant, troth (aki? to L. verus true; see Very) + loga a liar (in comp.), le['o]gan to lie.]

So, as we can see here, the word Warlock means a deciever, or liar - one who breaks his word.
Whereas the word Witch comes from the actions/practices of a witch.

Just because people used the term witch to become synonymous with hag does not mean it began as such. However, the word warlock comes from words meaning to decieve or lie.

[Pol]

One more thing:

Also, there is more evidence of the word 'witch' being used as an insult or Christianity's word for magic workers (who they think are associated with the devil, because they don't follow the Christian ways) rather than a word that would have been used by any magic worker to describe themselves.
Not really correct at all. Words have roots, not just uses.

[AterCorax]

So, as we can see here, the word Warlock means a deciever, or liar - one who breaks his word.
Whereas the word Witch comes from the actions/practices of a witch.

Umm, if you say so. BTW, did you get this info from an ancient dictionary or a modern one?

"Whereas the word Witch comes from the actions/practices of a witch."

Umm, let's use the book called 'dictionary' to see what those "actions/practices" are exactly:

1: one that is credited with usu. malignant supernatural powers; esp : a woman practicing usu. black witchcraft often with the aid of a devil or with familiar : SORCERESS -- compare WARLOCK
2: an ugly old woman : HAG

I think I made my point, don't you?

Also Pol, are you aware that words often change meaning over a long period of time?

-Ater

[AterCorax]

One more thing:


Not really correct at all. Words have roots, not just uses.

Umm, what does the root of 'd*ck' matter if someone calls you that and it's not your name?

-Ater

[Pol]

We're not talking about using witch as an insult. We're talking about using it in accordance with the original meaning.

The "ancient" roots of one word means one who practices witchcraft, the other "ancient" roots mean "one who breaks an oath."

There are many other meanings besides the dark arts. And yes, witch and warlock can by synonymous, as warlock was a name given by Christians to witches as an insult.

You're running around with circular reasoning and nitpicking semantics. It's not going to accomplish much.

Give me the original meaning of Witch, where it came from an insulting term, and show me how warlock means anything but liar/oath breaker.

[Pol]

Also, the meaning of witch was corrupted - whereas the meaning of warlock was always corrupt.
There's really not a lot to argue here.

[AterCorax]

There are many other meanings besides the dark arts. And yes, witch and warlock can by synonymous, as warlock was a name given by Christians to witches as an insult.

First: root and meaning are very different things.

Umm, also, I'm sorry to have to say this: Witch was a name given to magic workers by Christians (used as an insult). There is no evidence that 'witch' was a word known to be used before Christians/Christianity. Look at the bible, a fairly old book.

Pol, your logic is flawed by wishful thinking. : )

-Ater

[Pol]

Wishful of what?

You seem to think that your opinions are correct because they are founded soley on logic and reason.

Roots and meaning are everything in this discussion.
The word witch goes back beyond Christianity.
Give me the original meaning of Witch, where it came from an insulting term, and show me how warlock means anything but liar/oath breaker.

[Pol]

One more thing:
The word witch used in the bible was translated from an already existing language, used to cover many words used for different types of witches as we call them today.

[AterCorax]

Opinions based on logic and reason are more factual (or accepted as such) than those founded merely on wishful thinking.

"The word witch goes back beyond Christianity."

You just stated you opinion (made up of wishful thinking) as fact.

If you show me some logical (and real) evidence that makes your statement true, I will apologize for my use of 'logic' and 'reason' to create my own opinions of what hasn't been proven as truth to me or any other interested human as far as I know.

Unil you have something intelligent to offer, please stop repeating opinions based soely on wishful thinking.

Good day,

-Ater

[AterCorax]

One more thing:
The word witch used in the bible was translated from an already existing language, used to cover many words used for different types of witches as we call them today.

Ya, if you say so. : )

Also, just because in my language (Serbo-Croatian) 'witch' is translated to "vestica/vjestica" and 'warlock' translates to "vestac/vjestac" doesn't mean that they have different meanings. (Also, notice how in my language the translation of 'warlock' is just a masculane form of 'witch.' Just like "brujo" and "bruja" in Spanish.)

One more thing, didn't Christianity exist before the English language came to be?

-Ater

[Pol]

I have just shown you what the dictionary gives as roots for each word.
Witch's root is wicce/wicca, female and male 'ancient' words that - as far as I know - predate Christianity.

Just because some translators translate warlock into witch doesn't mean it is witch.

How is my argument based on wishful thinking, when all I have given are facts on the semantics?

And, yes and no. Christianity followed Rome into the UK and other parts of pagan Europe. These people already had lives and languages, most of which give something to the modern English language.
Anglo-Saxon language gives most, as well as the name (English=Anglo).

Perhaps the problem here is that warlock is usually mistranslated in your native language.

What's with this 'wishful thinking' stuff? It doesn't make any sense.

[Pol]

Also, where is all of your logic and reason? Where is your proof? You've given nothing but 'you're wrong,' the whole thread through.

[purple]

dont be so negitive one can give new meaning to an old word with a new attitude smiles......purple

[purple]

I was just reading an interesting essay on witchvox, and I was thinking: Is there really any difference b/w the words 'witch' and 'warlock'? They both are viewed as 'insults.' So, I was thinking, why is calling oneself 'witch' any better than calling oneself 'warlock'? I highly doubt that the word 'witch' was used by anyone but Christians to descibe a worker of magic (which they viewed as evil). So, I'm thinking, what's all this about 'reclaiming' the word 'witch'? Why not 'reclaim' the word 'warlock' as well then?

Link: http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2004/e_warlock.html

-Ater

PS: I'm not sure if this is in the right forum...
dont be so negitive one can give new meaning to an old word with a new attitude smiles......purple

[AterCorax]

"I have just shown you what the dictionary gives as roots for each word.
Witch's root is wicce/wicca, female and male 'ancient' words that - as far as I know - predate Christianity."

You're right, you can't be sure if wicce/wicca are ancient words. And let's say they were, then why is 'warlock' basically a definition of 'male witch': ...SORCERESS -- compare WARLOCK.... This shows that the word 'warlock' has multiple meanings (as so many other freaking words in every langauage).

You're basically saying that if the root of 'warlock' comes from 'oath-breaker' that 'warlock' as a word has no right to any other meaning. So, do you think that people should stop using the word 'cool' because its root has nothing to do with something people find interesting/fun? Your logic falls flat to the structure of languages and how people use them.

I didn't say you were wrong in any of my posts. I just pointed out that your opinions make less sense, therefore fall flat.

What's with you and these roots? Do we live in some ancient world where words have to be used exactly like they were supposed (I say this because even word roots could have been modified over time) to be meant to?

-Ater

PS: Here are some other words for you to rant about (usage vs. roots): cool, dick, hot, stupid, taste....

