human cloning?what do u think?

[WaterRaven]

let me know what u guys think about human cloning or cloning in general? i do and dont agree with it. i agree in the sense that we are so advanced that we can creat duplicates of living things and i disagree cause it goes against everything we stand for.

[bloodstone20]

not all of us stand for the same thing. IMO, it is like making a twin. They are alike in appeirences, but are two different people, on different levels, and it all has to do with the way they are raised, their enviorment and there knowledge. A clone of a rich girl raised in a homeless family will be nothing like the rich girl, IMHO.

[Earth Walker]

I disagree totally with ALL of the genetic research! :G


Only my Cat understands me.
************************
There are only two times I feel stress.
Day :D and Night :D

[bloodstone20]

you sound a little like Bush (sorry, couldn't resist.

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by bloodstone20
you sound a little like Bush (sorry, couldn't resist.


Kate Bush :cool:


Only my Cat understands me.
************************
There are only two times I feel stress.
Day :D and Night :D

[Shadow Stalker]

:(
I am conserned with human cloning.....what happeneds when one clone finds out they are a clone?

I mean...I sure wouldnt be pleased about that!

I dont think the growing of an organ or limb is so bad, specially if it can save a loved ones life.....but still, i think it will be a long time before people will be comfortable with the thought of it all.

But I mean, people can be against it, that is their right, as long as they understand that it is going to happen.....the world is evolving very fast now, and there is no stopping a wave from hitting shore...so to speak!:D

Blessings.

Shadow:)

[SpikesPet5150]

Well my big problem is (and I'm sure a big problem for alot of you out there).. I believe that we have souls, so to speak.. not a soul that goes to heaven.. but a big thing of energy. :) And, you can't clone that. I disagree with cloning of humans and animals.. but I suppose I agree with cloning organs and limbs.
~Bree
:elf:

[Shadow Stalker]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150
Well my big problem is (and I'm sure a big problem for alot of you out there).. I believe that we have souls, so to speak.. not a soul that goes to heaven.. but a big thing of energy. :) And, you can't clone that. I disagree with cloning of humans and animals.. but I suppose I agree with cloning organs and limbs.
~Bree
:elf:

i agree with that.....one would think the clones would then be souless beings?

But then there is the reincarnation of it all......would it be safe to assume that since humans are cloning, replicating other beings, then the whole proccess of reincarnation would be working over double time to compensate, giving these new creations, souls?

Otherwise wouldnt the sheep ect be just like zombies? But who can tell?

That would mean that the clones would be receiving reincarnated souls, that have had their lives cut short, and not learning their lessons, because humans are playing god?

Or, would it mean that a new soul would have to be born to give life to the clone, there fore overpopulating, and starining, the reincarnation chain?

Shadow

[SpikesPet5150]

Wow.. good point Shadow Stalker. I never really thought of it that way. But, I'm still going to say, "Big Fat No." to the subject of cloning humans.. there's no need for it.. we have no problem reproducing.
~Bree

[EasternPriest]

Cloning humans? No, thank you...too much like the Garden of Eden.....besides, it's too much fun the old fashioned way.:p

[Shadow Stalker]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150
But, I'm still going to say, "Big Fat No." to the subject of cloning humans.. there's no need for it.. we have no problem reproducing.
~Bree

I completely agree with you on that....there is no need to clone humans, but you know that if they can do it, they will do it...



Shadow

[flar7]

Cloning will happen until people realize the indgrediants. Especially when cloning organs and such. You need the undesignated cells and their is only one source. It would be scary to make a market for those types of fetus cells. The Catholic Church will vehemently oppose this. As will most of the American government, unless they can make money, and then look out.

If you were the one who needed the organ you might have a different opinion. As most of those who need organs will. Their would be no need for anti-rejection drugs.

[Shadow Stalker]

My husband just got home with a good point.

"That to beleive in resurrection, and to assume that the resurrected soul has come from earth alone, is niave.

"The universe is made up of billions ect, of planets, full of life, that we, perhaps cant perceive, but that are therenone the less. So even though these clones are replicars there sands to reason that there is a ressoviour of waiting souls to be reincarnated, and that the process will then speed up with the creation of these clones.

