The Morrigan and Danu, the same goddess?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Just and interesting tidbit that might indicate that the Morrigan and Danu/Anu might in fact be one and the same.

From Leabhar Gabhála (The Book of Invasions or Conquests):

Ernmas daughter of Etarlam...had three more daughters
Badb and Macha and Morrigu (whose name was Anann)*

It is an interesting link, especially when you consider that the Gaelic name for the Paps of Anu in Kerry is Dá chich nAnann. So it makes you wonder if the Morrigu, which has been frequently suggested to be a title and not a name, is in fact an epithet applied to the goddess Danu/Anu.

Any thoughts?

*Source: John Carey [trans], 'The Book of Invasions', John T. Koch/John Carey [eds], The Celtic Heroic Age, page 247.

[Rockprincess]

I tend to feel that The Morrigan is her own entity. But since I also beleive that all deity is one, there's no real conflict there ;)

Edited for spelling - I don't want the Morrigan thinking I'm referring to her entitities. ;)

[mothwench]

what language does the word Morrigu or Morrigan come from? is it an english word, or does it have celtic (irish?) origin? is there anything known regarding the etymology, specifically of the first sylables mori(g) ?
and is there any more mention in the book about Ernmas and Etarlam ?

[Mab]

I have heard that The Morrigu is a title used to refer to the three collectively: Morrigan, Badb, and Macha. I haven't done enough research into Celtic mythology yet, so....

[Phi]

Great post and very informative as usual. I have looked at much information from your links. You are very learned and I appreciate your sharing of your knowledge!


BTW: :jamsessio :ringaroun :whistle: :boquet: :cheers: :fpipesmok :havinapar :woot: :yourock: :thewave:

:megaphone Happy Birthday!

[banondraig]

what language does the word Morrigu or Morrigan come from? is it an english word, or does it have celtic (irish?) origin? is there anything known regarding the etymology, specifically of the first sylables mori(g) ?
and is there any more mention in the book about Ernmas and Etarlam ?


it's old irish. there is a theory that it means "Great Queen of Phantoms", from mor= large, great. i'd never heard of either "Morrigan" or "Morrigu" being titles as opposed to proper names before, but it makes sense as those names/titles are usually written with "the" in front of them, at least in modern usage.

[RubyRose]

it's old irish. there is a theory that it means "Great Queen of Phantoms", from mor= large, great. i'd never heard of either "Morrigan" or "Morrigu" being titles as opposed to proper names before, but it makes sense as those names/titles are usually written with "the" in front of them, at least in modern usage.

I've heard of 'The Morrigan' used as a collective name for Morrigan, Macha and Badh. Though I've never heard of Anu/Danu being related to The Morrigan or Morrigan in general.

[Bliss]

*snippet taken from The Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend by Miranda Green*

Morrigan ('Phantom Queen') belongs to the group of Irish war-goddesses. Others include Nemhain, the Badbh and Macha. They all share the characteristics of occurring in either single or triple form and in combining a sexual and war role. These deities do not engage in battle themselves, but they affect armies psychologically, by means of their fearsome presence. To an extent, the different goddesses in the group are interchangeable. For example, both the Badbh and the Morrigan shape-change to ravens or crows in the field of battle.

In addition to her war attributes the, the Morrigan possesses powerful sexual and fertility symbolism. This is evident in her advances as a young girl, towards Cu Chulainn. The Morrigan's sexual/maternal role is additionally reflected in an Irish place-name, 'the paps of the Morrigan'. This combination of a war/sexual function is common to serveral of the insular goddesses: it occurs in the character of the Macha, and the euhemerized queen/goddess Medb of Connacht also possesses this dual role.

Danu is the mother of the Irish divine race, the Tuatha De Danann, who bear her name 'the people of the goddess Danu'.

Hope this shed some light on this for you.

~Bliss

:flowers:

[Morr]

Being a daughter of The Morrigan, I'm pretty sure that she would NOT like to share a title with ANY other Goddess out there :lol:

[RubyRose]

Being a daughter of The Morrigan, I'm pretty sure that she would NOT like to share a title with ANY other Goddess out there :lol:

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Bliss, thanks for that post, but it was all stuff I already knew. I actually posted this in hopes of sparking some interesting debate. :smile:

Morr and Ruby, I too prefer to think they were separate deities as I'm a hard polytheist, but what do you think of that snippit from the Book of Invasions, where it does actually state that the Morrígan's name was Annan?

And actually as for Danu there isn't much evidence for her existence. The actual name Danu never occurs in any Irish source itself. One gets that name by assuming that Dannan is the genetive form of the nominative Dannan. This is based on comparison to the genetive form of other n stem nouns such as the genetive from of Ériu being Érenn. However this only rarely found, usually in dé Dannan and further usually is masculine as in the patronymic mac Danann meic Bratha, Danu son of Brath.

