OMG!!! Oregon GIs stop torture. Ordered to look away!!!

[Twig]

I place this here because it is not political opinion...this is TRUTH! And people the Truth ain't pretty!!!

--------------------------------------------------------
WARNING! Pictures in the article are graphic!!!

Link to original article (http://www.oregonlive.com/special/oregonian/iraq/index.ssf?/base/front_page/109196614530740.xml)

{From the Oregonian 8/8/04}

Ordered to just walk away

By MIKE FRANCIS

BAGHDAD -- The national guardsman peering through the long-range scope of his rifle was startled by what he saw unfolding in the walled compound below.

From his post several stories above ground level, he watched as men in plainclothes beat blindfolded and bound prisoners in the enclosed grounds of the Iraqi Interior Ministry.

He immediately radioed for help. (...)

But in a move that frustrated and infuriated the guardsmen, Hendrickson's superior officers told him to return the prisoners to their abusers and immediately withdraw. It was June 29 -- Iraq's first official day as a sovereign country since the U.S.-led invasion.

Major snippage by Xentor: follow link to read the rest.

Stephen Engelberg of The Oregonian contributed to this report.

Mike Francis: 503-294-5955; mikefrancis@news.oregonian.com
-----------------------------------------
I sit in shock. These soldiers are from MY area. The Sunset patch they wear is the same one I wore 10 years ago.

Now my old battalion leaving in 1 week for training and Feb.? Welcome to Iraq.

I have been deeply touched and honored by Marcus to be invited to the call-up Formation and ceremonies when they depart. JUST saw, my old battery captain is now the commander of the whole battalion. Won't he be surprised to see me there!!?

Gods I am so scared for their safety.


Twig

[Twig]

Time was when a topic of this import would elicit a response from over 3/4 of the entire community. :sadeyes: Such is not the case anymore.

Soldiers going to war are buried (in the threads) but the cute little fluffy kittys have all the energy they could ever want. :fpompoms :geez: Excuse my caustic wit but I buried one today.

As he closes the cave door behind him he mumbles..."I think I need to meditate on the homoginization that has taken over here."

Peace

[Radocs]

Yes, we are all morally deficient for not replying to your post. :rolleyes:

[Twig]

ADMIN.

PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD AND MY NAME FROM THE MEMBERSHIP IMMEDIATELY

Sincerely,
Rev./R. Twig Jones

[Aidron]

This is war, what did you people expect? Honorable death? Friendly handshakes? Bush wanted it, we've got it now, get over it. I'm so tired of hearing people whine about what sort of immoral activity is going on due to this. War has never been anything that is blanketed in pristine morals of goodness and righteousness, where did this delusion come from?

Oh, and by the way, you shouldn't post the entire article, it's against forum rules.

[Xander67]

Twig,

Please do not take the opinion of one to represent the opinion of the Majority...

I am just as outraged as you are, it is 9:08 PM and I am just seeing this thread.
with reguard to Radoc's Post... I assure you he does not speak for the Majority..

No need to leave becuase of the disrespectfull comment of one member.

[Xander67]

Oh, and by the way, you shouldn't post the entire article, it's against forum rules.

I think Twig is well aware of the rules, and the conditions on which entire articles CAN be posted.

[Xander67]

Yes, we are all morally deficient for not replying to your post. :rolleyes:

speak for your self sir!

[Calyx]

I don't condone torture during war, but it does happen unfortunately. :meanhead:
The only saving grace I can think of is at least it isn't our boys doing the torturing. This does not excuse it, of course.

[violet rain]

WOW!!! those pic's were awful and sad I really don't know wha else to say it just really is awful I really don't understand how "people" can be that way just beating others and enjoying there screams and getting a kick out of watching people die, it just really hurts to think about it, and while some people are like yah thats what they get and stuff like that its sickening

[Yasmine Galenorn]

Time was when a topic of this import would elicit a response from over 3/4 of the entire community. :sadeyes: Such is not the case anymore.

Soldiers going to war are buried (in the threads) but the cute little fluffy kittys have all the energy they could ever want. :fpompoms :geez: Excuse my caustic wit but I buried one today.

As he closes the cave door behind him he mumbles..."I think I need to meditate on the homoginization that has taken over here."

Peace

Yes, I DO care more about my missing cat than I do this story. War is horrendous. War is brutal. War is full of this crap and that's the nature of it. Do I condone it? No. But does it surprise me? No. If you're going to go to war, then you have to expect to run into it because people are a brutal bunch, and frankly, the prisoners over there have every chance of turning out to be just as cruel as their captors. Middle eastern philosophy doesn't necessarily follow the 'peace and love' route that so many people here seem to espouse.

Whether or not this war was a good idea is moot at this point. The fact is we are there, and we are going to see this behavior as a fallout, like it or not. And our government has no room to talk on it considering what our own soldiers did. If we were to go housecleaning on torturers, we'd wipe out half the planet. Do I dwell on it? No. Because it's a sad reality and after I do what I can, I refuse to spend any more of my energy focusing on a part of human nature that I can't possibly change in others--the only change comes when people and/or countries are ready to make that change. Apparently, they are not. I would rather put my energy where it's going to do some good, be it helping wayward animals, tortured animals, hungry people in our own country, or women who are victims of domestic abuse.

I concern myself with my family's safety first, both two and four legged. Period.

Yasmine

[Xander67]

Did you ever find the cat??

By the way, Twig, you might find this encouraging...

The American Bar Association feels the same way you do.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040809/ap_on_re_us/lawyers_torture_4

[arienh]

OMG that is unbelievable. I don't even know what to say. All I keep thinking about is what the prisoners were thinking when the US soldiers handed them back to their abusers.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I just saw this thread now and although it makes me sick to my stomache it doesnt surprise me, I am just left speachless really.


Twig-I enjoy all your posts they are always "make you think"ers, and I wish that you would stay!

[Chibi-Fallon]

I heard about this on MPR, maybe a few days ago, I forget when. It’s not something I would normally reply to because... well... what do you say exactly?
It’s horrible, but at the same time it isn’t our country anymore. How many other countries are probably doing the same thing... how many others that we’re friendly with even...By failing to make sure things like this wouldn’t happen it’s just another reason we’ve failed in Iraq.
I think people forget that destroyed countries sometimes need some hand holding. Especially when they’re already in a volatile area. But the US government doesn’t want to do that or it’ll seem like we’re stuck there and that’s not good for getting re-elected.
But as much as this worries me, honestly, I think Sudan is the bigger crisis at the moment.

And I like you Twig. Even though I don't really know you. Don't leave. Someone will always be around to listen here. Even if they're like myself and need to sit and think on it for a bit.

[Starpixie]

I read it earlier, I just didn't know what to say. Don't go though!

[tangerine_smile]

This is war, what did you people expect? Honorable death? Friendly handshakes? Bush wanted it, we've got it now, get over it. I'm so tired of hearing people whine about what sort of immoral activity is going on due to this. </snip>.

thats the funny thing about it. the only one who seemed to want this war, IS bush. in a way, it's as though the american people were not even given a chance as to weather or not they wanted to have this war. and so when you think about it, we all have a right to be ticked off about this. war was imposed on us. there are probably many different ways that you can send a dictator like saddam on his way..but it was bush who insisted on this route.
and so now were all forced to have a war. but must we like it too?
dear, i can understand if your tiried of the complaining, but if no one says anything, then nothing may ever change -_- .

and to twig, all i can say is: thank you for posting this thread. it helped me to remember that everyone is family, and that we must look out for everyone and anyone who is going through an injustice..even if it's just by speaking about it. thank you. :)

**p.s, please dont leave :) *

[Erebus]

A world where people care more about cats than other people is a world that deserves all the war and pain it gets. It's a world where sons and daughters do not deserve anything better than a death in a barren desert far from home and family. Give it to the cats, the humans have obviously stopped giving a crap about anything beyond the scope of their individual selfish existences.

Twig's right. And I'm disgusted.

[Erebus]

Of course, to be fair, I'm not sure this topic could be expected to get much more attention than it has on a board where some 75% of the members are in high school.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Of course, to be fair, I'm not sure this topic could be expected to get much more attention than it has on a board where some 75% of the members are in high school.

That's a little unfair... half my school day is spent reading the paper.

[tangerine_smile]

A world where people care more about cats than other people is a world that deserves all the war and pain it gets. It's a world where sons and daughters do not deserve anything better than a death in a barren desert far from home and family. Give it to the cats, the humans have obviously stopped giving a crap about anything beyond the scope of their individual selfish existences.

Twig's right. And I'm disgusted.
you tell it like it is :yourock: . though, i dont think anyone really ever deserves war. i can understand in a way why people might not care...there are so many different things going on in there own life as it is, that sometimes it can be hard to look up and see other people who are going through pain. :(. it's hard to help others you dont know, but it's one of the most rewarding things in the whole world, i think :).

[Tsuchimaru]

Of course, to be fair, I'm not sure this topic could be expected to get much more attention than it has on a board where some 75% of the members are in high school.

I'm in high school. What's you point?

[Hope]

wow -- i just saw this

and as an idaho girl -- i feel like oregon is kinda us ya know

shakes head -- amazes me that people still think they know what is really happening, or what it is really all about over there

love
hope

[Radocs]

A world where people care more about cats than other people is a world that deserves all the war and pain it gets. It's a world where sons and daughters do not deserve anything better than a death in a barren desert far from home and family. Give it to the cats, the humans have obviously stopped giving a crap about anything beyond the scope of their individual selfish existences.

Twig's right. And I'm disgusted.

Beg your pardon, but are you saying the human race is irredeemable based on the number of replies to a post on the internet? Please say No. If you are, stop and think about that for a second.

I'm not sure what sort of repsonse would satisfy you and Twig. Maybe if I post a bunch of sad faces? Have you considered that it's possible to feel revulsion about this topic without replying to the thread? The topic is a horrible thing and there's no question about it. It's despicable.

Complaining that not enough people are replying to a thread about it is downright irritating, however, and is not a basis for giving the world over to our feline friends.

[Cinnamon Girl]

Beg your pardon, but are you saying the human race is irredeemable based on the number of replies to a post on the internet? Please say No. If you are, stop and think about that for a second.

I'm not sure what sort of repsonse would satisfy you and Twig. Maybe if I post a bunch of sad faces? Have you considered that it's possible to feel revulsion about this topic without replying to the thread? The topic is a horrible thing and there's no question about it. It's despicable.

Complaining that not enough people are replying to a thread about it is downright irritating, however, and is not a basis for giving the world over to our feline friends.

My feelings exactly. I read the article Twig posted, looked at the pictures, was saddened and disgusted. I did not support this war and am dismayed (to say the least) at what's transpired these last several months and at what we continue to learn.

Perhaps the lack of comments in this thread was due to the depth of its impact, not the apathetic nature of MW members - don't be so quick to judge.

[flar7]

yep, when I saw it, I was upset by the lack of notice in mainstream media. But what could I post? OMG? I had nothing to post that would not be statement of blame on regimes or on the apathy of man, that would then lead to conservative elements posting and cross blaming, and there ya go, a serious subject broken down into bickering over Bush and his war.

I will speak up this november when I vote.

[Aidron]

A world where people care more about cats than other people is a world that deserves all the war and pain it gets. It's a world where sons and daughters do not deserve anything better than a death in a barren desert far from home and family. Give it to the cats, the humans have obviously stopped giving a crap about anything beyond the scope of their individual selfish existences.

Twig's right. And I'm disgusted.


Right? That is a matter of opinion, so let's not get into that.

Disgusted? You bet I am, but by you moreso than this.

You place the importance of our race above all others, and it is of course survival of the fittest, but do you really think yourself so important or any other human being that we should be spared pain, grief, or care only for ourselves? Pain and suffering are merely more opportunities to grow. While many of the American people may have not wished this war, there is a little thing called voicing your opinion. Don't go to war, sit home and protest when called to. How many did that? Oh right.... none I can recall. They went freely, thus they made their choice and their fate is their own. No one can change it or alter it unless those who walk the path do so first. Mutiny if you have to, it doesn't really matter, but do not whine about war when there is no draft instated. If we all stood firm this war would simply not occur, no war would if everyone refused to fight. Won't happen, but that's what it would take.

Pets are very much family to some people, and would you have someone care less for their family than some random man or woman going to war? If you expect anyone to do that you are coming across as very foolish. It is no crime to care, and simply because others care about some things more than do does not equate them as being immoral or less of a human being. Yasmine, for example, loves her cats to death. She sees them daily, they make her smile, and in turn they take care of one another's souls. Do you honestly think she or any other pet owner would not care more for a living creature that does this for them as opposed to someone they have never met?

Yes, humanity does deserve the pain and suffering it is recieving, but not for caring for different things, but because of attitudes like your own and the asinine immaturity that apparently is present throughout every country on Earth. We bring this mess upon ourselves because of our hate, not because we care. Your pious nonsense and disgruntled nature is why there are wars, people become saturated in negativity over the slightest thing until it builds, rage manifests, and before you know it you're invading some country for reasons you may soon forget all because you are festering with anger and simply trying to release it.

As for it not getting a great deal of attention because 'supposedly' 75% of the members are in high school, look around at some of the age surveys. Most of the regulars are above 25, and age nor grade status has anything to do with maturity of soul, wisdom, or intellect, so kindly keep your agist comments off this board or else someone may tell you where you can put 'em.

:rolleyes:

[GaiaDea]

My feelings exactly. I read the article Twig posted, looked at the pictures, was saddened and disgusted. I did not support this war and am dismayed (to say the least) at what's transpired these last several months and at what we continue to learn.

Perhaps the lack of comments in this thread was due to the depth of its impact, not the apathetic nature of MW members - don't be so quick to judge.

Ditto.
Personally, I feel that we had no business over there at all. I said so publically the day of 9/11. We got pushed into war first over emotion, and then over a single person's political agenda. It hasn't made any difference there to the common people except to make their lives more dangerous. This area has been at war since before recorded history. Who are "we" to think "we" can fix the situation? (understand that I am including only those who were supportive of the actions as "we")

War is a nasty business. When you come down to it, there really is only one rule: Kill before you are killed. This tends to bring the very worst behavior out of any who were even mildly tempted to kick someone in the guts for killing their friends. Is it right? Sometimes right and wrong are situational. However, if the nations involved have pledged to abide by the "Rules of War", then abuses should be stopped and punished. Immediately upon discovery. And said military organizations should be sure that all their personnel know the rules they will be held to. What more could anyone do?

The only person who can change an individual is the individual themselves. We can point the way, be a good example, and do our best to provide materials with which the individual can educate themselves. You cannot force someone to change, they must want to.
Societies are made up of individuals, and societies have the type of government they will accept, or they would rebel. A society in rebellion against a current form of government should be left alone to sort it out unless they ask for help. Any other action results in the type of mess we have now.

I am not unsympathetic to what is and has happened in the middle east. I simply think our (Bush's) meddling has made a bad situation worse.
I agonize for the mothers who's children are missing or dead. I hurt for those who are treated with barbarity of all sorts. I personally cannot help these people. I DID speak out publically and forcefully against these actions. I continue to do so. I also feel I am lecturing to a brick wall.


I hope this was enough response to satisfy any who think I am apathetic or unconcerned about this topic.

If I offended....sorry, I have opinions, and I respect your right to hold an opposing or conflicting view.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

The only person who can change an individual is the individual themselves. We can point the way, be a good example, and do our best to provide materials with which the individual can educate themselves. You cannot force someone to change, they must want to. I am not unsympathetic to what is and has happened in the middle east. I simply think our (Bush's) meddling has made a bad situation worse.
I agonize for the mothers who's children are missing or dead. I hurt for those who are treated with barbarity of all sorts. I personally cannot help these people. I DID speak out publically and forcefully against these actions. I continue to do so. I also feel I am lecturing to a brick wall.

Very good answer. And yes, I too am appalled by this sort of behavior, and I speak out and encourage my readers to vote and I vote and so does my husband, and we do what we can. But aside from that, I spend my energy helping those who will most benefit by it. That means family--four or two footed, friends, and the causes for which I KNOW I can do some good. I refuse to get mired in a wallow of depression over the behaviors that have existed since long before we had paper and pen to record them. War, and atrocity, have always been with us. And I very much fear they always will.

And yes, I generally prefer animals over people. Animals tend to be more honest.

Yasmine

[Aidron]

Animals tend to be more honest.



Not to mention far more tolerable and sanitary, but perhaps I am just biased. :hrmm:

[Holly Ariadna]

As for it not getting a great deal of attention because 'supposedly' 75% of the members are in high school, look around at some of the age surveys. Most of the regulars are above 25, and age nor grade statue has anything to do with maturity of soul, wisdom, or intellect, so kindly keep your agist comments off this board or else someone may tell you where you can put 'em.

:rolleyes:

Thank you! :smile:


I'm really disgusted by the article. :ack: The photos are awful...

[pawnman]

I know I'm going to get some hate responses for this one, but:

Does anyone else find it really humorous that the Iraqis pitched such a fit about some (by comparison, minor) behavior like this on behalf of the American forces, and then when we let the Iraqis take over, this is how they treat their own citizens? Seems to me these guys would have been better off in Abu Grahib. Sure, they'd be humiliated, but at least those guys weren't beaten too badly. And there was a medical staff at Abu Grahib.

I just find it ironic that the people protesting our treatment of the prisoners are the same ones doing this.

[WandererInGray]

I know I'm going to get some hate responses for this one, but:

Does anyone else find it really humorous that the Iraqis pitched such a fit about some (by comparison, minor) behavior like this on behalf of the American forces, and then when we let the Iraqis take over, this is how they treat their own citizens? Seems to me these guys would have been better off in Abu Grahib. Sure, they'd be humiliated, but at least those guys weren't beaten too badly. And there was a medical staff at Abu Grahib.

I just find it ironic that the people protesting our treatment of the prisoners are the same ones doing this.

*shakes head* Not from me you won't pawnman. It's hypocrisy at its highest.

As for the shame on you. :rolleyes: Whatever. I do have better things to do in my life (including working against the war in a practical manner) than sit around expressing moral outrage with a lot of !!!!!!! on an website.

[Aidron]

I know I'm going to get some hate responses for this one, but:

Does anyone else find it really humorous that the Iraqis pitched such a fit about some (by comparison, minor) behavior like this on behalf of the American forces, and then when we let the Iraqis take over, this is how they treat their own citizens? Seems to me these guys would have been better off in Abu Grahib. Sure, they'd be humiliated, but at least those guys weren't beaten too badly. And there was a medical staff at Abu Grahib.

I just find it ironic that the people protesting our treatment of the prisoners are the same ones doing this.


I find it hysterical as well. This sort of mindset is typical of mankind, regardless of country, race, or religion. Bullshit is everywhere.

[pawnman]

*shakes head* Not from me you won't pawnman. It's hypocrisy at its highest.

As for the shame on you. :rolleyes: Whatever. I do have better things to do in my life (including working against the war in a practical manner) than sit around expressing moral outrage with a lot of !!!!!!! on an website.


Yeah, I think Twig really went overboard when no one replied within, what, an hour? Not all of us are on the boards 24/7. Not to mention, some of us (like me) almost never come into "Just Talk". I bet if Twig posted this in the political forum, there would be more responses.

[docdoo]

Actually, the thread was up there for 16 hours before it was replied to.

Having said that Im going to chime in on this too. I can definatly see Twig's point on this, as a race we have become more and more apathetic. The man buried a soldier (my condolances Twig if you're reading this) who presumeably died in the war. Being in that state of grief he posted an article, granted he never told anyone about what happened that morning, but it IS quite the statement when more energy is given to kittens than to our sons and daughters in the desert.

Im guilty of this as well...I looked at the thread and decided to hold on it because I was cleaning and couldn't address it properly. Perhaps what Twig is/was looking for was knowledge that someone cares.

I *do* see energy request threads all over that pertain to our own isloated existences but I'm trying to remember when was the last time I saw one asking for a group effort of energy to be sent to our soldiers who are right now, living in the desert. To my knowledge (and I may be wrong here) there hasn't been any recently.

On the other side of the coin I also understand the drive to 'Care for our own'. That somewhat selfish desire to put *our* people/pets over the bigger picture.

Yeah, this is a sad statement on many levels.

[Nighthawk]

I just saw this... I have few words that can express... but, I have a real problem with this war. Finish it up and get out.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

I *do* see energy request threads all over that pertain to our own isloated existences but I'm trying to remember when was the last time I saw one asking for a group effort of energy to be sent to our soldiers who are right now, living in the desert. To my knowledge (and I may be wrong here) there hasn't been any recently.

On the other side of the coin I also understand the drive to 'Care for our own'. That somewhat selfish desire to put *our* people/pets over the bigger picture.

Yeah, this is a sad statement on many levels.

My question is what the heck is so selfish about taking care of the people we know the first? I have no patience for people who let their own family/friends they supposedly love languish while they work for the 'general' amorphous humankind. You start on a small level and work outward. Even Mother Theresa walked among the populace and helped individuals. And if you don't help those you love first, what kind of parent/sibling/etc. are you?

And that brings to light the fact that frankly, a lot of these people we are talking about don't want our help. They don't like Americans, they don't appreciate our interference, and some of them will turn around and shoot us as soon as look at us. I'd rather know where my help is going. I'd rather work to stop the injustice in our own system first so we can better help the world afterward.

There are many causes in the world. And just because one doesn't rant and rave over something like this story, doesn't mean that one is immune to what's being reported, or that one doesn't care. But take care of our own backyard first? Yep, you bet I will. There are a lot of hungry people in this country. There are people who are being shafted by our own laws and injustice. There are so many needs in the world that you have to find what best fits your ability to help and go from there.

Yasmine

[Yasmine Galenorn]

I know I'm going to get some hate responses for this one, but:

Does anyone else find it really humorous that the Iraqis pitched such a fit about some (by comparison, minor) behavior like this on behalf of the American forces, and then when we let the Iraqis take over, this is how they treat their own citizens? Seems to me these guys would have been better off in Abu Grahib. Sure, they'd be humiliated, but at least those guys weren't beaten too badly. And there was a medical staff at Abu Grahib.

I just find it ironic that the people protesting our treatment of the prisoners are the same ones doing this.

Yep...I thought of this too. And a lot of women over there are a lot worse off now that Saddam is gone. Life under a secular government was a lot less dangerous for them than life will be under religious rule and that's what's happening.

Yasmine

[Semele]

OK, so now lets turn the thread back around and if you have thoughts related to the article then post them. No need to carry the seed of bitterness further. We are interested in and respond to a thread or we don't...it is a huge community with many different attitudes.

[Shanti]

The only reason I seldom respond to threads like this is that, when it comes to our wars...I just cant take it anymore. I dont want to spend the entire war time, torn up and crying all the friggen time. I here about it on the news, in the papers and all over the internet. I have been emotionaly drained by it all and I just cant take it anymore. So if I dont post...its to save my own friggen sanity.

[Sleet]

I just find it ironic that the people protesting our treatment of the prisoners are the same ones doing this.

They share the same nationality. That doesn't make them the same people.

[WrathofCirce]

Time was when a topic of this import would elicit a response from over 3/4 of the entire community. :sadeyes: Such is not the case anymore.

Soldiers going to war are buried (in the threads) but the cute little fluffy kittys have all the energy they could ever want. :fpompoms :geez: Excuse my caustic wit but I buried one today.

As he closes the cave door behind him he mumbles..."I think I need to meditate on the homoginization that has taken over here."

Peace

Dude, give it some time. Most of us weren't up at 5am. I would have responded much sooner but my computer was having maintenance done yesterday and I was offline all day.
I think that kitties are simple, easy topics. People do not want to deal with issues such as this because it has the potential of complicating their simple and easy lives. Shattering their fragile false securities and illusions.
Unfortunately, I think that this sort of thing is much more prevalent than anyone wants to admit. One of the problems of bringing freedom to a people not used to freedom is that they have not learned autonomy and responsibility. Hussein had tight reins on the people and created order through brutality. The world looks at Iraq through a microscope, so we are under preassure to show them that Democracy is working in Iraq. Which, some of us realize that it isn't. Most of us, however, want to believe what our government is telling us. Fact is, they are calling it Democracy. Putting a nice face on it, but in reality brutality is still prevalent in Iraq.
When USSR fell in, there was utter caos in the countries that formed the former communist empire. It was a publicity nightmare for the U.S. at the time. These countries are still going through a period of learning and growth and have not yet learned to govern themselves effectively under the umbrella of Democracy, but they are making great progress. It is very hard to go from an iron grip to freedom. We have had hundreds of years of practice. With that said, I think we need to teach Iraq how to set up a Democratic system of government and then step back and let them go through the growing pains associated with change. It is wrong to allow this behind the scenes brutality that puts a false face on the progress being made in Iraq. Things will get worse before they get better. It's not really Democracy if we are beating them into submitting to our way of government. It is time to walk away and hope for the best.

[Ahautenites]

I'm only responding because of the goading in Twig's second post.

I am apathetic. I freely admit that. There are times when I see things and it brings me to the verge of tears, but there's very little emotion left in me to feel anything when I see atrocities like this anymore. I've been desensitized to it by the media. I'm mostly dead inside. These things mostly no longer affect me at all. This is war. There is no glamour in it, and very little in the way of honor. All the weeping in the world has not changed that and will not change that. As others have said, I will not dwell on those things I cannot change, but I will express myself by my vote, and by more than that, should events warrant it.

And for everyone else who thinks Twig will leave, rest easy. He "left" last year before Mad Mad House aired on television and yet here he is posting again that he's "leaving." He'll be back, if he leaves at all.

[Tsuchimaru]

I am apathetic. I freely admit that. There are times when I see things and it brings me to the verge of tears, but there's very little emotion left in me to feel anything when I see atrocities like this anymore. I've been desensitized to it by the media. I'm mostly dead inside. These things mostly no longer affect me at all. This is war. There is no glamour in it, and very little in the way of honor. All the weeping in the world has not changed that and will not change that. As others have said, I will not dwell on those things I cannot change, but I will express myself by my vote, and by more than that, should events warrant it.


Agreed! :D

[mol]

ADMIN.

PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD AND MY NAME FROM THE MEMBERSHIP IMMEDIATELY

Sincerely,
Rev./R. Twig Jones
Dont be a goob, my friend.

Number 1. You know we dont delete user profiles. You know this! You have been here forever.

Number 2. You are not leaving. You love us. Go be pissed off for a bit and we will see you when you get back.


Everyone else...LEAVE MY FRIEND TWIG ALONE! :p

[Gwenhwyfar]

He aint going anywhere....**ties Twig to the MW Sofa..:thumbsup:.there, now your stuck, like it or not!

[Erebus]

You place the importance of our race above all others

Actually, I do. And I place the importance of the race as a whole above the importance of any individual, regardless of which set of invisible lines he was born in.

Nobody else does. Which is why I say we may as well give the world over to the cats, since they're getting all our energy instead of the youths dying for us to have the gas to drive to the vet to get our cats healed. When people stop caring about the human race as a whole, it's time for us to go extinct. Because the cats sure as hell aren't on their little cat messageboards typing out energy requests for their humans.

[Aidron]

Actually, I do. And I place the importance of the race as a whole above the importance of any individual, regardless of which set of invisible lines he was born in.

Nobody else does. Which is why I say we may as well give the world over to the cats, since they're getting all our energy instead of the youths dying for us to have the gas to drive to the vet to get our cats healed. When people stop caring about the human race as a whole, it's time for us to go extinct. Because the cats sure as hell aren't on their little cat messageboards typing out energy requests for their humans.


Nor are cats the ones who are responsible for this entire fiasco. If you are to blame and you create such nonsense willingly, why should I have any sympathy for you? :eyebrow:

[Gwenhwyfar]

Nor are cats the ones who are responsible for this entire fiasco. If you are to blame and you create such nonsense willingly, why should I have any sympathy for you? :eyebrow:
I dont think the people who are to blame are the same people who are suffering......not at all...I give them all my sympathy....not that it helps.

[flar7]

I know I'm going to get some hate responses for this one, but:

Does anyone else find it really humorous that the Iraqis pitched such a fit about some (by comparison, minor) behavior like this on behalf of the American forces, and then when we let the Iraqis take over, this is how they treat their own citizens? Seems to me these guys would have been better off in Abu Grahib. Sure, they'd be humiliated, but at least those guys weren't beaten too badly. And there was a medical staff at Abu Grahib.

I just find it ironic that the people protesting our treatment of the prisoners are the same ones doing this.
apples and oranges.

different cultures, different rules. We see physical abuse as the end all be all, but others view the humiliation and torture of the soul as more cruel....... apples and oranges. If you ask the prisoners, I bet they prefer pain as torture over humiliation and spiritual taboos. Its why its widespread, its accepted, but were they to try to force a taboo like bacon on one? That would be like the american prisons trying to feed a prisoner dogmeat or even human flesh, to break him. Different cultures, different taboos.

[Gwenhwyfar]

So its ok to for people to torture their own kinda people, in their own kinda way, either spiritually or physically? ....I think its all crap anyway you slice it, even if your in jail you deserve to be treated humanly.

[Thalias_Smile]

Twig, I apologize for not replying sooner to your post, but I didn't see this post until today--I generally tend to stick to those forums I have subscribed to. I think war is stupid and evil, and accomplishes nothing. Those pictures were horrific, and frankly I was VERY disturbed by the reaction of some ppl--this sort of cavalier "oh well, its war what did u expect" attitude boggles the mind. Have we all become so numb to human suffering that we say and do nothing, unless of course it's happening on home soil? Why is it ok, when someone else is engaging in such activities. On the one hand, I am not surprised, but on the other, I hate the fact that I am not surprised.

I am a member of both Amnesty International AND Majority Voice, and I have signed petitions on humanitarian causes such as this one, with great pride. I am sick of seeing so much apathy in our society. We're pagans--let's start acting like it!

[Gwenhwyfar]

Twig, I apologize for not replying sooner to your post, but I didn't see this post until today--I generally tend to stick to those forums I have subscribed to. I think war is stupid and evil, and accomplishes nothing. Those pictures were horrific, and frankly I was VERY disturbed by the reaction of some ppl--this sort of cavalier "oh well, its war what did u expect" attitude boggles the mind. Have we all become so numb to human suffering that we say and do nothing, unless of course it's happening on home soil? Why is it ok, when someone else is engaging in such activities. On the one hand, I am not surprised, but on the other, I hate the fact that I am not surprised.

I am a member of both Amnesty International AND Majority Voice, and I have signed petitions on humanitarian causes such as this one, with great pride. I am sick of seeing so much apathy in our society. We're pagans--let's start acting like it!

Right On!!

[Ahautenites]

I am sick of seeing so much apathy in our society. We're Peoples--let's start acting like it!

**Raised eyebrow** Apathy and the lack thereof have nothing to do with the definition of Paganism or Pagan beliefs.

[materra]

Scratches head, "let see, I was too young to protest anything about bombing Hiroshima, which was God awful inhuman. Too young for Korea either, but it's still around so I can work on that again. The Cold war, that was a long one, but done I think. Hmmm, well of course there was 'Nam, and I protested that one until it ended. Not that it ended a day sooner than our votes changed the politics of the nation. But I really really protested. Desert Storm? The oil war? THIS oil war?

I feel like half my my life has been protesting man's inhumanity to man, the other trying to raise my family in some semblance of normalicy. You know what has lasted longer?.... my family and my votes. And their votes, and your votes.
Go vote this year okay. In the meanwhile, love with all your heart what you got that is good and wonderful. I include MW in that picture. And Twig, hugs to ya, come back when you're ready to.

[Wyrdsister]

I must admit, I did not look at the entire article for the simple reason I did not want to see the pictures. I find I get sick to my stomach and my soul hurts whenever I see these pictures. Twig, I feel as horrible as you do about this.

For me, war is never justifiable. Torture is never justifiable. I know I may be extreme in my beliefs, but I cannot reconcile war and/or torture with my moral and spiritual beliefs.

I pray for the soldiers who were involved in this.

Wyrdsister

[Wyrdsister]

He aint going anywhere....**ties Twig to the MW Sofa..:thumbsup:.there, now your stuck, like it or not!
And feed him lemonade and spam while he's on the comfy couch, like we did in the ol' days! :D

Wyrdsister

[pawnman]

They share the same nationality. That doesn't make them the same people.

The people who make up the Iraqi government. Presumably, the Iraqis in the photos are being detained by agents of the interim government, many of whom are the same people who screamed bloody murder about Abu Grahib.

[Chibi-Fallon]

apples and oranges.

different cultures, different rules. We see physical abuse as the end all be all, but others view the humiliation and torture of the soul as more cruel....... apples and oranges.

I hate this "we cannot judge" attitude everyon seems to have. The abuse is still *wrong*.
In our prisons they should wardens be able to verbally abuse the prisoners because it’s not physical abuse? I mean if physical abuse is the "end all be all," we should let them verbally abuse them? Just because there's something else out there that's *more* wrong doesn't mean anything.
But we cannot judge. They're a beautiful people.

[LadyTrinity]

:wah:

[Aidron]

I am a member of both Amnesty International AND Majority Voice, and I have signed petitions on humanitarian causes such as this one, with great pride. I am sick of seeing so much apathy in our society. We're pagans--let's start acting like it!


Apathy is just as much a part of existence as sympathy, that is what balance is. You cannot have one without the other.

Also, paganism has nothing to do with promoting or renouncing certain emotional or a lack thereof states. Do not brand me as someone who is ill-informed or incorrect in my faith simply because I am apathetic, just as I will not denounce you for caring. The two have absolutely nothing to do with paganism, so do not preach otherwise. :rolleyes:

[Mysticism Deity]

Not much to say here. I dont like war and dont want to pay attention. It saddens me. My husband and I are from Oregon and he spent 15 months in Iraq.

sad artical and really depressing pictures :( I wish all this was over with.

[Romani Vixen]

Living in Oregon, I've been hearing about this on the news every day. Our Governor is demanding an investigation as to why they were ordered to back out. I don't know why it happened, but I'm happy to know that the women and men defending my turf are good people who stand up for the little man!!!!!

[flar7]

I hate this "we cannot judge" attitude everyon seems to have. The abuse is still *wrong*.
In our prisons they should wardens be able to verbally abuse the prisoners because it’s not physical abuse? I mean if physical abuse is the "end all be all," we should let them verbally abuse them? Just because there's something else out there that's *more* wrong doesn't mean anything.
But we cannot judge. They're a beautiful people.
if you read my post in relation to pawnman whom I quoted, I am just stating that, "just because we of the west think they might have been better off in the 'old' prison, doesnt make it so. Different culture." Torture is torture, whether physical or spiritual. In the west, we see pain as the great injustice of torture, and in comparison a couple of naked men be forced into close proximity as a lesser evil than inflicting physical pain? BS!

pain is pain, and you CAN adjust to it....... spiritual torture is more lasting and detrimental to the psyche/soul IMO.

[Xander67]

I agree with Flar, Bruises heal eventually, but Psychological Trauma takes YEars if at all it heals.

[Chibi-Fallon]

I agree with Flar, Bruises heal eventually, but Psychological Trauma takes YEars if at all it heals.

Unless of course they kill you... then you never heal

[Thalias_Smile]

Apathy is just as much a part of existence as sympathy, that is what balance is. You cannot have one without the other.

Also, paganism has nothing to do with promoting or renouncing certain emotional or a lack thereof states. Do not brand me as someone who is ill-informed or incorrect in my faith simply because I am apathetic, just as I will not denounce you for caring. The two have absolutely nothing to do with paganism, so do not preach otherwise. :rolleyes:
I tend to feel things very deeply...heck, I cried when, in the first Highlander film, Conner's love died in his arms (she had aged while he remained the same). I think my sense of injustice, as well my noticing the over-abundance of apathy in this world, just really took off after the 9/11 attack.

[WynterWynd]

ADMIN.

PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD AND MY NAME FROM THE MEMBERSHIP IMMEDIATELY

Sincerely,
Rev./R. Twig Jones
Twig, I saw the post, I read the story and looked at the pictures. What happened to those human beings is disgusting and heinous.

I didn't coment before because that is the type of story that just saddens me.....makes me walk away shaking my head in disgust.

I'm sorry if you felt you post was ignored.........

[RhiannynWildseed]

Unless of course they kill you... then you never heal

What I think they mean is like some cultures believe in dying with honor. Look at the samuri (sp) and heck, the norsemen way way back when. I'm not saying any kind of torture is ok, but I understand what they are getting at here. In some cultures, if you are humiliated and survive....you continue to be humiliated for the rest of your life...ostracized even. If you are beaten and survive...life goes on and you've kept your honor and dignity. Doesn't make it smart or ok, it's just their way.

I tend to avoid these articles because it does sadden my heart to hear about these horrible acts. I just can't cope with humanity's treatment of itself. I have a belief that everything is profoundly interconnected in ways that many of us can't even imagine, almost to the point that we carry a piece of everything from the beginning of time as we know it within us, thus making us, for all intents and purposes, related. So it does hurt to hear that a person is treating another person, or any living thing, with such disrespect. I send my prayers to Deity every night for the soldiers that believe they are there to make a difference, and for the people there that have to suddenly cope with a very different, and not too friendly, world.

My heart goes out to you, Twig, for the loss of a fellow soldier.

Rhiannyn

P.S. On a personal note...all this Bush bashing...about it being all his war yadda yadda yadda...has gotten very irritating. Even Kerry himself said he supported going to Iraq and removing from Saddam from power, so how in the heck does that make him a better choice? Personally, I don't trust anybody that gets botchalism (spelling) injected into their face. I don't remember hearing this much *****ing for the eight years Clinton continued to randomly bomb Iraq.

[Xander67]

Well, Kerry also later Condemned the War in Iraq too...

Not to bash Kerry, but I dont think that this thread as about Bashing Bush, it is a place to express our outrage at the Humilation and Completely Un Called for actions of Our own Soldiers in a time of war ... with reguards to the Geneva Convention that we sooo cherrish...

Think about it, why do you think the Iraqi insurgents have resorted to Beheading ....
why should they Honnor the Geneva Convention's statutes when this kind of conduct goes on in the prision, and in Guantanamo Bay...

[pawnman]

Well, Kerry also later Condemned the War in Iraq too...

Not to bash Kerry, but I dont think that this thread as about Bashing Bush, it is a place to express our outrage at the Humilation and Completely Un Called for actions of Our own Soldiers in a time of war ... with reguards to the Geneva Convention that we sooo cherrish...

Think about it, why do you think the Iraqi insurgents have resorted to Beheading ....
why should they Honnor the Geneva Convention's statutes when this kind of conduct goes on in the prision, and in Guantanamo Bay...

Uh, this was about IRAQIS torturing other IRAQIS. Our guys were the good guys here, until the commanders ordered them to back down.

[Starpixie]

P.S. On a personal note...all this Bush bashing...about it being all his war yadda yadda yadda...has gotten very irritating. Even Kerry himself said he supported going to Iraq and removing from Saddam from power, so how in the heck does that make him a better choice? Personally, I don't trust anybody that gets botchalism (spelling) injected into their face. I don't remember hearing this much *****ing for the eight years Clinton continued to randomly bomb Iraq.
I so agree with you there! Anyone ever watch or read Black Hawk Down? Dang people!

[WrathofCirce]

The people who make up the Iraqi government. Presumably, the Iraqis in the photos are being detained by agents of the interim government, many of whom are the same people who screamed bloody murder about Abu Grahib.