"They may not be born in the natural way, but they are born nonetheless, and if you dont class them as being born, then what of the IVF (test tube babies)? The process was questioned when it first came out, and though different to cloning, has the same controversy that surrounds cloning today."


So I put it down for you to discuss..

Blessings
Shadow

[Shadow Stalker]

:p
It seems that the Catholic Church is against many things, but it is always over-ridden.....
:o

It is loosing face, and loosing power.....which is not always a good thing, I mean without something to say.."hang on I think that is wrong..".......who's to stop the human race from doing a major booboo?

LOL

:D

Blessings
Shadow

[Tarot Collector]

Cloning a human being seems to be completely unnecessary. But it might be well to have the technology for some future threat to the human race such as a terrible plague that truely decimated the population of the world, and the only way to purpetuate humanity was to clone whichever humans seemed to be most immune to the disease. But ... wow, what a -way out- reason.

Cloning non-humans? : Obviously, saving some endangered species of animals is a good use. And maybe resurrecting some species ala Jurassic Park (nevermind...... I'm sure T-Rex will just taste like chicken anyway).

I think genetic engineering is the bigger issue right now. Cloning things is kind of like pulling rabbits out of a hat at a sideshow... kind of like

"step right up and see the cloned sheep" ....

..... Oh, jolly nice sheep you got there... Now what?


-laughing at my own jokes, definitely not a good sign- :)
-Jesse-

[Oridian]

Cloning is a scary issue. For good or ill as it has been said, if it is possible to be done( or attempted) then someone is going to find a way to try. Currently scientist are moving cloning projects outside the US in order to get away from governmental complications with the research.

I personally see both sides of the cloning issue and it is a tough one to come to grips with. On one hand I don't like that as this technology grows it will cause a huge market for fetus. Will abourtion clinics start selling the unborn to businesses and researchers, and will that cause some to use pregnacny and a money tool. I am including the parents in this scheme with the businesses.

I am of the opinion that upon conception, and possibly before, that the embryo constitutes a living being/entity. There lies my problem with the situation. I don't think of the embryo as just tissue like a piece of fruit or livestock to be harvested to our own needs. We would be harvesting humans( or human tissue).

On the other hand there are those that could definately benifit from such technologies and genetics and cloning. My best friend is one such case. I love him dearly and always keep him in my thoughts and prayers.

The cloning technology itself has a ways to go. Yes there have been few successful clonings of animals. These survivors are a rare expection. Most attempts have so many bad mutations that they do not survive long even if they were viable in the beginning. Then there is the fact that even the survivors have many complications do to gentitic mutations during the cloning proccess.

I'll shut up now as this has been to long a post already.

[bloodstone20]

a scary thought. IN a few decades, you might be able to have a baby by giving a blood sample to your doctor for you and your hubby. *shudder*

[Andromeda]

Earth is already overpopulated! Now they want to make doubles of people ??
I'm really not sure where I stand on this issue, in some ways I think there might be some advantages to cloning, maybe not people but organs, it could save many lives. You might live longer. But we ARE an overpopulated planet, maybe they should let nature take its coarse.

There are so many "issues" with clonning. Some say "Yes" some say "no." There will probably be a time where human clones are made....but I doubt it will be anytime soon. Who knows what will or can happen ?

Blessings
Andromeda

[Tigerwallah]

I say no to cloning anything. Let's just take care of what we have and stop science for the sake of science.

[Oridian]

i'm not happy with cloning, but for most of us its not a life or death topic. How would we feel if our lives or the lives of loved ones DID depended on cloned tissues. And to my knowledge, organs would/are not be cloned individualy, but as part of an organism, in this case humans.

But would it be acceptable to clone ourselves for tissues needed to prolong our lives, or what if cloned tissues could save the life of one of our children? Tough questions.

[flar7]

They dont have to clone the whole being, they are currently cloning parts of people in the U.S. Skin being the first off the top of my head. But the fetus issue is the problem.