Danu herself never appears anywhere in the Book of Invasions, which is our earliest source material for the Tuatha dé Dannan, compiled by Christian scribes between the ninth and twelfth centuries. The closest we come to her name is Danand, daughter of Delbaeth, and father by him of Brian, Iuchar, and Iucharba (who alternately are said to be the sons of Brigid, which then begs the question are Danand and Brighid the same goddess, or were the scribes just really confused?). Now Brian, Iuchar, and Iucharba are said to be the tri dé Danand and it is from them (not Danu) that the Tuatha dé Dannan took their name. It should be pointed out though, that elswhere in the same work the tri dé Danand are said to be Triall, Brian, and Cet, sons of Bres. Now we can presume that again they are sons of Danand, however we should also remember that it is generally said that Bres was husband to Brighid and that Brian was one of them (again leading you to question if Brighid, whose name is also frequently said to be a title, is Danand). There is a further passage that states that the tri dé Danand are actually the sons of the Morrígan and that her other name was Danand, further complicated by the fact that Danand and the Morrígan are said in the same work to be sisters, both daughters of Earnmhas

Now we get to the Paps of Anu in Kerry, which I mentioned in my first post. Many linguists have assumed that Anu like Danu is the genetive form a n-stem noun, however again there is no clear-cut evidence of this as the name Anu is never actually mentioned in our source material. The Dá chich nAnann are related in the Book of Invasions, not to an Anu but to an Anand. Anand is also said to be the daughter of the aforementioned Earnmhas (which if she is mother to so many goddesses, why is she never mentioned when people discuss Irish deities?). She is (of course) later mentioned in the Book of Invasions to be one and the same as the Morrígan and Danand. The conflation with the Morrígan is the phrase/sentence I originally posted, and the conflation with Danand is this; "from whose supplementary name 'Danand' the Two Breasts of Anann in Luachair are called, as well as the Tuatha Dé Danann".

So this either leads us to believe that the lore that came down was either very confused and jumbled by the Christian scribes who wrote it, or that Danand, Anand, and the Morrígan (and possibly even Brighid, if you consider what I posted above about the fact that she is mentioned to be the mother of Brian, Iuchar, and Iucharba by Tuirean, which according the Book of Invasions was another name for Delbaeth, supossed father of those three with Danand). Or that in fact all of these Goddesses were in fact the same Goddess. This could be attributed to local variances in the name, such as between Danand and Anand. And also by the fact that the name of the Morrígan which means either Great Queen or Phantom Queen, though there are other suggested etymologies, including one that suggests that the Mor part of her name refers not to great but to the sea (and Brighid whose name means Exalted One, not fiery arrow as was formerly believed) is more than likely a title, not a name. If you look at it that way, than the Morrígan could easily be an epithet for this Danand/Anand.

[Morr]

then even better - The Morrigan is the mother Goddess AND war Goddess - I bet this would spiff up her ego ;)

[Morgandria]

I was taught that The Morrigan had nine aspects, one of which was named Anu. Whether or not Anu and Danu are the same being, I couldn't say.

[Seren_]

Now we get to the Paps of Anu in Kerry, which I mentioned in my first post. Many linguists have assumed that Anu like Danu is the genetive form a n-stem noun, however again there is no clear-cut evidence of this as the name Anu is never actually mentioned in our source material. The Dá chich nAnann are related in the Book of Invasions, not to an Anu but to an Anand. Anand is also said to be the daughter of the aforementioned Earnmhas (which if she is mother to so many goddesses, why is she never mentioned when people discuss Irish deities?). She is (of course) later mentioned in the Book of Invasions to be one and the same as the Morrígan and Danand.

The Irish were obsessed with genealogy in the middle ages; it was a way of increasing your own social status by associating yourself more important people (Irish law being heavily invested in the idea of your kin). So basically they weren't shy of making things up if it suited them, especially if the scribe made the king look good and all that. This extended to placenames as well; you backed up your genealogical claims by dotting the name about in the landscape your family was associated with.

It's difficult to take any mention of genealogies at face value because there could be so many underlying political reasons for it, contemporary to the time of writing. They might not be relevant later on, so different genealogies and "so and so was the mother of..." crop up instead. You're left with a huge mishmash of everyone being someone else's uncle, brother and dad it all gets very confusing. And it makes interpreting the meaning of it all a headache too.

[Seren_]

Even the Tuatha De Danaan seemed to have been a little scared of the Morrigan. She never really seems to have been one of them, and I've heard that some academics are beginning to question whether she's really a member of the Tuatha De Danaan at all; she's almost always portrayed as being less involved in the Tuatha's business and politics, more peripheral than central to it.

