An Admission

[Amethyst Rose]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...

[Bec_W]

Your not alone, there are some things that I really have a lot of trouble reconciling myself with. Faery's and what not being just one example. I don't think it matters though, just because your pagan doesn't mean you have believe everything. In fact isn't that kind of the point? :)

[Nighthawk]

One must know their mind.... Perhaps you need to see to believe. Remember that your reality may be different than someone elses...

[Aine of the Fae]

Hun, you're not a bad pagan, and you aren't the only one who is skeptical. I'm skeptical until I've experienced something that makes it real for me. It may not be scientific proof, but it's still more experience than just blind belief.

I believe in ghosts and faeries because of very real experiences that I've had. Same reason for my belief in God and Jesus. Other stuff? Well I won't name anything specific but there is some really, really out there stuff that I just can't bring myself to believe in.

But, to each their own!

[Shanti]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan... Your not bad!!! Your skeptic. Nothing wrong with that. Truth is truth for each individual. Look at it this way, one mans trash is another mans treasure. Truth for one is not truth for the other and the others truth is not for the other one. Does that make sence. We know what we feel and/or expirance. Just because it may not be real for you does not mean its not real to another!!

We are all unique and so our our beliefs and expirances!!!!

And your ok too!

[SilverClaw]

WEll I am a skeptic about certain things as well ,it does not mean that you are a bad pagan. Like Nighthawks post
Perhaps you need to see to believe. Remember that your reality may be different than someone elses... . Also sometimes being skeptical can be a safe gaurd , in the fat at lteast you will not fall for anything!

[AterCorax]

Whoever said pagans needed to believe in faeries to be pagans? Not me.

I think it's good that you only believe in the things that you've experienced. Just as long as it doesn't stop you from trying out new things, I think it's great.

That's how everybody should be thinking, IMO.

-Ater

[Athena-Nadine]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...
You're not a bad Pagan. You're a discrminating human. :) It's a good thing.

Of course, I think so because I'm very skeptical about many things.

[Druchii]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...

I completely and totally relate... BELIEVE me I do. And no you aren't a bad pagan.

[Cappy]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...

I agree with you there Ame, I have to say, I can't help rolling my eyes at some of the stuff I see sometimes too.
But I try to keep an open mind, I remind myself of some of the stuff that's happened to me that would make other people role their eyes. You just never know. I just keep telling myself that the world we live in isn't limited by what we see or feel and that the possibilities are endless.
But in the end, I just trust my gut. If someone makes stuff up because they want attention, I can usually tell.

[Amethyst Rose]

It just seems that other pagans, specifically those on this board, believe in and have experienced such amazing things....I just end up feeling out of place becausde instead of saying "oh, cool" I'm thinking, "yeah, right".

[Athena-Nadine]

*...laughs...* I say "Yeah, right," at least 2-3 times a day when reading some of the threads here. Sometimes, they seem so implausible that I can't even get myself to read them all the way through. It's nothing to feel bad about.

[Bec_W]

*grins* I know that feeling :lol: A few things I've read here are a little...erhm... wierd. Hey at least you know your not the only one who's bitting their tongue :D

[docdoo]

I'm glad someone finally stepped up to the plate and admitted it. Quite frankly Amethyst, whether we like to believe it or not, the world is utterly FULL of liars. I'll go a step further than your 'I'de like to believe but I'm a skeptic' theory...there are some things that are just so implausible that I'm convinced the person is lying. Most likely the intention is to be special and 'one up' the perfectly plausible story that went before theirs.

An open mind is great, when its so open that your brain leaks out, well....that's not so great. Keep up the skepticism...it'll keep you sane! LOL

[Sleet]

Practicing an alternative religion does not require you to check your brain at the door. I still keep my baloney detector oiled and ready for action.

[Amethyst Rose]

Thanks, guys....it's nice to know I'm normal. ;)

[Boogins]

It just seems that other pagans, specifically those on this board, believe in and have experienced such amazing things....I just end up feeling out of place becausde instead of saying "oh, cool" I'm thinking, "yeah, right".
Man, I think we've all done that! Unless we're all bad pagans, you can't be one. :)

[Bec_W]

Maybe we're all bad pagans? At least if we are we're in good company :)

[PAGANFILES]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...

