Christain Wicca

[seapearls]

Do you support Christain-Wicca?

[NivekDrgnMage]

IT is not the path I follow, but as a path for others I support it. As I support any path. :)

[WinterTree]

Yes, I do support it. If it works for you, go for it.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

I personally see a deep philosophical conflict between the two belief systems, but for some people it seems to work. Considering the way witchcraft is looked at in the Bible, and polytheism, and considering that Christians are expected to follow/accept the teachings in the Bible, in my opinion, I just don't think the two belief systems can mesh. When I was Christian--and I have a fairly grounded knowledge of the Bible--it would have been unacceptable to claim to be both Christian and a member of Wicca. I suppose that I see "Christian Wicca" as a form of the New Age Christ Consciousness movement.

Yasmine

[seapearls]

I myself agree with Yasmine too. I've been reading articles on the topic since I heard about it. I personally think people are seeing that christianity is too strict and how wicca is appealing to them more but they are too afraid to just let go of Jesus and so they try to do both. Its like its their security blanket, they want to leave christianity because of all its flaws but are too scared so they try to find a way to mixing the two together although they know it is not possible. I see that the number of christains declining and wiccas climbing. I think as long as they still cling to christianity in one form or another they will never truly be wiccan. I'd like to think I could be open to this new combo, I wouldn't even call it a tradition, like all the normal traditions but I can't help but be dead against it. I do however have no problem with christain withches since that has nothing to do with religion just the craft.

[Isil Darkmoon]

I stuck a poll in here for you, seapearls. The chocies I added were those I could think of; if you'd like them changed, please PM me.

[Aine of the Fae]

Christian Witchcraft, while not easy, is doable. However, Christian Wicca would be much more difficult because they are two specific religions, however, again, it's doable. I used to believe it wasn't, but then I actually saw it done, and it worked for that person, so who am I to judge.

If you are truly interested in Christian Witchcraft? Here's a few threads for you:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57104
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57475
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=56943

And if you look in my signature, there is a link to a new class I'm teaching on Christian Witchcraft.

[punxzen]

how about those christians who formed their close spiritual understanding and relationship with God, but then decided to shirk the dogma and doctrine of the church/bible, and adopt the goddess and wiccan teachings? i think that would be christian wicca. or if i decided that i was going to be wiccan, my christian spirituality would have no conflict with it. personally im more interested in hermetic magic when it comes to the magical side of my spirituality, but if wicca suits the person, and they still love their christian spirituality, i see no conflict. unless of course the person wants to cling to dogma.

[seapearls]

I stuck a poll in here for you, seapearls. The chocies I added were those I could think of; if you'd like them changed, please PM me.

Hey thanks that looks good. Not sure what I did wrong but I'll try not to let it happen again. LOL

[Shanti]

Why cant a person believe in the Christian God and anything else they want to. Who said you can only believe in God if you believe in the bible that was written by man?
Who writes the rules, man or God. We can only take the word of man that he is guided by God. So, since man is deceitful at times, can a person believe in God without the belief in books? I say yes.

How about equal oportunity for whatever gods you want to believe in? The only limits are those placed by man. I think if God had a problem with a person, he would let that person know!!!

I personally dont feel that a person can judge what another wants to believe in when it comes to faith.

[Aine of the Fae]

Very well put Shanti!

[WolfWonderess]

It doesn't matter if someone's spiritual path makes sense to you or not. The fact is, a person's spirituality is between themselves and their deity(s), if they follow deities, and if there's a conflict, they'll be made aware of it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Shanti! ^_^

[DixieWitch]

It doesn't matter if someone's spiritual path makes sense to you or not. The fact is, a person's spirituality is between themselves and their deity(s), if they follow deities, and if there's a conflict, they'll be made aware of it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Shanti! ^_^
I agree with WolfWonderess and Shanti.

I am also taking Aine's Christian Witchcraft class to learn how it's different and similar. I don't disagree with or dislike any path--Pagan, Christian, etc. I only dislike and disagree with any forceful shoving of a path down my throat!

[Brinclhof]

I don't know enough about wicca to say if Christian wicca is possible. I believe it is possible ot have christian witches and I am a Christo-pagan.

[Gede]

MM~
I personally think people are seeing that christianity is too strict and how wicca is appealing to them more but they are too afraid to just let go of Jesus and so they try to do both. Its like its their security blanket, they want to leave christianity because of all its flaws but are too scared so they try to find a way to mixing the two together although they know it is not possible.

Actually I disagree with that considering that Christianity is a valid system and just as flawed as any other religion. I also believe that faith and devotion in Jesus Christ is a sincere and applicable pathway to spiritual fulfillment. After all there are many underlying commonalities between the story of Jesus (birth, adolescence, teaching, crucifixion and resurrection) and the various sacrifical, vegetation deities of the early Pagan religions.

I have great respect for an individual who is willing to sacrifice their humility to follow the path that is their's.

Namaste, Gede...

[Elfa Wylde]

I personally see a deep philosophical conflict between the two belief systems, but for some people it seems to work. Considering the way witchcraft is looked at in the Bible, and polytheism, and considering that Christians are expected to follow/accept the teachings in the Bible, in my opinion, I just don't think the two belief systems can mesh. When I was Christian--and I have a fairly grounded knowledge of the Bible--it would have been unacceptable to claim to be both Christian and a member of Wicca. I suppose that I see "Christian Wicca" as a form of the New Age Christ Consciousness movement.

Yasmine


yeah! What she said!

[equinox2]

I agree with much of the oft-quoted post by Yamsine, however, I feel it is important to point out that what we call “Christianity” today is only one form of Christianity. The one form we as familiar with today eradicated the others by around 400 CE. The other Christianities also had their own scripture, and what we call the “bible” is just the scripture of that one form of Christianity that won out (much of the other scripture was lost or destroyed). As a result, yes, Yasmine, there are many inherent conflicts between the Bible and Wicca (or anything else), but one can be Christian even if one rejects the entire Bible. So one could be a Gnostic Christian, or a Montanist Christian, etc. If that is done, then all the conflicts with the Bible aren’t relevant.

So maybe I’d say it is “difficult” to be a Biblical Wiccan, but to be a Christian Wiccan, well, there is more room for agreement there. Even for a Bible-based approach, however, by picking different parts of the Bible a person could do anything.

[Flar's Freyja]

Once I got over my initial anger at Christianity, I actually started returning to some of my Catholic beliefs when I found that many of the Catholic saints are not just comparable to pagan gods and goddesses - they are one and the same.

While I don't buy the salvation story, I now see Christ as a god in his own right, and the Blessed Virgin is one of my patron goddesses.

The irony in Christian Wicca is that the Bible is actually full of magic and divination, so those on this path may actually be practicing the way it was intended. Something to think about.

[rain_fallen_tears]

I chose that I couldn't make sense of Christian Wicca, mostly because of the option below it, the contradiction between Wicca and Christianity, two completely seperate things it seems to me. But I could be very wrong :bigredblu ....I do understand Christian witchcraft and completelty support it. I myself am not, but what right would that give me to look down upon it!? I'm just happy when people are completely sure of their faith, and don't insult anyone elses.;)

[seapearls]

The irony in Christian Wicca is that the Bible is actually full of magic and divination, so those on this path may actually be practicing the way it was intended. Something to think about.

Thats a way to look at it. Almost like the story just got twisted up badly.

I've never been angry at Christianity but I just have this feeling towards it I can't describe. I also support christain witchcraft and don't deny there ever was a guy names Jesus, I just think he was made out to be way more than he was. Blown out of proportion as they say. Like in Buddhism they had Buddha which was a regular guy who did great things but they don't worship him as a god they just try to live their life like he did as an example. I think Jesus needs to be regardedas the same way. Maybe some do look at him that way but I never saw it.

[fay]

i agree with that. i totally think that jesus existed. i think that he sounds like a cool guy with a lot of great ideas. pity some people didnt listen.
blessed be

havent voted as am not sure. i think of christianity as believing in one god and wicca as believing in the goddess and god, so that kind of conflicts but im not really sure.

[Strawberry Bounce]

I respect and support Christian Wicca even if it's not my path.

[Dorchadas Síofra]

IT is not the path I follow, but as a path for others I support it. As I support any path. :)

*nods in agreement* Who am I to decide if something works or not? if something is right or wrong? if someone can make it work for them and it's what fits them best, why can it not be possible?

[Pan]

I picked "I am a Christian Witch, but not a Christian Wiccan."

It's not so hard to see how they can mesh, and Aine of the Fae's Christian Witchcraft class brought me out of my spiritual slump of 2 years when nothing else could. I feel a very strong calling toward it and feel comfortable with it.

Yes, there are some hurdles I'm working on regarding my past experiences with Christianity. I'm just willing to work past them, crawl over them, with Aine's helping hand. As well as the rest of the class. We can build a human pyramid and get over that hurdle as one!

So, yes. I support the union.

[MystickalMe]

I personally don't understand, I want to I suppose on some levels, but I don't... however I do support it! Heck I will support anything so long as people are honest with themselves about their beliefs!

[charmedkisses1]

I picked the "I get the Christian witches, but not Wiccans" one... bc I honestly don't get it :lol:

[ShinningStar_13]

Though some say the religions have a conflict of interests I do not see this. I would definately call myself a "Christian Wicca" because I believe in aspects of both religions, and when it comes right down to it both involve the worship of good, and share simmiliar ethics (when you reduce both to their raw, primative cores). At least, that is how I see it.

[gwendar]

I respect and support it. It's probably not for me, but if it works for some people, great!!

[barlitone]

The way I see it, a Christian Wiccan shouldn't be much different than a... uh, regular Wiccan? :kooky:

Many Wiccans I know, at one point or another, work with various dieties in a wide variety of pantheons - Isis, Cerridwen, Dionysus, Brigid, etc. - why not Mary, Jesus, and the like? Why would these particular ones be off-limits?

I've heard this topic come up in every list I've ever been on and every forum I've seen. And, I always say that I to believe it's as valid as my path even though, to me, it's more like Wiccan Christianity than Christian Wicca. Within the strict confines of mainstream Christianity, it's tough to be a Wiccan. But, given the somewhat unique view of diety we pagans enjoy, being Wiccan - or any flavor of pagan - and working with Judeo-Chrisitan dieties in ritual (or whatever you're doing) should not be a problem.

Just my two cents. :eyebrow:

[Pol]

I'm a Christian Pagan, but that wasn't on the list, so I chose christian witch.

I find the idea of Christianity being a security blanket a bit unfair and almost hurtful (if I was the kind of person who gets hurt, I would be).
When I tried to pull away from Christianity, I became connected to the God thereof so strongly I cannot describe it. He became so real to me when the other gods that be showed themselves to me. I was no longer believing in some secret God far away, I was believing in a being that had many more just like him.
I would not judge the emotions of others so easily.

I'm sure there are those who were raised catholic (I find catholic guilt to be much stronger than others) fearing damnation if they turn from Christianity, but I'd not go so far as to say that that's even a majority of the Christian-pagans out there.

[{Tigress}]

I respect everyone's beliefs, so yes, even though I am not a Christain-Wiccan, I do respect those who are.

[dr_zeus440]

i went with contradiction in terms, and im not gunna argue this point beyond this post because it bores me to tears already. christianity is one thing, wicca/witchcraft is another. some parts of both of them contradict some parts in the other. by mixing them, you change one or the other and so its not christianity or wicca/witchcraft. i think if you wanna head down the myriad paths that the mixture can lead to, separate yourself by calling yourself something else. ive got no problem with anyone who wants to use magic in a jesus context, for example, but it sure as hell aint christianity or wicca or witchcraft, so why call it that? apples and oranges, ladies and gentlemen.

[EclecticDream]

I just don't see how the 2 could ever work. Christianity is blatantly opposed to witchcraft, or the worship of any other gods, for that matter. I could see a Wiccan who honors Christ in their own way, but would that make them Christian? *Shrug* That doesn't seem possible to me.

But, to each his own. I will never condemn someone for following such a path.

[ap Dafydd]

I just don't see how the 2 could ever work. Christianity is blatantly opposed to witchcraft, or the worship of any other gods, for that matter. I could see a Wiccan who honors Christ in their own way, but would that make them Christian? *Shrug* That doesn't seem possible to me.

But, to each his own. I will never condemn someone for following such a path.

Might not condemn them, just wish they'd go away and do their Christ thing somewhere that Pagans aren't.

I do think it's a contradiction in terms. Wicca is a religion which is specifically (by definition) different from Christianity. Christianity is a religion whose bible has certain things to say about most of the practices of Wicca.

If someone thinks they can be a Christian and still do things like witchcraft, divination, and the like, then it's not for me to say whether they can or can't. I'm a Pagan, and I can only speak for what Pagans do. Go and post your topic on a Christian site and see what they say.

[Pol]

Posting on a Christian board won't do much good. They'd be vehemently against it, I can assure you (as I visit many).

The idea behind my own Christian-Pagan oxymoronic religion is that - given that the Bible is very old and has been translated many times by many people, and still ultimately a human text - I can choose what to believe of it.

I'm not sure about it mixing with Wicca, however, as I am not a wiccan and have never felt the desire to study the beliefs thereof very much.

In Christianity, there are more denominations than one could ever dream of poking with a stick. Therefor, one can be whatever one wants and still say it's Christianity, if they follow Christ.

[Aine of the Fae]

Very well said wicce, very well said!

[Pol]

Actually, there have been people much more androgynous than Christ. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that he wasn't. He's what men SHOULD be, if they weren't too busy guarding their manhood from the evils of homosexuality (emotions).
I tend to think of Christ more as the 'sitting around with the guys' kind of man, as most of his life was spent chilling out with his disciples ;)

Anyway, I was originally posting to say something else:
To be fair, the bible never says women should not speak (in terms of sermons, teaching, that sort of thing) in church. The 'church' set up was drastically different from what we now have.
There was a problem of the women yelling across to the men (if I remember correctly, to ask them if something was true or so), from their little service area, and they were told to remain silent and ask their husbands when they got home so as not to disturb the others worshiping/teaching/whatevering.

However, your point is still valid. For instance, 'preachers' should be the husband of one wife and successfully have raised a family before leading a church - for how can one lead a church if they've not proven they can lead a family (the same as a church body)?
I've found that most preachers tend to have started right out of seminary (seminary! ugh. i can't stand the thought of it)..

[bshore]

I think Christains would have a problem with Christo-Wiccans because Christains profess theirs to be the one, true, right way. To be a christian, you have to accept that Jesus was the son of God, and came to earth to save our human souls from damnation. If a Wiccan believes this, then I would wonder how it meshes with the reverence for nature and non-belief in hell that most Wiccans have.

If, however, you forget the fundamental teachings of conservative Christianity, and want to love Jesus and revere him as a diety or other holy person while practicing Wicca, I think that would work just fine. Just keep in mind Christians still wouldn't agree with your faith.

Christian witchcraft I see no conflict with, so I chose the option to respect and support it, but don't choose to follow it myself.

[Grey]

*Shrugs* I put other... Ive only talked to a couple Christian wiccans so I really cant say much. I can put in a few things like the fact that there are purposeful mistranslations in the bible... the word used in the phrase "thou shalt suffer not a whitch to live" actually translates more to poisioner. In a religion that is against murder I can see how this would be. It also doesnt say to kill them... though it is implied Ill admit. Still conversion or a change of job could to it just as easily right?
As for the Christo-wiccan path... from what I have seen I like it. It seems more... balanced to me. Though I cant find myself worshopping the christ-god. The few times Ive found him have been... distressing. But for those that can get along with him I am happy they have found a balanced equation in this chaotic world.

[cartweel]

I've always had trouble with this subject. Sometimes I feel very out-of-place in the discussions because of my self-aknowledged bias against Christianity. Being liberal and gay I felt forced out of the religious community in my small, conservative, bible-belt town. I am continuously trying to remind myself, however, that Christianity is a valid belief system that is just as valid as any beliefs I hold.

That being said, I can support Christian Wiccans and Wiccan Christians. I see Christianity and Wicca having very similar core belief systems (there is a divine, you can have contact with that divine, richeous living and understanding is valued, etc.) and therefore cannot deny that someone could find a common ground between them. These people can and do blend those religions into a system of Wicca (or a system of Christianity) just as valid as "normal Wicca" or "normal Christianity". The periphery and not the core of the two religions are at odds.

I don't like to use second-hand examples, but one such circumstance involves one of my good friends and a spiritual teacher of mine. She had such a relationship within Christianity that she became an ordained Baptist Minister while at the same time realizing her conection with Wicca and other fascits of Paganism. I say, if the two systems can mesh in such a solid, secure way, how could it not be valid?

One other comment. Others have stated that if Christianity and Wicca are combined that they create an entirely new belief system: such is the beauty of religiosity and the personal journey. If someone truely feels connected to either Christianity or Wicca and combines elements of the other with it, can that new system not be used within the for both contrast and reflection?

[SteveH]

Christian Wicca not only is doable but it is totally sensible and practical. Those who don't believe it is possible or legitimate usually have not seriously read anything on it or talked to someone who walks the path.

Love and Light,

Steve
Christian Wicca Ministries (http://www.steveholder.com/jesus.html)

.

[Sleet]

*Shrug* The weird suf I believe in, I don't think I'm in much of a position to tell someone else their faith doesn't make sense.

[Pol]

I think Christains would have a problem with Christo-Wiccans because Christains profess theirs to be the one, true, right way. To be a christian, you have to accept that Jesus was the son of God, and came to earth to save our human souls from damnation. If a Wiccan believes this, then I would wonder how it meshes with the reverence for nature and non-belief in hell that most Wiccans have.

If, however, you forget the fundamental teachings of conservative Christianity, and want to love Jesus and revere him as a diety or other holy person while practicing Wicca, I think that would work just fine. Just keep in mind Christians still wouldn't agree with your faith.

Christian witchcraft I see no conflict with, so I chose the option to respect and support it, but don't choose to follow it myself.


It can go deeper. I hold great love for nature, and believe not in hell, yet I still believe that Christ came to save us from it.
I do not believe in a literal hell, but believe that without Christ my life would be as hell - arid, empty, burning, and lonely.

[Gwynna Star]

At this point in time, I'm in between Christianity and Wicca. I'm also studying the craft. I believe that the Divine is male and female, along with other aspects which we may not be aware of. It's a big universe, and I'm one of those sci-fi people who believe there are many beings in the universe. Sometimes I wonder what belief systems they have...

I believe there's more going on, and we don't see the BIG Picture yet. Who knows? We may never see it, until we've passed on to another life.

Sorry if I'm taking this subject of course... I do believe it's possible to mix both Wicca and Christianity. Not all Christians take the bible literally, and so it's quite conceivable to combine them together. I know many people who mix religions and create their own path. I'm one that believes everyone's path has truth, as long as you follow your heart. :)

[MorningDove030202]

I selected other.... because I feel you can mix the Christianity with the Wicca, but I'm not sure if by mixing Wicca with Christianity if one is still a Christian....

I supose it comes down to your definition of Christian, and for me that has to do with beliveing that Jesus died for our sins and has saved us from Hell.

If you do belive this I don't see how you can be Wiccan as we don't belive in Hell. If you don't beleve this then (IMHO) you can't be a Christian.....

You can be:

A Pagan for Jesus
A Wiccan for Jesus
A Witch for Jesus

Which means that Jesus isn't your savior, you just follow his moral teachings, and think that he's a prety cool and posibly magical dude.

You can also be a Christian Witch including the belive in being saved, and dying for our sins.

Above all, it's your life, and you can call your path what you want. It's not my place to say who is and isn't a Christian. I just feel there might be a better term out there depening on what you actualy belive and do.

Dove

[Strawberry Bounce]

What I want to know is why people automatically assume Christianity is the safety blanket, and not Wicca! It could just as easily be that they want to convert totally to Christianity, but are so faithful to Wicca that they feel uneasy leaving.

I think it's because of the "hell" thing.

[Xander67]

I agree with Bounce.

The Concept of Hell does produce fear on one level.

[GreenAurora]

First of all, Hello to everyone; I am new here.

I am new to Wicca in general. I am 31 years old and gave been raised Catholic. I have, for many years, had issues with many working of the church, although I pratice my religion by going to church and praying. Some things I am increasingly having problems with: the legitimacy of a man-written bible with stories that I simply can not take literally, the 10 commandments-- if following these "rules" is what life is all about, then I sin practically all the time. It is silly. I do not believe there is no feminine life force, for all I know, God is female. Or-- God has no gender, or God is made up of many... I have issue with a virgin birth... BUT--I do believe that Jesus was a wonderful teacher and Saviour for all of us (meaning--I do not believe that He only helps those of us who are "Christians" while leaving those of other spiritualities behind).

As I study Wicca, I consider myself a Christian-Wiccan. Does this mean that I am too "scared" to leave Jesus behind, that I "cling" to him like a security blanket? NO--it simply means that, as many forms of Wiccan seem to offer, I will choose where I place my faith. From what I understand, Wicca equals the ability to choose. So, I choose to believe those things I have always believed in, and to leave behind many of the "truths" that have been force-fed to me all my life (the things I have NEVER believed, no matter how many times I went to church).. I am a FREE thinker. I will blend my adoration of Jesus with the worship of my God and Goddess, or maybe more than one. I do not think that one single entity governs us all. It simply can not be. But, I do believe in my God, as you believe in yours.

It can be done... and yes, it can only be done by leaving behind many rules of Christianity (esp. Catholocism). But-- it is this idea that I can not wrap my mind around properly, or articulate well... how do we REALLY know what the "rules" are? So many are man made-- it is time for me to make my own rules based on what is in my heart. These include my love of nature, the paranormal (all those things the church does not want you to know about because knowledge=power,) the feminine.

Thanks for listening :)

:fpeace:

[Erebus]

Since when did "What is and is not a valid path" become a democratic decision?

[~ Monk ~]

Do you support Christain-Wicca?
I neither support nor denounce it. Why anyone else would feel a need to do either one is kinda puzzling to me.

I think the solution to all of the angst of being a Christian Wiccan, etc. is to just do away with the existing labels. I don't think anyone should feel a need to justify their beliefs to others, but if it's really that much of an issue, eliminate the source of the problem!

[Nemesis Descending]

To be fair, the bible never says women should not speak (in terms of sermons, teaching, that sort of thing) in church.

Really? What do make of this then:

1 Timothy 2: 11-12 A woman must learn in silence and be completely submissive. I do not permit a woman to act as teacher, or in any way to have authority over a man; she must be quiet."

1 Corinthians 11: 34 Women should keep silent in such gatherings. They may not speak. Rather, as the law states, submissiveness is indicated for them. If they want to learn anything, they should ask theri husbands at home. It is a disgrace when a woman speaks in the assembly.

In Her service,
Nemesis Descending

[Aine of the Fae]

Well let's see. First that was written by (maybe) Paul. Who was a masochistic, sexist, whiny wannabe who went around telling the early Christian churches what they should and shouldn't do because he wanted to be the bigger and badder apostle. He didn't have the priviledge of knowing Jesus alive, so he had a hallucination and BOOM suddenly he's got divine authority. Hell, I have visions of Jesus nightly. Maybe I can add a few books to the Bible.

Secondly, if you read Jesus words, the ones attributed to him anyway, you might just realize that he viewed men and women as EQUALS and that he points out SEVERAL times that the Bible is NOT the word of God, that the first books of the OT were written by Moses and that he had allowed things God never allowed, thus invalidating the whole "divine inspiration" crap.

Third, quite taking freaking words out of context. Everyone seems to enjoy forgetting the CULTURE in which those books were written. The women of early Christianity greatly enjoyed their new found freedom, however the non-Christian men of that culture thought they were whores and so tried to take advantage of them. Thus the warnings to *shush* aren't so much that women can't speak as they are cultural protections. Because those books were written for a specific time, a specific culture and a specific purpose, pulling a sentence or two out here and there is foolish to say the least.

And fourth, if you're not a Christian, then don't use the Bible against Christians. If you don't hold to the words of that book then how the Hell can you expect someone else to?

[Morr]

Well let's see. First that was written by (maybe) Paul. Who was a masochistic, sexist, whiny wannabe who went around telling the early Christian churches what they should and shouldn't do because he wanted to be the bigger and badder apostle. He didn't have the priviledge of knowing Jesus alive, so he had a hallucination and BOOM suddenly he's got divine authority. Hell, I have visions of Jesus nightly. Maybe I can add a few books to the Bible.

Secondly, if you read Jesus words, the ones attributed to him anyway, you might just realize that he viewed men and women as EQUALS and that he points out SEVERAL times that the Bible is NOT the word of God, that the first books of the OT were written by Moses and that he had allowed things God never allowed, thus invalidating the whole "divine inspiration" crap.

Third, quite taking freaking words out of context. Everyone seems to enjoy forgetting the CULTURE in which those books were written. The women of early Christianity greatly enjoyed their new found freedom, however the non-Christian men of that culture thought they were whores and so tried to take advantage of them. Thus the warnings to *shush* aren't so much that women can't speak as they are cultural protections. Because those books were written for a specific time, a specific culture and a specific purpose, pulling a sentence or two out here and there is foolish to say the least.

And fourth, if you're not a Christian, then don't use the Bible against Christians. If you don't hold to the words of that book then how the Hell can you expect someone else to?

Ummm...
Jesus, being a Jew, believed that the *first five books* of the OT (ie - The Torah) were written by Moses. However, it has been historically proven that this is false, through the literature & context & expressions written in each book - showing that the author of the 5 books is not one. And was probably written at different & seperate times. Also, Moses foreseeing his own death & writing about it, is kind of a stretch.
(Which only proves even more that Jesus was actually a Jew, not a Christian).

Ummm...
What Early Christian Women? Christianity was a Jewish sect - No Jewish woman, in any Jewish sect, had extra privilages or freedom. You cannot say that every single none Christian man at that time saw Christian women as whores. Thats just making things up. Sorry. The culture at that time - At any part of the world (except for maybe the Celtic Tribes) did not give women extra privilages. ESPECIALLY not in an area where a religion like Judaism was widely practiced. You say that Jesus was a Jew & followed the Jewish teachings (most of them), well, he most likely wasnt pro - freedom for women. This is supported by your statement saying that he declared that the Torah was written by Moses, hence he held that orthodox Jewish belief, so no reason to assume he didnt hold the same orthodox opinion taught in these 5 books.

Sorry I butt in on this convo.. But I couldnt resist..

[Aine of the Fae]

Why you always gotta jump in huh Morr???

LOL But there is evidence in the gospels, as well as the pseudo-gospels, that he viewed women differently than the norm.... I'm just too brain-dead to dig up the references at the moment....

[Morr]

Why you always gotta jump in huh Morr???

LOL But there is evidence in the gospels, as well as the pseudo-gospels, that he viewed women differently than the norm.... I'm just too brain-dead to dig up the references at the moment....


its my job to jump in, and you know it ;)

I am not familiar with any evidence in the Gospels that talk about extra freedom for women.
All I know is that Jesus saved an adultress woman from being Stoned... But this wasnt because he was all like "she's a woman, let her have her fun & freedom"... It was because of that "look in the mirror before you judge someone else" lesson dealio thing he was trying to teach the people..

[Pandoras]

I believe that a person can be Pagan and/or Wican and believe in Jesus keeping in mind that all gods are one. However, I don't see how a person can be Christian and pagan/Wiccan. I've read a little here and there about the subject and I also minored in Religious Studies (specifically Christianity) in college. I'm no expert, but as far as I'm concerened, the two are completely contradictory. Or to phrase it better, Christianity and the Bible specifically and explicitly condemn pagan beliefs and practices.

Having said that, if a person calls themselves Christo-Pagan or a Christian Witch, so be it. That's their thing. It has nothing to do with me. When it comes to religion, we all pick and choose and simply dismiss what we feel is inconvinient or somehow wrong.

[IndigoMoon]

And fourth, if you're not a Christian, then don't use the Bible against Christians. If you don't hold to the words of that book then how the Hell can you expect someone else to?[/QUOTE]

is the bible true or not? that is an age old question. Another big complaint about the bible is that people pick parts and pieces and choose to believe in this part or that part but not another part. I think that the bible a really good read actually. It's got as much action, suspense, betrayal and lovingness as any of the books that are on the best seller list today. But since I think that it's either all true or not at all I choose to discount the bible. It all comes down to the parts about pagans going to hell and sabbats, worshipping more than one god, or a god other than "the god" are also all grounds for going to hell. I don't use the bible against christians. I think that everyone has a right to their own thing. But it was the bible that turned me off of christianity.

[Aine of the Fae]

And fourth, if you're not a Christian, then don't use the Bible against Christians. If you don't hold to the words of that book then how the Hell can you expect someone else to?

is the bible true or not? that is an age old question. Another big complaint about the bible is that people pick parts and pieces and choose to believe in this part or that part but not another part. I think that the bible a really good read actually. It's got as much action, suspense, betrayal and lovingness as any of the books that are on the best seller list today. But since I think that it's either all true or not at all I choose to discount the bible. It all comes down to the parts about pagans going to hell and sabbats, worshipping more than one god, or a god other than "the god" are also all grounds for going to hell. I don't use the bible against christians. I think that everyone has a right to their own thing. But it was the bible that turned me off of christianity.[/QUOTE]

Consider this. Perhaps the Bible has levels of truth. Jesus spoke a great deal in parables. These aren't generally considered to be literal historical events, instead they were stories that illustrated spiritual truth. So why wouldn't the rest of the Bible be the same way?

Also, the Bible is culturally biased. Even fundamentalist Christians will tell you that you can't apply every law and rule in the Bible to modern society, because it simply doesn't fit. How do I know they'll tell you this? Because I'm going to a fundamentalist Bible college and one of my classes this semester is Biblical Ethics.

If a pagan can pick and choose what they want to believe, why can't a Christian? Why is there this big double standard?

[Morr]

Consider this. Perhaps the Bible has levels of truth. Jesus spoke a great deal in parables. These aren't generally considered to be literal historical events, instead they were stories that illustrated spiritual truth. So why wouldn't the rest of the Bible be the same way?

Also, the Bible is culturally biased. Even fundamentalist Christians will tell you that you can't apply every law and rule in the Bible to modern society, because it simply doesn't fit. How do I know they'll tell you this? Because I'm going to a fundamentalist Bible college and one of my classes this semester is Biblical Ethics.

If a pagan can pick and choose what they want to believe, why can't a Christian? Why is there this big double standard?

there is no double standard, Aine.
it doesnt make sense to some Pagans out there (and im not ashamed to say that I'm one of them), that Christians like you admit that the bible (at least parts of it) are false, yet choose to believe what "feels right" to you, in the form of Jesus being the Messiah & The Son Of God. Again, how do you know that this Jesus story & his teachings isnt one big fat fable?
Just like the Pagan Gods are not real to you, so is Jesus & his myths not real to people like me. And just as it seems wierd to you that pagans like me believe in Gods that are recorded in acient legends, so is it wierd to us that you believe in a God & a human that are recorded in some book, etc.
Your beliefs are as inadequate to our lives, as our beliefs are as inadequate to yours (using your own words).

and thats just it.

[Aine of the Fae]

Then why is it ok for you to say it, but not me.

[Aowyn]

there is no double standard, Aine.
it doesnt make sense to some Pagans out there (and im not ashamed to say that I'm one of them), that Christians like you admit that the bible (at least parts of it) are false, yet choose to believe what "feels right" to you, in the form of Jesus being the Messiah & The Son Of God. Again, how do you know that this Jesus story & his teachings isnt one big fat fable?

Ahhh in the words of Rodney King "Why can't we all just get along?"

How does anyone know that their religious beleifs are not just based on one big fat fable? HMMMMM? That my dear is where faith comes into play, all religions require faith this is a fact and not debatable.

One could put forth the argument that the reason for a christian not beleiving every little syllable in the bible is due to the fact that the bible was written by man (insert room for error here folks) and then was subsequently translated by many other men (hello there coloring of facts and possible chance for deletion or denial of important stuff). Therefore anyone who says I don't beleive all of the stuff in the bible is merely using good common sense. :D

[Aelfoak]

I personally don't see how these two beliefs can gel together, but if it makes someone else happy then its ok.

[Erebus]

there is no double standard, Aine.
it doesnt make sense to some Pagans out there (and im not ashamed to say that I'm one of them), that Christians like you admit that the bible (at least parts of it) are false, yet choose to believe what "feels right" to you, in the form of Jesus being the Messiah & The Son Of God. Again, how do you know that this Jesus story & his teachings isnt one big fat fable?

Right, like the Osiris and Odin and Diana and Brigit and Kali, et al stories and teachings aren't big fat fables.

CHRISTIAN fables are unworthy of use by enlightened people, only OTHER fables can be used. :rolleyes:

[Avalon]

Christianity and Wicca have always seemed at odds to me...but I respect those who take it for their Path. Christian Witchcraft I have an easier time with, since one doesn't have to be religious to practice folk magic, etc. Just my humble 2¢. :)

[Erebus]

Like I said in the OTHER thread (..no, not that OTHER thread, the OTHER other thread! No, not that one either! Damn it!), if it was good enough for Dion Fortune, it's good enough for me.

[CleftOfLight]

I sapport christain Witch yesss I do

[VioletFaerie]

I respect and support Christian Wicca even if it's not my path because frankly, I don't have the right to disapprove of anyones path, may it be Calvinism or Devil Worshipping! I owe it to everyone to respect their path, as I wouldn't want my path to be disrespected. :)

[Nuiket]

Although there is an Author that says that the Two can not be together at all I don't believe that part of the book and support what you choose as long as it is not froced Upon anyone!

[Nuiket]

there is no double standard, Aine.

I'm sorry But If Pagans that do read the bivle for what ever reason they and then are being pounded by so many Christians to convert the pagans back to Chirst and they use the bible againist the Pagan's I think the Pagan's have the right to use the bible back on them. And Not to sound Rude or anything but it sounds like to me that you are frocing your Religion on us Just like Normal Christian's Do. And That was One thing I couldn't stand for WHile I was Christian and what I became A Wiican/Pagan!

[Betah]

I'm sorry But If Pagans that do read the bivle for what ever reason they and then are being pounded by so many Christians to convert the pagans back to Chirst and they use the bible againist the Pagan's I think the Pagan's have the right to use the bible back on them. And Not to sound Rude or anything but it sounds like to me that you are frocing your Religion on us Just like Normal Christian's Do. And That was One thing I couldn't stand for WHile I was Christian and what I became A Wiican/Pagan!

1. The tendency of certain evangelical Christians to use quotes from the Bible against other religions does not give those religions the right to use quotes taken out of context, from a book they don't even believe in and throw them in the faces of a separate group of Christians, who in all likelihood have to put up with the same nonsense from those same evangelical Christians.
2. There is no such thing as normal Christianinty, currently the are more different denominations than could be feasibly counted and the majority of these Christians are not evangelical. To clarify; The average Christian would not consider a verbal barrage of context deficient Bible quotes a valid argument, nor is the average Christian going to forcibly convert anyone.
3. I find that the only serious difference between an evangelical and a over zealous Pagan is the Pagan is more likely to claim, utterly falsely, that they think "all paths are equally valid" in their view whilst trying to berate me into yielding to their views of what is and isn't possible to believe (and not in an all encompassing, happy, five word phrase).

Note: I see over zealous members of any religion as annoying pompous windbags, unrepresentative of their respective religions.

[Mouse]

I respect all paths too, but that doesn't mean i have to agree with them :P

I don't support christian wicca really, and i don't support the idea of christian witches.

Someone mentioned that witches and wiccans use dietys from a range of cultures and times so why not jesus and mary? But i find there is a difference in adopting a diety from a religon Vs meshing two religons together.
Christians believe witches are evil. what more can i say? I mean i don't see the point in ignoring parts of your faith because they are not liked.

Meh, maybe im just biased
~ miriam

[Betah]

I don't support christian wicca really, and i don't support the idea of christian witches.

Someone mentioned that witches and wiccans use dietys from a range of cultures and times so why not jesus and mary? But i find there is a difference in adopting a diety from a religon Vs meshing two religons together.
Christians believe witches are evil. what more can i say? I mean i don't see the point in ignoring parts of your faith because they are not liked.

Meh, maybe im just biased
~ miriam
Believing witches are evil is not a part of all Christianity. Believing that is part of a version of Christianity espoused by narrow minded people (both christian and Pagan) as some fundamental part of Christianity.
Which is to say there is no paradox in calling oneself a Christian Witch/Wiccan/etc.. when other Christians believe witches are evil, because that opinion is anathema to as many forms of Christianity as actually hold it.
Also, no part of my religion is being ignored, even the slightest hint of a contradiction in my beliefs draws me to throughly check every part of the argument against me, until I'm either proved wrong or I find a counter proof.

[MoonKnight]

Believing witches are evil is not a part of all Christianity. Believing that is part of a version of Christianity espoused by narrow minded people (both christian and Pagan) as some fundamental part of Christianity.
Which is to say there is no paradox in calling oneself a Christian Witch/Wiccan/etc.. when other Christians believe witches are evil, because that opinion is anathema to as many forms of Christianity as actually hold it.
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

A variation of this is to be found in every version of the bible. So Christians can pick and choose which part of the bible is to be believed and which not to?

[dreamspirit]

In a perfect world were christ and nature went hand in hand such as many native Americans practice.

[heartandrose]

Does anybody know any good websites on Christian witchcraft? The only things I see on search engines are what Christians view witchcraft to be and some other useless crap.

[StephanieAine]

Okay, I'm peeking in here <g>.

I don't know if this will add anything of interest to the discussion, but since there hasn't been a "plain vanilla Christian" opinion in here, I'll volunteer myself <g>.

Here's my own stance, and from my experience among conservative Christians (not meaning charismatic fundamentalists, but rather conservative Presbyterians - since that's the denomination I come from - although that's not my sole frame of reference), I think I can say that this is a pretty common 'take' on the subject.

That whole not suffering a witch to live business isn't even the point; yes, it's in the Bible, but the sum of the law and the prophets (meaning the Old Testament) is love (when standing upon the New Covenant of the New Testament). What the scripture actually teaches Christians is that we are not supposed to practice witchcraft - not divination, not astrology, not anything in the category of magic. Basically, no "hidden arts."

So, when I think of Christian witchcraft, I see it as something that can't be done *if you're trying to follow things to the letter* - but of course, Christians today fall anywhere along the spectrum from liberal to highly conservative. Some Christians today don't even believe in *Jesus* (which seems odd to me, since that's what the religion is about!) - so it's not much of a surprise that people today are reconsidering how they feel about the Bible and what they, personally, in their own estimation, think of the Bible's teachings.

For some of those people, the decision is to practice both Christianity *and* witchcraft - and they see no contradiction in that.

I personally can't see how it can be reconciled, because the Bible is terribly clear about the prohibition against magic, sorcery, divination, yadda yadda - so I'm not sure how that would be intellectually reasoned out in order to decide that, in fact, it would be an okay thing to do.

****BUT**** - here's the thing. Another teaching that the Bible is tremendously clear about is not judging others, and the Bible also specifies that we will be judged as we judged others, so that stresses the point even more. We *are* allowed to be *discerning* - and in fact we are instructed to be discerning. We're supposed to *see* the difference between Biblical/unBiblical - and to remain on the side of Biblical... but we can't just condemn or hate people who believe different things, because that's not our job. The whole concept of being a Christian is that we 'die to the self' and instead allow Christ to live through us (in other words, give ourselves to Him so that we can do His work on earth).

For Christians, that means realizing that God the Father is the only one who can make the determination about what is in a person's heart, and whether they did right or wrong. We might be able to *see* various things that indicate right or wrong - but we're human. We don't see into the heart the way God does, although the better we try to live by His principles, the easier it might be to refrain from *hurting* someone's heart. And if we attack people because they do something we perceive as unbiblical, then we're definitely not handling things the way God has taught.

Although I can't see anything scripturally that tells me that witchcraft can be done by a Christian within the 'guidelines' so to speak, I absolutely recognize every person's God-given Free Will, and the human right to freedom. That means freedom of religion; freedom to choose. I have no problem at all with telling someone that I'm concerned about them, or explaining why I don't understand that kind of thing (and hopefully dialogue or something in a way where there is mutual edification, or at least some sort of human connection about things) - but no way would I just judge someone as if I had the right - or even the ability - to do such a thing. That would be ridiculous.

Honestly, there really are *plenty* of Christians who know how to be both devout Christians *and* be tolerant of others' religious choices without turning jerky. When I read these things it always sounds like Christians are a bunch of maniacs running around with garlic garlands around their necks carrying wooden stakes to ward off the vampires or something! Really, Christianity is a tremendously beautiful faith - it's just that sometimes *people* can be really mean.

If Aine and others decide to practice Christian witchcraft, they and they alone make that choice - and really, it doesn't matter what any human being says about it. They have free will; they have the ability to decide for themselves what to do, and so that's basically that.

So, just to repeat - the witchcraft issue is not determined by the 'suffer a witch' passage - it is determined by each passage concerning witchcraft/magic/etc. when taken together as a whole in order to understand the big picture. That means both the Old Testament and the New Testament used together.

[Betah]

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

A variation of this is to be found in every version of the bible. So Christians can pick and choose which part of the bible is to be believed and which not to?
There is no picking and choosing necessary, only the decision to take quotes in context, both in terms of the surrounding paragraph and in terms of which book the quote is from, the time its from and the writer. No convenient omitting/disbelieving of text that does not support my views is needed, just the ignoring of obviously biased view points based (however loosely) on the Bible.

[Loopaleigh]

I personally see a deep philosophical conflict between the two belief systems, but for some people it seems to work. Considering the way witchcraft is looked at in the Bible, and polytheism, and considering that Christians are expected to follow/accept the teachings in the Bible, in my opinion, I just don't think the two belief systems can mesh. When I was Christian--and I have a fairly grounded knowledge of the Bible--it would have been unacceptable to claim to be both Christian and a member of Wicca. I suppose that I see "Christian Wicca" as a form of the New Age Christ Consciousness movement.

Yasmine


Yasmine puts it better than I could.
If someone is a Christian Witch, well that I can understand. They are Christian and they practice magic.
But for someone to say they follow Christ as their Saviour AND are Wiccan at the same time makes no sense to me. The two faiths have different theologies and ideaologies.

[Rubber_Piggy]

Well christians are required to be dogmatically monotheist, while wicca implies polytheism. I would therefore argue that you can not be truly both simultaneously.

For example: you could be following the teachings of Christ, but by being polytheistic you cannot call yourself Christian.

[Tangerines]

I thought it was Christian witchcraft, not Wicca, and since witchcraft doesn't require you to hold any beliefs on deities that I'm aware of, I can see how the two could work together.

[Betah]

But for someone to say they follow Christ as their Saviour AND are Wiccan at the same time makes no sense to me. The two faiths have different theologies and ideaologies. There are few, if any, unifying theologies that hold for all Christianity.
Well christians are required to be dogmatically monotheist, while wicca implies polytheism. I would therefore argue that you can not be truly both simultaneously.

For example: you could be following the teachings of Christ, but by being polytheistic you cannot call yourself Christian. Christians are not required to obey any narrow generalization and yes, there is such a thing as a polytheistic Christian.
I thought it was Christian witchcraft, not Wicca, and since witchcraft doesn't require you to hold any beliefs on deities that I'm aware of, I can see how the two could work together. Christian Wicca would be an amalgamation of Christianity and Wicca, although Christian witchcraft also exists.

[Brigid Bishop]

I personally see a deep philosophical conflict between the two belief systems, but for some people it seems to work. Considering the way witchcraft is looked at in the Bible, and polytheism, and considering that Christians are expected to follow/accept the teachings in the Bible, in my opinion, I just don't think the two belief systems can mesh. When I was Christian--and I have a fairly grounded knowledge of the Bible--it would have been unacceptable to claim to be both Christian and a member of Wicca. I suppose that I see "Christian Wicca" as a form of the New Age Christ Consciousness movement.

Yasmine


Witchcraft is not always frowned upon in the Bible. The three Magi, the first three Christians, they were "Magi" Magicians and Astrologers. Magicians in the Bible are respected. Pharoah's who possessed absolute power had Magicians, it was a sign of power and wealth.

God's gifts in the Bible were often Magickal. Look at how Moses parted the sea, with his "staff", or magically charged wand.

I believe that Christianity and Paganism go hand in hand. When the Bible was written they focused on "one god", but the energies are still there. And when you think about it, Christianity is a Polytheic Religion, you have your three deities rolled into one, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Even the Apostolic Creed recognizes all three deities, but magickally calls them one god.

And our Goddesses are The Virgin Mary and Mary Magdelene.

Just my two pennies worth.

[WingedTigerChild]

I think Christianity and Paganism seem at odds at first because when most of us think of Christianity, we think of it in terms of the mainstream. However, a more indepth look into Christianity and it's past reveals that, like someone has already mentioned, the two pretty much go hand-in-hand. For instance, the Gnostics believe(d) in a Goddess (called Sophia), which is a belief that was actually carried over to the very early Catholic church, but Sophia has long been replaced by the virgin Mary in the Catholic world-view. You'd be hard-pressed to ever get a conservative Christian to admit that Christianity was more-so duo/polytheistic in it's early years...which fits prefectly with the Wiccan aspect of things.

[IvyWitch]

I think it's also important to remember that Christianity has evolved in however many hundreds of years into what it is today, and it was very different when the religion was first formed. Early Christians were quite mystical, and catholicism is rife with mystical teachings, a great example of which is the idea of transubstantiation. Christianity, like any other religion is what you make of it. The definition of Christianity is just as personal as the definition of Wicca or Paganism. Why do you think that there are so many different denominations, so many arguments of doctrine among Christians? Despite popular belief, Christianity is not *one* organized religion. It, just like Paganism, is a label that encompasses many different beliefs.

[Kalika]

If a person feels that its the right path for them... then yes.

[Shakyamuni007]

Both Christian Wicca and Christian Witchcraft seem to be a contradiction in terms to me, but if it works for someone, I don't understand why I should have the right to say its wrong. Personally as long as a path works for a person, they have every right in the world to follow it, as long as you don't claim its the only true religion or some similar bullshit, and you are serious about it and aren't just using it as a reason to rebel. It seems to me that if god exists his reality, and the other subjects explored by religion are much too complex for anything created by the human mind to explain, so really you have to study all religions in order to even begin to have an understanding of the spiritual realms, god, etc.

[MoonKnight]

Shinto Muslim, Mormon Hindu, Jewish Sikh. Do these sound odd to anyone?

[Betah]

Shinto Muslim, Mormon Hindu, Jewish Sikh. Do these sound odd to anyone?
I am insufficiently familiar with the given religions or their subgroups to analyse the given query in regards to the case, however, the oddity of any given path does not alter it's plausibility, let alone that of another path.
Which is to state that any extremely unfamiliar view of something will seem odd, however, this does not affect the validity of said view.

[Nuiket]

1. The tendency of certain evangelical Christians to use quotes from the Bible against other religions does not give those religions the right to use quote taken out of context, from a book they don't even believe in and throw them in the faces of a separate group of Christians, who in all likelihood have to put up with the same nonsense from those same evangelical Christians.
2. There is no such thing as normal Christianinty, currently the are more different denominations than could be feasibly counted and the majority of these Christians are not evangelical. To clarify; The average Christian would not consider a verbal barrage of context deficient Bible quotes a valid argument, nor is the average Christian going to forcibly convert anyone.
3. I find that the only serious difference between an evangelical and a over zealous Pagan is the Pagan is more likely to claim, utterly falsely, that they think "all paths are equally valid" in their view whilst trying to berate me into yielding to their views of what is and isn't possible to believe (and not in an all encompassing, happy, five word phrase).

Note: I see over zealous members of any religion as annoying pompous windbags, unrepresentative of their respective religions.

Apperantly You do not deal with what I do. When I say normal Chirstians I reffer to mainly Mormons and Jehono witnesses Now I admit most likely I misspelled both But I'm sure you get which ones I mean No matter where I been while in Arizona Both these groups while no physical harm came upon me There presence And though door to door Insit That if your not apart of there Religion You must be converted Unless you proclaim your With Satin or a Pagan this goes to that note you have though the way they do there coverting to me is still Frocing there Views and ther for is a froce Conversion in my mind!

[Betah]

Apperantly You do not deal with what I do. When I say normal Chirstians I reffer to mainly Mormons and Jehono witnesses Now I admit most likely I misspelled both But I'm sure you get which ones I mean No matter where I been while in Arizona Both these groups while no physical harm came upon me There presence And though door to door Insit That if your not apart of there Religion You must be converted Unless you proclaim your With Satin or a Pagan this goes to that note you have though the way they do there coverting to me is still Frocing there Views and ther for is a froce Conversion in my mind!
Whilst both Mormons and JWs are given to trying to convert everyone (other Christians included) to their particular views, their methods for doing this (loathsome as they are to myself) do not force anyone into anything.
Regardless, I do encounter their persistent attempts to convert others (me included) to their cause, with disturbing regularity, as I maintain contact with both groups.
But ultimately their practices do not alter my point, as they are in no way representative of Christians as a whole, nor is any denomination (or pair of such) representative of Christianity as a whole.
The reason why Evangelicals are sometimes erroneously seen as being representative of christians is that they are vastly more obvious than other Christians, not because they are more numerous, as they are actually a fairly small percent of Christians.
I also deal quite regularly with Pagans who try and convert anyone and everyone, curiously they never get accused of trying to force conversion from Christianity on others, despite their methods amounting to a stinking pile of propaganda that has been sweetened with a few choice tricks.

[Nuiket]

Whilst both Mormons and JWs are given to trying to convert everyone (other Christians included) to their particular views, their methods for doing this (loathsome as they are to myself) do not force anyone into anything.
Regardless, I do encounter their persistent attempts to convert others (me included) to their cause, with disturbing regularity, as I maintain contact with both groups.
But ultimately their practices do not alter my point, as they are in no way representative of Christians as a whole, nor is any denomination (or pair of such) representative of Christianity as a whole.
The reason why Evangelicals are sometimes erroneously seen as being representative of christians is that they are vastly more obvious than other Christians, not because they are more numerous, as they are actually a fairly small percent of Christians.
I also deal quite regularly with Pagans who try and convert anyone and everyone, curiously they never get accused of trying to force conversion from Christianity on others, despite their methods amounting to a stinking pile of propaganda that has been sweetened with a few choice tricks.

I'll give you that but as you just mention if I got this correctly Other Dominations do conversions as well though not the way Mormons ans JW do. True however again with where I've been and other things I've witness Or books on religion Must go into New Age There stuff goes in both the New Age and Religion section of Books stores. Now to others that maybe ok to me I see it as another way of chirstians frocing there views on us. And Other Chirstians Complain if one of our Teen books is placed in The teenInspuration section of a book store Saying that it has no place being there. Again to me this is a froce saying we have no rights mof any sorts and must be converted. Thoughas I did say this my opinion through what I had to deal with and both witness in my State of Arizona!

[Doodlebug]

I respect and support Christian Wicca even though it's not my path.

[Betah]

I'll give you that but as you just mention if I got this correctly Other Dominations do conversions as well though not the way Mormons ans JW do. True however again with where I've been and other things I've witness Or books on religion Must go into New Age There stuff goes in both the New Age and Religion section of Books stores. Now to others that maybe ok to me I see it as another way of chirstians frocing there views on us. And Other Chirstians Complain if one of our Teen books is placed in The teenInspuration section of a book store Saying that it has no place being there. Again to me this is a froce saying we have no rights mof any sorts and must be converted. Thoughas I did say this my opinion through what I had to deal with and both witness in my State of Arizona!
People arguing over which category suits a book most is odd, but ultimately the book shop gets to decide where to place books, so just remember to complain whenever a book is erroneously lumped in the wrong section (especially when trying to find a book you want to buy) and the company will probably place books in the correct sections.
In any case, even if the placement of books in a shop were a form of discrimination the fact of the matter is that many forms of Paganism are considered by the majority of people to be New Age and books should normally be placed where the majority of customers know to look.
Another possible solution is to persistently suggest (using those nice customer suggestion forms) that the book shop change the title of the new age section to better reflect the books actually sold in that section.

[Kern]

Doesnt matter to me one way or the other,if they find solace in it then so be it.

[Tarotboy4]

Whilst both Mormons and JWs are given to trying to convert everyone (other Christians included) to their particular views, their methods for doing this (loathsome as they are to myself) do not force anyone into anything.
Regardless, I do encounter their persistent attempts to convert others (me included) to their cause, with disturbing regularity, as I maintain contact with both groups.
But ultimately their practices do not alter my point, as they are in no way representative of Christians as a whole, nor is any denomination (or pair of such) representative of Christianity as a whole.
The reason why Evangelicals are sometimes erroneously seen as being representative of christians is that they are vastly more obvious than other Christians, not because they are more numerous, as they are actually a fairly small percent of Christians.
I also deal quite regularly with Pagans who try and convert anyone and everyone, curiously they never get accused of trying to force conversion from Christianity on others, despite their methods amounting to a stinking pile of propaganda that has been sweetened with a few choice tricks.

Actually, My great Aunt Betty has found an easy way to get the to leave you alone forever. A way to make them never come to your door ever again (at least it's worked for her.) The next time they come to your door. tell them that you were excomunicated from there group. apparently they can't leave fast enough, and they woun't ask for verification of this.

[moonstone_dreams]

I don't see why anyone who wants to integrate Christianity in their spiritual path necessarily has to follow the Bible to a tee. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible isn't Christianity, and one doesn't have to agree with everything (or even most of) what one reads in the Bible to be a Christian. The Bible is just, more or less, what's left of Christianity after Constantine tampered with it. There were many Christianities before Catholicism became the norm, and I don't see why people who practice Christianity in modern times can't be just as (if not more) diverse.

I hear people say, "Well, Christianity and Wicca are incompatible, because the Bible says ______." Levitican law also says something about handicapped people and people with beards being banned from religious service, but I don't see any Christians following that anymore. The fact is, we might think of Christians as accepting the Bible as the perfect Word of God, but that's not always the case. Depending on the tradition, the Bible is more or less important, and 'solitary practitioners' of Christianity -- you don't have to join a church -- can decide how much weight to give the Bible. A lot of Christian mystics seem to take their experience and nature much more seriously than the Bible... and even Thomas Aquinas said that nature was a second Word of God.

So, of course it's possible to integrate paganism (including Wicca) with Christianity. Creation spirituality, and the work of Matthew Fox (author of One River, Many Wells, Sheer Joy, and Original Blessing) go a long way towards bridging the gap. I'd love to hear other suggestions, but from what I've found, Fox is the most pagan-friendly Christian writer out there... loved by Christians and pagans alike. :)

Peace to the Christians and the Pagans...

[skyeborn_soul]

I don't fully understand how someone can mix a monotheistic male oriented religion with a polytheistic balanced ( to me anyway) one, but as far as my opinion goes, if it satisfies that persons spiritual needs and brings them happiness and comfort without hurting others, I don't see anything wrong with it.

[XxAuroraxX]

no i don't support it really, i will go along with it and help people with their learning. i don't believe you should be able to have a christian-wiccan.....i personally don't think it is right to be involved in 2 religions. it's like trying to mix Jewdaism and Islam...you just can't, because they contradict each other so much. in my opinion you are either christian or you are wiccan. there is no grey area, maybe that is just me being narrow minded, but it is still only an opinion.

[Lilyraine]

I don't believe there christianity can be mixed with wicca. Just doesn't work for meh.

[Betah]

I don't believe you should be able to have a christian-wiccan.....i personally don't think it is right to be involved in 2 religions. it's like trying to mix Jewdaism and Islam...you just can't, because they contradict each other so much. in my opinion you are either christian or you are wiccan. there is no grey area, maybe that is just me being narrow minded, but it is still only an opinion.
Religions aren't discrete entities, plus, only certain forms of Christianity can be said to contradict Wicca.

[Ninjakitten]

i think if you wanna head down the myriad paths that the mixture can lead to, separate yourself by calling yourself something else. ive got no problem with anyone who wants to use magic in a jesus context, for example, but it sure as hell aint christianity or wicca or witchcraft, so why call it that? apples and oranges, ladies and gentlemen.[/QUOTE]


That kind of reminds me of how some people I know support bans on gay marriage. Many would say they'd support a civil union like a marriage if "gays would just call it something else, just don't call it marriage". I do see some conflicts between the Christian and Wiccan religions, but witchcraft is a system of practice, not a religion in and of itself. I'm not looking for a conflict on this, nor am I criticizing. I just thought it was a point worth looking at.

[Morning Star]

if it satisfies that persons spiritual needs and brings them happiness and comfort without hurting others, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Yeah, I think "Christian Wicca" may be the most absurd thing I've ever heard, but hey...whatever floats their boat. Personally, I try to help my friends get as far away from the Abrahamic religions as possible, because I believe they are not merely flawed, but dangerous spiritual paths, that often result in violence, intolerance, fear and paranoia. However, there are plenty of pagans who have truly screwed up beliefs as well and it is true that you can be a kind of Christian without following the dictates of the Bible - however, I also like to point out that you can believe in the divinity of Christ without being a Christian.

[Elderbush]

I just don't understand quite how it works, mixing Wicca with Christianity. On the one hand you have the Christian god who wants to be first and most important, then you take a goddess from another pantheon and in Wicca the gods are supposed to be equal, correct? It seems to me that neither of them are going to be happy with the situation.

[Morning Star]

It does seem a bit absurd. But whatever floats their boats, you know? What they believe doesn't hurt anyone (unless you count the confusion they cause lol). They've every right to their perspective...whatever it is exactly.

[DarkHeart13]

I myself agree with Yasmine too. I've been reading articles on the topic since I heard about it. I personally think people are seeing that christianity is too strict and how wicca is appealing to them more but they are too afraid to just let go of Jesus and so they try to do both. Its like its their security blanket, they want to leave christianity because of all its flaws but are too scared so they try to find a way to mixing the two together although they know it is not possible. I see that the number of christains declining and wiccas climbing. I think as long as they still cling to christianity in one form or another they will never truly be wiccan. I'd like to think I could be open to this new combo, I wouldn't even call it a tradition, like all the normal traditions but I can't help but be dead against it. I do however have no problem with christain withches since that has nothing to do with religion just the craft.
In the Bible when it said scriptures such as, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," I believe it was talking about BIBLICAL witches. A witch and a Wiccan are two different things. God is not against Wicca as a religion, but he is against some aspects of the Craft because in GOD'S view, a witch was someone who was evil. So really, it's saying, don't do evil. I read where God is against astrology and divination if they are used to tell the future. I understand that much because God is the one who is in control of all life forms. He should have a say as to what happens. God wants these events to happen for a reason, good or bad. You learn from all events in your life and to read the future in order to "escape" a certain tragedy is wrong in the eyes of God. How would you get one of life's lessons that God was trying to teach you if you purposefully got rid of an event that was supposed to happen? That's why God is against Witchcraft. When he said he was against Witches, he was specific. Like I stated before he said no divination or astrology to tell the future. Any Christian Wiccan or Witch or whatever wouldn't be going against God's word as long as they didn't try to fortune tell. If you did, then I would say you are a hypocrite and you can't mix the religions. But if you're smart, truly believe in yourself, and know what you're doing, then Christian Witchcraft is possible.
Sorry if I came off as bitchy there...I don't think I did...hope I didn't...lol...just saying how I feel on the subject....
Blessed Be,
Jada Raine

Oh, I forgot...
When I said God was talking about BIBLICAL witches....Biblical as in the sense that Wiccans did not exist. Paganism did. Pagans have been around way longer than Christians, but not WICCA. Times change and I don't think God meant for all his followers to be against Wiccans, only people who fit the definition of a witch in God's point of view, which most certainly is NOT a Wiccan.
Cheers!

