Druidic Disillusionment.

[Shax]

The longer I attempt to meet those interested in and/or following the true Druid paths I become more disgusted by the peacenicks corrupting the glory of my ancestors by the white-robe, flower-child antics they employ. I am far from what one would describe as evil, but I am serious as to the more arcane and dark truths of the path. I want feedback from both Celts and my Asatru brothers and sisters. :hailmol:

[Fideal]

I think trying to be peaceful is a noble cause *shrugs* As long as they aren't saying thats the only way to do it, I don't have a problem with them. Personally I think a balance between the light and dark should be strived for; singular focus on the light is just as bad as singlur focus on the dark.

[Phi]

The longer I attempt to meet those interested in and/or following the true Druid paths I become more disgusted by the peacenicks corrupting the glory of my ancestors by the white-robe, flower-child antics they employ. I am far from what one would describe as evil, but I am serious as to the more arcane and dark truths of the path. I want feedback from both Celts and my Asatru brothers and sisters.
Who are your ancestors that you feel their honor corrupted and why do you think so?

[Ron]

Well, as a countryman of Cymru, I am anti-Astru. Nevertheless, I must say that anything which is orthodox and proper is good and orderly. For example, England. England's ability to conquer nearly the entire globe was due to their power, instilled by their orderlyness. One can thusforth conclude that without good and order power cannot be ever greatening. Then again, all things do come to an end.

Neo-Druidism as you seek will not be so if it based on evil or the darker arts. Proper Druidic principles, which are well melded into my tradition -- which I see to be the largest traditionist faith of Celtia that survives today, which just happens to apply the secrets of democracy and socilism -- are of balence. The knowledge of the 3 of the Earth (as a planet), the 5 of Animals, the 7 of Planes (dimensions), the 9 of Blessing, are all integal parts of Traditionalist Cymric Faith, and argueably all of Druidry itself. Let us not forget the knowledge of 1, which is that the will of the One that brought forth our souls -- the One that is the first true being (after the Great Spirit) -- is not to be melded. It is thus acceptable to ask that the will of the First Being to be upheld, but not that their will be changed. It is thus acceptable to ask the First Being to change their will. Keeping this knowledge, by Universal Law, ensures one's soul's and body's enlightenment and protection from malice and evil.

The darker arts of hatred and manipulation are not present in Druidry. And I do declare, as does His Grand Glory the Taaren Goch, that any such person does have no right to call theirself Druid, Witch, Chrisitan, Jew, honourable or good.

bless.

[Rina]

All very well said, Rhys.

Yes, the over sugaring of any set of beliefs is deplorable. If a set beliefs are fundamentally based on peaceful principles already, then seeking to promote the darker elements of the tradition, over and above the peaceful and lighter ones is, to some extent, just as removed from the spirit of the thing.
All sets of beliefs have light and darkness, but they should be kept in their relative and relevant proportions.

[tree_guy]

harm no other unless they have truly proven that they are unworthy of the gift of skin, and thus be used to feed the Mother with a healthy dram of lifeforce, but in plain terms, blood.

druids are the equalizers set upon earth to right the way of man and help and heal all creatures and lands that require such attention.

there is a balance of light and dark, just as every day shows.

and what's wrong with white robes?

[tree_guy]

and if you are of true descent, would you perchance refrain from the use of generalizations, in particular,..'celt'...
say it like you mean it.
if you are quick to jest, be prepared to unsheath your rationale as if it were a volley.
peaceniks in white robes and flower child antics, so to say, is their communion with nature and who are you to state otherwise?
what is wrong with that?
are you not druid?

[Dave the Druid]

It matters not to me where you come from.
Nor shall I question your beliefs.
Peace is almost always preferable to war, however when the path to peace is exhausted the best isn't always to run. If you go into the history I think you will find examples of Druid warriors. I don't think they sent Bards and Ovates to Anglesea.
I do not subscribe to the Rede. I am a Druid not a Wiccan and that does not bind me. I have to live by a giese that is a bit broader than the Rede. I do not shun the Asatru for they have something to teach and can be a very present help when specific results are all that matter. Mess with my clan and you will get a bloody stump back. (Celtic/Pagan ethics)

Shax, I do not know who your ancestors are, but I will say that your post looks far more like it trying to anger people than to say "we do have blood on our hands and we like it".

I do not have robes of flowing white, I am not a peacenik(see above) but I am a Druid and my first move will always be for peace. What you do determines my second.

[Gwenhwyfar]

You know I dont think Iv met a single Druid fluffbunny, ever....doesnt make you one if you wear white robes either.....and whats wrong with flowers, there one of my favorite things....I might be a peacefull, flower picking nature lover, but Im also the first one to pick up a stick and beat you to death with it if you try to harm or disrespect me or my loved ones....So maybe read the book before you decide if its any good or not? Those people might not be as flowerchildish as you first thought...and Im interested in hearing about your ancestors, the dark and arcane truths of their paths...if you dont mind discussing them.

[tree_guy]

.and Im interested in hearing about your ancestors, the dark and arcane truths of their paths...if you dont mind discussing them.

i as well.

please do,...praytell.

so many questions you have racked up, shax.
please, a trade if you will, enlightenment for enlightenment.....true power is knowledge.
let us be strong, together.

do we have an accord?

[mothwench]

Well, as a countryman of Cymru, I am anti-Astru. Nevertheless, I must say that anything which is orthodox and proper is good and orderly. For example, England. England's ability to conquer nearly the entire globe was due to their power, instilled by their orderlyness. One can thusforth conclude that without good and order power cannot be ever greatening. Then again, all things do come to an end.

