Does staying in the closet help or hinder acceptance of Paganism?

[docdoo]

Ok, so here's something I've wondered about for a long while. I've never really understood it but it's apparantly quite prevalant.

In the Pagan community in general I hear alot of outrage about how we're not being treated equally etc. This has led me to wonder if we're a part of the problem? Meaning, with so many of us hiding in the closet, fearful of telling anyone that we're *gasp* 'Pagan' aren't we kind of sabotaging equal rights/acceptance for ourselves?

There seems to be alot of fear and silence coming from the Pagan community as a whole. It seems that many of us are unwilling to tell people what we are, that we lie or dodge the question entirely. Do you think that this leads to a mindset within ourselves AND within the community at large that we are hiding because we are doing something 'shameful' or 'wrong'? (as in..."So and so wouldn't be lying about their religion unless they were ashamed of it, so there must be something wrong with Pagans!")

I'm just curious as to how others view this strange paradox, this idea that we can scream and yell about inequality and how unfair things are and then be too terrified to even tell the people with whom we associate what we are?

Any thoughts or ideas on this?

[Aine of the Fae]

I do think that has a lot to do with it. If there is nothing wrong with it why hide it? True other people might not understand, but they'll NEVER understand if you don't give them the chance to.

[Phi]

I think it partly comes from our

adversion to conversion (I'm weird, like that rhyme:muwaha: )

We are both adverse to someone trying to convert us, and to someone thinking we are trying to convert them, thus we tend not to bring it up...

[Nighthawk]

Docdoo, I belive it DOES hamper acceptance, of whatever it is any of us are.. If you are not of the norm, yet hide what you are...people just think you are strange, and when or if they really DO learn about you , THEN they blame the strangeness on YOUR ODD PATH.. yes.. I do think so. My question is.. they have gay pride, black pride, and all sorts of marches..oh wait, there is a pagan pride march, right?? Anyway, it would be nice to see more of that.

[Pesha]

What is needed is education to the folks who fear us becasue they do not know any better. TYhen the broom closet will become a thing of the past. And no one will have to be afraid of anyone else.

BB
DS.

[Shanti]

I think it depends on your location. When I lived in the big city, diversity was the norm and so it didnt matter much, but now I am in a white christian area and these people are pretty much stuck in the 50's. The town had an uproar 4 yrs ago when the first black family moved in, they also moved back out thanks to the awful treatment they received. A town where they cant even cope with the diveristy of race sure cant handle religous diversity!!!! I should know. This town knows I am pagan because I have been here long enough and I am treated like dirt. My yard has been vandalised and the cops here wont even take a report. I hate when I have to go to town for something like a gallon of milk because people make it obvious that they think I am evil.

So there is a reason for fear and being quiet.

Gays went through the same thing and its a long hard road. And its not over for any of us that dont fit the norm.

[MerrisHawk]

Now I really appreciate where I live.

Staying in the broom closet does not help as a whole but it is necessary for the few. Very rarely have I come across anyone who thinks I'm a evil or nuts. The few who call names and try to "help" are usually the same ones who can't accept D&D, gay marriage and iced coffee.
Lasting change is slow to happen. Coming out of the closet as a whole will take years and there will always be those who can't deal with it.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well, there are two negatives to staying in the broom closet.

One, it causes the general public to underestimate our numbers. If there are (say) 150,000 out Pagans in the US, and (say) 500,000 closeted Pagans in the US, that's a big difference. If all those people were out of the closet, the public acknowledgement of the size of our community would increase more than three-fold.

Two, generally speaking (disclaimer), a lot of the Pagans who are out are those who do not present Paganism in a good light. Those who practice Pagan religions for the attention, or to get back at their parents, or because they think it's "cool", or whatever. Many (certainly not all) out Pagans are those who are already leading what might be called "alternative lifestyles". It is those of us who are more "normal" who have more to fear from prejudice or discrimination if we were to be outed to the non-Pagan community. But ironically, it is exactly those sorts of people who would add the veneer of "normalcy" to the Pagan community.

