Christain Wicca

[MorningDove030202]

Oh, I agree, most don't recognise that they are raising energy, they are unaware. But those Christians here who are blending with other paths that involve energy manipulation (magick) would find it useful, I'm sure.
Dove


Hi there again, just chiming in here.

You know your post would seem to make sense, but it's not fact. I have been dating a Christian now - a minister even - and they have no concept of sacred space. They raise energy sure, but they are completely unaware. There's no real structure and no acknowledgement of the power they generate. Very strange to me being raised Catholic and now a Witch.

But again, I am speaking of American Christianity, Evangelical, type of Christianity.

[Faia Kokoro]

Maybe I can't put it as eloquently as some of the folks here have, but I accept the teachings of Jesus and recognize him as a spiritual leader, but I believe that the God and Goddess are in all living things, rather than a patriarchal, jealous, 'worship no gods but me' kind of fire and brimstone God, and simple as I may be, but I don't think there's any contradiction there, as Jesus surely revised a lot of the much, much older teachings in the Old Testament ... just my ten cents worth. please don't shoot me down...

I have a similar view of the Gods and Goddesses but I think there is a big contradiction in the term "Christian Wiccan" or even "Christian Witch". I was raised Christian and all of my family still follows that religion very, very strongly and (now please don't hate me for saying this) I honestly see deeming one's self as a Christian Witch is a way to hold on to the religion you were raised as while still pursuing wicca. I know when I first developed my taste for wicca I was terrified of going to hell. It's a scary thought that is brain-washed into those of us who are raised with it.
I'm not trying to bash Christianity, I have a deep respect of all the religions out there, but I just don't think the two can blend at all. Everyone follows their own path, and maybe you can find way to incorperate one into the other but it's simply a contradiction of laws to be both.

[shuvanilu]

That's very true. Joseph Smith was very influenced by Hermeticism and Masonry, which is why you see a lot of Hermetic thought embedded within Mormon theology.

There's a great book called "The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Theology" by John L. Brooke that I highly recommend for anyone that is interested in the subject.


I'd like to read that. You know, I was raised Mormon. And it was just a hop, skip and a jump from there to where I am now: Wiccan with Gnostic influences. Blessings----shuvanilu

[coeur]

I do think Christian and Wicca are two contradicting terms. You are either of one religion or of no religion and being both monotheist and polytheist is not really acceptable to most Christian sects.

Also, let's consider most people who are 'Christian Wiccans' and what they really want: usually magick. They don't want to be Wiccans but they want to practise magick. Unfortunately due to the massive number of Wiccan sites on the net, it often seems like there is only one way to practise magick: through Wicca.

This misconception is very untrue. You can be a Christian and practise magick. In fact, I'd say that 90% of High/Ceremonial Magick is Christian or Judeo-Christian magick.

I would like to see the retention rate of 'Christian Wicca' after giving fliers explaining this fact to every Christian Wiccan. I'd say that at least 75% of them would just go back to being normal Christians who practise magick.

[Ninjakitten]

I do think Christian and Wicca are two contradicting terms. You are either of one religion or of no religion and being both monotheist and polytheist is not really acceptable to most Christian sects.

Also, let's consider most people who are 'Christian Wiccans' and what they really want: usually magick. They don't want to be Wiccans but they want to practise magick. Unfortunately due to the massive number of Wiccan sites on the net, it often seems like there is only one way to practise magick: through Wicca.

This misconception is very untrue. You can be a Christian and practise magick. In fact, I'd say that 90% of High/Ceremonial Magick is Christian or Judeo-Christian magick.

I would like to see the retention rate of 'Christian Wicca' after giving fliers explaining this fact to every Christian Wiccan. I'd say that at least 75% of them would just go back to being normal Christians who practise magick.

Many Christian Wiccans that I know were actually Wiccan who decided to use the Christian Godhead (Holy Spirit actually being the Goddess and not just some spirit thingie) instead of using Greek, Egyptian, Norse, or other pantheons (last I heard, those pantheons don't get along together, at least according to the original forms of those belief systems). When they call the Quarters, they have Archangels that represent the elements. They are quite knowledgeable in the facts you've mentioned and it hasn't swayed them one bit, but only encouraged them to feel their path is legit. I'm not a Christian Wiccan myself, but I am a Christian witch whose knowledge of the Craft has a Wiccan influence to it, in case you were wondering.

[coeur]

Many Christian Wiccans that I know were actually Wiccan who decided to use the Christian Godhead (Holy Spirit actually being the Goddess and not just some spirit thingie) instead of using Greek, Egyptian, Norse, or other pantheons (last I heard, those pantheons don't get along together, at least according to the original forms of those belief systems). When they call the Quarters, they have Archangels that represent the elements. They are quite knowledgeable in the facts you've mentioned and it hasn't swayed them one bit, but only encouraged them to feel their path is legit. I'm not a Christian Wiccan myself, but I am a Christian witch whose knowledge of the Craft has a Wiccan influence to it, in case you were wondering.

That sort of practise exists, yes, however, that sort of magick is more a type of Hermetic magick much more than it is any type of Wicca or witchcraft. I think that the Golden Dawn systems of magick, which, also deals heavily with God and the names of God, are more complete in the aspect of knowing Judeo-Christian esoteric knowledge. The practitioners of Hermetic magick frequently do so for spiritual reasons and for gaining knowledge of the universe and God through the means of understanding how 1) the different religions relate to each other and to the Ultimate Creator, 2) extensive insight on Creation and Christian spirituality, and 3) magick in greater harmony with Christian ideals.

However, deities in the Wiccan tradition are not frequently used to contradict or lump deities with each other. The reason is because they work with The Goddess and The God and choose to do so frequently without the introduction cross-cultural deities. The Goddess and The God are entities of their own and do not need to rely on anything else. Also, deities of polytheist origin frequently don't care about mixed use of pantheons if you don't mix them all into one ritual. For instance, the simultaneous evokation of Eris, Loki, and Coyote is bound to wind up as a bar fight. However, evoked seperately (well they're still sort of hostile anyway), they prove to be more time and don't really care what you've worked with before.

[Ninjakitten]

That sort of practise exists, yes, however, that sort of magick is more a type of Hermetic magick much more than it is any type of Wicca or witchcraft. I think that the Golden Dawn systems of magick, which, also deals heavily with God and the names of God, are more complete in the aspect of knowing Judeo-Christian esoteric knowledge. The practitioners of Hermetic magick frequently do so for spiritual reasons and for gaining knowledge of the universe and God through the means of understanding how 1) the different religions relate to each other and to the Ultimate Creator, 2) extensive insight on Creation and Christian spirituality, and 3) magick in greater harmony with Christian ideals.

However, deities in the Wiccan tradition are not frequently used to contradict or lump deities with each other. The reason is because they work with The Goddess and The God and choose to do so frequently without the introduction cross-cultural deities. The Goddess and The God are entities of their own and do not need to rely on anything else. Also, deities of polytheist origin frequently don't care about mixed use of pantheons if you don't mix them all into one ritual. For instance, the simultaneous evokation of Eris, Loki, and Coyote is bound to wind up as a bar fight. However, evoked seperately (well they're still sort of hostile anyway), they prove to be more time and don't really care what you've worked with before.

Good points. Thanks for the clarifications. I'm not 100% knowledgable on Christian Wiccan practices. I just know what I know from the woman who wrote "Christian Wicca: The Trinitarian Tradition", and don't know much more beyond that. I do know that there are many who call themselves simply Christian witches who practice what you mentioned, including ones on her Christian Wicca Yahoo group.

[Cerberus]

I'm Christan Wiccan. I love God and thank him for life eventhough it sucks I am grateful for the heavenly father. But hey it doesn't matter everyone has there own opinion, but God is the path I follow.

[KylalaKitty]

Christian Wicca/witchcraft? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thats a good one :)

[Grimr]

Christian Wicca/witchcraft? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thats a good one :)

I believe that to be a sense of irony of those two together. ;)

Why it might even be heresy.

[Protagonist]

Christian Wicca makes no sense whatsoever to me, really. Wiccans believe one thing about God, and Christians believe another. There's a longass tradition of Christian witchcraft, however, and a lot of the practices of such were pretty influential in the formation of Wicca. (Yes, yes, I know no one wants to hear it, but Wicca has it's roots in Christian ceremonial magic.) Still, the modern religions seem too different to mingle successfully into one. G'luck.

[Semjaza]

I can understand Christians practicing folk magic (ie. Some Cunning-folk using psalms etc in their magic) but I can only comprehend Christian Wicca in the sense of making each term so stretched and vague as to be useless. You can draw correlations between Christian symbolism and Wiccan symbolism (Mother and Son, Goddess gives birth to God, Mary gives birth to Jesus, also the 'Green Jesus/Dionysus'), and you can say that a lot of Christian customs came from pagan customs, but in the end they (Christianity and Wicca) are two different religions. Just because both are valid religious paths doesn't mean that you can practice both at the same time. The worldviews of many Christians and that of many pagans and Wiccans are irreconcilable, and I think this diversity is a good thing.

So, in theory, I disagree with the entire concept of Christian Wicca. In practice, everyone does whatever they want to anyway, so don't let me get in your way :) As someone asked previously, Why can't everyone believe whatever they want to believe? My answer, Everyone does. There's just no need to call it Wicca, or Christianity. IMHO, if you're practicing both you're practicing neither.

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

[Fire's Shadow]

Christian Wicca/witchcraft? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thats a good one :)

/sarcastic mode on

Christian Wicca? Sounds like a syncretic belief to me. Yeah, I bet no one else has done that before. Let’s just ignore the fact that Vodun, Santeria, Candomblé, Caodaism, Konkokyo, and Seicho-No-Ie were all syncretic beliefs. Or let's all point at these silly syncretic heretics and maim them because we don't understand what they are doing or even give them the time of day. Wait... this sounds VAGUELY FAMILIER.

/sarcastic mode off


I believe that to be a sense of irony of those two together. ;)

Why it might even be heresy.

Why yes, it’s almost like saying “Positive Fascism.” :hahugh:

[Fire's Shadow]

Look people, I'm not Wiccan, and I'm definitely not Christian. I'm not a combination of the two either. I vote for the 3rd option. I did, however, a while back look through the possibilities of merging the two shortly after reading up on paganism. I figured that that path wasn’t for me.

They aren't Christian, and they aren't Wiccan. They are a 3rd religion unto themselves. Is that what you people are upset about? The terminology? If that's the case, maybe we should tell Messianic Jews, Jewish Buddhists, and Jewish Mormons to change the label of their faith because they contradictory in nature as well?

Ok people, my whole spiel here is this: I think we are using double standards. We are saying that we can use opposing beliefs, reconcile them, and incorporate them into our beliefs, but others (namely Christian Wiccans) can’t. I’m sure at one point or another, we’ve all used it before. I’ve used it to define my own belief about evolution (Evolutionary creationism). Syncretism and also eclecticism are wonderful tools. We use them to help tailor a path that fits to who we are. Syncretism has been used by every major religion on the planet, and I don’t see why it can’t be used here. For those of you who don’t understand the nature of syncretism or syncretic faiths they are pretty much defined as “[an] attempt to reconcile disparate, even opposing, beliefs and to meld practices of various schools of thought.” We shouldn’t be telling these people they are crazy for doing this. We should be praising and encouraging them. What they are doing is creative and provocative. These are a couple of the many attributes that represent the heart and soul of the neopaganism movement itself.

I support what they are doing, and I look forward to seeing more fascinating creations to reconcile the irreconcilable.

[David19]

Look people, I'm not Wiccan, and I'm definitely not Christian. I'm not a combination of the two either. I vote for the 3rd option. I did, however, a while back look through the possibilities of merging the two shortly after reading up on paganism. I figured that that path wasn’t for me.

They aren't Christian, and they aren't Wiccan. They are a 3rd religion unto themselves. Is that what you people are upset about? The terminology? If that's the case, maybe we should tell Messianic Jews, Jewish Buddhists, and Jewish Mormons to change the label of their faith because they contradictory in nature as well?

Ok people, my whole spiel here is this: I think we are using double standards. We are saying that we can use opposing beliefs, reconcile them, and incorporate them into our beliefs, but others (namely Christian Wiccans) can’t. I’m sure at one point or another, we’ve all used it before. I’ve used it to define my own belief about evolution (Evolutionary creationism). Syncretism and also eclecticism are wonderful tools. We use them to help tailor a path that fits to who we are. Syncretism has been used by every major religion on the planet, and I don’t see why it can’t be used here. For those of you who don’t understand the nature of syncretism or syncretic faiths they are pretty much defined as “[an] attempt to reconcile disparate, even opposing, beliefs and to meld practices of various schools of thought.” We shouldn’t be telling these people they are crazy for doing this. We should be praising and encouraging them. What they are doing is creative and provocative. These are a couple of the many attributes that represent the heart and soul of the neopaganism movement itself.

I support what they are doing, and I look forward to seeing more fascinating creations to reconcile the irreconcilable.

I completly agree with you.

[shuvanilu]

Look people, I'm not Wiccan, and I'm definitely not Christian. I'm not a combination of the two either. I vote for the 3rd option. I did, however, a while back look through the possibilities of merging the two shortly after reading up on paganism. I figured that that path wasn’t for me.

They aren't Christian, and they aren't Wiccan. They are a 3rd religion unto themselves. Is that what you people are upset about? The terminology? If that's the case, maybe we should tell Messianic Jews, Jewish Buddhists, and Jewish Mormons to change the label of their faith because they contradictory in nature as well?

Ok people, my whole spiel here is this: I think we are using double standards. We are saying that we can use opposing beliefs, reconcile them, and incorporate them into our beliefs, but others (namely Christian Wiccans) can’t. I’m sure at one point or another, we’ve all used it before. I’ve used it to define my own belief about evolution (Evolutionary creationism). Syncretism and also eclecticism are wonderful tools. We use them to help tailor a path that fits to who we are. Syncretism has been used by every major religion on the planet, and I don’t see why it can’t be used here. For those of you who don’t understand the nature of syncretism or syncretic faiths they are pretty much defined as “[an] attempt to reconcile disparate, even opposing, beliefs and to meld practices of various schools of thought.” We shouldn’t be telling these people they are crazy for doing this. We should be praising and encouraging them. What they are doing is creative and provocative. These are a couple of the many attributes that represent the heart and soul of the neopaganism movement itself.

I support what they are doing, and I look forward to seeing more fascinating creations to reconcile the irreconcilable.

As do I! You've hit the nail on the head, Sir!:fpraise: This is exactle how I feel about it.---shuvanilu

[Grimr]

/sarcastic mode on

Christian Wicca? Sounds like a syncretic belief to me. Yeah, I bet no one else has done that before. Let’s just ignore the fact that Vodun, Santeria, Candomblé, Caodaism, Konkokyo, and Seicho-No-Ie were all syncretic beliefs. Or let's all point at these silly syncretic heretics and maim them because we don't understand what they are doing or even give them the time of day. Wait... this sounds VAGUELY FAMILIER.

/sarcastic mode off



Why yes, it’s almost like saying “Positive Fascism.” :hahugh:





“Positive Fascism.”


It was a thread to explore the possibilities of Fascism.

I also stated in the beginning I was not sure of the issue myself. ;)


Anyhow on Christianity God forbays any practice related to witchcraft.

" Thou shall not suffer a witch to live."

Well that was what their Christian God said atleast.

So it is obvious that it is a sin for a Christian to practice any form of witchcraft.

[shuvanilu]

That verse was changed during the reign of King James. The original translation was "Thou shalt suffer not a poisoner to live".--shuvanilu

[BlackMagicalCat]

As do I! You've hit the nail on the head, Sir!:fpraise: This is exactle how I feel about it.---shuvanilu
Well,thats fine I guess,,so long as they dont come knocking on my door-Would you like to except the Goddess as your personal saviour?

