Perfect Love and Pefect Trust

[Arinya]

What does the statement, "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" mean to you? Do you follow it? Is it a part of your personal code of ethics? Are "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" an important factor in your magical practices?

[Sibylle]

Well, the perfect love, perfect trust principle applies mostly to coven work, where it's necessary to be completely open in order to achieve any kind of meaningful spiritual work. I'm not in a coven, and obviously I'm not running around my everyday life loving and trusting everyone, LOL. But to a certain extend this principle applies to my relationship with very close friends...

What does it mean to you?

Hugs!!

[skilly-nilly]

What does the statement, "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" mean to you? Do you follow it? Is it a part of your personal code of ethics? Are "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" an important factor in your magical practices?

Yes.
I am not a Wiccan and not covened, so I don't share a body of dogma with any other people and don't consider any human beings to embody perfection. It seems, from a quick google search, to generally be interpreted as being the state of mind one should carry into your coven's circle but I personally do not see it that way.

I also have a strong antipathy to the use of archaic language to make things seem more valid or important. I feel that people express themselves best in their most fluent vocabulary and that they should stick to it in their important spiritual writings. nb I acknowledge that I write in a somewhat dated voice, but I actually speak this way too so unless the modern author of the Rede uses all of those funny words and phraseology when she's chatting with friends my objection stands.
This makes me find the poem as a whole rather unpleasantly twee.

However, I really like the one phrase.

I am both dedicated to a Goddess and a personifier of Her, and to me this phrase echos the relationship we have
She has Perfect Love for me (being not-human, this is possible) and I endeavor to act in Perfect Trust towards Her (a struggle, since I am human)

I have it as a bumper sticker on the back of my car, along with a Green Party sticker and a Darwin Fish.
:bubbles: , skilly-nilly

[alesay]

Yes. It's an unspoken bond between you and your coven-mates. You should be able to enter and exit your circle with love in your heart and nothing outside to interfere. I can't help but have it work it's self in my life, with my friends, my boyfriend... It's a good way to live with those who you trust. and in a crazy world like we have, it's difficult to have someone who you can trust.

[Shadowolff]

Yes.

I am both dedicated to a Goddess and a personifier of Her, and to me this phrase echos the relationship we have
She has Perfect Love for me (being not-human, this is possible) and I endeavor to act in Perfect Trust towards Her (a struggle, since I am human)


That pretty much says it for me. As the years go by, I find it ever easier to trust in Her (even when, and maybe especially when, my understanding lags behind).

The more my love for/from Her increases, the easier it is to love those with whom I interact, the more loving my behavior becomes, the happier I am, and the more I find that I am bringing Her love to other children of hers as well... I expect the best from others, but do I have perfect trust that they will never disappoint or let me down? Of course not, we're all fallable. (And if you meet people who aren't, you just don't know them well enough yet.)

I don't belong to coven or church or bonded group of like-minded believers so that doesn't aply...

[Arinya]

Intresting responses thus far, I honestly didn't know that "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" was such a strong coven concept, but then I have never been in one nor plan to be in one anytime soon. In my mind, the phrase means that when I do magical work I do it for myself and not against myself nor against another and that I do it with trust in my abilities and in my own strength. Also, it is a way of offering myself to the Divine and accepting that as long as I work by and through the divine I am giving them my ultimate respect and love which equals perfect trust, and that I shall be given it in return.

[Sibylle]

Intresting responses thus far, I honestly didn't know that "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" was such a strong coven concept, but then I have never been in one nor plan to be in one anytime soon. In my mind, the phrase means that when I do magical work I do it for myself and not against myself nor against another and that I do it with trust in my abilities and in my own strength. Also, it is a way of offering myself to the Divine and accepting that as long as I work by and through the divine I am giving them my ultimate respect and love which equals perfect trust, and that I shall be given it in return.
Mmmm - I like that!

[mothwench]

no. that is actually the one thing that's always kept me away from wicca. i can't promise anyone thing perfect love and perfect trust. i think there should always be room for scepticism.

[mucgwyrt]

edit:

:uhhuhuh: yes, and in my opinion Gardner was untrustworthy and so rather hypocritical when it came to that one.

[Tullip Troll]

:uhhuhuh: and lets face it, Gardner was a bit of a double-crossing traitorous hypocrite when it came to that one ;)

Yep Yep Yep what she said.

