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Haerfest Leah
August 2nd, 2004, 02:23 PM
Do you support Christain-Wicca?

NivekDrgnMage
August 2nd, 2004, 02:25 PM
IT is not the path I follow, but as a path for others I support it. As I support any path. :)

WinterTree
August 2nd, 2004, 02:26 PM
Yes, I do support it. If it works for you, go for it.

Yasmine Galenorn
August 2nd, 2004, 02:34 PM
I personally see a deep philosophical conflict between the two belief systems, but for some people it seems to work. Considering the way witchcraft is looked at in the Bible, and polytheism, and considering that Christians are expected to follow/accept the teachings in the Bible, in my opinion, I just don't think the two belief systems can mesh. When I was Christian--and I have a fairly grounded knowledge of the Bible--it would have been unacceptable to claim to be both Christian and a member of Wicca. I suppose that I see "Christian Wicca" as a form of the New Age Christ Consciousness movement.

Yasmine

Haerfest Leah
August 2nd, 2004, 02:50 PM
I myself agree with Yasmine too. I've been reading articles on the topic since I heard about it. I personally think people are seeing that christianity is too strict and how wicca is appealing to them more but they are too afraid to just let go of Jesus and so they try to do both. Its like its their security blanket, they want to leave christianity because of all its flaws but are too scared so they try to find a way to mixing the two together although they know it is not possible. I see that the number of christains declining and wiccas climbing. I think as long as they still cling to christianity in one form or another they will never truly be wiccan. I'd like to think I could be open to this new combo, I wouldn't even call it a tradition, like all the normal traditions but I can't help but be dead against it. I do however have no problem with christain withches since that has nothing to do with religion just the craft.

Isil Darkmoon
August 2nd, 2004, 03:18 PM
I stuck a poll in here for you, seapearls. The chocies I added were those I could think of; if you'd like them changed, please PM me.

Aine of the Fae
August 2nd, 2004, 03:25 PM
Christian Witchcraft, while not easy, is doable. However, Christian Wicca would be much more difficult because they are two specific religions, however, again, it's doable. I used to believe it wasn't, but then I actually saw it done, and it worked for that person, so who am I to judge.

If you are truly interested in Christian Witchcraft? Here's a few threads for you:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57104
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57475
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=56943

And if you look in my signature, there is a link to a new class I'm teaching on Christian Witchcraft.

punxzen
August 2nd, 2004, 03:33 PM
how about those christians who formed their close spiritual understanding and relationship with God, but then decided to shirk the dogma and doctrine of the church/bible, and adopt the goddess and wiccan teachings? i think that would be christian wicca. or if i decided that i was going to be wiccan, my christian spirituality would have no conflict with it. personally im more interested in hermetic magic when it comes to the magical side of my spirituality, but if wicca suits the person, and they still love their christian spirituality, i see no conflict. unless of course the person wants to cling to dogma.

Haerfest Leah
August 2nd, 2004, 03:34 PM
I stuck a poll in here for you, seapearls. The chocies I added were those I could think of; if you'd like them changed, please PM me.

Hey thanks that looks good. Not sure what I did wrong but I'll try not to let it happen again. LOL

Shanti
August 2nd, 2004, 03:52 PM
Why cant a person believe in the Christian God and anything else they want to. Who said you can only believe in God if you believe in the bible that was written by man?
Who writes the rules, man or God. We can only take the word of man that he is guided by God. So, since man is deceitful at times, can a person believe in God without the belief in books? I say yes.

How about equal oportunity for whatever gods you want to believe in? The only limits are those placed by man. I think if God had a problem with a person, he would let that person know!!!

I personally dont feel that a person can judge what another wants to believe in when it comes to faith.

Aine of the Fae
August 2nd, 2004, 04:02 PM
Very well put Shanti!

WolfWonderess
August 2nd, 2004, 04:18 PM
It doesn't matter if someone's spiritual path makes sense to you or not. The fact is, a person's spirituality is between themselves and their deity(s), if they follow deities, and if there's a conflict, they'll be made aware of it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Shanti! ^_^

CajunLady
August 2nd, 2004, 04:22 PM
It doesn't matter if someone's spiritual path makes sense to you or not. The fact is, a person's spirituality is between themselves and their deity(s), if they follow deities, and if there's a conflict, they'll be made aware of it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Shanti! ^_^
I agree with WolfWonderess and Shanti.

I am also taking Aine's Christian Witchcraft class to learn how it's different and similar. I don't disagree with or dislike any path--Pagan, Christian, etc. I only dislike and disagree with any forceful shoving of a path down my throat!

Brinclhof
August 2nd, 2004, 05:00 PM
I don't know enough about wicca to say if Christian wicca is possible. I believe it is possible ot have christian witches and I am a Christo-pagan.

Gede
August 3rd, 2004, 05:58 AM
MM~

I personally think people are seeing that christianity is too strict and how wicca is appealing to them more but they are too afraid to just let go of Jesus and so they try to do both. Its like its their security blanket, they want to leave christianity because of all its flaws but are too scared so they try to find a way to mixing the two together although they know it is not possible.

Actually I disagree with that considering that Christianity is a valid system and just as flawed as any other religion. I also believe that faith and devotion in Jesus Christ is a sincere and applicable pathway to spiritual fulfillment. After all there are many underlying commonalities between the story of Jesus (birth, adolescence, teaching, crucifixion and resurrection) and the various sacrifical, vegetation deities of the early Pagan religions.

I have great respect for an individual who is willing to sacrifice their humility to follow the path that is their's.

Namaste, Gede...

Elfa Wylde
August 3rd, 2004, 06:48 AM
I personally see a deep philosophical conflict between the two belief systems, but for some people it seems to work. Considering the way witchcraft is looked at in the Bible, and polytheism, and considering that Christians are expected to follow/accept the teachings in the Bible, in my opinion, I just don't think the two belief systems can mesh. When I was Christian--and I have a fairly grounded knowledge of the Bible--it would have been unacceptable to claim to be both Christian and a member of Wicca. I suppose that I see "Christian Wicca" as a form of the New Age Christ Consciousness movement.

Yasmine


yeah! What she said!

equinox2
August 3rd, 2004, 12:06 PM
I agree with much of the oft-quoted post by Yamsine, however, I feel it is important to point out that what we call “Christianity” today is only one form of Christianity. The one form we as familiar with today eradicated the others by around 400 CE. The other Christianities also had their own scripture, and what we call the “bible” is just the scripture of that one form of Christianity that won out (much of the other scripture was lost or destroyed). As a result, yes, Yasmine, there are many inherent conflicts between the Bible and Wicca (or anything else), but one can be Christian even if one rejects the entire Bible. So one could be a Gnostic Christian, or a Montanist Christian, etc. If that is done, then all the conflicts with the Bible aren’t relevant.

So maybe I’d say it is “difficult” to be a Biblical Wiccan, but to be a Christian Wiccan, well, there is more room for agreement there. Even for a Bible-based approach, however, by picking different parts of the Bible a person could do anything.

Flar's Freyja
August 4th, 2004, 02:06 AM
Once I got over my initial anger at Christianity, I actually started returning to some of my Catholic beliefs when I found that many of the Catholic saints are not just comparable to pagan gods and goddesses - they are one and the same.

While I don't buy the salvation story, I now see Christ as a god in his own right, and the Blessed Virgin is one of my patron goddesses.

The irony in Christian Wicca is that the Bible is actually full of magic and divination, so those on this path may actually be practicing the way it was intended. Something to think about.

rain_fallen_tears
August 4th, 2004, 03:17 AM
I chose that I couldn't make sense of Christian Wicca, mostly because of the option below it, the contradiction between Wicca and Christianity, two completely seperate things it seems to me. But I could be very wrong :bigredblu ....I do understand Christian witchcraft and completelty support it. I myself am not, but what right would that give me to look down upon it!? I'm just happy when people are completely sure of their faith, and don't insult anyone elses.;)

Haerfest Leah
August 4th, 2004, 09:44 AM
The irony in Christian Wicca is that the Bible is actually full of magic and divination, so those on this path may actually be practicing the way it was intended. Something to think about.

Thats a way to look at it. Almost like the story just got twisted up badly.

I've never been angry at Christianity but I just have this feeling towards it I can't describe. I also support christain witchcraft and don't deny there ever was a guy names Jesus, I just think he was made out to be way more than he was. Blown out of proportion as they say. Like in Buddhism they had Buddha which was a regular guy who did great things but they don't worship him as a god they just try to live their life like he did as an example. I think Jesus needs to be regardedas the same way. Maybe some do look at him that way but I never saw it.

fay
August 4th, 2004, 06:35 PM
i agree with that. i totally think that jesus existed. i think that he sounds like a cool guy with a lot of great ideas. pity some people didnt listen.
blessed be

havent voted as am not sure. i think of christianity as believing in one god and wicca as believing in the goddess and god, so that kind of conflicts but im not really sure.

Strawberry Bounce
August 5th, 2004, 02:21 AM
I respect and support Christian Wicca even if it's not my path.

Dorchadas Siofra
August 5th, 2004, 09:45 PM
IT is not the path I follow, but as a path for others I support it. As I support any path. :)

*nods in agreement* Who am I to decide if something works or not? if something is right or wrong? if someone can make it work for them and it's what fits them best, why can it not be possible?

Pan
August 6th, 2004, 10:11 PM
I picked "I am a Christian Witch, but not a Christian Wiccan."

It's not so hard to see how they can mesh, and Aine of the Fae's Christian Witchcraft class brought me out of my spiritual slump of 2 years when nothing else could. I feel a very strong calling toward it and feel comfortable with it.

Yes, there are some hurdles I'm working on regarding my past experiences with Christianity. I'm just willing to work past them, crawl over them, with Aine's helping hand. As well as the rest of the class. We can build a human pyramid and get over that hurdle as one!

So, yes. I support the union.

MystickalMe
August 6th, 2004, 10:20 PM
I personally don't understand, I want to I suppose on some levels, but I don't... however I do support it! Heck I will support anything so long as people are honest with themselves about their beliefs!

charmedkisses1
August 7th, 2004, 01:09 AM
I picked the "I get the Christian witches, but not Wiccans" one... bc I honestly don't get it :lol:

ShinningStar_13
August 7th, 2004, 02:29 AM
Though some say the religions have a conflict of interests I do not see this. I would definately call myself a "Christian Wicca" because I believe in aspects of both religions, and when it comes right down to it both involve the worship of good, and share simmiliar ethics (when you reduce both to their raw, primative cores). At least, that is how I see it.

gwendar
August 7th, 2004, 04:04 PM
I respect and support it. It's probably not for me, but if it works for some people, great!!

barlitone
August 10th, 2004, 06:37 PM
The way I see it, a Christian Wiccan shouldn't be much different than a... uh, regular Wiccan? :kooky:

Many Wiccans I know, at one point or another, work with various dieties in a wide variety of pantheons - Isis, Cerridwen, Dionysus, Brigid, etc. - why not Mary, Jesus, and the like? Why would these particular ones be off-limits?

I've heard this topic come up in every list I've ever been on and every forum I've seen. And, I always say that I to believe it's as valid as my path even though, to me, it's more like Wiccan Christianity than Christian Wicca. Within the strict confines of mainstream Christianity, it's tough to be a Wiccan. But, given the somewhat unique view of diety we pagans enjoy, being Wiccan - or any flavor of pagan - and working with Judeo-Chrisitan dieties in ritual (or whatever you're doing) should not be a problem.

Just my two cents. :eyebrow:

Pol
August 11th, 2004, 01:07 AM
I'm a Christian Pagan, but that wasn't on the list, so I chose christian witch.

I find the idea of Christianity being a security blanket a bit unfair and almost hurtful (if I was the kind of person who gets hurt, I would be).
When I tried to pull away from Christianity, I became connected to the God thereof so strongly I cannot describe it. He became so real to me when the other gods that be showed themselves to me. I was no longer believing in some secret God far away, I was believing in a being that had many more just like him.
I would not judge the emotions of others so easily.

I'm sure there are those who were raised catholic (I find catholic guilt to be much stronger than others) fearing damnation if they turn from Christianity, but I'd not go so far as to say that that's even a majority of the Christian-pagans out there.

{Tigress}
August 12th, 2004, 01:21 PM
I respect everyone's beliefs, so yes, even though I am not a Christain-Wiccan, I do respect those who are.

dr_zeus440
August 13th, 2004, 05:37 PM
i went with contradiction in terms, and im not gunna argue this point beyond this post because it bores me to tears already. christianity is one thing, wicca/witchcraft is another. some parts of both of them contradict some parts in the other. by mixing them, you change one or the other and so its not christianity or wicca/witchcraft. i think if you wanna head down the myriad paths that the mixture can lead to, separate yourself by calling yourself something else. ive got no problem with anyone who wants to use magic in a jesus context, for example, but it sure as hell aint christianity or wicca or witchcraft, so why call it that? apples and oranges, ladies and gentlemen.

EclecticDream
August 13th, 2004, 10:17 PM
I just don't see how the 2 could ever work. Christianity is blatantly opposed to witchcraft, or the worship of any other gods, for that matter. I could see a Wiccan who honors Christ in their own way, but would that make them Christian? *Shrug* That doesn't seem possible to me.

But, to each his own. I will never condemn someone for following such a path.

ap Dafydd
August 14th, 2004, 02:23 PM
I just don't see how the 2 could ever work. Christianity is blatantly opposed to witchcraft, or the worship of any other gods, for that matter. I could see a Wiccan who honors Christ in their own way, but would that make them Christian? *Shrug* That doesn't seem possible to me.

But, to each his own. I will never condemn someone for following such a path.

Might not condemn them, just wish they'd go away and do their Christ thing somewhere that Pagans aren't.

I do think it's a contradiction in terms. Wicca is a religion which is specifically (by definition) different from Christianity. Christianity is a religion whose bible has certain things to say about most of the practices of Wicca.

If someone thinks they can be a Christian and still do things like witchcraft, divination, and the like, then it's not for me to say whether they can or can't. I'm a Pagan, and I can only speak for what Pagans do. Go and post your topic on a Christian site and see what they say.

Pol
August 14th, 2004, 02:28 PM
Posting on a Christian board won't do much good. They'd be vehemently against it, I can assure you (as I visit many).

The idea behind my own Christian-Pagan oxymoronic religion is that - given that the Bible is very old and has been translated many times by many people, and still ultimately a human text - I can choose what to believe of it.

I'm not sure about it mixing with Wicca, however, as I am not a wiccan and have never felt the desire to study the beliefs thereof very much.

In Christianity, there are more denominations than one could ever dream of poking with a stick. Therefor, one can be whatever one wants and still say it's Christianity, if they follow Christ.

Aine of the Fae
August 14th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Very well said wicce, very well said!

Pol
August 16th, 2004, 03:04 PM
Actually, there have been people much more androgynous than Christ. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that he wasn't. He's what men SHOULD be, if they weren't too busy guarding their manhood from the evils of homosexuality (emotions).
I tend to think of Christ more as the 'sitting around with the guys' kind of man, as most of his life was spent chilling out with his disciples ;)

Anyway, I was originally posting to say something else:
To be fair, the bible never says women should not speak (in terms of sermons, teaching, that sort of thing) in church. The 'church' set up was drastically different from what we now have.
There was a problem of the women yelling across to the men (if I remember correctly, to ask them if something was true or so), from their little service area, and they were told to remain silent and ask their husbands when they got home so as not to disturb the others worshiping/teaching/whatevering.

However, your point is still valid. For instance, 'preachers' should be the husband of one wife and successfully have raised a family before leading a church - for how can one lead a church if they've not proven they can lead a family (the same as a church body)?
I've found that most preachers tend to have started right out of seminary (seminary! ugh. i can't stand the thought of it)..

bshore
August 16th, 2004, 05:38 PM
I think Christains would have a problem with Christo-Wiccans because Christains profess theirs to be the one, true, right way. To be a christian, you have to accept that Jesus was the son of God, and came to earth to save our human souls from damnation. If a Wiccan believes this, then I would wonder how it meshes with the reverence for nature and non-belief in hell that most Wiccans have.

If, however, you forget the fundamental teachings of conservative Christianity, and want to love Jesus and revere him as a diety or other holy person while practicing Wicca, I think that would work just fine. Just keep in mind Christians still wouldn't agree with your faith.

Christian witchcraft I see no conflict with, so I chose the option to respect and support it, but don't choose to follow it myself.

Grey
August 17th, 2004, 01:35 AM
*Shrugs* I put other... Ive only talked to a couple Christian wiccans so I really cant say much. I can put in a few things like the fact that there are purposeful mistranslations in the bible... the word used in the phrase "thou shalt suffer not a whitch to live" actually translates more to poisioner. In a religion that is against murder I can see how this would be. It also doesnt say to kill them... though it is implied Ill admit. Still conversion or a change of job could to it just as easily right?
As for the Christo-wiccan path... from what I have seen I like it. It seems more... balanced to me. Though I cant find myself worshopping the christ-god. The few times Ive found him have been... distressing. But for those that can get along with him I am happy they have found a balanced equation in this chaotic world.

cartweel
August 17th, 2004, 02:56 AM
I've always had trouble with this subject. Sometimes I feel very out-of-place in the discussions because of my self-aknowledged bias against Christianity. Being liberal and gay I felt forced out of the religious community in my small, conservative, bible-belt town. I am continuously trying to remind myself, however, that Christianity is a valid belief system that is just as valid as any beliefs I hold.

That being said, I can support Christian Wiccans and Wiccan Christians. I see Christianity and Wicca having very similar core belief systems (there is a divine, you can have contact with that divine, richeous living and understanding is valued, etc.) and therefore cannot deny that someone could find a common ground between them. These people can and do blend those religions into a system of Wicca (or a system of Christianity) just as valid as "normal Wicca" or "normal Christianity". The periphery and not the core of the two religions are at odds.

I don't like to use second-hand examples, but one such circumstance involves one of my good friends and a spiritual teacher of mine. She had such a relationship within Christianity that she became an ordained Baptist Minister while at the same time realizing her conection with Wicca and other fascits of Paganism. I say, if the two systems can mesh in such a solid, secure way, how could it not be valid?

One other comment. Others have stated that if Christianity and Wicca are combined that they create an entirely new belief system: such is the beauty of religiosity and the personal journey. If someone truely feels connected to either Christianity or Wicca and combines elements of the other with it, can that new system not be used within the for both contrast and reflection?

SteveH
August 17th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Christian Wicca not only is doable but it is totally sensible and practical. Those who don't believe it is possible or legitimate usually have not seriously read anything on it or talked to someone who walks the path.

Love and Light,

Steve
Christian Wicca Ministries (http://www.steveholder.com/jesus.html)

.

Sleet
August 17th, 2004, 11:14 AM
*Shrug* The weird suf I believe in, I don't think I'm in much of a position to tell someone else their faith doesn't make sense.

Pol
August 17th, 2004, 01:45 PM
I think Christains would have a problem with Christo-Wiccans because Christains profess theirs to be the one, true, right way. To be a christian, you have to accept that Jesus was the son of God, and came to earth to save our human souls from damnation. If a Wiccan believes this, then I would wonder how it meshes with the reverence for nature and non-belief in hell that most Wiccans have.

If, however, you forget the fundamental teachings of conservative Christianity, and want to love Jesus and revere him as a diety or other holy person while practicing Wicca, I think that would work just fine. Just keep in mind Christians still wouldn't agree with your faith.

Christian witchcraft I see no conflict with, so I chose the option to respect and support it, but don't choose to follow it myself.


It can go deeper. I hold great love for nature, and believe not in hell, yet I still believe that Christ came to save us from it.
I do not believe in a literal hell, but believe that without Christ my life would be as hell - arid, empty, burning, and lonely.

Gwynna Star
August 21st, 2004, 08:49 PM
At this point in time, I'm in between Christianity and Wicca. I'm also studying the craft. I believe that the Divine is male and female, along with other aspects which we may not be aware of. It's a big universe, and I'm one of those sci-fi people who believe there are many beings in the universe. Sometimes I wonder what belief systems they have...

I believe there's more going on, and we don't see the BIG Picture yet. Who knows? We may never see it, until we've passed on to another life.

Sorry if I'm taking this subject of course... I do believe it's possible to mix both Wicca and Christianity. Not all Christians take the bible literally, and so it's quite conceivable to combine them together. I know many people who mix religions and create their own path. I'm one that believes everyone's path has truth, as long as you follow your heart. :)

MorningDove030202
August 23rd, 2004, 06:57 PM
I selected other.... because I feel you can mix the Christianity with the Wicca, but I'm not sure if by mixing Wicca with Christianity if one is still a Christian....

I supose it comes down to your definition of Christian, and for me that has to do with beliveing that Jesus died for our sins and has saved us from Hell.

If you do belive this I don't see how you can be Wiccan as we don't belive in Hell. If you don't beleve this then (IMHO) you can't be a Christian.....

You can be:

A Pagan for Jesus
A Wiccan for Jesus
A Witch for Jesus

Which means that Jesus isn't your savior, you just follow his moral teachings, and think that he's a prety cool and posibly magical dude.

You can also be a Christian Witch including the belive in being saved, and dying for our sins.

Above all, it's your life, and you can call your path what you want. It's not my place to say who is and isn't a Christian. I just feel there might be a better term out there depening on what you actualy belive and do.

Dove

Strawberry Bounce
August 24th, 2004, 02:18 AM
What I want to know is why people automatically assume Christianity is the safety blanket, and not Wicca! It could just as easily be that they want to convert totally to Christianity, but are so faithful to Wicca that they feel uneasy leaving.

I think it's because of the "hell" thing.

Xander67
August 24th, 2004, 03:14 AM
I agree with Bounce.

The Concept of Hell does produce fear on one level.

GreenAurora
August 24th, 2004, 10:39 AM
First of all, Hello to everyone; I am new here.

I am new to Wicca in general. I am 31 years old and gave been raised Catholic. I have, for many years, had issues with many working of the church, although I pratice my religion by going to church and praying. Some things I am increasingly having problems with: the legitimacy of a man-written bible with stories that I simply can not take literally, the 10 commandments-- if following these "rules" is what life is all about, then I sin practically all the time. It is silly. I do not believe there is no feminine life force, for all I know, God is female. Or-- God has no gender, or God is made up of many... I have issue with a virgin birth... BUT--I do believe that Jesus was a wonderful teacher and Saviour for all of us (meaning--I do not believe that He only helps those of us who are "Christians" while leaving those of other spiritualities behind).