The interim gov't is largely believed (by Iraqis and non-Iraqis alike) to be a puppet government of the US. Regardless of whether this is true or not it is still going to look bad for us in the international community and here at home.

[WrathofCirce]

I so agree with you there! Anyone ever watch or read Black Hawk Down? Dang people!

Ok... so what does Black Hawk Down have to do with Iraq? We are talking completely different situations and completely different countries.
I don't care if the Pope himself endorsed this war. It doesn't mean that the reasons presented for getting involved were accurate or justifiable.

I, personally, feel like my intelligence is being insulted everytime I hear someone trying to tie this thing into 9/11. I'm not mindlessly bashing Bush. I'm questioning his reasons for putting American lives in harms way. If we sit idly by and not challenge our representitive government on this.... we will no longer have a representitive government. Which, at this point is questionable anyway.

We were given a string of reasons for invading Iraq.... 9/11... damn couldn't make that stick.... WMDs.... nope couldn't find those either.... good of the Iraqi people... the ones we were holding for months and months without charging with a crime and torturing...
If this is acceptable to you, then put on your rose colored glasses, sip your lemonade, sit on the front porch and forget that the government isn't always truthful. Don't think about how 20 billion dollars of Iraq's money that was in the hands of the coallition has disappeared. Don't think about how you are footing the bill for Halliburton's 6 billion dollar no bid contract (for those who don't know, Halliburton is Cheney's old company, and congress has charged Halliburton with grossly overcharging the American tax payer), and certainly don't think about how this change in historical American policy has cost the lives of a great many of your friends, neighbors, brothers, sisters, etc.

I'm not going to stop, however. Somalia is a completely different story. Which can not be, in any way, compared to this War in Iraq. We were not waging war in Somalia. We were trying to enforce the peace and bring needed aid to the country.

Your representitive government only works that way when you challenge them.
"You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hands."

[Erebus]

Also, paganism has nothing to do with promoting or renouncing certain emotional or a lack thereof states. Do not brand me as someone who is ill-informed or incorrect in my faith simply because I am apathetic... The two have absolutely nothing to do with paganism, so do not preach otherwise

So much for "recognizing the Divine in all people".

[Ahautenites]

As far as I know, "recognizing the divine in all people" is not a tenet of my beliefs.

[Starpixie]

Ok... so what does Black Hawk Down have to do with Iraq? We are talking completely different situations and completely different countries.
I don't care if the Pope himself endorsed this war. It doesn't mean that the reasons presented for getting involved were accurate or justifiable.

I, personally, feel like my intelligence is being insulted everytime I hear someone trying to tie this thing into 9/11. I'm not mindlessly bashing Bush. I'm questioning his reasons for putting American lives in harms way. If we sit idly by and not challenge our representitive government on this.... we will no longer have a representitive government. Which, at this point is questionable anyway.

We were given a string of reasons for invading Iraq.... 9/11... damn couldn't make that stick.... WMDs.... nope couldn't find those either.... good of the Iraqi people... the ones we were holding for months and months without charging with a crime and torturing...
If this is acceptable to you, then put on your rose colored glasses, sip your lemonade, sit on the front porch and forget that the government isn't always truthful. Don't think about how 20 billion dollars of Iraq's money that was in the hands of the coallition has disappeared. Don't think about how you are footing the bill for Halliburton's 6 billion dollar no bid contract (for those who don't know, Halliburton is Cheney's old company, and congress has charged Halliburton with grossly overcharging the American tax payer), and certainly don't think about how this change in historical American policy has cost the lives of a great many of your friends, neighbors, brothers, sisters, etc.

I'm not going to stop, however. Somalia is a completely different story. Which can not be, in any way, compared to this War in Iraq. We were not waging war in Somalia. We were trying to enforce the peace and bring needed aid to the country.

Your representitive government only works that way when you challenge them.
"You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hands."
I didn't say that it had anything to do with Iraq. The point was being made that Bush wasn't the only one to send soldiers to fight etc. And I also never implied that 9/11 and the war in Iraq were related.

[WrathofCirce]

I was only asking you specifically about Black Hawk Down. I don't think that anyone expected that to happen. Again, it was a peace keeping/humanitarian mission - not a war. We only lost around twenty soldiers in Somalia. We've lost close to a thousand in Iraq.

The rest was my rant about being justified in questioning the government and more specifically the Bush Administration.

[Starpixie]

I was only asking you specifically about Black Hawk Down. I don't think that anyone expected that to happen. Again, it was a peace keeping/humanitarian mission - not a war. We only lost around twenty soldiers in Somalia. We've lost close to a thousand in Iraq.

The rest was my rant about being justified in questioning the government and more specifically the Bush Administration.
Maybe not, but the people that died, died for no reason as Clinton ripped them out and pretended the whole thing never happened.

[WrathofCirce]

Maybe not, but the people that died, died for no reason as Clinton ripped them out and pretended the whole thing never happened.

True, and I'll admit that that was pretty bad. However, Clinton didn't have personal reasons for being in Somalia - ie. money, a personal vandetta, greasing the palms of his friends. It was a bungled operation that brought the Clinton Administration some embarassment. Their hearts were in the right place though. Those soldiers were there as enforcements only so that aid could make it through to where it was most needed. Still, I don't find it comparable to Iraq. Iraq, for Bush, is a huge cash cow. I think he expected that the war itself would boost the economy, but on a personal note - he personally profitted from this war as oil prices rose. Who knows who walked away with the 20 bil that is missing from the Iraqi government? And there is not doubt that Cheney greased the palms of his former business associates. I know Bush is still on the payroll of his old oil company, but I don't know about Cheney. It's fishy, however. Especially since members of Bush's administration were planning another war in Iraq long before Bush was ever elected (memos in 1998), and Wolfowitz signed off on war in Iraq as early as September 15, 2001 although there was nothing at all to suggest Iraq's involvement in 9/11 as it was quickly established that almost all of the terrorists were of Saudi descent, and none in fact, were Iraqi.

[flar7]

Unless of course they kill you... then you never heal
in which case you are happy and become a martyr according to their faith.

[Romani Vixen]

I was only asking you specifically about Black Hawk Down. I don't think that anyone expected that to happen. Again, it was a peace keeping/humanitarian mission - not a war. We only lost around twenty soldiers in Somalia. We've lost close to a thousand in Iraq.

The rest was my rant about being justified in questioning the government and more specifically the Bush Administration.
I have a friend who was stationed in Somalia. She was on the radios with the guys during the masacre. Ask her if it was a war.... or if those men's lifes could have been sparred....