What you are is a young seeker...and anyone under 50 is a youngun to me. <G> I can remember Ice wagons pulled by horses. If anyone had told me they foresaw an American flag on the moon I'd say, "Oh yeah and your daddy dates Greta Garbo."

After so many decades I've come down to believe almost anything until it is proved false to me......That is the only difference between the two of us. <SS> small smile, because I wouldn't want to wish my wrinkles and joints to you.

Terry

[PAGANFILES]

One must know their mind.... Perhaps you need to see to believe. Remember that your reality may be different than someone elses...

Bethcha 2 shells and 10 quills she'd jump at a dream catcher. <BG>

Terry

Old tribal joke,
7th Cavalry fella: I didn't know Indians grinned.
Lakota Brave: That was before you got scalped.

[DixieWitch]

You're not bad. Every one's mind works in a different way thus everyone's mind is open to other things. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. I'm not trying to fuss or anything. I'm just saying we're all different. I used to not believe in faeries. Until I saw them personally! Ghosts and spirits on the other hand, I've seen all my life. Divination is a road I haven't traveled either. And it took me many years to get in touch with the Divine. I consider myself more of a bad Pagan because I haven't performed a ritual in over a year. I haven't even celebrated a Sabbat or Esabbat. And it was only last week that I set up my altar again after all that time. We're all different. It's an open mind that makes us similar.

[Bec_W]

I can believe that other people believe in things I don't. There are people, on this board and in other places could tell me they've seen faeries I'd believe them. But by far most of the people who've told me they've things like that haven't seemed to crediable.

Hopefully that wont come across as me being confrontational, just trying to clear up my point a little more :)

[morrigen]

Practicing an alternative religion does not require you to check your brain at the door. I still keep my baloney detector oiled and ready for action.

Me too :)

[Mab]

I'm hugely skeptical about a lot of things ppl say they have seen, experienced, or even are...

frankly, I'd rather be skeptical & find out I was wrong than to believe everything I hear.

[samiaminsane]

I'm quite skeptical myself, not only with spiritual experiences but people in general. I find it hard to trust and believe in things.... it takes me time. But then I think of my own experiences that sound pretty wacky and wonder if I'm just too hard on other people and what happens within their lives. Eh, who knows?

[Amethyst Rose]

frankly, I'd rather be skeptical & find out I was wrong than to believe everything I hear.

Good point!

[Sleet]

Me too :)

:)

WHich isn't to say I don't believe in my share of weird stuff. I just don't think that believing in some of the weird stuff obligates one to believe in all of the weird stuff ;)

[Tsuchimaru]

I've become very skeptical....heck, if I didn't like this place, I'd say most of you are nuts!

But then.....what would that make me? :lol:

[Sleet]

... I'd say most of you are nuts!

Yes, but that's completely beside the point.





;)

[Lunacie]

I've even been skeptical of things I've seen and done myself, until I was able to see or do them again and thereby prove them to myself. :) Now that I have seen and done things that most people don't consider possible or real, I find I don't discount something or someone unless they way they are presenting it sounds more like a way of getting attention.

[morrigen]

:)

WHich isn't to say I don't believe in my share of weird stuff. I just don't think that believing in some of the weird stuff obligates one to believe in all of the weird stuff ;)

Exactly.

It's the difference between accepting everything you hear or are told at face value, and accepting that which you chooe to accept, due to your own conclusions drawn on evidence that is acceptable to you.

For me, a little skepticism is a healthy thing.

[Lucidia]

all i can say is.. my mother is mentally ill.. and sometimes.. i wonder... if all the things that i've "experienced" and "done" were just hallucinations or delusions.. like my mother has.... (although hers are a bit more... bizzare).

I doubt myself. I have no reason to expect others not to doubt me as well. It doesn't mean you don't believe your own beliefs.. just that you don't "connect" with the faith of some other people who happen to fall into the "pagan" category.. and since "pagan" means a gazillion different things to a gazillion different people... you shouldnt' feel bad.. just be yourself. if anything.. worry less about other people and if they are lying or nutty or whatnot... maybe just be happy for them because they are happy with their beliefs.. true or not.

