How can anyone take this stuff seriously?

[Djiril]

The site this was on said this was "widly distributed, and widely believed", but it seems so silly! How can anyone have actually thought this was real?


THE SEVEN W.I.C.C.A. LETTERS: The Witches International Coven Council Associate, a coalition of witches formed to try to establish unity and coordination between diverse groups of witches and to reconcile White, Gray, and Black Witchcraft movements, established a comprehensive list of goals in their 1981 W.I.C.C.A. Convention in Mexico. Dep. Dave Gaerin, San Diego S.O. originall developed the information which was then used as the basis for an article in the PASSPORT MAGAZINE SPECIAL EDITION, herein quoted: "...They clearly and boldly outline the seriousness of their intentions.

* To bring about the covens, both black and white magic, into one and have the arctress to govern all--ACCOMPLISHED;
* To bring about personal debts causing discord and disharmony within families--ACCOMPLISHED;
* To remove or educate "new age youth" by:
* infiltrating boys'/girls' clubs and big sister/brother programs
* infiltrating schools, having prayers removed, having teachers teach about drugs, sex, freedoms
* instigating and promoting rebellion against parents and all authority
* promoting equal rights for youth--ACCOMPLISHED;

* To gain access to all people's backgrounds and vital information by:
* use of computers
* convenience
* infiltration--ACCOMPLISHED;

* To have laws changed to benefit our ways, such as:
* removing children from home environment and placing them in our foster homes
* mandatory placement of childrenn in our daycare centers
* increased taxes
* open drug and pornography market to everyone-- NOT YET ACCOMPLISHED;

* To destroy government agencies by:
* overspending
* public opinion
* being on the offensive always, opposing, demonstrating, demoralizing-- NOT YET ACCOMPLISHED;

* (The seventh letter was not revealed until the Summer Solstice, June 21, 1986. Dep. Gaerin has been able to determine part of this letter, namely, that covens are sanctioned to abduct and sacrifice human adults or children on the 24th. of each month for the next eleven years, at which time they expect to be in complete control. This amounts to new and unifying emphasis on blood- letting rituals.)

Peter Michas, a Christian pastor and expert in the area of Satanism and heavy metal music, says that goals five and six have since been accomplished, at least to a satisfactory degree, and that goal seven has been "announced" to the public on the album covers of popular Satanic heavy metal bands such as Ozzy Osborne. By placing together bits of information from different album covers, Michas says that the seventh goal is to be a tremendous increase of blatant Satanic activity over the next thirteen years, culminating in the physical reign of Satan on earth on June 21, 1999..."


Now this is in no way unique. There are articles like this all over the web which people appearently take seriously, but how can anyone actually be so stupid to accept something like this without question? Are there really so many stupid people in the world, or have people simply had life experiences that make them believe that this makes any sense? :huh:

[Wascally Wabbit]

This looks like Anti-Semetic bullshit. Someone went to some trouble with the details. I think that ignorant, naive people seem to like to believe that an organized, clever group of people are underhandedly sabotaging their financial and personal lives. This is easier than taking responsibility for themselves and grappling with the complex details of modern life.

[Partly Cloudy]

I have noooo idea. That is one weird article though :)

[Witchzee1]

Are there really so many stupid people in the world, or have people simply had life experiences that make them believe that this makes any sense? :huh:
There are a lot of stupid well lets say, uneducated people in the world, who have closed minds and articles like this to "educate" them. What can you expect?

Are you familiar with the Wizards First Rule? (Great book by the way) The Wizards First Rule says that it is human nature to believe the worst about someone whether it is true or not. If you tell someone that somebody else said something good about them they will question it. But if you tell someone that someone said something bad about them, they will believe it without question even if they are told that this information came from a close friend. ::sigh:: Why is that? (There's more to the Wizards First Rule than that but that's a part of it.) At any rate, for whatever reason, people will believe a negative over a positive almost always. Kind of explains a lot about human nature, doesn't it?

Anyway, I guess the best way to teach is by example. Walk the talk. There are way to many who prefer to talk their walk instead.

Just my opinion.

Blessed Be!

