Paths, Beliefs, and Culture

[mydemand]

I'm not sure if I've posted it in the right place (it certainly fits more than one board!) so feel free to move it where it would be more suitable.

There are many paths and traditions, Gods and Goddesses, practices and rituals, that are culture-based - meaning, everything about it is TIED to a particular culture. Now of course everything came from a specific culture - but there seems to be many that rely on cultural practices more than anything else.

For example, Native American beliefs - some Native Americans would feel offended if any of their beliefs and practices were used by people outside their culture. Shinto is very much tied in with Japanese culture - you don't find many Shinto practicioners that aren't Japanese! Strega and Italian culture are closely intertwined. So are the Drudic paths with Celtic culture.

There are some cultural paths that have been somewhat made "universal", i.e. the original cultural practices aren't so tightly adhered to anymore - for example, those worshipping Greek/Roman/Egyptian deities. And then there's some for whom the culture is so obscure that trying to reconstruct their original culture would be near impossible.

Would this necessarily be a good idea - borrowing from other cultures that are not your own? Would you practice a path that had nothing to do with your heritage - for example, practicing Stregha even though you are nowhere near Italian or being a Druid even though you can't possibly have any ancestors in the Irish/Scottish region? Would you encourage others to do the same? Would you care about culture, or consider yourself a "child of the world" and do what you want to do?

Do I even make sense? o_O

for me...well, I don't think there IS any magic in my culture - the closest thing would probably be Hinduism, since my family is from South Asia (Muslim), but I don't really feel a connection to it. Apparently I am a descendant of a Goddess - Alan Qo'a - but there is so little information on who she is and even if she IS a Goddess...then again, I am connected to Lilith, which is mainly a Jewish figure - something as far away from my culture as possible! And now I'm getting quite drawn to Aradia, Italian, also unlikely to be in my family tree. (At least Lilith has some possibility, since half my family tree was from the Arab region)

thoughts?

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, I am a "child of the world" Literally. My family heritage can be traced to over 20 distinct ethnic groups, ranging from Irish and Scottish, to German and Polish to Native American and African. So it's very difficult for me to identify with a specific culture!

I don't see anything wrong with following a path outside of your inerited culture as long as you do so with respect and responsibility.

[Cyclona]

I don't see anything wrong with following a path outside of your inerited culture as long as you do so with respect and responsibility.
I must agree with this. I'm Kemetic and desperately try to learn all I can about the Netjeru and the ancient land. Netjer called me in a not so subtle way, so it isn't my fault that I am worshiping Gods who are not of my inherited culture. *laughs* I do strive to learn all I can and emotionally imerse myself in the culture of ancient Kemet. As much as I am able with the information available.

[Shanti]

Well first of all many of us have a great mix of ancestry and some dont even know their bloodlines, like adopted kids. So then what?

You use Native Americans as an example but many teach that we are all connected. Also the practises of many cultures share some simularities.

Spirit, in my view, is not of blood or blood line. Spirit has no color. It is we who divide, not spirit.

If a person belives that their blood linked culture should only be practised by others of like blood, they can feel that way it is their right but it is the right of others to follow where their heart leads since it is led by a non-blood spirit.

Tolerance is hard, tolerance of sharing beliefs is hard too.

And if you dont know your blood line, then can you only believe in one of the few faiths that dont follow blood line? Are you limited just because you cant state who your ancesesters are? That seems unfair.

I always say that the only limits are the ones placed by the human condition. Spirit has no limits.

[Nighthawk]

Well, I will echo the above post.. I think it would be fine for you to practice anything your heart desires...

[Isa]

As a person who is not a bit Asian but uses plenty of Chinese and Japanese stuff in her Path I'd have to say: it depends on what you take. The problem with Shinto is it doesn't really have an organized set of beliefs, holidays or even moral codes. At it's base it's a collection of stories and traditions that connect modern Japanese with their ancient roots, different areas of Japan practice Shintoism differently. When you have something like that I wouldn't borrow it, because the only reason to really be Shinto is to be Japanese. It's not so much a religion as it is something people use to mark their heritage ... Otherwise there's no consistancy to it, what variation of it do you pick? It might have an affinity for Hachiman, but I'm not going to put him on my altar and make him a patron god. (also it should be noted that Shinto gods do not fit nicely into a Wiccan system there's too little balance between what the main gods represent)

On the other hand, if you take a religion that has common beliefs or a common message I see no reason why not to borrow. Buddhism, Taoism, even Confucianism ... they all present themselves as a way to live a good life verses the way to live a (eg) Japanese life. They all have wise things to say about the world, there's no reason not to borrow their thoughts

[Ben Trismegistus]

If we all stuck only to the religious beliefs that are tied to our ethnic heritages, many world religions would have died out by now.

[aftershocked]

I struggled with the exact question myself. I tried, very hard, to be a Celtic witch, since half my family was off-the-boat Irish. When Netjer called to me, I denied it for a few months (darn stubborn nature)-until one day when a sudden revelation occurred to me- basically, as Shanti said, spirit is outside blood.

In my rather complicated set of beliefs, your spirit, the essence of you, can be reincarnated as anyone, anywhere, for the purpose of learning a new 'life lesson'. But your Creator -the maker of your 'ba' or eternal spirit- remains the same. I believe that my Creators were Sekhmet and Yinepu. And as such, I very well could've been one of Their followers in ancient Kemet, that was placed in my current bloodline because I had something to learn from it.

So, in the world according to me, there is no shame in following any Deity or practice that you feel drawn to.

[Fideal]

The Celts were known to have adopted people into their tribes that were originally from other cultures I do believe. Just goes to show what many people on here have already said about spirit being outside of blood. With reincarnation, many possibilities are opened for spirits of different religions.

[argento_occhi]

I must agree with this. I'm Kemetic and desperately try to learn all I can about the Netjeru and the ancient land. Netjer called me in a not so subtle way, so it isn't my fault that I am worshiping Gods who are not of my inherited culture. *laughs* I do strive to learn all I can and emotionally imerse myself in the culture of ancient Kemet. As much as I am able with the information available.

I'm exactly the same. As far as i know, my heritage is welsh, irish, english basically, yet for some unknown reason, i've been drawn to Egypt my whole life. My dad has an interest in it and he comes to Egyptology lectures with me but that's the only link i can find. It's weird. When i think about Egypt, i feel like it's almost my home (apart from where i live, cos that's home too). It's a feeling i've never been able to explain or get rid of. A part or all of my soul must be Egyptian. I read stories (fiction) about Egypt and i feel like i'm reading about my homeland. It's the same with any books i read on Egypt. Of the seven or eight books i own, two of them cover the myths of Egypt and i read them and find i can relate to them as if they were my own. It's almost like non-indigenous Australians learning about indigenous culture, going out into the bush to learn from them instead of ignoring them. (us *white* aussies have done them bad, and the sooner we can reconcile with them, the sooner we can move on to a unified country -- i didn't want to use white, but it's the only word that works, kinda.)

bright blessings,
argent

[Athena-Nadine]

There is a big difference between following bloodlines and following culture. Asatru, for example, is usually considered an ethnically centered religion. Most Asatruar are so because that is where their ancestors came from. The Greeks and Romans, however, are more culturally centered. In most instances, bloodline isn’t as important as spirit. My spirit has been drawn to the Ancient Greeks and their culture since I was a child. Hence, I am a Hellenic Recon.

Cultural religions center around a philosophy, much like a nation does. Ethnic religions center around the folklore passed down through ancestors, and it usually varies between tribes and families.

There are some cultural paths that have been somewhat made "universal", i.e. the original cultural practices aren't so tightly adhered to anymore - for example, those worshipping Greek/Roman/Egyptian deities.Be careful with statements like this. There are many, many people who follow these cultures. The philosophies, values, laws, festivals, and other requirements for piety are followed very closely. They are often followed closer than most people think, even down to blood sacrifices. After all, a blood sacrifice is nothing more than a big barbecue, really. It’s no different than people who hunt and thank the animals’ spirits for their flesh. It is nothing but the act of dedicating a portion to the gods. The Greeks and Romans' religions are religions of orthopraxy. As such, following the culture of their gods is extremely important.

The fact that each of these cultures has had a huge influence on the Western world doesn’t mean that they have been assimilated by it. It just means that there are a some things that would be recognizable to many people today.
Sure, they have been modernized where necessary, but much in same ways that Christianity has. Women are no longer property and slaves are no longer acceptable, etc.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

There is a big difference between following bloodlines and following culture. Asatru, for example, is usually considered an ethnically centered religion. Most Asatruar are so because that is where their ancestors came from. The Greeks and Romans, however, are more culturally centered. In most instances, bloodline isn’t as important as spirit. My spirit has been drawn to the Ancient Greeks and their culture since I was a child. Hence, I am a Hellenic Recon.

Cultural religions center around a philosophy, much like a nation does. Ethnic religions center around the folklore passed down through ancestors, and it usually varies between tribes and families.

Be careful with statements like this. There are many, many people who follow these cultures. The philosophies, values, laws, festivals, and other requirements for piety are followed very closely. They are often followed closer than most people think, even down to blood sacrifices. After all, a blood sacrifice is nothing more than a big barbecue, really. It’s no different than people who hunt and thank the animals’ spirits for their flesh. It is nothing but the act of dedicating a portion to the gods. The Greeks and Romans' religions are religions of orthopraxy. As such, following the culture of their gods is extremely important.

