origin of satan?

[Merlinawakend777]

so a yer or so back someone told me that in the hebrew bible there is only one mention of satan, and "forgive my misspelling< but i believe she said the word was shata which means to be held back...

does anyone know if this is true?

if so, where can i find some references on this?

if not can someone point me into the reference of satan in the hebrew text? or something i can use to learn more about this subject.

this is basicaly for an on going bet!

[Morr]

If im not mistaken - Satan is mentioned first in the book of Job.
He is not evil in any way at all, but a servant angel of God who's job it is to tempt humans and expose those who are unfaithful to God (Y-H-V-H).


The whole big war in heaven, fallen angels and evil Satan was something Christianity TOTALLY made up.
His origins werent evil, but as an angel of God who just did the dirty job (at God's command).

[Merlinawakend777]

If im not mistaken - Satan is mentioned first in the book of Job.
He is not evil in any way at all, but a servant angel of God who's job it is to tempt humans and expose those who are unfaithful to God (Y-H-V-H).


The whole big war in heaven, fallen angels and evil Satan was something Christianity TOTALLY made up.
His origins werent evil, but as an angel of God who just did the dirty job (at God's command).

so by being satans little helper, you are gods little helper's helper? lol

[Morr]

so by being satans little helper, you are gods little helper's helper? lol


its a cover up.
in reality I AM God.
But shhhhhh....

:shhhh:

[Garden of Eden]

I don't think Satan emerged in his modern-day form for quite some time after the 'birth of jesus'... The christians created an omnipotent, eternally pure, good and loving God to worship. But what God would allow such tradgedies to take place in his world? They created a polarity, using the fallen angel of the bible, and based his looks upon the pagan horned God (who they were trying to eliminate as christianity was spread throughout Europe).

Disclaimer: I am not christian bashing. I have a lot of books on the devolpment of various religons and this is how I interpreted the information from them.

[Merlinawakend777]

its a cover up.
in reality I AM God.
But shhhhhh....

:shhhh:
but god, who would believe me??/


but since you admited it, all i want from you is your secret name,

just let me know it once please
i wont dop anything bad with it.

I just want to help people!!!! :boquet:

[Merlinawakend777]

I don't think Satan emerged in his modern-day form for quite some time after the 'birth of jesus'... The christians created an omnipotent, eternally pure, good and loving God to worship. But what God would allow such tradgedies to take place in his world? They created a polarity, using the fallen angel of the bible, and based his looks upon the pagan horned God (who they were trying to eliminate as christianity was spread throughout Europe).

Disclaimer: I am not christian bashing. I have a lot of books on the devolpment of various religons and this is how I interpreted the information from them.
see i have read alot about that in many differen books, but i cannot confirm it as it seams to generaly based on opinion and no hard facts to proove it, but blme the cruisades for a lack of facts considering many invaluable writtings have been burned since thse times

[Morr]

but god, who would believe me??/


but since you admited it, all i want from you is your secret name,

just let me know it once please
i wont dop anything bad with it.

I just want to help people!!!! :boquet:


:yayah:

[mcc]

The jews I've known (all reform, no orthodox) have all upon being asked claimed that modern judaism lacks the idea of a satan. I'm not sure if I can say I've ever gotten a really authoritative answer on that. The whole thing's always confused me.

I'm also a bit perplexed as to exactly when the hell concept came in-- was this concept of there being an unending paradise / unending torture dichonomy to the afterlife in judaism already when jesus come along, and was it pervasive? Does modern judaism have a hell? The jewish scriptures / old testament really seem very quiet on what happens in the afterlife from what I remember.

Honestly I even kind of question how necessary satan is even in a christian context. Jesus talks a lot about heaven but satan and hell barely show up in the gospels...

[aluokaloo]

I seriously wonder if the real satan is having a good hard laugh right along with God at all the people who think he is some evil deity? And so wouldn't that make the real Satan that some Satanists worhip Lucifer?

[aluokaloo]

pictures a scenario where christians are shocked to find that satan is sort of like God's own personal detective or private eye when they get up to heaven. For the record I'm not bashing, I'm just indulging in one of my many bizarre off the hook images.