[AterCorax]

dont be so negitive one can give new meaning to an old word with a new attitude smiles......purple

I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly. That I'm being rude in my ways? Well, I can't argue with that.... :lilangel:

I myself think that people should be able to call themselves whatever they want without people like Pol b*tching about why the root of a word disagrees with its multiple meanings.

-Ater

[Pol]

Your argument is that both witch and warlock are insulting words, and that warlocks should be able to call themselves thus without it being an insult.

However, warlock is synonymous with male witch because people insulted them with such a name.
Witch is an insult because people took the name and warped it into an insult.

Queer is now used for homosexuals, when it actually means bizarre or strange. That does not mean that the word queer never meant bizarre or strange and as such is not insulting to gays. It still means the same thing, and people still use it against gays for the same reason.

It seems to me you're just trying to argue now, so I'm going to leave you to your party of being right and everyone else being involved in wishful thinking.

[AterCorax]

First off, I haven't met any gays as of yet that find the word 'queer' offensive. I'm sure some do, but I just haven't met them.

My point is that the true (original) meanings of 'witch' and 'warlock' are unknown. We can only speculate as to their meanings, and I think that looking at it logically, these words were probably coined by early Christians to be meant as insults or whatever. However, since you find your logic in the roots of words, you can't really look beyond that.

Well, it has been nice talking with you.

As they say, to each his own....

-Ater

[Pol]

Actually, the original meanings of the words are known. One is a combonation of words meaning oath breaker, and one is what users or witchcraft used to call themselves.
So your argument is gone.

[Aidron]

Actually, the original meanings of the words are known. One is a combonation of words meaning oath breaker, and one is what users or witchcraft used to call themselves.
So your argument is gone.


This would be the definition of each word, not their roots. :rolleyes:

[AterCorax]

Ditto to what Raven said.

Pol, you obviously don't get it.

-Ater

[Pol]

Root:
Linguistics.
The element that carries the main component of meaning in a word and provides the basis from which a word is derived by adding affixes or inflectional endings or by phonetic change.

The root of the word IS the meaning.

What don't I get?
You have yet to show me where Witch comes from a bad meaning (whereas I have shown where it comes from with good meaning), and/or where warlock has ever meant something good.

The argument here is like saying "well, I'm going to start calling myself an idiot. Sure, idiot means a lot of bad stuff, but I feel that - with time - I can make idiot mean something good."

Warlock has never, ever had a good meaning.

[AterCorax]

Pol, you're a lost case. You have obviously not been reading my posts very seriously (if at all).

Talk to me when you stop living in the dictionary or that other world where you are sure what warlock or witch were used like. Unless you somehow created those words, how can you be so sure? 'Cause of the root?

Your views on language usage are less than intelligent.

-Ater

[Black RiverWolf]

okay im going to read the essay here in a minute but i do have comment why on earth would you go and tell someone to go to the bible to get what word means. the bible itself has gone through a tremendous amount of changes from when it was first written so what is it to say that its the correct usage for either word. for me i use three terms witch wiccan and pagan. so far anyone that i have met calling themselves a warlock was always seeking to harm. im am also not saying that there are witches and such that seek the same. but we are arguing over a defintion when even today both terms are used as insults. so then why don't we all just call ourselves polytheistic and be done with it. (those of us who pay resepects to more than one deity) (and im sooo very sorry if my spelling offends you but im kinda in a hurry). but to me i would find warlock more offensive than i would witch if i cared people who use those terms or any other one to try to harm needs to be burnt at the stake anyway. but if a person chooses to cal themselves one or the other than that is their right to do so and who are we to say that they can't. there have been other defintions in this thread as to what warlock means and i belive the old defintion was song singer i have to go back and look then edit myself if im wrong. but a word is a word and they only carry what ever power it is that the general public gives to them. but what public. to a christian public they are an insult or person who is a little or alot strange. but in a wiccan or pagan (scuse me) they can be taken as words that discribe a path. but then again it can also be a 13 yr old who wants to scare the crap out of someone by doing strange thing then calling thmselves a warlock (if i offened anyone there it was not ment to just give an opinon). i on the other hand when it comes to my path will continue to use either a witch wiccan or pagan.

to each their own path and own defintion on to what that is.

blessing
Black

[Pol]

Let's play a game:
State your argument and give proof for it.
You're saying my argument has no worth, yet you are not saying how it has no worth except that I am wrong, giving no reason for that accusation.
You say Witch and Warlock mean the same thing, and that Witch is only not bad because people have used it as such (or something to that affect).

They both have very, and clearly, different meanings and uses - and always have and will. They are in no way the same, and your argument holds no water until you actually post some clear evidence for what you are saying besides 'you are wrong.'

If you would like to tell me exactly what I'm missing in what you're saying, please do so with some clear thoughts and explainations.

[Pol]

Black: the word Witch has only been used insultingly by the ignorant. Those with knowledge of the word have used it correctly since they created it. In the same way that other words become bastardised (such as the word bastard :D), so has Witch.

[Willowjc]

WELL SAID..........I tried myself to deal with this person but nothing will ever get throught lets just say that he is right and we're wrong and let him have this one.

[Pol]

Aye, maybe you're right.

I have seen the holes that fill my argument, and the folly of my ways. Ater, you are clearly correct here, and so I humbly bow out of the conversation as I have nothing backing my argument, and you have so much logic you need not present your own.

[AterCorax]

Pol,

The root of warlock might be 'oath-breaker,' but this is the definition (from the dictionary, since you like it so much):

1 : a man practicing the black arts : SORCERER -- compare WITCH
2 : CONJURER

Also, your idea that 'witch' was created by magic users, and then accepted by Christians as a valid word is laughable. Where is logic in that?

As far as things go, there is NO evidence whatsoever to suggest that the word 'witch' was coined by anyone other than Christians or that it was used by any magic worker to label themselves.

"I have seen the holes that fill my argument..."

There are so many holes that I wonder how you recoginzed one from the other.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

...why on earth would you go and tell someone to go to the bible to get what word means.

I wasn't pointing to the bible for the definition of the word, but its usage. Since the bible is one of the earlier writings, and it was written by Christians, this proves my point that the word itself was probably coined by them. I doubt any magic worker in 'old' times would refer to themselves as a witch. There is more evidence that 'witch' is a Chrisitian term for a magic worker.

-Ater

[flar7]

Only the new testament was written by christians. witches appear in the old testament before the time of Saul and are known. My understanding of it is, (and if you know hebrew, correct me please) that the word witch as used in an a "bad" way in the bible is referring to a hebrew word that means, "Poisoner." So, where the english version of witch begins and what it means is like all words.....subject to change over time.

