the great rite

[The High Queen of Faerie]

i'm curious to hear opinions on this.

(i hope this is appropriate, it's not really graphic)


anyway.

what do you think about the great rite being performed in a coven environment? do you think the great rite should be a private thing between couples in the privacy of their own homes (or elsewhere)?

once i've got enough responses, i'll make this into a poll :p just to get a graphic representation.

[i.t.]

Well, you know what i think about this, dear.

I think that sex is sacred between the two people who perform it together, and so it should be them alone.

[Romani Vixen]

I'm sure that there are Covens who.... perform... or all participate... but I havn't run across any.

I feel that it's too personal a thing. it's very intimate... to turn it to spectators demeans it...

IMHO....

[The High Queen of Faerie]

I'm sure that there are Covens who.... perform... or all participate... but I havn't run across any.

I feel that it's too personal a thing. it's very intimate... to turn it to spectators demeans it...

IMHO....

i agree :p

[asamananara]

I'm sure that there are Covens who.... perform... or all participate... but I havn't run across any.

There are, indeed. While living in North Carolina, I worked briefly
with a coven which banned all outside sexual relations. Sex
was considered a holy act of creation, the most sacred of all
endevours. They regarded the profanation of the sexual act
a crime against the gods, and permitted it only for procreation
within a full ritual setting. Children born into the trad
were conceived in the circle, and considered the elect of the
coven.

[Mab]

hmmmm.....I'm not sure how I feel about it.........I mean, I can see how a public display can be demeaning or playing into sensationalism.....and I can definitely see how it seem much more meaningful in an intimate setting w/only the two participants.....

but I can also see how it could be done (or rather could have been) in a public setting long years ago...back when the Beltain fires were a public celebration & a common occurrence.....back when Year Kings were chose to represent the god.....before (or just after) the Christians started pushing ancient pagan practices underground.....I could see the meaning & importance of it...

[Romani Vixen]

There are, indeed. While living in North Carolina, I worked briefly
with a coven which banned all outside sexual relations. Sex
was considered a holy act of creation, the most sacred of all
endevours. They regarded the profanation of the sexual act
a crime against the gods, and permitted it only for procreation
within a full ritual setting. Children born into the trad
were conceived in the circle, and considered the elect of the
coven.
Wow... I wonder how those kids turned out....

[Theres]

I think that sex is sacred between the two people who perform it together, and so it should be them alone.
so in your world there can be no 'sacred' sex between three (or more) people? i wonder what the Farrar's (as an example) might say about this?

Sex was considered a holy act of creation, the most sacred of all endevours. They regarded the profanation of the sexual act a crime against the gods, and permitted it only for procreation within a full ritual setting. Children born into the trad were conceived in the circle, and considered the elect of the coven.
this not only sounds elitist and repressive, but very unnatural to me.

[Thalias_Smile]

The Great Rite, is too personal to really "share" in a coven setting. That's my opinion on the matter. For that night, the two ppl are not priest and priestess, but God and Goddess.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

There are, indeed. While living in North Carolina, I worked briefly
with a coven which banned all outside sexual relations. Sex
was considered a holy act of creation, the most sacred of all
endevours. They regarded the profanation of the sexual act
a crime against the gods, and permitted it only for procreation
within a full ritual setting. Children born into the trad
were conceived in the circle, and considered the elect of the
coven.

hmm, that's interesting. i must say that i disagree with confining sexual relations purely to a ritual, coven setting, as well as purely for procreation. i can't imagine how they'd get any gratification that way, lol :p ah well, if the members are comfortable with it! i know i wouldn't be.


hmmmm.....I'm not sure how I feel about it.........I mean, I can see how a public display can be demeaning or playing into sensationalism.....and I can definitely see how it seem much more meaningful in an intimate setting w/only the two participants.....

but I can also see how it could be done (or rather could have been) in a public setting long years ago...back when the Beltain fires were a public celebration & a common occurrence.....back when Year Kings were chose to represent the god.....before (or just after) the Christians started pushing ancient pagan practices underground.....I could see the meaning & importance of it...

very true. in the past, nudity wasn't such a big deal, and i'm sure sex wouldn't have been, either - though the pagans of old, i'm sure, would have honoured the great rite. (history is not my specialty, so please correct me if i err!)

today, unfortunately, i can see a lot of coven members looking on it in a voyeuristic state, almost like free pornography. :(

[The High Queen of Faerie]

The Great Rite, is too personal to really "share" in a coven setting. That's my opinion on the matter. For that night, the two ppl are not priest and priestess, but God and Goddess.

fab way of stating it!

[Romani Vixen]

this not only sounds elitist and repressive, but very unnatural to me.
But those of that trad might consider sex outside of circle unnatural and primitive... or whatever...