It's like the gay community. Most gay people I know lead really boring lives. They go to work, they pay their bills, they watch TV, etc. And yet, the gay people who (generally) get the most attention are those living wildly alternative lifestyles -- leather queens, bull dykes, etc. It is that sort of media attention that causes middle America to view most gays as "freaks", when in reality, most are as normal as they are. The same is true for the Pagan community.

That said, being in or out is absolutely a personal choice. I would never pressure a Pagan to come out of the closet if they were not comfortable doing so. We are living in a society where alternative religions are becoming increasingly marginalized by the mainstream, and we do have something to fear in the way of prejudice and discrimination.

[Kaija]

Pretty much I agree with everyone else on this one.. I actually never allowed myself into the broom closet.. I forced my mother to let me skip church, (when she dragged me I screamed until they let me walk home), then refused confirmation.. When I started this path a couple of years later, I never hid it from anyone.. My other closet.. I did. For a few years, until I was going nuts.. then,.. just kind of jumped out and haven't looked back. I'm fairly normal in appearance, but, as recent events have shown me, it can be dangerous sometimes. Even in a town where it seemed less likely. I feel that the only way people in general will learn is through confrontation. If they don't see it as affecting them or their lives in any way, why bother even thinking about it? I do understand why people feel the need to hide it.. (with all the younguns too!) I've heard many things, but, I've also attended both pagan and gay pride events, and the truth is.. the pagan pride actually gets quite a bit of good press. That's a good sign. So we are going in the right direction there's just some obstacles in the way right now. (Gay pride in GR,.. well, it sucks in general.. so press don't bother with it anymore)

[zakzekezedd]

Hmmm..I don't particularly "hide" the fact that I am "pagan" but I don't go around announcing it either. I think that how open or "out" you are about your religious path has to be up to you. Regrettably, there are many people who would not hesitate to use a person's choice of religion as an excuse to harass and discriminate against them. Does staying in the broom closet ultimately undermine the image or position of the Pagan "community"? Yes, probably....but life is full enough of hassles and people giving you grief for one reason or another, and I can't fault anyone for wanting to avoid adding to the "load" by announcing they are a witch, or a Wiccan, or a Pagan.

[Imbrium]

Well, there are two negatives to staying in the broom closet.

One, it causes the general public to underestimate our numbers. If there are (say) 150,000 out Pagans in the US, and (say) 500,000 closeted Pagans in the US, that's a big difference. If all those people were out of the closet, the public acknowledgement of the size of our community would increase more than three-fold.

Two, generally speaking (disclaimer), a lot of the Pagans who are out are those who do not present Paganism in a good light. Those who practice Pagan religions for the attention, or to get back at their parents, or because they think it's "cool", or whatever. Many (certainly not all) out Pagans are those who are already leading what might be called "alternative lifestyles".
It's like the gay community. Most gay people I know lead really boring lives. They go to work, they pay their bills, they watch TV, etc. And yet, the gay people who (generally) get the most attention are those living wildly alternative lifestyles -- leather queens, bull dykes, etc. It is that sort of media attention that causes middle America to view most gays as "freaks", when in reality, most are as normal as they are. The same is true for the Pagan communityIt is those of us who are more "normal" who have more to fear from prejudice or discrimination if we were to be outed to the non-Pagan community. But ironically, it is exactly those sorts of people who would add the veneer of "normalcy" to the Pagan community..