[AterCorax]

Only the new testament was written by christians. witches appear in the old testament before the time of Saul and are known. My understanding of it is, (and if you know hebrew, correct me please) that the word witch as used in an a "bad" way in the bible is referring to a hebrew word that means, "Poisoner."

I did hear about the 'poisoner' thing before.

So, where the english version of witch begins and what it means is like all words.....subject to change over time.

I totally agree with you there. :yourock:

-Ater

[SilentDreams]

Honestly can you two stop arguing? (pol, altercorax)

Its not that big of a deal. This thread was just asking a question. You two have taken up like almost three pages with fighting. Its getting really silly.

[Black RiverWolf]

Black: the word Witch has only been used insultingly by the ignorant. Those with knowledge of the word have used it correctly since they created it. In the same way that other words become bastardised (such as the word bastard :D), so has Witch.

i was agreeing with you

[Black RiverWolf]

i also agree that the meaning of words change over time but they also change meaning to the people who use them. so to get technical you're both right.

damn that was a silly argument

[Pol]

I know, I know, I was adding that it wasn't always used insultingly, and only then by the ignorant.

I never denied that the meanings of words change over time - the only point I was making is that the word warlock has always meant liar, and witch has not always been an insult.

[flar7]

part of Oxford's definition of warlock.

> Warlock
(Scottish, Anglo-Saxon) An ancient term often misused. The European derivation of Warlock means "Oath Breaker", therefore most European traditions of the Craft do not use this word. However, the Norse derivation means derives from 'vardlokkur' which meant a man with the power of binding spirits using runes, calls and knot-magic. It was also used as the label for the Gate Keepers or Guards who protected spiritual knowledge and wisdom.

and another definition...
WARLOCK-- (Saxon) 1) A traitor, a Witch who betrays the Craft, the Gods or another Witch to the christians. The worst insult one Witch can give another. Xians call a male Witch a warlock which is, as usual, incorrect.
The word comes from the Old English 'waer logga' which means literally a covenant breaker. It may be derived from the Icelandic vardlokkr which refers to a person who can summon spirits.

again referring to the term vardlokkr

Now that is relevant since some of english derives from the norse saxons in anglo-saxon. Just more to think on.

This implies that the true meaning of warlock is unclear, from witch(pun) branch of english did it derive? european or anglo-SAXON?

[AterCorax]

Silent lover, my name is Ater Corax, not "altercorax." :)

Pol, read flar7's post, which illustrates my point that you can't know for sure that 'warlock' has always meant 'liar'. Nothing is for sure.

flar7, thank you for the educational definitions.

-Ater

[Romani Vixen]

Umm, what does the root of 'd*ck' matter if someone calls you that and it's not your name?

-Ater
My friends have called each other that. But it was knowingly in jest. It's the intent!

[Romani Vixen]

Ok... has anyone consulted the Oxford English Dictionary?

[WynnJera]

Ok... has anyone consulted the Oxford English Dictionary?


just bought it today and it says ... Mine is a 3rd edition and most current

Noun ... A man who practises Witchcraft...from the old english.. traitor or Monster... Also the Devil ...and that is all that is says...

[Romani Vixen]

DUDE!!!! How much did that cost you?

They have three editions now?

[fay]

yeah but i think the main problem arises from a misunderstanding about root and meaning of words. pol is talking about the current definition of words and atercorax is talking about the original roots of words. i feel that it is a misunderstanding, plain and simple.
(however, "the truth is rarely pure and never simple" The Importance of Being Earnest - Oscar Wilde , what a play! :nyah: )

i read that essay atercorax, thanks for posting it. it was informative, i like to learn about other peoples views on things. i personally dont use either witch or warlock because of the negative connotations attached to each and the people i might say "im a witch" to are the people im telling for the first time and i dont want the first image that pops into their head to be the hollywood hag stereotype. i use wiccan, but i realise that some cant as they are witches but not wiccans.

i dont see anything wrong with reclaiming the word warlock, or if you think that the original meaning of the word was bad, then claiming it for the first time. if we want to call someone a liar or an oath breaker, then those terms are avaliable. why do we need more? some people are just greedy! :nyah:
blessed be

[Pol]

That's the thing - I'm not talking about the current meaning of any word, at all. I'm talking about - to the best of linguist's knowledge - where words come from.
As far as we know, the word Warlock comes from words wich mean oath breaker.
As far back as we can tell, the word Witch comes from the actual people who used it first - not Christians. It's an ancient word with an ancient meaning.

As for the Norse word - perhaps that is why the word warlock was used for male wizards, because it became confused with the nordic word. Nordic and Anglo languages have crossed paths quite often - but at the same time, there are many unconnected words that sound a lot the same (even in the same language!) in other languages.

The only point I'm making here is that the statement that 'witch' and 'warlock' have always had bad meaning is false and unfounded - because, as far as anyone can tell, one word has always had a bad meaning, and the other has always had a good meaning (until some began to call old women witches. just like they call nagging women bitches, which is the word for a female dog.)

[mucgwyrt]

Now that is relevant since some of english derives from the norse saxons in anglo-saxon. Just more to think on.

This implies that the true meaning of warlock is unclear, from witch(pun) branch of english did it derive? european or anglo-SAXON?

Dictionary.com says "Wærlogga" is of "Indo-European Roots".

edit: apparently wær = promise and logga = liar - so not so much of an oath breaker (originally) as someone who lies about (fakes) making an promise in the first place?

[Pol]

To whom did they make the fake promise? Hmm..

Anyway, that's something I forgot to mention in my last post - the words waer and logga, from which we get warlock, have their own seperate meanings. They did not come from warlock, warlock came from them. So, unless the scandinavians called their people liars..well. :D

[mucgwyrt]

Perhaps to the Heathens, or the Heathen Gods? Then when the pagans converted to christianity, perhaps they were referred to thusly? :whatgives

[samiaminsane]

AlterCorax, since you express such an interest in reclaiming the word warlock: What does warlock mean to you? What do you believe it originally meant?

[mucgwyrt]

OHOHOH IDEA!
Maybe warlock referred to someone who joined christianity with a false-oath, but secretly continued practising magic - there was a lot of that went on in Britain during and after the conversion (at one point there was even a plague and the country reverted to heathenism again). That would account for all the various defenitions... :confused:

[Pol]

Well, the word was also used for the devil, they say. So perhaps it could be that warlocks were wizards who pretended to go to Christianity but still practiced in secret. That'd not be all that bad of a meaning.

[Pol]

Lol! :dancy:

[Pol]

Silent lover, my name is Ater Corax, not "altercorax." :)

Pol, read flar7's post, which illustrates my point that you can't know for sure that 'warlock' has always meant 'liar'. Nothing is for sure.

flar7, thank you for the educational definitions.

-Ater


Actually, seeing as (something i and others have said a dozen times) waer and logga are seperate words which equate to liar (or, promise faker/liar), it means liar.