SNIPPED FOR PHI

bless.
if england is so grand, then why have we got the most dismal plumbing in the whole entire western world? why can't i have a shower there without either getting frustrated at the dribble coming out of the shower head, or having my nipples stung by the force of the water?

why do people in britain use the same tea-bag three times and roll their cigarettes by using the rest of the butts out of the ashtray?

why am i expected to pay 15 quid from maidstone to london just to get on the most rickety horrible train i've ever been on in my entire life, one i wouldn't even see fit for transporting cattle even after it's been slaughtered?

get real, the druids had bugger-all to do with the empire, and all this nonce about british superiority is getting quite old. :rolleyes:




edited to snip the quote so that a certain person can see what exactly i'm replying to :hehehehe:

[Seren_]

Too many paths and places are idealised. But then, if it's the people you don't like, why should it reflect on your path? I'm sure there are plenty of Christians or Wiccans, for example, that would say something similar.

There isn't one path that doesn't have some followers other people would rather do without, whether those people are misguided or not.

[Phi]

if england is so grand, then why have we got the most dismal plumbing in the whole entire western world? why can't i have a shower there without either getting frustrated at the dribble coming out of the shower head, or having my nipples stung by the force of the water?

why do people in britain use the same tea-bag three times and roll their cigarettes by using the rest of the butts out of the ashtray?

why am i expected to pay 15 quid from maidstone to london just to get on the most rickety horrible train i've ever been on in my entire life, one i wouldn't even see fit for transporting cattle even after it's been slaughtered?

get real, the druids had bugger-all to do with the empire, and all this nonce about british superiority is getting quite old. :rolleyes:And this has exactly what to do with the path of Druid? Do you feel that Druids built your plumbing, taught the smoking of cigarrettes, or made rickety trains? Especially since you say the Druids had bugger-all to do with "the empire." I do believe "the empire" of which you speak had a bit more to do with the Angles and Saxons, perhaps?
I don't recall anyone here saying a thing about "Brittish superiority" either.
I am not sure why I even bothered to reply to such a silly post! LOL!

[mothwench]

which was my point, it has nothing to do with the path of the druid
ah, well. yer cute, anyway. :D

[Phi]

I note that Shax has made only one post, the one above, and apparently, folks....
Shax has left the building...geez, didn't really mean to scare him off...but sometimes that happens.
Hope the poor guy is okay and not an ash heap...
;)

[Tangerines]

As to the truth of your ancestors, thread-starter, judging by your avatar you're Irish. Well, your ancestors were Catholics, whether you like it or not, and the conversion of the Irish was one of the most peaceful in Europe, so don't give me gob about them hunting down the "true Irish" like a like of your lot do. Just because something is ancient, whther it be a faith, its ideals, or its practises, doesn't mean you have to or should venerate and copy everything it did. Why do you think people converted to a religion that rules out blood sacrifice? Why do you think the first modern Druids expressly forbade it?

[Matsumoto]

Notice the one who posted this has nothing to say in retort...

[Ladyvi]

well the kelti and the beginnings of druid once called druii didnt start in britian or ireland. started somewhere around the black sea area. the kelti migrated to britain and ireland. the pics and sidhe where already there. as well as a few other 'people'. none of this is of written record for lore was handed down via oral tradition. dont know if glyphs still exist from that period or not.

the legend of epona speaks of this.

britain and ireland do not have a monopoly on druid. druid isnt a people thing. its within the essence of ones being.. not completely lineage. now it is true that certain lineage have an affinity towards certain ways and energy patterns that work with druid. it however didnt start that way.

[Tangerines]

Nobody's claiming we had a monopoly on them. He simply talked about his ancestors, and by the Irish flag I would assume he means the Irish. Not all Celts had close ties, after all; the various tribal kingdoms in Ireland rarely had any sort of contact with tribes like the Aeduii, etc. down in Gaul.

[Ladyvi]

just making a point

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Gang!
How goes the move Phi?

Slamming the Brit, really honks me off. Now that said there are some great notes on history here and they should be paid attention to.
First however, let me say that the most public and current organizations are Brit. If that is where this complaint comes from so be it, but let us not forget our roots.

well the kelti and the beginnings of druid once called druii didnt start in britian or ireland. started somewhere around the black sea area. the kelti migrated to britain and ireland. the pics and sidhe where already there. as well as a few other 'people'. none of this is of written record for lore was handed down via oral tradition. dont know if glyphs still exist from that period or not.
the legend of epona speaks of this. LadyVi
Well said! I'd also say rule out the glyphs. Things were passed down by mouth and memory.

Mothwench, having expatriated I have to say I miss a great deal of home but going back for good is out of the question. I haven't been able to find a good chippie in this country and don't even think about pubs! That said there are good things about living here that out number my homesick desires.

Tangerines: When I tell people that I am a Druid I do occasionally hear about human sacrafice and the usual, 'do you still?' I usually reply that virgins are in short supply around here.

As to our host who has left, Tree-guy's offer is a good one. Why not kick it around on those solid Druidic terms, we are after all life long learners.

[Phi]

[QUOTE=Dave the Druid]Hi Gang!
How goes the move Phi?

Slow. Getting computer printouts of houses to look at from the real estate sites, dog boarding set up, mail stopped, packing started. :needcoffe But making progress. We leave for househunt this weekend. Thanks for asking.

Now to thoroughly hijack this thread, since the originator of it has left us,:tongueout

Tell me, fellows, fili, given a choice between a house with a few acres and natural spring, or a house with a tiny wooded lot but near the great river and having access to "hiking trails" golf and boating, which would you choose, other factors being equal? (O course me hubby will have a say in this as well as it is not my decision alone.)

[Gwenhwyfar]

I would go with the house with a few acres and natural spring...they both sound great but I like to wander my property in the evenings and its just not the same when theres campers, golfers, boaters or whatnot around.....happy choosing, either way itll be a great desion, congratulations!