[mol]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
I say no to cloning anything. Let's just take care of what we have and stop science for the sake of science.

Yikes. You will have to elaborate that statement for me Tiger. Please.

[bloodstone20]

joke?

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by mol


Yikes. You will have to elaborate that statement for me Tiger. Please.

I think science has gotten way out of control. Cloning is pointless. It will just turn into another excuse as to how we can allow the goddesses creatures to go extinct. Hey, we can just make some labratory ones later.

I do not want to live in a world created by white labcoat guy. Do you?

[bloodstone20]

now that you put it that way, no.

[slvr_phoenix]

I'd just like to take a moment to point out a few things that may not have been thought much about for everyone to ponder.

* When someone puts so much time, attention, and energy into something, that something takes on a part of that energy. So is a 'clone' 'born' from any less love than any other baby?

* If clones shouldn't exist because of overpopulation, then shouldn't any children not born from two loving parents not exist either? Or should one loving parent be alowed to carry the burden? Or should 'natural' babies always be allowed? Where does one draw a line for the sake of 'overpopulation'? At least clones are brought into the world because people want them. Can the same be said for all 'natural' children?

* Just when does a baby decide to be born? What triggers it? Some unknown or meaningless occurance? (After all, what meaning could it have if babies can be born so premature or late that their life is threatened?) Or could it be that a baby is born when a soul finally merges with the body and thus the baby is ready to be a person? And until that time the soul and the body are not tied together in life or in death?

* If a clone were made just for 'spare parts' imagine not just the life saved by the organs they needed from that clone, but also the lives saved by the other organs taken for organ transplants and the blood taken.

* People have been practicing generic manipulation since the beginning of time. Have humans mated out of pure randomness? Or did they CHOOSE a partner for specific genetic traits?

* All living things have a life force, an energy to them. In fact, all things have an energy to them and energy in them. If this does not constitute a 'soul', then what is it?

* Is a blade of grass any less alive than an ant? Is a clone any less alive than the original? Whether plant, animal, human, or other, is a clone any less than any other life?

* Clones are born too.

In my opinion, clones are an important phase in the evolution of the mind and spirit. Even if cloning humans never becomes legal, it will still take place and it will force us to think about just why or why not it should be legal, and that brings us growth.

So whether legal or not, cloning will still bring a positive result. The only people who do not gain from it are the ones who refuse to think about it.

[bloodstone20]

very well said.

[Tarot Collector]

Originally posted by slvr_phoenix

In my opinion, clones are an important phase in the evolution of the mind and spirit. Even if cloning humans never becomes legal, it will still take place and it will force us to think about just why or why not it should be legal, and that brings us growth.



Thanks slvr_phoenix, I was wondering if anyone would bring this up, and since you did, I guess I'll add a word or two.

Its quite possible that genetic engineering and cloning is the next grand step in human evolution. Only this time a larger brain (or a more complete use of the brain) as well as an enhanced resistance to disease won't take so many millions of years to come about. This sounds pretty cool to me.

But, theres some sinister possibilities....

Less than 70 years ago another group of folks wanted to develop a super-race of humans and quicken the evolution of mankind by first perpetuating, then improving what they considered the best example of humans on the planet. And they tried every technology they could come up with to do it. And they attempted to help their cause by eliminating what they considered the worst examples of humans on the planet. Millions of people died. Ultimately they couldn't succeed.

Could genetic engineering/cloning again lead to some similar eventualities? I think its possible... I think that is the REAL reason the government is limiting the advance of this science.

Politically, the Republicans put the "Fetus" and "abortion" and all those related issues at the front of their battles...
Rebublicans are anti-abortion for the most part.

When Clinton was in the white house (the democrats are generally pro choice, but not all), and yet democrats are also
hesitant, at least, if not absolutely opposed to this genetic manipulation in part and certainly the cloning of humans.

I just think it may be a larger issue than we've posted about yet.

-i'm drawing a blank now-
-Jesse-

[Tigerwallah]

The problem with Science playing god is:

The majority of science benefits only humans. This causes a disproportionate advantage and therefor throws off natures balance. I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly believe that humans have no more right to life than any other of the Earth's creatures.