[fay]

OHOHOH IDEA!
Maybe warlock referred to someone who joined christianity with a false-oath, but secretly continued practising magic - there was a lot of that went on in Britain during and after the conversion (at one point there was even a plague and the country reverted to heathenism again). That would account for all the various defenitions... :confused:
maybe! sounds like an idea!

[AterCorax]

AlterCorax, since you express such an interest in reclaiming the word warlock: What does warlock mean to you? What do you believe it originally meant?
I'll answer your question when you spell my name right. :meanhead:

How hard can it be?

-Ater

*EDITED BY MOL - insults are not allowed in any language here*

[AterCorax]

Actually, seeing as (something i and others have said a dozen times) waer and logga are seperate words which equate to liar (or, promise faker/liar), it means liar.

I wouldn't be so sure. :vanish:

-Ater

[flar7]

Ok... has anyone consulted the Oxford English Dictionary?
my first quote above your question is from the Oxford, I listed it as such.

[flar7]

...The only point I'm making here is that the statement that 'witch' and 'warlock' have always had bad meaning is false and unfounded - because, as far as anyone can tell, one word has always had a bad meaning, and the other has always had a good meaning (until some began to call old women witches. just like they call nagging women bitches, which is the word for a female dog.)
and I just gave you definitions to prove that statement could be wrong. Not is, but COULD be. Warlock if derived from the norse, did not mean bad. IF. COULD. since we can never know the true founding of any language.

[flar7]

To whom did they make the fake promise? Hmm..

Anyway, that's something I forgot to mention in my last post - the words waer and logga, from which we get warlock, have their own seperate meanings. They did not come from warlock, warlock came from them. So, unless the scandinavians called their people liars..well. :D
again. read the other parts of the definition. the word could be norse in origin, in which case it does not mean "liar" "oath breaker"

[flar7]

Actually, seeing as (something i and others have said a dozen times) waer and logga are seperate words which equate to liar (or, promise faker/liar), it means liar.
again.. *sighs* read.

[Pol]

It is possible - yes, as possible as my father is your uncle. Possible, but unlikely. The linguists of the word say it comes from the words waer and logga - and given the use (insult), and the different meanings (the devil, for instance), and that it was a word from that culture, it's highly unlikely that the writers of dictionaries and linguistic professionals are incorrect.

Ater - where is evidence that it is not what we are saying? Or that witch doesn't come from wiccecraeft, but from something else entirely and insulting?

[Pol]

again.. *sighs* read.

I did read, and also pointed out how it's unlikely that it came from the norse.

[AterCorax]

Ater - where is evidence that it is not what we are saying? Or that witch doesn't come from wiccecraeft, but from something else entirely and insulting?

If you re-read my previous posts (many who were pointed in your direction) you'll see.

But I will repeat this: There is no evidence that anyone refered to themselves as a 'witch' before recently. There, however, is evidence that the word was used by Christians (i.e. the bible).

It is possible - yes, as possible as my father is your uncle. Possible, but unlikely.

Same thing could be said to everything you've said.

-Ater

[Pol]

That's not true, though. The word 'witch' was not invented by Christians. It appears in the bible only because it is the english word for 'one who uses magic.'
The word Witch comes from Anglo-Saxon wicce/wicca/wiccecraeft - and Anglo-Saxon predates Christianity.


This article (http://www.flindersclubs.asn.au/pagan/paganism/witchorigin.html) states:

Most books on modern witchcraft will tell you that the word witch is derived from the word wicca, and that this used to mean either a) to bend or shape, or b) to know. From the latter we often hear that the term Witchcraft means craft of the wise ones. Both of the above meanings are poetic, but wrong!

According to Professor Russel, from the University of California, the ultimate origin of the word witch is an Indo-European word Weik. This word had four families of derivatives, and all had something to do with magic and religion. The most relevant of these derivatives is the word Wikk, which simply meant magic or sorcery. From this particular source came the Middle German word Widden - meaning to predict. Then came the Old English word Wicca, which was pronounced Witcha and was used to designate a male witch; and Wicce, which was pronounced Witcheh and was used to designate a female witch. From these words came the Middle English term Witche, and this word eventually became the Modern English equivalent... witch.

So the original meaning of the word witch can be traced back through various forms to simply mean exactly the same thing... a witch. When Gerald Gardner wrote down his ideas about witchcraft, he chose to pronounce the word Wicca as Wikka (instead of its original form Witcha), and by consensus (or sheer laziness) this is now how everyone pronounces this word.

The word Wizard is derived from the Middle English word wis and appeared around the year 1440 meaning wise man or woman - and it is only after 1825 that the word wizard was used in a magical sense.

The term Warlock originally meant an oath breaker, or traitor. In approximately 1460 it was equated with the word witch. It was applied equally to both female as well as male witches, and there seems to be no historical justification for using the word Warlock to specifically designate a male witch. I believe that it is now only the Hollywood movie makers who still use the term in this way.

For further information about the origins of words that are relevant to the Pagan and Wiccan scene, read Professor J. B. Russel's book A HISTORY OF WITCHCRAFT - Sorcerors, Pagans and Heretics (Published by Thames and Hudson).


So, basically everything I have said.

[AterCorax]

That's not true, though. The word 'witch' was not invented by Christians. It appears in the bible only because it is the english word for 'one who uses magic.'
The word Witch comes from Anglo-Saxon wicce/wicca/wiccecraeft - and Anglo-Saxon predates Christianity.

Even if it already existed as a word that means 'one who uses magic,' is there really any evidence that a magic worker used it to label themselves? The answer is a firm no.

As for the article, I'm not really sure why it's so important. Sure, it agrees with your theory, but other than that, it serves no purpose. Nor does it have historical merit. :p

-Ater

[Pol]

Historical merit? It gives the origin of the word being discussed. These people weren't Christians at the time, they didn't run around making up bad names for everyone who still practiced magic.

[Pol]

Even if it already existed as a word that means 'one who uses magic,' is there really any evidence that a magic worker used it to label themselves? The answer is a firm no.

Yes, there is, plenty of it. The peoples called themselves that - it is their language used by them. That's plenty of evidence for most people, I should think. :drool:

[AterCorax]

Here is a more inteliggent look at what you're trying to say....

Link: http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/witch-defined.htm

The concept of the "witch" can be found in EVERY world culture and language in some form or another. Be it kahuna, hexe, strega, bruja, baobh, bacularia or makhsheyfe; the thought that lies behind it is still the same.

So -- Where did the word come from?
What does it exactly mean? -and-
How did it become such a universal principle?

Etymology
Etymology traces the development of a word-form from its earliest recorded occurrence in a language to the present day. Because language is a living entity, words, spellings and meanings are constantly changing. This means that the history of a word and its possible etymology *may not* necessarily coincide. However, I included it in my notes because many people will use etymology as a definitive factor in their arguments for the origins of the witch and witchcraft.

—WITCH—

Word's Origin
Personally, I don't think it really matters where the word 'witch' came from; after all, there is no finite way to prove or disprove its origins. Besides, I am far more interested in where the word is going, than where its' been. If you are interested in the etymology of the word "witch", visit my research page on Etymology.

witch [1] n. -es [ME wyche, from OE wice, wic; probably akin to OE wïcan to yield, give way-more at weak]: any of several trees having pliant branches.
[2] n. -es [ME wicche, from OE wicca, masculine, wizard and wicce feminine, witch; akin to OE wiccian to practice witchcraft, MHG wicken to bewitch, to divine, OE wigle divination, wiglian to divine, wïg idol, image ON yé temple -- more at victim] 1.a dialect British : Wizard, Sorcerer b.(1) : a woman practicing the black arts: sorceress <Halloween ~on a broomstick> <heard of one old ~changing herself into a pigeon -John Rhys> (2) : an ugly old woman : crone, hag <a skinny old ~ with a face like a meat ax and a voice like a buzz saw --Helen Eustis> c. (1) : one supposed to possess supernatural powers especially by compact with the devil or a familiar (2) : a magic spell : hex <it's my idea...he put the ~es on it -Helen Rich> d. or witcher -s: dowser 2 : one that bewitches <the quaint ~ memory -P.B. Shelley>; specifically : a particularly charming or alluring woman 3.a (1) : storm petrel (2) : grebe (3) or witch bird : animal b. also witch flounder: a small mouth blackish or brownish deep water flounder (Glyptocephalus cynoglossus) of the north Atlantic that is of some importance as a food dish c : witch moth.
[3] adjective : of , relating to, or used against witches <~cult> <~ doors used to ward off evil spirits>
[4] verb -ed /-ing/-es [ME wicchen, from OE wiccian to practice witchcraft] 1: bewitch 2 : dowse. [1]

Definitions and Meanings
Definitions are formed by how society utilizes the word in its culture and as cultures change so does its utlization. The question then is: what does it exactly mean to be a witch in our culture? According to many dictionaries, 'witch' in its noun form can refer to a plant, animal or person. Yet --it is the definitions pertaining to the person that is so dominant and so controversial in our society. So, how does our society use the word witch today?

Generic It simply states: a witch is a person who practices sorcery. Sorcery can include a variety of aspects such as healing, divination, magic, alchemy, necromancy, spells, herbs, meditation, etc. These practices are often an avenue within an established spiritual structure. It is the Generic interpretation that is the common link among the cultures worldwide.

How did it become such a universal principle? The reason(s) could have been: (a) synchronicity, (b) a single ancient religion, (c) cultural diffusion, or (d) just inherent human nature. --the need to explain the natural world and its inner workings.[2] Personally I think it is the combination of diffusion and inherent human nature. I strongly doubt the synchronicity and the single ancient religion theory.

Christian A witch is a person who practices the black arts and possesses supernatural powers due to a pact with the devil -also known as Satan. The origins of this definition came from the medieval period circa 1500 when it also included heretics, eccentrics, lepers, Jews and anyone else who didn't conform to the Christian Church. During this time 'witch' almost always referred to women and is evident with words like hag and crone. The reasoning behind this was that women were considered the weaker sex and thus were easily tempted by the devil. Even today, when we think of a witch we think in terms of female, although they can be male as well. Other monotheistic religions like Judaism and Islam also had similar viewpoints.

Modern A witch is a member of a particular spiritual construct often based on an amalgamation of different religious concepts and practices -and- who practices magic/sorcery within the scope of this faith. The Pagan community and other Earth based spiritualities make it clear that the practice of magic is the distinguishing factor for the description of witch. Basically it is a mutually exclusive relationship that states: not all Pagans are witches and not all witches are Pagans.

[AterCorax]

Yes, there is, plenty of it. The peoples called themselves that - it is their language used by them. That's plenty of evidence for most people, I should think. :drool:

Please, show me some of this evidence and I'll bow down to your theories.

-Ater

[Pol]

Seeing as he/she said that they are not talking about where the word came from but rather where it is going, it really doesn't relate to the whole 'the origin of the word witch is an insult used by Christians' idea.

[Pol]

Maybe that the word Witch has existed in similiar form in many different cultures which predate Christianity?

I'll quote the article again, as it says it the most simply:

..the ultimate origin of the word witch is an Indo-European word Weik. This word had four families of derivatives, and all had something to do with magic and religion. The most relevant of these derivatives is the word Wikk, which simply meant magic or sorcery. From this particular source came the Middle German word Widden - meaning to predict. Then came the Old English word Wicca, which was pronounced Witcha and was used to designate a male witch; and Wicce, which was pronounced Witcheh and was used to designate a female witch. From these words came the Middle English term Witche, and this word eventually became the Modern English equivalent... witch.

These cultures and languages predate Christianity. There is no reason why they would be using Christian insults when they were not Christians and - as is highly likely - as yet untouched by Christianity.
They are not from Christian peoples - they were tribal pagans that lived magick and practiced magick long before Christianity came around.

[AterCorax]

Quote from the article:

Personally, I don't think it really matters where the word 'witch' came from; after all, there is no finite way to prove or disprove its origins.

That is why this person doesn't try to prove anything, because it can't be proven!

-Ater

[Pol]

And yet, many historians and linguistic professionals disagree with them. How strange.

It's not all that difficult to trace languages.

[AterCorax]

Well, according to your article, those people might have called themselves Weik. Just because 'witch' is derived from words that weren't insults, doesn't mean it wasn't created to be used as such in the English language.

-Ater

[Pol]

No, according to that article, it is a descendant of the Indo-European (which far predates anglo-saxons and such) Weik. There are many words like it, including the word itself, which mean simply to use enchantments, magick, that sort of thing.
What would you believe? A time machine letting you hear them say it themselves? Because unless you want to accept what historians and those who have studied languages as their job for years and years and years, then I'm really not sure what you're asking for.
Sounds like 'wishful thinking' to me.

[AterCorax]

It's not all that difficult to trace languages.

Umm, yes it is. :rolleyes:

As for historians, they themselves know that they don't know anything for sure, like you seem to think so. Do you know why? Because they can only use the stuff written by winners and maybe some other historical stuff that they find. Other than that, their history is flawed, because they haven't lived it. They just researched what little they could find, and them prestented the most logical theories.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

Also, the whole point is that we don't live in a history book, we live in a world where 'warlcok' used to mean 'liar' (according to you and your sources) and now means 'male witch' (according to the dictionary and most people who speak english).

-Ater

[AterCorax]

Because unless you want to accept what historians and those who have studied languages as their job for years and years and years, then I'm really not sure what you're asking for.

Most historians agree with my theory, btw.