[Dave the Druid]

Tough call!

the woods, the water sound good to me, but then again so does the meadow with the spring. My favorite place has woods, water and spring but alas it is one of the things I miss about the UK.

Best of luck on your choice!

[Rina]

Us poor old Brits need as much support as we can get! :falloffch

Oh, and Phi, I'd go with the private land every time. Springs are very uplifting little places.

[tree_guy]

a house in the woods.
no crowds...no problem.
what a better way to go......(only the opinion of a man whose soul was born in the trees.)

[Ladyvi]

house with spring.. large river equals huge energy. could take energy away from you or bring you too much depending on how the river flows.

the natural spring usually have a sprite or guardian of sorts to them. giving them little offerings is always nice. im sure there are woods around you can go to from there. a few acres means some good gardening.

[Phi]

Thanks a lot for the opinions!

I am leaning to the house with spring and acres, but of course, will have to check out each in person first! Photo's can be deceiving. Also things sell fast there, and the one with the spring may sell before I have even the chance of looking it over.

Oh, yes, Lady Vi thanks for the reminder on the river flow. The homes there are stuck out on a peninsula. May be very bad energies thus. I'll remember to check out the flow around it, but some say that unless the river curves naturally around the site and does not flow towards it, the energies can be damaging. This would be especially obvious should the river greatly flood!

I'll let you all know once I get back from househunt!

[mothwench]

Mothwench, having expatriated I have to say I miss a great deal of home but going back for good is out of the question. I haven't been able to find a good chippie in this country and don't even think about pubs! That said there are good things about living here that out number my homesick desires.

yeah, i miss a great deal of things, too. but i also get increadibly pissed off when i see the state of things there.
where are you living now, then?

[Nantonos]

well the kelti and the beginnings of druid once called druii didnt start in britian or ireland. started somewhere around the black sea area. the kelti migrated to britain and ireland. the pics and sidhe where already there. as well as a few other 'people'. none of this is of written record for lore was handed down via oral tradition. dont know if glyphs still exist from that period or not.

the legend of epona speaks of this.

It does? Could you elaborate? Which legend are you referring to ?

[Tangerines]

The Celts, according to both their legend and historical analysis, originated somewhere near the mouth of the Danube (hence the name Dana/Danu as a principal goddess in a number of cultures, and the Tuatha de Danaan, Children of Danu). Three cities, left abandoned as they moved westward at the urging of the gods (or, historically, because they were displaced by other incoming Indo-European groups, like the Germans, Slavs, and Scythians).

On a side (and slightly anal, I apologise) note, it's Picts (from Picti, Latin for Painted Ones, the origin of the word 'picture'), and it was not the sidhe, but the Tuatha de Danaan. They were not sidhe until after the takeover of the sons of Míl and the diminishment of their authority over the land or, in the case of more modernised myths, with the Irish Catholic touch, it was not until after the conversion of the Irish that they became the daoine sidhe, diminished in importance and size to mankind. 'Daoine sidhe' (Deenee shee) literally means 'hill people', referring to the belief that the displaced Children of Danu set up new courts inside raths, the faery hills (a rath was also a human fort, a simple affair where a small clan tunnelled into a hill and dug a trench or placed a stockade around it. Basically, a place to put your cattle and children).

For the curious, in modern Irish, sidhe is now spelt 'sí', and pronounced the same way, but tend only to refer to a faery hill/mound instead of all hills in general. Don't think it always refers to this, though, because it also means 'she' and 'it' more often than not. But an example of the faery usage would be 'an slua sí', the faery host.

[mothwench]

Three cities, left abandoned as they moved westward at the urging of the gods (or, historically, because they were displaced by other incoming Indo-European groups, like the Germans, Slavs, and Scythians).

germanic tribes, yes. germans... no. they weren't around until thousands of years later.
please let's all say what we mean, yeah?
cause germans are actually a mix of germanic, slav and celtic tribes.
just felt the need to mention that. :crazyman:

[Tangerines]

Actually, Germans does refer to the Germanic tribes (but I always thought Furor Teutonicus sounded cooler, even if it only refers to a certain group along the fringe of the Roman Empire). And remember, the people we think of as Germans today didn't tend to think of themselves as anything but Bavarians, Prussians, Hessians, Hanoverians, etc. until the unification of Germany in the 1800s.

[Tangerines]

On an entirely unrelated note, I hate how I always buzz by the Druids forum when I'm scrolling down to find it, then get lost somewhere around Music and Books.

[Tangerines]

I do agree, though, that Germanic tribes is probably better. It's easier, at least, than memorising all those damned tribe names (I can only remember a few off the top of my head, from reading De Bellum Gallia).

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Mothwench!

Upstate NY, and you?

[Dave the Druid]

I do agree, though, that Germanic tribes is probably better. It's easier, at least, than memorising all those damned tribe names (I can only remember a few off the top of my head, from reading De Bellum Gallia).

Well Done Tangerines!

So few of us go back that far in History. I find that most stop in Ireland. I would say that my own short focus points back to the migration from Iberia, with knowlege of a more pan-european time floating around. NB Hallstadt

[mothwench]

germany, actually. :D

[mothwench]

Actually, Germans does refer to the Germanic tribes (but I always thought Furor Teutonicus sounded cooler, even if it only refers to a certain group along the fringe of the Roman Empire).
there are two definitions of the word german? i didn't know. :sunny:

And remember, the people we think of as Germans today didn't tend to think of themselves as anything but Bavarians, Prussians, Hessians, Hanoverians, etc. until the unification of Germany in the 1800s.
which is exactly why i thought it was kind of wrong to say that these people drove away the celts, because back when it happened, there were no germans to speak of. i think we're missing each other's point, it seems to happen quite alot on this thread. :hehehehe:

[Nantonos]

there are two definitions of the word german? i didn't know. :sunny:

At least.

Before the Gallic wars, the term German did not exist. People north of the Alps and north of Italy and Greece were all described as Celts or, if they were more to the east, Scythians. This was a geographical definition not one based on linguistics or material culture..

During the Gallic wars, Caesar describes some people as Celts and others as Germans, and the Rhine as the dividing line between them. He probably did this for reasons of narrative , to show that he had conquered 'all of the Gauls' rather than 'some of the Celts'. At the time, plenty of people on the east bank of the Rhine had a Celtic language and a Celtic material culture.

Following the formalisation of the boundaries of empire under Augustus, Germania was used as a geographical label meaning that area bounded by the Rhine, the Elbe, the North and Baltic seas, and the Alps.

Following the introduction of the two military buffer zone provinces of Germaniia Inferior and Germania Superior (previously part of Gaul), the term Germania was sometimes used to refer to the older Germania (Germania Libra) and sometimes to the newer one.

Its also worth noting that the people outside the Roman Empire were not static; so the 'Germans' who were resettled on the west bank of the Rhine in the 30s BCE, and the 'Germans' who invaded and were repulsed in the 260s and 270s, and the 'Germans' who invaded and took over in the 4th and 5th centuries were not all the same people.

Essentially, at the time Caesar declared the Rhine to be a boundary of two peoples differing linguistically and culturally, it was an untrue statement; but it became true in the intervening centuries. The people who had a Germanic language moved into that area from modern Denmark, Scandanavia, and north eastern Europe beyond the Elbe.

[Dave the Druid]

Try thinking of regionalism as a long hangover of clan and family relations and where they lived.
I don't use the term tribe, that was applied by later outsiders.

[mothwench]

At least.

Before the Gallic wars, the term did not exist. people north of the alps and north of Italy and Greece were all described as Celts or, if they were more to the east, Scythians. This was a geographical definition.

During the Gallic wars, Caesar describes some people as Celts and others as Germans, and the Rhine as the dividing line between them. he probably did this for reasons of narrative , to show that he had conquered 'all of the Gauls' rather than 'some of the Celts'. At the time, plenty of people on the east bank of the Rhine had a celtic langige and a Celtic material culture.

Following the formalisation of the boundaries of empire under Augustus, Germania was used as a geographical label meaning that area bounded by the rhine, the elbe, the north and baltic seas, and the alps.

Following the introduction of the two milirary buffer zone provinces of Germaniia Inferior and germanis Superior, the term Germania was sometimes uzsed to refer to the older germania (Germania Libra) and sometimes to the newer one.

Its also worth noting that the people outside the roman empire were not static so the 'Germans' who were resettled on the west bank of the Rhine in the 30s BCE, and the 'Germans' who invaded and were repulsed in the 260s and 270s, and the 'Germans' who invaded and took over in the 4th and 5th centuries were not all the same people.

Essentially, at the time Caesar declared the Rhine to be a boundary of two peoples differing linguistically and culturally, it was an untrue statement; but it became true in the intervening centuries. The people who had a Germanic language moved into that area from modern Denmark, Scandanavia, and north eastern Europe beyond the Elbe.

thanks! :D you know, you have the neatest way of explaining things i've been trying to get my head round for years, in a matter of five minutes. :spinnysmi

[Ladyvi]

sorry about the mispelling .. and the sidhe was already there .. the fae.. descended from the shining ones that where from anu grandfather of D'anu.

the legend of epona .. i read it long ago.. have to find the book again.

[Tangerines]

I stand by my knowledge of the terminology and history of the sidhe.


On another note, I think the only German tribe I can remember is the Suebii. Correct me on spelling there if I'm wrong.

[tree_guy]

i swear it is like pulling teeth!!
'celt' is also a new term, only about 5 or 6 hundred years old...a term which was coined by a French scribe to classify all of the Gaelic into a recognizable moniker....an good golly gosh, it worked!..."Gael" is the term.......G--A--E--L.

[Tangerines]

i swear it is like pulling teeth!!
'celt' is also a new term, only about 5 or 6 hundred years old...a term which was coined by a French scribe to classify all of the Gaelic into a recognizable moniker....an good golly gosh, it worked!..."Gael" is the term.......G--A--E--L.

Um. Celt. Kelt. Keltoi. It comes from Greek. It's thousands of years old. Gaels are an ethnic group in the Celtic cultural sphere, but not all Celtic peoples were Gaels. Just the Irish (for a while, anyways, before the Norse and Normans showed up) and, after the invasion of Scotland by the Scotti, the Scots (again, after the absorption of the Picti and before the Norse).

Gael is possibly derived from an Iberian tribe (there is a Galicia, after all) but it is not an umbrella term.

[tree_guy]

don't believe everything you read.

[tree_guy]

why do i bother?
a purist has no place here.
i think. that's my first mistake.

[Tangerines]

Look. I'm Irish. As in, I was born in Ireland, held/hold Irish citizenship. I'm sick of getting lectures on my own ethnicity, and plenty of other people are, too.

The things I've read are well-documented cases of the word 'Keltoi' being used to describe people living north of Greece, people who sacked Delphi at one point, and people who later sacked Rome.

[Tangerines]

why do i bother?
a purist has no place here.
i think. that's my first mistake.


So leave, purist, lest we contaminate you. Nothing is keeping you here save a bellicose attitude.

[tree_guy]

Look. I'm Irish.

and i'm Orange.

i apologize for bringing personal issues to the table, but it has been a sour point for years. actual history versus what is read at the local bookshop in the new age section.

an no room for healing? the first moment difficulty arises, you shun it away?
difficulty being me. why, fair druid, why? is sounding-off a crime?

red tape at my feet, i walk over it.
done.

please pm me if you are still feeling offended and need to sound off without an audience.

best regards.

[Tangerines]

and i'm Orange.

i apologize for bringing personal issues to the table, but it has been a sour point for years. actual history versus what is read at the local bookshop in the new age section.

an no room for healing? the first moment difficulty arises, you shun it away?
difficulty being me. why, fair druid, why? is sounding-off a crime?

red tape at my feet, i walk over it.
done.

please pm me if you are still feeling offended and need to sound off without an audience.

best regards.


I've said multiple times that I'm not a Druid. Thanks for ignoring that fact. The New Age bookshelf? Thanks for calling me a liar. You're not worth my time.

[tree_guy]

pleasant travels, my dear, pleasant travels.

[Seren_]

The Celts, according to both their legend and historical analysis, originated somewhere near the mouth of the Danube (hence the name Dana/Danu as a principal goddess in a number of cultures, and the Tuatha de Danaan, Children of Danu). Three cities, left abandoned as they moved westward at the urging of the gods (or, historically, because they were displaced by other incoming Indo-European groups, like the Germans, Slavs, and Scythians).

There is very little concrete evidence to support the existance of a goddess named Danu, let alone linking her with the river Danube, which is on an entirely different continent to her. Danu is interpreted from a translation of the "Tuatha De Danand" (or variations thereof), and has a number of problems in etymology which have yet to be resolved. Cormac's Glossary mentions and Ana or Anand, but he is a less than reliable source at times, so needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.


'Daoine sidhe' (Deenee shee) literally means 'hill people', referring to the belief that the displaced Children of Danu set up new courts inside raths, the faery hills (a rath was also a human fort, a simple affair where a small clan tunnelled into a hill and dug a trench or placed a stockade around it. Basically, a place to put your cattle and children).

For the curious, in modern Irish, sidhe is now spelt 'sí', and pronounced the same way, but tend only to refer to a faery hill/mound instead of all hills in general. Don't think it always refers to this, though, because it also means 'she' and 'it' more often than not. But an example of the faery usage would be 'an slua sí', the faery host.

The word sid also meant 'peace', so possibly reflects the peaceful and idyllic nature of the people and their lives under the hills as well.

[Ladyvi]

i stand by my memory.

[Nantonos]

why do i bother?
a purist has no place here.
i think. that's my first mistake.

No, purity is not your mistake. But failing to check a few facts is, and the definition given by Tangerine is correct (a fact which is independent of Irish ancestry, by the way). Merely stating you are correct without backing it up is also a mistake, if you are looking for mistakes to learn from.

I suspect you are partially remembering a claim (by Simon James, iirc) that the term Celts was never used to refer to the people of Britain before the 17th century. However, there are other countries besides Britain.

[Nantonos]

i stand by my memory.

You were there at the time? :whatgives

[tree_guy]

No, purity is not your mistake. But failing to check a few facts is, and the definition given by Tangerine is correct (a fact which is independent of Irish ancestry, by the way). Merely stating you are correct without backing it up is also a mistake, if you are looking for mistakes to learn from.

I suspect you are partially remembering a claim (by Simon James, iirc) that the term Celts was never used to refer to the people of Britain before the 17th century. However, there are other countries besides Britain.

aye, rationale has bitten me on the ass again.
thank you, dear friend, for pointing out my obvious folly with thoughtful retort.
always looking to learn.
always.

[Nantonos]

aye, rationale has bitten me on the ass again.
thank you, dear friend, for pointing out my obvious folly with thoughtful retort.
always looking to learn.
always.


:yourock: we are all learning. When we stop, we are not living, just existing.

[Tangerines]

The word sid also meant 'peace', so possibly reflects the peaceful and idyllic nature of the people and their lives under the hills as well.


'Sid' and 'sidhe' are not the same word, not even pronounced the same.


On another note, yes, the British were not referred to as Celtic until around the 17th Century, with the revival (I use this term because a number of Roman authors looked to the tribes to the north and compared them to the decadence of Roman culture) of the romantic image of the noble savage. This, of course, later led to such garbage as the "We Celts" lie fed to Collins.

[Tangerines]

And I hate not being able to remember the Prime Minister who used the "We Celts" line to try and seal a treaty. David Lloyd George, right? Brain fart.

[Nantonos]

On another note, I think the only German tribe I can remember is the Suebii. Correct me on spelling there if I'm wrong.

The Suebii are indeed a Germanic people (describes as Germanic by Caesar). Its not known if they spoke a Germanic or a Celtic language. Their material culture differed somewhat from their (assumed Celtic) neighbors to the west, the Helvetii - in particular the men wore their hair tied up on one side of the head, a feature called the Suebian knot.

Wells mentions that the real cultural differences were north-south not east-west; the Celtic peoples of the north sea coast (such as the Morini) having more in common with their supposedly Germanic neighbors across the Rhine (such as the Canninefates) than their Celtic neighbors further south such as the Helvetii on the (modern) French/Swiss border, for example; who likewise had more in common with their Germanic neighbors the Suebii.

A reasonable overview article of the germanic peoples in the first few centuries CE is at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_tribe
For a map around 100CE, see
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/germanics.htm
a clearer and more modern map (large download) is
http://bibliothecagermanica.de/media/GermaniaPutzger.jpg

Wells, P. S. (1999) The barbarians speak : how the conquered peoples shaped Roman Europe. Princeton, N.J., Princeton University Press.

[Tangerines]

Thanks. I haven't read Caesar in a few years.

[Ceffyl]

sorry about the mispelling .. and the sidhe was already there .. the fae.. descended from the shining ones that where from anu grandfather of D'anu.

the legend of epona .. i read it long ago.. have to find the book again.

Greetings, Ladyvi.

If you could remember the book you read that legend in, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm always curious about new literature or artwork depicting Her. I wasn't aware of any legends associated with her. I've seen one mentioned online authored by Agesalias, a late Greek writer, that says Epona was the daughter of a man who hated women and a mare. The *mare* named her daughter.

I look forward to learning more about the book and where you found the legend.

Ceffyl

[Hellenic_Witch]

'Sid' and 'sidhe' are not the same word, not even pronounced the same.

Correct.
:flowers:

[Seren_]

'Sid' and 'sidhe' are not the same word, not even pronounced the same.


Etymologically supposed to be related in Old Irish, sorry for not being clear on that. As far as I'm aware sidhe is a modern word which comes from sid in Old Irish.

My source is an article from Eigse 17 (1977-79), 'The Semantics of 'Sid' by Tomás O Cathasaigh. If you can get your hands on it, it's worth a read:


"The occurrence in Old Irish of the formally identical pair 1 síd/sith 'Otherworld hill or mound', and 2 síd/sith 'peace', naturally invites speculation as to whether they are etymologically related...."

"...thus ben síde (or ben a sídib) 'goddess, woman of the Otherworld', fer síde 'god, man of the Otherworld', aess síde 'Otherworld folks, the gods.' "

"I suspect that the original pun was on aess síde as Otherworld people and people of peace...The Irish mania for glossing texts was no less marked than their devotion to word-play, and items which appeared as glosses were frequently embodied in the texts by subsequent copyists."

For example (not a great one, but all I could find):



Fégaid Dá Cích rígnai ind ríg
sund iar síd fri síd-blai síar :
áit rogénair Cermait cóem
Fégaid for róen, ní céim cían :

Behold the two Paps of the king’s consort
Here beyond the mound west of the fairy mansion :
The spot where Cermait the fair ws born,
Behold it on the way, not a far step….
-Dindshenchas

[Ladyvi]

if you believe in reincarnation and having memory of where you been.

yes i was there.

the book i read was when i was 17. im still trying to find it. the book speaks of epona's youth and how she grew up before she came into power. how the swift horses of the plains close to the black sea came to the mountain horses of the then kelti. before the migrated west to the british isles.

[Tangerines]

Etymologically supposed to be related in Old Irish, sorry for not being clear on that. As far as I'm aware sidhe is a modern word which comes from sid in Old Irish. :


As a native speaker, I'd have to say no. Daoine sidhe is Old to Middle Irish. The word 'sidhe' doesn't even exist in modern Irish; today, faery mound is 'sí' (which can be confusing, because this word also means she/it) and the word for a faery is now spelt síog, not sídheog (pronounced roughly the same. Shee-ogue and shee-hogue). So, as you can see, the words exist in modern Irish, but sidhe and sídheog (plural and singular) are archaic spellings from Old Irish. Sid whould be pronounced 'sheed', and as far as I know (my sources being my own knowledge, a pair of Irish dictionaries, and a history of the language) the word no longer exists.

[Tangerines]

if you believe in reincarnation and having memory of where you been.

yes i was there.

the book i read was when i was 17. im still trying to find it. the book speaks of epona's youth and how she grew up before she came into power. how the swift horses of the plains close to the black sea came to the mountain horses of the then kelti. before the migrated west to the british isles.

You may be speaking of the book 'Horse Goddess' by Morgan Llewelyn, which is a work of fiction (a novel) based loosely in mythology.

[Ceffyl]

if you believe in reincarnation and having memory of where you been.

yes i was there.

the book i read was when i was 17. im still trying to find it. the book speaks of epona's youth and how she grew up before she came into power. how the swift horses of the plains close to the black sea came to the mountain horses of the then kelti. before the migrated west to the british isles.

Was the legend anything like what is described in Morgan Llewllyn's novel The Horse Goddess? Or maybe Judith Tarr's trilogy starting with White Mare's Daughter?

Blessings,

Ceffyl

[Ceffyl]

You may be speaking of the book 'Horse Goddess' by Morgan Llewelyn, which is a work of fiction (a novel) based loosely in mythology.

I have Morgan Llewellyn's book at home and will see if she has any historical notes in the back of the book. Maybe it's time for a reread...

Ceffyl

[Ladyvi]

all legends have truth in them. i will not discount someone filling in the empty spots with a bit of estrapulation. its very sound. and as i said . i stand by my memory.

[Nantonos]

all legends have truth in them. i will not discount someone filling in the empty spots with a bit of estrapulation. its very sound. and as i said . i stand by my memory.

I'm sure it makes a satisfying mythos. Well crafted novels can do that - the Mythago Wood series by Robert Holdstock, for example. So can movies, such as Star Wars or The Matrix.

They make poor historical sources, however.

[Ladyvi]

if you rely so heavily on just fact and what is written which can at times be biased as it was written from the base of a conquoring nation or someone left behind form such events. history gets garbled. where im relating to has very little if none written record. whatever record i have is from lives past and core soul record. doesnt bother me in the slightest that you believe or not. if you choose to think that mythos is fiction and legends are fancy then so be it . and your loss.

[Nantonos]

if you rely so heavily on just fact and what is written which can at times be biased as it was written from the base of a conquoring nation or someone left behind form such events. history gets garbled.

I am aware that history can get garbled. That is why cross checking is important, and going back to original sources not fourth hand summaries., and studying around the background of a subject to understand the culture and motivations of the sources.

I don't recall mentioning being limited to written sources; archaeology needs to be the factual bedrock that written histories fill in, not the other way round.

Which is not to say that objective fact can supply a complete picture - it can't. But equally, iin the presence of partial facts, saying "well its too hard so I will just make it up" is, for me, severely suboptimal and unsatisfying. Worse is to make it up and pass it off as fact, as unfortunately many Pagan and Magical leaders (Gardner, Crowley, mathers, Blavatsky) seem to have found the necessity to do.


where im relating to has very little if none written record.

That does not take it to the realm of free form imagination. It merely means that we look to archaeology for our facts. And if there are no facts, then there are no facts.


whatever record i have is from lives past and core soul record.