[Ninjakitten]

That verse was changed during the reign of King James. The original translation was "Thou shalt suffer not a poisoner to live".--shuvanilu


Yeah. What she said. The Bible had been retranslated many times over the centuries to where there are a lot of things that don't hold anywhere near the same meaning as things today. That's something better researched on your own than having me recite it to you. It's pretty easy information to find reliable sources for.

If you think about it, what kind of stuff did the ancient Hebrews do in the Old Testament as forms of worship and sacrifice? Aside from the sacrificing of lambs I mean? They did things like sacrificing a certain number of doves, certain recipes of incense, and did all sorts of ritual stuff that sounds awfully "witchy" by our standards. Many of those practices were still around at Jesus' time.

Also, many of us Christian witches don't tend to trust everything the "Apostle" Paul had to say. He never even met Jesus, and even made a hobby of persecuting Christians (originally), then suddenly has a vision of Jesus and thinks he knows all about him? He even had arguments with the real Apostles over things, if you take at least parts of the Bible as having some sort of recorded history. He was a Pharasee who couldn't shed his Pharasee robes when he turned Christian, but there were a lot of things spirit inspired and Christian he had to say, like when he spoke of the spiritual gifts for example. To me, some of those sound like Christian versions of witchcraft, and I actually have several of them, some I had before I was even Christian and then explained finally when I became a Christian, others since I've been Christian (the Tongues thing never really happened before then, and it freaked me out when it did because I had no clue about the Tongues gift yet).

Many people believe that much of what Jesus did was actually witchcraft, and not Divine. I personally think it was a combination of both. I believe he was a man with Divine Authority given to him by Godde (God YHWH and Goddess Sophia in one), not God literally. He healed in ways that if he only used Divine healing, he had no purpose in doing, like healing a blind man by spitting in the dirt, making a paste to cover the man's eyes with, and told him to wash the mud off at a sacred river (I think it was the Euphrates, but I can't remember), and the blind man was reported to see.

There's an interesting paper called something like "Jesus was a Witch", "10 Reasons Jesus was a Witch", or something like that (I think I usually find it if I Google "Jesus" and "Witch" at the same time). Parts of it I think were a stretch (after all, you can make the Bible say anything you want if you don't research translations far enough back), but some made some sense. Check it out!

There's much more evidence that what we consider witchcraft today is 1) nothing like the so called "witchcraft" of the times the word was used when it was originally put in the Bible as such, and 2) that they can go together quite well, though you need to take the Bible as neither literally nor witchcraft as being one strict method. Then again, the exact same thing can be said about me as a scientist, too. There's more said about the evils of what science does (and even science specifically) than about what we know today as witchcraft.


Actually, I was thinking I was posting this on another thread for a few minutes when someone asked about reconciling the Christian/witchcraft thing, so I think I'll cut and paste this over there, too, so it doesn't get lost in the pages of this one when I try to link it.

[shuvanilu]

Here's the article you were thinking of, Ninja Kitten.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/jesuswitch.html

It's written by the prolific author Carl McColman.---shuvanilu

[BlackMagicalCat]

Here's the article you were thinking of, Ninja Kitten.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/jesuswitch.html

It's written by the prolific author Carl McColman.---shuvanilu
Well,thats nice,,but dont forget the part where Jesus said,He that believes on me has everlasting life,he that believes not on me,shall not see life,but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There are dozens of scriptures where Christ warned of judgment,hell,and commanded all men to repent of thier sins,and to turn to God(the God of Israel)Who he said was his Father.

None of these things are wiccan teachings.

[Fire's Shadow]

It was a thread to explore the possibilities of Fascism.

I also stated in the beginning I was not sure of the issue myself. ;)

Anyhow on Christianity God forbays any practice related to witchcraft.

" Thou shall not suffer a witch to live."

Well that was what their Christian God said atleast.

So it is obvious that it is a sin for a Christian to practice any form of witchcraft.

You missed the whole point of what I was trying to say. There are similar obstacles in other syncretic beliefs.

[shuvanilu]

Well,thats nice,,but dont forget the part where Jesus said,He that believes on me has everlasting life,he that believes not on me,shall not see life,but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There are dozens of scriptures where Christ warned of judgment,hell,and commanded all men to repent of thier sins,and to turn to God(the God of Israel)Who he said was his Father.

None of these things are wiccan teachings.

I was just trying to help out Ninjakitten because she couldn't remember the name of link she wanted. No need to remind me of Christian scriptre. I am well aware of it.---shuvanilu

[David19]

Well,thats nice,,but dont forget the part where Jesus said,He that believes on me has everlasting life,he that believes not on me,shall not see life,but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There are dozens of scriptures where Christ warned of judgment,hell,and commanded all men to repent of thier sins,and to turn to God(the God of Israel)Who he said was his Father.

None of these things are wiccan teachings.

But then you also have to remember Jesus never 'founded' a religion called Christianity, he wanted to create a Jewish sect, just like there were/are lots of other Jewish sects e.g. in his time, there were the Essene's, Zealot's, etc.

Just it's not in the 'scripture's' doesn't mean it can't be done, like the bible (at least, 'officially', is against LGBT people, does that mean LGBT people 'can't' be Christian, or that Christian's should 'stone' LGBT people, although saying that, there are 'Christian reconstructionists' that are want to 'revive' that). Even if the bible is 'against' witches and witchcraft, religions need to change and evolve, as my friend said, they can't stay in the past, so does it really matter what the bible says about witches, if religions didn't evolve, then people following Asatru and other parts of Heathernry(sp) would still want to drown LGBT people in bogs, Judaism would still perform live animal sacrifices, etc.

[Semjaza]

Just as a side note, this page is interesting, even though it doesn't support my view that Christian Wicca theoretically can't work.

It's from the Ontario Consultants in Religious Tolerance, and they asked the question, Can a person be both a Wiccan and a Christian?

Their conclusion is that: "Some Wiccans might feel comfortable considering herself/himself to be a Christian in the sense that they regard Jesus to be a great prophet and religious teacher, and that they attempt to follow his teachings. It appears to be impossible for a Wiccan to match the definition of a Christian that is used by conservative Christian faith groups."

Their argument, question, and conclusion, is here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr5.htm

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

[Ninjakitten]

Just as a side note, this page is interesting, even though it doesn't support my view that Christian Wicca theoretically can't work.

It's from the Ontario Consultants in Religious Tolerance, and they asked the question, Can a person be both a Wiccan and a Christian?

Their conclusion is that: "Some Wiccans might feel comfortable considering herself/himself to be a Christian in the sense that they regard Jesus to be a great prophet and religious teacher, and that they attempt to follow his teachings. It appears to be impossible for a Wiccan to match the definition of a Christian that is used by conservative Christian faith groups."

Their argument, question, and conclusion, is here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr5.htm

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

Hmm. That's a pretty good way to put it. That more or less is the understanding I get from people who call themselves Christian Wiccans. That, and some take the idea of a triple God (Father YHWH, Son Jesus, Holy Spirit or something else I can't remember) and a triple Goddess (Mother either Mary or Sophia, Daughter Mary Magdelene, and Holy Spirit or Sophia if she's not Mother). They also consider the four archangels to be the guardians of the quarters (I even found some really cool artwork that depicts this idea). In all, it sounds to me like Wiccans who want to incorporate the Christian mythos into their practice rather than "hanging on to the hope of salvation" by keeping their toes in the savior's door.

[Grimr]

That verse was changed during the reign of King James. The original translation was "Thou shalt suffer not a poisoner to live".--shuvanilu

Could you show me more information for your translation?

Also what is their definition of poisoner?

Honestly there are many other examples like the sorcerer of Baal for instance in another bible parable.


Well,thats nice,,but dont forget the part where Jesus said,He that believes on me has everlasting life,he that believes not on me,shall not see life,but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There are dozens of scriptures where Christ warned of judgment,hell,and commanded all men to repent of thier sins,and to turn to God(the God of Israel)Who he said was his Father.

None of these things are wiccan teachings.

Right let's say both were compatible, ( Which I don't think they are personally.) there still is the fact that Christianity and Jesus demands the obedience of all people like all the Abrahamic religions.

Therefore it is a belief in assimilation.

That deeply bothers me.


You missed the whole point of what I was trying to say. There are similar obstacles in other syncretic beliefs.

Help me understand.


But then you also have to remember Jesus never 'founded' a religion called Christianity, he wanted to create a Jewish sect, just like there were/are lots of other Jewish sects e.g. in his time, there were the Essene's, Zealot's, etc.

Just it's not in the 'scripture's' doesn't mean it can't be done, like the bible (at least, 'officially', is against LGBT people, does that mean LGBT people 'can't' be Christian, or that Christian's should 'stone' LGBT people, although saying that, there are 'Christian reconstructionists' that are want to 'revive' that). Even if the bible is 'against' witches and witchcraft, religions need to change and evolve, as my friend said, they can't stay in the past, so does it really matter what the bible says about witches, if religions didn't evolve, then people following Asatru and other parts of Heathernry(sp) would still want to drown LGBT people in bogs, Judaism would still perform live animal sacrifices, etc.





if religions didn't evolve, then people following Asatru and other parts of Heathernry(sp) would still want to drown LGBT people in bogs,


Show me any tenets that commands those beliefs to throw people in bogs.

You can't.

Please do not describe two great beliefs with the horrendous acts of idiots who killed people.

I am not trying to be mean.

I am just trying to help you understand things in a informative manner.

[Betah]

Right let's say both were compatible, ( Which I don't think they are personally.) there still is the fact that Christianity and Jesus demands the obedience of all people like all the Abrahamic religions.
The referenced tendencies of certain denominations are almost unheard of in several major denominations, you possibly haven't noticed them because they aren't actually running around bothering others. Such tendencies are certainly not critical to Christianity, let alone critical to most Christians.

Help me understand.
It is possible (in fact quite normal, even outside of syncretic belief structures) to reconcile 2 apparently contradictory beliefs, by omission of parts of one or other belief (possible if the omitted parts are extraneous) or study of the underlying reason behind said beliefs, to determine if they genuinely are irreconcilable.

[stella01904]

If you revere Nature, you don't see it as "fallen". If you don't believe in "the Fall" or "the Devil", "salvation" is silly.
So I voted "No, it's a contradiction of terms", obviously.
Stella

[David19]

If you revere Nature, you don't see it as "fallen". If you don't believe in "the Fall" or "the Devil", "salvation" is silly.
So I voted "No, it's a contradiction of terms", obviously.
Stella

But there are Christian groups who also 'revere' nature, some see the earth in a pantheistic sort of way, and see God as the earth (i think), plus not all Christian's believe in Satan, at least as an 'evil' guy, a lot of liberal Christian's are still Christian, but don't believe in an 'all evil' deity (for example, Eliot Rose, is a Christian philospher, who wrote 'the absurdity of evil' (i think that's the name, anyway)).

Beside's a lot of Wiccan ritual is derived from Christian mysticism and there's a site i posted in the thread 'Are 'pagans' anti-Christian?' in the Just Pagan forum, with a link to a site that has some quotes from Gardner and Valiente (Valiente says something like she knew a witch who has a picture of Jesus in her private sanctuary or altar or something).

So, if the founders saw no problem with Christianity, then i see no problem.

[stella01904]

But there are Christian groups who also 'revere' nature, some see the earth in a pantheistic sort of way, and see God as the earth (i think), plus not all Christian's believe in Satan, at least as an 'evil' guy, a lot of liberal Christian's are still Christian, but don't believe in an 'all evil' deity (for example, Eliot Rose, is a Christian philospher, who wrote 'the absurdity of evil' (i think that's the name, anyway)).
There are some sects like this. If you've read Sylvia Browne's books where she talks about her Gnostic path, she states she believes in a god and goddess, also fairies, and that the devil is a Tulpa, or artificial entity that people have created with their belief. She doesn't believe Angels fall, either, and if she doesn't see any Angels as fallen, she probably doesn't see the earth as fallen, either. She doesn't see the Bible as the absolute word of God, and allows that there are likely some mistakes and/or alterations in there. Her beliefs are similar to mine, but she does not call herself a Witch.

Witches do not accept the divinity of Jesus, except in the sense that EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is divine. In other words, if he's God, so is everybody else.

I see Jesus as a man of power, but of course so was Sitting Bull and countless other people.

Beside's a lot of Wiccan ritual is derived from Christian mysticismPlease clarify.
and there's a site i posted in the thread 'Are 'pagans' anti-Christian?' in the Just Pagan forum, with a link to a site that has some quotes from Gardner and Valiente (Valiente says something like she knew a witch who has a picture of Jesus in her private sanctuary or altar or something).This was likely a smokescreen, using the Jesus image as a representation of an older God in order not to alarm others.

So, if the founders saw no problem with Christianity, then i see no problem.I'll have a look, but I can tell you right now that Doreen Valiente did not practice Christianity, nor did Gardner.
Stella


But there are Christian groups who also 'revere' nature, We don't 'revere' nature, we revere Nature. There is a difference.
Stella

[Betah]

Witches do not accept the divinity of Jesus, except in the sense that EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is divine. In other words, if he's God, so is everybody else.
Actually Christ is generally considered divine in a very specific and exceptional manner, even by those groups within the Christian church that consider all humans inherently divine, this view is not precluded if the person is a witch (barring some extremely exclusive definition of witch, which is obviously not going to be a functional definition in the context).


I see Jesus as a man of power, but of course so was Sitting Bull and countless other people. Then you are rather missing the point, as Jesus is unlikely to be merely a man of power to anyone who considers themselves a Christian of any stripe.


This was likely a smokescreen, using the Jesus image as a representation of an older God in order not to alarm others.
Ha! You could not choose an image more likely to alarm others who would actually see your altar (most of whom would not be Christians) than an image of Christ.


I'll have a look, but I can tell you right now that Doreen Valiente did not practice Christianity, nor did Gardner.
They did not need to be Christian to have been accepting of it.

[stella01904]

Actually Christ is generally considered divine in a very specific and exceptional manner even by those groups within the Christian church I wasn't talking about "groups within the Christian church", I was talking about Witches.
that consider all humans inherently divine, this view is not precluded if the person is a witch If you are going to capitalise "Christian", it follows that you should capitalise "Witch". Remember the respect rule.
Again, I was talking about OUR beliefs, not other people's beliefs concerning us.
(barring some extremely exclusive definition of witch, which is obviously not going to be a functional definition in the context). Witchcraft, as defined by insiders, NOT Christians, do not consider Jesus as any more divine than any other man of power. It is not our path. We are accepting of your right to believe what you want, but we don't believe it. Also, OUR definition of OUR religion is perfectly functional, whether you think so or not.

Then you are rather missing the point, as Jesus is unlikely to be merely a man of power to anyone who considers themselves a Christian of any stripe.And yet again, I wasn't talking about Christians, I was talking about my own belief, and I am a Witch.

Ha! You could not choose an image more likely to alarm others who would actually see your altar (most of whom would not be Christians) than an image of Christ.Not my altar, you've obviously got me confused with someone else. I was talking about the Pagan practice in repressive times and places of using images of Jesus, Mary and the Saints to represent the Old Gods. It's been done everyplace from Italy to the African Diaspora. And what is so alarming about an icon with candles?


They did not need to be Christian to have been accepting of it.
And what is YOUR definition of "accepting"? Acknowledging the rights of other people to practice religion as they see fit, or "accepting" the concept of the divinity of Jesus?

I see a big parallel here between Christian Wicca and Messianic Judaism. I knew some Messianic Jews, once. Perfectly nice people, but their social circle consisted of either other Messianic Jews, or Christians - not Jews. From what I gather, the traditional Jewish community tends to see Messianic Judaism as a thinly disguised attempt at conversion.

This is far from the first time I've had this conversation, and I am here to tell you, every time it comes up, someone ends up trying to push Jesus on us. I mean no disrespect to you, your path or your avatar but I am here to tell you that I have my own.