[DarkDancer]

Amethyst Rose, as far as I can tell most of the Pagan religions are experiential religions. They are good places for skeptics.

I, myself (as opposed to I suppose I, someone else) have many things that I don't specifically believe in, vampires say, I don't specifically believe in them, but would not be terribly suprised to find that they are real (and I mean like movie vamps, sucking bodies dry, burnt by the slightest rays of the sun, only killable ina small set of ways, and then you can probably still get them back if you're not careful).

I do specifically believe in fey creatures, I've seen one. I don't really expect you guys will believe me, as you weren't there and didn't see it. You may think I misinterpereted what I saw. You may be correct, bnut I don't think so... ;)

[savannahrose44]

You see that's just the trouble with magic...There is no concrete explaination for it. Some have sight....others do not. That doesn't mean that things don't exhist. You cannot see an atom with the naked eye, but they exhist. Just like some people cannot see auras with with the naked eye and others can, but anyone can with the aid of science. i.e. they have photographed it. The realm of possibilities is endless...I try to keep an open mind. :D

[mara]

I don't worry too much about judging other people's experiences..I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I never totally buy something someone tells me, I just consider it a possibility. when a phenomenon or something happens to me, then I believe.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...


i agree with bec, you don't have to believe everything. and you don't need to believe anything that you don't want to. :p it's not wrong not to believe something.

one thing that is wrong, though, is pushing your views on others. my father did this a lot in the past. i would be talking to my mother about spirits, and he'd shout at me, "they don't exist! stop talking about this mumbo-jumbo because it's false! fake! fallacy! not true!" and i'd be like, "but, dad--" "it's not true! no such thing as spirits!" now, this is what i consider pushing your views onto someone else's. my father accomplished that quite aptly, by essentially chastising me for believing something that he didn't believe in.

it's fine not to believe. just don't chastise someone who does.


edit: what i'm trying to say is that you're allowed not to believe people. but... your skepticism doesn't give you the right to bash others' beliefs to their faces, as that is not a very kind thing to do. :) what i am trying to say... is don't ruin beliefs for someone else. it may be all that they have.

edit edit: lol. okay. i am coming across way rude here, and i don't mean to. xP especially since i know that you already know what i'm saying. imo , if someone tells you something you really, really disbelieve in, don't say "oh, that's bullshit." you're allowed not to believe, but there's a lot more of a polite way to do so. :p

[Xeen]

I really truely know how you feel. You sound -exactly- like me. I feel like everybody is constantly lying to me, but I want to believe sooo much.

I hear people say that they work with dragons, or fairies, or other things, and I think their either nuckin' futs, or embellishing, or just want to fit in with the rest of the liars. And I don't want to say that to be mean, but I've been hurt a lot in the past with lies, and I'm so afraid of it happening again and again and again...

At any rate... I know what you're feeling.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

oh, something else :p imo perhaps one should not assume that one is lying to one - they are simply communicating what they believe to be true.

you don't have to agree.

[Romani Vixen]

Not a bad pagan. Just remember that it's all about perspective. What I call a fairy, you might call a particular type of energy. It doens't matter the name or face that we put on it.

We're all Gods in our own worlds, make of yours what you will.

[Elise]

*grins* I know that feeling :lol: A few things I've read here are a little...erhm... wierd. Hey at least you know your not the only one who's bitting their tongue :D
And Amethyst Rose...

I bite my tongue quite a bit.. Having been a traditional Christian for nearly all my life, I had that ' blind faith' I came to realize that once in awhile, I needed to see "signs' that my blind faith wasnt misplaced..When I rarely saw it (VERY rarely),I then thought "so I'm being told to believe just because this tells me to" ..in essence "believe every word you read" .I began thinking this was one sure fire way to be suckered .. Back then my faith couldn't be swayed.. because I was taught "believe, don't question" Well Now I believe that is what gets people suckered ..So I began questioning several things that didn't make sense.. Thus the reason I bite my tongue when I read something that just sounds too outrageous to be true..