[Morning Star]

[font=Comic Sans MS][size=4][color=darkslateblue]In the Bible when it said scriptures such as, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," I believe it was talking about BIBLICAL witches.

Actually it was refereing to anyone who practiced witchcraft. Furthermore - Christians and Jews are told to stone to death anyone that worships any god other than Jehovah.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or you closet friends secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known, gods of the people around you, whether near of far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all of Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again" Deuteronomy 13:6-11.

Any Christian or Jew who worships other gods (minus Christ obviously) are neither Christian or Jew, and they're own family is supposed to murder them with stones according to the Bible. Christianity is a death cult, while the pagan traditions are mostly aimed at celebrating life.

To the Christians here: Is dabbling in paganism worth the horrible death that will be deilvered to you by your spouce or your parents in accordance with your law?

The Bible is very clear that paganism is evil and the domain of the devil - so why would any Christian get involved with paganism? I don't understand where these so-called Christians come from, but I have yet to see them show any real commonality with the rest of the pagan community.

[DarkHeart13]

Actually it was refereing to anyone who practiced witchcraft. Furthermore - Christians and Jews are told to stone to death anyone that worships any god other than Jehovah.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or you closet friends secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known, gods of the people around you, whether near of far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all of Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again" Deuteronomy 13:6-11.

Any Christian or Jew who worships other gods (minus Christ obviously) are neither Christian or Jew, and they're own family is supposed to murder them with stones according to the Bible. Christianity is a death cult, while the pagan traditions are mostly aimed at celebrating life.

To the Christians here: Is dabbling in paganism worth the horrible death that will be deilvered to you by your spouce or your parents in accordance with your law?

The Bible is very clear that paganism is evil and the domain of the devil - so why would any Christian get involved with paganism? I don't understand where these so-called Christians come from, but I have yet to see them show any real commonality with the rest of the pagan community.
This is why I never believed in Trinity. Jesus, to me, was a kind gentle sould who was out to teach the good things in life. HE celebrated life. Jesus understood flaws and JESUS forgives. GOD however is another story. God to me, expects everyone to be perfect. He is also the king of contradictions. Stone your family yet in the ten commandments Thou shalt not kill. God seems to me like someone who is ALWAYS unsure of himself. He's like Kerry, always changing his beliefs. No wonder Christians are interested in Paganism. Geeze, spare these people, will ya? Christianity ****s some people up..seriously. Yet surprisingly, it can do good to some. I still worship God because it is HE who created me and I feel I owe him something. But just because I respect him doesn't mean that I have to agree with EVERYTHING he says, especially when it goes against other statements he says. I believe in the Goddess too. But that's not worshiping any other deities because God has more than one face. He has to have a female side to him or how else would he have known what his created women would look like? In my beliefs, it is God who holds the wrath and the Goddess who holds "Da Love." God was pretty much against anything and everything at certain points of the Bible. You can't take it all word for word. You'd be a living case of hypocrit-itus then......
Sorry to all you Christians I'm disappointing. This is just how I believe. I love God, but he has a lot of shit to sort out..............
Blessed Be,
Jada Raine

[Morning Star]

I believe in the Goddess too. But that's not worshiping any other deities because God has more than one face.

That is not in the Bible is it?

[Betah]

Actually it was refereing to anyone who practiced witchcraft. Furthermore - Christians and Jews are told to stone to death anyone that worships any god other than Jehovah.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or you closet friends secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known, gods of the people around you, whether near of far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all of Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again" Deuteronomy 13:6-11.
I hate to have to point this out, but Deuteronomy is Old Testament and removed from importance in the New Testament , by that nice little "Love you neighbor as yourself" rule.
Any Christian or Jew who worships other gods (minus Christ obviously) are neither Christian or Jew, and they're own family is supposed to murder them with stones according to the Bible. Christianity is a death cult, while the pagan traditions are mostly aimed at celebrating life.
This is not the case and the summation of all Christianity as a death cult is plainly wrong, as the entire thing is about eternal life.
To the Christians here: Is dabbling in paganism worth the horrible death that will be deilvered to you by your spouce or your parents in accordance with your law?

The Bible is very clear that paganism is evil and the domain of the devil - so why would any Christian get involved with paganism? I don't understand where these so-called Christians come from, but I have yet to see them show any real commonality with the rest of the pagan community.The Bible is rarely clear on anything, unless you read beyond the Old Testament. They don't show commonality, because if they even reveal they are still Christians they usually end up spending hours arguing Bible verse with a hypocrite who doesn't even believe in it.
That is not in the Bible is it?Nor is a death cult, Matthew 22:29-36 makes this absolutely clear.
In summary; what Jesus said can be assumed to be closer to the word of God, than the laws contained in an OT verse.

[Morning Star]

I'm sorry. I don't believe in Eternal Life. I also don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. So, understand, that Abrahamic religions do seem like death cults to me, being that there is life and death - Afterlife is just another term for death in my book. Its' an ideal people use to comfort their fear of death...it is also a way of demoting the importance of life on earth: i.e. "Who cares, I'll live forever in heaven." Jesus Christ on the Cross, Terrorists committing Suicide, Old Testament law - all evidence that Abrahamic Traditions are death cults. I can show you these - you can't show me your so called afterlife.

I suppose I understand where you are coming from and so long as so called Christian Wiccans don't attempt to speak for non-Christian pagans, we'll all live happily ever after - I just find this all a little too "far out" for me to stomach.

Also - Jesus did say that he was the only way to heaven and Paul is pretty clear that you shouldn't be worshiping other gods. I just don't see how anyone who reads and believes in the Bible would want anything to do with religious traditions that celebrate life and the natural state of man. I was raised Christian and have studied the Bible intensely. I was even set to go to Talbot Theological Seminary. So I'm not trying to say that Christianity is a "stupid" religion - I'm just saying that I find the Bible to be a complete contradiction of everything I believe...it is evil to me.

[Betah]

I'm sorry. I don't believe in Eternal Life. I also don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. So, understand, that Abrahamic religions do seem like death cults to me, being that there is life and death - Afterlife is just another term for death in my book. Its' an ideal people use to comfort their fear of death...it is also a way of demoting the importance of life on earth: i.e. "Who cares, I'll live forever in heaven." Jesus Christ on the Cross, Terrorists committing Suicide, Old Testament law - all evidence that Abrahamic Traditions are death cults. I can show you these - you can't show me your so called afterlife.

I suppose I understand where you are coming from and so long as so called Christian Wiccans don't attempt to speak for non-Christian pagans, we'll all live happily ever after - I just find this all a little too "far out" for me to stomach. I'm going to have to play wise monkeys:seehearsp about that first bit, as I need to be somewhere, but remember that all religions make some claims that are unprovable. Also Christian Wiccans aren't going to have time to speak for anyone, what with all the defending of their views they have to do (I have it bad enough just for being Christian and doing things that Wiccans consider magic(k) ).

[DarkHeart13]

That is not in the Bible is it?
It is in the Bible that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, yet they are separated as the trinity because of God's different personas. Ever heard of Christian Mysticism? Like the Holy Grail thing and all that? Well, let it be a myth that God is a woman or whatever....Here's what I believe...God has a face of ALL living things...therefore, he has many parts to him. As for the HUMAN parts, he has himself as God, his son Jesus, the Holy Spirit, he has himself as the Goddess.....why the Goddess? Because there are females and there must be SOMETHING to represent them. God can be anything he wants at any time he wants. He takes form of the Goddess when I'm drawing down the moon....He takes form of Jesus when I'm praying through him.....God is so powerful that he is all these things, I just choose to acknowledge it in a different way. Just because most Christians don't recognize God in his feminine form doesn't mean it's not there.

And what I said before, about God has a lot of shit to work out...I was wrong. I've come to a realization: The Bible has MANY contradictions AND GOD did not write that Bible. It is a book that has been translated and misinterpreted so many times that it couldn't possibly be accurate. I'm not saying take it all in as a grain of salt, but you can't go word for word. The scripture you mentioned was in the OT. Christians today no longer live by the OT. They live by the NT. They follow teachings of CHRIST. Christ never taught those evil things God spoke of in the OT because he wasn't around then. AND, you know why I think there are so many contradictions? This is gonna sound crazy, I know, but just let me vent...lol

God made so many contradictions because he felt differently at different times, during different situations. So he had his chosen ones to write about his feelings at these certain times. No one can help how they feel and that's just how God saw things. God knew there would be too many holes in the Bible and he thought of that as a good thing. Know why? He wanted his people to THINK FOR THEMSELVES. Yes, they should abide by God's will, but with how THEY percieve his teachings in the Bible. In the end we are all on our OWN individual path and no one is gonna get us to Heaven or wherever you plan on going but YOU. God's teachings may have been for all of us, but they weren't intended to be exactly the same for everyone. If you're on your own path, then what it comes down to is what YOU believe. No one else's beliefs matter. And God wanted people to take note of his feelings and apply them to the way they lived their life, but he doesn't want us doing something we feel isn't right, such as stoning your family member to death. That's why God gave us a conscience and FREE WILL. We should strive to make the BEST decisions in life that we can and if we screw up, God's not going to punish us, not if we truly believe in our hearts that we were doing the right thing and we did it in honor of God.
Anyway, that's just how I believe....If you don't feel the same way that's okay. I'm very serious about my path and I didn't come to Paganism to get the easy way out of Christianity. I honestly feel this is right for me and no one is going to make me think otherwise. If I listened to all you people who think Christian Witchcraft is wrong then I wouldn't be as sure of my beliefs as I'm saying. Believe what you want. At least I have beliefs which so many people do not.
If you're trying to prove me wrong it won't work. If you're trying to educate me, thank you.
Blessed Be,
Jada Raine

[moonstone_dreams]

I don't fully understand how someone can mix a monotheistic male oriented religion with a polytheistic balanced ( to me anyway) one, but as far as my opinion goes, if it satisfies that persons spiritual needs and brings them happiness and comfort without hurting others, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Well, there are *many* interpretations of Christianity, and it's not necessarily a male-oriented faith, even though the vast majority of mainstream sects do take it that way. Hebrew words for God in the Bible are sometimes feminine. There were the gnostics (and many other groups, I'm sure) that stressed the importance of the feminine.