[Tullip Troll]

People wanna believe what they wanna believe. When your life is dedicated to fighting evil and bringing people to the one true GOd you get excited about articles like that. It means your winning.

MheraPai...unlimited

[luna rising]

What, you guys aren't trying to cause the complete and utter collapse of modern society? I'm the only one? :nonono: Kidding. The people that create and/or believe nonsense like that make me nauseated.

[nomadicdragon]

Is that the entire article that you posted? probably broke the copyright rule but anyway.

Silly people are going to write silly things. If people choose to believe them that is their perogative, I'm sure they wonder why we believe what we believe. *shrugs* I don't let it worry me, it's not affecting me or my life.

[equinox2]

Djiril wrote:

Now this is in no way unique. There are articles like this all over the web which people appearently take seriously, but how can anyone actually be so stupid to accept something like this without question?

Unfortunately, millions of Americans do believe stuff like this, hook line and sinker – and they vote and elect presidents. I wouldn’t exactly call it stupidity – these people are often intelligent. I think that instead it results from never being taught the critical thinking methods needed to critically examine your own long held beliefs. One component of this is an exclusion of other ideas and a closing off as a separate society. When I was Christian, we were encouraged to listen to Christian radio, shun “ungodly” books, etc. A sanitized Christian substitute was supplied for most things – family life radio instead of NPR, veggietales instead of sesame street, left behind instead of harry potter, etc. Another component was the idea that accepting faith was much more important than annoying evidence or doubt. These all contributed to a strange filter on the world, where these things were credible. Much of this is backed up by a literal reading of the Bible (which in all honesty does appear to support a lot of this). I’ve described it on this website, but please remember that this doesn’t apply to all Christians, and that if you are sensitive about things like this, don’t go to the website.

http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjchap7.htm

Things like the letter Djiril posted are very common, even if they are “clearly” made up. Things as silly as that often circulate unhindered in Christian circles as “fact” (and we aren't talking about a "small minority" here either, sociological data has consitently shown that we are talking about tens of millions of Americans - and growing). There have been tons of examples over the decades – they are noting new. Some of the past ones include the silly story about Darwin’s deathbed conversion to Christianity (or Voltaire’s, or Thomas Paine’s or……). Or George Washington’s vision of Armageddon, or the Shroud of Turin, or the human tracks next to dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy river bottom. New ones come up all the time, and it’s obvious that new ones will come up next year, and the year after that…..

Nomadicdragon wrote:

*shrugs* I don't let it worry me, it's not affecting me or my life.

I feel that the rising tide of fundamentalism in the US is a serious concern, not only for us but for everyone worldwide. We Pagans tend to ignore it under the guise of tolerance – though to me if often appears to be laziness. These kinds of stories are a direct and expected result when: 1. People lose the ability to think for themselves (objectivity). 2. People lose their ability to direct their own lives (agency). They often lead to 3. People lose their ability to individually judge what is right and wrong (morality).

To ignore this and say “it’s not affecting me” is ignoring the effect it has and will have on the world our children will live in. It is ignoring the real harm done to millions of people, especially women, both here in the US and abroad. It is thinking only of oneself and turning our backs on other people (inlcuding people not alive yet) and on our earth itself.

Though at first it appears to be “being nice”, and is a natural first response of kind people, in the end it turns out to be selfish. The ostrich buries it’s head in the sand at the first sign of trouble. Let’s not take the ostrich approach here – our children deserve better.
Love and light--

[nomadicdragon]

I don't see it as an alarming trend. It's been these way for centuries, and has been worse and other times. If you believe I'm sticking my head in the sand that's fine. But I prefer to live my life as I see fit, believe what I believe, I don't need to protest and fight against others beliefs. *shrugs* maybe it's laziness... but, coming from a fundamentalist missionary family background, I choose to not give them more power than they already have.

[Xander67]

I think the terms "Widely Distributed" and "widely believed" are a misrepresentation ... I do not share in the views of this article and I am sure I can find others who would disagree as well...

gotta be carefull when reading sites like these, anyone can say what they want and claim it as truth .. always consider the source.......