As I study Wicca, I consider myself a Christian-Wiccan. Does this mean that I am too "scared" to leave Jesus behind, that I "cling" to him like a security blanket? NO--it simply means that, as many forms of Wiccan seem to offer, I will choose where I place my faith. From what I understand, Wicca equals the ability to choose. So, I choose to believe those things I have always believed in, and to leave behind many of the "truths" that have been force-fed to me all my life (the things I have NEVER believed, no matter how many times I went to church).. I am a FREE thinker. I will blend my adoration of Jesus with the worship of my God and Goddess, or maybe more than one. I do not think that one single entity governs us all. It simply can not be. But, I do believe in my God, as you believe in yours.

It can be done... and yes, it can only be done by leaving behind many rules of Christianity (esp. Catholocism). But-- it is this idea that I can not wrap my mind around properly, or articulate well... how do we REALLY know what the "rules" are? So many are man made-- it is time for me to make my own rules based on what is in my heart. These include my love of nature, the paranormal (all those things the church does not want you to know about because knowledge=power,) the feminine.

Thanks for listening :)

:fpeace:

Erebus
August 24th, 2004, 12:26 PM
Since when did "What is and is not a valid path" become a democratic decision?

~ Monk ~
August 24th, 2004, 08:51 PM
Do you support Christain-Wicca?
I neither support nor denounce it. Why anyone else would feel a need to do either one is kinda puzzling to me.

I think the solution to all of the angst of being a Christian Wiccan, etc. is to just do away with the existing labels. I don't think anyone should feel a need to justify their beliefs to others, but if it's really that much of an issue, eliminate the source of the problem!

Nemesis Descending
August 24th, 2004, 10:19 PM
To be fair, the bible never says women should not speak (in terms of sermons, teaching, that sort of thing) in church.

Really? What do make of this then:

1 Timothy 2: 11-12 A woman must learn in silence and be completely submissive. I do not permit a woman to act as teacher, or in any way to have authority over a man; she must be quiet."

1 Corinthians 11: 34 Women should keep silent in such gatherings. They may not speak. Rather, as the law states, submissiveness is indicated for them. If they want to learn anything, they should ask theri husbands at home. It is a disgrace when a woman speaks in the assembly.

In Her service,
Nemesis Descending

Aine of the Fae
August 26th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Well let's see. First that was written by (maybe) Paul. Who was a masochistic, sexist, whiny wannabe who went around telling the early Christian churches what they should and shouldn't do because he wanted to be the bigger and badder apostle. He didn't have the priviledge of knowing Jesus alive, so he had a hallucination and BOOM suddenly he's got divine authority. Hell, I have visions of Jesus nightly. Maybe I can add a few books to the Bible.

Secondly, if you read Jesus words, the ones attributed to him anyway, you might just realize that he viewed men and women as EQUALS and that he points out SEVERAL times that the Bible is NOT the word of God, that the first books of the OT were written by Moses and that he had allowed things God never allowed, thus invalidating the whole "divine inspiration" crap.

Third, quite taking freaking words out of context. Everyone seems to enjoy forgetting the CULTURE in which those books were written. The women of early Christianity greatly enjoyed their new found freedom, however the non-Christian men of that culture thought they were whores and so tried to take advantage of them. Thus the warnings to *shush* aren't so much that women can't speak as they are cultural protections. Because those books were written for a specific time, a specific culture and a specific purpose, pulling a sentence or two out here and there is foolish to say the least.

And fourth, if you're not a Christian, then don't use the Bible against Christians. If you don't hold to the words of that book then how the Hell can you expect someone else to?

Morr
August 26th, 2004, 05:33 PM
Well let's see. First that was written by (maybe) Paul. Who was a masochistic, sexist, whiny wannabe who went around telling the early Christian churches what they should and shouldn't do because he wanted to be the bigger and badder apostle. He didn't have the priviledge of knowing Jesus alive, so he had a hallucination and BOOM suddenly he's got divine authority. Hell, I have visions of Jesus nightly. Maybe I can add a few books to the Bible.

Secondly, if you read Jesus words, the ones attributed to him anyway, you might just realize that he viewed men and women as EQUALS and that he points out SEVERAL times that the Bible is NOT the word of God, that the first books of the OT were written by Moses and that he had allowed things God never allowed, thus invalidating the whole "divine inspiration" crap.

Third, quite taking freaking words out of context. Everyone seems to enjoy forgetting the CULTURE in which those books were written. The women of early Christianity greatly enjoyed their new found freedom, however the non-Christian men of that culture thought they were whores and so tried to take advantage of them. Thus the warnings to *shush* aren't so much that women can't speak as they are cultural protections. Because those books were written for a specific time, a specific culture and a specific purpose, pulling a sentence or two out here and there is foolish to say the least.

And fourth, if you're not a Christian, then don't use the Bible against Christians. If you don't hold to the words of that book then how the Hell can you expect someone else to?

Ummm...
Jesus, being a Jew, believed that the *first five books* of the OT (ie - The Torah) were written by Moses. However, it has been historically proven that this is false, through the literature & context & expressions written in each book - showing that the author of the 5 books is not one. And was probably written at different & seperate times. Also, Moses foreseeing his own death & writing about it, is kind of a stretch.
(Which only proves even more that Jesus was actually a Jew, not a Christian).

Ummm...
What Early Christian Women? Christianity was a Jewish sect - No Jewish woman, in any Jewish sect, had extra privilages or freedom. You cannot say that every single none Christian man at that time saw Christian women as whores. Thats just making things up. Sorry. The culture at that time - At any part of the world (except for maybe the Celtic Tribes) did not give women extra privilages. ESPECIALLY not in an area where a religion like Judaism was widely practiced. You say that Jesus was a Jew & followed the Jewish teachings (most of them), well, he most likely wasnt pro - freedom for women. This is supported by your statement saying that he declared that the Torah was written by Moses, hence he held that orthodox Jewish belief, so no reason to assume he didnt hold the same orthodox opinion taught in these 5 books.

Sorry I butt in on this convo.. But I couldnt resist..

Aine of the Fae
August 26th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Why you always gotta jump in huh Morr???

LOL But there is evidence in the gospels, as well as the pseudo-gospels, that he viewed women differently than the norm.... I'm just too brain-dead to dig up the references at the moment....

Morr
August 26th, 2004, 05:39 PM
Why you always gotta jump in huh Morr???

LOL But there is evidence in the gospels, as well as the pseudo-gospels, that he viewed women differently than the norm.... I'm just too brain-dead to dig up the references at the moment....


its my job to jump in, and you know it ;)

I am not familiar with any evidence in the Gospels that talk about extra freedom for women.
All I know is that Jesus saved an adultress woman from being Stoned... But this wasnt because he was all like "she's a woman, let her have her fun & freedom"... It was because of that "look in the mirror before you judge someone else" lesson dealio thing he was trying to teach the people..

Pandoras
September 3rd, 2004, 07:40 PM
I believe that a person can be Pagan and/or Wican and believe in Jesus keeping in mind that all gods are one. However, I don't see how a person can be Christian and pagan/Wiccan. I've read a little here and there about the subject and I also minored in Religious Studies (specifically Christianity) in college. I'm no expert, but as far as I'm concerened, the two are completely contradictory. Or to phrase it better, Christianity and the Bible specifically and explicitly condemn pagan beliefs and practices.

Having said that, if a person calls themselves Christo-Pagan or a Christian Witch, so be it. That's their thing. It has nothing to do with me. When it comes to religion, we all pick and choose and simply dismiss what we feel is inconvinient or somehow wrong.

IndigoMoon
September 4th, 2004, 08:39 PM
And fourth, if you're not a Christian, then don't use the Bible against Christians. If you don't hold to the words of that book then how the Hell can you expect someone else to?[/QUOTE]

is the bible true or not? that is an age old question. Another big complaint about the bible is that people pick parts and pieces and choose to believe in this part or that part but not another part. I think that the bible a really good read actually. It's got as much action, suspense, betrayal and lovingness as any of the books that are on the best seller list today. But since I think that it's either all true or not at all I choose to discount the bible. It all comes down to the parts about pagans going to hell and sabbats, worshipping more than one god, or a god other than "the god" are also all grounds for going to hell. I don't use the bible against christians. I think that everyone has a right to their own thing. But it was the bible that turned me off of christianity.

Aine of the Fae
September 4th, 2004, 08:46 PM
And fourth, if you're not a Christian, then don't use the Bible against Christians. If you don't hold to the words of that book then how the Hell can you expect someone else to?

is the bible true or not? that is an age old question. Another big complaint about the bible is that people pick parts and pieces and choose to believe in this part or that part but not another part. I think that the bible a really good read actually. It's got as much action, suspense, betrayal and lovingness as any of the books that are on the best seller list today. But since I think that it's either all true or not at all I choose to discount the bible. It all comes down to the parts about pagans going to hell and sabbats, worshipping more than one god, or a god other than "the god" are also all grounds for going to hell. I don't use the bible against christians. I think that everyone has a right to their own thing. But it was the bible that turned me off of christianity.[/QUOTE]

Consider this. Perhaps the Bible has levels of truth. Jesus spoke a great deal in parables. These aren't generally considered to be literal historical events, instead they were stories that illustrated spiritual truth. So why wouldn't the rest of the Bible be the same way?

Also, the Bible is culturally biased. Even fundamentalist Christians will tell you that you can't apply every law and rule in the Bible to modern society, because it simply doesn't fit. How do I know they'll tell you this? Because I'm going to a fundamentalist Bible college and one of my classes this semester is Biblical Ethics.

If a pagan can pick and choose what they want to believe, why can't a Christian? Why is there this big double standard?

Morr
September 5th, 2004, 10:30 AM
Consider this. Perhaps the Bible has levels of truth. Jesus spoke a great deal in parables. These aren't generally considered to be literal historical events, instead they were stories that illustrated spiritual truth. So why wouldn't the rest of the Bible be the same way?

Also, the Bible is culturally biased. Even fundamentalist Christians will tell you that you can't apply every law and rule in the Bible to modern society, because it simply doesn't fit. How do I know they'll tell you this? Because I'm going to a fundamentalist Bible college and one of my classes this semester is Biblical Ethics.

If a pagan can pick and choose what they want to believe, why can't a Christian? Why is there this big double standard?

there is no double standard, Aine.
it doesnt make sense to some Pagans out there (and im not ashamed to say that I'm one of them), that Christians like you admit that the bible (at least parts of it) are false, yet choose to believe what "feels right" to you, in the form of Jesus being the Messiah & The Son Of God. Again, how do you know that this Jesus story & his teachings isnt one big fat fable?
Just like the Pagan Gods are not real to you, so is Jesus & his myths not real to people like me. And just as it seems wierd to you that pagans like me believe in Gods that are recorded in acient legends, so is it wierd to us that you believe in a God & a human that are recorded in some book, etc.
Your beliefs are as inadequate to our lives, as our beliefs are as inadequate to yours (using your own words).

and thats just it.

Aine of the Fae
September 5th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Then why is it ok for you to say it, but not me.

Aowyn
September 5th, 2004, 06:46 PM
there is no double standard, Aine.
it doesnt make sense to some Pagans out there (and im not ashamed to say that I'm one of them), that Christians like you admit that the bible (at least parts of it) are false, yet choose to believe what "feels right" to you, in the form of Jesus being the Messiah & The Son Of God. Again, how do you know that this Jesus story & his teachings isnt one big fat fable?

Ahhh in the words of Rodney King "Why can't we all just get along?"

How does anyone know that their religious beleifs are not just based on one big fat fable? HMMMMM? That my dear is where faith comes into play, all religions require faith this is a fact and not debatable.

One could put forth the argument that the reason for a christian not beleiving every little syllable in the bible is due to the fact that the bible was written by man (insert room for error here folks) and then was subsequently translated by many other men (hello there coloring of facts and possible chance for deletion or denial of important stuff). Therefore anyone who says I don't beleive all of the stuff in the bible is merely using good common sense. :D

Aelfoak
September 6th, 2004, 12:48 PM
I personally don't see how these two beliefs can gel together, but if it makes someone else happy then its ok.

Erebus
September 9th, 2004, 07:33 AM
there is no double standard, Aine.
it doesnt make sense to some Pagans out there (and im not ashamed to say that I'm one of them), that Christians like you admit that the bible (at least parts of it) are false, yet choose to believe what "feels right" to you, in the form of Jesus being the Messiah & The Son Of God. Again, how do you know that this Jesus story & his teachings isnt one big fat fable?

Right, like the Osiris and Odin and Diana and Brigit and Kali, et al stories and teachings aren't big fat fables.

CHRISTIAN fables are unworthy of use by enlightened people, only OTHER fables can be used. :rolleyes:

Avalon
September 9th, 2004, 11:38 AM
Christianity and Wicca have always seemed at odds to me...but I respect those who take it for their Path. Christian Witchcraft I have an easier time with, since one doesn't have to be religious to practice folk magic, etc. Just my humble 2¢. :)

Erebus
September 9th, 2004, 02:26 PM
Like I said in the OTHER thread (..no, not that OTHER thread, the OTHER other thread! No, not that one either! Damn it!), if it was good enough for Dion Fortune, it's good enough for me.

CleftOfLight
September 12th, 2004, 07:36 AM
I sapport christain Witch yesss I do

VioletFaerie
September 12th, 2004, 07:52 AM
I respect and support Christian Wicca even if it's not my path because frankly, I don't have the right to disapprove of anyones path, may it be Calvinism or Devil Worshipping! I owe it to everyone to respect their path, as I wouldn't want my path to be disrespected. :)

Nuiket
September 24th, 2004, 06:55 AM
Although there is an Author that says that the Two can not be together at all I don't believe that part of the book and support what you choose as long as it is not froced Upon anyone!

Nuiket
September 24th, 2004, 07:15 AM
there is no double standard, Aine.

I'm sorry But If Pagans that do read the bivle for what ever reason they and then are being pounded by so many Christians to convert the pagans back to Chirst and they use the bible againist the Pagan's I think the Pagan's have the right to use the bible back on them. And Not to sound Rude or anything but it sounds like to me that you are frocing your Religion on us Just like Normal Christian's Do. And That was One thing I couldn't stand for WHile I was Christian and what I became A Wiican/Pagan!

Betah
September 25th, 2004, 06:35 AM
I'm sorry But If Pagans that do read the bivle for what ever reason they and then are being pounded by so many Christians to convert the pagans back to Chirst and they use the bible againist the Pagan's I think the Pagan's have the right to use the bible back on them. And Not to sound Rude or anything but it sounds like to me that you are frocing your Religion on us Just like Normal Christian's Do. And That was One thing I couldn't stand for WHile I was Christian and what I became A Wiican/Pagan!

1. The tendency of certain evangelical Christians to use quotes from the Bible against other religions does not give those religions the right to use quotes taken out of context, from a book they don't even believe in and throw them in the faces of a separate group of Christians, who in all likelihood have to put up with the same nonsense from those same evangelical Christians.
2. There is no such thing as normal Christianinty, currently the are more different denominations than could be feasibly counted and the majority of these Christians are not evangelical. To clarify; The average Christian would not consider a verbal barrage of context deficient Bible quotes a valid argument, nor is the average Christian going to forcibly convert anyone.
3. I find that the only serious difference between an evangelical and a over zealous Pagan is the Pagan is more likely to claim, utterly falsely, that they think "all paths are equally valid" in their view whilst trying to berate me into yielding to their views of what is and isn't possible to believe (and not in an all encompassing, happy, five word phrase).

Note: I see over zealous members of any religion as annoying pompous windbags, unrepresentative of their respective religions.

Mouse
September 25th, 2004, 07:24 AM
I respect all paths too, but that doesn't mean i have to agree with them :P

I don't support christian wicca really, and i don't support the idea of christian witches.

Someone mentioned that witches and wiccans use dietys from a range of cultures and times so why not jesus and mary? But i find there is a difference in adopting a diety from a religon Vs meshing two religons together.
Christians believe witches are evil. what more can i say? I mean i don't see the point in ignoring parts of your faith because they are not liked.

Meh, maybe im just biased
~ miriam

Betah
September 25th, 2004, 12:23 PM
I don't support christian wicca really, and i don't support the idea of christian witches.

Someone mentioned that witches and wiccans use dietys from a range of cultures and times so why not jesus and mary? But i find there is a difference in adopting a diety from a religon Vs meshing two religons together.
Christians believe witches are evil. what more can i say? I mean i don't see the point in ignoring parts of your faith because they are not liked.

Meh, maybe im just biased
~ miriam
Believing witches are evil is not a part of all Christianity. Believing that is part of a version of Christianity espoused by narrow minded people (both christian and Pagan) as some fundamental part of Christianity.
Which is to say there is no paradox in calling oneself a Christian Witch/Wiccan/etc.. when other Christians believe witches are evil, because that opinion is anathema to as many forms of Christianity as actually hold it.
Also, no part of my religion is being ignored, even the slightest hint of a contradiction in my beliefs draws me to throughly check every part of the argument against me, until I'm either proved wrong or I find a counter proof.

MoonKnight
September 28th, 2004, 06:41 PM
Believing witches are evil is not a part of all Christianity. Believing that is part of a version of Christianity espoused by narrow minded people (both christian and Pagan) as some fundamental part of Christianity.
Which is to say there is no paradox in calling oneself a Christian Witch/Wiccan/etc.. when other Christians believe witches are evil, because that opinion is anathema to as many forms of Christianity as actually hold it.
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

A variation of this is to be found in every version of the bible. So Christians can pick and choose which part of the bible is to be believed and which not to?

dreamspirit
September 28th, 2004, 06:43 PM
In a perfect world were christ and nature went hand in hand such as many native Americans practice.

heartandrose
September 28th, 2004, 09:17 PM
Does anybody know any good websites on Christian witchcraft? The only things I see on search engines are what Christians view witchcraft to be and some other useless crap.

StephanieAine
September 28th, 2004, 10:40 PM
Okay, I'm peeking in here <g>.

I don't know if this will add anything of interest to the discussion, but since there hasn't been a "plain vanilla Christian" opinion in here, I'll volunteer myself <g>.

Here's my own stance, and from my experience among conservative Christians (not meaning charismatic fundamentalists, but rather conservative Presbyterians - since that's the denomination I come from - although that's not my sole frame of reference), I think I can say that this is a pretty common 'take' on the subject.

That whole not suffering a witch to live business isn't even the point; yes, it's in the Bible, but the sum of the law and the prophets (meaning the Old Testament) is love (when standing upon the New Covenant of the New Testament). What the scripture actually teaches Christians is that we are not supposed to practice witchcraft - not divination, not astrology, not anything in the category of magic. Basically, no "hidden arts."

So, when I think of Christian witchcraft, I see it as something that can't be done *if you're trying to follow things to the letter* - but of course, Christians today fall anywhere along the spectrum from liberal to highly conservative. Some Christians today don't even believe in *Jesus* (which seems odd to me, since that's what the religion is about!) - so it's not much of a surprise that people today are reconsidering how they feel about the Bible and what they, personally, in their own estimation, think of the Bible's teachings.

For some of those people, the decision is to practice both Christianity *and* witchcraft - and they see no contradiction in that.

I personally can't see how it can be reconciled, because the Bible is terribly clear about the prohibition against magic, sorcery, divination, yadda yadda - so I'm not sure how that would be intellectually reasoned out in order to decide that, in fact, it would be an okay thing to do.

****BUT**** - here's the thing. Another teaching that the Bible is tremendously clear about is not judging others, and the Bible also specifies that we will be judged as we judged others, so that stresses the point even more. We *are* allowed to be *discerning* - and in fact we are instructed to be discerning. We're supposed to *see* the difference between Biblical/unBiblical - and to remain on the side of Biblical... but we can't just condemn or hate people who believe different things, because that's not our job. The whole concept of being a Christian is that we 'die to the self' and instead allow Christ to live through us (in other words, give ourselves to Him so that we can do His work on earth).

For Christians, that means realizing that God the Father is the only one who can make the determination about what is in a person's heart, and whether they did right or wrong. We might be able to *see* various things that indicate right or wrong - but we're human. We don't see into the heart the way God does, although the better we try to live by His principles, the easier it might be to refrain from *hurting* someone's heart. And if we attack people because they do something we perceive as unbiblical, then we're definitely not handling things the way God has taught.

Although I can't see anything scripturally that tells me that witchcraft can be done by a Christian within the 'guidelines' so to speak, I absolutely recognize every person's God-given Free Will, and the human right to freedom. That means freedom of religion; freedom to choose. I have no problem at all with telling someone that I'm concerned about them, or explaining why I don't understand that kind of thing (and hopefully dialogue or something in a way where there is mutual edification, or at least some sort of human connection about things) - but no way would I just judge someone as if I had the right - or even the ability - to do such a thing. That would be ridiculous.

Honestly, there really are *plenty* of Christians who know how to be both devout Christians *and* be tolerant of others' religious choices without turning jerky. When I read these things it always sounds like Christians are a bunch of maniacs running around with garlic garlands around their necks carrying wooden stakes to ward off the vampires or something! Really, Christianity is a tremendously beautiful faith - it's just that sometimes *people* can be really mean.

If Aine and others decide to practice Christian witchcraft, they and they alone make that choice - and really, it doesn't matter what any human being says about it. They have free will; they have the ability to decide for themselves what to do, and so that's basically that.

So, just to repeat - the witchcraft issue is not determined by the 'suffer a witch' passage - it is determined by each passage concerning witchcraft/magic/etc. when taken together as a whole in order to understand the big picture. That means both the Old Testament and the New Testament used together.

Betah
September 29th, 2004, 02:19 PM
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

A variation of this is to be found in every version of the bible. So Christians can pick and choose which part of the bible is to be believed and which not to?
There is no picking and choosing necessary, only the decision to take quotes in context, both in terms of the surrounding paragraph and in terms of which book the quote is from, the time its from and the writer. No convenient omitting/disbelieving of text that does not support my views is needed, just the ignoring of obviously biased view points based (however loosely) on the Bible.

Loopaleigh
October 3rd, 2004, 10:45 PM
I personally see a deep philosophical conflict between the two belief systems, but for some people it seems to work. Considering the way witchcraft is looked at in the Bible, and polytheism, and considering that Christians are expected to follow/accept the teachings in the Bible, in my opinion, I just don't think the two belief systems can mesh. When I was Christian--and I have a fairly grounded knowledge of the Bible--it would have been unacceptable to claim to be both Christian and a member of Wicca. I suppose that I see "Christian Wicca" as a form of the New Age Christ Consciousness movement.

Yasmine


Yasmine puts it better than I could.
If someone is a Christian Witch, well that I can understand. They are Christian and they practice magic.
But for someone to say they follow Christ as their Saviour AND are Wiccan at the same time makes no sense to me. The two faiths have different theologies and ideaologies.