-Ater

[Pol]

And the most logical - and most likely, and in some sense pretty much for sure - is that the word witch comes from weik and never had a bad connotation until people started using it for old hag. It wasn't even used in a particularly bad way in the Bible, except that it says not to do witchcraft.

Anyway, I guess I didn't know you wanted hardcore facts that were not disputable by the devil's advocate of 'but what if everyone is wrong about it all.'

They say the word brat comes from braet, or rag, because street urchins wore rags and became known as braet. I don't know about you, but I'm willing to accept that, as it makes sense, and the words match up, and they have a pretty good idea of what they're talking about. So if they say warlock comes from waerlogga, I'm going to believe that too.

[AterCorax]

So, if warlock comes from 'liar,' it'll always mean liar?

So, if brat comes from 'rag,' it'll always mean rag?

That's what you're basically saying. And I disagree with you.

-Ater

[flar7]

Pol, read my quote of you again. You stated, "because, as far as anyone can tell, one word has always had a bad meaning, " and as my post shows, that cant be. Otherwise there would be no alternative possible origin. If there is an alternative, then its likely it has many supporters since it made it into the Oxford. IMO, the norse form of the word sound much closer to the english version.

[Pol]

Warlock has never been used in a good way (in the english language).
That is not at all what I am saying, only that the statement 'witch and warlock both come from bad terms' is false. I feel I have given enough evidence to convince most logical people that witch does not have a particularly insulting origin - to the best of the knowledge we have of the languages spoken at that time(just as we can only assume that the Egyptian empire really existed).

Warlock has been used since its introduction into the english/anglo/whatever language (not withstanding that it may be from the norse word and not waerlogga or whatever) in an insulting way (devil, liar, et cetera). Witch has not been used in an insulting way except in that way that is synonymous with hag - which is a very recent meaning, thanks to the modern idea that witches are green hags with rotten teeth.

That is all based on the knowledge that people have of languages to this day, and the generally accepted roots, origins, and meanings of the word witch, wicce, wicca, et cetera.

So, you have made the statement that both witch and warlock have bad origin. You have yet to prove anything of the sort.

Perhaps there is no definite way to prove for certain where the word witch came from - as such, your statement that they are both from bad/insulting origins are still false.
The languages that used the word wicce/wicca predate Christianity, so any of that "only Christians use it" stuff holds no water. It was used in the bible because it already existed in the language to which the bible was being translated.

[Romani Vixen]

The meaning of words can and do change. If you want it to be a bad word and an insult, then it will be. The mass of individuals make the choice.

I for one, will be doing more research on the topic. If I come to the conclution that it may have, or is, decendended from a more positive meaning, then I will start to share that information.

you may return to your ranting and raving that's getting no where....

[AterCorax]

Pol,

My point is that you can't know for sure that 'witch' comes from a positive intention, or that 'warlock' comes from a negative one.

Now, I'm getting sick of all this ranting, and I am stopping it now. Unless you have anything new to add (something logical would be nice, since I have never heard anyone who thinks that there were actually people who called themselves witches in the good old days), please agree to disagree.

I'm done.

-Ater

[flar7]

Warlock has never been used in a good way (in the english language)....


...Warlock has been used since its introduction into the english/anglo/whatever language (not withstanding that it may be from the norse word and not waerlogga or whatever) in an insulting way (devil, liar, et cetera). Witch has not been used in an insulting way except in that way that is synonymous with hag - which is a very recent meaning, thanks to the modern idea that witches are green hags with rotten teeth....



...So, you have made the statement that both witch and warlock have bad origin. You have yet to prove anything of the sort...

Perhaps there is no definite way to prove for certain where the word witch came from - as such, your statement that they are both from bad/insulting origins are still false...

your own words seem contradictory. How can you state that the begining useage is unsure for one word and not for the other? Face it, no one knows, and there are more theories on those words than even we have covered. But you blanket statements about the origin of warlock's useage is blatantly false. If even one poor pagan in the ancient past, when english was evolving, used the term in a good way and likely all the norse familiar with the term did, then it invalidates your statement.

Its like narrowing the useage for Pagan. Most here believe it means polytheistic to some sort or one who doenst follow the three faiths from Yahweh. But early definitions, and not all, say simple that pagans are "country dwellers."

[mucgwyrt]

That's not true, though. The word 'witch' was not invented by Christians. It appears in the bible only because it is the english word for 'one who uses magic.'
The word Witch comes from Anglo-Saxon wicce/wicca/wiccecraeft - and Anglo-Saxon predates Christianity.


This article (http://www.flindersclubs.asn.au/pagan/paganism/witchorigin.html) states:




So, basically everything I have said.

The Anglo-Saxons do not predate Christianity - they predate it only by a hundred years or so in Britain - they were around 450ad - 1066.

[NivekDrgnMage]

:spinner: Wow I really cann't believe you all have spent this much time on this subject, which seems to me to be the same old debate "What came first the chicken or the egg?"
Get a grip! Unless we all can jump back in time to figure this out, we have to take the Words from the so called experts. And you know what most of them don't agree with each other.

:::this is for PB and his eariler post:::::

"Paging! Dr Bombay! Dr Bombay! Witchs are out of control, come right away!" I still think Uncle Arthur was the best :falloffch

Oppps maybe I shouldn't of used the word Witchs....my Bad ;)

[mucgwyrt]

:lol: :uhhuhuh:

[samiaminsane]

I'll answer your question when you spell my name right.

How hard can it be?

-Ater

Oh, AterCorax, my apologies to the king. Is this some attempt to not answer my questions or are you just being moody to someone you don't even know who accidentally spelled your name wrong? Check back in your posts and see how you spell 'intelligent'.

[samiaminsane]

*edited by Isil* Shouldn't have been said in the first place, didn't need to be translated either though.

[Xentor]

PS: *edited by mol* :)
1. No flaming, trolling, or abuse of other members is allowed in the community. This should be fairly easy to understand. No calling each other names, etc.

4. Language shall be kept at a PG-13 level. Constant use of swear words will result in a moderation and/or editing of the post in question.

5. Obscene, vulgar, or sexually explicit material is not allowed. This includes links to sites containing obscene, vulgar, or sexually explicit material.

AterCorax, PM me and tell me you didn't say what I think you said.

[Pol]

your own words seem contradictory. How can you state that the begining useage is unsure for one word and not for the other? Face it, no one knows, and there are more theories on those words than even we have covered. But you blanket statements about the origin of warlock's useage is blatantly false. If even one poor pagan in the ancient past, when english was evolving, used the term in a good way and likely all the norse familiar with the term did, then it invalidates your statement.