I did not come to the Craft for the bells and whistles, so Christianity with Circles and tools holds no attraction for me. If that's what someone else wants to do, fine, as long as they don't try to push it on me.
Peace on your path,
Stella

[Betah]

I wasn't talking about "groups within the Christian church", I was talking about Witches.
You were talking in the context of a thread about Christian Wicca, you cannot reasonably decouple the argument based on a perceived conflict between the 2 into being a matter in which it is only valid to discuss the position of one side.

If you are going to capitalise "Christian", it follows that you should capitalise "Witch". Remember the respect rule.
Christian is capitalised because it is a name, the same does not hold for witch and while it is proper to capitalise the names of religions, it is Wicca, rather than witch that is the religious designator in the context.


Again, I was talking about OUR beliefs, not other people's beliefs concerning us. Witchcraft, as defined by insiders, NOT Christians, do not consider Jesus as any more divine than any other man of power.
Please indicate the particular law or dogma that precludes a Wiccan from taking an alternate view, ideally with an indication of which particular denomination of Wicca holds this view.


It is not our path. We are accepting of your right to believe what you want, but we don't believe it.
Obviously this apparent acceptance does not extend to Christian Wiccans
Also, OUR definition of OUR religion is perfectly functional, whether you think so or not. And yet again, I wasn't talking about Christians, I was talking about my own belief, and I am a Witch.
Your belief is irrelevant to the topic, unless you can back it up with doctrine that precludes a Wiccan from believing otherwise.

Not my altar, you've obviously got me confused with someone else. I was talking about the Pagan practice in repressive times and places of using images of Jesus, Mary and the Saints to represent the Old Gods. It's been done everyplace from Italy to the African Diaspora. And what is so alarming about an icon with candles?
The times and places of the original reference diverge quite markedly from the times and places in which those practises were commonplace, namely that, when among British occultists (especially around the time witchcraft was legalised) it was a notable oddity to use explicitly Christian imagery, because there was little to no disincentive to do otherwise.

And what is YOUR definition of "accepting"? Acknowledging the rights of other people to practice religion as they see fit, or "accepting" the concept of the divinity of Jesus?
Neither and the question itself is extremely disingenuous, being as it polarises to 2 possibilities, neither of which can reasonably be derived from my original statement.

I see a big parallel here between Christian Wicca and Messianic Judaism. I knew some Messianic Jews, once. Perfectly nice people, but their social circle consisted of either other Messianic Jews, or Christians - not Jews. From what I gather, the traditional Jewish community tends to see Messianic Judaism as a thinly disguised attempt at conversion.
Indeed, problem is neither syncretic belief is likely to actually be anything like an attempt at conversion, so it far more likely that the excluding party is simply acting irrationally, unless they can provide a well reasoned argument for their exclusion.

This is far from the first time I've had this conversation, and I am here to tell you, every time it comes up, someone ends up trying to push Jesus on us. I mean no disrespect to you, your path or your avatar but I am here to tell you that I have my own.
That's nice, but this thread has not, so far, devolved into the pushing of Christianity and has been here for nearly 2 years without doing so, thus any expectation that it is going to do otherwise is ill founded and disrespectful to the members of this board.
Further, I have seen this topic come up more times than I could reasonably be expected to count (somewhere in the low triple digits) and every single time, without exception, the attitude of those opposing has included this idea that such a belief should not be allowed, lest someone try to use it to convert Pagans, no such attempt at conversion ever materialised and all that was generated was a lot of irrational twaddle, about how it might lead to Pagans loosing their faith.

I did not come to the Craft for the bells and whistles, so Christianity with Circles and tools holds no attraction for me. If that's what someone else wants to do, fine, as long as they don't try to push it on me.
Peace on your path,
Stella
You summation of the paths this topic refers to belies your claim of respectfulness to others, as it places said path in terms of both your unattraction to it and a demeaning explanation of what you consider it to entail, you then add a completely unnecessary reminder not to push said path on others, based on what appears to be a presupposition that Christian Wiccans will share the evangelical tendencies of groupings of Christians that they are unlikely to be connected to in any meaningful way.

[stella01904]

You were talking in the context of a thread about Christian Wicca, you cannot reasonably decouple the argument based on a perceived conflict between the 2 into being a matter in which it is only valid to discuss the position of one side.So you are saying that the position of the non-Christian Witch has no place here? That tells me precisely where you are coming from, in spite of your Nixonesque wording.


Christian is capitalised because it is a name, the same does not hold for witch and while it is proper to capitalise the names of religions, it is Wicca, rather than witch that is the religious designator in the context.Wiccans call themselves Witches, as do the members of other branches of European Paganism. "Witch" is a name, as is "Christian".


Please indicate the particular law or dogma that precludes a Wiccan from taking an alternate view, ideally with an indication of which particular denomination of Wicca holds this view.
People are not precluded from doing anything. However, when one leaves the tenets of a particular religion, one becomes something else. Messianic Wicca is not true Wicca or Witchcraft, it is a hybrid. The Slain God motif in Wicca relates to the cycle of the seasons rather than anything having to do with "original sin" and "salvation". We don't believe in "original sin" and therefore have no need of "salvation". Also, Wicca is derived from Europe and not the Middle East. We have Elders over at the Authors' Circle who will tell you the same.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is not a crow.

Obviously this apparent acceptance does not extend to Christian Wiccans I am not attempting to stop anyone from believing whatever they want or calling themselves whatever they want. Christian Wicca, however, is Wicca in name only.

Your belief is irrelevant to the topic, unless you can back it up with doctrine that precludes a Wiccan from believing otherwise.And how is my belief irrelevant to the topic? What do you think the topic is about? Did you read the thread?
And I've already backed everything up. Again, we do not see Nature as fallen, we do not believe in original sin, we have no need of salvation, our beliefs are not from the Middle East, we don't venerate Jesus or Yawveh (who Joseph Campbell called "the tribal god of Hebrews"), we don't use a Bible. Our practices are generally condemned by the Bible, anyway. If you would like to try to reconcile the two, good luck, have fun. Just don't think you are going to drag me into it.


The times and places of the original reference diverge quite markedly from the times and places in which those practises were commonplace, namely that, when among British occultists (especially around the time witchcraft was legalised) it was a notable oddity to use explicitly Christian imagery, because there was little to no disincentive to do otherwise.So what's your point?

Neither and the question itself is extremely disingenuous, being as it polarises to 2 possibilities, neither of which can reasonably be derived from my original statement.It is the Christian Wiccans who consistently get hostile when I say "No thanks" and tell them why.

Indeed, problem is neither syncretic belief is likely to actually be anything like an attempt at conversion, so it far more likely that the excluding party is simply acting irrationally, unless they can provide a well reasoned argument for their exclusion.
I am under no obligation to provide you ANY explanation or argument, though I've been generous enough to do so, anyway. I really don't care, though, if an evangelical tells me I am "acting irrationally". I don't care to impress you.

That's nice, but this thread has not, so far, devolved into the pushing of Christianity and has been here for nearly 2 years without doing so, thus any expectation that it is going to do otherwise is ill founded and disrespectful to the members of this board.You're pushing it now. You're saying our saying our tenets are irrational. Who's "ill founded and disrespectful"?

Further, I have seen this topic come up more times than I could reasonably be expected to count (somewhere in the low triple digits) and every single time, without exception, the attitude of those opposing has included this idea that such a belief should not be allowed, lest someone try to use it to convert Pagans, no such attempt at conversion ever materialised and all that was generated was a lot of irrational twaddle, about how it might lead to Pagans loosing their faith.I'm not anywhere near losing anything. Perhaps that is what's ticking you off.
Stella

[Betah]

So you are saying that the position of the non-Christian Witch has no place here? That tells me precisely where you are coming from, in spite of your Nixonesque wording.
Stating that you cannot exclude the mention of an explicitly included portion of the topic from discussion in that topic is a simple statement of common sense, nothing more or less. Drawing inferences from said statement will not provide useful information about my position, as my position is always explicitly stated, not implicitly implied.

Wiccans call themselves Witches, as do the members of other branches of European Paganism. "Witch" is a name, as is "Christian".
In which case Witch would still have a different meaning from witch; the latter being the appropriate meaning in all of my previous statements.

People are not precluded from doing anything. However, when one leaves the tenets of a particular religion, one becomes something else. Messianic Wicca is not true Wicca or Witchcraft, it is a hybrid.
And Christian Wicca states as much in its name, so clearly this is not a valid criticism of the intellectual integrity of said path, leading me to conclude that it is entirely possible that you completely missed my request for evidence that Christian Wicca actually leaves the tenants of Wicca (or Christianity, but that's going to fail almost instantaneously).


The Slain God motif in Wicca relates to the cycle of the seasons rather than anything having to do with "original sin" and "salvation".
Is there actually a need for either of those ideas in order to be Christian; Not unless you want to narrow down Christianity beyond the point where the term really remains useful.

We don't believe in "original sin" and therefore have no need of "salvation".
I know for a fact that there are a decent number of Christians who do not believe in original sin, you should probably avoid trying to argue about Christianity entails, if you don't actually know.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is not a crow.
If all you can identify is that it has the bill of a duck, it may well be a platypus. Be careful about judging that which you have not examined closely.

I am not attempting to stop anyone from believing whatever they want or calling themselves whatever they want. Christian Wicca, however, is Wicca in name only.
Actually, you have provided no evidence it is actually not Wicca in any more meaningful sense, instead relying on extremely poor arguments, devoid of evidence. You have relied on your assumption that it violates the tenants of Wicca, without actually showing that it does.

And how is my belief irrelevant to the topic?
Because, without evidence that your beliefs are fundamental to determining the validity of a path, it is not valid to hold said path beholden to your beliefs about its validity.

What do you think the topic is about?
The support or lack thereof of Christian Wicca by the posters of this board.

Did you read the thread?
Every post, sentence and full stop, as you may have noticed by my earlier posts, starting as early as #72 out of a thread of 288 posts so far.

And I've already backed everything up. Again, we do not see Nature as fallen,
Nor do many large and numerous denominations, your apparent point of difference does not hold up under scrutiny, because it is based on a presupposition that Christianity is defined in terms that simply do not hold when exposed to the glaring reality of Christian practise.

we do not believe in original sin,
Another false measure, that does not hold as a universal constant for Christians and so cannot be used as a measure for comparison.

we have no need of salvation,
Not a necessary doctrine for Christians either, despite its prevalence. Also, you have still not provided evidence that there is any law, rule, dogma or doctrine in Wicca that precludes a true Wiccan from believing such a thing.

our beliefs are not from the Middle East,
Some are, most probably aren't and this comparison is obviously and overtly irrelevant in any case.
we don't venerate Jesus or Yawveh (who Joseph Campbell called "the tribal god of Hebrews"),
The choice of deities to venerate is the choice of the individual Wiccan, has this suddenly changed?

we don't use a Bible.
Is there some law precluding the use of a set of books in Wicca? I think not, but you can happily cite such a rule if one in fact exists.

Our practices are generally condemned by the Bible, anyway.
Which ones? If the answer is witchcraft, you need to understand that, said word, when used in the bible, is almost always derived from a word meaning "a brewer of deadly poisons", which while it resembles what the word "witch" meant, at the time of the King James translation, it does not bear anything more than a passing resemblance to the word as it is used today. It is a simple archaism, no different from the use of the word temper to mean "calm", when today saying "you have a temper" would be an accusation of intemperance.

If you would like to try to reconcile the two, good luck, have fun. Just don't think you are going to drag me into it.
By taking the position of such a path being a contradiction in terms you have explicitly involved yourself and implicitly denied its possibility in a manner that you cannot simply expect to be ignored.

So what's your point? It is the Christian Wiccans who consistently get hostile when I say "No thanks" and tell them why.
If I told you that your path was a contradiction in terms, I could easily formulate reasons every bit as effective as the ones that you have so far used, yet I would not expect you to do anything other than be annoyed at what is an obvious affront to your beliefs.

I am under no obligation to provide you ANY explanation or argument,
If you wish to have you opinion considered by others, such as when you submit it to an electronic fora, you should be ready to back it up, because you would desire no less if you were to ask another about the reasons for their opinion.

I really don't care, though, if an evangelical tells me I am "acting irrationally".
Hyperbole. Not very good hyperbole, either.

I don't care to impress you.
Good, because that's not the objective.

You're pushing it now.
I am referencing your claims about Christianity and Christian Wicca to a conflicting case in reality, there is a magnificently obvious difference between the 2.

You're saying our saying our tenets are irrational.
No, I'm saying that you supposed tenants do not appear to actually exist and certainly do not appear to be the tenants of Wicca, therefore pushing violation of those tenants as being no longer Wiccan does not rationally hold.

Who's "ill founded and disrespectful"?
You have babbled about what Christians believe, as if you understand even the most basic precepts of the Christian faith, you have drawn false contradiction after false contradiction and then complained when I highlighted them for being such and to top it all off you then accused me of pushing a belief I don't even hold, all the while pushing your stilted, broken and internally inconsistent view of what constitutes a valid belief.

I'm not anywhere near losing anything. Perhaps that is what's ticking you off. Stella
Actually, it's your bizarre tendency to ignore the words I have written in favour of imagined positions and false extremes, that (often directly) contradict what is actually in front of you in plain text, out of a sense that I am here to attempt to convert people, rather than actually discuss the matter that I am discussing. This added to the absurd us Vs. them mentality you appear to be a paragon of, leads me to believe that you are not here to discuss this matter, but simply to complain that your opinions have been called into question, due to their dubious (at best) association with the faith you profess to hold.

[stella01904]

Stating that you cannot exclude the mention of an explicitly included portion of the topic from discussion in that topic is a simple statement of common sense, nothing more or less. Drawing inferences from said statement will not provide useful information about my position, as my position is always explicitly stated, not implicitly implied.Wow, that's even better than "I know you think you understood what you thought you heard me say, but what you think you heard is not what I meant."

In which case Witch would still have a different meaning from witch; the latter being the appropriate meaning in all of my previous statements.We are talking about Witchcraft in the religious sense, not "Ashley is going to be a witch for Halloween."

And Christian Wicca states as much in its name, so clearly this is not a valid criticism of the intellectual integrity of said path, leading me to conclude that it is entirely possible that you completely missed my request for evidence that Christian Wicca actually leaves the tenants of Wicca (or Christianity, but that's going to fail almost instantaneously).
A) Christianity implies that the Bible is the literal word of God, and that Jesus is the son of God.
B) Wicca and Witchcraft do not accept this.


Is there actually a need for either of those ideas in order to be Christian; Not unless you want to narrow down Christianity beyond the point where the term really remains useful.So Christianity is only useful if you zap the tenets? Heck, why be Christian at all then?

I know for a fact that there are a decent number of Christians who do not believe in original sin, you should probably avoid trying to argue about Christianity entails, if you don't actually know.But I do know. I was raised with it.
There are a decent number of Christians who don't believe a lot of things but that is their personal choice, they are deviating from the Christian doctrine. It's called "lapsed".


If all you can identify is that it has the bill of a duck, it may well be a platypus. Be careful about judging that which you have not examined closely.Be careful about assuming what other people have and have not "examined closely".
Actually, you have provided no evidence it is actually not Wicca in any more meaningful sense, instead relying on extremely poor arguments, devoid of evidence. You have relied on your assumption that it violates the tenants of Wicca, without actually showing that it does.The fact that Witches revere Nature and do not see it as fallen, and revere the Old Gods of Europe, can hardly be called a "poor argument". A thing is what it is. Don't be foolish.

The support or lack thereof of Christian Wicca by the posters of this board.Precisely. And a good number of us do not support it.

Nor do many large and numerous denominations, your apparent point of difference does not hold up under scrutiny, because it is based on a presupposition that Christianity is defined in terms that simply do not hold when exposed to the glaring reality of Christian practise.There may be a few fringe sects that do not, but basic Christain Doctrine states that they believe in a fall. Else what do they need Jesus for?