That said, being in or out is absolutely a personal choice. I would never pressure a Pagan to come out of the closet if they were not comfortable doing so. We are living in a society where alternative religions are becoming increasingly marginalized by the mainstream, and we do have something to fear in the way of prejudice and discrimination.I read this quote earlier, and so it was bobbing around my mind while I was waiting in line to get some books for school today. Then a girl walked in the bookstore with the biggest "MERRY MEET!" I think that I've ever come across. She was wearing violet and black, a full torso pentagram T-shirt, and a baphomet symbol that was at least 5 inches across hanging from a chain around her neck. The girl couldn't have been more obvious without sporting a banner and a spotlight. Now, no offense, but I find that the whole...in-your-face kind of religion irritating, all individuality aside. I tried to be positive and think that perhaps she was just one of those terribly upbeat and friendly types that are just too happy for my comfort, but no.......she was quite rude to the bookstore cashier, and to everyone else in the room aside from her friends. (those that she walked in with thought she was really funny...*giggle, giggle, tee-hee*.............

so....
It is those of us who are more "normal" who have more to fear from prejudice or discrimination if we were to be outed to the non-Pagan community. But ironically, it is exactly those sorts of people who would add the veneer of "normalcy" to the Pagan community.

Now that I think about it, Pagans could use a little normalcy here and there.

[wounded_crow]

i just don't like confortations. So I keep quiet about my personal life to the public. I know if I let people know i'm not going to really eat their babies, it would probably be ok with many people. But, I live in a small town where it has been told to me (by a fellow pagan) to keep my mouth shut, they have run a pagan family out and wll do it again. (I'm serious about this part) They stood on the lawn with crosses and burning torches and told them to leave. That's why I am here on this board, to be with people more like myself.

[calria]

At home, I am the most closeted witch you've ever seen (well, one of them, anyway.) My parents, both ultra-conservative Lutherans, still make me go to church with them and wouldn't even accept me telling them that I wanted to wear pants to church, let alone that I wasn't a Christian at all. Also, it would hurt them too much, and, well, "an it hurt none," you know? So I keep them in the dark.

At the same time, though, I'm lucky enough to go to, of all places, a fairly liberal community college in the middle of conservative southeast Texas. So, I feel perfectly fine about being out to the people in my classes/at work (student assistant in the counselling center)/in the drama department/etc, as well as to my best friends, who still live in the small NE Texas town where I went to high school, but are on the whole a very liberal group (hence the fact that we were/are friends.) I'm not only uncloseted about my paganism, but about the fact that yes, though I have a boyfriend/fiance, I am bisexual. That doesn't mean, however, that I'm in any way flashy about it. I don't wear a pentagram, or indeed any pagan-influenced jewelry (unless you count two celtic knot rings that I wear!) And I don't run around telling everyone my views when they talk about their religion, or picking fights with those who think I'm wrong (as I've seen some people do.) I just... am. Just like I openly have brown hair and blue eyes, I'm openly pagan when I'm not at home, and so it's not so big of a deal.
I just wish that more would act the same... if I see one more preppy girl walk out of Hastings or Barnes and Noble or Hot Topic with a Silver Ravenwolf book, or a pentogram necklace, or spelling magic with a "k", I may be forced to forget the three fold rule and go for broke.

[morrigen]

I'm not one to go about telling people...but if I'm asked, or it comes up in conversation, I will not hesitate to at least briefly, explain my belief system.

I do believe that staying in the broomcloset is a far from ideal situation, and one that I, personally could not tolerate...yet I fully understand that sometimes a person may view it as a valid and/or safe choice.

I think as a whole, the pagan community is a very supportive and warm one, but because we're all so separated and reluctant to disclose...we're not often "on hand" enough (say. like a structured church community) to offer the constant support that lends itself to individual courage...it's a vicious circle.

[Wascally Wabbit]

It's kind of similar to gays. I believe that societal acceptance will not come before self-acceptance.

I'm not practicing much now and I wasn't much into group worship or following proscribed paths, so why should I volunteer for the stuff that might come from being out there? I disclose selectively. I don't like to disclose to be misunderstood or worse. I would be unlikely for instance, to list "Pagan" as my religion on a hospital form as I don't see how it could help me, but I do see how it could not.