[PAGANFILES]

Shaitan is the ancient word for the *concept* of evil. That human beings needed to personalize it for propaganda uses, and dropped a couple letters over the years, does not make the word a proper noun or a deity except to those who want such a deity.

Terry

[Morr]

The jews I've known (all reform, no orthodox) have all upon being asked claimed that modern judaism lacks the idea of a satan. I'm not sure if I can say I've ever gotten a really authoritative answer on that. The whole thing's always confused me.

I'm also a bit perplexed as to exactly when the hell concept came in-- was this concept of there being an unending paradise / unending torture dichonomy to the afterlife in judaism already when jesus come along, and was it pervasive? Does modern judaism have a hell? The jewish scriptures / old testament really seem very quiet on what happens in the afterlife from what I remember.

Honestly I even kind of question how necessary satan is even in a christian context. Jesus talks a lot about heaven but satan and hell barely show up in the gospels...


According to Judaism - there is reincarnation.
No heaven or hell or judgement untill the Kingdom of God comes (with the coming of the Messiah), and then there is a ressurection of the dead.

[mcc]

Shaitan is the ancient word for the *concept* of evil. That human beings needed to personalize it for propaganda uses, and dropped a couple letters over the years, does not make the word a proper noun or a deity except to those who want such a deity.

Terry
See, this is what I keep wondering. It seems like in in the old testament (though maybe not so much the book of job) and even in the gospels, when "the devil" is mentioned, it would make perfect sense if in that place they were discussing not an independent entity, but just briefly personifying the concept of "evil", like saying "evil tempted Jesus" but referring to Jesus' own heart or something. It seems possible to me that the more clear indications this is some sort of sentient entity (and not just an artifact of the writing style) were to some degree added in translation.

But since I don't know hebrew or aramaic I can't exactly go and check for myself :P

[Sephiroth]

i personally have nothing against satanist except that they took our star and inverted it and now the christians now adays think we're evil too. but wat lots of christians dont know is that they adopted our star way back to symblize the 5 wounds of christ.

[MsFireHaven]

i personally have nothing against satanist except that they took our star and inverted it and now the christians now adays think we're evil too. but wat lots of christians dont know is that they adopted our star way back to symblize the 5 wounds of christ.


As someone who loves a satanist, I have to interject....If Im not mistaken, we took their star.
A true satanist isnt about worshipping satan, its a religion of "self indulgence". You are your own god and answer to noone.
Just my 2 cents.
Kimmie

[valis]

in the old testament concept for satan is not singular but plural (i can't remember the semeitic name right now). they were not evil; they would have been the crown prosecuters or advocates for the eholim. however, their are hottly debated alternatives. some contest that satan is the sumerian god enki of eridu. others believe the satans were under the command of god, not rouge, and their purpose was to tempt us to sin, but strictly by god's will.

of course the semetic god, yhwh, may have been only one within a pantheon of other.

judaism heavly borrows from other older myths and religion from mesopotamia and all city states within, eygpt, and zoroastrian. the concept of satan can be traced back to those earlier prototypes.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

If I remember correctly the idea of some all evil entity (Ahura Mainyu) oppossing some all good entity (Ahura Mazda), as well as the concept of Hell, came from Zoroastrianism. Though Hell was/is believed to be a temporary resting place until the final end time or last judgement.

[Gede]

MM~
I knew studying Zoroastrianism for a term in Ancient History would pay off! :D

Before I go off on a tangent I'll give you a little background to the faith:

Zoroastrianism was founded in approx. 600 BC by Zoroaster (as he was known by the Greeks), however recent studies have suggested that perhaps the teachings of Zoroaster may stretch back to 1200 BC. This all happened in what was then the Persian Empire which was centred in what is now modern Iraq and Iran, the Middle-East. Zoroaster was a prophet who received a vision from Ahura Mazda meaning 'Wise Lord' in which the tenets of Zoroastrian religion were made clear to him. Over time Zoroastrianism became inducted as the offical 'state' religion as indiciated by the royal inscriptions of King Darius' time in which he made reference to the Ahura Mazda in an attempt to appease the population by claiming his intent was made pure and sacred by the Almighty One. In fact Zoroastrianism was one of the first religions in the ancient world which could be described as purely monotheistic, despite the later integration of original folk beliefs and deities into the theology.