Another false measure, that does not hold as a universal constant for Christians and so cannot be used as a measure for comparison."Universal constant"? Since when does it become necessary for every single person to hold a belief in order for that belief to be a tenet of a religion?

Not a necessary doctrine for Christians either, despite its prevalence. Also, you have still not provided evidence that there is any law, rule, dogma or doctrine in Wicca that precludes a true Wiccan from believing such a thing.I have stated numerous times that since we do not believe in a Fall, we have no need of salvation. The Old Religions of Europe do not have the concept of a fall. Wicca is rooted in European Paganism. Wicca sometimes blends things in, like Eastern concepts, but these things are basically compatible with the European Pagan systems. Wicca is not a bucket-o-whatever-opposing-doctrines-anybody-wants-to-throw-in.

Is there some law precluding the use of a set of books in Wicca? I think not, but you can happily cite such a rule if one in fact exists.This is just silly. I was talking about the Judeo/Christian Bible. We don't use it. It is not a part of European Paganism.

I have wasted enough time here, so I have a proposition for you: I will put you on my "ignore" list for a time, and during that time, I would like for you to read: Valiente, Gardner, Buckland, Grimassi, the Farrars, etc. Also the Bible. When you finally comprehend what a Christian is and what a Witch is, we can continue this discussion.
Stella

[Betah]

Wow, that's even better than "I know you think you understood what you thought you heard me say, but what you think you heard is not what I meant."
Well, if you must ignore my statements and instead choose to perceive bizarre maledictions that bear no substance or meaning, then I am going to comment on this misappropriation of written language.

We are talking about Witchcraft in the religious sense, not "Ashley is going to be a witch for Halloween."
Oh, good and there was me thinking that we were talking about the number of segments in an orange.
Did it ever occur to you that I may have in fact grasped that glaringly obvious datum before we even started this conversation?

A) Christianity implies that the Bible is the literal word of God
You fail Christianity 101. It implies no such thing, unless one is colossally ignorant of Christianity outside of a few, relatively small denominations, that are only big in a handful of countries.

, and that Jesus is the son of God.
This is the correct answer, most of the time anyway, but we probably shouldn't go into that.

B) Wicca and Witchcraft do not accept this.
This would be your crucial statement, which you seem to hold as an axiom, despite the fact that I have clearly and repeatedly stated that it needs corroboration before it can be held as such.

So Christianity is only useful if you zap the tenets? Heck, why be Christian at all then?
You seem to be belabouring under some really absurd miscomprehensions about what Christianity actually entails and what its core tenants are. To surmise in easy and digestible form they are:
1. Love God
2. Love thy neighbour (neighbour in this sense explicitly includes peoples of other faiths, as is clarified by the parable of the good Samaritan).
And that is it, no 3. Thou shalt smite the witch, the witch is bad, no 4. Thou shalt not say rude words in front of the kids, nothing else at all. Get it?

But I do know. I was raised with it.
Being raised in one denomination does not automatically impart knowledge, let alone understanding of the practise of other denominations, who have every right to call themselves Christian, because they have provided well founded and theologically consistent reasons for their beliefs.

There are a decent number of Christians who don't believe a lot of things but that is their personal choice, they are deviating from the Christian doctrine. It's called "lapsed".
The people in question would be lapsed if and only if they left the communion, now there are a few ways to get kicked out, but they are all very specific and most of them only hold sway within a particular denomination.

Be careful about assuming what other people have and have not "examined closely".
Not an assumption, as you yourself have shown that you have absolutely no concept of how several key elements (denominations and liberal churches to name but two) in this system actually function.

The fact that Witches revere Nature and do not see it as fallen,
It's not very smart to go repeating points which have previously been refuted and disproved.

and revere the Old Gods of Europe,
Examination of the Wiccans of this board shows that the gods in question do not seem to be European, even in majority.

can hardly be called a "poor argument".
The second of your points immediately prior to this statement, had not been previously mention and is the closest thing you have come up with to an actual point of any significance. If you wish to have your arguments treated as strong arguments, you should actually find arguments that take more than a simple thought to refute.

Precisely. And a good number of us do not support it.
And as this is the topic, I am quite comfortable in discussing your lack of support for said path.

There may be a few fringe sects that do not, but basic Christ[ia]n Christian Doctrine states that they believe in a fall.
A fall of humans, nature itself is not actually a party to this fall, merely an observer.

Else what do they need Jesus for?
Depends on the individual. No, really, it has always been up to the individual, even within most major denominations.

"Universal constant"? Since when does it become necessary for every single person to hold a belief in order for that belief to be a tenet of a religion?
To be tenet that you can reasonably require to be considered a subscriber to a religion, the tenet must actually have 2 things; 1. It must have a clear and firm line of reasoning that inalienably links said tenet to the core beliefs of the religion in question 2. It must be held as true by an extremely significant portion of said religion.
The tenet proposed fails at 1, as it is merely firmly linked to the core beliefs, but can made redundant.

I have stated numerous times that since we do not believe in a Fall,
And unless you can provide evidence of a preclusion from a Wiccan believing such you can keep stating it for all eternity, because I do not yield to invalid points.

we have no need of salvation.
Your implication also falls short, given that salvation can have several different meanings, only a few of which are actually tied directly to the notion of original sin.

Wicca sometimes blends things in, like Eastern concepts,
Actually, it clearly adopts whole portions of Eastern religion.

but these things are basically compatible with the European Pagan systems.
Guess what a syncretic belief based on Wicca and Christianity would accept; Those things which are basically compatible with each other. Amazing isn't it.

Wicca is not a bucket-o-whatever-opposing-doctrines-anybody-wants-to-throw-in.
It is however inherently syncretic and inherently formed in a way that accepts the validity of syncretic beliefs.

This is just silly. I was talking about the Judeo/Christian Bible. We don't use it. It is not a part of European Paganism.
Judeo/Christian Bible? Do you know what that term actually refers to? The Old Testament, which is usually considered to be largely irrelevant to the majority of Christian teaching, apart from as a useful source of context for the teachings of Jesus. Most denominations do not consider the OT to have precedence over (or even equality with) the NT. So talking about it as if it actually is going to be a significant cause of conflict during the creation of a syncretic belief is a foolish thing to do.

I have wasted enough time here, so I have a proposition for you: I will put you on my "ignore" list for a time, and during that time, I would like for you to read: Valiente, Gardner, Buckland, Grimassi, the Farrars, etc. Also the Bible.
Read it, , in several different forms and many different translations, in hundreds of different contexts, with translation notes and theological discussion at hand. The next exercise in deficient manhandling of sources, if you would be so kind.

When you finally comprehend what a Christian
Beat you to that one, my curiously incommutable opponent. Read up on such things as the Anglican Church, heck the Roman Catholic Church is probably liberal enough to dissuade your peculiarly extreme perception of Christianity.

is and what a Witch is,
You don't seem to be able to cite any rules regarding that yourself, heck I found stronger arguments against my position when looking up something on an entirely different faith than you managed to pull together, despite your claims of expertise.

we can continue this discussion. Stella
That would be nice, hopefully you will have some references, or at least something to use next time round.

[Kmartin60]

I dont know how to state my path, or if it would even count, but I consider myself a Christian who also believes in magic, or Wicca....how to put the 2 together? I am, but how to explain? _inabox_ I dont really have too....Im a oddball I guess....

I havent read ALL the posts in this thread, but the last page or 2 were enough.....I think there is a lot to learn in both, a lot if understanding needed from both....A lot of what Jesus teaches is exactly whats in the Wicca reed! Harm none....#1, etc. If you do an indepth research of the greek and hebrew meanings of the Old Testament, the only thing I came up with (Thru the Strong's concordence) is basicly, dont try to control another person's free will, and something about someone who talks to the dead, (? still studing that part of the Old Testament) but, basicely that was it. I also dont think that we are suppose to know some things like when we are to die, but that's MY opinion!

I also noticed that king Solomon, and Moses had Grimiores...........
(makes you wonder)...

we are suppose to ascend in knowledge, so that's why I guess im a solitary Witch, I throw everyone off kilter! :yayah: Just My humble, uneccessary, opinion.........
the Mystical, green/hedge, shamanic Witch! :awilly:

[stella01904]

I dont know how to state my path, or if it would even count, but I consider myself a Christian who also believes in magic, or Wicca....how to put the 2 together?
Well, Wicca is not magic. Wicca is the veneration of the God and Goddess, and the cycle of the seasons. Magic may or may not enter into it. So a Christian who believes in magic would be a mystical Christian of one stripe or another.
A lot of what Jesus teaches is exactly whats in the Wicca reed! Harm none....#1, etc.The Rede is a modern concept. I think Gardner got it from Crowley. But you are correct, there is a thread of truth that runs through all religions.

I also noticed that king Solomon, and Moses had Grimiores...........
(makes you wonder)...I don't think the Key of Solomon was actually written by Solomon, but there are legends of him practicing magic, sealing monsters in jars and whatnot. And Moses was raised in Egypt, so.....

On the other hand, there are passages in the Bible forbidding magic. Meaning no disrespect and speaking for myself, it seems that people take a cafeteria approach to the text, picking out what appeals to them and ignoring the rest. For instance, they pick the love teachings of Jesus but ignore his statements condemning homosexuals, yet still profess to be a follower of Jesus. I found it simpler to let all that go and just be a Witch. :hahugh:

BB, Stella

[Betah]

If you do an indepth research of the greek and hebrew meanings of the Old Testament, the only thing I came up with (Thru the Strong's concordence) is basicly, dont try to control another person's free will, and something about someone who talks to the dead, (? still studing that part of the Old Testament)
I think it's generally rooted in the belief that the dead reside in Heaven and are therefore beyond our power to contact, it follows that whatever we manage to contact is not a dead person.

On the other hand, there are passages in the Bible forbidding magic.
Only specific forms and practises, most of which are prohibited are similarly forbidden by Wicca, the remainder are hardly a necessary part of Wicca.

Meaning no disrespect and speaking for myself, it seems that people take a cafeteria approach to the text, picking out what appeals to them and ignoring the rest.
Syncretic beliefs often appear to operate in this fashion to those who are external to the matter, hence a great deal of the derision Wicca garners from outsiders about it being neo-one-thing-or-another.

For instance, they pick the love teachings of Jesus but ignore his statements condemning homosexuals,
I suspect your taking a statement about the decadence of the Romans and turning it into a statement about homosexuality. The fact of the matter is that that particular book of the bible was written by someone, who was frankly rather naive about relationships in the first place, I severely doubt he had any concept of a loving homosexual relationship, but was instead commenting on the general decadence of the Romans.

yet still profess to be a follower of Jesus.
Following Jesus does not automatically mean agreeing with everything a disciple wrote in the Bible, unless you wish to be a Bible-literalist, but they are far from having a unique claim to Christianity.

I found it simpler to let all that go and just be a Witch. :hahugh:
It is far easier to go straight to one side or another when determining one's beliefs, this method does not however function adequately for many people, who do not, for whatever reason, choose the path of least resistance.

[adrianne]

Nice, Betah. You said pretty much what I was thinking of saying.

With Christianity, one must remember that Jesus did not personally author any of the books Himself. The main writer of the New Testament, Paul, who is the source of much of the dogma in the Bible, had never even met Jesus and in fact lived a century or so after Him.

Also, one does not have to follow every tenet in the Bible to be a Christian and a follower of Jesus. I enjoy the Bible as a source of inspiration and a tool for divination, but I don't believe that it is literal truth. I see it mostly as a group of people's concepts and experiences of the Divine. I don't have to agree with everyone about religion if I don't want to, whether they authored a holy text or not.

In some cases, yes, it would have been easier for me to give up on Christ altogether and just been fully Kemetic. But that's not what I chose, because it wouldn't have been right for me. One doesn't necessarily have to choose if they don't want to. If i had chosen one or the other, my soul would be hungry instead of full up.

[stella01904]

With Christianity, one must remember that Jesus did not personally author any of the books Himself. The main writer of the New Testament, Paul, who is the source of much of the dogma in the Bible, had never even met Jesus and in fact lived a century or so after Him.
The Gospels were supposedly written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This is where the speeches attributed to Jesus are. And the condemnation teachings are there.
Stella

[adrianne]

You're right, there are teachings of condemnation there. But as I said before, I do not believe that the Bible is a source of Divine Truth. It is a text written by men, translated and retranslated many times, and used as a tool to further more than one ruler's political agenda.

It's a book. Not the Book, but a book. I follow the teachings of Jesus, the ones that He has given to me, not the words attributed to Him by His apostles. I don't care if the Bible is supposed to be the sole source of truth for Christians. I am a Mystic Christian, given to knowing Jesus for myself, not a Bible Literalist.

[David19]

they pick the love teachings of Jesus but ignore his statements condemning homosexuals, yet still profess to be a follower of Jesus. I found it simpler to let all that go and just be a Witch. :hahugh:

BB, Stella

Since, the early Christian's did perform gay marriages, i would say that the anti-gay passages were wrote by someone with a grudge against LGBT people.

[David19]

I was talking about the Pagan practice in repressive times and places of using images of Jesus, Mary and the Saints to represent the Old Gods. It's been done everyplace from Italy to the African Diaspora. And what is so alarming about an icon with candles?

I'm not trying to be rude, as i do respect your opinion and beliefs, and while i'm not Christian, and i do know that certain religions like Vodou do use the Saint's as 'cover' for the Lwa, etc, that doesn't mean that the real Mary, Jesus, saints didn't exist, and that the real ones don't appear to people (like there are lots of sightings of the Virgin Mary, i personally believe that's the real one appearing to people (e.g. the Jewish one) and not a 'pagan' deity in 'disguise'.

And, about the article about Vialiente saying a witch has a picture of Jesus on her altar, now i didn't know Vialiente or the witch she's talking about, she does say it was on the witches 'personal altar' meaning an altar noone (except Vialiente) saw, I think that some witches may have admired Jesus, not as a 'face' for another deity, but as an actual powerful being.

I never said that 'Vialiente and Gardner were Christian's', i just said that they saw no problem with Christianity or Christian's, and i'm sure they accepted that the Christian god existed just as much as Diana exists, or Hecate or Zeus, Apollo, etc (and not just as 'faces' for 'pagan' deities).

Again, hope this wasn't rude or anything (to anyone) and also hope it made some sense :).

[stella01904]

I'm not trying to be rude, as i do respect your opinion and beliefs, and while i'm not Christian, and i do know that certain religions like Vodou do use the Saint's as 'cover' for the Lwa, etc, that doesn't mean that the real Mary, Jesus, saints didn't exist, and that the real ones don't appear to people (like there are lots of sightings of the Virgin Mary, i personally believe that's the real one appearing to people (e.g. the Jewish one) and not a 'pagan' deity in 'disguise'.I wasn't calling their existence into question, I was just saying that Witches do not venerate them, and that a Witch with Christian icons on a shrine or altar would be using them as a smokescreen for our own dieties. As Maddalena said, "I wear the medal, but I don't believe it."


And, about the article about Vialiente saying a witch has a picture of Jesus on her altar, now i didn't know Vialiente or the witch she's talking about, she does say it was on the witches 'personal altar' meaning an altar noone (except Vialiente) saw, I think that some witches may have admired Jesus, not as a 'face' for another deity, but as an actual powerful being. Wicca and Witchcraft 101. This should get you started:
http://www.earthspirit.com/fireheart/fhdv1.html

http://www.controverscial.com/Doreen%20Valiente.htm



I never said that 'Vialiente and Gardner were Christian's', i just said that they saw no problem with Christianity or Christian's, and i'm sure they accepted that the Christian god existed just as much as Diana exists, or Hecate or Zeus, Apollo, etc (and not just as 'faces' for 'pagan' deities).

Again, hope this wasn't rude or anything (to anyone) and also hope it made some sense :).
Everything anyone has concieved of exists on some level. We just don't include it in our religion.
Stella

[David19]

I wasn't calling their existence into question

Sorry, i must have misread your post (but at the time, i had just got back from holiday and was kind of tired:)).

[stella01904]

Easy to see how it happened, we all tend to say "believe in" or "don't believe in", when we should probably be saying "venerate" or "don't venerate". :)

[Betah]

Everything anyone has concieved of exists on some level. We just don't include it in our religion.
Stella
Are you still using this farcical idea that religions are discrete and indivisible?
Christianity is not a monolithic entity of shared beliefs. Fundamentalism, bible literalism and so forth are held by only a small number of denominations and all your arguments involving antagonism towards witches are founded in these particular beliefs, which are are far from universal in Christianity, indeed Valiente refers to the antagonists as "a certain element among the Christian churches" in the first of the articles you linked to.
Second, the same holds true for Wicca, which I know has its own denominations, each with varying attitudes towards the inclusion or exclusion of practises which do not draw origin from old European religions, if you could state which particular denomination you are part of, it would aid your argument greatly.

[stella01904]

Here is something interesting I ran across in John Michael Greer's Encyclopedia of the Occult (page 58) a few years ago:

"According to a variety of occult writings, not all of them by Christian occultists, the rite of baptism has significant magical effects, and those who have received it are both protected from and shut out from participation in certain magical energies connected with earth magic and the like."

Not something you want for your Witchcraft. I worried about this some, as I'd been baptised when I was young and not informed of my options. Finally I asked an Elder, and was told that a Dedication Rite to Diana is generally believed to cancel the effects of baptism. Whew!

Either religion is fine, as a stand-alone. Energetically, they don't mix.

[Lovehound]

On the other hand, there are passages in the Bible forbidding magic. Meaning no disrespect and speaking for myself, it seems that people take a cafeteria approach to the text, picking out what appeals to them and ignoring the rest. For instance, they pick the love teachings of Jesus but ignore his statements condemning homosexuals, yet still profess to be a follower of Jesus. I found it simpler to let all that go and just be a Witch.

This demonstrates a lack of knowledge of Scripture. In 4 Gospels, Jesus never mentioned a word about homosexuality. What He DID condemn was such things as injustice, lack of caring and hospitality, hypocrisy, legalism, etc.

People react with so much fear to the Bible and Christianity - and it's because of the stupid fundamentalists. And in reacting with fear to Christianity, the fundamentalists have won - they have manipulated the people into accepting their absolutist terms, instead of the person saying "Hey -- I'll set MY OWN terms on how I will interpret this, and whatever happens, it's between me and God. No one else."

I'm currently reading a book called "What The Bible Really Teaches" by Keith Ward. It's pretty good. He shows how the fundamentalists get a lot of things wrong in their Bible interpretations. He also shows where fundamentalism has its roots, which makes it easier for a person to say to a fundie "Uh, no, sorry, this fundamentalist thing is a relatively new thing. It isn't Biblical at all."

Fundamentalists need to realize that categories of orthodoxy and heresy are completely subjective, and it's about time more and more people stood up and declared this and took power back, and in so doing take it away from the fundamentalist types.

[Fire's Shadow]

Fundamentalists need to realize that categories of orthodoxy and heresy are completely subjective, and it's about time more and more people stood up and declared this and took power back, and in so doing take it away from the fundamentalist types.

I'm all for that, and I bid you good luck. :D

[stella01904]

This demonstrates a lack of knowledge of Scripture. In 4 Gospels, Jesus never mentioned a word about homosexuality. What He DID condemn was such things as injustice, lack of caring and hospitality, hypocrisy, legalism, etc. In any case, there is such a lack of solid of information on Jesus, and what there is, is so open to interpretation, that you get intolerant fundies on the one hand and this on the other:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm
Everybody has their own little agenda, for good or ill. It's like a rubber religion - which doesn't make it much of a pole star...


People react with so much fear to the Bible and Christianity - and it's because of the stupid fundamentalists. Not fear. I just don't find it, for myself, to be a workable religion. I've found something else, and what I've found works.
And in reacting with fear to Christianity, the fundamentalists have won - they have manipulated the people into accepting their absolutist terms, instead of the person saying "Hey -- I'll set MY OWN terms on how I will interpret this, and whatever happens, it's between me and God. No one else."I already set my own terms. I don't bother with it.

[Lovehound]

In any case, there is such a lack of solid of information on Jesus, and what there is, is so open to interpretation, that you get intolerant fundies on the one hand and this on the other

Yes, and here's the thing - everything in paganism is open to interpretation too.

And you get fundies even in paganism. Clearly you've never dealt with the "Puritru" have you?? The "Puritru" are Asatruar who are quite anal-retentive about doing things exactly by the historical record, and take no lessons or inspiration from other paths and other spiritual techniques.

So I've come to the conclusion that if you're going to find both of these (a heavily subjective path and fundies all around), it's a case of 6 in one, half-dozen in the other...


Everybody has their own little agenda, for good or ill. It's like a rubber religion - which doesn't make it much of a pole star...

Same can be said for 99% of Wicca any more. It's the ULTIMATE in "rubber religion" or "cafeteria religion." People don't even know what Wicca IS - it has totally lost its identity altogether because of the fact that so many people have thrown away the idea of initiation. They don't want to be challenged, they don't want to be tested (and I have to wonder how much of it is fear of failure), they don't want someone imposing a standard upon them because actually trying to live up to that standard is too much like "work" and people just don't want to do it. They're lazy.


Not fear. I just don't find it, for myself, to be a workable religion. I've found something else, and what I've found works. I already set my own terms. I don't bother with it.

Well, then so far as I'm concerned, there was no point in you responding to this thread.

[stella01904]

Yes, and here's the thing - everything in paganism is open to interpretation too.

No, not everything. We are accepting of magic, spirit communication, sexuality - it's very unambiguous.



And you get fundies even in paganism. Clearly you've never dealt with the "Puritru" have you?? The "Puritru" are Asatruar who are quite anal-retentive about doing things exactly by the historical record, and take no lessons or inspiration from other paths and other spiritual techniques. No, I haven't "dealt with" them - but how does maintaining the purity of one's path make one a fundie?

I am trying to imagine a fundie on a Northern Path - let's see, he would probably be walking around looking for a physical tree called Yggsdrasil...


Same can be said for 99% of Wicca any more. It's the ULTIMATE in "rubber religion" or "cafeteria religion."

What you speak of is not Wicca or Witchcraft. It is people CALLING themselves Wiccans or Witches - for example, "Christian Wiccans."


People don't even know what Wicca IS - it has totally lost its identity altogether because of the fact that so many people have thrown away the idea of initiation. They don't want to be challenged, they don't want to be tested (and I have to wonder how much of it is fear of failure), they don't want someone imposing a standard upon them because actually trying to live up to that standard is too much like "work" and people just don't want to do it. They're lazy.

See my comment above. People who do whatever is easy or what they feel like doing are only calling themselves Wiccans or Witches. Because it is fashionable to do this nowadays does not, however, mean that there are no more Wiccans or Witches. It just means that the idiots are louder and their pastel books take up more space at the bookstore.



Well, then so far as I'm concerned, there was no point in you responding to this thread.

Ooooooo! :lol:
If I am not mistaken, the title of the thread is "Christian Wicca: what's your view?" My view is that it is unworkable. It brings to mind a cartoonish image of a person doing a quick Dedication Rite, doing a spell, and running to the church to get re-baptised....

[David19]

Same can be said for 99% of Wicca any more. It's the ULTIMATE in "rubber religion" or "cafeteria religion." People don't even know what Wicca IS - it has totally lost its identity altogether because of the fact that so many people have thrown away the idea of initiation. They don't want to be challenged, they don't want to be tested (and I have to wonder how much of it is fear of failure), they don't want someone imposing a standard upon them because actually trying to live up to that standard is too much like "work" and people just don't want to do it. They're lazy.

That's exactly what i know a lot of Gardnerian and Alexandrian (as well as Cochrane witches) would say, as someone i talked to put it, 'Wicca is a mystery religion', to actually take part in it, you have to be initated into it (e.g. by someone who actually can trace their lineage back to Gardner, etc), but a lot of 'Wiccan's' don't want that, for some, they'd much rather be told by SRW, that 'hey, you don't have to practice skyclad (despite Gardner's belief that clothes block magical power), the scourge looks too kinky, just 'chuck' it away, etc', i think when people read books like SRW, they're reading a 'diluted' form of what Wicca was (and is?), i don't think Gardner ever wanted or desired Wicca to become 'mainstream' because it's a mystery religion, as one Cochrane witch told me, 'the myteries aren't for everyone', other religions meet other peoples spiritual needs, but, IMO, i think to take part in Wicca, you have to be willing to work hard (and try and meet a Gardnerian or Alexandrian coven), even if you leave the coven later, i'm sure you'll already know a lot and even have more magical knowledge than by just reading SRW or Fiona Horne.

[David19]

No, not everything. We are accepting of magic, spirit communication, sexuality - it's very unambiguous.[QUOTE]

Well, not every coven is, Gardner was homophobic (so were/are a lot of Gardnerian covens), and other Wiccan's (always saying 'male and female are the perfect balence', etc), then you get people who might say that they accept LGBT people 'cause gay people have 'female souls or 'energy'' (that makes you transgendered, not gay), and it just 'reinforces' a 'myth' that heterosexuality is the 'only normal' thing), and not everyone is accepting of magic, not all Wiccan's believe in magic and the ones that do will 'laugh' at anyone who has some kind of more supernatural experience (e.g. someone who says they see ghosts or demons or who can levitate (something done by Buddhist monks and Hindu sages and Christian monks and priests), and all their belief in magic is always considered 'subtle'), and not all Wiccan's believe in spirit communication (for example, there are some Wiccan's who'd 'laugh' at the idea of an afterlife, like Fiona Horne who's a commited atheist and only sees the gods as 'archetypes').

[QUOTE]No, I haven't "dealt with" them - but how does maintaining the purity of one's path make one a fundie?

I am trying to imagine a fundie on a Northern Path - let's see, he would probably be walking around looking for a physical tree called Yggsdrasil...

That would make a Heathen a 'fundie', but the ones that believe Christianity is a 'disease' or 'breeds weakness' (exactly what the Nazi's thought, should tell you something about that 'belief') or the sites that say Christianity is a 'Jewish conspriacy' (i've seen a 'Heathen' say this) or the ones that say LGBT people 'should' be killed or 'drowned' (just like they did in the ancient Norse culture).


What you speak of is not Wicca or Witchcraft. It is people CALLING themselves Wiccans or Witches - for example, "Christian Wiccans."[QUOTE]

Just like people saying they're Wiccan and never read (or even heard of) Gardner (people need to see what Gardner's Wicca actually was (and see that it didn't include books talking 'visualizing' 'white light').

[QUOTE]See my comment above. People who do whatever is easy or what they feel like doing are only calling themselves Wiccans or Witches. Because it is fashionable to do this nowadays does not, however, mean that there are no more Wiccans or Witches. It just means that the idiots are louder and their pastel books take up more space at the bookstore.

If I am not mistaken, the title of the thread is "Christian Wicca: what's your view?" My view is that it is unworkable. It brings to mind a cartoonish image of a person doing a quick Dedication Rite, doing a spell, and running to the church to get re-baptised.

I see no problem with a Wiccan 'using' Christian deities, because, if they can 'use' deities from other pantheons, why not a Christian one (people say Christianity is 'opposed' to witchcraft, but then so was Ancient Greece and Rome, they had laws against it and witches were seen as 'evil', does this mean Wiccan's should avoid Greek deities, in the Norse culture, witches were also seen as 'evil' (or at least to be avoided and seen only as a last resort), Norse witches were usually pushed to the sidelines, i think, the 'classic hermit' that lived on the bounds of society and thought of as a 'bit mad', i think, does this mean that Wiccan's should avoid Norse deities, etc).

You run across the same problem with every culture or religion, and if you're going to overlook it for one (say, Ancient Greece, etc), why not Christianity. People mention the 'Old Gods' but i find it amusing that the 'Old gods' are any god that wasn't Christian (I'd have though Yahweh was pretty old, though, and Judaism can be traced to Sumeria and the Sumerian religion (Abraham was an Akkadian who worshipped the Sumerian gods).

BTW, my post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, more to people (Wiccan or not) in general.

[stella01904]

Well, not every coven is, Gardner was homophobic (so were/are a lot of Gardnerian covens),What personal problems Gardner may or may not have had do not define the religion.
and other Wiccan's (always saying 'male and female are the perfect balence', etc), The perfect balance within oneself. Balancing the male and female currents in YOURSELF is the goal.
then you get people who might say that they accept LGBT people 'cause gay people have 'female souls or 'energy'' (that makes you transgendered, not gay), and it just 'reinforces' a 'myth' that heterosexuality is the 'only normal' thing), and not everyone is accepting of magic, not all Wiccan's believe in magic and the ones that do will 'laugh' at anyone who has some kind of more supernatural experience (e.g. someone who says they see ghosts or demons or who can levitate (something done by Buddhist monks and Hindu sages and Christian monks and priests), and all their belief in magic is always considered 'subtle'), and not all Wiccan's believe in spirit communication (for example, there are some Wiccan's who'd 'laugh' at the idea of an afterlife, like Fiona Horne who's a commited atheist and only sees the gods as 'archetypes').Sounds like the aforementioned "people calling themselves Witches and Wiccans."

I haven't read Fiona Horne (her books look "pop" - I try to stay with the classics) - does she SAY she is an atheist or do you INFER that because the says the Gods are archetypes? Archetypes are powerful and very real, more real than the chair you are sitting on.

That would make a Heathen a 'fundie', but the ones that believe Christianity is a 'disease' or 'breeds weakness' (exactly what the Nazi's thought, should tell you something about that 'belief') or the sites that say Christianity is a 'Jewish conspriacy' (i've seen a 'Heathen' say this) or the ones that say LGBT people 'should' be killed or 'drowned' (just like they did in the ancient Norse culture).Those are supremacists. BTW, Asatru doesn't have the market cornered on that. The KKK uses Christianity.

Just like people saying they're Wiccan and never read (or even heard of) Gardner (people need to see what Gardner's Wicca actually was (and see that it didn't include books talking 'visualizing' 'white light'). Exactly. Gardnerian Wicca may not be the whole show, but it's required reading.
I see no problem with a Wiccan 'using' Christian deities, because, if they can 'use' deities from other pantheons, why not a Christian one (people say Christianity is 'opposed' to witchcraft, but then so was Ancient Greece and Rome, they had laws against it and witches were seen as 'evil', does this mean Wiccan's should avoid Greek deities,
The main Witch Goddess in Greece is Hecate. She was demonised over time. Witchcraft went underground.
(Recommended reading: The Rotting Goddess by Jacob Rabinowitz.)
This is what happened all over Europe, for instance in Rome the Gods of Olympus became the official state religion, but country dwellers continued to venerate the older God forms. The word "pagan" itself comes from paganus, meaning "country dweller". Witchcraft became an "illicit religion" in the eyes of the state, and was demonised. Probably because the country folks venerating the Old Gods didn't maintain temples and the state couldn't make any money off of their religion. The word "heathen" means a "dweller of the heaths", doesn't it? So you see something similar taking place in the north. But back to what we were talking about, the "Ancient Greece and Rome" you speak of that saw Witchcraft as evil was composed of rulers and city-dwellers - who later became Christians, and continued with the same BS. Hecate and Diana are the ultimate Witch Goddesses. Of course the state didn't like them!

in the Norse culture, witches were also seen as 'evil' (or at least to be avoided and seen only as a last resort), Norse witches were usually pushed to the sidelines, i think, the 'classic hermit' that lived on the bounds of society and thought of as a 'bit mad', Aren't all Shamans and Witches?
i think, does this mean that Wiccan's should avoid Norse deities, etc).Why would Wiccans want to avoid Norse Dieties? It is a Pagan Path.

You run across the same problem with every culture or religion, and if you're going to overlook it for one (say, Ancient Greece, etc), why not Christianity. People mention the 'Old Gods' but i find it amusing that the 'Old gods' are any god that wasn't Christian (I'd have though Yahweh was pretty old, though, and Judaism can be traced to Sumeria and the Sumerian religion (Abraham was an Akkadian who worshipped the Sumerian gods).You don't know what people mean by "Old Gods"?:eek: They mean their OWN Old Gods, the natural, native gods that their ancestors worshipped since the dawn of their culture. Until someone came along and started shoving Christianity down everyone's throat.
Stella

[Lovehound]

As far as Fiona Horne being an atheist goes, check out these comments by her and about her on the Wicca For The Rest Of Us site:


Think that Fiona wrote her books because she was inspired to share her love of the Craft as a lifelong exploration with others? Think again. In her own words: “You know I respect the fact that people enjoy my books but I don't enjoy writing them. Like it's not something I do because I'm passionately driven to do it ….I'm over it.”

Most shocking of all are Fiona’s beliefs about the God and Goddess, which flies in the face of generally accepted Wiccan beliefs.

“In the book I actually mention how I'm atheist in a sense, I don't believe that the God and Goddesses exist in their own right.”

To clear away any idea that she might have simply misspoken herself, Fiona reinforces her atheism in her books and interviews. “You don't even have to believe in the Goddess to be Wiccan. ‘Gods are like mirrors. They show us ourselves. That's why we create them.’”

Look under "Essays" on that site to read the whole article about her.

[David19]

You don't know what people mean by "Old Gods"?:eek: They mean their OWN Old Gods, the natural, native gods that their ancestors worshipped since the dawn of their culture. Until someone came along and started shoving Christianity down everyone's throat.
Stella

I agree with, mostly, with the rest of your post 'cause you made some good points and also answered some questions for me, but i don't agree with 'their own old gods, native gods that their ancestors worshipped', because that, to me, gets into the 'folkish' arguement and basically saying that people should stick to their 'own' culture (which kind of, indirectly or directly, 'blocks' people of different cultures and ethnic groups out of a particular religion e.g. if someone of African, Asian or Jewish ancestry might get, indirectly, 'pushed' out of an Asatru group (or Hellenic group, Kemetic, etc)), i also don't see people's ancestry as having much to do with religion or deities because religions go 'deeper' than blood (i don't see Asatru as being the 'best' for all Northern European's, or Celtic reconstructionism as being 'good' for all Celt's (like my dad and his family are Irish but they're perfectly happy being Catholic, etc).

Plus all religions have been 'forced' down people's throats (e.g. Roman's forced the their religion on the Jew's and killed them for not worshipping the emperor or their gods, they did the same with the Norse too).

[stella01904]

As far as Fiona Horne being an atheist goes, check out these comments by her and about her on the Wicca For The Rest Of Us site:
I've been to "Wicca For The Rest Of Us". Basically, I think the site stinks. They are very quick to run down the Elders there (for example, throwing bones at Laurie Cabot for always appearing in ritual robes without bothering to find out WHY she does this.) Bunch of loudmouth people who don't KNOW much. A wannabe's pajama party.


Look under "Essays" on that site to read the whole article about her.
Ack, go back to WFTROU? :sick: Okay, but just for a few minutes.....

Okay, I'm back. They put a stuffed bunny by the essay about her. What this means: Someone there doesn't like her. That could be a badge of honor...
A hatchet job from a disreputable website really doesn't tell us much.

[stella01904]

I agree with, mostly, with the rest of your post 'cause you made some good points and also answered some questions for me, but i don't agree with 'their own old gods, native gods that their ancestors worshipped', because that, to me, gets into the 'folkish' arguement and basically saying that people should stick to their 'own' culture
Nope, nowhere did anybody say anyone had to stick with their own culture. I was explaining where the expression came from.

[David19]

Nope, nowhere did anybody say anyone had to stick with their own culture. I was explaining where the expression came from.

Ok thanks for clearing that up for me, i guess you learn something new everyday, but, i still think the person who came up with the 'Old Gods' concept wasn't exactly a 'smart' person.

[Betah]

Not fear. I just don't find it, for myself, to be a workable religion. I've found something else, and what I've found works. I already set my own terms. I don't bother with it.
But, you do bother people by declaring your claimed apathy towards it, with such force and furor that it seems far less like an apathy and more like antipathy, which does rather destroy the point of this statement doesn't it?

No, not everything. We are accepting of magic, spirit communication, sexuality - it's very unambiguous.
I could say the same of certain beliefs in Christianity, I'd be wrong, but that's how absolute statements tend to work out.

No, I haven't "dealt with" them - but how does maintaining the purity of one's path make one a fundie?
The thing that makes a fundamentalist is the attempt to do exactly that, regardless of their original religon.

What you speak of is not Wicca or Witchcraft. It is people CALLING themselves Wiccans or Witches - for example, "Christian Wiccans."
Religious designators are not generally chosen to make oneself distinct from another of extremely similar beliefs, but in fact they are usually chosen to make said similarity clear, this is in large part because there exists no binary operator that distinguishes if a religion is either part of another or not. This is a result of the paths between religions being continuous (non-distinct). While you can draw a line between 2 religions and say that one ends there and the other beings there said line is arbitrary, inabsolute and meaningless in itself.

If I am not mistaken, the title of the thread is "Christian Wicca: what's your view?" My view is that it is unworkable. It brings to mind a cartoonish image of a person doing a quick Dedication Rite, doing a spell, and running to the church to get re-baptised....
Normally it would only be a blessing and that assumes that the person believes a sin is committed, which you must admit seems a trifle unlikely, given how the only people who would enter such a path would probably be from a non-fundamentalist church, so will not consider anything and everything a sin.

Until someone came along and started shoving Christianity down everyone's throat.
The evidence shows that in several countries Christianity took over by the consent of the populace, not least due to some of the practises of the local religions. There is very little evidence of any serious effort to remove other religions until the rise of the Roman church, which is notably not the form of Christianity that first took prevalence in Britain (where Wicca was founded).

[stella01904]

As far as Fiona Horne being an atheist goes, check out these comments by her and about her on the Wicca For The Rest Of Us site:



Look under "Essays" on that site to read the whole article about her.
It is possible that Fiona is referring to the egregore concept:
"Egregores are what some occultists call divine thought-forms. An egregore is composed of both human and divine energy joining together to create a diety form.
...The Old Ways tell us that the gods need us as much as we need them. They are maintained by our rituals, providing them nourishment and energy, and by our conscious imagery that maintains their astral connection to us as well as their own source.
...It is important to understand that not all gods and goddesses are egregores. The Great God and Goddess have always existed as the Source of All Things prior to the appearance of humankind. These forms are the Archetypes, while the egregores are their children."
-Raven Grimassi, Wiccan Magick, p. 92-94
(This also makes the point that a person who sees the Ultimate Divine as an archetype is not an atheist.)

The Hindus have something very similar:
"Brahman, Existence - Knowledge - Bliss Absolute," Ramakrishna continued, "Is like a shoreless ocean. In the ocean visible blocks of ice are formed here and there by intense cold. Similarly, under the cooling influence, so to speak, of the devotion (bhakti) of its worshippers, the Infinite transforms itself into the finite and appears before the worshipper as God with form."
-Joseph Campbell, The Inner Reaches of Outer Space, p. 69

As I've stated before, I am not familiar with Fiona Horne's writings. It is possible that she is knowledgeable, and was taken out of context, or it is possible that she is the Britney Spears of the Craft. I will keep an eye out at the bookstore, I am not going to go by what they say at Wicca For The Rest Of Us. I wouldn't be surprised if that site put up an essay saying Ray Buckland trades food stamps for crack.
BB, Stella

[stella01904]

Ok thanks for clearing that up for me, i guess you learn something new everyday, but, i still think the person who came up with the 'Old Gods' concept wasn't exactly a 'smart' person.I couldn't tell you if they were smart or not. It's an old expression that would have come into usage by locals. No one was jetting all over the place or going on the internet, people normally tended to stay put. If used in Italy, it would have been understood as referring to Diana, Dianus, etc. In Mexico, it would have been understood as referring to Quetzacoatl, Tonantzin, etc.

[David19]

It is possible that Fiona is referring to the egregore concept:
"Egregores are what some occultists call divine thought-forms. An egregore is composed of both human and divine energy joining together to create a diety form.
...The Old Ways tell us that the gods need us as much as we need them. They are maintained by our rituals, providing them nourishment and energy, and by our conscious imagery that maintains their astral connection to us as well as their own source.
...It is important to understand that not all gods and goddesses are egregores. The Great God and Goddess have always existed as the Source of All Things prior to the appearance of humankind. These forms are the Archetypes, while the egregores are their children."
-Raven Grimassi, Wiccan Magick, p. 92-94
(This also makes the point that a person who sees the Ultimate Divine as an archetype is not an atheist.)

I guess that's fine to believe and people have the right to believe that the gods are 'thought forms' but i don't think that's what Fiona Horne believes (she just believes that they are 'created' by humans).

For me, while Grimassi does seem to know a lot, i don't believe that the gods 'need' us, i agree much more with Sumerian, Babylonian and Aztec beliefs about the gods (that they are older than humanity, have their own desires/motivations/plans away from humans and this realm e.g. if this world suddenly 'blew up', the gods wouldn't 'go away' (some may mourn for humans, but i don't think they would 'disappear' or 'starve').

But thanks for providing that information :).

[stella01904]

I guess that's fine to believe and people have the right to believe that the gods are 'thought forms' but i don't think that's what Fiona Horne believes (she just believes that they are 'created' by humans). Read the quotes again. Gods with form are thought-forms. They are animated with Divine Energy. It's a joint project. ;)


For me, while Grimassi does seem to know a lot, i don't believe that the gods 'need' us, i agree much more with Sumerian, Babylonian and Aztec beliefs about the gods (that they are older than humanity, have their own desires/motivations/plans away from humans and this realm e.g. if this world suddenly 'blew up', the gods wouldn't 'go away' (some may mourn for humans, but i don't think they would 'disappear' or 'starve').The egregores would not "go away", they would "go to sleep". If a culture somehow came along at a later date and started worshipping them, they would awaken. This is a very basic Craft belief. Wicca & Witchcraft 101. Sumerians, Babylonians, and Aztecs may have some practices similar to ours, but they are not Witches.

The Great Goddess and God, or the male and female polarites of that which cannot be reached with thought, would not go to sleep.

But thanks for providing that information :).
Not a problem!
BB, Stella

[Lunar_Dragonfly]

I used to be into that. I wanted to be a Christian witch after I read Narnia and thought "Aslan is coooool Jesus must be cool too!" But there were too many principles I didn't believe in. Same with wicca, really, which is funny because in attempting to be both a Christian and a Wiccan, I discovered that I'm not really a Christian or a Wiccan.

Good news, Daddy. I'm not a witch anymore! I'm a heathen! :viking:

[stella01904]

Good news, Daddy. I'm not a witch anymore! I'm a heathen! :viking:
:lol: Always best to actually look into something before taking it on!

[Lovehound]

I've been to "Wicca For The Rest Of Us". Basically, I think the site stinks. They are very quick to run down the Elders there (for example, throwing bones at Laurie Cabot for always appearing in ritual robes without bothering to find out WHY she does this.) Bunch of loudmouth people who don't KNOW much. A wannabe's pajama party.

Ack, go back to WFTROU? :sick: Okay, but just for a few minutes.....

Okay, I'm back. They put a stuffed bunny by the essay about her. What this means: Someone there doesn't like her. That could be a badge of honor...
A hatchet job from a disreputable website really doesn't tell us much.

You know, Stella, you just don't WANT anything I say to be right, so you're going to naysay everything I say to you.

So I don't want to talk to you any more. And I don't want you responding to any of my posts. If I could possibly block you, I would.

I really don't like you at all.

And I'm not the only one. You do get on people's nerves.

[Lovehound]

Okay, I'm back. They put a stuffed bunny by the essay about her. What this means: Someone there doesn't like her. That could be a badge of honor...

A hatchet job from a disreputable website really doesn't tell us much.

Well, just for the record, and for the benefit of anyone else reading this, the writer of that article did cite references. And they are direct quotes from Fiona herself.

Just because Stella chose to ignore the sources cited doesn't mean everyone else should ignore them.

Fiona is really an atheist AND a product of a management company. She's no real witch or Wiccan at all. She has said she doesn't believe in God and Goddess. Period.

You must be a fluffy yourself if you're not liking what you see there. You must feel attacked by it and that's why you automatically diss it.

Like I said, I'm not the only person out here on MW whose nerves you get on. I'm just the only one willing to TELL YOU that you're quite annoying and I find you shallow and non-thoughtful about your path. Too quick to dismiss things that disrupt your nice, neat little worldview.

Just for the record, I couldn't care less about acquiring karma points or whatever. I don't care about even being kicked off the board if I'm not "nicey-nice" to someone who is Captain Irritating. It's just a bloody message board online.

What I care about is spiritual growth and learning.

[Sage Rainsong]

Whether Fiona Horne is an atheist or not I just don't like her. I saw her on that horrible show called Mad Mad House and she came off rather snobby and rude. Of course, so did everyone else. I also find her books tacky and shallow but thats just me. Anyway back to the question I can see Christian Witchcraft but not Christian Wicca because I find deep theological differences. However just because I can't see it doesn't mean that I wouldn't respect Christian Wiccans. Everyone as the right to believe what they want to.

[Morr]

Well, just for the record, and for the benefit of anyone else reading this, the writer of that article did cite references. And they are direct quotes from Fiona herself.

Just because Stella chose to ignore the sources cited doesn't mean everyone else should ignore them.

Fiona is really an atheist AND a product of a management company. She's no real witch or Wiccan at all. She has said she doesn't believe in God and Goddess. Period.

You must be a fluffy yourself if you're not liking what you see there. You must feel attacked by it and that's why you automatically diss it.

Like I said, I'm not the only person out here on MW whose nerves you get on. I'm just the only one willing to TELL YOU that you're quite annoying and I find you shallow and non-thoughtful about your path. Too quick to dismiss things that disrupt your nice, neat little worldview.

Just for the record, I couldn't care less about acquiring karma points or whatever. I don't care about even being kicked off the board if I'm not "nicey-nice" to someone who is Captain Irritating. It's just a bloody message board online.

What I care about is spiritual growth and learning.

Admin Mode

I know you dont "care" and that its just a "bloody message board" but as long as you are part of it, you WILL act according to the rule here -- Respect.

[mol]

You know, Stella, you just don't WANT anything I say to be right, so you're going to naysay everything I say to you.

So I don't want to talk to you any more. And I don't want you responding to any of my posts. If I could possibly block you, I would.

I really don't like you at all.

And I'm not the only one. You do get on people's nerves.
MOL MODE

Actually, you can do just that. You can block her. It's called our ignore feature. Use it instead of attacking another member. CLick the link below to ignore.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=16169

You can do that with anyone by viewing their profile and clicking on the 'add to ignore list' link.

[Sage Rainsong]

I forgot to mention that Fiona Horne does make reference to her atheism not so much in her books (to my knowledge), but on Mad Mad house. It is possible that she was talking about them as Archetypes but I can see where her comments can be misconstrued. She says something like, "I don't believe in Gods and Goddesses and in that sense I am an atheist. We create them because they are mirrors of ourselves." Really that sentece can go either way. She didn't give much clairification.

[Lovehound]

MOL MODE

Actually, you can do just that. You can block her. It's called our ignore feature. Use it instead of attacking another member. CLick the link below to ignore.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=16169

You can do that with anyone by viewing their profile and clicking on the 'add to ignore list' link.