[flar7]

the downed blackhawk in Somalia was a combination of errors. Using a weapon incorrectly and against the "grunts' with the know how's advice. The time down passed very quickly and it was known that they were being pinned down as bait to lure more Blackhawks in to be shot down. RPG and shoulder sam's were in abundance. As to what constitutes war? Ridiculous. If you are in the service of your country and are getting shot at and shooting people...... for you, its war. The reason's behind Somalia were known in advance and approved, it wasnt until people realized the price for protecting the humanitarian aid that the screaming started. Press images of your sons being dragged through the streets do that. It happened, it should have went better, but at least we were informed from the get go, as was congress.

I expect my politicians to lie to me, but I expect fair service and going after certain priorities. Dont start another war while you are "losing" the one you got going. Dont make up reasons for it, use the real ones and see what your constituency thinks. If we are gonna be liberating peoples that are oppressed, we got a bunch more countries to go to. Likely though, we will just be liberating the ones that produce important goods such as oil.

[Twig]

I want to apologize for the firestorm I started. It seems like everytime I start a thread this is the result any more.

In truth, before I started the second post I asked the Gods to give me a sign as to how I should go from here. I am at a bit of a crossroads you see. So, I got my answer. THere is noone here to blame for I was asking a question and when I got my answer.....well this kills me.

I just want everyone to know I love you. If you see me around the net say Hi!

In any case I was invited to their send off....no funeral could put more ice in my heart than this.

So I say goodbye. May Andrasta protect every one of you and may this site grow to be a force to be reckoned with. May your dreams come true.

Peace,
Twig
matrixdruid@hotmail.com

[WynterWynd]

:sadeyes:

I hope you find what ever it is you are looking for Twig....safe journey.......

[pawnman]

I have a friend who was stationed in Somalia. She was on the radios with the guys during the masacre. Ask her if it was a war.... or if those men's lifes could have been sparred....

I'm sure those guys felt it was war. They knew what they were there for. They knew the risks when they went in.

These guys paid the ultimate price for humanitarian reasons. They are real heroes. But, bad as it may sound, that's what the military is for. To stand between the bad guys and the rest of us. To take bullets for the civilians. That's their job (soon to be my job, although I'm not anxious to take any bullets).

[DianaStormDancer]

I want to apologize for the firestorm I started. It seems like everytime I start a thread this is the result any more.

In truth, before I started the second post I asked the Gods to give me a sign as to how I should go from here. I am at a bit of a crossroads you see. So, I got my answer. THere is noone here to blame for I was asking a question and when I got my answer.....well this kills me.

I just want everyone to know I love you. If you see me around the net say Hi!

In any case I was invited to their send off....no funeral could put more ice in my heart than this.

So I say goodbye. May Andrasta protect every one of you and may this site grow to be a force to be reckoned with. May your dreams come true.

Peace,
Twig
matrixdruid@hotmail.com
I know you love, and I know just how hard it is to be impartial in posting when something touches us personally and close to home. I for one do not think you have anything to apologize for here.....we as open loving caring and understanding people in this wonderful community should always take the time to realise that certain aspects hit home harder for some people and when we post looking for support we are doing just that not always making a statement to be picked apart or analyzed, and again Im sorry I was unable to be here when you were in need my love. Always know, and feel me with you...your pain is my pain your hopes are my hopes and your fears touch me as profoundly as if they were my own.........PEACE my dearest my thoughts and prayers are with you and T's son in law as well..................

[Phoenix Blue]

:rolleyes: Yeah, a dramatic goodbye until another few months pass, and then another dramatic entrance. Whatever.

[Aidron]

:rolleyes: Yeah, a dramatic goodbye until another few months pass, and then another dramatic entrance. Whatever.


:rotfl:


Oh you kill me peanut butter man.

[mothwench]

Yes, we are all morally deficient for not replying to your post. :rolleyes:
:wtf: speak for yourself. :hmmmmm: i didn't see this cause i was away.

sorry this got such nasty responses, twig.
thanks for posting it, in any case. :bubbles:

[Phoenix Blue]

It didn't get any responses until Twig got all bent out of shape and demanded a response out of the rest of the community. What did he expect? "Oh, we're so sorry, you're absolutely right! What were we thinking?!"

I'm thinking that I don't really care about the fates of a few Iraqis who are living in Iraq. It sucks that our government has to let something like this go, but that's one of the consequences of Iraqi self-rule.

Where's the moral relativism I see so much around here now? Or does that only apply to female genital mutilation and other matters of human rights in countries we don't occupy?

[Autumn]

I really didn't see this before today.

Too often these atrocity issues cause the reader a sense of deep helplessness.

That is how I feel. I will go vote in November and I have stones in my heart knowing that we cannot just leave and we cannot make the Iraqi people adopt our social values. I do not know what the answer is...

[Radocs]

:wtf: speak for yourself. :hmmmmm: i didn't see this cause i was away.

sorry this got such nasty responses, twig.
thanks for posting it, in any case. :bubbles:

It was sarcasm in response to his obvious goading and whining at a lack of a response. Read my later posts before jumping down my throat.

[mothwench]

i'm not jumping down your throat. in fact, anywhere near your throat is the last place i would ever want to be. ;) i'm saying, when you say we, please note that some people might not have the same opinion as you.

but i am sorry, it's just that i'm in a pissy mood cause my holiday is over. :wah:

[Radocs]

i'm not jumping down your throat. in fact, anywhere near your throat is the last place i would ever want to be. ;) i'm saying, when you say we, please note that some people might not have the same opinion as you.

but i am sorry, it's just that i'm in a pissy mood cause my holiday is over. :wah:

You're still missing the point. At no point was I claiming to seriously speak for anybody else.

I guess I'm in a pissy mood too though.. Being at work is miserable. >_<

[Valnorran]

It didn't get any responses until Twig got all bent out of shape and demanded a response out of the rest of the community. What did he expect? "Oh, we're so sorry, you're absolutely right! What were we thinking?!"

I'm thinking that I don't really care about the fates of a few Iraqis who are living in Iraq. It sucks that our government has to let something like this go, but that's one of the consequences of Iraqi self-rule.

Where's the moral relativism I see so much around here now? Or does that only apply to female genital mutilation and other matters of human rights in countries we don't occupy?
That's about the size of it.

[DianaStormDancer]

:rolleyes: Yeah, a dramatic goodbye until another few months pass, and then another dramatic entrance. Whatever.
Hmmmmmmmm....:whatmewor .....emotional creatures we humans.....one mans intense emotion can be veiwed as drama to another I suppose.....

[Phoenix Blue]

No dice. I'm working off empirical evidence. This is the third or fourth time Twig's made a big production out of leaving, crocodile tears and all. Once is intense emotion--by the third time around, it's melodrama.

[Xentor]

No dice. I'm working off empirical evidence. This is the third or fourth time Twig's made a big production out of leaving, crocodile tears and all. Once is intense emotion--by the third time around, it's melodrama.

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