The central teachings of Zoroastrianism are:

* A belief in an afterlife as designated by the individual's ethical actions in life - Heaven and Hell
* The judgement of the soul
* A distinct responsibility to abide by the moral codes in order to shape your own fate
* At the end of time, Good and Evil would battle and Good would triumph
* A saviour will bring about redemption and cleanse the world of sin destroying all sinners and returning the world to a 'perfect state'
(very similar to Christian tenets of belief if you ask me!)

Now Zoroaster conceived that because there was such a force of pure goodness i.e. Ahura Mazda in the world there must certainly be an evil force equal in power personified as Angra Mainyu (later Ahriman). In essence his spirit exemplified all that is wicked in the world, Angra Mainyu meaning 'Evil Spirit'; the Destructive One. Humanity was believed to stand on the edge of a blade with the tempting allure of the daevas (the evil spirits who served Angra Mainyu) and the sacred purity of living by the convictions of Ahura Mazda.

Basically Zoroastrianism is the earliest known religious structure which focuses on the dualist division of the world and distinct embodiments of both forces which are believed to represent the ultimate fate of humanity based on moral living. The imagery, theology and very nature of the Christian Satan is probably modelled after Angra Mainyu.

Also I must interject on the comment made by MsFireHaven, however I do this in all respect as I too have a basic knowledge of Satanic philosophies and respect their attitudes and beliefs as valid pathways. The Pentagram is a symbol that has been used by various groups, individuals and civilisations which have attached various meanings to the symbol along the way. Medieval Christians, Greek Pythagoreans, the Sumerians, Wiccans and yes Modern Satanists all find valuable meaning in the symbol's physical nature and neither one has stolen from the other, it is simply a matter of faith and identifying with a particular symbol which holds relevance for the individual.

Namaste, Gede...

[dreamingmystic]

I agree with Msfire in that the satanist of today are really into self indulgence and take personal responsibility for themselves in their quest of doing anything they pretty much want to do. But Satan, IMHO is nothing more that a personifcation of Evil and a Christian concept. The idea that what we do on earth has an affect of gaining salvation in heaven or be burnt to a crisp in hell has never made much sense to me. It's a way of keeping people in line in order to gain power I think. Not that I have anything against Christians, I don't. It just isn't my cup of tea. There are a lot of Christians that I have admired, who truely believe in their faiths.

[aluokaloo]

i personally have nothing against satanist except that they took our star and inverted it and now the christians now adays think we're evil too. but wat lots of christians dont know is that they adopted our star way back to symblize the 5 wounds of christ.


So, who did we take the star from since everyone goes around taking stars? I mean we had to have taken it from somebody right? Seriously, though, they have a pentagram, we have the pentacle, catholics have their cross, and Jewish people have their Star of David.:colorful:

[punxzen]

i was gonna bring up the zoroastrians, but thats been covered rather thoroughly already, so ill just add a lil theory that popped into my head a couple days ago.

a basic tenet of certain gnostic sects is that all earthly/material life is evil, and was created by an evil demiurge (YHWH), and they believe that christ was definitely NOT the son of YHWH, but rather an incarnation of spiritual purity come to help guide the rest of us out of the trappings of this evil world. perhaps the greatest deception the devil ever performed was in convincing the majority of humanity that he was god :doh2:

[Merlinawakend777]

Heh i have a friend who had a simmilar theory, that god was actualy the devil, and that he trapped the real god in hell, and all this time has been tricking us to worship him, thus giving him power and keeping the real god trapped in hell,
but one day we would unleash the reall god and he will laugh saying ha ha ha, i am the devil suckers.
or something like that lol

[Holly Ariadna]

I don't think Satan emerged in his modern-day form for quite some time after the 'birth of jesus'... The christians created an omnipotent, eternally pure, good and loving God to worship. But what God would allow such tradgedies to take place in his world? They created a polarity, using the fallen angel of the bible, and based his looks upon the pagan horned God (who they were trying to eliminate as christianity was spread throughout Europe).