[Sleet]

It's easier to believe wild and whacky stuff if it seems to validate previously held suspicions.

[Erebus]

The site this was on said this was "widly distributed, and widely believed", but it seems so silly! How can anyone have actually thought this was real?

You're asking this question to a group of people who, for the most part, believe everything anyone ever tells them regardless of how outrageous, implausible, or flimsy it may be?(for instance, crap like "18 billion witches really were burned in the 1500s, and I know because the trees tell me"... oh, and don't forget the monthly "Is Landover Baptist real???" thread)

My point being, I have absolutely no problem believing that a large number of folks, particilarly pagans, were totally snookered by this e-mail. Just based on the behavior I've seen when it comes to blindly accepting completely outrageous claims on the boards alone.

[zakzekezedd]

Well, personally I take nearly everything I read anywhere with an exceedingly huge grain of salt. There have been and are regrettably individuals, and groups with the agenda of spreading misinformation to discredit someone or another group of individuals. It's just like high school gossip. How many girls get labelled as "sluts" because some little (bad word) and her clique decid to spread gossip and misinformation about them? And how many times do teachers and principals and parents get suckered into believing the gossip???? The fact that someone can put something totally ridiculous and false out over the internet now and reach thousands of people instead of the 200 or so in a high school...well. But it causes problems two ways--one is by fueling the fire for people who really do want to believe that nonsense, and the other is it gets the people in the group the false information is about upset and distracted because well, "How could anyone say or believe this about me?" IMHO there is one thing that seems to be a constant, and that is that there are always people who love to "gossip", spread misinformation, and stir up trouble. The best thing I can do is not buy into their whole malevolent little game.

[Laurelei]

Am I the only person here who finds that article HILARIOUS!? :falloffch

Besides, Satan is five years late and according to most Americans, there's been more than enough Satanic activity in the past 20 years. What went wrong? :P

[Mab]

IMO--ppl who believe this crap are desparately seeking a scape-goat to keep from having to take responsibility for their own actions. Notice how all the evil & rebellion of children is blamed on the WICCA movement? No......it couldn't be that kids have been rebellious since the dawn of time, or that their parents are morons....no, that couldn't be it......personal debt couldn't be the fault of the shopaholic in the family....no way....it must be those darned WICCAns....drug abuse can't be that a person is trying to escape the reality of his/her situation...no....it must be the WICCAns.....

yeah, God FORBID we take responsibility for ourselves!!!:bad:

Yes, silly silly ppl who would believe that whole WICCA manifesto thing....though I could totally believe some narrow-minded idiot could come up with it & e-mail it around....just like it went around that KISS (the band) stood for Knights In Satan's Service (seriously, my mom totally bought into that).

[Pol]

Well, that's absurd. It's sad that a lot of people believe this stuff. We had books about it when I was little and my mom was into all of that "toys are satanic" stuff. It seriously is believed by a large number of people in the US. Maybe not that particular set of letters, but similiar ideas and rumours.

Erebus: There's a difference in making something up, and people being spiritual and following their spirit. Pretty judgemental to say that someones religion is 'flimsy.'
Maybe they're mislead, mistaken, or misinformed, but to pick on someone for talking to trees..well, that sounds like religion bashing to me.

I'd dare say that 'for the most part' people here do not believe every thing everyone tells them. 'For the most part,' they're more likely going to accept that the experience was real for that person, or that it could be possible but requires more delving into the subject and more investigating.

[Erebus]

Could someone PLEASE explain to me exactly what makes this e-mail less believable than these threads?

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=59866

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=58739

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=58876

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=48909 (Post #3 and beyond)

Because I really, REALLY want to know where the line between "benefit of the doubt/legitimate" and "totally ludicrious" is.

I'm starting to think I'm the insane one here. I lump all of the above into the same mental category that this thread ends up in, yet the consensus seems to be that all of the above are perfectly reasonable and believable while this one is just silly. What's the sign that I'm missing?