MheraPai

[MorningDove030202]

I feel that perfect love and perfect trust means that to get the most out of ritual you need to love and trust your Gods, and you need to love and trust the people you are performing a ritual with. I've been in ritual with someone I didn't trust and it was awful. If you can't set aside personal issues for the sake of ritual, I feel that I shouldn't do ritual with that person.

But even if you are skeptical about things, I think you can still get alot out of ritual.

Dove :yayhawaii

[Ben Trismegistus]

:uhhuhuh: and lets face it, Gardner was a bit of a double-crossing traitorous hypocrite when it came to that one ;)
Can we lay off the Gardner-bashing please? Some of us here are actually Gardnerian Wiccans.

[Druchii]

What does the statement, "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" mean to you? Do you follow it? Is it a part of your personal code of ethics? Are "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" an important factor in your magical practices?

Nope not in the least...

[mucgwyrt]

I wasn't bashing, I was stating an opinion - he may have made that rede/law/whatever, but he certainly didn't deserve to have the 'perfect trust' of his coven members. What he did and who he was casts no shadow on who you are and what you practise.

[skilly-nilly]

:uhhuhuh: and lets face it, Gardner was a bit of a double-crossing traitorous hypocrite when it came to that one ;)


:uzi: No, say what you really think!

:veryweird , skilly-nilly (who agrees)

I apologize for being carried away into sarcasm(by giant fanged bats), but this encapsulates my personal problems with having human beings as religious leaders. Their human failings inevitably distort the message, and the distorted message can then be spoken against. Thus obscuring the message from God/s/dess/desses that started the religion and remains the ideal.

[MorningDove030202]

So in other words you are saying it's wrong to worship people, and I think most of us would agree.

Still, I wouldn't have a name for my faith if it wasn't for Gardner. I think he's worth a bet of respect, dispite his faults.

Dove

[Ben Trismegistus]

I wasn't bashing, I was stating an opinion - he may have made that rede/law/whatever, but he certainly didn't deserve to have the 'perfect trust' of his coven members. What he did and who he was casts no shadow on who you are and what you practise.
Calling him a "double-crossing traitorous hypocrite" isn't bashing?

What exactly did he do to give you this opinion?

(And by the way, Gardner did not write "that rede/law/whatever".)

[savannahrose44]

Calling him a "double-crossing traitorous hypocrite" isn't bashing?

What exactly did he do to give you this opinion?

(And by the way, Gardner did not write "that rede/law/whatever".)

Ben I don't think it was her intention to bash your religon. She was stating her opinion of Gardner as a person, speaking to his character. You shouldn't take it personal.

As for the "perfect love and perfect trust" thing...I am not perfect in any way shape or form and to say that I do or say anything with perfect love and perfect trust would be a lie. I do try to encorporate love and trust into my life and relationships, but it's far from perfect. :D

[Ben Trismegistus]

Ben I don't think it was her intention to bash your religon. She was stating her opinion of Gardner as a person, speaking to his character. You shouldn't take it personal.
I'm not taking it personally. But I think that if you call a guy a double-crossing traitorous hypocrite, you should be prepared with examples to back it up. Because while I admit that Gardner was not a perfect human being, I'd hardly call him a double-crossing traitorous hypocrite.

[savannahrose44]

I'm not taking it personally. But I think that if you call a guy a double-crossing traitorous hypocrite, you should be prepared with examples to back it up. Because while I admit that Gardner was not a perfect human being, I'd hardly call him a double-crossing traitorous hypocrite.

And I would tend to agree...It's good if you're not taking it personally, but you seemed a little heated which lead me to beleive that you were. My mistake. :collapse:

[Ben Trismegistus]

And I would tend to agree...It's good if you're not taking it personally, but you seemed a little heated which lead me to beleive that you were. My mistake. :collapse:
Yeah, I was heated.

[Arinya]

*waves goodbye to the old topic of perfect love and perfect trust*
:geez:

[Grey]

*returns to said topic triumphantly*

Personally thats the policy that I use with all my friends, and anyone that comes to me for help in anything. I feel that I must be completely open and honest with them to inspire the same from them towards me... and only when they are honest with me and themselves can the problem be located and a solution found.

In the use of magic or metaphysics this bond would be equally important of course.

[mucgwyrt]

Calling him a "double-crossing traitorous hypocrite" isn't bashing?