Disclaimer: I am not christian bashing. I have a lot of books on the devolpment of various religons and this is how I interpreted the information from them.

I think you're right about that, except it's not "made up", it's the symbol of all evil in this world.

[mcc]

I think you're right about that, except it's not "made up", it's the symbol of all evil in this world.
There's a pretty big difference between a symbol of evil and a sentient entity which embodies evil.

[dreamingmystic]

"There's a pretty big difference between a symbol of evil and a sentient entity which embodies evil."-MCC said.

Evil is only found in human kind IMHO. We are the only species that hurt each other for power, not survival.
Man created evil. Was there evil in the 65 million year reign of the dinasours? We as humans haven't been here all that long and my guess won't be here in 65 million years. I think Humans simply needed someone to blame, to take responsibility instead of being responsible for our own consequences. Sure there are evil people, but nothing but themselves make them that way.

[Gede]

MM~

Evil is only found in human kind IMHO. We are the only species that hurt each other for power, not survival.

I totally agree. Evil is a social construct that has developed over time as lust for wealth and power has overwhelmed our globalised world. It's disgusting really.

Namaste, Gede...

[Tobias]

MM~
Quote:
Evil is only found in human kind IMHO. We are the only species that hurt each other for power, not survival.


I totally agree. Evil is a social construct that has developed over time as lust for wealth and power has overwhelmed our globalised world. It's disgusting really.

Namaste, Gede...


I disagree. If you look at pack animals, you see that they fight and squirmish amounst themselves over stupid things like places to sit and feeding order. They also find pleasure in picking on the weekest member and take turns "beating him up".

Humans are not much different. We have the same mammal instincts. Everything we do is just a product of our training and enviroment. The school bully is usually the victim at home where he is taught that the strong pick on the weak, and is merely taking this same value system to school with him.

I don't beleive in Satan because I can see no logic in any concept of an "Ultimate Evil". To me, all evil is just error in judgement or inconsideration for your fellow human being. Jesus cast out many "unclean spirits", which I have also encountered. Apparently there are plenty of them who wish to attatch themselves to us to motivate us to carry out their vices. I'm not sure what drives them to do this, but the Christian concept of a united Satanic kingdom is rather far fetched.

[dreamingmystic]

I disagree. If you look at pack animals, you see that they fight and squirmish amounst themselves over stupid things like places to sit and feeding order. They also find pleasure in picking on the weekest member and take turns "beating him up".

Humans are not much different. We have the same mammal instincts. Everything we do is just a product of our training and enviroment. The school bully is usually the victim at home where he is taught that the strong pick on the weak, and is merely taking this same value system to school with him.

I don't beleive in Satan because I can see no logic in any concept of an "Ultimate Evil". To me, all evil is just error in judgement or inconsideration for your fellow human being. Jesus cast out many "unclean spirits", which I have also encountered. Apparently there are plenty of them who wish to attatch themselves to us to motivate us to carry out their vices. I'm not sure what drives them to do this, but the Christian concept of a united Satanic kingdom is rather far fetched.
It's true that animals fight and squirmish amoung themseves but most animals have a pecking order, such as the alfa male wolf who generally feeds before the others. Although I believe we still retain some of our instincts, the intellictural aspects of our mind tend to tame those instincts and I agree that it is also due in part of our environment. People are taught and tend to imitate adults to a certain degree because infants generally are thought to arrive with a tabla ruso or clean slate until we start learning about our environment. But evil as an entity is something I have a hard time believing in.

[Merlinawakend777]

ya know the whole learning of the enviroment discussed here, sound much like the celsine prophecy's control drama's lol

[Gede]

MM~
I have never related to the concept of 'Absolute Power' for either good or evil, it seems too fantastical and ordered...then again I could be wrong~

Namaste, Gede...