[Nantonos]

what language does the word Morrigu or Morrigan come from? is it an english word, or does it have celtic (irish?) origin? is there anything known regarding the etymology, specifically of the first sylables mori(g) ?


I thought the etymology was Mor - Rigan where Mor is Old Irish (and indeed, modern Irish and modern Scotish Gaelic) for 'Great/Large/Mighty' - as seen in for example the english word claymore, Scottish Gaelic claidheamh mór, large sword - and Rigana is British/Gaulish for 'Queen' (as also seen in Welsh Rhiannon, from Rigatona) becoming Rígain in Old Irish.


Great in Brittish/Gaulish would be any of magio-, ollo-, perhaps trexso- (in the sense of strong), uertamo- (in the sense of excellent), etc. So its an Old Irish word not a Brittish one.

There is a 'mor' in Gaulish - but it means 'of the sea'. As used in are-mori-cii'those who live by the sea' which became Armorica, modern Brittany. Hmm interesting there is a personal name attested, Moririgis, meaning 'sea king'. But this becomes muir in Old Irish and môr in Welsh.

[mothwench]

I thought the etymology was Mor - Rigan where Mor is Old Irish (and indeed, modern Irish and modern Scotish Gaelic) for 'Great/Large/Mighty' - as seen in for example the english word claymore, Scottish Gaelic claidheamh mór, large sword - and Rigana is British/Gaulish for 'Queen' (as also seen in Welsh Rhiannon, from Rigatona) becoming Rígain in Old Irish.
.
i seeee... :uhhuhuh: isn't it a bit odd though, for a word to have each sylable come from a different ermm... culture? (mor- old irish, rigana- british/gaulish)
and on that note... british/gaulish? :huh: i thought it was british = old english = anglo-saxon, and gaulish = continental celtic?

[Nantonos]

i seeee... :uhhuhuh: isn't it a bit odd though, for a word to have each sylable come from a different ermm... culture? (mor- old irish, rigana- british/gaulish)

Which became rígain in old Irish, so both are from the same language (which is why it doesn't end in an 'a').

and on that note... british/gaulish? :huh:[/quoote]

Yes, there is no evidence that British was any different from Gaulish. Both continental celtic, p-Celtic languages.

[QUOTE=mothwench]i thought it was british = old english = anglo-saxon,

No. British and English are not the same thing. British is a Celtic language spoken in Britain. It was gradually displaced by Saxon, Anglian, Jutish and other Germanic languages, such that the south-east corner of Britain became Angle-land, England, Angle-terre. Which then spread northwards into Northumbria and west towards the midland, leaving Cornwall, Wales, Cumbria and Lothian as the only Celtic speaking areas.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

The Irish were obsessed with genealogy in the middle ages; it was a way of increasing your own social status by associating yourself more important people (Irish law being heavily invested in the idea of your kin). So basically they weren't shy of making things up if it suited them, especially if the scribe made the king look good and all that. This extended to placenames as well; you backed up your genealogical claims by dotting the name about in the landscape your family was associated with.

It's difficult to take any mention of genealogies at face value because there could be so many underlying political reasons for it, contemporary to the time of writing. They might not be relevant later on, so different genealogies and "so and so was the mother of..." crop up instead. You're left with a huge mishmash of everyone being someone else's uncle, brother and dad it all gets very confusing. And it makes interpreting the meaning of it all a headache too.

Definitely. The whole geneology of the Morrigan gets even more confusing than what I posted. I just left out the bits I didn't think were pertinent. I think it might be an interesting concept if in fact the Morrigan and Danu (though I question whether this goddess actually existed - I suppose she could be considered to be the modernized name for Danand) were the same goddess. I actually left out a lot of info that would suggest that Brighde might also be one and the same as Danu/Anu.

And Morr, I liked your comment. Found it quite amusing. Quite the ego-booster eh? :yayah:

[Morr]

And Morr, I liked your comment. Found it quite amusing. Quite the ego-booster eh? :yayah:

I'm a daughter of The Morrigan!
I cant help but boost her ego! When her ego is boosted, my ego is boosted!
:D

[Seren_]

I think it might be an interesting concept if in fact the Morrigan and Danu (though I question whether this goddess actually existed - I suppose she could be considered to be the modernized name for Danand) were the same goddess. I actually left out a lot of info that would suggest that Brighde might also be one and the same as Danu/Anu.

:uhhuhuh:


I love your sig, btw :D

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Thank you Seren. Mothwench created it for me as a birtday present. :bigredgri

My son is so cute.

[whitewater]

ive always wondered if the morrigan and danu were the same. its kind of controversial among my friends.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

You have any points to add to the topic as to why you think so? I'd love to get some more input.