Humans are very selfish and destructive creatures. You are faced with this new technology and on one hand is immediate gratification and everything that is beneficial to human life. On the other hand is all of the other creatures of the goddess, and the Earth herself. I find it sad that we continue to chose selfish, immediate gratification over what is right. Science continues to look toward colonizing other planets (Mars) because some day this one will no longer be liveable. Fault of the hummingbird and the grey wolf? No.

I recently read "Whale Nation." A book that tells of the history of the whaling industry. There have been countless cases of whalers being saved, during a shipwreck, by the same dolphins that they were slaughtering. It would be beneficial to the dolphin to hold the whalers under the water until they drown, but instead they do the selfless thing, and save the men. The men, in turn, return to work and slaughter dolphins. Was the dolphin stupid or good? Was the man advantageous or evil? You decide.

[Happydog]

1) Using clones as transplant donors would be tricky, because if you cloned the entire human being, as a result, the human would have to be alive for the organs to be viable; which would give the clone rights, since it is a living human being.

2) You can't just clone an organ at this point, in spite of what some people would have you believe. Even if you did, the organ wouldn't be guaranteed to work at all; without the rest of the body to rely upon - and to start it working - it would just be so much meat.

2) Human cloning makes me uncomfortable for several reasons. One is the memory of what the Third Reich tried to do with eugenics. The other reason is that I think it's a misapplication of science. There are so many other things that could be more useful to do, that would help people and help the planet. Human cloning is a waste of time.

3) There is no guarantee at all that human cloning will work. Animal cloning fails 98% of the time. Dolly the Sheep is noteworthy because she is an anomaly; she survived.

[Incendia]

I think that stem cell research has the potential to help many ill people. The thought of possibly eliminating organ shortages, helping paralysis victims, and preventing genetic disease is very appealing. However, I do disagree with "whole" human cloning. I was watching one of those news shows the other day and it was mentioned that there are some people out there who are infertile and want to clone themselves. Can you imagine raising a miniature version of yourself. Oh mini me! :crazy: :P

[slvr_phoenix]

I think overall, I still don't know how I feel about cloning. At the beginning of the technology, it had a high rate of failure. However, since Dolly there have been other cloning projects, and the failure rate has gone down exponentially. No one wants to hear about those though because they're no longer something new and they're far less horrific than the failures that it took to make Dolly. But the failure rate is definately going down. I don't see any reason why cloning won't eventually be perfected to a less-than-one-percent failure rate given enough time and resources. Maybe a decade from now, two at most, if things go at their current rate. Scary thought, isn't it?

Laws won't stop cloning. Laws only apply to the country they were written in. At least one country is bound to accept cloning. And in numerous countries legality is only a state of mind. (Or more accurately, a state of money or power.) Someone will always be working on cloning, somewhere.

Personally, I'd rather see stem cell research and genetic recombination for the purposes of health though. To grow a singular organ or nerve strand or bone. To re-write a flawed genetic structure and then fix the body from the inside. These things have less questionable ethics than to clone an entire person for spare parts. They pose their current problems, such as how to keep an organ alive and make it strong enough so that it can be implanted. These problems however can be solved given enough time and effort. The simplest method is the use of artificial means to keep the organ alive and slowly strengthen it. Other methods though could be implantation into 'lesser' life forms, or even duplicate organs in the person who needs the replacement. And between virus engineering and nanotechnology, genetic restructuring is entirely possible. The answers are there, the only restrictions are time, resources, and effort.

As to whether a cloned person has rights, ultimately that's up to the laws regarding cloning. I believe that they should. To me a clone is just as much a person as anyone else. However, it would benefit cloning businesses if they didn't, and it would make cloning for procreation pointless. So what I believe may not end up as the way things are, because the human farce known as 'morality' might intervene.

I see nothing wrong though with an infertile person cloning themselves. It might seem strange, but a life is a life is a life. DNA is only a tiny fraction of what makes a person who they are, and what makes them a life.

As for people of science 'playing god', it's been a part of humanity since the dawn of time. (Or at least since humanity was a part of it.) Humans don't fit into 'nature'. They have never followed the same rules that dictate 'nature'. Instead of the environment controlling the human population, the humans have controlled the environment to allow them to increase their population. It stands to reason that this behavior in it self indicates that humans never started on Earth to begin with because of this, but that's a whole different topic.

The point though is that humans have been 'playing god' since day one. One could even argue that humans are in their own special way, gods. Humans create. Humans destroy. Humans change the world (or their section of it) to better suit their needs and desires. Did 'god' do any less? Did 'god' do any more? So why should now be any different from the past? Why should humans just now be labelled as 'playing god' when we've been doing it since humans first existed? If anything, humanity should be proud of the limits we are learning to put on ourselves to keep ourselves from destroying too much. As humans have more and more potential to cause permanent harm to the Earth, humans are also becoming more and more aware of the need not to cause permanent harm to the Earth. If anything, humanity is 'playing god' less now than it ever was in the past.

And just as there are 'dark deities' and 'light deities', so are there 'dark' and 'light' people. Good and evil are concepts made up by humans. Morality is a farce we created to make ourselves feel better. The simple fact is humans change things. Some will change things for the 'good'. Some will change things for 'evil'. Nothing will change this from happening. But at least today there are more and more people devoting their lives to making sure that these changes aren't going to do any permanent harm, and devoting their lives to finding ways to heal, restore, and undo past mistakes. It's an evolution of the human spirit.

Genetic manipulation is the key to genetic diversity. Some worry that we will make more and more species extinct or near-extinct, and then our solution will be to clone that species, destroying it's genetic diversity. But a clone is no less of a life. And with subtle changes to the genes, a clone no longer has to be an exact copy of the original. Genetic diversity won't be a problem. Yes, we may end up damaging the world and it's life forms. But we also are working on the means to restore those life forms. One day we could even bring back entirely extinct species if we find a sample of their DNA.

Humans have been 'playing god' for centuries. But it has been a 'god' of destruction. Humanity has slowly evolved away from that. We are learning that destroying the world for our own purposes is merely hurting ourselves. We are becoming aware of more than just ourselves. We now stand at the edge of that age of destruction, and the future holds for us the means to become 'gods' of creation and healing, to undo the damage that we have done in the past. We are finally looking towards making the future a place where 'nature' is important, not a hinderance. We are finally aware that what we do now can have a long-lasting effect on the world. Now seems hardly the proper time to fight for stopping this evolution of the human spirit.

It may be a slow evolutionary process, but it is definately occuring. Humanity will start to undo the damage that our raping of the Earth has caused. Humanity will start to restore 'nature' instead of destroy it. It may be a slow process to convince those who do not want to evolve, and in that time much more damage may be done, but give humanity time and we will come around fully.

And I believe ultimately, humanity will choose not to genetically engineer neosapiens. Life is a circle, and humanity is finally beginning to understand this. All things must die. To make ourselves stronger or eternal is to break the circle of life, is to deny the awakening that humanity is finally coming into. If humanity does engineer neosapiens, we will come to regret doing so. Humanity is finally beginning to see that what we need to improve our life is not an evolution of body, but an evolution of spirit. And no genetic engineering will bring that about.

We are now standing at the center of the see-saw of the human spirit. Some are still weighing down the side of destruction, but more and more are weighing down the side of healing now. Currently we are in a precarious balance between the two sides, but we know where we've been, and most of us don't want to go back, so one day that balance will be tipped in the right direction and then we will undo the damage which we have done. Cloning and genetic engineering are just some of the many tools that will help us undo this damage.

Well, that's my two cents, and a few extra pennies thrown in as well. :)

[Oridian]

I just read in the paper where French and German governments are pushing for the United Nations to "pass a measure seeking a world wide ban on human cloning for reproductive purposes."

They are wanting to base the ban on cloning being an offense "to human dignity".

[slvr_phoenix]

Heh heh.

Why do they even bother?

Besides the fact that the UN almost never accomplishes anything, there's also the fact that the UN doesn't govern the entire world.