[ororo]

Actually, I started doing some personal research on subjects such as that. What I've come up with is in the Book of Enoch, that I couldn't get a hold of. I did, however, get some references to its contents. Its seems to talk of a particular mountain, I'll look up in my notes for the name of it, that the angels descended to take human wifes. The bad angels, that is. As to which angel is actually "Satan" is more of a mystery. Different books point to different major angels that were players in the act of betrayal. Azazel is one. I can't find the rest of my notes, though. Sorry. Try finding a copy of the Book of Enoch.

[Holly Ariadna]

There's a pretty big difference between a symbol of evil and a sentient entity which embodies evil.

Perhaps, but me and all my Catholic friends believe that Satan is a symbol of evil. :whatmewor

[Merlinawakend777]

Actually, I started doing some personal research on subjects such as that. What I've come up with is in the Book of Enoch, that I couldn't get a hold of. I did, however, get some references to its contents. Its seems to talk of a particular mountain, I'll look up in my notes for the name of it, that the angels descended to take human wifes. The bad angels, that is. As to which angel is actually "Satan" is more of a mystery. Different books point to different major angels that were players in the act of betrayal. Azazel is one. I can't find the rest of my notes, though. Sorry. Try finding a copy of the Book of Enoch.
I have heard the book of enoch had been destroyed because of the advanced encantations that gives people control over angels

ebnochin magick

ell that is what i heard anyways,

also that some of the things in magick today comes from the book of enoch, but the original book, the one that would be needed to summon and control angels is long gone,
i woul;d love to do it just once to see if it works! :broomride

[Grace]

I have heard the book of enoch had been destroyed because of the advanced encantations that gives people control over angels

ebnochin magick

ell that is what i heard anyways,

also that some of the things in magick today comes from the book of enoch, but the original book, the one that would be needed to summon and control angels is long gone,
i woul;d love to do it just once to see if it works! :broomride

Merlin
The book was written for good but can be used either way. Those with an evil heart will use it for evil.

[ororo]

The only copies I can find are copies that are under tight surveillance by the library and you have to where gloves for. When I went to go look at it, it was misisng.

Oh, and the Mountain is Arnoix or Arnox. I'm pretty sure it's the former, not the latter. My handwriting is horrid. Darn me.

[Kadynas]

As someone who loves a satanist, I have to interject....If Im not mistaken, we took their star.
A true satanist isnt about worshipping satan, its a religion of "self indulgence". You are your own god and answer to noone.
Just my 2 cents.
Kimmie
Actually you're both wrong. :) The pentagram, as far back as I know, was originally used by Solomon as one of his "seals"... Of course I could be wrong on that too... All I know is that the Christians and Jews had /some/ use for that symbol before the Satanists and Witches did. :)

[Dragonstarr]

oh yes and dont forget the pythagoreans....the pentagram was sacrad to them as well.
Blessings
~ravenwolf

[Dragonstarr]

ahhh...i looked up more info...its pre-babylonian but i couldny find any specifics as to exactly when it first appeared..which i think would be very interesting to know.....and also to know what its first use was and how it was discovered/designed. But anywho here are soemlinks on the history that i found interesting and the most in depth i could find.
http://www.geocities.com/guien78/pentacle.html
http://www.fionabroome.com/others/ChristianES_ChristmasStar2.htm
Blessings
~Dragonstarr

[Dragonstarr]

lol...i just realised i signed the second to last post as "ravenwolf", thats my name on another site....lol

[Merlinawakend777]

Merlin
The book was written for good but can be used either way. Those with an evil heart will use it for evil.
i don't want to ue it for evil, i just want to see if i can talk to an angel, hopefully a cute femine one LOL :shaker: :vanish: :deviltail :bothsides

[charmedkisses1]

I don't think Satan emerged in his modern-day form for quite some time after the 'birth of jesus'... The christians created an omnipotent, eternally pure, good and loving God to worship. But what God would allow such tradgedies to take place in his world? They created a polarity, using the fallen angel of the bible, and based his looks upon the pagan horned God (who they were trying to eliminate as christianity was spread throughout Europe).

Disclaimer: I am not christian bashing. I have a lot of books on the devolpment of various religons and this is how I interpreted the information from them.
There are pagan gods labeled god of war, god of chaos, etc.... what's you point?