Which is fine, as long as it is presented as such and not as objective fact. Its equally liable to distortion, and being personal is unable to benefit from the cross-checking and contribution of many that factually based disciplines rely on to avoid going astray.

And go astray it most certainly can, as the large number of late 19th century 'Egyptian past lives' that fitted in with the then known facts but fail to take account of the ever developing state of knowledge currently available show. People are easily misled; this is why magical schools such as the G.D. taught challenge and check at every level, even when working with the intuitive.


doesnt bother me in the slightest that you believe or not

Evidently :) However, I don't recall mentioning belief.


if you choose to think that mythos is fiction and legends are fancy then so be it .

I didn't - you just added that interpretation so that I was more convenient to classify.

You entirely missed the point of what I wrote. I said that some well crafted fiction could contribute to mythos. I did not state that all fiction did, and I did not state the converse that all myth is fiction. If you are unable to see that "some A is B" and "All B is A" are not equivalent statements, might I recommend a course in logic?

Its important to be able to use both halves of the brain, the logical and intuitive, and also to use them in concert. Depending entirely on intuition is just as flawed and just as likely to lead to error as restricting oneself to certain fact. The continuum from "Wonderland Wicca" at one erroneous extreme to "Hardcore Traditionalist Reconstruction" on the other. The balance point of greatest truth lies between these extremes.


and your loss.

I thought it didn't bother you? But in fact, you don't know what is my loss or not because I never mentioned (until this post) the intuitive, inspirational, the realm of personal gnosis. I did not speak of belief at all. I just mentioned the realm of the objective fact.

I use both. I just like to be able to tell them apart as far as I can.

If you choose to use just one - to walk the tightrope with one hand tied behind your back - that is your self chosen handicap. But then again, maybe you don't do that and are just alerting me to the presence of the other hand. In which case thanks, but I am already alerted; I just know my left from my right and use the right one for the right job.

[Ladyvi]

at the end of logic is abstract.. at the end of abstract is logic. to what end of the bigger picture. fact or fiction. both or neither.

nothing is as it seems. even in historical record and even in archeological record. what we really need to know. isnt even written down nor are the founders of that around. will they come back or not . who knows. when there is nothing physical what else do you have left but the collective which is marred by the flesh and its imperfections. so what are we to believe. that which is at the moment till something else comes around to adjust ones perception of the truth. i stand by what i believe and what i know. simple as that.

[Restless Spirit]

The longer I attempt to meet those interested in and/or following the true Druid paths I become more disgusted by the peacenicks corrupting the glory of my ancestors by the white-robe, flower-child antics they employ. I am far from what one would describe as evil, but I am serious as to the more arcane and dark truths of the path. I want feedback from both Celts and my Asatru brothers and sisters. :hailmol:
Oh no! Is it really that way with alot of Druidic followers? I want real spiritual belief that comes from my partial Irish heritage too. I would love to really connect with it in a very true, real sense. I don't want it to be corrupted like that either. I can't find too many places that I can get really get started seriously immersing myself in it.
:whatmewor :wth:

[Tangerines]

I coulda swore that this thread was closed. I guess it just kind of dropped off the front page of the Druid section. Weird-crazy.

[Phi]

Oh no! Is it really that way with alot of Druidic followers?
:whatmewor :wth:
Nope...:)

I hope you don't judge all of any one following by any one post on any one thread. LOL

Just look at many threads first, starting with the announcement thread. Then you can, if you wish begin the lessons...they are fun and enlightening too. There is much to discover here.

If after reading and trying the lessons you find that it is your calling, I am sure you will also find real true spiritual blessings too.

[Restless Spirit]

Nope...:)

I hope you don't judge all of any one following by any one post on any one thread. LOL

Just look at many threads first, starting with the announcement thread. Then you can, if you wish begin the lessons...they are fun and enlightening too. There is much to discover here.

If after reading and trying the lessons you find that it is your calling, I am sure you will also find real true spiritual blessings too.

Thank you for the advice. I can always use wisdom. :smile: It's appreciated.

[Grey]

I coulda swore that this thread was closed. I guess it just kind of dropped off the front page of the Druid section. Weird-crazy.
It could have sworn it was too... or perhaps that was the smiliar one that was written in almost 90% gaelic.

[Restless Spirit]

It could have sworn it was too... or perhaps that was the smiliar one that was written in almost 90% gaelic.
This thread was only near the bottom of the first page, it hadn't dropped off .

[Nantonos]

It could have sworn it was too... or perhaps that was the smiliar one that was written in almost 90% gaelic.

I think it just atrophied rather than being closed; likely because LadyVi and I realised we were just talking past each other and not actually doing much communicating let alone convincing. And everyone else had got bored and wandered off.

[Tullip Troll]

Responding to first post.


the whole "Harm none" has leaked into too many beliefs...

Not everyone is a white robed flower child here...but then I don't see anything wrong with being one.

I also think that the practises of a druid were secret..and if they still exist would or should they still not be ?....so then should anyone really believe what they read on the internet about it ?

Some people are empowered by flowers and peace and some need to seek power and death.

MheraPai...limitedly unlimited

[Ladyvi]

its not all marshmellow fluff. though it does taste pretty darn good.

you need the happy flower child. get on my nerves sometimes but they are necessary.

you need the dark sinister i will crush any resistant type. even the i will curse you type. those make me laugh. but its part of the whole.

everyone has a talent and lean towards certain energies and frequencies. does that make them evil ? no. i think they need to realize that though. i have met and are friends with a couple of chaos mages. nicest people you will meet. but they wield the chaotic disturbing energies that gives quite a few people the heeby geebies. met a satanist or two. one was just a want a be. one was extremely serious. was very intellegent and knew his craft. i tip my hat off to that.

doesnt matter what energies you deal with. know your craft and it doesnt make you one side or the other just varying shades of grey.