[AuroraSilvermist]

Amethyst, you and I sound pretty similar. I'm skeptical, too. I like what my favorite author, Christopher Moore, said in his latest book: "The science you don't understand looks like magic." I prefer to leave myself open to magical experiences in my life, but without instantly buying into everything I'm told. I couldn't possibly believe in something that didn't have the resonant ring of truth to me; which is a wordy way of saying that when it comes to my beliefs, I trust my finely tuned bullsh*t detector. :D

[soilsigh aingeal]

I am just as skeptic as you are. I too need to see or experience something to believe it. You're not a bad pagan.

[Antoninus]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...

Your not a bad pagan, like the others said, your a skeptic. There are certain things I see on here that I go "Nuh uh, no way that could happen." And Ive seen some things in my life that, if I hadnt actually seen them with my own two eyes, I would have NEVER believed. Magical and otherwise.

[Erebus]

I put most of the really fantastical paranormal claims I see around here in the same category that I put most of the people who claim to have IQs in the 140-180 range. Simply put, while it's not impossible, it's.... well, statistically speaking, in the general population, there are far more liars than geniuses.

In a similar vein, there are far more liars than clairvoyants, Guardians, or fairy friends.

[Radocs]

It just means you're using your head, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[ravynbynorthwynd]

not sure of your background, but could it be that thats what you're used to from other religions; people embellashing the truth, pretending about things?

[Flar's Freyja]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...

I once went to a pagan gathering, looked around at my friends and wondered what I was doing hanging out with these wierd people! I reached a point where I was actually turned off by those who seemed to enjoy "putting on" the pagan persona, and I began to withdraw a bit from the pagan community.

But I also realize that I'm being judgemental by thinking that way. The older I get, the more I think that either we all possess the truth or nobody really does. To each his own, live and let live and all that.

[Aelfoak]

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...
Your not a bad Pagan at all Rose, i sometimes struggle too with the idea of Faeries, Elves and a few other folklore spirits, but i think that these things make being a Pagan a bit magical and mysterious, and seeing that we live in such a commercial and materialistic world which there isn't much magic around anymore, i think that believing in these things if they are real or not doesn't hurt a bit.

[asamananara]

I think it would be great to have an anonymous BS meter on
the bottom of each post which could be clicked by anyone who
reads something they have a hard time accepting.

[Old Witch]

You're not bad.......I tend to be skeptical to......I believe most in what I can do myself.....I mean I live in a "haunted" house and I see a ghost all the time, so I believe. I've seen my spells work, so I believe. I experience ESP so I believe. That's why I try to believe other "stuff" I hear about. I think, well maybe it's just something I can't do or see yet, but I'm still skeptical........

[Tullip Troll]

I think it would be great to have an anonymous BS meter on
the bottom of each post which could be clicked by anyone who
reads something they have a hard time accepting.

No we don't need people to feel attacked. You don't believe or like it move on...

MheraPai...

I believe in a lot of things..I also believe that some people need to be extra special.

[Amethyst Rose]

not sure of your background, but could it be that thats what you're used to from other religions; people embellashing the truth, pretending about things?

Nope, I wasn't really raised in any religion...but that may have something to do with it. My dad is an athiest and doesn't believe in anything that can't be proved...the same with my husband. Maybe they've just worn off on me. ;)

[Lunacie]

I think there's a good balance between being skeptical yet being open to possibilities, eh? Some people seem very defensive about what other people believe. I wonder why that is?

[Erebus]

I think there's a good balance between being skeptical yet being open to possibilities, eh? Some people seem very defensive about what other people believe. I wonder why that is?

In my case, it's because pagans as a community are the ripest victims for con artists of all stripes primarily because they either feel like they HAVE to believe someone else's cock-and-bull story or else invalidate their own real experiences, or they're simply unwilling to believe that they'd ever be lied to by "one of their own" for selfish gain - money, fame, attention, or whatever.

Or, less charitably, perhaps it's because pagans as a community are just very, very gullible and willing to believe anything nifty and special-sounding anyone else tells them. Perhaps because if other people can do fantastic special things, maybe they can too, and that's a real seductive reason to believe?

In any case, there are hundreds of charlatans, some highly famous now, who make their living by exploiting the gullibility of the pagan community. THAT'S why I actually apply my skepticism, as opposed to being a closet skeptic or a lurker skeptic.

[WitchJezebel]

I don't worry too much about judging other people's experiences..I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I never totally buy something someone tells me, I just consider it a possibility. when a phenomenon or something happens to me, then I believe.

My thoughts exactly.

[Equinox]

Yay! Congratulatoins, Amethyst Rose for stepping out of the tiny skeptical broom closet that is within the larger Pagan broomcloset! I try to keep myself from being in there too – I’m completely skeptical, yet I enjoy Paganism as part of my spirituality. I’ve labeled this path “Naturalistic Paganism”, and there is a thread on it here:

http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=57102 (please feel free to post, it hasn’t had a post in a while!)

I too don’t believe in anything without good evidence, and I haven’t seen that yet for gods, spells, miracles, or unicorns. Yet, the wheel of the year and the 4 directions are central to my spirituality. I’ve put together a little page on it at
www.naturalpagan.org - feel free to stop by, see all the uses for the wheel as a metaphor, and sign the guestbook.

We all have to balance rationality with fun. We skeptics should not be so skeptical that we can’t have a good time.

To balance these, we need to test our ideas, while enjoying this life.
We need to be reasonably skeptical, but not fearful.
We need to be open minded, but not so open minded that our brains fall out.
We need to be happy with our spirituality, while being open to other ideas and testing both the other ideas and our own against the evidence.
Like the light and the dark balance in March and September, so too do these approaches balance in a healthy person.

Lastly, I sometimes use this thought experiment to keep me religiously tolerant of people who believe things that to me seem silly.

Imagine that scientists implanted a wire into your brain which allowed your actual thoughts to appear on a computer screen. Let’s say that we had this hooked up to you, and I bet you a million dollars that you couldn’t sincerely believe (for even a minute) that the sun wouldn’t come up tomorrow. I think my money would be safe. You could lie, and say whatever you wanted, but your brain, deep down, would know you were lying, and I’d see that on the computer screen.

To me, this illustrates that we really don’t have complete free will of belief. We believe what we think is most likely to be true, based on what we’ve seen and heard, whether we want to believe it or not. Some people can live in denial, but deep down, they still can’t decide to just believe whatever. Like the Truman show, we sometimes start to realize things, even if we don't want to. We may have some choice over our most basic assumption, or about what information we seek out, but it is far from perfect free will.

This means we have to be religiously tolerant. If you meet someone who believes things that don’t make sense to you, you can remember that their beliefs aren’t completely their choice, and so don’t look down on them for it. Maybe provide them with the information they need to slowly come around – they may not have heard about it. Plus, maybe on some points they are right – it is statistically unlikely that any of us are right about everything.

Us skeptical Pagans need to remember that we aren’t alone, even if it sometimes feels that way. More importantly, I’ve found the Pagan community to be very accepting of disbelief (as this thread shows), while other religious communities certainly aren’t!!

May the light from 10 billion distant suns light your nightime path-

[WolfWonderess]

Nah, I'm a skeptic, as well. There are TONS of "crazy" things I believe in, because I've experienced them (and not just once, either...quite frequently, in many cases). However, I am skeptical about many things...but I guess that's because I've yet to experience it for myself.

It's good to be skeptical. If we accepted everything blindly as truth...how healthy can that be?

I try and give people the benefit of the doubt, though.

[AuroraSilvermist]

In my case, it's because pagans as a community are the ripest victims for con artists of all stripes primarily because they either feel like they HAVE to believe someone else's cock-and-bull story or else invalidate their own real experiences, or they're simply unwilling to believe that they'd ever be lied to by "one of their own" for selfish gain - money, fame, attention, or whatever.

Or, less charitably, perhaps it's because pagans as a community are just very, very gullible and willing to believe anything nifty and special-sounding anyone else tells them. Perhaps because if other people can do fantastic special things, maybe they can too, and that's a real seductive reason to believe?

In any case, there are hundreds of charlatans, some highly famous now, who make their living by exploiting the gullibility of the pagan community. THAT'S why I actually apply my skepticism, as opposed to being a closet skeptic or a lurker skeptic.

I don't think that's necessarily true of JUST pagans. In fact, many pagans that I know are embued with a healthy dose of skepticism, and they are also some of the most intelligent, talented people I know. Sure, there are those who want to believe every fantasy and fall for the "seductive" power of...power. But that's true of ANY religion, and not just paganism. Look at all the people who drank cyanide-laced Kool-aid with Jim Jones. How about the Heaven's Gate people? Those are extremes, but consider all the born again Christians who believed they could buy redemption by lining the pockets of television evangelists like Jim and Tammy Baker. Name a creed, and I'll find you an example of people who've been seduced by the notion that they can achieve "fantastic special things" through faith, or money, or even ritual suicide.

Sorry for ranting, but it's not just pagans, it's people from all walks, all faiths, all ethnic and economic backgrounds. I take offense at the notion that pagans are the "ripest victims" for deceit and cons, because it is patently untrue.

[Lunacie]

Aurora, that's pretty much what I was going to say, but you beat me to it. :thumbsup:

[charmedkisses1]

Yeah...

Sometimes I feel that certain people exagerrate, or feed off each other to make them feel like they've really "seen" or "done" something supernatural, etc.


Bad me :o

[Lunacie]

Yeah...

Sometimes I feel that certain people exagerrate, or feed off each other to make them feel like they've really "seen" or "done" something supernatural, etc.


Bad me :o
Some people actually do that. But don't let them make you feel that everyone with an amazing story is doing the same thing or you may miss out on some incredible things.

[AuroraSilvermist]

Lastly, I sometimes use this thought experiment to keep me religiously tolerant of people who believe things that to me seem silly.

Imagine that scientists implanted a wire into your brain which allowed your actual thoughts to appear on a computer screen. Let’s say that we had this hooked up to you, and I bet you a million dollars that you couldn’t sincerely believe (for even a minute) that the sun wouldn’t come up tomorrow. I think my money would be safe. You could lie, and say whatever you wanted, but your brain, deep down, would know you were lying, and I’d see that on the computer screen.

To me, this illustrates that we really don’t have complete free will of belief. We believe what we think is most likely to be true, based on what we’ve seen and heard, whether we want to believe it or not. Some people can live in denial, but deep down, they still can’t decide to just believe whatever. Like the Truman show, we sometimes start to realize things, even if we don't want to. We may have some choice over our most basic assumption, or about what information we seek out, but it is far from perfect free will.

This means we have to be religiously tolerant. If you meet someone who believes things that don’t make sense to you, you can remember that their beliefs aren’t completely their choice, and so don’t look down on them for it. Maybe provide them with the information they need to slowly come around – they may not have heard about it. Plus, maybe on some points they are right – it is statistically unlikely that any of us are right about everything.

Us skeptical Pagans need to remember that we aren’t alone, even if it sometimes feels that way. More importantly, I’ve found the Pagan community to be very accepting of disbelief (as this thread shows), while other religious communities certainly aren’t!!

May the light from 10 billion distant suns light your nightime path-

Yes! Yes! YES! :boing:

Oh, sorry, I got a little carred away. But...YES! :D

[BlackHoodedCrow]

I met a pagan who "claimed" he could stop time.

[docdoo]

I don't think that's necessarily true of JUST pagans. In fact, many pagans that I know are embued with a healthy dose of skepticism, and they are also some of the most intelligent, talented people I know. Sure, there are those who want to believe every fantasy and fall for the "seductive" power of...power. But that's true of ANY religion, and not just paganism. Look at all the people who drank cyanide-laced Kool-aid with Jim Jones. How about the Heaven's Gate people? Those are extremes, but consider all the born again Christians who believed they could buy redemption by lining the pockets of television evangelists like Jim and Tammy Baker. Name a creed, and I'll find you an example of people who've been seduced by the notion that they can achieve "fantastic special things" through faith, or money, or even ritual suicide.

Sorry for ranting, but it's not just pagans, it's people from all walks, all faiths, all ethnic and economic backgrounds. I take offense at the notion that pagans are the "ripest victims" for deceit and cons, because it is patently untrue.


I think that what Erebus is trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong Erebus) is that the very nature of paganism tends to draw people who are more wiling to believe things they may not otherwise believe.

I mean, lets face it, Paganism is the only place where people will hear that Dragons and Faeries do exist. It's the only place you'll get confirmation that magic works and that there are entire dimensions and realms on the 'astral'. As a group Pagans accept theories and ideas that 'other' faiths and paths categorically reject. This is a large part of the draw of Paganism...and it also explains why Pagans tend to draw many angsty teenagers who are looking for a quick fix on 'How to make my Boyfriend love me again!'

We are more open-minded as a group and sure...there are people who think they can buy their way into heaven but honestly...are you trying to tell me that the population at large would think that buying your way into heaven is as absurd an idea as having a Dragon for a spirit guide??

[docdoo]

Some people actually do that. But don't let them make you feel that everyone with an amazing story is doing the same thing or you may miss out on some incredible things.


Lunacie, that is a very good point! My rule of thumb is that until I meet someone (and no, I'm not talking about knowing them online but rather in person where I can *really* judge their hold on reality) I don't take most of their claims seriously. Oh and I always allow myself to 'disbelieve' something I previously believed about someone as I get to know them and get a feel for how grounded in reality they are :)

[AuroraSilvermist]

I think that what Erebus is trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong Erebus) is that the very nature of paganism tends to draw people who are more wiling to believe things they may not otherwise believe.

I mean, lets face it, Paganism is the only place where people will hear that Dragons and Faeries do exist. It's the only place you'll get confirmation that magic works and that there are entire dimensions and realms on the 'astral'. As a group Pagans accept theories and ideas that 'other' faiths and paths categorically reject. This is a large part of the draw of Paganism...and it also explains why Pagans tend to draw many angsty teenagers who are looking for a quick fix on 'How to make my Boyfriend love me again!'

Understood. What I'm saying is that this sort of belief is inherant in other religions, as well. Take a look at Christianity, for instance. (And no, I'm not picking on Christians, I'm just using this as an example.) You said: As a group Pagans accept theories and ideas that 'other' faiths and paths categorically reject. Okay, so yes, there are pagans who believe in the existance of faeries or dragons. There are some who believe that they can quickly fix their lives by working a spell. I'm not questioning that at all, because I know that sort of thinking exists. It's not MY way of thinking, but I accept those who DO think that way. I also accept Christians who believe that angels watch over them, or that praying to their god will bring good things into their lives, or solve their problems. I accept people who believe beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus walked on water, and used a few loaves of bread and some fish to feed an entire multitude.

The point is, why does belief in dragons or faeries make us any more gullible or susceptable to fraud than those who believe in angels and the holy ghost?

[Erebus]

I don't think that's necessarily true of JUST pagans. In fact, many pagans that I know are embued with a healthy dose of skepticism, and they are also some of the most intelligent, talented people I know.

Unfortunately for me, 98% of my experience with the pagan community comes from these boards. Skepticism... or, at least, actively expressed skepticism... is something I almost never see.

[WolfWonderess]

I've talked to pagans who claimed they could control the weather. ^^;;

Riddle me a skeptic...

Though, I do believe in the power of Native American rain dances...

[Pandoras]

I've talked to pagans who claimed they could control the weather. ^^;;

In one of her books, Laurie Cabot claimed she made it snow in the middle of summer.

[Bec_W]

I met a pagan who "claimed" he could stop time.

If I could have one "super power" that would be it.

It's in Power of a Witch Pandoras :)

I also had a friend who claimed to be able to control the weather. I could never really disprove him, every time I saw him (which was very often) it was dark and gloomy :lol:

[Aidron]

A healthy dose of skepticism is part of wisdom I believe.

"Question all things and never fully commit to any one answer."

[BlueFlame]

I am a skeptic.

I am surrounded by people in the pagan community who say they have seen and done things, and I just don't believe them.

It's hard for me to think of examples of things that I don't believe, it's easier to say what I do believe. I believe in the energy of the universe, (not a divine being). I believe in reincarnation and in ghosts, to some extent. I want to believe in fairies and little people, but I have a hard time. I believe in divination and empathy, to the extent that I have experience with.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this....except that get frustrated at myself for thinking that everyone's just embellishing the truth. I'd like to have more tollerance, but I just can't stop myself from rolling my eyes.

Guess I'm just a bad pagan...
I don't believe in faeries, ghosts, demons, angels, telekinesis, or heck, even astrology.

And I consider myself to be a rather good Pagan. :)

I'm skeptical of everything. I'm especially skeptical of people who are not skeptical. I don't understand how anyone can just accept something as truth. I guess thats just not the way I think, I always have to question things. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Thats not to say that I don't have faith, but I'm not a person who takes faith lightly. The God and The Goddess, and the Elements are very real to me, and I have complete faith in them because I've experienced it first hand, but most importantly because it makes sense to me. I understand reincarnation, and pantheism. I look at the world, look at what I believe, and I think they are in harmony.

When I look at the world, I don't see the possibility for the Loch Ness monster, telekinesis, or alien abductors. Even if I thought I saw these with my own eyes I would be skeptical because they do not make sense.

Belief with out reason, is superstition.

So don't feel bad, because you're not the only seditious Pagan out there.

[{Tigress}]

I'm a skeptic of the worst order. I have even doubted things I've personally experienced, trying to write them off as something other than "magick" or "supernatural". But, when I finally come to accept something as a Truth, my belief in it becomes rooted in my very soul. And that's why I've come to my ultimate belief that it doesn't matter what you believe to be true or not -- it's the belief itself that counts.

I BELIEVE we can change the world by the power of our Will. If I believe in something strong enough, it WILL be true -- even if something has to change to make it so. As it is even stated in the Bible, "If you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains."

So for me, being a skeptic is absolutely essential as part of my journey down my Path. If I wasn't skeptical, then my beliefs, so easily aquired, would not be nearly strong enough to have any meaning in my life. As it stands, when I finally accept the Truth of something, that Truth has POWER because it has withstood and conquered my own skepticism.

[Lunacie]

I've talked to pagans who claimed they could control the weather. ^^;;

Riddle me a skeptic...

Though, I do believe in the power of Native American rain dances...
I am also skeptical of people who claim they can control the weather. But I know some people who can influence the weather, and I am one of them. I've been practicing on the super cell thunderstorms we've had in our area this spring and summer, and none of them have dropped any tornados bigger than a weak F3. Have our local "weather witches" had anything to do with this? It would be hard to prove scientifically, but I believe it is possible.

[NivekDrgnMage]

What you are is a young seeker...and anyone under 50 is a youngun to me. <G> I can remember Ice wagons pulled by horses. If anyone had told me they foresaw an American flag on the moon I'd say, "Oh yeah and your daddy dates Greta Garbo."

After so many decades I've come down to believe almost anything until it is proved false to me......That is the only difference between the two of us. <SS> small smile, because I wouldn't want to wish my wrinkles and joints to you.

Terry

Hey I remember some of that stuff.... ;) Plus I think its fun to be bad...opppps wrong concept :D

Plus the world is flat, the sky is green and the ground is blue......again sorry I wwa standing on my head :)

[Xentor]

I'm quite the skeptic myself. If it weren't for things I experienced myself, I wouldn't believe a lot.

For instance: I don't believe in dragons. A couple of months ago, a dragon visited me and stayed with me for 1 or 2 weeks. Finally, not knowing how to deal with the creature, I sent it back home. And I STILL don't believe in dragons.

Open minded? Sure. Have an open mind and investigate. Then have an open mind and accept the result of your investigation. Even when it isn't what you expected.

[{Tigress}]

I'm quite the skeptic myself. If it weren't for things I experienced myself, I wouldn't believe a lot.

For instance: I don't believe in dragons. A couple of months ago, a dragon visited me and stayed with me for 1 or 2 weeks. Finally, not knowing how to deal with the creature, I sent it back home. And I STILL don't believe in dragons.

Open minded? Sure. Have an open mind and investigate. Then have an open mind and accept the result of your investigation. Even when it isn't what you expected.

That is soooo me! I read Tarot, but it took me years and innumberable "impossible" readings for me to actually believe it was anything more than just really good intuition, advice, and psychology on my part.