What exactly did he do to give you this opinion?

(And by the way, Gardner did not write "that rede/law/whatever".)
ok, got to make it quick I'm afraid, but -
1) upon initiation he and his coven members agreed/promised to maintain the secrecy of the coven... and then against his coven member's wishes and best interests he went public, publishing their 'secrets' bit by bit by bit until his coven went their seperate ways in disgust.
2) at one point he re-wrote one of the rules in their coven's BOS in order to get rid of priestess (damned if I can remember her name) and get someone younger.
3) He also apparently faked a lot of documents (including but not limited to the aforementioned) because he wanted his coven members to do things his way, and to fill in the gaps in his knowledge.

I can find references for all that if you'd like/need, but either way I would say that the above qualifies him as a "hypocrite" when it came to him preaching the virtues of 'perfect love & perfect trust', as well as a "traitor" to his coven members.

[Shatril]

I would never enter a circle where they were working magic and calling quarters with someone that I did not have "perfect love and perfect trust" in. That is dangerous, and stupid to go into a circle with people whose intentions you cannot guess at. Unless of course you really aren't working magic.

Perfect love and perfect trust does not have to go down to the lovers relationship. This is different. Perfect love, is having the other persons best interest at heart and they having yours at heart, wishing them no evil, leaving your ego at the door in order to work magic that is in the best interest of all involved. Perfect trust means that you would trust them with your life in a magic circle, as the magic you work will impact your life. This isn't some fluffy crap, this is necessary to protect yourself and your "coven" mates.

Shatril

[Phi]

I am not Wiccan, although I respect that belief.

The thread got me to thinking, and I wanted to ask:
Don't you think that your real , deep feelings might come into play or rather out to play in a mage working?

I mean suppose that someone in your group always seemed to put you down a bit, and you harbored resentment due to that; couldn't that come out and hurt the one you harbor resentment for with all shields down? Or someone you were a bit jealous of? Or someone who always came off as a bit bossy, a know it all to you? That sort of thing?

Also couldn't it be the other way round too, someone who had a bit of hard feeling toward you might bring you subconsciously to a bit of harm from those feelings that one tries so hard not to have, and to hide?

And couldn't that feeling one tries to deny cause some difficulty in the joining of powers to accomplish something as a group?

It seems to me that it would. Anybody think so?
Could this be what the perfectionof your love and trust for one another whom you enter circle with,means? (Bad sentence there, but you know what I mean>)

[tree_guy]

the perfection of love and trust in people is a base factor in faith of the moment in which we act upon,(building relations, magick, what-have-you)

the problem with people is that they will always think for themselves. opinions won't always be the same, so to stride to the perfection, there will be rifts along the way,...lots of rifts.

the choice of storing faith in the Mother or in some chap(s) is a bridge we all cross.
it all depends where your love lies.

i am not wiccan. i do not practice in groups. my thoughts are my own. my love for the Mother is uncompromised. i tend to walk alone.

thanks for hearing me.
have a good day.

[NivekDrgnMage]

OK I do belong to a coven, and we have alot of open rituals with people I don't know. So Perfect love and perfect trust is in myself, and the fact that I am there to lend my energies to the ritual.
We are humans not Gods so there is no way you can love and trust someone you don't know, but the idea is to love and trust in yourself and in your gods and goddess.
As far as harm, it is imposible to go though life without harming somthing; you walk down the street step on a bug that is harm, you walk across the grass that is harm...so harm to me anyway is the deliberate and willful act to cause harm, intent play a big role. I skip a rock on a pond and that rock kills a fish my intent was not to kill the fish...but my action cause that death, will I have to pay 3 fold? NO!
People in Covens may not always see eye to eye, but a coven is a family. I use to fight with my blood sisters all the time and that didn't mean I didn't love them. A Coven are people of like minds and beliefs.....that is why most coven have a long period to feel out and learn about new pertitioners. before allowing them into the coven.

[Shatril]

Open rituals are not real magic working of the type that I was talking about. Open rituals to me are nothing but fluff stuff. Not that they can't be effective, but still not something that one would consider "dangerous". If I felt that my coven mates were harboring petty jealousies, or putting me or anyone else down, I would have to leave the coven. This has to be on the basis of equality. True some of the group may have more experience, but this can be taught to the others in a non-threatening way. If someone reacts as if threatened, it is generally their own insecurities that place them in that position, and when this happens it is time for them to move on.