Rubber_Piggy
October 3rd, 2004, 11:29 PM
Well christians are required to be dogmatically monotheist, while wicca implies polytheism. I would therefore argue that you can not be truly both simultaneously.

For example: you could be following the teachings of Christ, but by being polytheistic you cannot call yourself Christian.

Tangerines
October 4th, 2004, 10:52 AM
I thought it was Christian witchcraft, not Wicca, and since witchcraft doesn't require you to hold any beliefs on deities that I'm aware of, I can see how the two could work together.

Betah
October 5th, 2004, 07:15 PM
But for someone to say they follow Christ as their Saviour AND are Wiccan at the same time makes no sense to me. The two faiths have different theologies and ideaologies. There are few, if any, unifying theologies that hold for all Christianity.

Well christians are required to be dogmatically monotheist, while wicca implies polytheism. I would therefore argue that you can not be truly both simultaneously.

For example: you could be following the teachings of Christ, but by being polytheistic you cannot call yourself Christian. Christians are not required to obey any narrow generalization and yes, there is such a thing as a polytheistic Christian.

I thought it was Christian witchcraft, not Wicca, and since witchcraft doesn't require you to hold any beliefs on deities that I'm aware of, I can see how the two could work together. Christian Wicca would be an amalgamation of Christianity and Wicca, although Christian witchcraft also exists.

Brigid Bishop
October 8th, 2004, 01:23 AM
I personally see a deep philosophical conflict between the two belief systems, but for some people it seems to work. Considering the way witchcraft is looked at in the Bible, and polytheism, and considering that Christians are expected to follow/accept the teachings in the Bible, in my opinion, I just don't think the two belief systems can mesh. When I was Christian--and I have a fairly grounded knowledge of the Bible--it would have been unacceptable to claim to be both Christian and a member of Wicca. I suppose that I see "Christian Wicca" as a form of the New Age Christ Consciousness movement.

Yasmine


Witchcraft is not always frowned upon in the Bible. The three Magi, the first three Christians, they were "Magi" Magicians and Astrologers. Magicians in the Bible are respected. Pharoah's who possessed absolute power had Magicians, it was a sign of power and wealth.

God's gifts in the Bible were often Magickal. Look at how Moses parted the sea, with his "staff", or magically charged wand.

I believe that Christianity and Paganism go hand in hand. When the Bible was written they focused on "one god", but the energies are still there. And when you think about it, Christianity is a Polytheic Religion, you have your three deities rolled into one, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Even the Apostolic Creed recognizes all three deities, but magickally calls them one god.

And our Goddesses are The Virgin Mary and Mary Magdelene.

Just my two pennies worth.

WingedTigerChild
October 17th, 2004, 04:02 AM
I think Christianity and Paganism seem at odds at first because when most of us think of Christianity, we think of it in terms of the mainstream. However, a more indepth look into Christianity and it's past reveals that, like someone has already mentioned, the two pretty much go hand-in-hand. For instance, the Gnostics believe(d) in a Goddess (called Sophia), which is a belief that was actually carried over to the very early Catholic church, but Sophia has long been replaced by the virgin Mary in the Catholic world-view. You'd be hard-pressed to ever get a conservative Christian to admit that Christianity was more-so duo/polytheistic in it's early years...which fits prefectly with the Wiccan aspect of things.

IvyWitch
October 17th, 2004, 01:40 PM
I think it's also important to remember that Christianity has evolved in however many hundreds of years into what it is today, and it was very different when the religion was first formed. Early Christians were quite mystical, and catholicism is rife with mystical teachings, a great example of which is the idea of transubstantiation. Christianity, like any other religion is what you make of it. The definition of Christianity is just as personal as the definition of Wicca or Paganism. Why do you think that there are so many different denominations, so many arguments of doctrine among Christians? Despite popular belief, Christianity is not *one* organized religion. It, just like Paganism, is a label that encompasses many different beliefs.

Kalika
October 18th, 2004, 02:47 PM
If a person feels that its the right path for them... then yes.

Shakyamuni007
October 19th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Both Christian Wicca and Christian Witchcraft seem to be a contradiction in terms to me, but if it works for someone, I don't understand why I should have the right to say its wrong. Personally as long as a path works for a person, they have every right in the world to follow it, as long as you don't claim its the only true religion or some similar bullshit, and you are serious about it and aren't just using it as a reason to rebel. It seems to me that if god exists his reality, and the other subjects explored by religion are much too complex for anything created by the human mind to explain, so really you have to study all religions in order to even begin to have an understanding of the spiritual realms, god, etc.

MoonKnight
October 19th, 2004, 05:57 PM
Shinto Muslim, Mormon Hindu, Jewish Sikh. Do these sound odd to anyone?

Betah
October 20th, 2004, 04:01 AM
Shinto Muslim, Mormon Hindu, Jewish Sikh. Do these sound odd to anyone?
I am insufficiently familiar with the given religions or their subgroups to analyse the given query in regards to the case, however, the oddity of any given path does not alter it's plausibility, let alone that of another path.
Which is to state that any extremely unfamiliar view of something will seem odd, however, this does not affect the validity of said view.

Nuiket
October 20th, 2004, 04:35 AM
1. The tendency of certain evangelical Christians to use quotes from the Bible against other religions does not give those religions the right to use quote taken out of context, from a book they don't even believe in and throw them in the faces of a separate group of Christians, who in all likelihood have to put up with the same nonsense from those same evangelical Christians.
2. There is no such thing as normal Christianinty, currently the are more different denominations than could be feasibly counted and the majority of these Christians are not evangelical. To clarify; The average Christian would not consider a verbal barrage of context deficient Bible quotes a valid argument, nor is the average Christian going to forcibly convert anyone.
3. I find that the only serious difference between an evangelical and a over zealous Pagan is the Pagan is more likely to claim, utterly falsely, that they think "all paths are equally valid" in their view whilst trying to berate me into yielding to their views of what is and isn't possible to believe (and not in an all encompassing, happy, five word phrase).

Note: I see over zealous members of any religion as annoying pompous windbags, unrepresentative of their respective religions.

Apperantly You do not deal with what I do. When I say normal Chirstians I reffer to mainly Mormons and Jehono witnesses Now I admit most likely I misspelled both But I'm sure you get which ones I mean No matter where I been while in Arizona Both these groups while no physical harm came upon me There presence And though door to door Insit That if your not apart of there Religion You must be converted Unless you proclaim your With Satin or a Pagan this goes to that note you have though the way they do there coverting to me is still Frocing there Views and ther for is a froce Conversion in my mind!

Betah
October 20th, 2004, 06:12 AM
Apperantly You do not deal with what I do. When I say normal Chirstians I reffer to mainly Mormons and Jehono witnesses Now I admit most likely I misspelled both But I'm sure you get which ones I mean No matter where I been while in Arizona Both these groups while no physical harm came upon me There presence And though door to door Insit That if your not apart of there Religion You must be converted Unless you proclaim your With Satin or a Pagan this goes to that note you have though the way they do there coverting to me is still Frocing there Views and ther for is a froce Conversion in my mind!
Whilst both Mormons and JWs are given to trying to convert everyone (other Christians included) to their particular views, their methods for doing this (loathsome as they are to myself) do not force anyone into anything.
Regardless, I do encounter their persistent attempts to convert others (me included) to their cause, with disturbing regularity, as I maintain contact with both groups.
But ultimately their practices do not alter my point, as they are in no way representative of Christians as a whole, nor is any denomination (or pair of such) representative of Christianity as a whole.
The reason why Evangelicals are sometimes erroneously seen as being representative of christians is that they are vastly more obvious than other Christians, not because they are more numerous, as they are actually a fairly small percent of Christians.
I also deal quite regularly with Pagans who try and convert anyone and everyone, curiously they never get accused of trying to force conversion from Christianity on others, despite their methods amounting to a stinking pile of propaganda that has been sweetened with a few choice tricks.

Nuiket
October 21st, 2004, 04:00 AM
Whilst both Mormons and JWs are given to trying to convert everyone (other Christians included) to their particular views, their methods for doing this (loathsome as they are to myself) do not force anyone into anything.
Regardless, I do encounter their persistent attempts to convert others (me included) to their cause, with disturbing regularity, as I maintain contact with both groups.
But ultimately their practices do not alter my point, as they are in no way representative of Christians as a whole, nor is any denomination (or pair of such) representative of Christianity as a whole.
The reason why Evangelicals are sometimes erroneously seen as being representative of christians is that they are vastly more obvious than other Christians, not because they are more numerous, as they are actually a fairly small percent of Christians.
I also deal quite regularly with Pagans who try and convert anyone and everyone, curiously they never get accused of trying to force conversion from Christianity on others, despite their methods amounting to a stinking pile of propaganda that has been sweetened with a few choice tricks.

I'll give you that but as you just mention if I got this correctly Other Dominations do conversions as well though not the way Mormons ans JW do. True however again with where I've been and other things I've witness Or books on religion Must go into New Age There stuff goes in both the New Age and Religion section of Books stores. Now to others that maybe ok to me I see it as another way of chirstians frocing there views on us. And Other Chirstians Complain if one of our Teen books is placed in The teenInspuration section of a book store Saying that it has no place being there. Again to me this is a froce saying we have no rights mof any sorts and must be converted. Thoughas I did say this my opinion through what I had to deal with and both witness in my State of Arizona!

Doodlebug
October 21st, 2004, 10:27 AM
I respect and support Christian Wicca even though it's not my path.

Betah
October 22nd, 2004, 11:34 AM
I'll give you that but as you just mention if I got this correctly Other Dominations do conversions as well though not the way Mormons ans JW do. True however again with where I've been and other things I've witness Or books on religion Must go into New Age There stuff goes in both the New Age and Religion section of Books stores. Now to others that maybe ok to me I see it as another way of chirstians frocing there views on us. And Other Chirstians Complain if one of our Teen books is placed in The teenInspuration section of a book store Saying that it has no place being there. Again to me this is a froce saying we have no rights mof any sorts and must be converted. Thoughas I did say this my opinion through what I had to deal with and both witness in my State of Arizona!
People arguing over which category suits a book most is odd, but ultimately the book shop gets to decide where to place books, so just remember to complain whenever a book is erroneously lumped in the wrong section (especially when trying to find a book you want to buy) and the company will probably place books in the correct sections.
In any case, even if the placement of books in a shop were a form of discrimination the fact of the matter is that many forms of Paganism are considered by the majority of people to be New Age and books should normally be placed where the majority of customers know to look.
Another possible solution is to persistently suggest (using those nice customer suggestion forms) that the book shop change the title of the new age section to better reflect the books actually sold in that section.

Kern
October 22nd, 2004, 03:11 PM
Doesnt matter to me one way or the other,if they find solace in it then so be it.

Tarotboy4
October 24th, 2004, 04:26 AM
Whilst both Mormons and JWs are given to trying to convert everyone (other Christians included) to their particular views, their methods for doing this (loathsome as they are to myself) do not force anyone into anything.
Regardless, I do encounter their persistent attempts to convert others (me included) to their cause, with disturbing regularity, as I maintain contact with both groups.
But ultimately their practices do not alter my point, as they are in no way representative of Christians as a whole, nor is any denomination (or pair of such) representative of Christianity as a whole.
The reason why Evangelicals are sometimes erroneously seen as being representative of christians is that they are vastly more obvious than other Christians, not because they are more numerous, as they are actually a fairly small percent of Christians.
I also deal quite regularly with Pagans who try and convert anyone and everyone, curiously they never get accused of trying to force conversion from Christianity on others, despite their methods amounting to a stinking pile of propaganda that has been sweetened with a few choice tricks.

Actually, My great Aunt Betty has found an easy way to get the to leave you alone forever. A way to make them never come to your door ever again (at least it's worked for her.) The next time they come to your door. tell them that you were excomunicated from there group. apparently they can't leave fast enough, and they woun't ask for verification of this.

arctic splash
October 29th, 2004, 09:01 PM
I don't see why anyone who wants to integrate Christianity in their spiritual path necessarily has to follow the Bible to a tee. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible isn't Christianity, and one doesn't have to agree with everything (or even most of) what one reads in the Bible to be a Christian. The Bible is just, more or less, what's left of Christianity after Constantine tampered with it. There were many Christianities before Catholicism became the norm, and I don't see why people who practice Christianity in modern times can't be just as (if not more) diverse.

I hear people say, "Well, Christianity and Wicca are incompatible, because the Bible says ______." Levitican law also says something about handicapped people and people with beards being banned from religious service, but I don't see any Christians following that anymore. The fact is, we might think of Christians as accepting the Bible as the perfect Word of God, but that's not always the case. Depending on the tradition, the Bible is more or less important, and 'solitary practitioners' of Christianity -- you don't have to join a church -- can decide how much weight to give the Bible. A lot of Christian mystics seem to take their experience and nature much more seriously than the Bible... and even Thomas Aquinas said that nature was a second Word of God.

So, of course it's possible to integrate paganism (including Wicca) with Christianity. Creation spirituality, and the work of Matthew Fox (author of One River, Many Wells, Sheer Joy, and Original Blessing) go a long way towards bridging the gap. I'd love to hear other suggestions, but from what I've found, Fox is the most pagan-friendly Christian writer out there... loved by Christians and pagans alike. :)

Peace to the Christians and the Pagans...

skyeborn_soul
November 7th, 2004, 05:56 PM
I don't fully understand how someone can mix a monotheistic male oriented religion with a polytheistic balanced ( to me anyway) one, but as far as my opinion goes, if it satisfies that persons spiritual needs and brings them happiness and comfort without hurting others, I don't see anything wrong with it.

XxAuroraxX
November 9th, 2004, 04:51 PM
no i don't support it really, i will go along with it and help people with their learning. i don't believe you should be able to have a christian-wiccan.....i personally don't think it is right to be involved in 2 religions. it's like trying to mix Jewdaism and Islam...you just can't, because they contradict each other so much. in my opinion you are either christian or you are wiccan. there is no grey area, maybe that is just me being narrow minded, but it is still only an opinion.

Lilyraine
November 9th, 2004, 05:06 PM
I don't believe there christianity can be mixed with wicca. Just doesn't work for meh.

Betah
November 10th, 2004, 11:40 AM
I don't believe you should be able to have a christian-wiccan.....i personally don't think it is right to be involved in 2 religions. it's like trying to mix Jewdaism and Islam...you just can't, because they contradict each other so much. in my opinion you are either christian or you are wiccan. there is no grey area, maybe that is just me being narrow minded, but it is still only an opinion.
Religions aren't discrete entities, plus, only certain forms of Christianity can be said to contradict Wicca.

Ninjakitten
November 11th, 2004, 09:28 PM
i think if you wanna head down the myriad paths that the mixture can lead to, separate yourself by calling yourself something else. ive got no problem with anyone who wants to use magic in a jesus context, for example, but it sure as hell aint christianity or wicca or witchcraft, so why call it that? apples and oranges, ladies and gentlemen.[/QUOTE]


That kind of reminds me of how some people I know support bans on gay marriage. Many would say they'd support a civil union like a marriage if "gays would just call it something else, just don't call it marriage". I do see some conflicts between the Christian and Wiccan religions, but witchcraft is a system of practice, not a religion in and of itself. I'm not looking for a conflict on this, nor am I criticizing. I just thought it was a point worth looking at.

Morning Star
November 14th, 2004, 12:53 PM
if it satisfies that persons spiritual needs and brings them happiness and comfort without hurting others, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Yeah, I think "Christian Wicca" may be the most absurd thing I've ever heard, but hey...whatever floats their boat. Personally, I try to help my friends get as far away from the Abrahamic religions as possible, because I believe they are not merely flawed, but dangerous spiritual paths, that often result in violence, intolerance, fear and paranoia. However, there are plenty of pagans who have truly screwed up beliefs as well and it is true that you can be a kind of Christian without following the dictates of the Bible - however, I also like to point out that you can believe in the divinity of Christ without being a Christian.

Elderbush
November 14th, 2004, 01:29 PM
I just don't understand quite how it works, mixing Wicca with Christianity. On the one hand you have the Christian god who wants to be first and most important, then you take a goddess from another pantheon and in Wicca the gods are supposed to be equal, correct? It seems to me that neither of them are going to be happy with the situation.

Morning Star
November 14th, 2004, 09:51 PM
It does seem a bit absurd. But whatever floats their boats, you know? What they believe doesn't hurt anyone (unless you count the confusion they cause lol). They've every right to their perspective...whatever it is exactly.

DarkHeart13
November 16th, 2004, 10:58 AM
I myself agree with Yasmine too. I've been reading articles on the topic since I heard about it. I personally think people are seeing that christianity is too strict and how wicca is appealing to them more but they are too afraid to just let go of Jesus and so they try to do both. Its like its their security blanket, they want to leave christianity because of all its flaws but are too scared so they try to find a way to mixing the two together although they know it is not possible. I see that the number of christains declining and wiccas climbing. I think as long as they still cling to christianity in one form or another they will never truly be wiccan. I'd like to think I could be open to this new combo, I wouldn't even call it a tradition, like all the normal traditions but I can't help but be dead against it. I do however have no problem with christain withches since that has nothing to do with religion just the craft.
In the Bible when it said scriptures such as, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," I believe it was talking about BIBLICAL witches. A witch and a Wiccan are two different things. God is not against Wicca as a religion, but he is against some aspects of the Craft because in GOD'S view, a witch was someone who was evil. So really, it's saying, don't do evil. I read where God is against astrology and divination if they are used to tell the future. I understand that much because God is the one who is in control of all life forms. He should have a say as to what happens. God wants these events to happen for a reason, good or bad. You learn from all events in your life and to read the future in order to "escape" a certain tragedy is wrong in the eyes of God. How would you get one of life's lessons that God was trying to teach you if you purposefully got rid of an event that was supposed to happen? That's why God is against Witchcraft. When he said he was against Witches, he was specific. Like I stated before he said no divination or astrology to tell the future. Any Christian Wiccan or Witch or whatever wouldn't be going against God's word as long as they didn't try to fortune tell. If you did, then I would say you are a hypocrite and you can't mix the religions. But if you're smart, truly believe in yourself, and know what you're doing, then Christian Witchcraft is possible.
Sorry if I came off as bitchy there...I don't think I did...hope I didn't...lol...just saying how I feel on the subject....
Blessed Be,
Jada Raine

Oh, I forgot...
When I said God was talking about BIBLICAL witches....Biblical as in the sense that Wiccans did not exist. Paganism did. Pagans have been around way longer than Christians, but not WICCA. Times change and I don't think God meant for all his followers to be against Wiccans, only people who fit the definition of a witch in God's point of view, which most certainly is NOT a Wiccan.
Cheers!

Morning Star
November 16th, 2004, 11:09 AM
[font=Comic Sans MS][size=4][color=darkslateblue]In the Bible when it said scriptures such as, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," I believe it was talking about BIBLICAL witches.

Actually it was refereing to anyone who practiced witchcraft. Furthermore - Christians and Jews are told to stone to death anyone that worships any god other than Jehovah.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or you closet friends secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known, gods of the people around you, whether near of far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all of Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again" Deuteronomy 13:6-11.

Any Christian or Jew who worships other gods (minus Christ obviously) are neither Christian or Jew, and they're own family is supposed to murder them with stones according to the Bible. Christianity is a death cult, while the pagan traditions are mostly aimed at celebrating life.

To the Christians here: Is dabbling in paganism worth the horrible death that will be deilvered to you by your spouce or your parents in accordance with your law?

The Bible is very clear that paganism is evil and the domain of the devil - so why would any Christian get involved with paganism? I don't understand where these so-called Christians come from, but I have yet to see them show any real commonality with the rest of the pagan community.

DarkHeart13
November 16th, 2004, 11:41 AM
Actually it was refereing to anyone who practiced witchcraft. Furthermore - Christians and Jews are told to stone to death anyone that worships any god other than Jehovah.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or you closet friends secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known, gods of the people around you, whether near of far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all of Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again" Deuteronomy 13:6-11.

Any Christian or Jew who worships other gods (minus Christ obviously) are neither Christian or Jew, and they're own family is supposed to murder them with stones according to the Bible. Christianity is a death cult, while the pagan traditions are mostly aimed at celebrating life.

To the Christians here: Is dabbling in paganism worth the horrible death that will be deilvered to you by your spouce or your parents in accordance with your law?

The Bible is very clear that paganism is evil and the domain of the devil - so why would any Christian get involved with paganism? I don't understand where these so-called Christians come from, but I have yet to see them show any real commonality with the rest of the pagan community.
This is why I never believed in Trinity. Jesus, to me, was a kind gentle sould who was out to teach the good things in life. HE celebrated life. Jesus understood flaws and JESUS forgives. GOD however is another story. God to me, expects everyone to be perfect. He is also the king of contradictions. Stone your family yet in the ten commandments Thou shalt not kill. God seems to me like someone who is ALWAYS unsure of himself. He's like Kerry, always changing his beliefs. No wonder Christians are interested in Paganism. Geeze, spare these people, will ya? Christianity ****s some people up..seriously. Yet surprisingly, it can do good to some. I still worship God because it is HE who created me and I feel I owe him something. But just because I respect him doesn't mean that I have to agree with EVERYTHING he says, especially when it goes against other statements he says. I believe in the Goddess too. But that's not worshiping any other deities because God has more than one face. He has to have a female side to him or how else would he have known what his created women would look like? In my beliefs, it is God who holds the wrath and the Goddess who holds "Da Love." God was pretty much against anything and everything at certain points of the Bible. You can't take it all word for word. You'd be a living case of hypocrit-itus then......
Sorry to all you Christians I'm disappointing. This is just how I believe. I love God, but he has a lot of shit to sort out..............
Blessed Be,
Jada Raine

Morning Star
November 16th, 2004, 12:28 PM
I believe in the Goddess too. But that's not worshiping any other deities because God has more than one face.

That is not in the Bible is it?

Betah
November 16th, 2004, 01:36 PM
Actually it was refereing to anyone who practiced witchcraft. Furthermore - Christians and Jews are told to stone to death anyone that worships any god other than Jehovah.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or you closet friends secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known, gods of the people around you, whether near of far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all of Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again" Deuteronomy 13:6-11.
I hate to have to point this out, but Deuteronomy is Old Testament and removed from importance in the New Testament , by that nice little "Love you neighbor as yourself" rule.

Any Christian or Jew who worships other gods (minus Christ obviously) are neither Christian or Jew, and they're own family is supposed to murder them with stones according to the Bible. Christianity is a death cult, while the pagan traditions are mostly aimed at celebrating life.
This is not the case and the summation of all Christianity as a death cult is plainly wrong, as the entire thing is about eternal life.