I don't agree with it personally... but hey....

[The High Queen of Faerie]

so in your world there can be no 'sacred' sex between three (or more) people? i wonder what the Farrar's (as an example) might say about this?


though i'm not positive, what i think he might mean is that it's a matter of consent. 'two' people might have been mentioned due to the god + goddess = creation mentality, and that is typically what the great rite is - two people engaging in intercourse.

[grnpuffer]

::::wonders if discussion of this topic will ever rise above the need to giggle about/moralize over the idea of turbo boffing the high priest/ess::::

The great rite or sacred marriage has alternative interpretations:

*The sacrifice of the king to bring fertility to the land
*The relationship of christ and his bride (represented by the priest and his church)
*The union of the individual with divine consciousness
*The spiritual union of two people as a means to manifest divine grace on earth
*The deep realization of the nature of creation.
*The union of yin and yang within one's being at the point of illumination

Anybody care to add to this list?

[Mab]

today, unfortunately, i can see a lot of coven members looking on it in a voyeuristic state, almost like free pornography. :(
Exactly....I don't really see how it's practical in today's world.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Exactly....I don't really see how it's practical in today's world.

yeah, agreed. :(

[Romani Vixen]

But if they're looking at it like that, then they have *no* place anywhere near it.

But what if it's the context of a trusted group, where everyone is certain that it isn't the case?

[i.t.]

so in your world there can be no 'sacred' sex between three (or more) people? i wonder what the Farrar's (as an example) might say about this?

No, i mean, that in my own opinion, sex as an act of love between two people is far more important than an offering to the gods.

So then, in my own views, i don't believe in sex between three or more people.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Uh gang? It's a symbolic representation of the Great Rite.

In my coven, as well as the others I've seen, the Great Rite is performed during every ritual with an athame and a chalice. You don't need to actually bump uglies in ritual space to get the point across.

Edited to add: Also, the Great Rite does not only represent something as corporeal and mundane as sex. The Great Rite represents the joining of the God and Goddess, as the archetypal representations of male and female polarity, into one co-joined Universe. It's yin-yang in action.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Uh gang? It's a symbolic representation of the Great Rite.

In my coven, as well as the others I've seen, the Great Rite is performed during every ritual with an athame and a chalice. You don't need to actually bump uglies in ritual space to get the point across.

Edited to add: Also, the Great Rite does not only represent something as corporeal and mundane as sex. The Great Rite represents the joining of the God and Goddess, as the archetypal representations of male and female polarity, into one co-joined Universe. It's yin-yang in action.

EXACTLY.

however, it is commonly percieved as being purely sex - and the question i was attempting to communicate was what people think about the great rite in a sexual sense being performed in a coven, representing the god and goddess.

[Ben Trismegistus]

however, it is commonly percieved as being purely sex - and the question i was attempting to communicate was what people think about the great rite in a sexual sense being performed in a coven, representing the god and goddess.
Well, then people are simply wrong. It's like saying that taking communion in a Catholic ceremony is just about "snack time".

I think that performing the great rite in a sexual sense in a coven setting is, at the very least, over the top. Additionally, it's unnecessary, since the exact same impact can be achieved symbolically. If you feel strongly about putting a literal Great Rite into a group ritual context, I'd recommend sending the HP & HPs into another room for privacy. My wife and I have performed the GR in a ritual context in the privacy of our own bedroom. :)

[The High Queen of Faerie]

If you feel strongly about putting a literal Great Rite into a group ritual context, I'd recommend sending the HP & HPs into another room for privacy. My wife and I have performed the GR in a ritual context in the privacy of our own bedroom. :)

i agree. to me it seems like it should be a private thing between a couple. :)

[DebLipp]

"The Great Rite" is the name of a specific ritual. It is not a euphemism for sex. In many traditions, the nature of the Great Rite is secret. So people can assume it's sex, and snigger. Or they can acknowledge that they don't know everything.

Instead of using the phrase "The Great Rite" when you mean "ritual sex," why not just say "ritual sex" and leave the GR out of it?