How? Because, as you have pointed out, there are two ways warlock could have come about. Either, from waerlogga, or from the norse vardlok or whatever it was. That makes it unsure.
However, there's no alternate origin for witch. It came from wicca/wicce, plain as day. That word was not an insult, it was just a title or description as we use it today. I've never even seen it used as an insult toward magick users.
People have done a lot of research into the word, and they've never found it to be an insulting one.

The Anglo-Saxons do not predate Christianity - they predate it only by a hundred years or so in Britain - they were around 450ad - 1066.

I know my anglo-saxony :)
They still predate Christianity - they were a pagan culture as well as any. They worshipped pantheons and had their magick. The word wicca/wicce they used predated them and came from the languages before them, as was shown in that article I posted.

I have the strange ability to continue to say the same thing over and over again if I think I can prove a point.
I'm fixing to go burn my dictionary, and every other history book, though. I mean, how do they know what all of our words mean and come from? They can't, if I don't want to believe them.

[mucgwyrt]

How? Because, as you have pointed out, there are two ways warlock could have come about. Either, from waerlogga, or from the norse vardlok or whatever it was. That makes it unsure.
However, there's no alternate origin for witch. It came from wicca/wicce, plain as day. That word was not an insult, it was just a title or description as we use it today. I've never even seen it used as an insult toward magick users.
People have done a lot of research into the word, and they've never found it to be an insulting one.



I know my anglo-saxony :)
They still predate Christianity - they were a pagan culture as well as any. They worshipped pantheons and had their magick. The word wicca/wicce they used predated them and came from the languages before them, as was shown in that article I posted.

I have the strange ability to continue to say the same thing over and over again if I think I can prove a point.
I'm fixing to go burn my dictionary, and every other history book, though. I mean, how do they know what all of our words mean and come from? They can't, if I don't want to believe them.

no - the anglo-saxons predated christianity in britain, but they definately definately did not predate christianity in general. Which is what you implied.

(if you're sick of repeating yourself, then dont bother ;) )

[Pol]

I'm not sick of it. I can just keep going and going and going. (I WILL MAKE YOU BAHLEEVE!)

When I say predate Christianity, I mean they predate Christianity in their part of the world. Of course they do not predate Christianity in all of the world.
What I mean by Christianity is the time when Christianity reached them, and when Christians used the language to translate the bible. They were a pagan race, that's all I mean.

[AterCorax]

Oh, AterCorax, my apologies to the king. Is this some attempt to not answer my questions or are you just being moody to someone you don't even know who accidentally spelled your name wrong? Check back in your posts and see how you spell 'intelligent'.

Your original post callled me a 'queen'. So, when you decide to ask me something without insulting me, I will answer your question.

Have a nice day. :p

-Ater

[samiaminsane]

*sigh, smacks self in forehead*
Yes, and I changed it as soon as I saw that you were male. Why create a thread when you only do so to insult others and treat their opinions as worthless? I will leave you to your own world where you create threads and refuse to answer questions that involve said thread. Or, if you actually feel like responding: What does warlock mean to you and what do you believe it's origins to be? All dictionaries are somewhat different, so there is no real way to know.

[Romani Vixen]

**head moving back and forth as if watching a tennis match**

[Pol]

I'm just curious how many pages I'm going to be involved in before I get tired of this one. I'm looking at 10 or 11. :drool: :drool: :drool:

[Willowjc]

STOP ....please I'm begging you its useless..........this is like the song that never ends......it just goes on and on my friends...somebody started singing it no knowing what it was and they'll continue singing forever JUST because.......come on join in....this is the song that never ends...it just goes on and on my friends...somebody started singing it no knowing what it was and they'll continue singing forever JUST because.......this is the song that never ends...it just goes on and on my friends...somebody started singing it no knowing what it was and they'll continue singing forever JUST because.......LOL

[Pol]

It's not like you HAVE to read it 8O

[Willowjc]

tou·ché

[Willowjc]

and HEY I'm on yourside I believe your correct I believe if you read my posts that Warlock has always had a negative meaning and that Witch at the beginning did not and then was turned negative.....this is getting way too serious....I was just making it alittle laughter....sorry

[flar7]

Pol. My quote of you was taken in context to warlock, not witch. I mostly agree with the origins as guessed at by experts on "witch." But your comment was all inclusive on the subject, and that meant Warlock. Its hard to say, and be credible, "Witch may not have started out negatively, we cant know since it predates..." but that, "Warlock has always meant..." When the alternative definitions show that warlock has no always meant, and that its origins are unsure.

[mucgwyrt]

I dont think witch began as a derogatory word because in the anglo-saxon language there are at least 20 different words meaning "witch" (wicce/wicca is just one of many) and these are more to describe what the "witch" specialises in (e.g. a 'Galdor-Cræftigan' - an enchanter) than to be derogatory. There is no reason to believe that wicce is any different.

[AterCorax]

*sigh, smacks self in forehead*
Yes, and I changed it as soon as I saw that you were male.

Thank you for the explenation. :cutesanta

Now, to your questions....

What does warlock mean to you and what do you believe it's origins to be? All dictionaries are somewhat different, so there is no real way to know.

Warlock, to me personally, means nothing. I wouldn't consider calling myself a 'warlock,' but I have nothing against it either. My point throughout this thread was that if someone decides to call themselves as such, that people like Pol and others shouldn't stay in their way, talking about how they are sure that warlock has always meant 'liar' or whatever. As for my opinions on the actual origins of the word, again, I don't really know. However, I don't accept the 'liar' thing as blindly as some other people, and I realize that there is no way for me to know the true origin for sure. Therefore, I don't really think about it too much. (Although, as seen throughout this thread, I do argue about it!)

But, the modern dictionaries do say that 'warlock' is basically a male witch, because time does change meaning of some words. Those who want to use the word should be able to use it without being b*tched at by other people, especielly in the pagan community. But, that's just my opinion.

Did that answer your questions? I tried my best.

-Ater

[mydemand]

Funny you guys should mention this, because there was something about it in our local newspapers last Sunday.

They have a column talking about words and entymology, written in the form of an advice column. Every week a word would "write in" to the column, with whatever problem they're facing, and the resident advisor would tell them the history of the word and how it came to mean what it means now.

Last Sunday the word featured was Warlock...

Liar, liar, pants on fire!

Dear Dr Lexis,

I SWEAR that I seem to have everyone under my spell. I guess it's my innate charm that holds everyone spellbound. People like me; I'm naturally likeable - honest to goodness, I am.

Nevertheless, I amgetting rather tired of having folks hang on to my every witty word. Then again, the second I turn off the charm, they spit at me and call me a "scoundrel", "monster" and "traitor".

Okay, I'll be straight with you. A very long time ago - as a matter of survival - I was a little less than 100 per cent truthful 100 per cent of the time. Although I tried very hard not to lie, I um, you could ay "economised on the truth" a lot, especially when I needed to get my way. You do understand, don't you, that a word has to do what a word has to do to establish itself?