Good. I have done it. This makes me very happy. I'd never heard of being able to block people on a board, only on blogs.

[Lovehound]

I forgot to mention that Fiona Horne does make reference to her atheism not so much in her books (to my knowledge), but on Mad Mad house. It is possible that she was talking about them as Archetypes but I can see where her comments can be misconstrued. She says something like, "I don't believe in Gods and Goddesses and in that sense I am an atheist. We create them because they are mirrors of ourselves." Really that sentece can go either way. She didn't give much clairification.

Well, I have to admit that someone I know at the local Unitarian church is a pagan atheist. He does think that quantum physics is basically G-d and he thinks of all the deities as archetypes or euhemerized energies.

Me, I don't get that. If one is going to be an atheist, be an atheist.

[Meryln2k]

Ok I put down "other" on the poll, since I consider myself a Christo-Pagan, something along the lines of the old Ordo Arcanorum Gradalis. I consider Jesus to have been one of a long line of dying and rising gods and his Mother Mary, to be an avatar of the Goddess. However I feel a strong connection to some of the old Gods such as the Green Man and Lord herne.

Having said all that, I believe that I am probably becoming more and more Pagan as time goes on and it is entirely possible that I will drop the Christian part.

I also practice the Craft and wear a Pentacle in honour of the Lady but I don't completely identify as a Wiccan and won't until I am sure that is my path. :viking:

[stella01904]

Well, I have to admit that someone I know at the local Unitarian church is a pagan atheist. He does think that quantum physics is basically G-d and he thinks of all the deities as archetypes or euhemerized energies.

Me, I don't get that. If one is going to be an atheist, be an atheist.He's not an atheist, he just hasn't figured that out yet. :lol:

[BeachWitch]

Here is something interesting I ran across in John Michael Greer's Encyclopedia of the Occult (page 58) a few years ago:

"According to a variety of occult writings, not all of them by Christian occultists, the rite of baptism has significant magical effects, and those who have received it are both protected from and shut out from participation in certain magical energies connected with earth magic and the like."

Not something you want for your Witchcraft. I worried about this some, as I'd been baptised when I was young and not informed of my options. Finally I asked an Elder, and was told that a Dedication Rite to Diana is generally believed to cancel the effects of baptism. Whew!

Either religion is fine, as a stand-alone. Energetically, they don't mix.

I really love being the exception which proves the rule. I was raised in a "witch" home by Irish Catholic family who immigrated to the US in the 1960's. I was babtised at birth, my Irish Catholic Witch Grandmother held me and my Irish Catholic Masonic Grandfather placed his hands over my head. This ritual was repeated for each child baptised.

I have been unbelieveably successful at magic, god/goddess veneration and I have absolutely no problem mixing energy. None of us who were baptised have had any limitation on our psychic gifts or our gift for herbal healing.

As for not energetically mixing, well they don't mix FOR YOU. And that's perfect, because each witch needs to find his/her unique path.

However, if you are going to bring veneration into the conversation, there is no way your/the author's argument can stand because veneration among Catholics and a great majority of Protestant Christians is part and parcel to their faith. As was stated earlier, Wicca is the veneration of god/goddess, so Energetically they can mix quite effectively. It takes alot of reading, and not the kind of reading done from a google search bar.

The cranky old witch has returned. Mol will be so..... pleased.

[stella01904]

I really love being the exception which proves the rule. I was raised in a "witch" home by Irish Catholic family who immigrated to the US in the 1960's. I was babtised at birth, my Irish Catholic Witch Grandmother held me and my Irish Catholic Masonic Grandfather placed his hands over my head. This ritual was repeated for each child baptised.I once saw a t-shirt that said something to the effect that the Luck Of The Irish applies only to the Irish and Murphy's Law applies to everybody else.

The Creator may well have different rules for the Irish, LOL.
BB, Stella

[JadeEmerald]

I only say that I am technically a Christian Witch because my background of CHristianity is hard to leave behind without being afraid. Many years of Christian fear has been beaten into my head...."Thou shalt have no other gods before me" makes me think I'm going "To hell" if I think God has more personages than just the Holy Trinity. SO, more or less I still have some beliefs left over from Christianity, but I am more Pagan than anything...

[nightchild]

not really sure how that would work but i am a newbie to this. my question is if you are christian but you believe in wicca how can you be both? i know in christianity God said thou shalt have no other gods before me, so how does that work? That is what i am struggling with right now because i was raised christian but yet i keep being drawn here so any suggestions would help.

[Twinkle]

not really sure how that would work but i am a newbie to this. my question is if you are christian but you believe in wicca how can you be both? i know in christianity God said thou shalt have no other gods before me, so how does that work? That is what i am struggling with right now because i was raised christian but yet i keep being drawn here so any suggestions would help.


Hot subject. Here's my opinion...keep in mind it's just my opinion.

Christianity and paganism are opposites. You cannot be a Christian and a Wiccan at the same time. There is no crossover.

[Fiamma]

I really love being the exception which proves the rule. I was raised in a "witch" home by Irish Catholic family who immigrated to the US in the 1960's. I was babtised at birth, my Irish Catholic Witch Grandmother held me and my Irish Catholic Masonic Grandfather placed his hands over my head. This ritual was repeated for each child baptised.

I have been unbelieveably successful at magic, god/goddess veneration and I have absolutely no problem mixing energy. None of us who were baptised have had any limitation on our psychic gifts or our gift for herbal healing.

As for not energetically mixing, well they don't mix FOR YOU. And that's perfect, because each witch needs to find his/her unique path.

However, if you are going to bring veneration into the conversation, there is no way your/the author's argument can stand because veneration among Catholics and a great majority of Protestant Christians is part and parcel to their faith. As was stated earlier, Wicca is the veneration of god/goddess, so Energetically they can mix quite effectively. It takes alot of reading, and not the kind of reading done from a google search bar.

The cranky old witch has returned. Mol will be so..... pleased.


yes, but was that "witch" or "wiccan"?

I can see Irish Catholic whatever else you are Witch.

Wicca on the other hand is a specific religion, as is Christianity. Wicca has the god and the goddess, christianity has one god that claims to be the only god.(debates of the trinity aside) to call it "Chrisitan Wicca" is oxymoronic. If you somehow find a way to mix Christianity and Wicca...it's not going to be Christian Wicca, it's going to be somehting else, not Christianity and not Wicca, and therefore deserving of a different name.

[dragoncrone]

IMHO -- it never fails to interest me when someone says they are a 'Christian Witch' , or goes to the 'First Church of Wicca,' or is a 'Christian Muslim' or belongs to 'Jews For Jesus.'
Theologically and/or psychologically, it tells me that they were likely raised in one faith, about which they have some serious deep-seated doubts and curiousities. Meanwhile they get exposed to the second faith/religion, just enough to pique their interest so that they entertain the notion that it might be the one they can ultimately follow.
They lack the 100% conviction it takes to commit to either path, so they straddle the socio-political fence by joining a sect that saves them from having to make a decision. :whatmewor :hmmmmm: ...just sayin'...



Off topic:
I once saw a t-shirt that said something to the effect that the Luck Of The Irish applies only to the Irish and Murphy's Law applies to everybody else.
One of my best friends is Irish, and outside of Wicca she is the most Pagan person I know, LOL!!
There are two cultures in which Pagan themes not only never disappeared too far below the surface, but also Xtianity never took that firm a hold: Ireland and Russia.

[Xirian]

Hot subject. Here's my opinion...keep in mind it's just my opinion.

Christianity and paganism are opposites. You cannot be a Christian and a Wiccan at the same time. There is no crossover.
There are many historical indications that this is not the case. Many of the icons, symbols and words used in Christianity are thought to have been taken from ancient pagan cultures. Like the word "amen" and the obelisks that are sprinkled all over Vatican City. These are not just coincidences in my opinion.

The doctrines may be different, but the purpose of Christianity and paganism are very similar. They may not be the same path, but I believe they are intended to lead to the same place. A spiritual connection with something greater than you.

Of course, these are just my opinions as well.

[Xirian]

There are many historical indications that this is not the case. Many of the icons, symbols and words used in Christianity are thought to have been taken from ancient pagan cultures. Like the word "amen" and the obelisks that are sprinkled all over Vatican City. These are not just coincidences in my opinion.

The doctrines may be different, but the purpose of Christianity and paganism are very similar. They may not be the same path, but I believe they are intended to lead to the same place. A spiritual connection with something greater than you.

Of course, these are just my opinions as well.

Here is something that sort of goes along with what I was saying above:

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/starfire3.html

It's an article about the archeological finds that connect Christianity with what were thought to be pagan cultures of the time, namely Egyptian culture.

I was just thinking last night, that the entire time the Israelites were in Egypt before they went on their forty year journey in the wilderness in search of the promiseland, they had to have adapted to many of the egyptian ways. Many were there as slaves for over half their lives. They had to have taken many egyptian practices, words, etc... with them as that is what they knew.

In my mind, the connection between the Old Testament and pagan religions of that time, are clearly evident. I think it could stand to reason that people can be Christian and Wiccan at the same time. I mean really, Wiccans have taken ideas from many different pagan cultures and made it into their own relgion. Just as the Christians did. I feel there is a connection whether anyone wants to believe it or not.

Here are some other interesting links as well:

Ancient Egypt and Biblical Similarities (http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/egypt-bible-similarities.html)

New Advent, Catholic Encyclopedia - Amen (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01407b.htm)

Q: The word "amen" appears to be of pagan origin. (http://www.thercg.org/questions/p028.a.html)

Forms of Amen-Ra (http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/amen.html)

[pellegrina]

Believe it or not, I just read all 35 pages. I'm kind of floored by all the hostility; I really don't get it.

I'm a Christian Wiccan, meaning that I worship the Lord, the Lady, and Jesus within the framework of Wiccan belief and ritual.

I guess my background helped in integrating the two religions into a meaningful personal path. I was raised Catholic by very liberal parents....easy on the sin, heavy on Jesus as Friend. Then for many years I rejected everything and considered myself an atheist. I figured there was no way all the world's religions could be right, so they must all be wrong. But around 15 years ago I read a book that reawakened me--A Return to Love by Marianne Williamson, which reintroduced me to Jesus and led me into a serious decade-long study of various New Age spiritualities. All the while I felt like Jesus was with me, encouraging me in my explorations. I had several powerful experiences during prayer in which I literally felt Jesus' love within me. But everytime I set foot in a Christian church it felt wrong, wrong, wrong. I didn't belong there, I wasn't like them, I didn't believe what they believed about salvation, sin and hell. And I knew I could never go back to the dogma of the Catholic church, even though I had always loved the trappings of prayer and ritual. During this time I read voraciously about the various forms of Christianity (yes there is more than one, several are quite progressive), and became increasingly focused on what Jesus actually taught...what was he trying to say within the context of his times?

About 7 years ago, I joined a Unitarian Universalist church, and I'm still a member, but that wasn't quite right either. They're mainly intellectual humanists and atheists who are unwittingly condescending toward my faith in a higher power. Our minister is a liberal Christian (yes there is such a thing) but due to the demands of the congregation, services tend to be focused on intellectual ideas rather than spirituality. I was still thirsting for a personal religious practice.

Then two years ago I discovered Tarot (now a huge passion) which in turn led me to Wicca. I had always assumed it was an initiatory religion mainly about withcraft (which is not really my thing), but I was lucky in that the first couple books I happened to pick up were by Phyllis Curott and Dianne Sylvan, respectively, which showed me a way to practice on my own. (Honestly if the first book I picked up was by Gardner, I probably wouldn't be here.) I'm still reading and learning constantly, both about Wicca and Christianity.

My first solitary ritual, on Imbolc 2005, was a profoundly powerful experience for me. It immediately felt right. I knew I'd found my path. I self-initiated on Imbolc 2006, dedicating myself to the Lord and Lady, who I see as two aspects of the One. I don't understand the nature of Deity and I don't pretend to...my current belief is that the Divine is intelligent, loving and permeates all things. I think that humans through the ages have personified the unknowable in order to commune with it, and that includes all the ancient pantheons as well as the God of the Abrahamic religion. They're all different ways of trying to understand the One Big Thing.

I was mistaken all those years ago--it's not that all the world's religions are wrong, it's that they're all right. Those of us with a spiritual bent are all just trying to worship as best we can, in a way that has personal meaning for us. It's the connection with the Divine that matters, not how you get there.

Why do I feel the need to be both Wiccan and Christian? Because that's what is the most personally meaningful to me. Jesus has been my friend my whole life...to me he's the shining example of what we humans are capable of. Why should I turn my back on Him simply because I can't accept the dogma of the Christian church? He's never turned His back on me. It's not His dogma after all; that's not what He was about.

I know this was long-winded, but reading through the posts, it seemed to me that there wasn't a whole lot of understanding about why someone would choose this path. I didn't come to my beliefs out of ignorance or fear, but after half a lifetime of thoughtful study, seeking and prayer.

[lonewriter]

I am a Cristian and a Wicca. I don't see any conflicts between the two because there is a distinction in believing in God-Jesus and the Bible-Church. The Bible was written by man and it was translated so many times, who know what is true and what isn't in the Bible.

[Twinkle]

See...and I get that...but how do you get past the whole Abrahamic vs. non-Abrahamic God thing?

[lonewriter]

I just do. I really can't explain it. For instance, I believe that God gave me my psychic abilities for a reason. I don't need the Church telling me they are evil.

[Twinkle]

I just do. I really can't explain it. For instance, I believe that God gave me my psychic abilities for a reason. I don't need the Church telling me they are evil.

I don't know that the Church would. For example, Joseph (as in the coat of many colors) had the ability to interpret dreams. There's Biblical "evidence" of such...as there is out of body experiences and Divine possession.

There's a huge difference in being gifted by God and worshipping the Abrahamic God along with the non Abrahamic god and goddess.

[Twinkle]

And for the record...I'm not trying to put you down or make you feel like what you believe is bogus...

But I do believe that there is a contradiction at the very core of this...and your response of "I just do" doesn't really make it any clearer.

I'm sorry.

[Twinkle]

Maybe it would be less offensive if you knew that early on in my pagan path I was also a Christian Wiccan.

I found no peace...I was constantly torn between my God and paganism....I found that I could not reconcile the two...and it was spiritually tearing me apart.

[pellegrina]

For me, it's not either/or. I don't see the Abrahamic God as any different from the non-Abrahamic God/Gods/Goddesses. The labels are different. The perception is different. The differing perceptions have led to differing teachings and belief systems. But they're all pointing to the same One Big Thing.

Pagans polytheists, panentheists, and progressive Christians have more in common with each other than either group does with atheists, who don't believe in anything spiritual at all. Christian Wicca is a way to build on the common ground.

[LostSheep]

hello, hope you don't mind me interrupting, I've been thinking about the question of God, and i think I've decided that i kind of see the Old Testament - where the God there is most conspicuously the 'no other god but me', smiting anyone he diagrees with, kind of God - the thing that put me off (mainstream, organised) Christianity - as providing the background for the time when Jesus was teaching; the Old Testament God was appropriate for the situation that Israel and the Judaic tribes were in at the time those books were written, and they were written when the Jewish people were pretty much in a state of siege and/or constantly at war with everyone around them. So they saw God, at that time, as being on their side and against everyone else - giving the moral support to help them survive. Which, i think, is how most people who do have some sort of God or Goddess see them, really, isn't it? As a reassurance, a moral support? It's just that the O.T. was written at a particular time, by a particular people who needed to see God as helping them in the way that he's presented. But by Jesus's time, the view of God, and the view that Jesus had of God, was a different one, not so harsh and arbitary, so i don't think the Old Testament kind of God has to be an obstacle to following the teachings of Jesus, even if you have a different view of God, or the Gods and Goddesses, whatever they may be.