My point is, if someone is open enough to combine pagan ideas with Christian ones, then that's also the sort of person who's likely to look beyond the mainstream interpretations of Christianity. Christianity *has* been patriarchal and hierarchical, but it doesn't have to be that way. I'm happy to see people who are opening new paths... like people on this site... and Matthew Fox, the episcopal priest, who talks about Goddess and the Divine Mother.

[Betah]

Also - Jesus did say that he was the only way to heaven and Paul is pretty clear that you shouldn't be worshiping other gods. I just don't see how anyone who reads and believes in the Bible would want anything to do with religious traditions that celebrate life and the natural state of man. I was raised Christian and have studied the Bible intensely. I was even set to go to Talbot Theological Seminary. So I'm not trying to say that Christianity is a "stupid" religion - I'm just saying that I find the Bible to be a complete contradiction of everything I believe...it is evil to me.
1. Not all Christians believe in the Bible and the majority do not believe it is the absolute and literal word of God.
2. There are many, many ways of interpreting that particular verse, most that do not assume antagonism to other religions do not decry them.
3. Paul can say what he likes, Christians don't have to agree.
4. Intense Bible study rarely forms anything other than a rigid, dogmatic interpretation of what Christianity is; those who call themselves Christian Wiccans are highly unlikely to care about dogma, which isn't inalienable word of God.
5. What makes you think it's evil (beyond a few narrow minded people with loud mouths)?

[Morning Star]

1. Not all Christians believe in the Bible and the majority do not believe it is the absolute and literal word of God.
2. There are many, many ways of interpreting that particular verse, most that do not assume antagonism to other religions do not decry them.
3. Paul can say what he likes, Christians don't have to agree.
4. Intense Bible study rarely forms anything other than a rigid, dogmatic interpretation of what Christianity is; those who call themselves Christian Wiccans are highly unlikely to care about dogma, which isn't inalienable word of God.
5. What makes you think it's evil (beyond a few narrow minded people with loud mouths)?

1. What is Christianity if not an adherence to the principles and scriptures in the Bible? I understand that many don't take everything literally - by most Christians believe most of the stuff in the Bible.

2. The Old Testament is very clear about being antagonistic toward other faiths and gods.

3. Paul's influence on Christianity is almost absolute - how you can be a Christian and not follow the teachings of Paul is beyond me. In fact, I would say that if you don't buy into Paul's Ideology... you are not Christian, you're Gnostic or something along those lines. Furthermore, if you don't agree with paul, why would you even want to call yourself a Christian?

4. Intense study of the Bible also produces knowledge. :)

5. The Bible and Christianity is evil, in my opinion for several reasons.

First, there are countless verses that support violence and the suppression of women. Second, there are countless accounts of violence actually being committed. Third, the Bible is an argument against Man as being a part of nature. Four, the Bible is filled with fear, anger, self-hatred, helplessness, weakness, sacrifice, submissiveness and so forth. I honestly view the Abrhamic religions as a kind of sickness or a kind of self-hatred, that has created a perfect God that has nothing to do whatsoever with our experience of this world. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim God is wrathful and jealous, often insecure and sadistic. Fifth, the Bible teaches people that money and knowledge are evil, whereas I believe that money and knowledge are virtues. Sixth, the Abrahamic religions have done much to suppress the instincts and intuitions - they say that human nature is evil, sinful...I think the opposite is true. I believe the natural human condition is virtuous and that the Abrahamic conditions are evil. I could go on and on...but its useless. I'll not be able to convince you. If you buy into Christian thinking, then you've already accepted a paradigm of faith that cannot be reasoned with. My religious beliefs are based on knowledge and observation, not faith. We just come at things from very different points of view, I suppose. I suppose that I came into the pagan community to get away from Christians and that kind of religious thinking...to find Christian mystics on a site like this just feels like an invasion of my privacy. I understand that Christian Wiccans have every right to their beliefs and ideologies and every right to access to the pagan community - I just dislike it personally.

[Betah]

1. What is Christianity if not an adherence to the principles and scriptures in the Bible? I understand that many don't take everything literally - by most Christians believe most of the stuff in the Bible.

2. The Old Testament is very clear about being antagonistic toward other faiths and gods.
3. Paul's influence on Christianity is almost absolute - how you can be a Christian and not follow the teachings of Paul is beyond me. In fact, I would say that if you don't buy into Paul's Ideology... you are not Christian, you're Gnostic or something along those lines. Furthermore, if you don't agree with paul, why would you even want to call yourself a Christian?
It's an adherence to the principles Christ gave us, that's why it's not called Paulanity. Gnostic Christianity has been discussed in previous threads. I consider my own and thousands of strange forms of Christianity to be such because that is what (irrational discrimination aside) they are.
4. Intense study of the Bible also produces knowledge. :)
Intense study seems to have failed to give you a grasp of Christianity outside of the very narrow view espoused by the arrogant few.
5. The Bible and Christianity is evil, in my opinion for several reasons.

First, there are countless verses that support violence and the suppression of women. Second, there are countless accounts of violence actually being committed. Third, the Bible is an argument against Man as being a part of nature. Four, the Bible is filled with fear, anger, self-hatred, helplessness, weakness, sacrifice, submissiveness and so forth. I honestly view the Abrhamic religions as a kind of sickness or a kind of self-hatred, that has created a perfect God that has nothing to do whatsoever with our experience of this world. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim God is wrathful and jealous, often insecure and sadistic. Fifth, the Bible teaches people that money and knowledge are evil, whereas I believe that money and knowledge are virtues. Money a virtue? Sixth, the Abrahamic religions have done much to suppress the instincts and intuitions - they say that human nature is evil, sinful...I think the opposite is true. I believe the natural human condition is virtuous and that the Abrahamic conditions are evil. I could go on and on...but its useless. I'll not be able to convince you. If you buy into Christian thinking, then you've already accepted a paradigm of faith that cannot be reasoned with. My religious beliefs are based on knowledge and observation, not faith.As are mine, point one is that rational thought is critical to making sure I am not being led by an emotional rant. We just come at things from very different points of view, I suppose. I suppose that I came into the pagan community to get away from Christians and that kind of religious thinking...to find Christian mystics on a site like this just feels like an invasion of my privacy.Privacy on a public forum? I understand that Christian Wiccans have every right to their beliefs and ideologies and every right to access to the pagan community - I just dislike it personally.
and apparently decry it with all the zeal and fervor of those people who made Christianity intolerable for you.

[DarkHeart13]

1. What is Christianity if not an adherence to the principles and scriptures in the Bible? I understand that many don't take everything literally - by most Christians believe most of the stuff in the Bible.

2. The Old Testament is very clear about being antagonistic toward other faiths and gods.

3. Paul's influence on Christianity is almost absolute - how you can be a Christian and not follow the teachings of Paul is beyond me. In fact, I would say that if you don't buy into Paul's Ideology... you are not Christian, you're Gnostic or something along those lines. Furthermore, if you don't agree with paul, why would you even want to call yourself a Christian?

4. Intense study of the Bible also produces knowledge. :)

5. The Bible and Christianity is evil, in my opinion for several reasons.

First, there are countless verses that support violence and the suppression of women. Second, there are countless accounts of violence actually being committed. Third, the Bible is an argument against Man as being a part of nature. Four, the Bible is filled with fear, anger, self-hatred, helplessness, weakness, sacrifice, submissiveness and so forth. I honestly view the Abrhamic religions as a kind of sickness or a kind of self-hatred, that has created a perfect God that has nothing to do whatsoever with our experience of this world. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim God is wrathful and jealous, often insecure and sadistic. Fifth, the Bible teaches people that money and knowledge are evil, whereas I believe that money and knowledge are virtues. Sixth, the Abrahamic religions have done much to suppress the instincts and intuitions - they say that human nature is evil, sinful...I think the opposite is true. I believe the natural human condition is virtuous and that the Abrahamic conditions are evil. I could go on and on...but its useless. I'll not be able to convince you. If you buy into Christian thinking, then you've already accepted a paradigm of faith that cannot be reasoned with. My religious beliefs are based on knowledge and observation, not faith. We just come at things from very different points of view, I suppose. I suppose that I came into the pagan community to get away from Christians and that kind of religious thinking...to find Christian mystics on a site like this just feels like an invasion of my privacy. I understand that Christian Wiccans have every right to their beliefs and ideologies and every right to access to the pagan community - I just dislike it personally.
I haven't read all the posts regarding to yours but I just saw this and so I thought I'd respond. Christians no longer follow the Old Testament. When Jesus was crucified, the New Testament was written as a new way of life. In the Old Testament God was harsh because he was afraid his people would betray him again. When Jesus was born they followed CHRIST'S teachings more than that of God because Christ was the Messiah, the new teacher, the new God manifested in the flesh. The OT is still a part of the Bible to understand the history of the people and how it's teachings came to be to what they are today. And a lot of Christians don't take the Bible too literal because there are so many different versions, so many new scriptures found and so many that are to be found.....Christianity is meant to be simple for an idiot could do it. With all these new discoverings and such it is becoming harder to be a Christian so now Christians rely on their faith in God to do the right thing instead of reading a holy book that may not be so holy after all. God is in the spirit. Words mean nothing. It's how he moves within you.

[IvyWitch]

I suppose that I came into the pagan community to get away from Christians and that kind of religious thinking...to find Christian mystics on a site like this just feels like an invasion of my privacy. I understand that Christian Wiccans have every right to their beliefs and ideologies and every right to access to the pagan community - I just dislike it personally.

Ok, a few things here that I don't quite understand..

You came to this forum, or you became Pagan to get away from Christians and fundamentalism? Well, if that's the case then I think I ought to tell you that there are Pagan fundies too.

Second.....you're saying that Christians are intolerant and narrowminded, but the fact that a Christian can get things out of Paganism and want to talk to Pagans on the internet bothers you. So, please explain to me how you're being any LESS narrowminded and intolerant than the Christians you seem to despise so much. Besides, how much edification can you get in your own faith if you only talk to people you agree with?

And, I agree with Betah. This is the internet, and this a public foru