Very soon, everyone was calling me names and such - that's when it occured to me to turn to the occult. By and large, over the centuries, it has worked. All I've had to do is utter a special chant below my breath and Lo! in a drop of a hat, I have the person whom I've directed the spellon eating out of my hand.

Now that I'm so well-entrenched in English - what with the immense popularity of such movie and TV series as The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel - I'm wondering if I should go easy on magic.

Spell my name,
Warlock

Dear Warlock,

YOU'RE lying to yourself if you think that folks are just going to start liking you for who you are just at the drop of a hat, or should I say "at the wave of a wand".

Although many have ong forgotten that you were a pathological liar, especially when you're under oath, they still can't trust you 100 per cent 100 per cent of the time for all your dabbling in "magic".

Many still see you for what you originally start out as: a traitor (because you use your spells to manipulate them). That's right, a "warlock" originally meant a "traitor" or "deceiver", but soon broadened into a general term of abuse and became an epithet for the Devil.

You took the form of waerlog, a compound noun for waer, meaning "covenant, faith or pledge", and loga or "liar" (a derivative of leogan, the ancestor of the Modern English "lie"). You got your current form "warlock" in 1685.

I suggest you stop your pretense about wanting to be liked for who you really are. Magic and wizardry are in these days, so why spit in the face of a good thing?

The article is from Sunday Mail (Malaysia), 11 July 2004, in the "Words 'R' Us" column written by Merina Hew. Her email address is mhedits-drlex@yahoo.com

Thoughts?

B*B, Tiara

[mucgwyrt]

Interesting. So liars were equated with the devil which were equated with magic, so by extension it always meant both :D

[Pol]

I'm not against people giving new meaning to words. I'm a Christo-Pagan, two words that negate one another (considering the dictionary says pagan means non-christian).

flar7 - I am speaking of warlock also. I have not ignored your posts, and have stated that you could be correct. I'm not sure what you're getting on about now - we're in agreement here.

My main beef in this thread has - and always has - been that warlock and witch do not both share a 'bad' background, as Ater has said repeatedly.
Warlock's background is split - it could be either, it is accepted to have two possible origins. I believe that both origins are correct - the word warlock means traitor, and most likely when the nords invaded the UK they probably got the words mixed up and as such witches became known as traitors - for still, that is how the word is defined and used, in a bad way, even if the meaning was harmless at first.

Witch, however, has never had a bad meaning - except for a very slight meaning of an old hag, which came along much later than the original wicce/wicca.

Willowjc: I know :) I was just joking around, I didn't mean any offense.

[AterCorax]

Witch, however, has never had a bad meaning - except for a very slight meaning of an old hag, which came along much later than the original wicce/wicca.

Never say never, because as has been said before, you do not know for sure how the word was used when you weren't around.

My point has not been that 'witch' originally had a bad meaning, but that it is a valid posibility. Because, no one knows for sure.

-Ater

[Pol]

Actually, you said multiple times that witch was bad in origin.

[AterCorax]

I said probably was bad in origin, but I didn't say that I was 100% sure.

-Ater

[Pol]

No, the conflict here is that BOTH 'witch' and 'warlock' don't have a "...good origin" and have "...always had the same meaning."

There you said it did not have good origin, and said it was an insult many more times throughout the thread.. It is not an insult, and is very rarely used as such.

[flar7]

Pol. I am glad you have accepted my divine "rightness" or at least my divine non-"wrongness" :bigredgri

as pronunciation goes and how words come about, I kinda feel that vardlokk is a much closer match to warlock. In the norse "v" is w.


now here is a strange point. before I met and hung with pagans, I had almost never heard witch used in a good way. It was always a slur or slander meant as a barb or attack at someone. Now, I hear it sometimes used positvely or at least non hurtful by pagans or other's who call themselves witch.

[AterCorax]

There you said it did not have good origin, and said it was an insult many more times throughout the thread.. It is not an insult, and is very rarely used as such.

My bad. ::looks down:: :)

I meant to say that most things in my research point to that view, and that they are more logical than the ones you presented. I myself don't really care if the word had bad or good origins, because I would never be able to prove (and neither can you) either way.

...And, as flar7 just said and from my own experience, 'witch' is almost always used as an insult by non-pagans.

-Ater

[Pol]

Yes, by the ignorant, it is used as an insult. That has nothing to do with origin.
I think most people who have any knowledge of language and paganism will agree that it was not used first by the Christians and not as an insult (the etymology of the word has been researched by many, pagans and non-pagans I am sure, and there is a general agreement of where the word comes from).

Modern meaning has nothing to do with the word itself. The reason it is used as an insult, I should imagine, is because of the resemblence to the word bitch, and the connotation of an old hag (a recent idea, at best).

Hence witches 'reclaiming' the word in the public's eye, because it has recently been disrupted.

It is true that vardlokk and warlock seem to have a lot in common. Though, in Japan, the owner of a brothel was called mama-san. Not a lot unlike our madam, the name for our brothel owners - especially given that mama is a name for a mother or older woman, usually the role taken by a madam to her prostitutes.
My point is only that the meaning of warlock is split, some say it comes from vardlokk, some say waerlogga/waerlog. Either way, the use of it has been an insult and even a name for the devil.

[mucgwyrt]

Witch, however, has never had a bad meaning - except for a very slight meaning of an old hag, which came along much later than the original wicce/wicca.


No, it didn't. "Old Hag" comes from the anglo-saxon hæg/hægtesse.

[samiaminsane]

This opinion is completely based on all the definitions and theories I have read so far on this thread. I will do no quotes because I have to be at work soon and am not going to waste my time.... Thank you, Ater, for responding. Warlock.... the best theory I can come up with is that Warlocks were hiding their practices due to the heavy Christian influences of the time. They were found out, branded as outcasts and so forth were called 'liars' or 'oath-breakers', perhaps because they 'broke' their 'oaths' to the Christian God?? I refuse to believe that anyone who calls themself a Warlock nowadays does so because they are an oath-breaker. It's a silly and ridiculous idea. For those of you who state that Witch has always had a good meaning, think again. Just because some of the definitions you find in newer edition dictioniaries are right and correspond means nothing. Besides, it's not just the definition that counts, it's people's personal opinions that matter. If I tell someone I'm Wiccan, they think I'm some hippie tree-hugger out to save the world. If I tell them I'm a Witch, they are slightly afraid of me or think I belong in a straightjacket. Either way, they are wrong. All the Pagan religions have come a long way and are much more accepted than, say, 50 years ago. But there are still so many misconceptions out there, and still so far to go. Everyone I have ever met who called themselves a Warlock did so because they were a)male and b) a Witch. This is the end of my rant, excuse all my typos (because I'm sure there are some!).

[Pol]

Macha: eh? Witch is now synonymous with hag.