I don't feel "closeted" because I don't generally feel called to put vulnerable aspects of my persona into the public sphere. I dislike being misunderstood, or reduced to a "type" as I am so unique, even among those who believe in the G-dd-ss. My faith, or lack of it, and my experience of the Divine, is constantly evolving; resistent to understanding by all but a tiny minority of the population.

I have taken issue with negative comments about Wiccans without necessarily disclosing my activities.

Some people are really out there and I think that's fine if they are comfortable. Some of them have done tremendous good and I am grateful to them.

[ravynbynorthwynd]

because so many people still think that anything except christianity is "devil-worship", thats why we remain closeted. it took a long time for homosexuals to feel comfortable coming out, and yes it did involve a lot of them taking the first step, but then again, there were those who were scared, and there still are.

[Antoninus]

I think our problem is that people have a harder time accepting us because we CHOSE to be different. If your bisexual or gay/lesbian, you didnt have a choice, you were born that way. If your black, white, hispanic, asian, green, purple, or orange, you didnt have a choice, you were born that way. But we all CHOSE this path, we got on this particular bus of our own free will. So I think people have a harder time accepting us because of that.

Plus we dont have a very strong political base to back us like the gay community does. Yeah we have organizations that promote religious tolerance and defend religiously motivated wrongs, but we dont have a real organization that defends us and only us. We dont have a group that fights for Pagan/Wiccan rights. We have some VERY motivated PEOPLE who do, but very motivated people can be ignored, or worse, shot. Im sure Martin Luther King would agree with me.

We arent an organized religion. Someone, when I first came here, said that "trying to organize Pagans is like trying to herd cats". And they were right, we arent organized. We cant really BE organized. Organized religions can get together groups to defend them. And like I said, yes I know we have groups like PEN but PEN (Pagan Education Network) will not get us acceptance.

We are a "fringe" people and we will ALWAYS be that way. We will NEVER be totally accepted by the world.

But why is that such a bad thing? Hmm? If someone starts calling me a devil worshiper and screaming at me that they dont want to be seen with me, GOOD! Hell Ill drive that person HOME. If a person cant be tolerant an open, then I dont want 'em near me. So our differences can actually be a very effective failsafe to keep intolerant people away. Atleast thats the way I look at it.

[Kaija]

"I think our problem is that people have a harder time accepting us because we CHOSE to be different. If your bisexual or gay/lesbian, you didnt have a choice, you were born that way. If your black, white, hispanic, asian, green, purple, or orange, you didnt have a choice, you were born that way. But we all CHOSE this path, we got on this particular bus of our own free will. So I think people have a harder time accepting us because of that. "



Actually, most people who are fighting the idea that gay people have rights (I'm sorry, but that's what it is.. in some states you can still be arrested for what you do in your bedroom... ) believe that it IS a choice. That it is just something you decide to do .. to rebel, just because you are crazy... whatever. *shrug* Neither paganism nor homosexuality has a harder time.. BOTH can still legally be used against a person.. (Although, as Paganism is classified as a religion it is still somewhat safe... They can take your kids away, but after a court case you'll almost always get them back) I also know that I didn't have a choice about being Pagan.. I've always "practiced" it.. just didn't know what it was.. sort of an ingrained thing. My choices were always more along the lines of.. either be honest, or be miserable.. so.. *shrug*

[Tullip Troll]

I don't think were all that different anymore.

I think the only thing you should put in the broom closet is a broom. Unless you really have something to fear (like parents) get out.

Being out doesn't mean you go around saying" Hi Im Sue and I worship Freya."

Get out already ! Stop acting likes it's wrong...be right !