[Elfa Wylde]

The longer I attempt to meet those interested in and/or following the true Druid paths...

How do you know what the "true" druidic paths are? Concidering they didn't leave us much to go on as far as the actual 'religion' or path goes anyway that statement sounds rather presumptuous. Perhaps wording that sentence to read "the longer i attepmt to meet those interested in and/or following what I believe to be the truer Druid paths..."



I become more disgusted by the peacenicks corrupting the glory of my ancestors by the white-robe, flower-child antics they employ.

The christians have a pretty cool saying about this kind of thing: "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
Let's be honest.. does it REALLY matter if there are "fluffies" wafting about? Perhaps you're taking offence at something they personify in you that you don't care for?
I've done that before... I try not to, but I think we all have. Let them be their Gandalfs and 'wisemen' in white robes passing out flowers to promote peace and harmony... After all... though they're doing it differently than what we're read, weren't the Druids also writers and keepers of laws, community peace, and harmony?
And even if not really... let the fluffies be fluffy... let those drawn to the lighter side walk their path without your judgement... as long as they too, don't judge you.



I am far from what one would describe as evil, but I am serious as to the more arcane and dark truths of the path. I want feedback from both Celts and my Asatru brothers and sisters.


Being descended of the Celts in Ireland, I would suppose that you're asking me to tell you all I've said so far. I'm curious... what draws you to the darkness? no.. no... don't get all huffy... I'm JUST asking. What ARE the "dark truths" you speak of here?
Well... I'll keep an eye on this thread... it's very interesting.

[Ladyvi]

what is truth but the sujective perception of the individual. once that subjective perception changes so does truth. what is true druidic path. it lies within your heart and soul. it lies within and without the universe. it lies outside your known relms of possiblility. with information your truth will change. if your happy with your truth. then that is the true path for you. do not allow someone to come in and tell you this is right and this is wrong. there is more than one way to skin a cat so my daddy says. druidism incompasses all and incompasses nothing.

[Dave the Druid]

The thread that was closed started with the line "looking for a pure celt" or words to that effect. It was in fact closed. I don't think this one has passed the test for closure yet.

[Ron]

This thread was only near the bottom of the first page, it hadn't dropped off .
I thank you for letting us all know that. :evilway:

LOL sorry, I had a hard day lol.

[Restless Spirit]

I thank you for letting us all know that. :evilway:

LOL sorry, I had a hard day lol.
You are ever so welcome.

I only mentioned it because I'm the one that saw it and posted on it, so I am responsible for reviving this, apparently, horrid thread. :flamer:

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Okay the author is one angry person. I'm part English, Scottish, Irish, Indian, Italian, and German and I've got no problem with the people in England wearing white robes and having flowers. I love flowers and I don't think that their doing anything wrong.

[C. Iulia Regilia]

I kinda sorta agree with OP, not that peace is bad or that white robes are bad, but the truth is that there are dark sides to any path. Nature herself is pretty rough at times. And we as students of nature must be as nature is. There are times when a people's existance is threatened or when other equally severe circumstances require us to fight. A mother animal who's baby is in danger is the most dangerous creature there is. It just happens that way. Violence for the sake of violence is evil though, and it does more harm than good.

[~Runa~]

What the OP says is quite true but shouldn't really typecast all druids as being like fluffy types. Some modern druids may have a very serious, different and darker outlook.

From what I've been reading about ancient druids, they were not just priests and shamens but law makers too. They held human sacrifices yes and that was how people behaved in the past. Human sacrifice happened all over, not just in the British Isles. What we modern people consider "evil" wasn't to ancient people for they saw things entirely differently. For instance a human sacrifice offered hope for a better year of health and food. But with our attitude we look down on them as being barbaric and brutish because to kill someone to grow fruits/crops/hunting success is unthinkable. No modern druids can't perform human sacrifices and shouldn't have to because it's the 21st Century, and we're a civilised people. Instead of feeling superior towards the ancients, view them with open minds and learn their wisdom.

I'm an Odinist and have quite a lot of respect for the druids. I haven't studied all about modern druids except what I know from one of them and how they meet up at solstices at Stonehenge. Really I don't see the problem with druids. I don't know what the issue is.

[wolfspirit]

What the OP says is quite true but shouldn't really typecast all druids as being like fluffy types. Some modern druids may have a very serious, different and darker outlook.

From what I've been reading about ancient druids, they were not just priests and shamens but law makers too. They held human sacrifices yes and that was how people behaved in the past. Human sacrifice happened all over, not just in the British Isles. What we modern people consider "evil" wasn't to ancient people for they saw things entirely differently. For instance a human sacrifice offered hope for a better year of health and food. But with our attitude we look down on them as being barbaric and brutish because to kill someone to grow fruits/crops/hunting success is unthinkable. No modern druids can't perform human sacrifices and shouldn't have to because it's the 21st Century, and we're a civilised people. Instead of feeling superior towards the ancients, view them with open minds and learn their wisdom.

I'm an Odinist and have quite a lot of respect for the druids. I haven't studied all about modern druids except what I know from one of them and how they meet up at solstices at Stonehenge. Really I don't see the problem with druids. I don't know what the issue is.


Agreed. Not one of us can claim that we are exactly like our ancestors, especially since some of the history itself is masked in shadows. Neo-druidism is exactly what it is because of that fact. People are adapting some core beliefs that suit them for modern society, and there is nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with trying to be as exact as you can. Either side is entitled to their beliefs and practices (so long it be legal), and it shouldn't deter you from following your own.

[Lucien]

The knowledge of the 3 of the Earth (as a planet), the 5 of Animals, the 7 of Planes (dimensions), the 9 of Blessing.

Could you explain to me what this is please?