[Ron]

this is the definition of bollocks in the absolute... go to www.dictionary.com if you dunno what that is. lol

[Pol]

Those are the religious beliefs of some, based on their own inner religion. The W.I.C.C.A. letters were written to disprove and demonise another religion by people outside of that religion.
Because I know that some people would doubt things that I believe, I'm not going to doubt them. I may think it far fetched, or it may not fit my ideas of life, but that doesn't mean it's impossible or they are mental.

[Erebus]

The W.I.C.C.A. letters were written to disprove and demonise another religion by people outside of that religion.

But why is he "obviously" making all this up when other people who make equally fantastic claims given the benefit of the doubt to the tenth power?

[Pol]

Well, in the 1980s, there was a lot of fear going around about Satanists and witchest and wicca and pagans. They were blaming murders on wiccans like crazy. Christians jumped all over it.

As a pagan, I know I'm not a satanist. I know a lot of wiccans, and I know they don't worship the old dark lord. I know that's not what Wicca is based on, and as such these claims are undeniably false because they are meant to demonise a religion i am close to and also my own religion. I know I don't worship satan, and know maybe one person who does. Ergo, wiccans aren't out to set satan up in rule over the world.

Also, the things pointed out in the article are things that can be blamed on the people writing it.
Our schools suck? Blame it on the witches. My son hates me because I'm a bigotted preacher? Blame it on the wiccans.
Ozzy Osbourne scares me? Blame it on the wiccans.

I was once a part of that community. I know how false they are and how they make stuff up to get a rise out of people and to feel powerful.
They're not even pretending to be lead by spirituality or their innerself. They're pretending to be the holder of a secret.

When people say they have a secret, everyone wants to hear it. If you want to control someone, act like they're in the dark, then tell them some great and mighty secret that will rock their world. Chances are they'll stone you or believe you and follow you. Nowadays, stoning's not much of an option.

I have seen spirits with my own eyes, I have spoken with trees. So I have no reason to doubt anyone else doing so, nor can I doubt the truth as others have seen it.
I do not believe there is a great cosmic evil force. Guardians do. I believe that spiritual things are fulfilled for each person. If you need an evil cosmic force, there'll be one to battle for them.
I'm not going to doubt a deeply spiritual, inner belief of someone. I may not believe them, I may not agree, but I'm not going to say they're lying if they're speaking of themselves and their own experiences. There's nothing to judge there except for their truth, and that's impossible to do.

However, if someone came up to me and said 'Every night at 9:00PM EST your father goes out to the storage shed and worships satan, and sacrifices little babies.'
I'm not going to believe that, because I know that every night at 9:00PM EST my father is sitting on the couch watching TV. They're not speaking of religion or their inner truth, they're telling lies about someone else.

[equinox2]

Erebus-

I feel the same way you do about the threads you posted. However, Pol’s point is that one is “internal delusion about one’s own religion”, and the other is “external delusion about another religion”. While you and I may see little credence in either type of delusion, you and I can probably agree that they have different purposes.

Internal delusions about one’s own experiences serve to give someone a spiritual feeling, or otherwise feed their spirituality. They can be harmful (such as when someone so completely believes in fate that they don’t get off their butt and get a job), but usually aren’t, and aren’t as harmful as the other kind. Besides, Pol has a point – the subjective nature of these makes them hard to disprove – it is possible in some wild way that a few of these things exist (though it isn’t my guess).

External delusions can (and usually are) used to mobilize group hatred or derision toward another group. They are the acid that eats away compassion and splits community. They hijack our evolved tribal emotions and use them to advance the group or religion that uses them. They come up over and over throughout history, such as when the Christians accused the Jews of sacrificing and eating babies, or before that when the pagans accused the early Christians of sacrificing and eating babies. Their harmfulness should remind rational people like us to focus on them before worrying too much about internal delusions. Not that we shouldn’t point out the other – we should. After all, internal criticism like that is what keeps groups from getting weird. However, the priority seems clear to me.

PS - Erebus, I might steal the last part of you sig. If I decide to, is that OK?

[Erebus]

PS - Erebus, I might steal the last part of you sig. If I decide to, is that OK?

Be my guest!

[Dallin]

Oy vey! :bangyourh That's just stupid! :hehehehe:

Dallin