To the Christians here: Is dabbling in paganism worth the horrible death that will be deilvered to you by your spouce or your parents in accordance with your law?

The Bible is very clear that paganism is evil and the domain of the devil - so why would any Christian get involved with paganism? I don't understand where these so-called Christians come from, but I have yet to see them show any real commonality with the rest of the pagan community.The Bible is rarely clear on anything, unless you read beyond the Old Testament. They don't show commonality, because if they even reveal they are still Christians they usually end up spending hours arguing Bible verse with a hypocrite who doesn't even believe in it.

That is not in the Bible is it?Nor is a death cult, Matthew 22:29-36 makes this absolutely clear.
In summary; what Jesus said can be assumed to be closer to the word of God, than the laws contained in an OT verse.

Morning Star
November 16th, 2004, 02:01 PM
I'm sorry. I don't believe in Eternal Life. I also don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. So, understand, that Abrahamic religions do seem like death cults to me, being that there is life and death - Afterlife is just another term for death in my book. Its' an ideal people use to comfort their fear of death...it is also a way of demoting the importance of life on earth: i.e. "Who cares, I'll live forever in heaven." Jesus Christ on the Cross, Terrorists committing Suicide, Old Testament law - all evidence that Abrahamic Traditions are death cults. I can show you these - you can't show me your so called afterlife.

I suppose I understand where you are coming from and so long as so called Christian Wiccans don't attempt to speak for non-Christian pagans, we'll all live happily ever after - I just find this all a little too "far out" for me to stomach.

Also - Jesus did say that he was the only way to heaven and Paul is pretty clear that you shouldn't be worshiping other gods. I just don't see how anyone who reads and believes in the Bible would want anything to do with religious traditions that celebrate life and the natural state of man. I was raised Christian and have studied the Bible intensely. I was even set to go to Talbot Theological Seminary. So I'm not trying to say that Christianity is a "stupid" religion - I'm just saying that I find the Bible to be a complete contradiction of everything I believe...it is evil to me.

Betah
November 16th, 2004, 02:12 PM
I'm sorry. I don't believe in Eternal Life. I also don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. So, understand, that Abrahamic religions do seem like death cults to me, being that there is life and death - Afterlife is just another term for death in my book. Its' an ideal people use to comfort their fear of death...it is also a way of demoting the importance of life on earth: i.e. "Who cares, I'll live forever in heaven." Jesus Christ on the Cross, Terrorists committing Suicide, Old Testament law - all evidence that Abrahamic Traditions are death cults. I can show you these - you can't show me your so called afterlife.

I suppose I understand where you are coming from and so long as so called Christian Wiccans don't attempt to speak for non-Christian pagans, we'll all live happily ever after - I just find this all a little too "far out" for me to stomach. I'm going to have to play wise monkeys:seehearsp about that first bit, as I need to be somewhere, but remember that all religions make some claims that are unprovable. Also Christian Wiccans aren't going to have time to speak for anyone, what with all the defending of their views they have to do (I have it bad enough just for being Christian and doing things that Wiccans consider magic(k) ).

DarkHeart13
November 16th, 2004, 08:06 PM
That is not in the Bible is it?
It is in the Bible that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, yet they are separated as the trinity because of God's different personas. Ever heard of Christian Mysticism? Like the Holy Grail thing and all that? Well, let it be a myth that God is a woman or whatever....Here's what I believe...God has a face of ALL living things...therefore, he has many parts to him. As for the HUMAN parts, he has himself as God, his son Jesus, the Holy Spirit, he has himself as the Goddess.....why the Goddess? Because there are females and there must be SOMETHING to represent them. God can be anything he wants at any time he wants. He takes form of the Goddess when I'm drawing down the moon....He takes form of Jesus when I'm praying through him.....God is so powerful that he is all these things, I just choose to acknowledge it in a different way. Just because most Christians don't recognize God in his feminine form doesn't mean it's not there.

And what I said before, about God has a lot of shit to work out...I was wrong. I've come to a realization: The Bible has MANY contradictions AND GOD did not write that Bible. It is a book that has been translated and misinterpreted so many times that it couldn't possibly be accurate. I'm not saying take it all in as a grain of salt, but you can't go word for word. The scripture you mentioned was in the OT. Christians today no longer live by the OT. They live by the NT. They follow teachings of CHRIST. Christ never taught those evil things God spoke of in the OT because he wasn't around then. AND, you know why I think there are so many contradictions? This is gonna sound crazy, I know, but just let me vent...lol

God made so many contradictions because he felt differently at different times, during different situations. So he had his chosen ones to write about his feelings at these certain times. No one can help how they feel and that's just how God saw things. God knew there would be too many holes in the Bible and he thought of that as a good thing. Know why? He wanted his people to THINK FOR THEMSELVES. Yes, they should abide by God's will, but with how THEY percieve his teachings in the Bible. In the end we are all on our OWN individual path and no one is gonna get us to Heaven or wherever you plan on going but YOU. God's teachings may have been for all of us, but they weren't intended to be exactly the same for everyone. If you're on your own path, then what it comes down to is what YOU believe. No one else's beliefs matter. And God wanted people to take note of his feelings and apply them to the way they lived their life, but he doesn't want us doing something we feel isn't right, such as stoning your family member to death. That's why God gave us a conscience and FREE WILL. We should strive to make the BEST decisions in life that we can and if we screw up, God's not going to punish us, not if we truly believe in our hearts that we were doing the right thing and we did it in honor of God.
Anyway, that's just how I believe....If you don't feel the same way that's okay. I'm very serious about my path and I didn't come to Paganism to get the easy way out of Christianity. I honestly feel this is right for me and no one is going to make me think otherwise. If I listened to all you people who think Christian Witchcraft is wrong then I wouldn't be as sure of my beliefs as I'm saying. Believe what you want. At least I have beliefs which so many people do not.
If you're trying to prove me wrong it won't work. If you're trying to educate me, thank you.
Blessed Be,
Jada Raine

arctic splash
November 16th, 2004, 08:25 PM
I don't fully understand how someone can mix a monotheistic male oriented religion with a polytheistic balanced ( to me anyway) one, but as far as my opinion goes, if it satisfies that persons spiritual needs and brings them happiness and comfort without hurting others, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Well, there are *many* interpretations of Christianity, and it's not necessarily a male-oriented faith, even though the vast majority of mainstream sects do take it that way. Hebrew words for God in the Bible are sometimes feminine. There were the gnostics (and many other groups, I'm sure) that stressed the importance of the feminine.

My point is, if someone is open enough to combine pagan ideas with Christian ones, then that's also the sort of person who's likely to look beyond the mainstream interpretations of Christianity. Christianity *has* been patriarchal and hierarchical, but it doesn't have to be that way. I'm happy to see people who are opening new paths... like people on this site... and Matthew Fox, the episcopal priest, who talks about Goddess and the Divine Mother.

Betah
November 17th, 2004, 11:35 AM
Also - Jesus did say that he was the only way to heaven and Paul is pretty clear that you shouldn't be worshiping other gods. I just don't see how anyone who reads and believes in the Bible would want anything to do with religious traditions that celebrate life and the natural state of man. I was raised Christian and have studied the Bible intensely. I was even set to go to Talbot Theological Seminary. So I'm not trying to say that Christianity is a "stupid" religion - I'm just saying that I find the Bible to be a complete contradiction of everything I believe...it is evil to me.
1. Not all Christians believe in the Bible and the majority do not believe it is the absolute and literal word of God.
2. There are many, many ways of interpreting that particular verse, most that do not assume antagonism to other religions do not decry them.
3. Paul can say what he likes, Christians don't have to agree.
4. Intense Bible study rarely forms anything other than a rigid, dogmatic interpretation of what Christianity is; those who call themselves Christian Wiccans are highly unlikely to care about dogma, which isn't inalienable word of God.
5. What makes you think it's evil (beyond a few narrow minded people with loud mouths)?

Morning Star
November 17th, 2004, 01:53 PM
1. Not all Christians believe in the Bible and the majority do not believe it is the absolute and literal word of God.
2. There are many, many ways of interpreting that particular verse, most that do not assume antagonism to other religions do not decry them.
3. Paul can say what he likes, Christians don't have to agree.
4. Intense Bible study rarely forms anything other than a rigid, dogmatic interpretation of what Christianity is; those who call themselves Christian Wiccans are highly unlikely to care about dogma, which isn't inalienable word of God.
5. What makes you think it's evil (beyond a few narrow minded people with loud mouths)?

1. What is Christianity if not an adherence to the principles and scriptures in the Bible? I understand that many don't take everything literally - by most Christians believe most of the stuff in the Bible.

2. The Old Testament is very clear about being antagonistic toward other faiths and gods.

3. Paul's influence on Christianity is almost absolute - how you can be a Christian and not follow the teachings of Paul is beyond me. In fact, I would say that if you don't buy into Paul's Ideology... you are not Christian, you're Gnostic or something along those lines. Furthermore, if you don't agree with paul, why would you even want to call yourself a Christian?

4. Intense study of the Bible also produces knowledge. :)

5. The Bible and Christianity is evil, in my opinion for several reasons.

First, there are countless verses that support violence and the suppression of women. Second, there are countless accounts of violence actually being committed. Third, the Bible is an argument against Man as being a part of nature. Four, the Bible is filled with fear, anger, self-hatred, helplessness, weakness, sacrifice, submissiveness and so forth. I honestly view the Abrhamic religions as a kind of sickness or a kind of self-hatred, that has created a perfect God that has nothing to do whatsoever with our experience of this world. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim God is wrathful and jealous, often insecure and sadistic. Fifth, the Bible teaches people that money and knowledge are evil, whereas I believe that money and knowledge are virtues. Sixth, the Abrahamic religions have done much to suppress the instincts and intuitions - they say that human nature is evil, sinful...I think the opposite is true. I believe the natural human condition is virtuous and that the Abrahamic conditions are evil. I could go on and on...but its useless. I'll not be able to convince you. If you buy into Christian thinking, then you've already accepted a paradigm of faith that cannot be reasoned with. My religious beliefs are based on knowledge and observation, not faith. We just come at things from very different points of view, I suppose. I suppose that I came into the pagan community to get away from Christians and that kind of religious thinking...to find Christian mystics on a site like this just feels like an invasion of my privacy. I understand that Christian Wiccans have every right to their beliefs and ideologies and every right to access to the pagan community - I just dislike it personally.

Betah
November 17th, 2004, 03:11 PM
1. What is Christianity if not an adherence to the principles and scriptures in the Bible? I understand that many don't take everything literally - by most Christians believe most of the stuff in the Bible.

2. The Old Testament is very clear about being antagonistic toward other faiths and gods.
3. Paul's influence on Christianity is almost absolute - how you can be a Christian and not follow the teachings of Paul is beyond me. In fact, I would say that if you don't buy into Paul's Ideology... you are not Christian, you're Gnostic or something along those lines. Furthermore, if you don't agree with paul, why would you even want to call yourself a Christian?
It's an adherence to the principles Christ gave us, that's why it's not called Paulanity. Gnostic Christianity has been discussed in previous threads. I consider my own and thousands of strange forms of Christianity to be such because that is what (irrational discrimination aside) they are.

4. Intense study of the Bible also produces knowledge. :)
Intense study seems to have failed to give you a grasp of Christianity outside of the very narrow view espoused by the arrogant few.

5. The Bible and Christianity is evil, in my opinion for several reasons.

First, there are countless verses that support violence and the suppression of women. Second, there are countless accounts of violence actually being committed. Third, the Bible is an argument against Man as being a part of nature. Four, the Bible is filled with fear, anger, self-hatred, helplessness, weakness, sacrifice, submissiveness and so forth. I honestly view the Abrhamic religions as a kind of sickness or a kind of self-hatred, that has created a perfect God that has nothing to do whatsoever with our experience of this world. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim God is wrathful and jealous, often insecure and sadistic. Fifth, the Bible teaches people that money and knowledge are evil, whereas I believe that money and knowledge are virtues. Money a virtue?
Sixth, the Abrahamic religions have done much to suppress the instincts and intuitions - they say that human nature is evil, sinful...I think the opposite is true. I believe the natural human condition is virtuous and that the Abrahamic conditions are evil. I could go on and on...but its useless. I'll not be able to convince you. If you buy into Christian thinking, then you've already accepted a paradigm of faith that cannot be reasoned with. My religious beliefs are based on knowledge and observation, not faith.As are mine, point one is that rational thought is critical to making sure I am not being led by an emotional rant.
We just come at things from very different points of view, I suppose. I suppose that I came into the pagan community to get away from Christians and that kind of religious thinking...to find Christian mystics on a site like this just feels like an invasion of my privacy.Privacy on a public forum?
I understand that Christian Wiccans have every right to their beliefs and ideologies and every right to access to the pagan community - I just dislike it personally.
and apparently decry it with all the zeal and fervor of those people who made Christianity intolerable for you.

DarkHeart13
November 17th, 2004, 03:39 PM
1. What is Christianity if not an adherence to the principles and scriptures in the Bible? I understand that many don't take everything literally - by most Christians believe most of the stuff in the Bible.

2. The Old Testament is very clear about being antagonistic toward other faiths and gods.

3. Paul's influence on Christianity is almost absolute - how you can be a Christian and not follow the teachings of Paul is beyond me. In fact, I would say that if you don't buy into Paul's Ideology... you are not Christian, you're Gnostic or something along those lines. Furthermore, if you don't agree with paul, why would you even want to call yourself a Christian?

4. Intense study of the Bible also produces knowledge. :)

5. The Bible and Christianity is evil, in my opinion for several reasons.

First, there are countless verses that support violence and the suppression of women. Second, there are countless accounts of violence actually being committed. Third, the Bible is an argument against Man as being a part of nature. Four, the Bible is filled with fear, anger, self-hatred, helplessness, weakness, sacrifice, submissiveness and so forth. I honestly view the Abrhamic religions as a kind of sickness or a kind of self-hatred, that has created a perfect God that has nothing to do whatsoever with our experience of this world. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim God is wrathful and jealous, often insecure and sadistic. Fifth, the Bible teaches people that money and knowledge are evil, whereas I believe that money and knowledge are virtues. Sixth, the Abrahamic religions have done much to suppress the instincts and intuitions - they say that human nature is evil, sinful...I think the opposite is true. I believe the natural human condition is virtuous and that the Abrahamic conditions are evil. I could go on and on...but its useless. I'll not be able to convince you. If you buy into Christian thinking, then you've already accepted a paradigm of faith that cannot be reasoned with. My religious beliefs are based on knowledge and observation, not faith. We just come at things from very different points of view, I suppose. I suppose that I came into the pagan community to get away from Christians and that kind of religious thinking...to find Christian mystics on a site like this just feels like an invasion of my privacy. I understand that Christian Wiccans have every right to their beliefs and ideologies and every right to access to the pagan community - I just dislike it personally.
I haven't read all the posts regarding to yours but I just saw this and so I thought I'd respond. Christians no longer follow the Old Testament. When Jesus was crucified, the New Testament was written as a new way of life. In the Old Testament God was harsh because he was afraid his people would betray him again. When Jesus was born they followed CHRIST'S teachings more than that of God because Christ was the Messiah, the new teacher, the new God manifested in the flesh. The OT is still a part of the Bible to understand the history of the people and how it's teachings came to be to what they are today. And a lot of Christians don't take the Bible too literal because there are so many different versions, so many new scriptures found and so many that are to be found.....Christianity is meant to be simple for an idiot could do it. With all these new discoverings and such it is becoming harder to be a Christian so now Christians rely on their faith in God to do the right thing instead of reading a holy book that may not be so holy after all. God is in the spirit. Words mean nothing. It's how he moves within you.

IvyWitch
November 17th, 2004, 05:12 PM
I suppose that I came into the pagan community to get away from Christians and that kind of religious thinking...to find Christian mystics on a site like this just feels like an invasion of my privacy. I understand that Christian Wiccans have every right to their beliefs and ideologies and every right to access to the pagan community - I just dislike it personally.

Ok, a few things here that I don't quite understand..

You came to this forum, or you became Pagan to get away from Christians and fundamentalism? Well, if that's the case then I think I ought to tell you that there are Pagan fundies too.

Second.....you're saying that Christians are intolerant and narrowminded, but the fact that a Christian can get things out of Paganism and want to talk to Pagans on the internet bothers you. So, please explain to me how you're being any LESS narrowminded and intolerant than the Christians you seem to despise so much. Besides, how much edification can you get in your own faith if you only talk to people you agree with?

And, I agree with Betah. This is the internet, and this a public forum. Complete and total privacy doesn't happen on the internet.

DarkHeart13
November 17th, 2004, 05:32 PM
Ok, a few things here that I don't quite understand..

You came to this forum, or you became Pagan to get away from Christians and fundamentalism? Well, if that's the case then I think I ought to tell you that there are Pagan fundies too.

Second.....you're saying that Christians are intolerant and narrowminded, but the fact that a Christian can get things out of Paganism and want to talk to Pagans on the internet bothers you. So, please explain to me how you're being any LESS narrowminded and intolerant than the Christians you seem to despise so much. Besides, how much edification can you get in your own faith if you only talk to people you agree with?

And, I agree with Betah. This is the internet, and this a public forum. Complete and total privacy doesn't happen on the internet.
Well said! I'd touch your karma but I don't have enough! lol.....
Blessed Be,
Jada Raine

Morning Star
November 18th, 2004, 12:09 AM
First - I'm not intolerant of Christian beliefs. I think they are some of the worst beliefs on the market, but hey, whatever floats your boat. The "Christian" wiccans here do seem a bit more Christian than Wiccan - I'm not saying they shouldn't be here - I'm just disappointed that they are.

If there is one thing I've learned, it is to never argue religion in the abstract, because no one is ever convinced by mere argument or logic where faith is concerned. I suppose I'm coming off more harsh than I really feel, but I should be entitled to my dislike of these so-called Christian Wiccans, should I not? At no time have I tried to censor them or tell them they have no right to their beliefs. Furthermore, I don't consider myself narrowminded, because I am not saying that my way is the only way, I'm merely expressing my opinion that the Christian way lacks value. I should be allowed to believe that and so long as I do not argue that they should be cencored or sent away, I think I can qualify as openminded. Remember - open minded doesn't mean you don't have opinions.

IvyWitch
November 18th, 2004, 09:41 AM
First - I'm not intolerant of Christian beliefs. I think they are some of the worst beliefs on the market, but hey, whatever floats your boat. The "Christian" wiccans here do seem a bit more Christian than Wiccan - I'm not saying they shouldn't be here - I'm just disappointed that they are.

If there is one thing I've learned, it is to never argue religion in the abstract, because no one is ever convinced by mere argument or logic where faith is concerned. I suppose I'm coming off more harsh than I really feel, but I should be entitled to my dislike of these so-called Christian Wiccans, should I not? At no time have I tried to censor them or tell them they have no right to their beliefs. Furthermore, I don't consider myself narrowminded, because I am not saying that my way is the only way, I'm merely expressing my opinion that the Christian way lacks value. I should be allowed to believe that and so long as I do not argue that they should be cencored or sent away, I think I can qualify as openminded. Remember - open minded doesn't mean you don't have opinions.

Yes, but remember there is one rule here, and that is respect. And while you're entitled to your opinion about the beliefs of others, you are required to show respect towards everyone here no matter what thier beliefs are. To you Christianity may be a disgusting waste of time, but there are many many people including myself who find wonderful and life affirming spiritual fulfillment within it. Like I said, you're entitled to you opinion, but you know it is possible to state it without being abrasive and insulting.

mol
November 18th, 2004, 11:13 AM
If there is one thing I've learned, it is to never argue religion in the abstract, because no one is ever convinced by mere argument or logic where faith is concerned. I suppose I'm coming off more harsh than I really feel, but I should be entitled to my dislike of these so-called Christian Wiccans, should I not? At no time have I tried to censor them or tell them they have no right to their beliefs. Furthermore, I don't consider myself narrowminded, because I am not saying that my way is the only way, I'm merely expressing my opinion that the Christian way lacks value. I should be allowed to believe that and so long as I do not argue that they should be cencored or sent away, I think I can qualify as openminded. Remember - open minded doesn't mean you don't have opinions.
mol MODE

Let me make this as clear as I possibly can. You are entitled to your opinions. You are entitled to believe what you want about Christians, Christian Wiccans, etc, but you are not allowed to disrespect their Paths by calling them 'so-called religions' or whatever. It is possible to voice your opinion, even if it is on the negative side, without being disrespectful.

So far your posts seem to skirt the edges of respect. From an outside view it could be said that your posts are nothing but jabs at the CHristian faith masked in opinion.

As far as this goes:


The "Christian" wiccans here do seem a bit more Christian than Wiccan - I'm not saying they shouldn't be here - I'm just disappointed that they are.
Everyone is welcome here. Even Christians. Dont make them feel unwelcome again, because I can fix that disappointment, although probably not in the way you would like.

Aidron
November 18th, 2004, 11:26 AM
The "Christian" wiccans here do seem a bit more Christian than Wiccan - I'm not saying they shouldn't be here - I'm just disappointed that they are.

This is the same kind of mentality among groups such as gay people that keeps them from achieving their goals-equality. You people wish to isolate yourselves from your own personal demons (and that's all they are, personal demons for you) that you create the rift much more than anyone else. Get a clue, please. :rolleyes:


If there is one thing I've learned, it is to never argue religion in the abstract, because no one is ever convinced by mere argument or logic where faith is concerned. I suppose I'm coming off more harsh than I really feel, but I should be entitled to my dislike of these so-called Christian Wiccans, should I not? At no time have I tried to censor them or tell them they have no right to their beliefs. Furthermore, I don't consider myself narrowminded, because I am not saying that my way is the only way, I'm merely expressing my opinion that the Christian way lacks value. I should be allowed to believe that and so long as I do not argue that they should be cencored or sent away, I think I can qualify as openminded. Remember - open minded doesn't mean you don't have opinions.

I don't consider you to be narrow minded at all as well. I consider you to be extremely narrow minded and downright nasty with your choice of words.

Morning Star
November 18th, 2004, 05:15 PM
:) I suppose I'll leave this thread alone as it appears I'll just end up getting myself in trouble, but I at no time expressed a categorical condemnation of the Christian Wiccan path, but merely stated my own opinions, which I may or may not be entitled to here. However, being that I feel strongly about such things, I will respectfully refrain from commenting further as I have literally no intention of making anyone feel unwelcome, even if people like myself are. If anyone was offended unduely by my comments, my apologies.

Athene
November 27th, 2004, 04:01 PM
Hello everyone,

Hope you all enjoyed the full moon.

I'm so glad to have found this thread, not sure how I missed it. Lots of good interaction here (as well as silly ones - fancy disliking a whole group of people!? lol)

I'm a Chrisian witch, and I have taught for many years (non-spiritual), it's part of my character. I have felt drawn to 'teaching' in a more spiritual sense in the last few years and was encouraged by a new witch to share my thoughts, hence my site (latest article - abominations (http://christianwitchery.bravehost.com/bible3.htm) ).

I'm glad I've done this because there is just so much misunderstanding: between Christians, between Christians and witches, between Christians and Pagans, between Christian witches and Pagans... you get my drift. But I also see a lot of confusion amongst Christian witches themselves.

We all learn in our own time, so it's okay to be confused. It's more than okay! Confusion is a chance for enlightenment. :D I make it a goal to be confused at least once a day. _travolta_
Although it does alarm me a little to find Christian witches creating their own religions or 'picking and choosing' from the Bible as fits their practices.

I will always argue for the right of anyone to do as they please. And if it pleases you to have a 'pick and choose' spirituality then so it is.

It is simply a personal belief that if one is to actually take on a label, it should mean something. If you want to be eclectic, then great. But if you're going to stick a label on yourself, meaning should have a place in that.

For me, if you enjoy the teachings of Christ but want to worship several dieties, then you are not a Christian. But you could be a Christo-Pagan or an Eclectic Pagan.
Please don't be offended, this is my personal belief on what the terms mean, I believe that anyone can call themselves what they like. :)

For those that do feel that they are Christian, then I believe that there is no need to feel antagonistic towards the Bible or to 'pick and choose'. Taking passages that you like and ignoring those that don't fit into your practices is weak theology imho.
For instance, I might like some teachings of Buddha but if I don't accept the whole package into my life, I won't call myself a Buddhist.
A poster made the comment along the lines of, 'witchcraft is wrong but we don't all read the bible literally'. Yikes!
If you truly believe that the Bible is saying witchcraft is wrong for you/us now, then it might be best that you didn't practice it, or, that you didn't call yourself a Christian.

Some of you might be thinking now, 'hold on, you said that you were a Christian witch, if you're not keen on picking and choosing, how can you reconcile Christianity with witchcraft?'

I won't say 'easy', because it isn't. Spirituality takes work. But I will say, do-able. More than do-able.
I have taken The Book in my hands and placed Godde firmly in my heart and
a) tried to find where witchcraft etc was okay
b) tried to disprove myself

I was unable to do b.

This is what makes me a Christian witch. :boing:

If a person truly believes that Christianity and Wicca are reconcilable, then I can't, and won't, argue with that. But if that person is taking only the bits that they like, then I would say, stick to what you like, but consider taking on another label. That's all.

The Christo-Pagans seem to have understood this, are there Christo-Wiccans out there? ;)

What I have found in the Pagan community (and I don't mean at all to sound pompous, and it could of course be just my experience), is that people are so hungry to take on labels, possibly because it's our nature to need classification (Darwin would be so proud of me :nyah: ). Yet this hunger seems more prevalent then the hunger for knowledge, wisdom and enlightenment.

I believe that there would be far less friction and conflict if we strived for those things first. When I hear Christian witches denouncing the Bible, or worse somehow, parts of it, I do wonder about that eternal chicken and egg: was it the label or the knowledge first?

This is a great website, I can't get enough! _happydanc

In Love and Light

Gypsy Wyccan
November 27th, 2004, 06:03 PM
As the author of Christian Wicca: the Trinitarian Tradition, I must point out the greatest problem that our path has is in definition of terms. Personally, I am Wiccan and I practice Witchcraft, I simply choose the Christian Pantheon. I have no use for "Church" and I have never believed that "The Bible" was the do-all/be-all holy writ for Christianity. In that respect, to the Christian Fundies, I am a heretic and a blasphemer. I use the Bible only for Psalms spellcasting.

I traveled as a professional musician most of my life. In 1999, my touring life ended and I stepped into the local Pagan Community for the first time. I was shocked that Pagan practitioners were not familiar with Christian magick - especially as close as we are to New Orleans!! It was just the way I always practiced spells and divination in my travels and decided to progress my own magickal path into covencraft. Boy was I in for a rude awakening!!

Owning an occult shoppe and holding public circles, I soon found that few area Neo-Pagans could actually perform the most basic tasks in our circles. I always had to cast the circle, coach those who called the quadrants, nod "now" to people who take it upon themselves to perform a part, etc. It was hard for me to coach newbies and actually get the meaning of the circle many times. Please! don't get me wrong, I love to instruct basic ritual ettiquette classes - unfortunately, after 4 years of holding sabbats and esbats, many pentacle-wearing folks still have not applied any of the classes to memory and definitely not to understanding. So, it has always been very frustrating to me when an anti-Christian Neo-Pagan/Wiccan says "Oh you are a wanna-be Wiccan, if you say your Christian!!" . . . when those very same people have no knowledge of the history of Paganism, experience in energy manipulation or invocation - they usually don't really know the seasonal purpose of the ritual, and as for magickal correspondences of herbs, oils, moon phases, planetary seals . . . well, that's a lifetime of study for all of us, anyway.

I'm definitely non-dogmatic in my Christian choice of Jesus as Lord and Shekinah as Lady (especially since there is no Christian Goddess - *wink wink* - argh!!) , but I am far from being eclectic. Eclectic implies that a practitioner takes useful and meaning parts from various religions and uses them collectively. I can honestly say that I do not do that. My spiritual variety of gods, goddesses, angels, and saints are limited to those of the Judeo-Christian Kabbalah, Gnosticism, Folk and Indigenous Christianity.

My husband, who is agnostic, has given me the greatest compliment of my life: "You are Christian not because of the Church, but DESPITE the Church!!" I had not thought of it in that way before - but he's right. I celebrate the Lord and Lady in a circle, not in a church. I do not follow the Bible, I follow the Wiccan Rede. My pantheon of choice is Christian. The concept of attending church is very stiffling to me - the messages make me angry and that is not the point of spirituality.

The most common parallel Christian Wiccans tend to use is: "We are much the same as Dianic Wiccans who work with many Gods but with Diana as the primary Goddess. In my path as a Christian Wiccan, I work with many Goddesses but I work with Jesus as the primary God. I don't expect everyone to like my book, especially as a first time author - but I knew there were many people torn between their Christian upbringing and Wicca, I merely tried to aid them in bridging the gap!!

Thanks for your time - Blessed Be!!

Humming Bird
November 27th, 2004, 09:08 PM
Do you support Christain-Wicca?

yeah i suport it, i dont understand it but i support it, i mean who am i to say Christian-Wicca is pointless? im not a Christian-Wiccan but i have nothing against them :)

Athene
November 28th, 2004, 07:26 AM
My husband, who is agnostic, has given me the greatest compliment of my life: "You are Christian not because of the Church, but DESPITE the Church!!"

I hear you!

:fpeace:

Ninjakitten
November 29th, 2004, 07:27 PM
"You are Christian not because of the Church, but DESPITE the Church!!" !

I second Athene's sentiments on that one!

maria-margarita
December 3rd, 2004, 07:57 PM
Do you support Christain-Wicca?


Wow I never thought that could be. Hmm that is something I would like to learn more about. But anyway I'll be in favor for it. :fpompoms

Billy Pilgrim
December 3rd, 2004, 09:45 PM
Hm.. this is a toughie. I'd say that since neither Christianity nor Wicca has an exact and precise definition that all of followers of each would agree on, this question is not valid.

I think it's possible (and more importantly, LOGICAL) for a Wiccan to recognize Christ and the Christian god as one pathway to "enlightenment", and to respect the Christian god, whereas I do not see it being possible for strict Christians to worship Gods other than their own as it very flatly points out in the Bible not to worship any other God before the Christian God.

I think it's only logical that a Christian is a follower of Christ and a follower of Christ is a follower of the Bible, which names witchcraft and paganism as sins. As a follower of the Bible, a Christian could not possibly be a Wiccan as well without being hypocritical and blaspheming, thus defeating the purpose of being Christian to begin with.

Athene
December 5th, 2004, 02:31 PM
I think it's only logical that a Christian is a follower of Christ and a follower of Christ is a follower of the Bible, which names witchcraft and paganism as sins. As a follower of the Bible, a Christian could not possibly be a Wiccan as well without being hypocritical and blaspheming, thus defeating the purpose of being Christian to begin with.

Blessings Billy Pilgrim,

Please allow me to clarify a couple of things.

Firstly, 'Christian' is a label which is why there is no consensus to what leading a Christian life is, or what are Christian beliefs.

At the core, I believe that true Christianity means following the teachings of Christ. Full stop/period.

As for following the Bible, this is open to debate. Some Christians reject the Old Testament, others interpret the entire Bible literally and strictly, others read the Bible as a historical document with stories, and many more interpretations that are valid religious views.

That the Bible rejects witchcraft as a sin is open to debate and dependant on how you read the Bible.

If you're interested, you might like to read the articles here (http://www.christianwitchery.bravehost.com/bible1.htm).

As a Christian witch that reads the Bible as inspired by Godde and as a tool for guidance about Godde's message to us, I have no spiritual qualms with being a witch.

I don't find anything in Wicca that I need, but as there are crossroads here with our paths I thought that it was okay to add my 2 pence/cents worth.

Personally, I believe strongly in 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

So I don't need or want others gods to access the Ultimate Divine. However, not all Christian wiccans worship others gods, or accept the Bible for that matter.

Imho, I find the term Christo-Wiccan much more clear and appropriate, but everyone has the right to call themselves what suits them on their spiritual journey.

much Love & Light

maria-margarita
December 5th, 2004, 10:48 PM
OK I know this sounds crazy. But is there really such things as a Christian Witch? I really had no clue. See I was brought up being aChristian. I believe in Christ and all of that stuff. In fact I try to be the best I can as a person love without judgment. I don't try to save souls. Because I also believe in live and let live.
All of my life I have felt more different then a lot of other believers. I use be judge harshly for some of my thought and things I just couldn't control. I do not wish to explain at this time. It took me a long time to see they as gifts from God and not tools of the devil. Like I have been told from childhood.
I still believe in my Christian faith. But at the same time I feel that I so different from others Christians that can just stick to the path of going to church and ect. Trust me I have try to go to church and everytime I walk into a church I just feel I don't beleive there. Not agaist the people. They have been nice to me. But I just feel there is something more and different about me and those kinds of Christians. I always felt closer to nature and another things That is why I find this so fascinating.

Athene
December 6th, 2004, 06:59 AM
Blessings Maria-Margarita,

There most certainly is such a thing as a Christian witch. :welcome:

I have been one for approx 15 years. :)

You might find my website helpful: www.christianwitch.net, and there are some others out there.

This thread is for Christian Wiccans, which is different.

I can't say whether you are a witch from what you've shared. But I would suggest reading as much as you can to determine if this is or isn't your path. You may find that you're not a witch at all, but a different path along the Christian faith.

bright blessings to you

--------------

maria-margarita
December 6th, 2004, 03:49 PM
Thank you Athene,
I'm going to to look into the web site. You help bring a smile on my face today.
Be Blessed



Blessings Maria-Margarita,

There most certainly is such a thing as a Christian witch. :welcome:

I have been one for approx 15 years. :)

You might find my website helpful: www.christianwitch.net, and there are some others out there.

This thread is for Christian Wiccans, which is different.

I can't say whether you are a witch from what you've shared. But I would suggest reading as much as you can to determine if this is or isn't your path. You may find that you're not a witch at all, but a different path along the Christian faith.

bright blessings to you

--------------

whitewater
December 8th, 2004, 12:48 PM
Do you support Christain-Wicca?

i support it, because really, the whole deal with religion is whatever floats your boat. :)

MorningDove030202
December 21st, 2004, 09:31 AM
I find it hard to believe that someone can on one hand belive in the need to be "saved" and be Wiccan at the same time, which is why I think a more accurate term for Wiccans, would be "Wiccan for Jesus". Claiming "Christian" means (in my belief) that you also claim the need to be "saved". As far as Christian Witch, I see no issues there, as Witch can be a secular skill and not always a religion.

So anyway, my issue is the "saved" part, not necessarily the "Christian" part, if that makes any sence. I personaly find that Jesus had some realy cool things to say about the human condition, and I think he's a son of God like we are all sons and daughters of God, but I don't worship him, or feel there is something to be saved from.

Dove

WingedTigerChild
December 21st, 2004, 09:59 AM
I find it hard to believe that someone can on one hand belive in the need to be "saved" and be Wiccan at the same time, which is why I think a more accurate term for Wiccans, would be "Wiccan for Jesus". Claiming "Christian" means (in my belief) that you also claim the need to be "saved". As far as Christian Witch, I see no issues there, as Witch can be a secular skill and not always a religion.

So anyway, my issue is the "saved" part, not necessarily the "Christian" part, if that makes any sence. I personaly find that Jesus had some realy cool things to say about the human condition, and I think he's a son of God like we are all sons and daughters of God, but I don't worship him, or feel there is something to be saved from.

Dove
Yes, mainstream Christianity says that you have to be 'saved' to be a Christian, but that's just it...it's a mainstream idea, and does not necessarily reflect the beliefs of every Christian. Also, there are different points of view as to what 'saved' is. Example: It could mean enlightenment by following the teachings of Christ, which reflects the teachings of Buddha and many of the prophets of the major world religions.

IvyWitch
December 21st, 2004, 10:32 AM
It's not even a "maintstream" idea. It's a fundamentalist idea, and as much as they would like everyone to believe that they're the majority of Christians, they're not.

And, the idea of being "saved" doesn't have to be incompatible with Paganism. Paganism is by it's very nature an adaptable belief system. Fpr a Christian-Pagan to say that they are saved really just begs the question "saved from what?". It doesn't have to be "saved from satan" or "saved from witchcraft". It's more of a "saved from an eternity without God". That's really all it means. Saved in the Bible is a reference to the afterlife - heaven and hell. But it's also not an accepted fact that hell is some physical place where you're tortered by the devil for eternity. I think the more accepted idea is that hell may be a physical or non physical place, but it's essentially a seperation from God (and before anyone goes arguing that "well, I don't believe in him so I'm already in hell", a connection to any God counts, and here God is everywhere so even an atheist has some sort of connection whether or not he believes he does); the idea of fire and brimstone comes from writings like Dante's Inferno.

MorningDove030202
December 21st, 2004, 11:55 AM
I have alwayse assumed that to be Christian you have to be Saved. It is in the Nicean (sp?) creede I think. I'd like to know just how many denominations feel that you have to be Saved in the traditional sence, and how many have some other interpretation of being saved. I think if "Christian" groups are redefining "Saved" they might want to find a new lable, because even Christians are going to say they arn't Christian.

Dove

IvyWitch
December 21st, 2004, 12:27 PM
Really, it's the Born Agains and/or Evangellicals and those groups that really place an emphasis on being saved. I've never been to a non-pentacostal church (which are all evangellical) so I don't really know what denominations don't, but I would wager to say denoms. like Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists don't place a heavy emphasis on it.

But like I said, the concept of needing to be saved isn't incompatible with Paganism. Witch Wicca, yeah I would have to say it may be incompatible, but only depending on how rigidly one defines who is and who isn't Wiccan.

Fang of Loki
December 21st, 2004, 02:26 PM
I voted "No, it's a contradiction of terms".

Athene
December 21st, 2004, 02:57 PM
I have alwayse assumed that to be Christian you have to be Saved. It is in the Nicean (sp?) creede I think.

I think if "Christian" groups are redefining "Saved" they might want to find a new lable, because even Christians are going to say they arn't Christian.

Blessings Dove,

The Nicene Creed was compiled in the 4th century by a council in an attempt to unify the church.

The Nicene Creed has nothing to do with me, a Christian, and with many, many other Christians. My Christianity is about my personal relationship with Godde and with Christ: not with a church, not with a mainstream belief system.

As for using another label, I had a long discussion with another MW member about this. S/he couldn't understand why I would choose to use a label that had so much negative meaning attached to it, such as intolerance of other religions and so on.

I for one have been, and am still on, a long spiritual journey. I have never wavered from my Christian faith but I most definitely have moved away from church beliefs. As I believe that Christ was an appointed son of god (and I need to use the word appointed because I don't believe in 'son of god' as many Christians do) and I believe in His teachings and His way, then I am a Christian.

I don't think that I should give up the label because so many have formed religions based on Christ-ian & Biblical interpretation that have nothing to do with my own. It is nothing new to have Christians that centre their lives on the teachings of Christ and renounce church/mainstream Christianity.

Pagan and witch are vague terms but we shouldn't reject them for this, should we? I think it is better to stand firm in what you believe and help educate those that want to listen.

Labels are only that, and it would make the human race that little bit more enlightened if we didn't assume we understood/knew someone simply by a label they chose to use. When someone persecutes me simply because they hear that I am a Christian, this means very little to me. It says much more about the persecutor than about me.

hope you're all having a blessed Winter solstice

WingedTigerChild
December 21st, 2004, 03:27 PM
It is nothing new to have Christians that centre their lives on the teachings of Christ and renounce church/mainstream Christianity.
Very true, Athene. Just have a look into Gnosticism, or Christian Mysticism.

MorningDove030202
December 22nd, 2004, 12:32 PM
I duno, if I was a "Progressive Christian Witch/Wiccan" that was not into the "saved" aspect of mainstream Chrsitianity, I would want a different name to seperate me from the fundamentalist Christian types, but I guess that's just me.

Sometimes I do claim Wiccan for Jesus, un a Unitarian Univeralist kinda way, but that's as far as I go.

Dove

Athene
December 22nd, 2004, 01:11 PM
I duno, if I was a "Progressive Christian Witch/Wiccan" that was not into the "saved" aspect of mainstream Chrsitianity, I would want a different name to seperate me from the fundamentalist Christian types, but I guess that's just me.

And I respect thats what you need.

Personally, I prefer to not be shoved out by the fundamentalists, Christian or Pagan. *wink*

I believe in the teachings of Christ, so Christian fits perfectly.

My personal spirituality is a complex mix and doesn't fit neatly into a religion, which is why I don't see myself as religious at all, as I don't follow a religion, but I do see myself as spiritual and do follow Christ, and back we are to Christian....

Christian Mystic Monotheistic mostly kitchen witch would probably be more accurate, but I'm too lazy to write/say that each time somebody enquires.

lol

On a serious note, I want to be united with other Christians and other witches. I'm all for searching for similarities rather than requiring further distinctions.

blessings

DarkWaltz
December 22nd, 2004, 02:01 PM
ok I am just going to dive in here sorry I havent read through all the previous posts but here is my view,
I have been a christian and I am now well a student witch, but there is certainly no way I could be both trust me, I used to work at a church as an altar server the beleifs neither match nor would christians ever ever accept witches within their church,
I mean My goodness they refer to witches as satans troops , If you went to a predominantly Christian forum and made a thread on witchcraft I would be very very suprised if they accepted it.

IvyWitch
December 22nd, 2004, 05:57 PM
ok I am just going to dive in here sorry I havent read through all the previous posts but here is my view,
I have been a christian and I am now well a student witch, but there is certainly no way I could be both trust me, I used to work at a church as an altar server the beleifs neither match nor would christians ever ever accept witches within their church,
I mean My goodness they refer to witches as satans troops , If you went to a predominantly Christian forum and made a thread on witchcraft I would be very very suprised if they accepted it.

Yes, but just because the church doesn't accept you doesnt mean that God won't accept you either. There's a difference.

It may be dishonest, but I choose not to tell anyone in my church at least the full extent of my witchy beliefs, and a lot of the time I choose not to share my faith in Jesus with my Pagan friends. Most of the time what I believe in is just between God and me.

Athene
December 22nd, 2004, 06:45 PM
I have been a christian and I am now well a student witch, but there is certainly no way I could be both trust me, I used to work at a church as an altar server the beleifs neither match nor would christians ever ever accept witches within their church

I would love to trust you but I'm afraid that I couldn't disagree with you more than I do. :)


If you went to a predominantly Christian forum and made a thread on witchcraft I would be very very suprised if they accepted it.

I can't say that I have much interest in being 'accepted' by any church, Christian or otherwise, nor in being accepted by mainstream Christians. I can say that I have much interest in having a deep connection to the Divine and leading a Christ-centred life.

Do a google on Christian witches. If you come from a Christian background you probably should discover other interpretations other than those of the churches you have experienced. And do check the other thread I started, that should prove interesting to you and me.

Ivywitch, protecting yourself by witholding information is perfectly understandable. My husband knows he married a witch, but his family would have a heartattack as the whole concept would be unfathomable to them. Why disrupt family harmony? I don't need them to know, and they don't need to know. As you say, between me and Godde.

be blessed

MorningDove030202
December 22nd, 2004, 09:30 PM
Hey, I had a question here......

Do Christian Witches/Wiccan go to a Christian Church? and if so, what denominations?

I think I'd find the info on denominations interesting.

Dove

IvyWitch
December 22nd, 2004, 09:42 PM
Hey, I had a question here......

Do Christian Witches/Wiccan go to a Christian Church? and if so, what denominations?

I think I'd find the info on denominations interesting.

Dove

Obviously I can't answer for everyone, I but I do. I go to a pentacostal church, lots of clapping and happy energetic worship, and it's a church where lifting your arms in the Goddess pose won't get you looked at funny. ^_^

MorningDove030202
December 22nd, 2004, 09:48 PM
Convienent! I must have went to the most boring church as a kid....... Presbyterian.

Do you don't feel at odds with going to church and you witchy studdies? Have you told anyone? Frankly the thought of attending a Christian church terifies me!

Someone should set up a poll for this question.....
Dove

IvyWitch
December 22nd, 2004, 11:02 PM
Convienent! I must have went to the most boring church as a kid....... Presbyterian.

Heh, I share your pain. I went to a catholic church as a kid. No offense to Catholics, but man I think all those years of stand up, sit down, stand up, kneel, sit down had a hand in my breaking my knee. =)


Do you don't feel at odds with going to church and you witchy studdies? Have you told anyone? Frankly the thought of attending a Christian church terifies me!


Well, kindasortanotreally. I don't really feel at odds, I just feel split. It's easy, and expected of you sometimes, to just sit there and accept what you're told, but I take the sermons and process them. Really, church is like what a coven is for Pagans - it's a family kind of group where you can learn about and worship God. However I don't make mention of my Paganism, and the fact that I can't makes me a little uncomfortable. But at the same time I have a few Pagan friends that I can't tell about my Christianity either. *shrug* I try to take it in stride.

Really, what I would like to do is be part of a group of Christwitches (mm, yummy) that meet online or in person during the week for our own kind of church service. But, I don't know how realistic it is.

Honestly, I do happen to really like the prayer and worship services in pentacostal churches, it's just very powerful and full of energy.

Does that answer your question at all, or am I just rambling?

Athene
December 23rd, 2004, 04:30 AM
Really, what I would like to do is be part of a group of Christwitches (mm, yummy) that meet online or in person during the week for our own kind of church service. But, I don't know how realistic it is.

Very realistic. *wink*

IvyWitch
December 23rd, 2004, 09:06 AM
Very realistic. *wink*

=)

MorningDove030202
December 23rd, 2004, 09:13 AM
I think it would be cool if christian witches started their own denomination that was more like a church than a coven. There are somethings I still like better about churches compared to covens. Like, I like being about to go on sunday morning and that anyone can come, it's not invitation only, it's always open to the public. And it could include a more libeal practice of Christanity and witchy/occult stuff to.

Dove

IvyWitch
December 23rd, 2004, 10:07 AM
I entertained the idea of joining a UU church, but there isn't an active CUUPS anywhere near where I live....and UU isn't exactly a Christian denomination. But I guess that and UCC (United Church of Christ) are probably the two big liberal denominations where Christwitches would be accepted.

Hmm....Christwitch....kind of sounds like a snack. Take two catholic communion wafers and put some whipped cream in the middle? :T

MorningDove030202
December 23rd, 2004, 10:50 AM
I entertained the idea of joining a UU church, but there isn't an active CUUPS anywhere near where I live....and UU isn't exactly a Christian denomination. But I guess that and UCC (United Church of Christ) are probably the two big liberal denominations where Christwitches would be accepted.

Hmm....Christwitch....kind of sounds like a snack. Take two catholic communion wafers and put some whipped cream in the middle? :T

You're bad! LOL

Ya, my UU doesn't have a CUUPS group either (covenant of UU pagans) and I tried to start one, but my congregation is just way to small. So, since that didn't work out, I got interested in the www.witchschool.com, which has freaked out alot of the UU people! LOL I find it all very hypocritical. I find my self being disapointed by them more and more. They did a kids christmas presentation and didn't say anything about winter solstice or the other holidays. It's a shame...

Dove

DarkWaltz
December 23rd, 2004, 01:09 PM
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, I was brought up in the Christian path it is not like I do not know what I am talking about.
I am now a witch~But I am certainly not both.
but still I wish you well in all you do :bigblue:

Athene
December 23rd, 2004, 01:49 PM
Blessings Darkwaltz,

I'm not sure you and I are disagreeing. If you say that you are not both, then you're not. That's your choice.

What I'm saying is that you most certainly CAN be both if you wanted to be both. There is nothing, zilch, nada, in my paths that conflict.

Being brought up a Christian only means that you know Christianity in how you were brought up, in what you experienced and in what you studied. Having being a Christian once, or still being a Christian, doesn't mean you understand Christianity or what being a Christian means, or that there are all sorts of differing viewpoints still within the Christian system.
I'm not saying that YOU don't know, I'm saying that anyone having the title Christian doesn't mean they know everything about Christianity in the world.

I've heard countless Christians telling me 'truths'. I've also listened to countless non-Christians that are better informed or more spiritually inclined. *wink*

be blessed fellow witch
:)

IvyWitch
December 23rd, 2004, 02:12 PM
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, I was brought up in the Christian path it is not like I do not know what I am talking about.
I am now a witch~But I am certainly not both.
but still I wish you well in all you do :bigblue:

Nobody is saying that you don't know what you're talking about. We're just saying that there're more than one way to be a Christian. *shrug* Disagreeing with something the church or your parents taught you about Christianity doesn't mean you're wrong.

Damia
December 23rd, 2004, 02:32 PM
Yes, but just because the church doesn't accept you doesnt mean that God won't accept you either. There's a difference.

It may be dishonest, but I choose not to tell anyone in my church at least the full extent of my witchy beliefs, and a lot of the time I choose not to share my faith in Jesus with my People friends. Most of the time what I believe in is just between God and me.



That's how I feel at this point in time.

Willow_starr
December 28th, 2004, 12:04 PM
No, it's a contradiction of terms

(To be clear I am differentiating between Wicca as a religion and witchcraft as a practice as well as Christianity as a religion and those who find inspiration in the teachings of Jesus)

Wicca and Christianity are two different religions with two different views of the Divine and I don't think one can be intellectually honest and claim to believe both.

Though people are free to define themselves however they please and pratice however they wish. The more people have challenges my beliefs (I have a lot of Christian and non-religious friends and religious debates are a favourite pasttime of ours) the stronger and more intellectually sound they become.

IvyWitch
December 28th, 2004, 12:33 PM
You know, I'm noticing that it's a common misunderstanding that Christainity is rigid and must be followed one particular way.

Just because the church says it or some pamplet waving fundie yells it doesn't mean it's the only way to do it. There's more than one way to be a Christian, and while Christianity and Wicca may seem fundamentally different, depending on how you view things it is possible to reconcile them.

Christians may tell you you're not a "real Christian(tm)", but really it doesn't have to be between anyone but you and God, and poo on any one else.

Myzttycal
December 29th, 2004, 10:34 AM
I can say I truly do not understand the Christian Wiccan thing. When I was a member of a church and following their beliefs it was Wiccans,Witches,Pagans are all bad and evil. So, I do not understand how the two go together, BUT I am not one to judge anyone or put someone down for their belief system. I think as long as you are not harming anyone then do as you will.
I just don't understand the religon or how the two intertwine, but we as Wiccans have been persecuted enough by others so who am I to judge??
Bright Blessings,
Myzty

DarkHeart13
December 30th, 2004, 12:04 AM
I can say I truly do not understand the Christian Wiccan thing. When I was a member of a church and following their beliefs it was Wiccans,Witches,Pagans are all bad and evil. So, I do not understand how the two go together, BUT I am not one to judge anyone or put someone down for their belief system. I think as long as you are not harming anyone then do as you will.
I just don't understand the religon or how the two intertwine, but we as Wiccans have been persecuted enough by others so who am I to judge??
Bright Blessings,
Myzty
Yeah, when I went to church, when I was about 8 years old, my Sunday School teacher discussed Witches. She said they held Sabbaths and sacrificed their babies by burning them. I was really scared when she said that but that just made me really interested in Witchcraft and to why someone would do such a thing. Eventually I found out the truth, that she was just ignorant of the facts and if she had to lie to convert more Christians then so be it.
I believe in Jesus Christ and the Christian God but I don't see him as a fearful God. If I have to fear someone then they aren't worth my time. You fear people like rapists, murderers, not Gods. Because of the many hypocritical Christians in the world today I claim myself an Eclectic Wiccan. I choose to follow my path how I see fit. The Wiccan laws and ethics suite me much better than Christianity's because there aren't many translations, many misinterpretations, it's simple. Christianity to me has way too many things wrong with the religion. But the belief in Jesus Christ can still be sacred. HE did not ruin Christianity. False preachers and the mainstream public has ruined it....
Anyway, that's how I feel...maybe it will help you a bit...

Athene
December 31st, 2004, 05:47 AM
Blessings Myzty,


When I was a member of a church and following their beliefs it was Wiccans,Witches,Pagans are all bad and evil.

The crucial part where your misunderstanding lies is in, 'member of A church'. One church out of thousands is not representative of all of Christianity. One Christian, or even thousands of Christians, do not represent all Christians.

I'm not Wiccan, but I am a Christian witch. I can't really argue for Wiccans but I can help in dissipating basic misconceptions about Christianity.

Hope that helps too.

be blessed

Sage Rainsong
January 6th, 2005, 12:04 PM
I understand Christian witchcraft very well... I grew up catholic where there is much folk magic. For example if you want to sell your house you bury a staue of st. joseph in your yard. Or lighting candles at a statue of St. Jude for impossible cases. Christian wicca can be harder. I think that the biggest problem is the opposing view of the afterlife. However, if it makes sence to the individual it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. Someone can bitch about it till they are blue in the face but it isn't going to stop the label usage. Also I think that people need to realize that what a religion offically teaches and what is practiced by the people can be two very different things. Catholics don't believe that they should practice magic. Although many certainly do but they just don't call it that. I guess in a nutshell I believe that if it works for someone else I have no right to place judgement on it.

Morning Star
January 21st, 2005, 12:01 AM
When I was a member of a church and following their beliefs it was Wiccans,Witches,Pagans are all bad and evil. So, I do not understand how the two go together

Nearly all Christians are anti-pagan and believe that witches/wiccans are evil. That's just fact. Do the two go together? No. However, one thing you will learn is that to most pagans, or even most people in general, words don't have meanings. People use words all the time in ways that have nothing to do with their literal meaning. Most people don't know the literal meaning of any of the words they speak. This is mainly the result of poor education. Such is life. Christian Witches are harmless and loveable and aren't to be worried about. :) Live and let die. I mean live, die, it doesn't matter. It's all lila.

Athene
January 21st, 2005, 06:02 AM
Christian Witches are harmless and loveable and aren't to be worried about.

:rotfl:

Morning star, you are a cheeky one, you are. ;)


Seriously though, that's like saying all Christians are harmless and lovable! eek! erm, no!
What a different world we might live in if that were so. :crystalba

There is no evidence that the two don't go together, it's all subjective. Some Pagans are just as dogmatic as some Christians, we (both Christians and Pagans) must learn to distinguish reality from personal absolutism.

:fpeace:

Athene
February 4th, 2005, 01:12 PM
Sorry Mods, unsure where this should go...

Christian witches, Christo-Wiccans, Christo-Pagans, and so on, you may like to join us at a Christian - Pagan community: Christian Witch Gathering

http://azure.bbboy.net/christianwitch


Thanks MW mods.

blessings.

charmedkisses1
February 4th, 2005, 01:23 PM
:rotfl:

Morning star, you are a cheeky one, you are. ;)


Seriously though, that's like saying all Christians are harmless and lovable! eek! erm, no!
What a different world we might live in if that were so. :crystalba

There is no evidence that the two don't go together, it's all subjective. Some Pagans are just as dogmatic as some Christians, we (both Christians and Pagans) must learn to distinguish reality from personal absolutism.

:fpeace:

good reply..
however I think the idea of being pagan (wiccan) and Christian is unfounded. Just because you are influenced by Christ, does not make you Christian by definition.

Athene
February 4th, 2005, 04:31 PM
Just because you are influenced by Christ, does not make you Christian by definition.

I would agree with the basics of that point. I think that many have taken the term 'Christo-' to show that there style of paganism is influenced by Christ while not being exactly Christian.

Some of the problem lies not in theology or spirituality, but religion. So many Pagans are religious, even the ones that declare their intolerance for the stuff.
If you insist that people are this or that, that certain labels or theologies cannot/ do not work together, you're being religious. It's you're right of course.

But this is why the two camps don't understand each other. The rest of us are debating from a spiritual POV; you just can't box-in spirituality.

For a spiritual person, labels are just something you wear like clothes, they're not permanent and they certainly don't define you. A religious person insists that if you call yourself a businesman you shouldn't be seen in anything other than a suit, because that's their view of businessmen and 'appropriateness'.
The rest of us are saying, wear what you like, it's what you do, believe and are, that matters. Our only request is logic; if you're going to be illogical (wearing a swimsuit to a board meeting) then you're confused and confusing the rest of us.

:)

Athene
February 4th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Just because you are influenced by Christ, does not make you Christian by definition.

I would agree with the basics of that point. I think that many have taken the term 'Christo-' to show that there style of paganism is influenced by Christ while not being exactly Christian.

Some of the problem lies not in theology or spirituality, but religion. So many Pagans are religious, even the ones that declare their intolerance for the stuff.
If you insist that people are this or that, that certain labels or theologies cannot/ do not work together, your being religious. It's you're right of course.

But this is why the two camps don't understand each other. The rest of us are debating from a spiritual POV; you just can't box-in spirituality.

For a spiritual person, labels are just something you wear like clothes, they're not permanent and they certainly don't define you. A religious person insists that if you call yourself a businesman you shouldn't be seen in anything other than a suit, because that's their view of businessmen and 'appropriateness'.
The rest of us are saying, wear what you like, it's what you do, believe and are, that matters. Our only request is logic; if you're going to be illogical (wearing a swimsuit to a board meeting) then you're confused and confusing the rest of us.

:)

Dead Dogs
February 10th, 2005, 12:58 PM
Isn't this fundamentally a language problem? There are pagan traditions that have spawned from every religion, why should Christianity be any different? We just don't say, Jewish Pagan or Muslim Pagan or Hindu Pagan... there are reconstructionists and so forth, but really, everyone is either a pagan or they are a believer in the one true God of Abraham. It's a language thing I think.

Lupercus
February 10th, 2005, 12:58 PM
:noway: In my opinion, one precludes the other. So i cannot say i support them.

Dead Dogs
February 10th, 2005, 01:04 PM
:noway: In my opinion, one precludes the other. So i cannot say i support them.

But individuals pagan traditions can be derived from Christianity, especially considering how many practices within the Christian church were originally pagan in the first place.

Syrena
March 2nd, 2005, 10:59 PM
Wow, what an interesting thread....but I have to admit I couldn't read all of the 18 pages. I read lots of them, though.

I consider myself a New Age/Christian/Witch. I found Unity Church, which is more like a New Age Christian Movement, shortly after I left the Catholic Church.

Unity perceives God as "Mother and Father".

Unity perceives Jesus was a man who was not more holy than anyone else, but as a realized being whose potential is something we can all reach.

Christ was not Jesus's last name, but a title that means "Jesus, Realized Being".

Buddhism, Native American Spirituality, Shamanism and other Paths are also discussed in many of the Unity Churches. Reiki and other modalities of healing arts are practiced within the groups.

Unity Churches usually have lots of members who are Pagan, Jewish, Christian, and many other denominations.....Unity is non-dogmatic, and welcomes all views.

In discussions of the Bible, Unity gets very deep, looking at the teachings from a metaphysical perspective rather than literal....which is VERY interesting! I had not been a fan of the Bible til I learned to see it from a Mystics perspective.

Meditation is usually a big part of the services at Unity Churches. Along with positive affirmations and "treatments".......which are very much like spells.

I also took over six years to study "A Course In Miracles", which is not a Unity book, but is studied by many of the members of Unity. VERY metaphysical Christian, and makes much more sense to me than the Bible ever had.

It seems that many people here, in this thread, refer to Christianity as a religion. It isn't. Christianity is a movement, and has hundreds if not thousands of religions that branched off the Jesus teachings. It wasn't Jesus who bashed women or even witchcraft. In fact I think Jesus was very much a Shaman. It was people who perverted what Jesus tried to teach. He was opposed to the organized religions of the time, and that made him seem so dangerous to the established religious leaders and governments. That is why he was crucified. Personally, I don't buy into Jesus's death as being "for our sins" :goodgrief Any truly realized being doesn't see the giving up of the body as a "sacrifice". LOL! He didn't sacrifice anything! He was an awesome Teacher though, as he really made the point that God(Mother/Father) is more powerful than death.

Anyway, I truly cherish my Path as a Neo-Christo-Witch. I feel it brings alot of balance to my life.

Blessed Be!
Syrena

BeachWitch
March 2nd, 2005, 11:11 PM
In my experience, most truly Christian Witches have spent some significant time with A Course in Miracles.

I love Marianne Williamson, she has some really insightful work.

Believe it or not, a lot of A Course in Miracles, and the off spring authors, rely heavily on Sacred Marriage imagery in their work.

It all leads to Becoming in the end.

Syrena
March 2nd, 2005, 11:22 PM
It all leads to Becoming in the end.

Well said! :ringaroun

I also really like Marianne Williamson.

I found a really interesting link for Unity sound files of Sunday "lessons". Check out the one that is titled, God as Mother

http://websyte.com/unity/talks/alltalks.html

This is the main page for this site, and has some other interesting goodies: http://websyte.com/unity/

For Course In Miracles info, try: http://www.ACIM.org

Blessed Be!
Syrena

Modesty
March 3rd, 2005, 11:07 PM
In my opinion, one cannot rightly be a christian witch. A person can claim to be, but there is just too much conflict for it to really work. Christianity is opposed to witchcraft and all that it stands for. Witches fear not Christianity, but the people behind it. I have always found it quite interesting how some people say they can do ritual for the God and Goddess and yet turn around and pray to the Christian God. Sorry, I do not support this contradiction. I accept people for who they are and what they believe, and if they want to believe that they are a Christian witch, then so be it, but I do not agree with it. BB, Mod

lia_amberwolf
March 3rd, 2005, 11:14 PM
the Definition of witch is "one who performs magick, in any form"... so there IS such thing as Christian Witchcraft. I, personally know of many spells that incorperate the rosary. Miracles would also fall under this catagory. In Santaria, the saints are the representations of Gods and Goddesses. I mean, when you look at it, Christ was a Wizard. Turning water into wine (physical tranfiguration)? Walking on water (manipulation of the elements)? Healing the sick (Raiki)? He was a High Magician.

Christian Wicca on the other hand... the two words contradict themselves on too many planes. It may be "possible" (i mean, there's a "Harry Potter Wicca" for Anu's sake!). But i don't see the two coexisting in the same belief structure.

IvyWitch
March 14th, 2005, 05:20 PM
A person can claim to be, but there is just too much conflict for it to really work. Christianity is opposed to witchcraft and all that it stands for. It depends on who you ask. There is plenty of history, logic and interpretation that says that they're NOT opposed. It depends on how much research you do, and how you see things. The legalistic and literal approach to the Bible is not the only acceptable one, and just because a majority of Christians believe it's true doesnt mean the Bible supports it. The majority of Christians also believe that satan is some guy with red skin a beard and horns, when there is little if any physical description of him at all.


Witches fear not Christianity, but the people behind it. Wait....witches are supposed to fear Christians? This is a new one on me.

Also, there is a large difference between Christian Wicca and Christian witchcraft. Christian witchcraft does not involve the Goddess and God as Wicca does. I don't mnd if you disagree with something, but don't confuse the two, because they're not the same.

theblackrose
March 14th, 2005, 05:38 PM
to me christian wiccan is like saying jewish buddah, cant see them merging, like popcorn and gravy, both fine on their own, together not something i can comprehend!

BeachWitch
March 15th, 2005, 01:30 AM
I can't believe what I'm reading. Just to be clear, I'm picking on all of you, not just a few. I can't tell if you all are joking around or if you truly are Novices.


In my opinion, one cannot rightly be a christian witch. A person can claim to be, but there is just too much conflict for it to really work.
Can you demonstrate? In what context are you using "conflict"? Social? cultural? Philosophical? Theological?

Christianity is opposed to witchcraft and all that it stands for. Witches fear not Christianity, but the people behind it.
Really? are you absolutely sure about that statement? Because according to my bible, God specifies 12 herbs that are directly related to the 12 Tribes of Israel. When blended together they form the basis of all healing medicines.... the perfect Tylenol for the Ancient World. If God hates Witchcraft, why give man the herbs along with the knowledge to blend them?

I have always found it quite interesting how some people say they can do ritual for the God and Goddess and yet turn around and pray to the Christian God. Sorry, I do not support this contradiction. I accept people for who they are and what they believe, and if they want to believe that they are a Christian witch, then so be it, but I do not agree with it. BB, Mod
Um, oh my where to start....... So is it the God & Goddess who aren't really elevated to the level of importance of the christian God? Or is the Christian God some wannabe God that should be ignored? I have to tell you, no matter how I read this statement, I'm walking away thinking you are either an elitist or a bigot..... not sure which one applies, maybe both.

I believe this opinion is just another knee jerk reaction of rejecting all things labeled "christian".


the Definition of witch is "one who performs magick, in any form"... so there IS such thing as Christian Witchcraft. I, personally know of many spells that incorperate the rosary. Miracles would also fall under this catagory. In Santaria, the saints are the representations of Gods and Goddesses. I mean, when you look at it, Christ was a Wizard. Turning water into wine (physical tranfiguration)? Walking on water (manipulation of the elements)? Healing the sick (Raiki)? He was a High Magician.
This is such an excellent analogy. thank you for posting, it really gives the discussion some texture. I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly.

In fact, using Tarot as the example, Christ as Magician or High Priest works very well.


Christian Wicca on the other hand... the two words contradict themselves on too many planes. It may be "possible" (i mean, there's a "Harry Potter Wicca" for Anu's sake!). But i don't see the two coexisting in the same belief structure.
Wicca is the practice of Witchcraft with a conscious rejection of "dark" intentions, ie the rejection of sin. Wicca is also the practice of Witchcraft with a focus on Divinity, specifically the God and the Goddess. Christianity is not a monotheistic faith, Father Son Holy Spirit is more than enough to prove the Pantheon.


...... just because a majority of Christians believe it's true doesnt mean the Bible supports it. The majority of Christians also believe that satan is some guy with red skin a beard and horns, when there is little if any physical description of him at all.
Exactly. this is why the majority of Christians and Catholics believe Mary Magdalene to be a Prostitute(Immoral Woman). There is absolutely no scriptual evidence to support the claim.


Also, there is a large difference between Christian Wicca and Christian witchcraft. Christian witchcraft does not involve the Goddess and God as Wicca does. I don't mnd if you disagree with something, but don't confuse the two, because they're not the same.
Are you using christian as an Adjective or as a Pronoun? The terms change meaning.


to me christian wiccan is like saying jewish buddah, cant see them merging, like popcorn and gray, both fine on their own, together not something i can comprehend!

Christian wiccan
Christian Wicca
Christian Witch
Christian Witchcraft

A Christian Wiccan is a PERSON. This would be the INDIVIDUAL. A real living breathing human being, with emotions and feelings and consciousness.

Christian Wicca is a system of belief. A Jew practices Judiasm, a Buddhist practices Buddhism, a Wiccan practices Wicca and a Christian practices Christianity. In this case, christian refers to the Pantheon used - ie Celtic Wicca, Hellenic Wicca, Roman Wicca, etc.

Christian Witch is another PERSON. an INDIVIDUAL who practices Witchcraft and goes to church each Sunday, receives communion, believes in the 4 Gospels, maybe some of Acts and a sprinkleing of everything between Romans and Revelations. Sometimes Santeria is mixed in the cauldron, especially among catholics.

Christian witchcraft, pretty much the same as Christian witch, but we are talking about a belief in general, not a person with feelings and emotions.

So when you say Christian Wiccan is not valid, whom exactly are you refering to? there are alot of us on MW, there are alot of us who have studied for years, and technically are probably closer to Gnostic than Christian, but we are all Esoteric. And Wicca/Witchcraft are nothing if they aren't Esoteric.

Or are you all arguing from the POV that Wicca is not an Esoteric Tradition? Maybe your position is that Christianity is not Esoteric? I'm not sure.

Am I defensive? you betchya. This thread has people continually stating their opinions that my path is invalid in some way shape or form. So my response is, Prove it or STFU. So far, I'm not being convinced of very much, and the arguments against my path are feeble, at the very best, and pretty immature over all. Interestingly enough, I'm the only CW still beating this dead horse, so what does that tell you?

CleftOfLight
March 15th, 2005, 07:29 AM
I am interested in christain Wicca(in the same way I am itereted in Manism,zoroastrianism,etc.etc.) and even posted somethings on it,but I am not either a christain or a wicca.But I say if it helps people to grow then let them grow.I can't see the harm.But Maybe it should be Christain Witch or Christain Mysticism,instead of Christain Wicca.

IvyWitch
March 15th, 2005, 09:27 AM
Are you using christian as an Adjective or as a Pronoun? The terms change meaning.
Errr...I guess I'm using it as an adjective, but I suppose it could be either....I'm not really sure what the difference is..

theblackrose
March 15th, 2005, 02:43 PM
wow now beachwitch...isnt this a poll asking our opinions? or do you just want us to say what 'should' be said in a very pc manner? i just gave my opinion, and said i cant comprehend it, that doesnt automatically mean i dont agree with it, just im admitting its hard for me to understand...whats wrong with that?

IvyWitch
March 15th, 2005, 08:30 PM
There is a big difference between saying that you don't understand how something works, and saying that it doesn't work. However, most people who have a negative opinion on the blending of Christian and Pagan paths have done superficial research, if any at all into it, which is why most people who already walk the path get so pissed when people say "Oh, well that doesn't work, it's just silly to think it does".

Ninjakitten
March 15th, 2005, 11:40 PM
There is a big difference between saying that you don't understand how something works, and saying that it doesn't work. However, most people who have a negative opinion on the blending of Christian and Pagan paths have done superficial research, if any at all into it, which is why most people who already walk the path get so pissed when people say "Oh, well that doesn't work, it's just silly to think it does".


Kind of like the same idea of witches and Wiccans getting pissed at us for daring to use "their" term because they only have superficial knowledge of what it is to be Christian and want to have nothing to do with Christian anything usually because of some bad experience with a Christian or one church, or some high school teaching that Christianity, not politics, caused the Crusades, Inquisitions (yes, there was more than one), the war on Iraq, and President Bush. Wow! Was that really just one sentence? How many English teachers here want to slap me on the hand with a ruler?

BeachWitch
March 16th, 2005, 03:48 AM
IvyWitch, NinjaKitten Thank you very much for your insights. This path does take a very long time to develop and understand. I was raised with a Catholic Goddess in my home and the Patriarchal Catholic Church at school. It wasn't until I was well into my 30's that I was able to find the "tools" necessary to blend my Catholic Goddess into the Wiccan practices I became comfortable with.

Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you are correct. Furthermore, if it was just an opinion, you would have no need to personalize your statements.

BeachWitch
March 16th, 2005, 07:19 PM
Chew on this:

The catholic Church embraced a single goddess in it's early days: Isis, Goddess of 10,000 Names. The Mother of Jesus was the Mother of Horus. Before American Christianity, before Luther lead the revolution against Rome, before Constantine, there was Isis.

Just because the common practice of modern man is to strip the Feminine Divine from christianity, and just because modern man does not believe in a physical relationship with the devine, does not mean it is not a valid belief or an impossible belief.

man has interpretted the bible to read literally where he finds benefit and metiphorically in other areas where he will gain maximum benefit. by no means can this biased view of the devine be the right way. it serves a purposes, but it certainly does not serve the God or the Goddess.

there are Christian Wiccans - a lot of us. Since moving to Long Beach 6 months ago, I have found 3, making the grand total of Circle attendees who practice wicca and gnostism/catholocism/christianity 4, out of 20, and that was in a single ritual. I'm not even counting the number of Catholics, Masons and Lutherans I have encountered in the area who are finding creative ways to serve both Devine Parents, God the Father and Goddess our Mother. Five years ago 1/5 of the circle having any positive relationship with Christinaity was unheard of.

We exist, in real life whether you Pagans and Traditionalists like it or not. We only come out when we have allies, and so we appear suddenly and en masse.

We are hermits, we are seekers, we are, at heart, Gnostics & Essenes & Taoists hiding out in the last safe haven left to us: Wicca. This is the only place our Yin and our Yang, our Male and our Female, our Bride and our Bridegroom, our God and our Goddess are safe to worship.

I know, I know, this is a little like asking if you believe in Faeries and one of them shouting out "Excuse me, we've been living under the same roof for the past 10 years!" Kind of shocking :hairraise

Athene
March 20th, 2005, 04:47 PM
the Definition of witch is "one who performs magick, in any form"...

Hi there,

Off topic...

That may be your definition, but it isn't the definition of traditional witches. Just want that clear for others. :)


On topic...

The interesting thing to those confused about the 'conflict' of the paths, is that for so many of us Christian witches, it isn't and has never been complex. The concept is that we have had to work out a merging or find a way to blend the paths, when in fact many of us have done it without much thought. Christian witches have been around for a long time, including priests and nuns, and not all of us have struggled. Usually the struggle or conflict has been in the danger of being open amongst fundamentalist Christians.

I do appreciate that if you're 1st generation Wiccan you have a few things to work out though.

What I have found interesting in Pagan communities, is just how ignorant we are about Christianity. Despite the many variations, the general public only seem to know one - fundamentalist. And have one prefered reaction - been there, done that, go away.

If you notice, it's rare to find somebody give an exact reason why they do not understand the paths. The rare occassion that scripture is used, it's usually the widely known 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live', which has been debunked countless times. It's almost always somebody using one verse outside of context and most importantly outside of knowledge of scripture or ancient Hebrew culture.

Yet the ideal of researching paths is widely accepted as the Pagan way. If there is one place that Christianity should be embraced, as much as any other path is embraced, is the Pagan community. Only those choosing ignorance over education would do otherwise.
(I'm not being rude, Im using 'ignorance' in it's meaning - lack of knowledge).

peace

Pandoras
March 22nd, 2005, 01:22 AM
If you notice, it's rare to find somebody give an exact reason why they do not understand the paths. The rare occassion that scripture is used, it's usually the widely known 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live', which has been debunked countless times. It's almost always somebody using one verse outside of context and most importantly outside of knowledge of scripture or ancient Hebrew culture.

I disagree. There are many excellent, well-thought out posts regarding the perceived conflicts between the two paths. However, I've found that most of these are conveniently ignored.


Yet the ideal of researching paths is widely accepted as the Pagan way. If there is one place that Christianity should be embraced, as much as any other path is embraced, is the Pagan community. Only those choosing ignorance over education would do otherwise.
(I'm not being rude, Im using 'ignorance' in it's meaning - lack of knowledge).

I think it's arrogant to conclude that just because a person rejects Christianity (or the mixing of Paganism and Christianity) that he/she is ignorant and hasn't done any research. It is possible that a person may have done a tremendous amount of research and be learned and still be of the opinion that the two paths conflict.

I was raised Catholic and rejected it very young. I didn't learn to embrace Christianity until college when my interest in the history of it was peaked. I was fascinated, fell in love with the subject, ended up with a minor in it. I'm no scholar, but I'm not some uneducated, ignorant shmuck. I understand it quite a bit and I still reject it.

BeachWitch
March 22nd, 2005, 02:00 AM
I have to wonder though.....

Do you reject Islam or Judaism just as vehemently as you do Christian Wicca?

I think the buzz words here are reject and invalid. So far, this is the only path that MW Members feel no compuntion to reign in their bias and pre-judgements. You just don't see the outcry against Hinduism or Buddhism.

I think the outcry is a veil for the ignorance. sure there are a few of you who are knowledgable, but you just feed the flame of ignorance with your trigger words and hostile language. The words reject and invalid are inherently hostile, and there is no way to argue that saying a Path is rejected or that it is invalid is in any way amiable or accepting.

While you all certainly have a right to your opinion, please don't forget that early Gnostics were persecuted as Heretics. In fact, it is with much glee that new Pagans like to refer to the Burning times. In fact, it was the earliest version of the "Christian Witch" that was persecuted.... christians who held onto the Shekinah, the Feminine Devine, and who refuted the findings at the Council of Nicea.

I mean come on, you reject the path, yet lay claim to the history.... wtf?

The history of christianity is NOT Monotheistic.
The history of christianity DOES NOT reject the Goddess.
The history of christianity includes the Old testament which includes the knowledge of herb crafting.
All of the elements of Wicca are found between the OT and the NT.

Every year Pagans celebrate the Savior King, the return of the God..... in the various threads on Christian Wicca, not one person has commented on the similarities between Christianity and Wicca.

So which is it? Ignorance of Wicca or ignorance of Christianity. because I have to tell you, there isn't a whole lot of "scholarly" information other than what is coming from Athene and myself.

Hostile vocabulary is usually accompanied by ignorance.

Pandoras
March 22nd, 2005, 10:32 PM
I'm not going to delve into this. I was expressing a sentiment, not volunteering for "debate".

Like I said before, it is possible that a person may have done a tremendous amount of research and be learned and still be of the opinion that the two paths conflict. I can't do anything about the fact that you just ignore the more challenging posts, take them out of context, or resort to insults to hide the fact that you just don't have an answer.

I'll leave now and let you have your thread back because debate is really quite impossible. You'll come back and call me (and anyone else that disagrees with you) ignorant. It's your usual fallback. That and playing the victim.

BeachWitch
March 22nd, 2005, 11:07 PM
As I previously stated:


Hostile vocabulary is usually accompanied by ignorance.

Elderbush
March 23rd, 2005, 12:21 AM
I have to wonder though.....

Do you reject Islam or Judaism just as vehemently as you do Christian Wicca?


This is part of the problem, as I see it. What does it matter when the subject is Christian Wicca? Do you see that? It is off subject.

BeachWitch, no one is saying that your path is not the right one for you and no one disputes that you sincerely find logic in it. Others, however, have the same rights you do to interpret those two religions in a way that is logical to them, whether you like their conclusion or not. Name calling doesn't look any better on Christian Wiccans than it does on members of other religions.

BeachWitch
March 23rd, 2005, 01:19 AM
Please, by all means, point me to the more challenging threads that intelligently discuss the conflicts within blending the two faiths.

On the same token, none of my points have ever been addressed, never been answered. Instead I get the same stock answer over and over.... it's my opinion. Well, for nearly 100 years, society was of the opinion that Black People had the brains of Apes and were no better than livestock. Does that make the practice any less offensive?
I think Islam and the Muslim faith is Invalid and I Reject it completely. According to this and every other thread on Christian Wicca, I do not need to defend my opinion, I am entitled to it. But does my entitlement make my opinion any less offensive?

I like MW, but the bottom line is, at it's core MW is a very very prejudiced and biased group of people.

I think I will just remain on the other side for a while.

Elderbush
March 23rd, 2005, 10:27 AM
Well, for nearly 100 years, society was of the opinion that Black People had the brains of Apes and were no better than livestock. Does that make the practice any less offensive?


Here you go again. What does that have to do with the subject of Christian Wicca? There are ethically bad and good opinions, ill informed opinions based upon bad information, and opinions based upon both good or bad experiences. I don't believe that anyone is disputing it. (In this case, by the way, you are taking the opinions of some people and saying that the everyone in "society" believed that. This is a generalization that an exception will disprove.)

What does your opinion of Islam have to do with Christian Wicca?

I repeat, no one here is saying that you do not wholeheartedly believe in your path. They are not saying that you must abandon it because it is bad or wrong or invalid. They are not attacking it. They simply do not interpret either Wicca or Christianity in the same way that you do and therefore question how they can be combined.

Calling everyone who posts at MW biased and prejudiced is a generalization that is easily disproved, but who said opinions have to be based upon fact?

BeachWitch
March 23rd, 2005, 11:26 AM
I'm still waiting for a link to those "well thought out and challenging posts".


but who said opinions have to be based upon fact?
I deeply apologise for applying the same standards to this thread that are applied to the rest of Mystic Wicks, a learning environment where "ethically bad and good opinions, ill informed opinions based upon bad information, and opinions based upon both good or bad experiences" are worked out and disspelled.

After 21 pages of the same "ethically bad and good opinions, ill informed opinions based upon bad information, and opinions based upon both good or bad experiences" are repeated over and over again. Take the time and read the two major threads in this forum on Christian Wicca.

Athene
March 25th, 2005, 05:05 AM
I disagree. There are many excellent, well-thought out posts regarding the perceived conflicts between the two paths. However, I've found that most of these are conveniently ignored.

Personally, I have always answered well thought out posts or questions from those truly seeking understanding. And I suppose we must disagree; I see many more badly thought out or not thought out at all posts.




I think it's arrogant to conclude that just because a person rejects Christianity (or the mixing of Paganism and Christianity) that he/she is ignorant and hasn't done any research. It is possible that a person may have done a tremendous amount of research and be learned and still be of the opinion that the two paths conflict.

I agree with you that would be an arrogant attitide. If you read what I wrote carefully, I never said that somebody rejecting the paths is ignorant.

Embracing does not mean you must be a Christian or decide you are in agreement with it. But say you are Buddhist and you will be welcomed without question, mention Christianity and there is prejudice. This is what I speak of; the underlying Pagan premis of accepting all faiths and yet usually showing ignorance and prejudice to a few.

If you reject it for yourself, fine, if you have well thought out posts and personal experience, fine. I am speaking about those that do not. Does that clarify my position?

peace

CleftOfLight
March 25th, 2005, 07:32 AM
I have to wonder though.....

Do you reject Islam or Judaism just as vehemently as you do Christian Wicca?

I think the buzz words here are reject and invalid. So far, this is the only path that MW Members feel no compuntion to reign in their bias and pre-judgements. You just don't see the outcry against Hinduism or Buddhism.

I think the outcry is a veil for the ignorance. sure there are a few of you who are knowledgable, but you just feed the flame of ignorance with your trigger words and hostile language. The words reject and invalid are inherently hostile, and there is no way to argue that saying a Path is rejected or that it is invalid is in any way amiable or accepting.

While you all certainly have a right to your opinion, please don't forget that early Gnostics were persecuted as Heretics. In fact, it is with much glee that new Pagans like to refer to the Burning times. In fact, it was the earliest version of the "Christian Witch" that was persecuted.... christians who held onto the Shekinah, the Feminine Devine, and who refuted the findings at the Council of Nicea.

I mean come on, you reject the path, yet lay claim to the history.... wtf?

The history of christianity is NOT Monotheistic.
The history of christianity DOES NOT reject the Goddess.
The history of christianity includes the Old testament which includes the knowledge of herb crafting.
All of the elements of Wicca are found between the OT and the NT.

Every year Pagans celebrate the Savior King, the return of the God..... in the various threads on Christian Wicca, not one person has commented on the similarities between Christianity and Wicca.

So which is it? Ignorance of Wicca or ignorance of Christianity. because I have to tell you, there isn't a whole lot of "scholarly" information other than what is coming from Athene and myself.

Hostile vocabulary is usually accompanied by ignorance.
I reject Judiaism,infact I reject the Old Testament all together.Kaballah,Talmud,etc.etc. I reject it all. Though Jesus was a jew I believe that when he came he made judaism obsolete and his way is the new Judiaism.That those following the old ways of Jewish law are invalid.just like the old Testament.

BeachWitch
March 25th, 2005, 07:44 AM
I reject Judiaism,infact I reject the Old Testament all together.Kaballah,Talmud,etc.etc. I reject it all. Though Jesus was a jew I believe that when he came he made judaism obsolete and his way is the new Judiaism.That those following the old ways of Jewish law are invalid.just like the old Testament.

Even though I agree with you in theory, I have to object to the words "reject" and "invalid". Again, this is using hostile language, regardless of the fact that Christ set aside the majority of Jewish Law, which is really the core of the Old Testament.

Even though I personally feel that Post-Luther Christinaity is "invalid" I never use that term, because for millions of people, Pauline Scripture IS Christianity, despite the fact that Pauline Scripture twists and mangles everthing Christ taught.

The bottomline here is that every cultural Pantheon is used in some form or fashion within Wicca, why is the Christian Pantheon prohibited from being used? All of the elements of a Pantheon are present within Christian Mysticism, so why not translate that into Wiccan Ritual? It is the Christians who object vehemently to this practice, and it is surprising to find Pagans on the same side of the argument.

CleftOfLight
March 25th, 2005, 07:52 AM
Chew on this:

The catholic Church embraced a single goddess in it's early days: Isis, Goddess of 10,000 Names. The Mother of Jesus was the Mother of Horus. Before American Christianity, before Luther lead the revolution against Rome, before Constantine, there was Isis.

Just because the common practice of modern man is to strip the Feminine Divine from christianity, and just because modern man does not believe in a physical relationship with the devine, does not mean it is not a valid belief or an impossible belief.

man has interpretted the bible to read literally where he finds benefit and metiphorically in other areas where he will gain maximum benefit. by no means can this biased view of the devine be the right way. it serves a purposes, but it certainly does not serve the God or the Goddess.

there are Christian Wiccans - a lot of us. Since moving to Long Beach 6 months ago, I have found 3, making the grand total of Circle attendees who practice wicca and gnostism/catholocism/christianity 4, out of 20, and that was in a single ritual. I'm not even counting the number of Catholics, Masons and Lutherans I have encountered in the area who are finding creative ways to serve both Devine Parents, God the Father and Goddess our Mother. Five years ago 1/5 of the circle having any positive relationship with Christinaity was unheard of.

We exist, in real life whether you Pagans and Traditionalists like it or not. We only come out when we have allies, and so we appear suddenly and en masse.

We are hermits, we are seekers, we are, at heart, Gnostics & Essenes & Taoists hiding out in the last safe haven left to us: Wicca. This is the only place our Yin and our Yang, our Male and our Female, our Bride and our Bridegroom, our God and our Goddess are safe to worship.

I know, I know, this is a little like asking if you believe in Faeries and one of them shouting out "Excuse me, we've been living under the same roof for the past 10 years!" Kind of shocking :hairraise
I agree,
And I do believe in Faeries.

CleftOfLight
March 25th, 2005, 08:06 AM
Does anyone know what Gerald Gardner thought about Jesus? I think this answer would truly say if Christainity should blend with Wicca.
But I would agree with Aine that the term Christain witch,or Christain mystic,might be easier for people to accept.Or Mystical Nazareans? At least I don't think there will be or would be such hostility.

BeachWitch
March 26th, 2005, 04:53 PM
This question has been asked before, and I thought someone else would post, but apparently nit.

From a cursory search on Yahoo, I found the following 2 results. there were more, but these directly quote Gardner, the rest are authors who make best guesses as to Gardner's view of the christ.

From: The Christ and the Craft (http://www.geocities.com/dreamtoucher/christ.html)

Many Wiccans seem to be under the mistaken impression that in order to be a Witch or a Pagan, they must either renounce or greatly distance themselves from the Christ. This is totally fallacious. Gerald Gardner himself, the founder of modern Wicca, declared just the opposite:
"It is usually said that to be made a witch one must abjure Christianity; this is not true; but they naturally would not receive into their ranks anyone who was a very narrow Christian. They do not think that the real Jesus was literally the Son of God, but are quite prepared to accept that he was one of the Enlightened Ones, or Holy Men. That is the reason why witches do not think they were hypocrites "in times of persecution" for going to church and honoring Christ, especially as so many of the old Sun-hero myths have been incorporated into Christianity; while others might bow to the Madonna, who is closely akin to their goddess of heaven."2

From: Laws: Gerald Gardner's Old Laws (http://portaloflight.org/id288.htm) under the heading "Skith"

Do good, an it be safe, and only if it be safe, for any talk may endanger us. And strictly keep to the Old Law, never accept money for the use of the Art, for money ever smeares the taker, Tis Carcerors and Conjurers and Priests of Christ who ever accept money for the use of their Arts.

CleftOfLight
March 27th, 2005, 07:52 AM
well thank you beach,that sheds some light on the subject.And it gives hope to blending the two because now you can say the founder of wicca would not disapprove,and so therefore the followers of wicca shouldn't have the problem either.

BeachWitch
March 27th, 2005, 12:06 PM
.........
because now you can say the founder of wicca would not disapprove,and so therefore the followers of wicca shouldn't have the problem either.
And isn't it interesting that a Christian Wiccan has to provide the information to the Wiccans in this discussion. It would appear that very few Wiccans on MW have any knowledge of Gardner's views on much of anything, other than the basic principles of Ritual set up and practice.

That is why I question where the ignorance lies in this discussion, is it ignorance of Christianity or ignorance of Wicca.

If, on the one hand, Wiccans do not believe Christinaity and Wicca can be blended, are they refuting Gardner's Laws? If so, does that then negate their use of the label Wiccan?

Since a Christian Wiccan is by no means a "very narrow Christian" I think it's a safe assumption that Christian Wiccans were most likely practicing in Gardner's very own Coven. And using Gardner's friendship with Ward, the Heretical Catholic Bishop, it's quite apparent that Gardner was a deep philosophical thinker, and the idea of blending Philosophies would probably intrigue him.

CleftOfLight
April 7th, 2005, 06:23 AM
I would say maybe it is ignorance in both.Also,I am sure other people get into wicca through none Gerald Gardner books,and teachers,and his name is now in a book.I wonder how many people even know his life story.I myself am not wiccan and that is why I asked my question.

Pure Ahimsa
August 21st, 2005, 12:30 AM
Ive changed my mind. I do support Christian Wicca as any other path, as long as it is genuine, not people who want power and such.

Nemesis Descending
August 21st, 2005, 07:24 PM
Do you support Christain-Wicca?

No offense intended, but to me it makes as much sense as Vegetarians who eat meat.

Hope3645
August 21st, 2005, 11:58 PM
"I respect and support Christian Wicca even if it's not my path"

There are many different types of Christiany, ranging all the way from Southern Baptist to the Unity Church. Some types of Christianity are compatible with Wicca, and some are not.

Sybill
August 23rd, 2005, 04:13 PM
Why cant a person believe in the Christian God and anything else they want to. Who said you can only believe in God if you believe in the bible that was written by man?
Who writes the rules, man or God. We can only take the word of man that he is guided by God. So, since man is deceitful at times, can a person believe in God without the belief in books? I say yes.

How about equal oportunity for whatever gods you want to believe in? The only limits are those placed by man. I think if God had a problem with a person, he would let that person know!!!

I personally dont feel that a person can judge what another wants to believe in when it comes to faith.

Great! I completely agree with you! _pounce_

WAHM-Brenda
August 24th, 2005, 10:05 AM
Thank you for starting this discussion as it thoroughly applys to me. I was raised a Christian but now I find truth in Wicca as well. I consider myself a Christian Wiccan. I will respond with more thoughts later but wanted to say that I've printed everything out to read.

Also... Can someone point me to the link for the Christian Wiccan class? And is there an article archive on this site? I'm still learning my way around here. Thanks!

=^..^= Brenda
yourhealthyfamily@consultant.com
A Practicing Christian Wiccan
http://www.yourhealthyfamilyhome.com
Discover a way to increase your health and/or income!
http://practicalsolution.info

IvyWitch
August 24th, 2005, 10:35 AM
http://mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111 (http://mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111)

Though I don't think the class was finished

Check out these two threads also
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=87793 (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=87793)
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=103183 (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=103183)

ShadowcatX
August 24th, 2005, 01:54 PM
well thank you beach,that sheds some light on the subject.And it gives hope to blending the two because now you can say the founder of wicca would not disapprove,and so therefore the followers of wicca shouldn't have the problem either.

Just on a side note, know that not all Wiccans follow Gardener or really care what he had to say. He might have started the movement but we're Wiccans, not Gardenians.

MorningDove030202
August 27th, 2005, 07:25 PM
IMHO: Gardner is the "Father" of Wicca, and we can't just ignore his controbution to Wicca, no matter what tradition one follows, and his opinions on topics, if they can be found factual, should be important enought to note, even if one disagrees.
Dove


Just on a side note, know that not all Wiccans follow Gardener or really care what he had to say. He might have started the movement but we're Wiccans, not Gardenians.

BeachWitch
August 28th, 2005, 05:38 PM
I have to agree with MorningDove. I would find it hard to believe that anyone practicing ritual today is not influenced by Gardner.

While I do know there are Scots and Irish who have a tradition that predates Gardner, these individuals are usually not online, do not participate in forums, and keep their practice closely guarded to only those in the immediate family.

There might be a few of these Family Trads operating in the Carolinas and maybe the extreme North East, but again, I seriously doubt they are participating in online discussions.

So anyone practicing Wicca or Witchcraft in the US today is directly influenced by Gardner and are very much affected by "what he had to say" because without him they would have no basis for ritual.

Come to think of it, unless a modern witch or wiccan came to the practice through Catholicism, one would be pretty much reliant on what Gardner had to say.

dark witch
August 30th, 2005, 05:50 AM
Personally, I feel Paganism and any Judea-Christian faith are diametric opposites. However, after years and years spent on the internet I have found that anyone can be anything they want to be, and can always find a way to rationalize it. The latter statement isn't meant to be judgemental, it just seems to be the way it is..

Dark Witch

Kaylara
August 30th, 2005, 06:54 AM
I have to agree with MorningDove. I would find it hard to believe that anyone practicing ritual today is not influenced by Gardner.

While I do know there are Scots and Irish who have a tradition that predates Gardner, these individuals are usually not online, do not participate in forums, and keep their practice closely guarded to only those in the immediate family.

There might be a few of these Family Trads operating in the Carolinas and maybe the extreme North East, but again, I seriously doubt they are participating in online discussions.

So anyone practicing Wicca or Witchcraft in the US today is directly influenced by Gardner and are very much affected by "what he had to say" because without him they would have no basis for ritual.

Come to think of it, unless a modern witch or wiccan came to the practice through Catholicism, one would be pretty much reliant on what Gardner had to say.

Actually, I know a family traditionalist from that area from MW even. ;)

I agree, there is no way you can ignore Gardner and still be calling yourself a Wiccan. And if you are, then you should really should do a bit more research and studying. Gardner was and is integral to the entire Wiccan religion and anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't really know what they're talking about.

As far as Christian Wiccan or Christian Witchcraft... I'm sure that you can be a Christian Witch, although I find that a contradiction of terms as the Christians tend to think that Witches are going to Hell to burn for eternity. As far as Christian Wiccans. No. The two are mutually exclusive Religions. Trying to meld the two always strikes me as an attempt at hanging on in case the Christians have it right. I have no problem with Christianity, but it's not Wicca, and the twain should not be meeting on some very specific levels.

I seriously suggest that anyone considering being a "Christian Wiccan" or "Wiccan Christian" go back and read some of the "older "books on Wiccan belief and practice, and consider that perhaps what they're thinking is Wicca, isn't at all. (Books like: "Witchcraft Today" and "The Meaning of Witchcraft" by Gerald Gardner, "The Witches Way" by Janet & Stewart Farrar, "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler)

And yes, it's a bit irritating when people don't respect your religion enough to figure out what exactly it is before calling themselves it. And then warping it into something else and still calling it the same as your religion. It's disrespectful to everyone who's spent a long time learning and walking this path.

MorningDove030202
August 30th, 2005, 01:34 PM
At the least, we should study Gardner and his writings to know where we Wiccans have come from, even if we in our own practice differ from his. It's about having a sence of history, and respect for our elders and Ancestors.

Dove

BeachWitch
August 30th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Actually, I know a family traditionalist from that area from MW even. ;)

I agree, there is no way you can ignore Gardner and still be calling yourself a Wiccan. And if you are, then you should really should do a bit more research and studying. Gardner was and is integral to the entire Wiccan religion and anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't really know what they're talking about.

As far as Christian Wiccan or Christian Witchcraft... I'm sure that you can be a Christian Witch, although I find that a contradiction of terms as the Christians tend to think that Witches are going to Hell to burn for eternity. As far as Christian Wiccans. No. The two are mutually exclusive Religions. Trying to meld the two always strikes me as an attempt at hanging on in case the Christians have it right. I have no problem with Christianity, but it's not Wicca, and the twain should not be meeting on some very specific levels.

I seriously suggest that anyone considering being a "Christian Wiccan" or "Wiccan Christian" go back and read some of the "older "books on Wiccan belief and practice, and consider that perhaps what they're thinking is Wicca, isn't at all. (Books like: "Witchcraft Today" and "The Meaning of Witchcraft" by Gerald Gardner, "The Witches Way" by Janet & Stewart Farrar, "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler)

While I agree with nearly everything you said, I do have to politely disagree with your definition of Christian Witch. Of course, if you are referring to Evangelism, or American Christianity, then yes, the terms are diametrically opposed and incompaible.

However, if you take into consideration the fact that the Evangelists or the American Christians are simply the "winners" and therefore the writers of history, and look beyond what the "oppressors" decided was truth, you will find much in common between Wicca, Witchcraft and Christianity. (Any rational thinker has to concede that Constantine and Alexander were oppressors, considering that without them there would be no Vatican, or Christian World domination)

Afterall, Gardner himself had some very close Christian friends, and was in fact a confident of a very highly placed Bishop within the Catholic Church.

I think we talk about this earlier in the thread or another similar Christian Witch/Wicca thread here on MW... I believe it's along the vein of "What Would Gardner Do?"

Sorry, just had to throw down the WWGD!!!! LOL!

MerlynHerne
November 4th, 2005, 06:06 AM
I consider Christ an image of the Dying/Rising Gods (in fact much of Christianity is basically a rehash of older pagan myths,starting with the Virgin Birth and ending with the resurrection) and the Gods are as you name Them. What did people call the Old Ones? Do we have their most ancient names? No. I think you can call them whatever you wish as long as you respect Them and live so as to honour Them. I started visioning Christ as a melding of the Green Man (resurrection) and Lord Herne (death and the Wild Hunt)...I am sure some Pagans/Wiccans would choke on that and I do understand...but in time it brought me to love the Green Man and Lord Herne. Many Christian Witches and (especially) Christian Wiccans, if not persecuted, will probably go on to become full Pagans.

Remember, we don't have "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me..." We have many Gods and Goddesses and they are all a part of the One (at least as I see it), and though this might sound "heretical" (I have been there many times whilst still Christian) I cannot see Them getting upset if someone chooses to work with them under the names of Jesus and Mary.

I respect Christian Witches and Christian Wiccans because I believe "an it harm none, do as ye will." These people are working with Deity as they believe Deity is...I know of no Christian Wiccans who "down" the rest of us for working with the Gods and Goddesses under whatever names we prefer to use...as long as that continues, I am willing to give them the respect and freedom to follow their hearts.

Lady Valkyrie
November 4th, 2005, 03:41 PM
I voted that I am a Christian Wiccan. If anyone wishes to understand how I blend my faith go here. http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=113321

Dave the Druid
November 4th, 2005, 04:17 PM
This has to be one of the most interesting threads I have ever seen. Really.

Possible sure, but having been psychically assaulted by numerous born again types I have trouble reconciling the two points of view. That said, I am more than a little aware of the pagan roots of xianity.

Cyzarine
November 4th, 2005, 07:09 PM
I see nothing wrong with what one believes, even ifit does not fit the majority. I am a witch who pulls from the Christian and Wiccan aspects and it shouldn't be my choice of spiritual path that people see but who I am. I know most people have a bad view of Christians...but if you can get past the Chrsitian right...then you have very open minded Chrsitains who are paganistic in their belief system.

IvyWitch
November 4th, 2005, 09:43 PM
Sinec the thread is really long, and sort of old, so I may have said this already, but for fun I'll say it anyway =)

I think a lare problem people have with accepting a combination of Christianity and any form of Paganism or witchcraft is that people are defining Christianity by the fundamentalist viewpoint - not all Christians are born again holly rollers that want to beat you sensless with a Bible. Being a "born again" or "fundamentalist" is only one type fo Christianity, and not the only valid form of it out there. Fundie Christianity and Paganism may not work together, but they don't have to. Thier interpretation of the Bible is not the only right one.
Just because they happen to be the loudest doesn't make them the most valid. *shrug*

Christo Pagan
November 4th, 2005, 11:47 PM
I invite anyone who believes that Christianity and Paganism don't agree to research more about Gnosticism and I think you'd be suprised at how focused on individual spirituality (rather than the institution) and the femine side of the divine they were. I believe that it was because of pervading Gnostic thought within the early church that many Pagan ideas were embued within Christianity.

In a lot of ways Gnosticism is almost the polar opposite of Orthodox Christianity. Whereas Christians see Christ as a saviour from ourselves, the Gnostics saw him as a liberator and one who came to reveal to us our divine nature.

In my own practice, I worship both Christ and Sophia as my God and Goddess, as they both represent Knowledge and Wisdom respectfully. Much of my own cosmology is derived from Gnosticism, as well as Wicca and Christianity.

Dave the Druid
November 5th, 2005, 08:36 AM
And Gnosticism was what? Banned by the Mother church before the notion of Protentestism was even thought of. Still they make a bit more sense than most of the rest.

I think if you were worried about what the majority thought you wouldn't be here.

TarotCanada
November 5th, 2005, 12:52 PM
Why you always gotta jump in huh Morr???

LOL But there is evidence in the gospels, as well as the pseudo-gospels, that he viewed women differently than the norm.... I'm just too brain-dead to dig up the references at the moment....
http://TarotCanada.tripod.com/WomenApostles.html

Jesus revered women and was equally revered by women because he was willing to teach them which made him revolutionary in his time. I don't believe Jesus every called the religion Christianity. He came to fulfill a prophecy and his ministry had two aspects: prophetic preaching and wisdom teaching. When people bring up him being raised a Jew, I have to wonder what point they think they are making - it is very easy to point out the obvious. There was much debate in the early church that you had to be a Jew first to be a Christian. I do not believe Jesus would recognize Christianity as it is practiced today - he gave a double commandment of love, love your neighbours as you love yourself and love your enemies. He told people that his message would divide the world, a most accurate prophecy.

Someone earlier was quoting Timothy as being against women - his mother and grandmother were Lois and Eunice who instructed him and were well versed in OT. His father was a Pagan and Timothy wasn't circumcised out of respect to his father. People should really get their information right before they start slamming any religion or spiritual practice. We could study any religion for our whole life time and never even scratch the surface.


Cheryl

Christo Pagan
November 5th, 2005, 08:15 PM
And Gnosticism was what? Banned by the Mother church before the notion of Protentestism was even thought of. Still they make a bit more sense than most of the rest.

I think if you were worried about what the majority thought you wouldn't be here.

Absolutley, the orthodox church feared the Gnostics as rivals, thus they proclaimed their theologies as being heresy and coming from Satan (which, I believe, is where the teachings that the serpent in the garden of Eden was actually the devil originated, as many gnostics believed it to be Christ). This was how all the Pagans across Europe were later treated - it's all about power.

You're right in assuming that I'm not someone who concerns himself with what the majority thinks and that wasn't really what I meant for my statement to come off like. My problem is that within the Pagan community there is this stigma about accepting any Christian idealogies into their practice, when in fact many Pagans throughout history have done just that, especially the Gnostics. I've met many who DO concern themselves with what the majority thinks, rather than listening to their own spiritual desires, and have shyed away from either continuing to worship Christ through Wicca or embracing a polytheistic notion of Christianity as a result. All I'm saying is don't believe the hype.:sunny:

Mithrea
November 5th, 2005, 09:08 PM
Absolutley, the orthodox church feared the Gnostics as rivals, thus they proclaimed their theologies as being heresy and coming from Satan (which, I believe, is where the teachings that the serpent in the garden of Eden was actually the devil originated, as many gnostics believed it to be Christ). This was how all the Pagans across Europe were later treated - it's all about power.

You're right in assuming that I'm not someone who concerns himself with what the majority thinks and that wasn't really what I meant for my statement to come off like. My problem is that within the Pagan community there is this stigma about accepting any Christian idealogies into their practice, when in fact many Pagans throughout history have done just that, especially the Gnostics. I've met many who DO concern themselves with what the majority thinks, rather than listening to their own spiritual desires, and have shyed away from either continuing to worship Christ through Wicca or embracing a polytheistic notion of Christianity as a result. All I'm saying is don't believe the hype.:sunny:

Welcome to MW ChristoPagan :) I saw when you joined the other day and wondered how long it would take you to find this forum! :) You will find there are lots of pagans here who don't have those prejudices, me being one of them. As pagan as I am, I still find great worth in many of the teachings of Jesus :)

It's good to see you here :)

Incendia
November 5th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Do you support Christain-Wicca?

IMHO- It's an oxymoron! It's like having your cake and eating it too...

Edited to add: With that said, I don't hold anything against those who practice Christian-Wicca, it's just how I feel. To each his own...

Christo Pagan
November 5th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Welcome to MW ChristoPagan :) I saw when you joined the other day and wondered how long it would take you to find this forum! :) You will find there are lots of pagans here who don't have those prejudices, me being one of them. As pagan as I am, I still find great worth in many of the teachings of Jesus :)

It's good to see you here :)

Thank you Mithrea! It's good to be here. When I saw this section I thought I had died and gone to heaven! :toofless:

As much prejudice as I've enountered within the Pagan community, it's a whole lot worse from the Christian community - especially living here in the "Bible Belt". Down here it's downright blasphemous (I think I'd get more understanding if I just said I worshipped Satan instead. LOL).

Philosophia
November 6th, 2005, 01:33 AM
I support Christian Witchcraft because they can be combined. The bible was written by humans, and not by God himself (though I suppose they could be channelling God), so taking the literally will be following man's law. Also, many people follow folk magic and Christianity at the same time. In the past, this was acceptable and acknowledged.
One of the nicest women I know is a Christian and she accepts me as a witch. She may not agree with all of my path, but at least she tries to understand it.

BlackMagicalCat
November 6th, 2005, 02:06 AM
I thought that we all made up our own truth?

What is true to me,is my truth.Thats what I have been hearing here since joining in Jan of this year.

I have also heard that there is no right or wrong.From many here.so if a person wants to call themselves something,how can it be wrong?

I have heard ther is no sin,and that no one person had the monopoly on the truth.

Everyone here chooses his or her own path,and costomizes it to thier liking.

And sometimes changes their path,or Goddess,like a person would change thier cloths.

Im not saying this is what I believe,but its what I have heard from many here.

I have also heard that thier is not a God or Goddess in a personal sense,but as an energy,in us all.


As I undersand it,Wicca is a religion,that worships the Lord and the Lady.

Christianity,believes in Jesus Christ,as the Son of God.Who died for the sins of the whole world,to deliver them from death,and hell.

We can call ourselves anything we want to,but most know the difference between the two,Wicca,and Christianity.

But what do I know.

Mithrea
November 6th, 2005, 03:37 PM
I thought that we all made up our own truth?

What is true to me,is my truth.Thats what I have been hearing here since joining in Jan of this year.

I have also heard that there is no right or wrong.From many here.so if a person wants to call themselves something,how can it be wrong?

I have heard ther is no sin,and that no one person had the monopoly on the truth.

Everyone here chooses his or her own path,and costomizes it to thier liking.

And sometimes changes their path,or Goddess,like a person would change thier cloths.

Im not saying this is what I believe,but its what I have heard from many here.

I have also heard that thier is not a God or Goddess in a personal sense,but as an energy,in us all.


As I undersand it,Wicca is a religion,that worships the Lord and the Lady.

Christianity,believes in Jesus Christ,as the Son of God.Who died for the sins of the whole world,to deliver them from death,and hell.

We can call ourselves anything we want to,but most know the difference between the two,Wicca,and Christianity.

But what do I know.

Many of the things you stated in this post reduce beliefs and religious ideology to their lowest common denominator. I would hope that you believe that Christianity is much more complex than your statement above. Wicca is the same. Taking the time to get to know each very well would help you understand the similiarities that make Christopaganism work for these people. I know you are not interested in that, but barring that, it's really hard to make that kind of judgement isn't it?

Ninjakitten
November 6th, 2005, 05:58 PM
You know Azzy's a Christian, right? He knows about blending the two. He was just making a point (and kind of beat me to it I think) of the double-standard that some pagans have when suddenly a Christian decides there is some truth and personality they can use to worshp the Divine using pagan practices.

MorningDove030202
November 15th, 2005, 09:02 PM
Weither Christians would agree with me or not, there is still Magickal Energy inherent in most religions. Christians just call it "the holy spirit", not magick. In keeping with this idea, I think that Christians recognizing this and using magickal constructs (like casting a circle) to contain, focus and direct such energy would be of value to any religion and practicioner......

Dove

Silver Ivy
November 15th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Weither Christians would agree with me or not, there is still Magickal Energy inherent in most religions. Christians just call it "the holy spirit", not magick. In keeping with this idea, I think that Christians recognizing this and using magickal constructs (like casting a circle) to contain, focus and direct such energy would be of value to any religion and practicioner......

Dove

This is a really good point, Morning Dove ...
I agree with you about the Holy Spirit :)

BeachWitch
November 16th, 2005, 03:06 AM
Weither Christians would agree with me or not, there is still Magickal Energy inherent in most religions. Christians just call it "the holy spirit", not magick. In keeping with this idea, I think that Christians recognizing this and using magickal constructs (like casting a circle) to contain, focus and direct such energy would be of value to any religion and practicioner......

Dove
Hi there again, just chiming in here.

You know your post would seem to make sense, but it's not fact. I have been dating a Christian now - a minister even - and they have no concept of sacred space. They raise energy sure, but they are completely unaware. There's no real structure and no acknowledgement of the power they generate. Very strange to me being raised Catholic and now a Witch.

But again, I am speaking of American Christianity, Evangelical, type of Christianity.

LostSheep
November 16th, 2005, 04:55 AM
Maybe I can't put it as eloquently as some of the folks here have, but I accept the teachings of Jesus and recognize him as a spiritual leader, but I believe that the God and Goddess are in all living things, rather than a patriarchal, jealous, 'worship no gods but me' kind of fire and brimstone God, and simple as I may be, but I don't think there's any contradiction there, as Jesus surely revised a lot of the much, much older teachings in the Old Testament ... just my ten cents worth. please don't shoot me down...

Cyzarine
November 16th, 2005, 12:29 PM
I understand what MorningDove030202 was saying. Catholics...Ukrainian Catholics who are Byzantine...use circle casting. They will not admit to such and they probably don't even know it. They do what most would consider casting a circle. They walk around the altar and stop at each one of the 4 directions. they use incense to cleanse the altar space. If you have ever been in one of these churches and you look up at the dome you will see a connection with sacred circle space. It is circular and at each corner (or so to speak) you have a symbol of the elements. In the church I grew up in it was a lion, griffin, and two other animal beings. And yes, it was a Ukrainian Catholic church.

I have to agree as well that most Christians call this magickal energy that is within us all and around us all 'Holy Spirit.' I could go on about the magick inherent in, at least, the Catholic faith I grew up to learn...but I will not.

Ninjakitten
November 17th, 2005, 07:28 PM
With the way some other Christians see churches, it almost seems like they consider churches to be sacred spaces and maybe even physical representations of a sacred circle that are constantly in place. There are some churches I've gone to where I've clearly felt an energy (at the time, I considered it the "presence of the Holy Spirit). Perhaps a church can be seen as a way to have a constantly erected sacred space, especially in churches where things are ritualized, like from what I've heard about many Catholic churches.

raminda
November 19th, 2005, 02:51 AM
It's not for me, but I'm fine with other people being of this path if they want to.

LostSheep
November 19th, 2005, 06:33 PM
With the way some other Christians see churches, it almost seems like they consider churches to be sacred spaces and maybe even physical representations of a sacred circle that are constantly in place. There are some churches I've gone to where I've clearly felt an energy (at the time, I considered it the "presence of the Holy Spirit). Perhaps a church can be seen as a way to have a constantly erected sacred space, especially in churches where things are ritualized, like from what I've heard about many Catholic churches.

Here in the UK, when Christianity was trying to get a foothold, they customarily built churches on sites of pagan worship... hilltops, sacred spaces, meeting points of energy lines, that kind of thing - and they may well have done the same in the US and other countries, so I think it's quite possible that there was a 'presence' at those sites which was why they were considered sacred in the first place.

Ninjakitten
November 20th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Here in the UK, when Christianity was trying to get a foothold, they customarily built churches on sites of pagan worship... hilltops, sacred spaces, meeting points of energy lines, that kind of thing - and they may well have done the same in the US and other countries, so I think it's quite possible that there was a 'presence' at those sites which was why they were considered sacred in the first place.


I think it's interesting that those same churches that were built on pagan sites have some pagan artwork to them, like the Green Man, and even the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City has pentacles on it... I think they might be inverted pentacles.

Christo Pagan
November 21st, 2005, 09:43 AM
even the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City has pentacles on it... I think they might be inverted pentacles.

That's very true. Joseph Smith was very influenced by Hermeticism and Masonry, which is why you see a lot of Hermetic thought embedded within Mormon theology.

There's a great book called "The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Theology" by John L. Brooke that I highly recommend for anyone that is interested in the subject.

Cyzarine
November 21st, 2005, 02:38 PM
Thanks for listing that book. I think it would be an interesting read.