I don't plan on taking these people on as life mate, and I don't know what kind of crap that would entail in a coven. However, I think that trust and love are important to safe magic within groups.

I do actually prefer to do some magic/ritual work alone, and mostly do this type of work.

[NivekDrgnMage]

Granted that Open rituals are different from close, But I disagree about the type or degree of magick one can find in an Open. I grant you Open rituals are not normally High magick.

Group energies are different then that which one creates themself (alone). Most people wouldn't know the feel of a group if not for what you call "Fluff" open rituals ;)

And I agree that I would not wish to be in a coven with Negative energies from its members. But that is why it took me and my wife a year to become members of our Coven. Year is a long time to go to classes and events before becoming a member.

[Shatril]

I wasn't trying to say Open Rituals are not effective, and I believe I said as much. You are correct when you say that is sometimes how people first get introduced to the energy. Fluff Stuff is a good thing, I guess I didn't make that clear. I respect this and everyone's beliefs. I guess I'm doing a bad job of explaining what I mean by all of this. :bangyourh There is some magic that you need to do in group, and you need very good coven mates to do it. That is what I mean. My coven mates are family, in some ways they are closer than my family. I think that we can safely say that we all have different definitions of Perfect Love & Perfect Trust, and it is all good. I think some of you are hung up by the word perfect, and reading way more into it than I mean by the comments that I have made. No one is perfect, therefore to expect Perfect Love in all aspects of ones relationship with a person is nonsense, and this is not what my expectation is. I hope this is clearer than the last post.

[NivekDrgnMage]

:D Perhaps it was me that was misunderstood. I then to agree with you, I wasn't get on your case. I was just pointing out my view in the matter.
:) and that I tend to use fluff in a different context. So all is good!

BB

[Ben Trismegistus]

ok, got to make it quick I'm afraid, but -
1) upon initiation he and his coven members agreed/promised to maintain the secrecy of the coven... and then against his coven member's wishes and best interests he went public, publishing their 'secrets' bit by bit by bit until his coven went their seperate ways in disgust.
2) at one point he re-wrote one of the rules in their coven's BOS in order to get rid of priestess (damned if I can remember her name) and get someone younger.
3) He also apparently faked a lot of documents (including but not limited to the aforementioned) because he wanted his coven members to do things his way, and to fill in the gaps in his knowledge.
This is (presumably) assuming that Gardner was initiated into a coven at all. Most of the Wiccan community agrees that the entire story of Gardner's coven was fabricated in order to give Wicca an older, more traditional appearance - rather than simply a new religion that he pieced together from ancient and modern sources with the help of a few local occultists. Read Hutton's Triumph of the Moon for a detailed description of how Wicca *really* came into being.

Gardner was by no means a perfect person, but you can't believe everything you read about him.

Now, this is entirely off-topic, so I won't address this again. If you wish to discuss it further, feel free to set up a separate thread.

[DebLipp]

Perfect Love and Perfect Love is a way of doing something in a coven, in a limited way. Because to love all humanity has been tried by many religions and it's not workable; we don't succeed at that. But it's still a great goal. So we set up a controlled and enclosed space, the coven, and work to achieve it there.

[DebLipp]

ok, got to make it quick I'm afraid, but -
1) upon initiation he and his coven members agreed/promised to maintain the secrecy of the coven... and then against his coven member's wishes and best interests he went public, publishing their 'secrets' bit by bit by bit until his coven went their seperate ways in disgust.
2) at one point he re-wrote one of the rules in their coven's BOS in order to get rid of priestess (damned if I can remember her name) and get someone younger.
3) He also apparently faked a lot of documents (including but not limited to the aforementioned) because he wanted his coven members to do things his way, and to fill in the gaps in his knowledge.

I can find references for all that if you'd like/need, but either way I would say that the above qualifies him as a "hypocrite" when it came to him preaching the virtues of 'perfect love & perfect trust', as well as a "traitor" to his coven members.

I'm going to address this briefly. You didn't say "In my opinion," you said "Let's face it." On a purely linguistic level, "let's face it" indicates that "we" all know something. "Let's face it, the sky is cloudy, so it'll probably rain." It's an acknowledgement of group knowledge, not an opinion. Now, you say you meant it as an opinion, and that's fine, we all mis-speak, it's the Internet after all, but I do wish to point out that it's the very sentence structure that might make someone think you are bashing.