The fact that each of these cultures has had a huge influence on the Western world doesn’t mean that they have been assimilated by it. It just means that there are a some things that would be recognizable to many people today.
Sure, they have been modernized where necessary, but much in same ways that Christianity has. Women are no longer property and slaves are no longer acceptable, etc.



Yet again you took the words right out of my mouth. Sometimes I swear you read my mind. :smileroll

[mydemand]

I'm sorry, I really wasn't sure how to phrase it.

It's just that nowadays you see many Pagans who take random deities and random practices from anywhere and just mash them together into this one big "hybrid" - but don't take the originating culture into their practice. I just mentioned Greek/Roman/Egyptian because they seemed to be more common. "Oh, I worship Venus and Aphrodite and Isis and make a nice big pretty altar even though I don't do anything else that's Greek or Roman or Egyptian", that kind of thing.

On the other hand I have seen some practitioners who feel offended when someone who isn't "of blood" takes their practices and culture into their own hands - they consider it stealing or defiling of what is sacred.

This whole big thread about borrowing/stealing/mixing other scriptures kinda reminded me of that too - many people were against borrowing scripture from other beliefs and adjusting them to your own benefits. What about actual PRACTICE?

B*B, Tiara
who, ironically, is rather eclectic

[Kohanu]

hi Nallia, glad to meet another Hellenic recon, I'm from the Mesopotamian side of the woods ;)

Have you been to the Axe & Oak multi-recon forums yet? Maybe your already there and I just didn't see you, if not though you should check it out when you get the chance, Hellenism is always discussed alot there :)

Now for the original poster, Lilith was definately not Hebrew originally, that was carried over through Sumerian lore. The Lilitu demoness was first encountered by the goddess Inanna (Ishtar) when she noticed the dark maid Lilitu had set up a home in her sacred tree, and so she ordered it to be cut down, where the demoness became furious and left. The Lilitu demons are wild spirits of the desert, contact not advised! lol

[Theres]

interesting Kohanu. can you shed any light on Belili and Lilith?

[Kohanu]

sure why not :)

That modern name Lilith from hebrew folklore comes from a Sumerian demoness called the Ardat Lili, part of a family group of demonic spirits. Funny thing is even this family group was carried over to the more modern folklore (wonder why the heck they did this?). The figure of Satan in folklore is also interesting, he could very well be the equivalent of the Lilu, a male equivalent to the Lilitu demoness. There are so many parallels, why? well because of the strange feature that almost of all hebrew folklore has strong connections with ancient Mesopotamia, and I still don't quite get why they would absorb these things but they did, probably due to the fact that the two cultures were so connected with each other in earlier times, its just what happens overtime, even with the big monotheist character that hebrews have.

The Lilu, Lilitu, and Ardat Lili are a sort of family of demons in Mesopotamian lore. (and yes this is where we get the Incubus and Succubus demons). They aren't along the lines of the gods or beings of light. They haunt deserts, open countrysides, and are especially dangerous to pregnant women and infants. The Ardat Lili means "Maiden Lilitu" perhaps to designate her as a queen Lilitu. This will sound a big funny but if want to know her character here goes lol ;)
She seems to have the character of a violently frustrated female, incapable of soft sensual passion, so she takes her violence out usually on innocent young men. She is often mentioned in Magical Texts, another strong connection with her more modern aspect in Lilith. Isaiah 34:14 is said to be speaking of this demoness. She was believed to cause impotence in men and sterility in women. She is often pictured in ancient artwork as a scorpion-taled she-wolf about to devour a young girl, or as a demonic form of the popular Ishtar-image where she's depicted with wings, horned helmet, and birds' feet.

Belili is a different figure in both Sumerian and Akkadian (Babylonian) lore. Mostly she's figured in the the story of Dumuzi/Tammuz, a legendary shephered king of Uruk. In the Akkadian version she is the same figure as Geshtinanna, which is his sister, but the older Sumerian version has her as an old woman who supposedly tried to protect Dumuzi from the demons that were to slay him and take him into the Netherworld.

Dumuzi is a god of vegetation and the springtime, a dying/rising deity who is mourned on the Summer Solstice especially by women because he must return to the Netherworld for half the year, while Geshtinanna, his counterpart rises during the autumn season. She is an autumn goddess of the vine and of wine-making. When Dumuzi was taken captive she ripped off her jewels and clothes and mourned for him, so that is why every Summer he is mourned by Women. Those women mourners became a well-known little bunch that were mentioned in the hebrew bible, mourning for Tammuz.....

[DebLipp]

I have no interest at all in Jewish mysticism. ::shrug::

Our ethnicity is just this life. We may have connections to paths from past lives. Food for thought.