Ok, sorry to interrupt, back in my box. _inabox_

[LostSheep]

Incidentally, to answer the question, I'm not a Wiccan, nor really, because of my views of God as outlined above, would most Christians think of me as a Christian, i guess i'd say I have a earth-centred view of what people call "God" and/or Goddess, but i have been taking more of an interest in what Jesus was really about lately.

[Cyzarine]

Good point you made there. That is what turns a lot of people off about Christianity. IMHO I think that part is more human driven then anything else. I don't think God was or is a jealous God. If he was wouldn't he be giving us hell for even thinking, yet alone honoring other gods? I believe that when man wrote that part of the Bible they added those overtones to keep people in order. By writing it a certain way the believers where forced to act a certain way. By acting in a certain way it gave the leaders and easier job of attending to other things. That's just my opinion though.

[stella01904]

hello, hope you don't mind me interrupting, I've been thinking about the question of God, and i think I've decided that i kind of see the Old Testament - where the God there is most conspicuously the 'no other god but me', smiting anyone he diagrees with, kind of God - the thing that put me off (mainstream, organised) Christianity - as providing the background for the time when Jesus was teaching; the Old Testament God was appropriate for the situation that Israel and the Judaic tribes were in at the time those books were written, and they were written when the Jewish people were pretty much in a state of siege and/or constantly at war with everyone around them. So they saw God, at that time, as being on their side and against everyone else - giving the moral support to help them survive.
Joe Campbell said that's what defines a tribal god, and that the trouble with Yawveh is that he thought he was the whole show.

[~Belladonna~]

I totally believe Christian-Witchcraft is doable but I'm not too sure about Christian-Wicca as they're two seperate religions with many contradictions, but if it works for some then so be it, who am I to tell them their path doesn't work???

[Dark Phoenix]

Christian witchcraft I can understand but Christian Wicca seems to me to be a contradiction in terms.

[Lauren Michele]

I am a witch raised Roman Catholic. I cannot get Christ out of my heart. I must be a Christian witch:hmmmmm: .

Am I ?

What makes a witch a christian witch? Anyone??

~Belladonna~

[LostSheep]

The question, I think, is what makes a Christian? If you believe in Christ, then I think you're probably a Christian. If you're a witch as well, and you don't think that contradicts the Christian part (and I don't think it has to, remember that a lot of the stuff about withcraft in the Bible is the result of what various translators over the years have wanted to make it), then I don't think that anyone needs to feel that they shouldn't be.

[LadyCelt]

Since the topic of witchcraft and not just wicca is in here, I thought I'd add my input........

I tend to see people want more acceptance for and of others. Yet, as others have pointed out on this board, this stops for Christians interested in being witches. I don't consider myself a witch, but do believe in some of the same things. I see the Christian view of God as one type of view of the overall higher power of divinity. To me, different Gods are still aspects of the same higher power. I don't see why people can't be accepted for being both. If it is what they connect with and brings them joy; let it be.

I've noticed witchcraft talked against in the Bible, but never by Jesus. I don't agree with everything else said by the apostle Paul. A lot of his writings and the writings of other theologans are to denounce the ways of the people they oppose. So, if the Greeks or Romans did witchcraft; he would naturally oppose it along with other things to oppose them and their culture.

[Stormwt]

I think it's quite a difficult question.

From the Christian viewpoint you can't be a good Christian and a Pagan (or anything) at the same time.

From a Pagan viewpoint it doesn't make someone any less a Wiccan if they follow Christianity also.

[Nox_Mortus]

From the Christian viewpoint you can't be a good Christian and a Pagan (or anything) at the same time.

From a Pagan viewpoint it doesn't make someone any less a Wiccan if they follow Christianity also.

to some pagans maybe, but there is no universal pagan viewpoint on this subject, even within Wicca, I know several traditionalists (and many eclectics as well) that would consider the idea of Christian Wicca to be laughable at best and at worst tantamount to heresy. I don't see a problem with Christian witchcraft seeing that faith healing is a long standing tradition in Christianity and that can easily be seen as a form of witchcraft (remember that the Christian view of witches is generally that they draw their power from satan, whereas I would assume Christian witches are assumed to draw their powers from god )

I don't see a problem with some sort of earth based Christianity either, but it isn't Wicca.

[imapepper]

I've noticed witchcraft talked against in the Bible, but never by Jesus.

Probably because Jesus (walking on water, healing with his hands, turning water into wine, multiplying bread and fish) was the biggest witch of them all!

;)

[WildThing]

Actually, it's a path I considered following while I was still new to most concepts and paganism in general.
I can understand how some people can mix the two religions, myself. At least christianity as the faith of Jesus and love, mixing it with Wicca anyway. If you tried to mix christian fanaticism and wicca it probably would be a cantradiction, but the few Christian Wiccans I've spoken with seemed very spiritual, at peace with themselves, and it seemed to work very well for them.

In general I'm a "to each their own" kind of person, so of course I respect and support their path.
As it is prolly a difficult one to walk considering the reactions on both christian and pagan sides may not always be completely accepting.

[PrincessKLS]

I'm a Christian witch but I do draw inspiration from Wicca.

[phoenixrising]

The part of the bible (forgive me if I get the quote wrong) "Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live" is a mistranslation. It should say poisoner..

[Evinmeer]

The part of the bible (forgive me if I get the quote wrong) "Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live" is a mistranslation. It should say poisoner..

You are absolutely correct. It's nice to see that some people don't take everything at face value, and are willing to look deeper than just modern interpretations - especially considering the vast history of something as important as spiritual beliefs!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Evinmeer...since you seem to know , a respectful
question...what word , exactly , was used in the
original text ?

I threw out my translations , years ago...

Yet , I have heard this , time and again...and
have always wondered...

Keshaph , is witch...

Sam , is poison...

Which of these , or another word , was used ?

Thank you , in advance , for the assistance...

[Lupine Dream]

Okay, I just voted and I chose "Other" because I was a Christian for 3 years but now I have abandoned that faith and I'm looking into Wicca.

[phoenixrising]

If I am not mistaken by poisoner it meant a gossip/rumormonger/liar

[Whitewolf]

I respect Christian Wicca. It's not my path, but I don't have any problem with it.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

If I am not mistaken by poisoner it meant a gossip/rumormonger/liar

Thank you , Phoenix Rising...but that is not what I ,
nor anyone needs , to make a truly accurate , and
correct translation...one must have the original word
used , in the original text...that is the only way to be
absolutely sure...

[phoenixrising]

I don't know Aramaic, just trying to help giving the context of the word used..

[Marcel]

The story of Jesus can be seen as a Wiccan story. He teaches to live kindly and by harming none. He certainly had magic (miracles). I love having Mary on my side as a protector, confidant, and spiritual guide. I see Jesus and Mary as very good witches. (I see Georgie Bush as a very bad witch!)

Blessed Be:rotfl::rotfl:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I don't know Aramaic, just trying to help giving the context of the word used..

Understood , and appreciated that input , and answer...

But that is exactly what I have heard before...I refuse to
believe those concepts , unless I can see the exact word
used in the original language...

Why would you kill a gossipmonger ? That seems so
absolutely ridiculous...no...there is something else , going
on there...

Let's get to the bottom of this...something is fishy...:rotfl:

For instance...the rune I know , as Aidall , originally
meant female inheritance...later changed into just the
term inheritance , which later , was controlled by males...

The Christians took our female inheritance rune , turned
it on it's side , and it became the "Fish of Christ"...just
another takeover , of the Olde Wietchcrreayafth...

Not the modern witches...You see...in our Faery Lore ,there
was a war , between the Wietch , and Witch ( Keshaph )...

It is our understanding , the translation is correct...

But they meant "Wietch" , when they used the term...

Ie : Keshaph , was fine to leave alone...Wietch was to be killed...

Hope that helps...

[raven grimassi]

to make a truly accurate, and correct translation...one must have the original word used , in the original text...that is the only way to be absolutely sure...

This is tricky because sources do not agree, not only with what word was used by also what the words mean. Most modern scholars refer to the word chasaph, casaph, kasap, kesaph, or kaseph, when pointing to the translation (or mistranslation) to the Engish word Witch. Reportedly it was Reginald Scot, in his book Discoveries of Witchcraft, who first raised the question of mistranslation. He said the Bible used the word "chasaph" to indicate a Witch, and that this word actually meant poisoner.

One of the contemporary problems is that some people refer to the Aramaic and others to Rabbinic Hebrew. I am no Bible scholar and so I cannot remark on this topic. But in my research I have encountered different sources that translate the word kasaph or keseph to mean quite different things. For example, some sources say that the word keseph is Hebrew for the English word silver, and the Hebrew word kasaph is pale or white in English. These are difficult to render as Witch or poisoner, and is therefore a puzzle.

However, other sources say that the word kashap means "to use Witchcraft" and the word keshep means "Withcraft" itself. But then other sources say that kashshap means sorcerer, while others say that mekashshepah means sorcerer (and meceshepe means sorceress). And these sources all say that this is word translated in the Bible as the English word Witch.

I personally think the problem is not so much one of which word we are talking about, as it is about what translators were trying to say (or thought they were saying). What I mean is that words can indicate something other than their literal translation. For example, if I write that John Smith is a nut case, future translators who are not familiar with colloquial expressions of my time period may translate my sentence to indicate that John Smith was a courier who transported the fruit of nut trees in some type of briefcase. Anyone basing anything else I said about John Smith upon this translation would misinterpret my meaning because the foundational understanding is incorrect. This same thing, I believe, took place among the translators of the Bible who were not aware of ancient Hebrew culture and the colloquial expressions of the time.

One example in the Bible is where Jesus says that it is as difficult for a rich man to enter heaven as it is to pass a camel through the eye of a needle. Most people take this to mean a sowing needle and an attempt to pass a camel through the opening for the thread. But that is not what it means at all. A study of the period in which this was written shows that the “eye of a needle” is the opening in a corral where camels are kept. The gate has no door, but is arch-shaped, and the top of the arch hits the camel about mid-chest height. In order for the camel to pass through the eye of the needle it has to get down on its knees and scoot through in a crawling manner. Reportedly camels hate this, and the people who had to get the camels out of the corral had quite a time of it (thus the reference to how difficult it is to pass a camel through the eye of a needle). This accurate meaning changes the inaccurate popular meaning of the passage, which is mistaken to mean an impossible task (passing a camel through the opening of a sowing needle).

[phoenixrising]

Wow! Thanks Raven, that was very informative! I shall pass that bit of wisdom to my chaplain! Makes a whole lot more sense now, you have to humble yourself (knees) and that isn't easy.. but you can do it. As opposed to if your rich you can't go to heaven.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

That is what I know , Raven...of language...

It's mercurial nature...and interpretation...

Yet I thank you , for your erudite explanation ,
and clarity , concerning the word , which I now
know was used...Kashaph...

As it is Kashaph , listed as the word Witch , in
the Godwin's Encyclopedia...value 400

Yet , I still am not convinced , what was being
alluded to , was not a Wietch of a Different Color ,
so to speak...not by race , yet practice...

As far as Sorceress , our word is Mekeshar...value 560

And Mekshepah , value 445...these are extremely specific ,
in the Obri / Hebrit language...

You cannot say Mekshepah , and mean Mekashshapah...

It would not have the same value , thus the result of the
phrase would appear wrong...

Again , thank you , for a prompt reply , to a question...

And a gift , in return...Sewing , not Sowing needle...

I may reap what I sow...but it is a needle pulling thread...

Blessings on your path...thanks for your hard work...

Nice to have you here...

[Simply Puzzled]

But that is exactly what I have heard before...I refuse to believe those concepts , unless I can see the exact word

I think your suspicions are right on. For starters, everyone seems to use a word which translates neither as poisoner or witchcraft: Chasaph. I think it's a case of someone making the argument a long time ago (it seems Sir Walter Scott is the first recorded person to put it forth), and everyone picked up on it and parroted it without thinking too much. The problem with dealing with a dead language is that we might simply never know. If there are only a few references to the word and it could be interpreted as either in all contexts, well, there we go.

I think to argue over the translation though misses the larger context. There are numerous injunctions against sorcery and mediumship all through the Bible. Portraying Jesus as a witch is largely a fairytale based on very bad Biblical scholarship. If simply performing miracles is all that's required to be a witch, well, the word is now simply a synonym for miracle-work, virtually meaningless. One must look at the context and way in which the acts that are attributed to him occur, as well as the context in which they were written down and meant to be read. One could make a case for Christian Witchcraft, but I have yet to see anyone that has done the heavy-duty theology that would be necessary to justify the pratices. Instead, it seems to be a collection of "I read once that witch really meant poisoner so that must mean it's okay to be a witch." That isn't the "looking deeper" that Evinmeer was so quick to dole out praise for. It's simply replacing saying Biblical quotes without thinking to saying Biblical criticism without thinking.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Thank you , Simply Puzzled...

Nice to see you...And yes , I am well aware , of the
injunctions against witchcraft , divination , etc...

And this is the main reason , I have my suspicions...

Still , as you have been one of the ones to illustrate
to me , on this site...doing anything one can , to
support their position , or post , does help...

So...it was not totally about translation , per se...

More about sustantiation of terminology...

And between Raven , you , and myself...I believe
we have truly called into question , what was meant...

Nothing against Evinmeer's , or anyone else's post...

Just questions arise...and thus for me , comes the real
question...

Can One Truly be a Christian and a Witch / Wietch ?

[raven grimassi]

Sewing , not Sowing needle...

You are quite right, and that was a careless misspelling on my part. A sewing needle is correct.


concerning the word , which I now know was used...Kashaph...As it is Kashaph , listed as the word Witch , in
the Godwin's Encyclopedia

That was always my understanding, but I simply point out that other sources claim differently. But again, kasaph/khasaph or casaph/chasaph is what most scholars point to as the word translated in the English word Witch.


I think your suspicions are right on. For starters, everyone seems to use a word which translates neither as poisoner or witchcraft: Chasaph. I think it's a case of someone making the argument a long time ago (it seems Sir Walter Scott is the first recorded person to put it forth), and everyone picked up on it and parroted it without thinking too much. The problem with dealing with a dead language is that we might simply never know. If there are only a few references to the word and it could be interpreted as either in all contexts, well, there we go.

I will need to find some old source notes and dust them off, but as I recall the argument with casaph is rooted in the speculation that it meant an assassin, and that people of that ilk used poison to make the kill. Thus the word translated as one thing but meant another. This tied in nicely (for those who wanted it to) with the Greek word for Witchcraft, which was pharmakis (drugs from plants) . This concept later connected with the Latin word venefica, which today is erroneously thought to mean poisoner. However, the root word is vene not venom, and the former indicates an association with the goddess Venus. So in truth, a venefica was originally a maker of love potions, not poison. But in a Roman trial the prosecutor argued that love potions robbed the target person of his or her free will, and thus poisoned the mind. So, poisoner stuck as the meaning, but was not the actual translation of the word.


I am well aware , of the injunctions against witchcraft , divination , etc..

Yes, the Bible is clear that the mystic or occult arts are forbidden. This includes any form of divination and magical practice. But that aside, when we talk specifically about Witchcraft, it should be noted that the so-called Hebrew Witch and the European Witch appear not to be the same character. The Hebrew Witch is more of a medium or spiritualist.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Nice post , Raven...and yes , I was glad to see the
many variants of the word...thank you , for your
scholarly thoroughness...

As far as your response to my statement , at the
bottom of your last post...absolutely...and this ,
is why , as a recent example ( from my perspective )...

Of the different approaches to the craft / crreayafth ,
or any other variants...and their acceptance , or
their rejection , within a cultural context...would
a European Witch , working with "infernal forces" ,
be accepted within the Hebraic community , of old ?

Or , would that one be branded , as an "assassin" ,
or "poisoner" ?

This is one of the places I feel questions arise...just one...