As to the rest, you don't have first hand knowledge. The thing about re-writing the Laws is true and is documented, but the reasons behind it are purely conjecture. Eyewitnesses think it had more to do with media interaction. He "apparently" "faked" "a lot" of documents. Again, each of these are phrases of conjecture. If he made the whole thing up, then how could any of it have been more fake than the rest? In fact, he also taught his coven that they were to add documents and rituals to the BOS, so new additions don't necessarily qualify as "fake."

It is documented that Gardner made up stories and tall tales. It is also documented that he was well loved and respected by his initiates, including the "older" priestess to whom you refer. To say that he practiced Love and Trust imperfectly is as true of Gardner as it is of the rest of us. To call him names is inappropriate. "Double-crossing" "traitorous" and "hypocrite" are each about as strong as you can get without actually cursing; you used all three. Sorry, but I think it's totally out of line. It far overstates the case. What you have evidence for is far less; you have evidence for, perhaps, fakery, perhaps dishonesty, perhaps even obnoxiousness. But "traitorous"? Where? "Double-crossing"? Whom?

If you'd started by saying that Gardner wasn't always trustworthy, that would have been a reasonable statement to interact with. But hateful language isn't justified by a situation of "not always trustworthy" and backing off and saying it's just your opinion doesn't make it right.

[dragenfly]

Intresting responses thus far, I honestly didn't know that "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" was such a strong coven concept, but then I have never been in one nor plan to be in one anytime soon. In my mind, the phrase means that when I do magical work I do it for myself and not against myself nor against another and that I do it with trust in my abilities and in my own strength. Also, it is a way of offering myself to the Divine and accepting that as long as I work by and through the divine I am giving them my ultimate respect and love which equals perfect trust, and that I shall be given it in return.

Me too. No coven here I never even thought that "In perfect Love and Perfect Trust" was for covens, I used it in reference to my being of pure intent and that I will put my full trust in the powers that be.

[morrigen]

no. that is actually the one thing that's always kept me away from wicca. i can't promise anyone thing perfect love and perfect trust. i think there should always be room for scepticism.

*nods*

It always seemed much like dogma from other faiths that asked followers to believe things not because they felt it in their bones/hearts/marrow, but because it was a generally accepted part of religious tradition and was to be taken as a given, regardless.

So, yes.. as a free-thinker of long standing.....it's principles like this that allow me to embrace witchcraft, but not wicca.

[Tea Leaf]

I only use the "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" concept in regard to the gods, more like a symbol or statement of my feelings and belifes.

[mucgwyrt]

point taken; entry ammended.

[DebLipp]

point taken; entry ammended.
...and since I criticized you publically, I'll say publically, rather than by PM, that you show real integrity by doing so.

[Ben Trismegistus]

It always seemed much like dogma from other faiths that asked followers to believe things not because they felt it in their bones/hearts/marrow, but because it was a generally accepted part of religious tradition and was to be taken as a given, regardless.

So, yes.. as a free-thinker of long standing.....it's principles like this that allow me to embrace witchcraft, but not wicca.
So are you saying that "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" isn't something worth trying? Is it dogmatic to attempt something like that?

[morrigen]

No, it's something I believe is definately worth striving for, and I wish it was always possible. In my version of Utopia, it would be...


But unfortunately, in this world, not everything can be taken at face value...sometimes, I cannot placee implicit trust in information that comes my way.

I'm an old cynic....I will always check my sources before taking something on board as truth.

[Shatril]

At first I was ready to toss out the idea of Perfect Love and Perfect Trust as not necessary for the solitary witch, but the more I read these responses I can see where it is necessary there as well. Perfect love meaning to me that my love for Spirit is pure and complete, and Perfect Trust that the power that I bring to bare on the subject of my magic working will come to fruition. This fits right in with the witches pyramid. Thank you all for joggling my mind, and making me realize this.

Isn't it funny that you can read something so many times and you understand the meaning of the individual words, but you don't get the meaning until someone drops a house on you.

[mucgwyrt]

...and since I criticized you publically, I'll say publically, rather than by PM, that you show real integrity by doing so.
Thanks - I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong or out of line; how else does one learn? :smile: