Athenic Wicca

[MorningDove030202]

Greetings,

I like to call myself a Athenic Wiccan because Athena is my patron diety and I do focus on the Greek Gods in general, but I'm not realy a reconstructionist. So, I thought if there could be a Dianic Wicca, why not Athenic? I have been attracted to both for a long time and finaly settled on Athena because she is more egalitarian, and also in her myth she adopted a child from Gaia, so she also has mothering qualities. I've written a special prayer to Athena a few months back.......

My Third Day Prayer to Athena

Oh, wise Athena with your spear and shield,

protect me and my family from injustice and harm.

Council me with your wisdom so that I may make the best decisions.

Grant me success in my endevors,

but keep me humble so that I might not become condescending to others.

I thank you for the many times you have guided me on my Path.

Share with me your mysteries and I will do my best to follow.

Athena, my Goddess, I pray this in your sacred name,

and I vow to always be your faithful dedicant.

-Dove origninal 4/3/0

Edit: I call my path Athenic Wicca and Athena is my Patron, but that does not mean that all others who follow Athena must call themselves "Athenic". They may title their path in their own way, as they see fit.

[Athena-Nadine]

"Athenic" isn't a word. The proper term would be "Athenian" or "Hellenic."

[MorningDove030202]

"Athenic" isn't a word. The proper term would be "Athenian" or "Hellenic."

Uh, it is a word because I just invented it. If there can be Dianic Wicca, then I can call my path Athenic Wicca.

Dove

[Strawberry Bounce]

I don't see why not.

[IvyWitch]

While I don't see a problem with "inventing" a word, but why do you need to invent a new one when a word for it exists already...?

[punxzen]

While I don't see a problem with "inventing" a word, but why do you need to invent a new one when a word for it exists already...?

because words are more than just rational indicators or signs, hence poetry :)

[banondraig]

While I don't see a problem with "inventing" a word, but why do you need to invent a new one when a word for it exists already...?

because it doesn't exist already. the "Athenian" example suggested by Nallia refers to something stemming from the city of Athens. what the person who started the thread is referring to is different enough from that to merit a separate word, imo.

[Theres]

hmmm... i usually defer to Nallia on all things Greek, but i believe that "Athenian" refers to someone or something from Athens.

[Athena-Nadine]

Uh, it is a word because I just invented it. If there can be Dianic Wicca, then I can call my path Athenic Wicca.

DoveDove, you can call whatever it is you practice whatever you feel like calling it. I don't particularly care. Your expressions of piety are between you and Athena. I can't help but wonder, however, why you bothered to ask the question if you didn't want honest answers.

hmmm... i usually defer to Nallia on all things Greek, but i believe that "Athenian" refers to someone or something from Athens.*...smiles...* Actually, "Athenian" literally translates as "of Athena," not "of Athens." While it has been--and is most often--used to denote residents of Athens, it is a term used to denote anything or anyone of Athena, including every one of Her temples and worshippers. Priests and priestesses of Athena are Athenian, as are the their rituals, practices, and other expressions of piety.

[MorningDove030202]

Dove, you can call whatever it is you practice whatever you feel like calling it. I don't particularly care. Your expressions of piety are between you and Athena. I can't help but wonder, however, why you bothered to ask the question if you didn't want honest answers.

*...smiles...* Actually, "Athenian" literally translates as "of Athena," not "of Athens." While it has been--and is most often--used to denote residents of Athens, it is a term used to denote anything or anyone of Athena, including every one of Her temples and worshippers. Priests and priestesses of Athena are Athenian, as are the their rituals, practices, and other expressions of piety.

Well then what about Dianic? I doubt they would chainge to Dianian..... I'm just following the example that they set. I'm not trying to be "historicaly correct", I'm not a reconstructionist.

Dove

[IvyWitch]

Well then what about Dianic? I doubt they would chainge to Dianian..... I'm just following the example that they set. I'm not trying to be "historicaly correct", I'm not a reconstructionist.

Dove

Yeah, but if you notice people don't use one suffix for every nationality. Germanian and Isralian are not words you hear when talking about people from Germany and Isreal. And not being a reconstructionalist has nothing to do with it - I don't know of any wiccans who call themselves "Wiccists".

[punxzen]

Yeah, but if you notice people don't use one suffix for every nationality. Germanian and Isralian are not words you hear when talking about people from Germany and Isreal. And not being a reconstructionalist has nothing to do with it - I don't know of any wiccans who call themselves "Wiccists".

if you understand what she is saying, why does it matter?

[Athena-Nadine]

Yeah, but if you notice people don't use one suffix for every nationality. Germanian and Isralian are not words you hear when talking about people from Germany and Isreal. And not being a reconstructionalist has nothing to do with it - I don't know of any wiccans who call themselves "Wiccists".
*...nods...* Not to mention that Diana is Roman and Athena is Greek.

[IvyWitch]

if you understand what she is saying, why does it matter?

Because I feel like there is a logic issue here?

[Theres]

*...smiles...* Actually, "Athenian" literally translates as "of Athena," not "of Athens." While it has been--and is most often--used to denote residents of Athens, it is a term used to denote anything or anyone of Athena, including every one of Her temples and worshippers. Priests and priestesses of Athena are Athenian, as are the their rituals, practices, and other expressions of piety.
well that's pretty cool.

see, i never should've doubted you! :hearteyes

[Theres]

*...nods...* Not to mention that Diana is Roman and Athena is Greek.
right. and it wouldn't be 'Artemisic'.


(but i think we've really managed to sidetrack MorningDove's topic...)

[Athena-Nadine]

right. and it wouldn't be 'Artemisic'.


(but i think we've really managed to sidetrack MorningDove's topic...)
True, but I couldn't help it. I love pondering these things. :)

[Phoenix Blue]

I'm not trying to be "historicaly correct", I'm not a reconstructionist.
Then why bother to worship a historical Goddess at all? Why not just make one up?

[MorningDove030202]

Then why bother to worship a historical Goddess at all? Why not just make one up?

What's the differnece? Wern't They all made up at one point or another? Or at least weren't Her stories made up by people? Even though Her myths are divinely inspired (IMHO), I don't believe that anyting is 100% divinely inspired, there is still human influence involved. It doesn't matter to me if she was made up along time ago vs yesterday.

Besides I worship her because I like her mythology and her qualities, and becuase she answeres my questions when I ask.

Artimic sound rather nice too, don't you think? I don't think there is anything wrong with having more than one way to describe the same thing...

:headphone Dianic, Artimic, Athenian, Athenic..... lets call the whole thing off! :headphone

Dove

[Athena-Nadine]

What's the differnece? Wern't They all made up at one point or another? Or at least weren't Her stories made up by people? Even though Her myths are divinely inspired (IMHO), I don't believe that anyting is 100% divinely inspired, there is still human influence involved. It doesn't matter to me if she was made up along time ago vs yesterday.

Besides I worship her because I like her mythology and her qualities, and becuase she answeres my questions when I ask.

Artimic sound rather nice too, don't you think?

:seehearsp

Dove
So, what you're basically saying is that you have absolutely no respect for Her, Her culture or Her history.

[Ahautenites]

I'm not sure I'd want to try to worship a god or goddess that I thought had "just been made up." Not only would it mean that you're mightier than the gods Themselves (by definition, an inventor of gods would have to be), but, on the off chance (a very good chance, I might add) that They're not made up... well, at best, They'll ignore you. At worst, They'll make your life a torment.

[Phoenix Blue]

What's the differnece? Wern't They all made up at one point or another?
The difference is one of making up somthing original versus distorting a concept of a Goddess who already exists. If you want to call the voice in your head Athena, that's fine; but don't try to equate that with the historical Athena unless you're willing to do a little bit of homework and find out what She's actually about.

Artimic sound rather nice too, don't you think? I don't think there is anything wrong with having more than one way to describe the same thing...
I think you're just trolling at this point.

[punxzen]

this is very disheartening. i would have thought you folks to be a bit more open-minded
The difference is one of making up somthing original versus distorting a concept of a Goddess who already exists. If you want to call the voice in your head Athena, that's fine; but don't try to equate that with the historical Athena unless you're willing to do a little bit of homework and find out what She's actually about.

why not?

I think you're just trolling at this point.
can you explain how anything in this thread is 'trolling'?

[Athena-Nadine]

The term is Artemisian, and it is used frequently for various Traditions.

Like I said earlier--call whatever it is you practice whatever you want. It's your choice. The fact that you're not a Reconstructionist, however, does not absolve you of responsibility to the gods you choose to worship (there is Hellenic Wicca, and it has nothing to do with being a Recon).

The way I see it, there are two choices. Either learn about your gods and respect Them as is Their due, or practice your faith without integrity, honesty, or respect. It's your choice, but the Greek gods find hubris and impiety quite offensive, and Athena cares very little for people who aren't willing to show Her the proper respect, which includes addressing Her properly. I know this all too well, for She has been one of my Patrons for over 20 years, and have been studying to be clergy for a year and a half. So ask yourself--what's more important to you? Your gods or your ego?

That said, I am going to have to drop out of this thread. The blatant disrespect being shown to my gods is making me sick to my stomach.

[punxzen]

I'm not sure I'd want to try to worship a god or goddess that I thought had "just been made up." Not only would it mean that you're mightier than the gods Themselves (by definition, an inventor of gods would have to be), but, on the off chance (a very good chance, I might add) that They're not made up... well, at best, They'll ignore you. At worst, They'll make your life a torment.

can you explain why a god would ignore or torment someone who thought that they were made up?

[Phoenix Blue]

why not?
Because she's offered no reason for people here who do worship Athena to believe that she's talking about the same "Athena" they are. No one has to disprove a claim that she can't prove in the first place.

can you explain how anything in this thread is 'trolling'?
I can find no other reason d'aitre for someone who deliberately attempts to distort both an established religion and an established language in the same thread.

[Ahautenites]

can you explain why a god would ignore or torment someone who thought that they were made up?


Well, let's put it this way: If you had created people because you wanted to bring something wonderful into the world and be loved and adored and be able to dote on your creations.... and then they turned around and said that you don't exist and that they just made you up, wouldn't this hurt your feelings enough to make you not want to help them at all or even to make you want to just flick them in the head with your gigantic deified fingers for daring to be such morons? I would. But then, I'm a vindictive wench anyway. Otherwise, I'd be like, "Heh. You 'invented' me. So go invent solutions to your own problems. Don't come cryin' to me for anything. You're on your own."

[punxzen]

The term is Artemisian, and it is used frequently for various Traditions.
im not quite sure where your fixation on using correct terminology stems from, but quite a few people prefer to use their own terminology as it much more accurately reflects their own cosmology or world-view or it just flows off their tongue easier.

Like I said earlier--call whatever it is you practice whatever you want. It's your choice. The fact that you're not a Reconstructionist, however, does not absolve you of responsibility to the gods you choose to worship (there is Hellenic Wicca, and it has nothing to do with being a Recon).
again, i dont care if you have spent ten thousand lifetimes worshipping the same god/s, what you see as responsibility to the gods you choose to worship is entirely yours. do not assume that others are bound by the same tenets.

The way I see it, there are two choices. Either learn about your gods and respect Them as is Their due, or practice your faith without integrity, honesty, or respect.
or practice your faith with integrity, honesty, and respect in whatever manner suits you best.

It's your choice, but the Greek gods find hubris and impiety quite offensive,
then i would think you would be wise to stop presuming to know what is best for others when it comes to worship.

and Athena cares very little for people who aren't willing to show Her the proper respect, which includes addressing Her properly. I know this all too well, for She has been one of my Patrons for over 20 years.
:twitch:

[Theres]

im not quite sure where your fixation on using correct terminology stems from...
literacy? respect? or perhaps just in regard of that convention we use to communicate effectively with each other?

[Phoenix Blue]

im not quite sure where your fixation on using correct terminology stems from, but quite a few people prefer to use their own terminology as it much more accurately reflects their own cosmology or world-view or it just flows off their tongue easier.
So? Just because something's easier doesn't mean it's right. If someone consistently uses netspeak in conversation, do you take them seriously as you do someone who takes the time to cogently form their ideas into proper English?

The best thing you can say about someone who would rather do something easily than properly is that they're lazy. At worst, they're downright dishonest.

then i would think you would be wise to stop presuming to know what is best for others when it comes to worship.
Personally, I think it would be wise not to call a pile of crap a rose garden, but that's just me.

[punxzen]

Because she's offered no reason for people here who do worship Athena to believe that she's talking about the same "Athena" they are. No one has to disprove a claim that she can't prove in the first place.
maybe she just wanted to talk about athena, and/or her path which involves athena. i dont think i understand why her preference for spelling or her perspective on the world/gods (cosmology) should be of any concern to anyone. shes not threatening to take athena's history away, nor is she trying to convert anyone to her way of spelling.

I can find no other reason d'aitre for someone who deliberately attempts to distort both an established religion and an established language in the same thread.
maybe she is deliberately trying to mold the religion and language to suit her, it doesnt somehow imply that you have to do the same. i pay homage to hermes, if i choose to refer to my path as hermesian instead of hermetic, how does that in any way change the language or religion. if i decide that hermes is just an archetype or way of being as opposed to your view of what a god is, how does that distort the language or religion?

[punxzen]

literacy? respect? or perhaps just in regard of that convention we use to communicate effectively with each other?

can you explain how literacy(being able to read and write last i checked) or respect apply to modifying a word to suit yourself better? did it somehow cause you to assume the was referring to something other than athena?

[Phoenix Blue]

Frankly, punxzen, I think you're giving her a bit too much credit.

Uh, [Athenic] is a word because I just invented it. If there can be Dianic Wicca, then I can call my path Athenic Wicca.
It doesn't sound like respecting anyone else's path in the course of creating her own is foremost on her mind. One can attempt to mold religion and language to suit oneself and still do it respectfully.

[punxzen]

So? Just because something's easier doesn't mean it's right. If someone consistently uses netspeak in conversation, do you take them seriously as you do someone who takes the time to cogently form their ideas into proper English?
i take a person's ideas and thoughts as they come, i dont quibble over how they deliver them.

The best thing you can say about someone who would rather do something easily than properly is that they're lazy. At worst, they're downright dishonest.

or perhaps they are being efficient. or perhaps its simply something that makes their world that much more lovely to live in. or perhaps they just plan enjoy it.

Personally, I think it would be wise not to call a pile of crap a rose garden, but that's just me.
one man's trash is another man's treasure. when i see a pile of crap, i see fertilizer, which in turn leads me to see what could benefit from such fertilizer. if you don't approve of her referring to her path differently than you would, then keep it to yourself if you have nothing better to say than that she is somehow in the wrong for forging her own path.

[Phoenix Blue]

one man's trash is another man's treasure. when i see a pile of crap, i see fertilizer, which in turn leads me to see what could benefit from such fertilizer. if you don't approve of her referring to her path differently than you would, then keep it to yourself if you have nothing better to say than that she is somehow in the wrong for forging her own path.
If you don't like my opinion, click the link in my sig and don't ask me for it next time. :)

[IvyWitch]

Well, here's the problem....
Athena is Greek. Diana is Roman. The suffix "ic" is from the Latin language hence "Dianic". "ian" is from the Greek language, hence "Athenian". By calling it "Athenic" you are basically putting Athena into a Roman setting, and while the mythologies may be very similar and comparable they are by no means identical. Personally, I think you do Athena a great disservice by combining the Greek and Roman terminologies.

[punxzen]

Frankly, punxzen, I think you're giving her a bit too much credit.
maybe

It doesn't sound like respecting anyone else's path in the course of creating her own is foremost on her mind. One can attempt to mold religion and language to suit oneself and still do it respectfully.
sometimes, people do or say things that they wouldn't do or say in front of certain people. she may have thought that anyone who read her thoughts here would be able to understand and decipher what she was saying. i tend to give people the benefit of my doubt when it comes to their short-comings, but thats me. i agree that maybe she should have worded her posts a lil more respectfully, but the notion that she cannot create her own terms for her path angers me.

[Phoenix Blue]

Athena is Greek. Diana is Roman. The suffix "ic" is from the Latin language hence "Dianic". "ian" is from the Greek language, hence "Athenian". By calling it "Athenic" you are basically putting Athena into a Roman setting, and while the mythologies may be very similar and comparable they are by no means identical. Personally, I think you do Athena a great disservice by combining the Greek and Roman terminologies.
**Smiles** Well-said, Taiyo!

[punxzen]

If you don't like my opinion, click the link in my sig and don't ask me for it next time. :)

im sorry, i was under the assumption that we are to respect each other's paths, not say that one is right and one is wrong. perhaps i misunderstood that rule.

[Ahautenites]

Well, here's the problem....
Athena is Greek. Diana is Roman. The suffix "ic" is from the Latin language hence "Dianic". "ian" is from the Greek language, hence "Athenian". By calling it "Athenic" you are basically putting Athena into a Roman setting, and while the mythologies may be very similar and comparable they are by no means identical. Personally, I think you do Athena a great disservice by combining the Greek and Roman terminologies.

Here's me being devil's advocate. What about in terms of columns? There's Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian. But they're all called Greek columns.

[punxzen]

Well, here's the problem....
Athena is Greek. Diana is Roman. The suffix "ic" is from the Latin language hence "Dianic". "ian" is from the Greek language, hence "Athenian". By calling it "Athenic" you are basically putting Athena into a Roman setting, and while the mythologies may be very similar and comparable they are by no means identical. Personally, I think you do Athena a great disservice by combining the Greek and Roman terminologies.

aye, thats the kind of input i can respect. but i still disagree about whether a god would really care how you referred to your path :seehearsp

[Phoenix Blue]

i agree that maybe she should have worded her posts a lil more respectfully, but the notion that she cannot create her own terms for her path angers me.
I don't think anyone meant to suggest that. My concern, and that of the Reconstructionists of various traditions who have posted here, is that she's doing herself and Athena a dishonor by making the conscious choice (as evidenced above) not to include more accurate information about the goddess she claims to worship.

I've had the privilege to know both Nallia and WandererInGray (who has not joined the discussion at this point), and I know that both of them honor their Matrons through properly researching the historical and cultural backgrounds that encompass their Matron goddesses. Wanderer has about a half-shelf full of books that contain information on Kali-Ma, for example. The fact that Wanderer follows a path that combines elements of Hindu religion and Buddhist and Bushido philosophies does not detract from her devotion to Kali-Ma precisely because she has chosen to do such in-depth research and study.

Service to a god or a goddess entails placing that deity's wishes ahead of one's own. Foremost among those wishes would be the desire to be properly addressed, respected, and honored. I imagine MorningDove could do all of the above, and the effort involved in doing so could only enrich her personal path, not detract from it.

[IvyWitch]

aye, thats the kind of input i can respect. but i still disagree about whether a god would really care how you referred to your path :seehearsp

Well, I'm sure Hermes wouldn't much like it if the next time I contacted him I spoke in Japanese. It's a matter of language, and the purpose of inventing a word when one already exists. There is no reason I can see to call it "Athenic". There is no reason to make up a word in this situation.

[Phoenix Blue]

im sorry, i was under the assumption that we are to respect each other's paths, not say that one is right and one is wrong. perhaps i misunderstood that rule.
It's a question of accuracy, not validity. Although a sufficient level of inaccuracy, in my opinion, does render one's claim to a specific path invalid. It's a subtle line, but maybe I can explain it better like this: Does someone who doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ have a right to claim they're Christian?

[punxzen]

I don't think anyone meant to suggest that. My concern, and that of the Reconstructionists of various traditions who have posted here, is that she's doing herself and Athena a dishonor by making the conscious choice (as evidenced above) not to include more accurate information about the goddess she claims to worship.

its good of you to be concerned and all, but i still fail to see how 'accurate information' plays a real role in one's spiritual life. thats definitely a big concern in something like politics (for some people), but in a person's chosen path, what is accurate to you, may not apply to them at all.

I've had the privilege to know both Nallia and WandererInGray (who has not joined the discussion at this point), and I know that both of them honor their Matrons through properly researching the historical and cultural backgrounds that encompass their Matron goddesses. Wanderer has about a half-shelf full of books that contain information on Kali-Ma, for example. The fact that Wanderer follows a path that combines elements of Hindu religion and Buddhist and Bushido philosophies does not detract from her devotion to Kali-Ma precisely because she has chosen to do such in-depth research and study.
that's cool :) i do a lot of in-depth study and research as well.

Service to a god or a goddess entails placing that deity's wishes ahead of one's own. Foremost among those wishes would be the desire to be properly addressed, respected, and honored. I imagine MorningDove could do all of the above, and the effort involved in doing so could only enrich her personal path, not detract from it. the problem is, i dont think that she necessarily holds to the same world view or cosmological view as you or i do.

[punxzen]

Well, I'm sure Hermes wouldn't much like it if the next time I contacted him I spoke in Japanese. It's a matter of language, and the purpose of inventing a word when one already exists. There is no reason I can see to call it "Athenic". There is no reason to make up a word in this situation.
aye, but this is precisely what i am saying, it doesn't matter if you can see no reason to make up a word in this situation. if she wants to do it, then that is reason enough. logic does not have to rule over feeling.

about the hermes thing, i dont think he would mind, i actually think that he prefers that kind of eclectic experience.

[punxzen]

It's a question of accuracy, not validity. Although a sufficient level of inaccuracy, in my opinion, does render one's claim to a specific path invalid. It's a subtle line, but maybe I can explain it better like this: Does someone who doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ have a right to claim they're Christian?

i dont believe in 'the divinity of christ' but i definitely have the right to call myself a christian.

[IvyWitch]

i dont believe in 'the divinity of christ' but i definitely have the right to call myself a christian.

Well, maybe you should call yourself "Jesusic" instead.

[Phoenix Blue]

i dont believe in 'the divinity of christ' but i definitely have the right to call myself a christian.
**Wry smile** Just like I have the right to claim that I'm a Republican or that the sky is green. But the act of making a claim does not, in and of itself, make the claim legitimate. All it does is invite the sort of "you've got it all wrong" responses that MorningDove has received.

[punxzen]

**Wry smile** Just like I have the right to claim that I'm a Republican or that the sky is green. But the act of making a claim does not, in and of itself, make the claim legitimate. All it does is invite the sort of "you've got it all wrong" responses that MorningDove has received.

if you see the sky as green, i dont see how that is somehow illegitimate, but it also doesnt really have much to do with how i term my path. just because i dont fit your pre-requisites for what it means to be a christian does not mean that my claim to christianity is illigitimate.

[Phoenix Blue]

just because i dont fit your pre-requisites for what it means to be a christian does not mean that my claim to christianity is illigitimate.
See, that's the thing: it's not my pre-requisite. It's part of Christian doctrine. Does your claim to being a Christian actually mean anything if you don't hold to the doctrine actually written and held to by members of that religion? I suppose it's the difference between saying you're Christian and saying, "I don't believe Christ was divine, but I still believe I have a personal relationship with Him." One of those statements is more accurate, and therefore more truthful, than the other, given the hypothetical situation.

[punxzen]

See, that's the thing: it's not my pre-requisite. It's part of Christian doctrine. Does your claim to being a Christian actually mean anything if you don't hold to the doctrine actually written and held to by members of that religion? I suppose it's the difference between saying you're Christian and saying, "I don't believe Christ was divine, but I still believe I have a personal relationship with Him." One of those statements is more accurate, and therefore more truthful, than the other, given the hypothetical situation.

i dont know any christians who recognize the same doctrine, much less any that actually follow the same doctrine. i dont have to follow a doctrine someone else proclaims as christian in order for my path to be a christian one.

[Phoenix Blue]

i dont have to follow a doctrine someone else proclaims as christian in order for my path to be a christian one.
:wtf: Umm, if you say so.

[MorningDove030202]

The difference is one of making up somthing original versus distorting a concept of a Goddess who already exists. If you want to call the voice in your head Athena, that's fine; but don't try to equate that with the historical Athena unless you're willing to do a little bit of homework and find out what She's actually about.


I think you're just trolling at this point.

I have a minor in history from Salisbury State University where I took classes on World Mythology, Clasical Mythology and Ancient Greek Civilization. I feel that I do know what She is actualy about. How dare you asume that I don't. Just because you don't like how I spell my name for my path, and that to you "Athenic" sound uneducated (which is what you were implying) doesn't mean that I am uneducated.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

And two more comments....


1) If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

2)Athena never had a problem with me calling my path Athenic Wicca.

Dove

[IvyWitch]

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Well, if people never disagreed we'd run out of things to talk about very quickly.

And I still don't think the question "Why do you need to invent a word where one exists already" has been answered, and "because I can" isn't much of an answer.

[Phoenix Blue]

I have a minor in history from Salisbury State University where I took classes on World Mythology, Clasical Mythology and Ancient Greek Civilization. I feel that I do know what She is actualy about. How dare you asume that I don't. Just because you don't like how I spell my name for my path, and that to you "Athenic" sound uneducated (which is what you were implying) doesn't mean that I am uneducated.
Very well, but that doesn't change my assumption about your arrogance.

The irony in all this is that someone tried to correct you about your spelling and your use of the "-ic" suffix versus the "-ian" suffix. If you hadn't gone off half-cocked and said "Well, I can do that because I want to," it's a fair bet the accuracy of other parts of your path would never have come into question.

[MorningDove030202]

Well, if people never disagreed we'd run out of things to talk about very quickly.

And I still don't think the question "Why do you need to invent a word where one exists already" has been answered, and "because I can" isn't much of an answer.


I never thought of using "Athenian" because I was kinda leaning towards Athena because I was somewhat countering the anti-God/anti-men aspects of Dianic... so I wanted to use the -ic ending to provide an egalitarian alturnative. Athenian to me is someone from Athens. The "-ic" ending, since it had been used before to label a pagan tradition resonated more with me. Those are my personal reasons, if you must know them.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

Very well, but that doesn't change my assumption about your arrogance.

The irony in all this is that someone tried to correct you about your spelling and your use of the "-ic" suffix versus the "-ian" suffix. If you hadn't gone off half-cocked and said "Well, I can do that because I want to," it's a fair bet the accuracy of other parts of your path would never have come into question.

Well, if shareing my path makes me arogant, then guilty as charged. I realy don't want my spelling corrected, thanks!

Dove

[Phoenix Blue]

Well, if shareing my path makes me arogant, then guilty as charged. I realy don't want my spelling corrected, thanks!
No, actually. . . what makes me classify your behavior as arrogant are statements such as, "If you must know them," "It's a word because I just invented it," and "How dare you [fill in the blank]." What that says to me that no one is entitled to question you, because obviously your opinion means more than anyone else's. And yes, that's arrogant.

If you don't want your spelling corrected, get it right the first time. That shouldn't be too difficult for someone who's smart enough to graduate from a four-year school in the first place.

[IvyWitch]

I never thought of using "Athenian" because I was kinda leaning towards Athena because I was somewhat countering the anti-God/anti-men aspects of Dianic... so I wanted to use the -ic ending to provide an egalitarian alturnative. Athenian to me is someone from Athens. The "-ic" ending, since it had been used before to label a pagan tradition resonated more with me. Those are my personal reasons, if you must know them.

Dove

Ok, so now my question is how does changing it from Athenian to Athenic have anything to do with equal rights? And if Dianic Wiccans use the "ic" ending, then how does applying that same suffix to Athena make it egalitarian? Andijust because another Pagan tradition uses it doesnt mean it's appropriate for every tradition.

[IvyWitch]

Well, if shareing my path makes me arogant, then guilty as charged. I realy don't want my spelling corrected, thanks!

Dove

It;s not a matter of spelling. It's a matterof historical accuracy and respect.

[MorningDove030202]

No, actually. . . what makes me classify your behavior as arrogant are statements such as, "If you must know them," "It's a word because I just invented it," and "How dare you [fill in the blank]." What that says to me that no one is entitled to question you, because obviously your opinion means more than anyone else's. And yes, that's arrogant.

If you don't want your spelling corrected, get it right the first time. That shouldn't be too difficult for someone who's smart enough to graduate from a four-year school in the first place.


I have a learning disability and spelling is a skill that I admit I lack.

I Morning Dove suck at spelling. I bow down to and defer all questions of spelling to the Gramer Enforcers. :fpraise:

Now that that's over, can we disuss something else? Like how about my Prayer? No one has commented on it yet? Has anyone else written any prayers to Athena? I would love to hear what others have been inspired to write.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

It;s not a matter of spelling. It's a matterof historical accuracy and respect.

Which as I have said before the Athena I speak with doesn't have a problem with it, so please now LEAVE ME ALONE about the spelling.

Dove

[Phoenix Blue]

I have a learning disability and spelling is a skill that I admit I lack.
Hey, no big deal. :) We all have our own sets of deficiencies and strengths. However, wouldn't admitting that in the first place have saved a lot of trouble, rather than hijacking the thread into a debate about "Athenic" vs. Athenian and the validity of the path you walk?

The poem seems to parallel the Lord's Prayer, which I suppose would make it a good daily prayer. Of course, I'm no expert on Athena or Hellenic tradition in general, so you should probably take my 2¢ with a grain of salt. :p

[MorningDove030202]

Ok, so now my question is how does changing it from Athenian to Athenic have anything to do with equal rights? And if Dianic Wiccans use the "ic" ending, then how does applying that same suffix to Athena make it egalitarian? Andijust because another Pagan tradition uses it doesnt mean it's appropriate for every tradition.

No no no, using '"-ic" makes it sound more like a pagan tradition than a person from the city of Athens.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

Hey, no big deal. :) We all have our own sets of deficiencies and strengths. However, wouldn't admitting that in the first place have saved a lot of trouble, rather than hijacking the thread into a debate about "Athenic" vs. Athenian and the validity of the path you walk?

The poem seems to parallel the Lord's Prayer, which I suppose would make it a good daily prayer. Of course, I'm no expert on Athena or Hellenic tradition in general, so you should probably take my 2¢ with a grain of salt. :p

Well because I wasn't spelling anything wrong. Athenic is what I have chosen to call my path. I can spell the name of my path however I want. It's my path... If others are using the word Athenic before me, then I have no prior knowledge of it's useage.

Dove

[IvyWitch]

No no no, using '"-ic" makes it sound more like a pagan tradition than a person from the city of Athens.

Dove

Ok, then you're obviously using the word "egalitarian" wrong....

so I wanted to use the -ic ending to provide an egalitarian alturnative.

And, you can callit whatever you want to, but it doesnt mean that it's neccesarily correct. *shrug*

[Phoenix Blue]

No no no, using '"-ic" makes it sound more like a pagan tradition than a person from the city of Athens.
I don't think so, really. Does that make people who practice Wicca, "Wiccics"?

Well because I wasn't spelling anything wrong. Athenic is what I have chosen to call my path. I can spell the name of my path however I want. It's my path...
Well, don't be surprised when someone offers to correct you on the spelling. . . because the term "Athenic," outside your personal path (and a Lexington-based software developer (http://www.athenic.com/) that sells "RFID-enabled web services"), carries no meaning.

[Ahautenites]

That's not entirely true.....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=athenic+wicca

**edited to add** There are a couple links on there that mention Athenic and Hellenic in the same general vicinity.

[Phoenix Blue]

That's not entirely true.....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=athenic+wicca

**edited to add** There are a couple links on there that mention Athenic and Hellenic in the same general vicinity.
Actually, it is entirely true. :) Check the context of the search results. None of them refer to a distinct tradition which can be called "Athenic," and all of them are very likely mis-uses of the "-ic" suffix similar to what we've seen here.

[Ahautenites]

Touché.

[MorningDove030202]

I don't think so, really. Does that make people who practice Wicca, "Wiccics"?


Well, don't be surprised when someone offers to correct you on the spelling. . . because the term "Athenic," outside your personal path (and a Lexington-based software developer (http://www.athenic.com/) that sells "RFID-enabled web services"), carries no meaning.

Well naturaly it doesn't mean anything to people yet, that's why I'm telling people about it. Eventualy may be I'll write a book about Athenic Wicca..... who cares who else uses Athenic? A word can have more than one useage...

BTW, Gardnerian wasn't a word before Gardner either....

Dove

[Phoenix Blue]

BTW, Gardnerian wasn't a word before Gardner either....
True, though you'll note, he didn't use "Gardneric."

[MorningDove030202]

So, is there anyone here who has any thing postive to say about the worship of Athena? And experiences anyone would like to share, or rituals? Here is a link to a picture of my Altar to Athena:

My photo page (http://www.morningdove.faithweb.com/photo.html)

Dove

[IvyWitch]

BTW, Gardnerian wasn't a word before Gardner either....

Yes, but there was no such thing so there was no word for it therefore Gardener had reason to invent it. There already is a word for people who worship Athena (Athenian) therefore there is no reason to invent another word for it.

[MorningDove030202]

Yes, but there was no such thing so there was no word for it therefore Gardener had reason to invent it. There already is a word for people who worship Athena (Athenian) therefore there is no reason to invent another word for it.

Realy? Is there a physical group with non profit status that focuses on Athena?

There can be more than one way to worship Athena, and thus more than word for a path involving Her.

Dove

[IvyWitch]

Realy? Is there a physical group with non profit status that focuses on Athena?

No, but as it was pointed out by a Hellenic Pagan on the forum earlier in the thread Athenian means "Of Athena" rather than "of Athens" and it extends to the worship of Athena.

[MorningDove030202]

No, but as it was pointed out by a Hellenic Pagan on the forum earlier in the thread Athenian means "Of Athena" rather than "of Athens" and it extends to the worship of Athena.

Ok, well I'm sticking with Athenic. Thanks for the info. Next topic please.
Dove

[IvyWitch]

Ok, well not to sound presumptuous, but the two Hellenic Pagans I know of on the forum were not really too interested in discussing worship of Athena in this topic because of the use of the word, which would probably explain why this has been the only discussion in this thread. *shrug*

[MorningDove030202]

Ok, well not to sound presumptuous, but the two Hellenic Pagans I know of on the forum were not really too interested in discussing worship of Athena in this topic because of the use of the word, which would probably explain why this has been the only discussion in this thread. *shrug*

Well that's just fine, they are welcome to ignore/avoid anyone they want to.... so then why are you still here?

Dove

[IvyWitch]

Well that's just fine, they are welcome to ignore/avoid anyone they want to.... so then why are you still here?

Dove

Becuase this is a forum and I can participate in any discussion I want to, whether or not you like my opinion..?

[Kadynas]

Realy? Is there a physical group with non profit status that focuses on Athena?

There can be more than one way to worship Athena, and thus more than word for a path involving Her.

Dove
Actually I think there /is/... :) I'll look for the link for tomorrow night, cuz I have to go to work soon... :)

The term is Artemisian, and it is used frequently for various Traditions.

Like I said earlier--call whatever it is you practice whatever you want. It's your choice. The fact that you're not a Reconstructionist, however, does not absolve you of responsibility to the gods you choose to worship (there is Hellenic Wicca, and it has nothing to do with being a Recon).

The way I see it, there are two choices. Either learn about your gods and respect Them as is Their due, or practice your faith without integrity, honesty, or respect. It's your choice, but the Greek gods find hubris and impiety quite offensive, and Athena cares very little for people who aren't willing to show Her the proper respect, which includes addressing Her properly. I know this all too well, for She has been one of my Patrons for over 20 years, and have been studying to be clergy for a year and a half. So ask yourself--what's more important to you? Your gods or your ego?

Nallia is right in quite a few respects. :) Now don't go and kill me... I'm a Hellenic Wiccan, and Athene is my Patron as well. But I try to find out as much as I can about how my goddess was /actually/ worshipped and incorporate that into my practice, as much as is possible in our modern world. :) To do any less would be showing a lack of respect to her. But that's just my opinion. :) I'm not a reconstructionist, but the way I see it, the Greek religions are one of the few that have any abundance of information, and it would be foolish to ignore that.

[punxzen]

i agree with kadynas here, i think that there is truly an amazing amount of primary sources to research when it comes to the hellenic world. the hermetics (there's that 'ic' taiyo, hermes is greek..) tend to be the most interesting to me since they are all about eclecticism and synergistically integrating the more exotic religions the greeks came into contact with. i originally came to this thread in hopes of learning some good stuff about athena, but we seem to have gotten a little sidetracked regarding the rather hermetic issue of semantics. im sorry for carrying on for so long about that issue, but its something that i feel strongly about, as do the recons apparently.

here's hoping for good discussion,
peace

[IvyWitch]

i agree with kadynas here, i think that there is truly an amazing amount of primary sources to research when it comes to the hellenic world. the hermetics (there's that 'ic' taiyo, hermes is greek..) tend to be the most interesting to me since they are all about eclecticism and synergistically integrating the more exotic religions the greeks came into contact with. i originally came to this thread in hopes of learning some good stuff about athena, but we seem to have gotten a little sidetracked regarding the rather hermetic issue of semantics. im sorry for carrying on for so long about that issue, but its something that i feel strongly about, as do the recons apparently.

here's hoping for good discussion,
peace

I disagree, there is more to it than semantics.

[Pure Ahimsa]

"Athenic" isn't a word. The proper term would be "Athenian" or "Hellenic."

Where do you think words came from? People made them up. :chatty:

[Pure Ahimsa]

Greetings,

I like to call myself a Athenic Wiccan because Athena is my patron diety and I do focus on the Greek Gods in general, but I'm not realy a reconstructionist. So, I thought if there could be a Dianic Wicca, why not Athenic? I have been attracted to both for a long time and finaly settled on Athena because she is more egalitarian, and also in her myth she adopted a child from Gaia, so she also has mothering qualities. I've written a special prayer to Athena a few months back.......

My Third Day Prayer to Athena

Oh, wise Athena with your spear and shield,

protect me and my family from injustice and harm.

Council me with your wisdom so that I may make the best decisions.

Grant me success in my endevors,

but keep me humble so that I might not become condescending to others.

I thank you for the many times you have guided me on my Path.

Share with me your mysteries and I will do my best to follow.

Athena, my Goddess, I pray this in your sacred name,

and I vow to always be your faithful dedicant.

-Dove origninal 4/3/0

Edit: I call my path Athenic Wicca and Athena is my Patron, but that does not mean that all others who follow Athena must call themselves "Athenic". They may title their path in their own way, as they see fit.


Lovely prayer. I love Athena. :heartthro
_twohorns_

[Aidron]

Hmm. I never saw this thread before now. Interesting... yet I don't know whether to laugh and smile or literally throw up.

[Loopaleigh]

So, is there anyone here who has any thing postive to say about the worship of Athena? And experiences anyone would like to share, or rituals? Here is a link to a picture of my Altar to Athena:

My photo page (http://www.morningdove.faithweb.com/photo.html)

Dove

You're altar is very nice (so is the prayer, BTW).....is the picture in the little cabinet an embroidery, or just a print?

I wrote a poem about Athena many, many, years ago.... not sure where it's at, but if I dig it up, I'll post it for you!

Meanwhile, here's some Homer in my signature.......

[MorningDove030202]

Hey, thanks for the complement. I wish the image was an embroidery or even a cross stictch as Athena is a Goddess of Crafts as well as Wisdom, but no, it's not even a print. It's a picture of her I found online in a kids coloring book that I colored in with colored pencils. I've been searching for the right statue to put in there but most are too big.

I would love to hear your poem, if you can find it.

Dove


You're altar is very nice (so is the prayer, BTW).....is the picture in the little cabinet an embroidery, or just a print?

I wrote a poem about Athena many, many, years ago.... not sure where it's at, but if I dig it up, I'll post it for you!

Meanwhile, here's some Homer in my signature.......

[MorningDove030202]

Me too thanks! I'm also working on a chant to Athena as few Wiccan chants mention her..... I'm going to have a friend who can read music help me get it written down, but for now it's just in my head.
Dove

Lovely prayer. I love Athena. :heartthro
_twohorns_

[Kaylara]

Realy? Is there a physical group with non profit status that focuses on Athena?

There can be more than one way to worship Athena, and thus more than word for a path involving Her.

Dove
Actually, the Wicca that you're talking about isn't really covered by that, is it? I mean, the Wicca that was incorporated was Traditional Wicca, and what you're practicing is obviously ecclectic, which means that your mores and practices are vastly different and thus would almost be a different religion all together... But whatever. Not to nit pick here, but I mean, there's are already people who worship Athena, and follow the requirements she set down for her culture in order to worship her. If you do an internet search even, you'll find a ton of them.

I really do think it's highly disrespectful to her to not worship her in the way she requires. (But she'll choose her own.) However, as far as the Wiccan part goes... Wicca does not mean, do whatever the hell you want. Wicca has set practices and holidays with room for personal expansion upon an established framework. And Wicca does allow room for you to worship a deity in the way that their culture dictates.

[Kaylara]

Me too thanks! I'm also working on a chant to Athena as few Wiccan chants mention her..... I'm going to have a friend who can read music help me get it written down, but for now it's just in my head.
Dove
That's because she's not normally called upon in Wicca, what with it being a mostly Celtic tradition.

[Kendrah]

Hmm. I never saw this thread before now. Interesting... yet I don't know whether to laugh and smile or literally throw up.

It's like a train wreck. o_o I can't stop reading.

[Aidron]

It's like a train wreck. o_o I can't stop reading.


That's amusing. I told Kay the same thing earlier. :lol:

[Kaylara]

LMFAO He did too!

[MoonDragn]

Hmm. I never saw this thread before now. Interesting... yet I don't know whether to laugh and smile or literally throw up.

Always the one with the snide remarks. If you don't like it, then don't read it or post in it. Some of us did find the discussions interesting. A person can make mistakes or chose to do things his/her way. It is still their belief, not yours.

[Aidron]

Always the one with the snide remarks. If you don't like it, then don't read it or post in it. Some of us did find the discussions interesting. A person can make mistakes or chose to do things his/her way. It is still their belief, not yours.


It's not a snide remark. It's an honest response. I said the thread was interesting and that I was not sure what my true reaction was. Get off your high horse and stop attempting to hound me in every form possible upon the boards. The only snide remark here is yours-and they certainly don't make you come off in the best light. :rolleyes:

[MoonDragn]

High horse? You're the one who constantly post with a nose pointed up. I've never seen anyone more arrogant or more pompous. Look at the way you respond to posts. Its always with an air that you know more than other people. Well you don't. I never profess to know more either, but I never brag about it.

Hounding you? I am defending the belief of someone. Perhaps you should get over yourself and maybe go post somewhere where people can stomach your arrogance.

[Kaylara]

Always the one with the snide remarks. If you don't like it, then don't read it or post in it. Some of us did find the discussions interesting. A person can make mistakes or chose to do things his/her way. It is still their belief, not yours. Stalking people around the board and sending harassing pm's and karma pokes is not allowed. I highly suggest that you stop doing so right now.


Also, to both of you, hijacking a thread to bitch at each other is not allowed. Put each other on ignore and be done with it.

*End Admin Mode*

[malice]

you can call it whatever you want....but its still a sin. just kidding!!!!!!!!! i couldnt resist cuz my grandma said something similar to me once. we were arguing cuz she can never say Wicca which is my religion, she always gets it wrong. according to her ive been a Satanist, a Buddhist, an Atheist, and one time she just made up a word and called me Ghandi- istian or somehting like that.
but anyway, you can call your path of paganism whatever you want, man. isnt that an important value to Pagans? the right to choose what you like the best?

[Pandoras]

Dove,

I think your prayer and altar are very nice and that "Athenic" is a fine way to describe your personal spiritual path. In my research, I've found that Athenian means "of or pertaining to Athens" (but since the city is theoretically named after Her, it can be said that Athenian means pertaining to Athena). I've also found that the suffix -ic means "of, relating to, or characterized by" and that it comes from the Latin -icus and, previously, from the Greek -ikos.

[MorningDove030202]

Wicca doesn't have to be Celtic....it's grown beyond the mythos of the country it was founded in. Granted there are some Celtic things in Wicca that I wouldn't want to chainge, but to me they are just Wiccan, with Celtic roots which may or may not be meaningful to everyone.

So what about Pan, and Artimis? They are also quite popular in Wicca....

Dove

That's because she's not normally called upon in Wicca, what with it being a mostly Celtic tradition.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Wicca doesn't have to be Celtic....it's grown beyond the mythos of the country it was founded in. Granted there are some Celtic things in Wicca that I wouldn't want to chainge, but to me they are just Wiccan, with Celtic roots which may or may not be meaningful to everyone.

So what about Pan, and Artimis? They are also quite popular in Wicca....

DoveI completely agree. The fact that Gardner worked in England and incorporated folk practices there lends a Celtic (but also an Anglo-Saxon) tone to it. However, he was also much influenced by ceremonial magic of the time, which was heavy with Christian, Egyptian, and Hermetic symbology.

It didn't just start out Celtic and grow beyond it, it actually started out beyond just Celtic symbology. If you ask a Celtic recon, they might tell you the same thing. It's never fit nicely in any cultural box. ^_^ I think it is more structured than a lot of people realize, but there is a bit of play with how people practice. You've got Egyptian types of Wicca and Roman types of Wicca and Hellenic types of Wicca. So far I haven't seen them being struck down. (edited to add: I originally meant by their Gods, but you can take it as by MW members, too. ^_^ )

Personally, I think if Athena were offended by your use of 'Athenic', then She wouldn't answer. Or She'd at least tell you that She's offended. Athena doesn't seem the type to just take offensive behaviour sitting down. If others are offended by your usage, then that is their own problem.

I like your altar. It has a nice feel to it.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[ObsessedFae86]

To be quite honest, I've never heard the term "Athenian" or "Athenic"..but I like them both..and your prayer is very nice as well :)

[KissMeImIrish!]

Regarding the course of this whole post I just wanted to say that I was disappointed and turned off by the amount of negative posts and anger directed at each other over the use of "Athenic" versus "Athenian". Dove came here to discuss a path she was working with and miraculously pages and pages of discussion rife with insults and hostility pop up. Yeah maybe she could have handled her answer better rather than say she made it up so deal with it, but that still doesn't give anyone the right to tell her that she is insulting her gods, uneducated, etc. It just seems like lately every time you scroll a post there is somebody insulting somebody else and it's all getting a bit tiring. Are we, as pagans, so narrow minded and egocentric that we have to shoot down anyone else who decides to do something different than us?? Isn't that why we came to paganism in the first place, because it was a place were we could be different and feel safe about it?
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, it's just a general comment on the way the boards are almost seething with negativity these days. It's saddening that within paganism we are so ready to attack each other over our differences, whether they be religious or in this case, grammatical differences.
:rant: I hope we can all get along better and support each other rather than knocking each other down.
Dove, the altar is beautiful and so is the prayer. Athenic is rather nice too :)

[MorningDove030202]

Well, alot has happened since I posted this topic. I'm probably joining a new coven in Febuary that is part of the Assembly of the Sacred Wheel. I'm so thrilled to finaly be in a place in my life were I have the support from my family to be active in a coven. Also, my best friend who had her first degree initation into the ASW is drawling me up a picture of Athena based on some Greek pottery pictures that I like. For some reason I like Greek pottery art better than the marble statues of Her...... Anyway this picture is to become my first tattoo sometime next year. When she is done with the art I'll post it! I've been working on my witchschool studdies, and going to the ASW, and I haven't had much personal one one ritual time devoted to Athena, and I think I need to do so. I know that what I'm working on is something She wants me to do, but She still need that personal connection, or perhapse it's just me? But either way, Athena will be "coming to the coven" with me. I'm wondering how that will blend with the HP and HPS. I don't know who their Patrons are.....

Dove

[aprilenchanted]

I found this thread while doing a search on the definition of the word Athenic...as in the famous quote by Thomas Moore, which reads:
Marriage is an Athenic weaving together of families, of two souls with their individual fates and destinies, of time and eternity - everyday life married to the timeless mysteries of the soul.

So, indeed it is a real word even if Webster's doesn't recognize it and had already been invented approximately 175 years before your birth...roughly.

I would love to pick his brain to know exactly what HE meant by that word in that passage. Though, Athena being who she is one could certainly infer its' meaning. I take it to mean regarding the Goddess Athena who was the constant ally of the God Zeus, his fierce protector, promoting his interests, serving as his advisor...the way a wife would take care of her man...in every man's fantasy. Of course, that quote was written about 170 years ago and times were a little different then. However, I believe that was the intent of Thomas Moore when he put pen to paper on that subject and I do believe it a beautiful sentiment...even if not entirely practical in our modern time. There does not seem to be any official definition of the word Athenic anywhere I have looked.

In regard to this thread, I think that the use of the word Athenic is entirely appropriate. Athenic Wicca, Athenic Paganism, whatever. It's a good word and get's to the point. I imagine myself proclaiming 'I am an Athenian Wiccan'. It almost sounds pompous in my ear. But, that's just me. ;-)