[The High Queen of Faerie]

"The Great Rite" is the name of a specific ritual. It is not a euphemism for sex.

i know. :)

In many traditions, the nature of the Great Rite is secret. So people can assume it's sex, and snigger. Or they can acknowledge that they don't know everything.

lol, i assume that was a personal insult. xD but anyway, in this thread, perhaps i should have elaborated upon it in the initial post, i am asking peoples' opinions on the more sexual version of the great rite in a coven setting. not the symbolic version. yes, i am very aware that there is a symbolic version. la.~

[DebLipp]

i know. :)



lol, i assume that was a personal insult. xD but anyway, in this thread, perhaps i should have elaborated upon it in the initial post, i am asking peoples' opinions on the more sexual version of the great rite in a coven setting. not the symbolic version. yes, i am very aware that there is a symbolic version. la.~

No, it wasn't a personal insult, it was a pet peeve. I'm having a rough day. Still, I've been hearing people say GR for 20+ years as if they know what it is, as if they know what is being done in an oathbound rite, and for 20+ years it's been getting on my nerves. Once in a while I slip and let it out. Sorry.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

No, it wasn't a personal insult, it was a pet peeve. I'm having a rough day. Still, I've been hearing people say GR for 20+ years as if they know what it is, as if they know what is being done in an oathbound rite, and for 20+ years it's been getting on my nerves. Once in a while I slip and let it out. Sorry.

no worries, it happens to the best of us. :)

[fay]

i must admit, when you said great rite i had no idea what you were talking about. that might be because i'm a solitary and so this question wouldn't really apply at the moment. however, i don't think that i would ever have ritual sex in a coven circle. mostly as i can be quite self concious about my body and i think that i just wouldn't be comfortable with people in a room watching me. that would just seem weird to me.
blessed be

[The High Queen of Faerie]

i must admit, when you said great rite i had no idea what you were talking about. that might be because i'm a solitary and so this question wouldn't really apply at the moment. however, i don't think that i would ever have ritual sex in a coven circle. mostly as i can be quite self concious about my body and i think that i just wouldn't be comfortable with people in a room watching me. that would just seem weird to me.
blessed be


i'm sorry that i was unclear. :)

[Desdemona]

Everything I have ever read or heard about the Great Rite being performed in the literal, and not symbolic, sense, states unequivically that the focus is on the ritual. If the HP and HPs can't stay focused, and get caught up in the feelings, tactile or otherwise, then they aren't doing it right. Having read that, I thought that this would result in a high probability of failure if performed between strangers, ie; not an established couple.

I heard of a ritual where the HP and HPs performed the Great Rite underneath a blanket in a park, with children present. Not something I personally would support. I have also heard of the Great Rite being performed by a married couple in a separate room. For my sensibilites this seems more appropriate, though I'm with Ben on doing it symbolically in a coven setting, and with my husband in the privacy of our own temple (home.)

I will be attending sometime in the future, a Gnostic mass where the Great Rite is performed in the true literal sense. Should be interesting.

[Athene]

Hi everyone,

I know this is an old thread, but probably not an old topic.

Could somebody tell me from where the term 'Great Rite' stems? Is it Wiccan?

I'm wondering exactly who uses this term and how.

Giving you the traditional witch perspective; ritual sex and/or sexual energy is defintely part of witchdom, but it isn't called the Great Rite and symbolism certainly has no place in it.

That's the closest I can think of that this GR is related to - creating sexual energy. But the GR seems to refer to worship, or a symbolic joining of a god and a goddess. Is this correct?

L&L

[FlyingBear]

With the exception of the occasional GR being performed in privacy by the HP and the HHP, who were usually a couple, the covens I've been part of have always done it symbolically.

It's irratating how our general backassward cultural views about sex have tainted something that could be considered sacred.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Giving you the traditional witch perspective; ritual sex and/or sexual energy is defintely part of witchdom, but it isn't called the Great Rite and symbolism certainly has no place in it.

That's the closest I can think of that this GR is related to - creating sexual energy. But the GR seems to refer to worship, or a symbolic joining of a god and a goddess. Is this correct?
Well, this was stated earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it. Ritual sex is ritual sex. The purpose of ritual sex is, among other things, raising energy through sexual means. The Great Rite is something entirely different. It is a symbolic representation of the balance of the universe, and, as DebLipp said, the details of the ritual are generally oathbound to the specific tradition.

The concept is old. There is evidence of pre-Christian cultures performing similar rituals. I'm unclear about where the term "Great Rite" originated, but there's good circumstantial evidence that it was the Greeks who first coined the term ("Hieros Gamos"). The Wiccans adopted the practice and included it as one of their oathbound rituals.

At the risk of sounding rude, the odds are that if you're not a part of an oathbound mystery tradition, and you think you've been performing the Great Rite, you haven't been. You've probably been performing ritual sex and *calling* it the Great Rite.

[MagickalHack]

I believe that this is why there is the 'symbolic' Great rite. So people can, if they choose, still perform the Great Rite, with a coven, but not have to share the experience of the act with others.

My opinion, it depends obn what my partner is ok with. While I do prefer to keep sex seperated from anything having to deal with public, I am willing to torture people with the sight of my naked body.

I hope this answers the question.