MheraPai

[Antoninus]

Actually, most people who are fighting the idea that gay people have rights (I'm sorry, but that's what it is.. in some states you can still be arrested for what you do in your bedroom... ) believe that it IS a choice. That it is just something you decide to do .. to rebel, just because you are crazy... whatever. *shrug* Neither paganism nor homosexuality has a harder time.. BOTH can still legally be used against a person.. (Although, as Paganism is classified as a religion it is still somewhat safe... They can take your kids away, but after a court case you'll almost always get them back) I also know that I didn't have a choice about being Pagan.. I've always "practiced" it.. just didn't know what it was.. sort of an ingrained thing. My choices were always more along the lines of.. either be honest, or be miserable.. so.. *shrug*
Im talking about socially. Legally, we probably have a slightly lower foothold than gays. Socially speaking, its a little more acceptable to be gay or bi because people know you had no choice in the matter. Yeah there are some that will just arbitrarily hate you no matter WHAT you are.

[Dave the Druid]

Acceptance, as long as we are 'the others' we will be seen differently. There is a slight difference between us and the Gay community; holidays. Any one tried getting Samhain off lately? Orthodox jewish holidays aren't really accepted nor are muslim holidays.
I like letting people know if they are interested but I don't advertise, yet!

[FlyingBear]

I'm out to everyone I know and while I don't go chasing random strangers down the street, " Hullo! Have you heard the word of the Goddess?" I don't hide when the topic comes up.

I've taken my born again mother to several rituals, much to the horror of both her friends *and* mine. My feeling about it is so long as we remain hidden, the stories and the fear will keep itself going. I'm not ashamed of what I do, what I believe, why should I pretend otherwise? I know there are people who have good reasons to protect themselves and their loved ones and that's fine, just if you don't have to why do it?

And if you're more of a 'normal' pagan type, like Ben mentioned above, with your polo shirts and day to day living that's even more of a reason to come out. Let people know that we are everywhere and we can be anyone, not just the freaks.

IMHonestO

~FB

[Dave the Druid]

I resemble that remark!

[Antoninus]

I resemble that remark!
You and me both :D

Im one of the "normal" pagans. The only indication on me that Im a different religion is the pentacle around my neck, which, half the time, people think is the Star of David

[Dave the Druid]

You and me both :D

Im one of the "normal" pagans. The only indication on me that Im a different religion is the pentacle around my neck, which, half the time, people think is the Star of David

You and me both brother! :uhhuhuh:
I wear the serpent torque and mostly get oh's and ah's

[Llewyth]

You and me both brother! :uhhuhuh:
I wear the serpent torque and mostly get oh's and ah's
Oooooh! Aaaaaah! ;) :bouncysmi

I go by a "don't ask don't tell" attitude. I wear a pentacle around my neck, given to me by a non-pagan friend but that's about it. If asked, I just say: "google it or read this and that book, we're a nature based religion". I don't like to preach or try to explain things in detail. It's not like I'm about to get a toaster-oven if I convert anyone anyway... so why bother?

[Kadynas]

You and me both :D

Im one of the "normal" pagans. The only indication on me that Im a different religion is the pentacle around my neck, which, half the time, people think is the Star of David
I get that too, because I wear a double pentagram and from a distance it looks like a Star of David. :)

[charmedkisses1]

I do think that has a lot to do with it. If there is nothing wrong with it why hide it? True other people might not understand, but they'll NEVER understand if you don't give them the chance to.
Yeah.

[Antoninus]

I get that too, because I wear a double pentagram and from a distance it looks like a Star of David. :)
I actually get asked if Im Jewish more than I get asked if im Pagan/Wiccan

[DixieWitch]

Hmmm..I don't particularly "hide" the fact that I am "pagan" but I don't go around announcing it either I am the same. But I also am part of a family that would more than likely disown me if I were to come out of the broom closet. I go by the ol' "don't ask, don't tell" They don't ask, I don't tell. It's my personal life and choice.

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

Grrr. "Out of the closet pagan" usually refers to "Person who can't shut up about their newly discovered religion". At least in my circles. Anyway, I try to adhere to knowing, daring, willing, and keeping silent!

[Antoninus]

Im in the same boat as a few others who have said "I dont advertise, but I dont hide it". If I have a witchcraft book on my desk at school, I turn it over so people dont get overly curious. I have a SMALL pentacle around my neck. But if someone asks what my religion is, Ill tell them straight

But I do understand why people break the door of the broom closet to get out of it though. Its a very good feeling to have something to believe in. Before I could never understand why people were so eager to share thier religions. After a little while of becomming Pagan, I understood, I had the urge to shout it from the rooftops. But it does get irritating to most people so I coped.

[OceanMyst]

I've found myself wondering about this as well. Its sort of both things as the cause and effect... Because Paganism is so misunderstood people stay in the closet with their beliefs, but because people stay in the closet paganism is misunderstood because their no way people of other religions can understand it if noone teaches them otherwise.

[Antoninus]

Plus the fact that some of the people that represent us (or atleast try to) have NO idea what theyre talking about probably doesnt help

[RubyRose]

Well I'd say that by staying in the closet we are hindering the acceptance of Paganism, but that being said, I'm only semi out of the closet myself. Both my parents know, as does my sister, but appart from the 'witchyness' of it all, or so says my mother, and the one conversation, sparked by my sudden interest in wearing a pentacle necklace, nothing on my being Wiccan, has arisen since.
I still do all my rituals at night (I feel more comfortable) but I have an altar, and have been known to leave my books around everywhere. It's about as 'out' as it ever will be in this household.
RubyRose

[RubyRose]

Grrr. "Out of the closet pagan" usually refers to "Person who can't shut up about their newly discovered religion". At least in my circles. Anyway, I try to adhere to knowing, daring, willing, and keeping silent!

I agree, while it took me a little while to understand that not everybody wants to know about Pagan history, once I understood, I sorta kept to keeping silent unless asked a question on Paganism.

[Tullip Troll]

I don't wear a pentacle, due to all the negativity that surrounds it. I do where goddess pieces and stones and other earthy items. I get loads of questions about them.
When I wore a pentacle people avoided, rolled eyes, ar assumed. Sometimes first impressions are the only ones you get so I stopped wearing it.

MheraPai

[SilentDreams]

Now I really appreciate where I live.

Staying in the broom closet does not help as a whole but it is necessary for the few. Very rarely have I come across anyone who thinks I'm a evil or nuts. The few who call names and try to "help" are usually the same ones who can't accept D&D, gay marriage and iced coffee.
Lasting change is slow to happen. Coming out of the closet as a whole will take years and there will always be those who can't deal with it.

Yeah I must agree with merrishawk on this one

[Antoninus]

Does anyone here use Pagan/Wiccan LANGUAGE in daily life? like "Oh my gods/goddess" things like that?

[OceanMyst]

I do all the time... But not outside of my head. ;)

[Kadynas]

'Oh my gods' is one of my common expressions... but something really out of the usual has to happen before you'll hear me utter a "Blessed Be!" among non-pagan company. :lol: Though I do mutter it under my breath quite often!

I have /never/ used the words "Merry Meet"... even if I see someone with a pentacle... I'd just feel too silly! :lol: Like the new kid who doesn't know anybody trying to talk like them so they'll think you're "cool"...

[DarkDancer]

Yes, I would have to say that beiung in the broomcloset is a hinderance, I also understand that not everyone has the intestinal fortitude to stand up. Also in some areas it can be dangerous to ones family.

[Antoninus]

I have /never/ used the words "Merry Meet"... even if I see someone with a pentacle... I'd just feel too silly! :lol: Like the new kid who doesn't know anybody trying to talk like them so they'll think you're "cool"...
You and me both :) Unless someone says "Merry Meet" first, I dont say it.

[Dave the Druid]

To a point, but typcally blessing people on a trip of some kind. I am accepted as a priest of sorts but I don't drown others with it, like some xians who god's will and god bless this and that.